... Macs are overpriced and people who buy them do so based on an emotional need.Really? And what emotional need was it that caused me to swich from a PC to a Linux box and then to a Mac? Maybe it was the need to be free of the emotion called 'computer rage' that led me to seek something other that crappy Dell PC I had, but that doesn't inevitably lead to a Mac, so you must mean some other emotional need. As a psychologist I'm really intrigued by your insight into the affective requirements of this group of computer users. Do share. Unless you're talking bollocks of course.
same questions about laptops. i am thinking about to switch back from mac to pc, . . .
Macs are overpriced and people who buy them do so based on an emotional need.- My Commodore64 would argue otherwise
You'll get a better machine, better components, better performance and a better OS for a lot less money with a PC than you will get with a MAC. That is just a plain and simple fact, . . .- quaint subjective quality assesment. Simple facts for complex answers. Both OS have their pro/con balance. I've taken apart SGI, Ogivar, Commodore, Atari, and others. I can have that discussion.
Macs are niche products for a reason and the Iphone will probably follow the same path. Apple's (Steve Jobs) arrogance almost bankrupt Apple once before and had it not been for many including Microsoft bailing them out, they wouldn't be here today! Will it happen again? Only time can tell, but they seem to be making many of the same mistakes.- Personalities? Please tell me about Steve Ballmer, William 'Bill' Gates vs. Gary Kildall [of CP/M fame]
"I've taken apart SGI, Ogivar, Commodore, Atari, and others."
And this related to MAC vs. PC exactly how?
"Both OS have their pro/con balance."
I've always been curious about that, what is the Pro/Con balance between MAC/Windows? As I stated above there's nothing I can't do on my Windows machine that I can do on my MAC, but the MAC can't handle, CAD, Softplan, ArchiCad, etc. as well as many other programs.
"Having assembled video editing stations and graphics workstations since the late nineties, I almost exclusively use Apple as the core of the workstation. Make of that what you will, though I tend towards being atheist towards the clients' use of operating system [and accompanying choices]."- i use Mac Pros. Many video workstations have dedicated video cards for video compression/decompression, or Fibre Channel cards, or other hardware that is not standard issue from computer manufacturers. Until recently, true broadcast quality in real time [on a computer] required a dedicated video card, akin to the [now old, at the time supercool] Targa 2000 Pro or Blackmagic Design HDLink [for SDI] in mission critical setups. In this case, the mission is to edit a daily show like a news show or edit a graphics heavy 30 minute video. The station fails, no show, no money [or a loss of a client]. Workstations usually cost about $20,000 turnkey
Explain? Obviously Apple isn't in the workstation business, so what do you use to construct an Apple workstation? Is that legal?
I have been using Crucial the longest and can't remember ever replacing a bad stick. I use Seagate Cheetah 15K SCSI hard drives, still to this day, I do agree ALL hard drives will fail, but I can honestly say I have never had a SCSI hard drive fail.- Yes, we agree about Crucial and Seagate [SCSI]. I have had Seagate [SCSI] drives fail, but they let you know they're failing, usually by making strange, unusual noise [for a Seagate drive]. That has, to date, always given me time to get to the clients' machine and run one last full backup.
And go to Apple's website spec out a similar machine and watch your eyes pop out! Well, actually you can't spec a similar machine because Apple doesn't offer SCSI or high end video cards.- That's what assembling a workstation involves, among other things. That's my job: build a reliable, rock solid, highly automated, fast [for a while] graphics station.
"Personalities? Please tell me about Steve Ballmer, William 'Bill' Gates vs. Gary Kildall [of CP/M fame]- Quaint. Microsoft 'copied' [many say 'stole'] CP/M to sell to IBM. Find out what QD-DOS stands for.
