Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: douvidl on February 03, 2011, 02:09:57 pm

Title: Printing on Metal
Post by: douvidl on February 03, 2011, 02:09:57 pm
Aside from the metal media available from Booksmart Studio and the metal roll referred to by Dan Berg in an earlier post, does anyone know of another vendor?  Although the Booksmart product is very good, the price is about $13/sheet for a box of ten.  And working with a big roll of metal requires space that I don't have. 
Thanks in advance.
David
Title: Re: Printing on Metal
Post by: Randy Carone on February 03, 2011, 02:21:12 pm
Booksmart metal must be run using your printer's straight feed path, so rolls are out. What printer do you plan to use? I believe Epson is the best, and maybe the only choice, for Booksmart metal. From Booksmart Studio's website:

Our Fine Art Metal can be used with any printer with a straight pass-through print feed, which includes all Epson machines and select HP & Canon models.
Title: Re: Printing on Metal
Post by: John Hollenberg on February 03, 2011, 02:50:34 pm
Quote
believe Epson is the best, and maybe the only choice, for Booksmart metal.

Not true.  Here is a PDF file from Booksmart from 2007 about printing on Booksmart metal with the Canon iPF5000:

http://canonipf.wikispaces.com/file/view/Printing+Metal+on+Canon-1.pdf
Title: Printing on Metal
Post by: Randy Carone on February 03, 2011, 03:02:39 pm
Thanks for the info John. My post does include a quote from Booksmart that states that their metal can be used on "select HP and Canon models".
Title: Re: Printing on Metal
Post by: dgberg on February 03, 2011, 03:12:58 pm
 www.metallurgy4.us.com
They sent me an email that they now have a USA distributor.
Title: Re: Printing on Metal
Post by: Sven W on February 03, 2011, 04:20:55 pm
The absolutely cheapest way to print on metal, is to make the sheets by yourself.
Aluminium sheets coated with InkAid at a fraction of what Booksmart charge you.

/Sven
Title: Re: Printing on Metal
Post by: neile on February 03, 2011, 05:04:21 pm
Dan, have you got any samples from Metallurgy? I'm fascinated that they have it available in rolls.

Neil
Title: Re: Printing on Metal
Post by: dgberg on February 03, 2011, 05:41:04 pm
I have some on the way. Will let you know how it works out.
Title: Re: Printing on Metal
Post by: Steve Kapalko on February 04, 2011, 01:37:03 pm
Although I've been reading for some time, I'm newly registered.  This subject caught my eye and I thought I could contribute the information below.  I attended a Golden demonstration with my wife (she uses Golden products) and the products below were demonstrated.  Although neither of us have yet tried to use them, they appeared promising.  No affiliation other than satisfied customer.

GOLDEN Digital Grounds
GOLDEN Digital Grounds are ink-receptive coatings intended for use with ink-jet printers.  They allow the artist to coat and subsequently print over a large variety of substrates including paper, canvas, metal and acrylic paints, using ordinary computer printers and inks. For more information on GOLDEN Digital Grounds, see the Digital Ground Product Information & Application Sheet (http://www.goldenpaints.com/technicaldata/digigrnd.php) and the Mix More Media (http://www.goldenpaints.com/mixmoremedia/index.php) section of the website.

There are three types of Digital Grounds available:
Digital Ground White (Matte) – A semi-opaque white ground suitable for printing onto a large variety of porous and non-porous surfaces.  The smooth and absorbent surface allows printing inks to dry rapidly, making it an ideal starting product for artists exploring digital printing.
Digital Ground Clear (Gloss) – A clear gloss ground for use on most porous surfaces where clarity is desired to view underlying materials.

Digital Ground for Non Porous Surfaces – A clear gloss ground for coating non-porous surfaces, such as plastic and metal, when clarity is desired.


Title: Re: Printing on Metal
Post by: douvidl on February 04, 2011, 01:49:51 pm
Sven;

How ? What is the process?
David
Title: Re: Printing on Metal
Post by: Sven W on February 04, 2011, 06:37:13 pm
I'm off for the weekend, but I'll give you an answer on Monday.