- QD-DOS"
Relevance? All three good thinkers with Bill Gates the better businessman than Gary Kildall and also luckier. Should we now discuss John D. Rockefeller? ::)
Your first problem is you switched to a Linux box, why?'Cos I'd had enough of crappy Win95. So Linux was a logical move. When I came to replace the computer I got an iMac cheap (less than the comparable Dell machine), and ran that as a dual boot Mac OS9 & Linux box.
... Linux is a great OS for certain tasks, but it's not as user friendly as Windows or Mac.Which is why, when Mac OSX came out, I switched to that, & have stuck with it. It was far, far superior to the alternatives.
... Your 2nd problem is you bought a Dell, which are not good machines, so I could expect a poor user experience from a Dell and have repaired many of them myself. It could lead to a MAC if one didn't understand that it wasn't the OS but rather the hardware or a combination of the hardware and software not playing well together ...Well, the Mac was clearly a more capable & better built machine, but it was Win95 that caused me the problems, not the Dell per se
... If you are a psychologist then you should be aware that people DO make emotional purchases ...Yes, but your assertion was that this was THE reason people buy a Mac. I'm still waiting for some evidence
... there's no rational reason to buy a MAC ...Really? Isn't this argument from incredulity? Just because you can't imagine a rational reason why you would do so, there is no rational reason? Faulty logic. My reasons were rational, and remain so. You're asserting that purchasing decisions concerning Macs are emotional ones, and so far, blind assertion is all we've got
... or it can be a case of "Ignorance is Bliss" but once you know what a MAC is and have used one, why on earth would you ever buy another? ...How about because it works for me? How about I use a Windows machine at work & find it less user-friendly than my Mac? How about I like the reliability of my Mac? How about the software investment? How about ... these aren't emotional reasons?
... As I have stated so many times before, a PC built with good quality components will out perform, out last, do more and cost less than a MAC, therefore MACs are a waste of money.Blind assertion. Repeating it doesn't make it so. Maybe you could back it up with some data? Until then, what can be asserted without evidence can be rejected without evidence.
... I'm not insulting those who buy MACs, we ALL make emotional purchases, myself included. Whether it be a Ferrari or certain Mercedes, a Patek Philippe, diamond / gem / gold jewelry, a Goldmund Reference II turntable, etc. they are all emotional purchases.Well your blathering comes across as pretty insulting. Mac users buy based on emotional need (groundless assertion), Mac users don't make rational purchasing decisions (another groundless assertion), and so on.
... I can always tell if a person purchased an item based upon an emotional need or a rational analytical thought process.Wow! Clever you. And how do you manage this amazing parlour trick?
I would challenge the statement that APPLE is more expensive, a previous poster stated he paid 6,500 for a High end PC system and that the Apple equivilent was 12,000. Sry - no way they were the same spec .
Pascal and Bill thanks for proving my point!!!
Er, the point I took issue with was the nonsense statement that all Mac purchases are emotional decisions. I haven't proved your point at all.
OP - Your going to switch back to PC because you dont like Apples politics ?
That is ridiculous - I am amazed that would be even a remote consideration .......
What about wanting a machine that actually works and is stable ? I run several MACs the Oldest being 10 years old....all run flawlessly and always have. I also have Dell Laptops that are absolute junk after 1-2 years of service - never again !
If that is your stand what about Microsoft "politics" of releasing buggy Junk since windows 3.0 ...remember what a success Vista was ?
There's no doubt people also buy based upon past experience and if you have been using MACs for 5-10-15-20 years and have a good user experience I can understand buying another, but that's truly an emotional decision.While much of what you say may be correct, this sentence is pure drivel. In the circumstances you describe, buying another Mac (and it's Mac, incidentally, not MAC: it's an abbreviation, not an acronym) is an entirely rational decision, based on experience and not on emotion.
Gemmtech ,Dennis,
what is your take on Vista ? That was the prior OS to Windows 7 - I dont have experience with Win 7 so it may be better however, Vista was a very recent and REAL trainwreck of an OS so you dont have to go back to WIN 95 to find an unstable OS from microsoft.
You should visit some Photo studios in NYC & LA - 95% Mac. I use a Mac because Microsoft continued to screw me with unreliable OS offerings until I had to switch to another platform. Glad they got it right with WIN 7,but they ran out of chances with my business....I am a photographer not an I.T. guy.
Just real world experience in my business.
D
I mean Rainer wanted some general advice and not a war between Mac and windows users ;)
“- Your Mileage Varies from mine.”- I've used computer since the TRS-80. I wrote my own word processor because I could not get Paperclip, a very good Commodore64 word processor. I've used ANVIL 5000 when it was popular, which was before AutoCAD was widespread. [Where I worked at the time,] we assembled a MoviePak system on a Quadra 950 when it was the cat's meow. I've used Photoshop since version 1 [came with an Abaton 300 scanner], Premiere since version 2 [bought with the MoviePak], Illustrator since version '88. I've been around computers for a while.
I just wonder how miles you have driven?
You truly don’t understand? It’s quite simple, explain to me what a MAC can do that a PC can’t. Show me a software package ported to a MAC that there is no PC alternative, IOW as I stated above Aperture is a very poor example because obviously there are better programs out there for a PC. Forget 35mm and MF, it’s a lousy analogy.
I can tell you have NEVER touched Auto-Cad because nobody would buy it based upon an emotional need unless you like to torture yourself! Just kidding, but it’s very powerful software with a steep learning curve. As far as what other CAD software packages can do, well all the good ones are based upon the Auto-Cad engine!!- Spoken like a true zealot. I can tell you are 'passionate' about your AutoCAD. {sarcasm}
Yes, you very stupidly went there with more idiotic statements. I can tell you have NEVER touched Auto-Cad because nobody would buy it based upon an emotional need unless you like to torture yourself! Just kidding, but it’s very powerful software with a steep learning curve. As far as what other CAD software packages can do, well all the good ones are based upon the Auto-Cad engine!!- I could say the same for Maya, Soft3D, ElectricImage, Renderman, Final Cut, Logic and many more: they all require a big investment in time and dedication to be fully used to their limits.
beeing angry about the more and more enclosing politics of apple, so first time i consider to change to pc. ( even with iphone/ipad. )
Macs tend to be run by "creatives" and Windows by "conformists".
So, if you have to ask the question which platform to use, you really need to ask yourself the question, why are you even asking the question...get the Mac!Perfectly put.
If you want to think of the ultimate difference between Mac vs PC, current Macs CAN run Windows (if you really need to) but "PC boxes" will NEVER be able to run Mac OS's.
Ultimately, that tells you something about the fundamentals...
Now, to the bottleneck!! Drums please!!! its your hard drives!!! Single drive systems are a thing of the past, it is preferred to have a single disk for you Operating system and your applications, then a separate disk for your Data/images. This would be a minimum configuration, the bare minimum!!!!
Today, if I were to build a minimum configuration of hard drives, I would do the following (for Digital Darkroom PC/MAC)
1 x SSD drive for OS and APPs
1 x SSD drive for Scratch/temp/page-file, this can be a smaller disk then the OS, but I would buy two of the same disks (I will tell you why later)
2 x mechanical hard drives for DATA, and I would make a RAID-1 (Mirror) for this, now I would recommend Enterprise grade hard drives here! Such as Western Digital RE-4, Seagate Constellation, or any SAS disks
This will give you a fast OS/APPs it will load your applications quick, if in Photoshop, the scratch disk will be quick. You data will not be as quick, but it will have redundancy and though not a backup solution, its the next best thing. Obviously one should have a backup solution separately.
PPS: Schewe!!!! though not officially supported :'(, but it has been done, running OSX on a PC :-) ....Nothing like running OSX with 24 cores at 4+Ghz!!! ::) ;D
Anybody who says a Mac doesn't break down or crash, I'm sorry, since 2006 I don't believe you!!!