/Sven
Title: Re: Printing on Metal
Post by: dgberg on February 04, 2011, 06:59:36 pm
Sven;

How ? What is the process?
David

David,
Do not want to step on Sven's response but in the meantime look at my July blog. Pictures and an article on coating and printing metal flashing.
www.bergscanvasgallery.blogspot.com
Title: Re: Printing on Metal
Post by: douvidl on February 04, 2011, 07:45:34 pm
Dan;
Don't you have to abraid the metal before applying the goop? And is Inkaid the only stuff that works?  Lastly the sheet that goes into the machine must be flat.  Given that it comes from a roll, how does on make it flat?
Thanks
David
Title: Re: Printing on Metal
Post by: dgberg on February 05, 2011, 05:17:42 am
The sheet metal I used did not have a protective coating but I still used 0000 steel wool to scuff the surface.
The piece never really gets flat while printing if cut off a roll. When printing with the 7900 or 9900 the curve of the tips go down. The vacumn system pulls it flat for printing. You would never want to put it the other way as a head strike would probably follow. If you look at the print on my blog you still see the curve in it. The next mounting step is what flattens it. Attaching it to a backer like Dibond or gatorboard. I still have not had time to purchase a sheet but my local metal dealer has.028 sheets in 4' x8' and will shear (For a price) into sizes I request. I have seen sheets cut by them and the edges look perfect.
 The other coating on the market besides Inkaid is Dass precoater.
Title: Re: Printing on Metal
Post by: Sven W on February 07, 2011, 10:51:03 am
Sven;

How ? What is the process?
David

Dan's description is similar to our workflow.

1. A printer with a straight paper path
2. Highest possible platen gap
3. Aluminum sheet not over the printers maximum media thickness (Epson PosterBoard)
4. Carefully cleaned sheet with denatured alcohol or methylated spirit.
5. Coated two times with InkAid. Drying between coatings.
6. Printing with PremiumGloss profile
7. Without touching anything, take the sheet very carefully from the printer, let to dry at least 12h.
8. Protective spray, coated 2-3 times.

/Sven
Title: Re: Printing on Metal
Post by: douvidl on February 07, 2011, 11:06:35 am
Sven;
Many thanks
David
Title: Re: Printing on Metal
Post by: douvidl on February 07, 2011, 10:36:26 pm
Sven;
Did you abraid the metal before de-greasing and applying the inkaid?
David
Title: Re: Printing on Metal
Post by: Sven W on February 08, 2011, 06:14:11 am
No.
I think that depends on the kind metal surface you have.
The most important is to get rid of the oil and grease from the metal, so
the InkAid will stick to it.

/Sven
Title: Re: Printing on Metal
Post by: RFPhotography on February 09, 2011, 08:55:11 am
I do the same as Sven and Dan.  I buy sheet aluminum and have it cut down to the size I want.  I've found a metal fabricator in my local area that will source and cut to my sizes.  I've got a stack of 13x19 and 16x24 from two sheets of 20 gauge aluminum.  It's got the plastic protective coating so the top surface is clean.  The cuts are clean so no damaged edges/corners to get caught in the printer.  

I've used DASS (http://www.digitalartstudioseminars.com/DigitalArtStudioSeminars/Store_Canada.html) coating in the past but am switching to InkAid because I can source it locally.  With the DASS coating, I used the Epson PLPP paper setting and profile. 

Metals Plus (http://www.metalsplus.ca/) is the supplier I found for the aluminum and they'll ship outside of Canada.

Cost per sheet is a fraction of what the Booksmart product costs and the metal is substantially heavier which makes for much better handling and much less chance of damage. 
Title: Re: Printing on Metal
Post by: douvidl on February 11, 2011, 03:31:13 pm
Sven;
I am waiting for my metal to dry.  I followed your workflow and so far, no problems.  I did use 0000 steel wool to clean the metal.  Some of the schmutz just wouldn't come of with just the alcohol.  If I use the premium gloss profile, should I use the matt or the photo ink.   

I bought the metal from Metal by the inch, https://metalbytheinch.com/index.html?searchstring=aluminum%20sheet  and spoke with Scott.  Very helpful and anxious to please.

I will continue to post progress.

Other comments more than welcome.  Have a safe weekend.  Down with Mubarek!!
David
Title: Re: Printing on Metal
Post by: Sven W on February 11, 2011, 05:35:24 pm
Sven;
I am waiting for my metal to dry.  I followed your workflow and so far, no problems.  I did use 0000 steel wool to clean the metal.  Some of the schmutz just wouldn't come of with just the alcohol.  If I use the premium gloss profile, should I use the matt or the photo ink.   

I bought the metal from Metal by the inch, https://metalbytheinch.com/index.html?searchstring=aluminum%20sheet  and spoke with Scott.  Very helpful and anxious to please.

I will continue to post progress.

Other comments more than welcome.  Have a safe weekend.  Down with Mubarek!!
David
Mubarak is down and out !
The old rule about Pk for glossy media and Mk for matte, seems to be the answer here too.
I used Pk. And the InkAid's Q&A (http://www.inkaid1.com/faq/b-faq-compatibility/) states:
Q. Which Epson Ultrachrome inks are most compatible with inkAID products?