If you are having nothing but issues with a Windows 7 machine and your Mac never crashes or breaks down you might have munchausen by proxy, the computer version of the disease ;)
I can't believe I am so unlucky that every Mac I own has broken down and or crashed.Translation: My experience trumps all other experience by anyone, ever!
I do have one XP machine with about 40 beta programs on it and I just leave it running, reboot it about once every 3 months, I don't use it much anymore because I can't believe it's still running, it hasn't crashed in several years.Translation: I have a computer that runs XP with beta programs/ software(s) and I am so amazed it does not crash I keep it running and reboot it and point at it and am amazed it does not crash and I can't believe it. I can't believe it. A stable, reliable XP computer. I have one. Amazing.
Macs crash and they break down and aside from a Mac Pro they are a PITA to service and repair, they are my biggest headaches.Translation: Apple machine, made to be appliances and not easily serviceable/ expandable, are not easily serviceable/ expandable, apart for the machine that is made to be easily serviceable/ expandable/ upgradable, the MacPro. Apple machines are not as easily customizable as by CUSTOM built machines. Apple bad.
Apple's global market share (I believe there are creative people all over the world) is probably less than 5%, if we have 1000 computer users, then 50 of those are using Mac and roughly 90% +/- (900 people) use Windows and then we have Linux etc. If ALL Mac users are to be termed "creatives" that gives you a total of 50 people and if just 10% of those using a PC are creative that gives us 90, so it would seem that a lot more creative people are using a PC. I highly doubt (actually I'm 100% positive) that every Mac user is what I would qualify as creative! The fact is, more creative types are using a PC and it's not even close. There was a time that Apple owned the "Desktop Publishing" arena and that just isn't the case anymore. I can't remember, but wasn't Photoshop originally a Mac only application? I know that most kitchen design software was almost all Mac and now I don't know what is ported to a Mac, all the designers I know use PCs. I've been designing houses for many years and I use a PC.
What I'd like to see Jeff, is you and Michael doing a tutorial using a PC using Windows 7 ;)
That in itself does not make one a zealot, I was referring to your other statements, maybe you were just being insidious or facetious?
Seriously, if app availability isn't an issue (such as using Adobe software), which platform would YOU prefer to boot in?For me, it's whichever one I'm more familiar with. ;)
This was just posted today, it kind of says most if not all the reasons why a PC is a much better value and overall purchase.
"I am not saying Gemmtech has no valid points in his/ her posts. I'm alluding to the re-occuring theme that your personal/ professional/ IT experience SUPERCEDES all other."- I have NEVER stated that Apple computer do not crash. It was not my intention if I did.
If I have valid points then don't post a childish response. Anybody who has a large enough sample size can NOT say that Apples don't crash and they don't break down. You can't deny the math.
"If you want to think of the ultimate difference between Mac vs PC, current Macs CAN run Windows (if you really need to) but "PC boxes" will NEVER be able to run Mac OS's."- I agree with "Gemmtech", "tived" and "Farmer": you CAN run OS X in non- Apple hardware, though it is not supported and you do have to choose your hardware carefully [because of the drivers]. The recent example: the Dell Mini 9, which can be turned into a very interesting small portable.
For Pascalf's benefit, I know this personally to be false.
Reality.- I don't know what that means, or what it says.
At work we have 500 plus PCs and less than 20 Macs. We have a nice big IT department, all PC trained. The Macs are all 10.6 and of course the PCs are all Windows XP. Says it all doesn't it.
Cheers,
I believe ALL hard drives will and do fail, however I haven't yet experienced a SCSI hard drive failure in 12 years and with my sample size I'd say that SCSI HD are much more reliable than IDE or SATA and again the math doesn't lie.- in my experience [similar to "Gemmtech"], SCSI drive are much more reliable that IDE/ SATA
Every company that I have visited that use Macs, they have an IT department and Apple has the "genius" bar, if Macs never break down or crash why have them?- The "Genius Bar" is also there to be a resource for questions that the usual floor personnel cannot answer, like "what are the speed improvements between Core 2 Duo and i5?" as it pertains to a 17" MacBook. I'll spare you what I was told, though it did remind me what Apple considers 'important' for their MacBook Pro line
Pascalf,- old enough to have greying hair
What is your age?
And, how does a Mac user ever get to know if a Mac is reliable over the long haul?- for me, by using 'a Mac' over the long haul
Personally, I still miss my Amigas, which were amazing and saw me leave Apple at the time. They're coming back, sort of, and I can't wait :-)- Amigas did usher the age of affordable video editing and accessible 3D [with Newtek Video Toaster and Lightwave 3D]
I mean, they think IE is good? Really?
Pascalf, you certainly missed a lot of what I wrote. Numbers are numbers and the math just doesn't lie, people do, or people embellish their experience.- provide actual, verifiable numbers.
I don't mean to minimize your field, but seriously, it's not what most would consider "mission critical". If you have a crash during a presentation for an audience, they'll live, if you know what I mean.- I said "critical path": as in, the next step does not occur without this critical render/ graphic element being done.
"First, I don't mind ANY operating system if it is perceived by the customer/ user to be:- if the client want a Windows, Linux or OS X computer, that is what they get.
- stable,
- reliable,
- consistent in its' use."
Does this really make any sense If my customer perceives a product as reliable and I know it's very unreliable I would mind and I would advise him/her not to use it.
So, when you state that- I'll state this again:
Pascal states
"always based my workstations on OS X based hardware"
I tend to doubt you have enough knowledge to form a basis for your opinion, get my point?
LOL, You are joking right? So, you call or go online, make an appointment to go to the "Genius Bar", carry in your computer to ask them " what are the speed improvements between Core 2 Duo and i5?" as it pertains to a 17" MacBook " That's funny, that's really funny. I have seen a person or two ask questions, but the overwhelming majority have their hardware with them.- No appointment. I walk into an Apple store, talk to 'Apple people'. They think an 'Apple Genius' can better answer my question, I get referred to such 'Genius'.
"Not really, the article is just parroting the typical price, more software, build it yourself and "games" arguments that are typical of the PC Weenie magazine...I mean, they think IE is good? Really?"
Not really, the article is just parroting the typical price, more software, build it yourself and "games" arguments that are typical of the PC Weenie magazine...I mean, they think IE is good? Really?- not mine
The Apple marketing machine is phenomenal, as I said even when they were making lousy products (A well known fact) I never heard anything other than "Apples are much better than PCs, they never crash and are .........................."- you state: "I never heard anything other than "Apples are, . . ."
Numbers are numbers and the math just doesn't lie, people do, or people embellish their experience.- you state: "Numbers are numbers and the math just doesn't lie, people do, or people embellish their experience."
Pascalf and other Mac users, I'm curious if your experiences regarding the following match or are similar to mine?
Pre Windows 7 and SSDs
1. Mac OS boots a hell of a lot faster than Windows. Average boot time less than 30 seconds
2. Mac OS is better integrated for IPods, IPhones, IPads and Quick Time.
3. It is easier and faster to install and uninstall programs using the Mac OS. (the caveat, you have to know how)
4. Macs tend NOT to use the latest and greatest hardware components.
5. Mac OS shuts down a lot quicker than Windows. Average time, less than 3 seconds
6. Mac OS awakens from "sleep" (hibernation) a lot quicker than Windows.
7. Mac users prefer non-glossy monitors and laptop screens.
8. The IMac is the nicest looking all in one computer.
9. The MBP doen't have integrated numeric keyboard and this is unimportant to a Mac user?
10. You can't get a BluRay player installed from Apple and that is unimportant to a Mac user?
It is amazing how much we agree with each other; and then you get pugnacious and turn it into an OS war whereas I'm OS agnostic.- I have repeatedly stated that everyones' experience is their own, and that peoples' experience is not easily transferable to others if it is not similar.