A. Both matte and photo black Epson Ultrachrome inks work well. With the clear inkAID™ products (Clear Semi-Gloss, Clear Gloss, and Clear Gloss Type II), artists sometimes prefer to use the photo black ink.


/Sven
Title: Re: Printing on Metal
Post by: douvidl on February 12, 2011, 06:09:06 pm
Sven;
It worked!!! Joy.
The image came out great.  I just need to remember that the metal will tend to dull the colors.  Hence I suspect tht saturation rather than perceptual print setting is the way to go.  I also observe that whites or lights don't do well and that deep, rich colors do splendidly.
thanks for the help.
David
Title: Re: Printing on Metal
Post by: RFPhotography on February 12, 2011, 06:42:57 pm
David, I'd strongly advise against using Saturation as your rendering intent.  It can do very odd things.

Keep in mind that while the colours may look a bit muted now, you still need to overcoat with some form of protectant.  Many of these will work to enhance colours and overall impact of the image.  Wait till you've finished coating the image to see how colours end up.
Title: Re: Printing on Metal
Post by: Sven W on February 13, 2011, 11:42:40 am
Sven;
It worked!!! Joy.
The image came out great.  I just need to remember that the metal will tend to dull the colors.  Hence I suspect tht saturation rather than perceptual print setting is the way to go.  I also observe that whites or lights don't do well and that deep, rich colors do splendidly.
thanks for the help.
David

Nice !
I think color printed on metal is.....ugly. IMHO. I prefer b&w. I saw some beautiful b&w portraits printed on copper.
Almost like a daguerreotype !
You have to do some tests for brightness & contrast. Esp. contrast, think newspaper printing, and increase quite a lot.

/Sven
Title: Re: Printing on Metal
Post by: douvidl on February 13, 2011, 11:20:03 pm
I did print a black and white and you are correct, the effect is striking.  I did print another color, but this time, one with deep blue, sky blue etc.  but no oranges  or red and the effect is mucho wonderful!!!
The only question is how to frame the suckers.
BTW, Booksmart Studio has posted a profile to go with their metal papers.  I did use their profile on the last two prints and it was considerably better than the glossy from Epson.
David
Title: Re: Printing on Metal
Post by: neile on February 14, 2011, 12:00:52 am
Why frame them at all? Go another route! Perhaps drill a hole in each corner and mount them to the wall using stainless steel screws and standoffs?

Neil
Title: Re: Printing on Metal
Post by: Sven W on February 14, 2011, 06:34:05 am
The only question is how to frame the suckers.
David

A small alu-frame glued on the back is quite nifty. (See attached image)
Gives the much appreciated "floating" effect.
And must be done after printing  ;D

/Sven
Title: Re: Printing on Metal
Post by: RFPhotography on February 14, 2011, 07:22:09 am
I've done the same as Sven but with wood.  It does make a nice presentation.  Care has to be taken with the corners and edges with this type of approach.

A metal frame also works well.  1 1/2 to 2" flat profile, matte finish, grey or black.  Back the print with a piece of foamcore or gator board.
Title: Re: Printing on Metal
Post by: Damir on February 20, 2011, 09:01:27 pm
Well, I just finished my firs experiments with printing on metal. I did it on used plates for offset printing. Printer is HP Pro B9180.

I got some really fascinating prints, also some lousy prints. For now my greatest problem is black ink in deep shadows of black and white printing. Best results are color prints made from pictures in medium and high tonality. High key photos are delicate and beautiful.

I will try to make better B&W - any advice about type of paper to use as starting point for printing?
Title: Re: Printing on Metal
Post by: douvidl on February 20, 2011, 11:10:03 pm
What are high key  or high tonality photos?
David
Title: Re: Printing on Metal
Post by: Damir on February 21, 2011, 05:42:02 am
Photos in which dominate light tones are high key photos.
Title: Re: Printing on Metal
Post by: douvidl on February 24, 2011, 02:26:33 pm
Sven;
Another question.  I notice that the print/film on the metal seems to be separating from the metal.  I 'm not sure what I've done wrong or not done at all.  I did not use a varnish coat as a final coat.  I did use the Clear Jet coating, but not the varnish. 
Any thoughts or suggestions?
David
Title: Re: Printing on Metal
Post by: douvidl on February 24, 2011, 02:27:49 pm
Dan; I just posted this note to Sven. 
I would appreciate your input.
Thanks
David

Sven;
Another question.  I notice that the print/film on the metal seems to be separating from the metal.  I 'm not sure what I've done wrong or not done at all.  I did not use a varnish coat as a final coat.  I did use the Clear Jet coating, but not the varnish.
Any thoughts or suggestions?
David
Title: Re: Printing on Metal
Post by: dgberg on February 24, 2011, 03:52:46 pm
David,
You put a topcoat of solvent based clearjet on your print more then likely before the ink was dry. That ink needs to dry a minimum of 24 hours before any type of top coating. In some of my earlier tests I sprayed the topcoat after about 6 hours. Quite a mess,the ink lifted right off the metal. All is not lost. Take the metal into a sink and rinse all the ink and receptor coat off. Dry and then recoat with Inkaid or Dass. Reprint and let dry at least 24 hours to make sure all of the glycol has completely dried. Mist a light coat of the Clearstar 2000 and let dry. It will make for a nice sealer coat. Now your ready to spray 2 nice topcoats and you should be good.
Title: Re: Printing on Metal
Post by: douvidl on February 24, 2011, 04:09:10 pm
Fascinating!!.  I left them to dry overnight. My guess about 16 hours.
Thanks for the help.
David
Title: Re: Printing on Metal
Post by: Sven W on February 24, 2011, 04:58:44 pm
As Dan's tip; at least 24h drying. I would wait even two days.
It's not like a Kodak Picture Kiosk, working with metal printing :D

/Sven
Title: Re: Printing on Metal
Post by: douvidl on February 24, 2011, 05:16:21 pm
Dan;
I use ClearJet AFR Coating after the ink dries.  Is there something else.  If so, could you tell me what the label says.
Much appreciated.
David
Title: Re: Printing on Metal
Post by: douvidl on February 24, 2011, 06:04:28 pm
Sven;
Message received!!  But what coatings or sealer do you use after the metal dries for two day?
David
Title: Re: Printing on Metal
Post by: ednazarko on March 04, 2011, 10:05:03 am
Just ran across this here.  I've printed on metal for several years - aluminum, stainless steel, and copper - using InkAid for the coating.  Metal purchased from a supply house has been a lot easier for me than working with flashing.  I found a local place that supplies metal to roofers and light manufacturers.  They'll cut to specification, and that means you can select a big sheet of exactly the surface type and thickness you want, specify the sizes you want cut out of the sheet, and go home happy with metal plates that cost a fraction of buying pre-coated metal.  The one problem with this approach is that the metal distributors are not used to people wanting perfect, unscratched, unmarred surfaces - they assume if that matters, you'll be buffing and surfacing yourself, and that's a total pain in the posterior, especially with stainless steel.  Metal polishing is an acquired skill.  By doing a lot of begging and whining  ;) I've been able to get the shop to be more careful, and now I get mostly perfect surfaces with a few pieces marred, and I use those pieces for experiments in texturing the metal before coating - swirls or texturing that follows the shapes of the image I'll be printing later.

There are bonuses for finding a local metal distributor to buy from.  They have a lot of scrap pieces from other orders that are pretty good sized, although not to a specific perfect size, and if you're fine with that, they'll usually GIVE those pieces to you, or sell them for what a metal recycler would pay.  About half of what I print on now is scrap - I put a standard image size on the nonstandard size pieces, even in some cases on geometrically odd pieces which can be really lovely.  The other bonus is, odds are they've never had an artist customer.  The local shop was fascinated at what I told them I was doing, and when I brought in some examples of printed images, they bought two to hang in their offices.  I've since given them a couple more to display, and the result has been some sales of my images on metal to their customers.

I've also worked on aluminum flashing purchased at the home improvement stores, initially because I had some large panoramas I wanted to try on metal.  (14x144 inches.)  While both purchased metal sheets and flashing require pretty finicky cleaning - I use TSP if the surface is really slick, metal cleaners and solid sponges at minimum - the flashing seems to be the trickiest to prep.  I wish I knew why, but it just is.

When I coat with InkAid, I do two or three coats usually, with 24 hours of drying time. I use brushes since I don't have an industrial sprayer. My biggest issue is getting that many coats on huge surfaces over several days without accidentally getting a stray piece of dog hair or dust in the surface.  I have a room in the house now that I have sealed, that I use for coating, which helps a lot.  After printing, I wait at least 24 hours, then coat with a couple layers of one of the spray coatings, the nasty smelling varnish types.  I tried NOT doing that, and the surfaces were incredibly touchy.  If I spray coat, they're not much more touchy than some of the Hahnemuhle papers.

Some day I am going to try the pre-coated metal options, because for work I sell, the extra cost is well covered by the price of the prints I sell, and I'm a photographer, not a print surface maker.  I'd still use my own coated surfaces for proofing and tweaking prints, but once I had what I wanted, I can wash off the metal, re-coat, and re-use for proofing again.
Title: Re: Printing on Metal
Post by: douvidl on March 04, 2011, 10:16:18 am
Ednazarko;
Thanks for the report.  I 've tried to find a metal supple house near me to no avail.  As I live in a small house with little space, precut sheets are critical.  But as you say, the surface isn't perfect and they generally require work with steel wool.  I  worked with aluminum with success and want to try copper, but the price is just prohibitive.
thanks again.
David
Title: Re: Printing on Metal
Post by: plui on March 09, 2011, 07:17:14 pm
The InkAid supplier in Canada (vistek) has a warning note regarding gum buildup on a printer's guide rollers... Has this been a problem with anyone? Im using an epson 11880 and would love to start printing on aluminum sheets as has been described here but am concerned about this gumminess and also whether or not a larger plate (24x36) of .050" (1.3mm) will be too heavy and fall through the straight path and onto the floor. Has anyone tried printing on the thicker sheets of .050" or .064"? or is printing on the thinner material (then mounting) more practical?  btw cost I've found for 4x8 feet of .050" untreated uluminum is $140 cdn.
Title: Re: Printing on Metal
Post by: dgberg on March 09, 2011, 10:00:51 pm
Check your max thickness on the 11880 it may be a 1.5 mil max like my smaller Epsons.
Have had no issues with the Inkaid but have only printed several dozen. I got sheets of.028 aluminum cut into photo sizes and have 2,3 and 4mm Dibond I will be laminating prints to. The.028is just too thin without a backer. I also adhesive a standout wood frame on the dibond backer so the extra thickness is needed.
If you can print on the thicker material you may not need a backer.
Title: Re: Printing on Metal
Post by: ednazarko on March 11, 2011, 01:06:05 pm
Gum buildup?  Haven't had a problem, and there were some weeks when I'd run 20 or 30 prints.  I can't figure how that would happen unless the coating wasn't totally dry when the print was run.
Title: Re: Printing on Metal
Post by: orchidblooms on December 14, 2012, 07:24:06 pm
Check your max thickness on the 11880 it may be a 1.5 mil max like my smaller Epsons.
Have had no issues with the Inkaid but have only printed several dozen. I got sheets of.028 aluminum cut into photo sizes and have 2,3 and 4mm Dibond I will be laminating prints to. The.028is just too thin without a backer. I also adhesive a standout wood frame on the dibond backer so the extra thickness is needed.
If you can print on the thicker material you may not need a backer.

dan - i am getting closer to running some aluminum  thru my epson 4900...

if you can please...  how do you 'laminate' the printed aluminum to the 4mm diabond?

thank you

phil
Title: Re: Printing on Metal
Post by: dgberg on December 14, 2012, 11:51:21 pm
Phil,
Roll laminator with Seals print mount ultra.
Works super on the Booksmart metal. Also works on custom metal that we had cut locally.
It just has to be flat with no crimped or slightly rolled edges.
If you have any like that I would not run them through the printer and risk a head strike.
Don't forget to set your platen to it's widest,otherwise you risk that dreaded head strike you hear mentioned so often.

I believe this image may have been put up some time ago so my apologies ahead of time.
For those new folks interested in trying something new.
Locally purchased stainless steel.
This sample is 16" x 20"

The process.
Stainless primed with one coat of Krylon primer.
Scuff sanded with 600 grit trimite paper.
2 topcoats of Krylon metallic copper. (The closest color I found to accent the rust.)
2 coats with foam brush of Ink Aid receptive coating. Needs to dry at least overnight.)
Front flat path feed on Epson 3800.
Let dry 2 to 3 days depending on how much black ink is in the image.
Prepare 16" x 20" multiply backing board.
Sand and topcoat edges and back with 2 coats catalized conversion varnish.
Apply Print Mount Ultra 2 sided adhesive with roll laminator.
Lastly peel back liner and apply metal print to multiply panel,through laminator.
Has to be perfectly aligned as it cannot be trimmed if your off abit.
I pull the liner off and lay the metal on the multiply making sure the edges are perfectly aligned. Burnish it down with my gloved hand then run it through the laminator.
On this image I have not put any protective coating over the print.
Just really like the natural finish and it gives me a chance to see how it holds up without a coating.
Flip it over and screw on the aluminum hanging channel.

The second photo of same image B@W on metallic paper with gloss vinyl over the print only. Centered and attached to brushed stainless dibond with 3M PMA.
This has the aluminum 3mm edge moulding to set off the sides of the dibond. Not the full frame like another I have shown on another thread.

These all look really great but the TIME required just makes them too expensive to sell,at least here in se Pennsylvania.