I can purchase and or build a Windows based PC for a lot less money than a comparable Mac, the PC will have better components, it'll be more reliable and stable.- my issues [with your opinions] have always been about your claim to better reliability and stability compared to any other operating system.
I know that Macs break down and the OS crashes as do PCs and Windows.- my experience forms my opinion
I totally agree, that's why I have said 1000x I'm OS agnostic, my issue with Macs were the cost of the hardware for what you get!- my issue [with your opinion] is NOT COST
But isn't that idiotic (no offense) If in 2005 I had stated "Windows based PCs are much more stable, reliable and better built than Macs" wouldn't that be an idiotic statement if I had no experience with Macs? You have said in a couple sentences and I'll post them again,- most of my clients are former Windows users
"I almost exclusively use Apple as the core of the workstation"
"seeing that I have always based my workstations on OS X based hardware."
So how does one claim how much more stable a Mac is than a Windows machine?
And yes, I will listen to somebody with a vast amount of experience.- I agree
Macs are overpriced and people who buy them do so based on an emotional need. I will probably NEVER buy another MAC because there's no need to.that is not similar to my experience, or anyone I [personally] know.
"For me, it's Mac OS X. Does that make me a zealot? I'm not sure it does..."- according to "Gemmtech", everyones' opinion which does not match the Gemmtech opinion cannot be accurate, and is based on things other that their user experience.
That in itself does not make one a zealot, I was referring to your other statements, maybe you were just being insidious or facetious?
You are stating the obvious! ;D My experience is valid to a lot more people than just me.- everyone who respects you will agree
I never said MAC users don't make rational purchasing decisions, I said that today in 2011, there's no rational reason to buy a MAC. Again, this shouldn't be insulting to anybody.- you should not be insulted if anyone thinks Apple products work well for them.
Maybe I can end it very succinctly...
A closet MSFT fan, eh, Schewe? ;p
BTW, I sent you a couple of emails - don't know how often you check your PG email.
Fan? Not so much but no choice...ya gotta have Word if you write books for pub. Publishers don't really accept manuscripts in Pages yet (a lot of writers are on Mac and editors on Windows–wonder that that means?)
Only a couple of times per hour but I've been dealing with a LOT of emails ya know? And...your screen name and email address don't match so I didn't catch it. I have now responded...
Jeff, Matte or gloss screen for color accuracy and why?
I doubt most people use 10% of the features in MS Office, sort of like their brains! 8)If your brain is big enough, 10% is all you need.
which are the best pc workstations at the moment and how they work compared to the 12 core macs.
same questions about laptops. i am thinking about to switch back from mac to pc, beeing angry about the more and more enclosing politics of apple, so first time i consider to change to pc. ( even with iphone/ipad. )
. . . , I would suggest:
- stay away from Dell, particularly for portables/ laptops. , . . .
- do consider the higher end Toshiba and the higher end Sony Vaio: well built, wise decisions about ports and supported standards, superb compatibility, very nice displays [with quite decent colour, though avoid the gloss if you can], and very good reliability. Ages very well, these machines are known to give MacBooks a run for their money, and generally cost slightly less, people tend to keep them around like Apple users keep their older portables: they pass them on to their children/ spouse for a few more years of decent use. And the video card compatibility means great ease in using a good external monitor, compared to lesser brands.
What's wrong with a friendly debate?
I'm trying to stay within the 50 words, it's very difficult. 26 here!
Actually, I know (and I've seen it) but I promised I wouldn't even HINT that I knew somebody who had done it and what he/she/it was using it for :~)
The real interesting time was the period where somebody was offering a bounty on the first successful boot of a Mac OSX on a Win box...remember? It was just before Apple announce a beta of Bootcamp. I still wonder if the bounty wasn't being offered by a cutout for Apple. Sure caused a stir and then boom, Apple had Bootcamp :~)
And I agree, Windows 7 sucks less...I also agree that to get a good workstation for digital imaging, you must address all three phases of performance tuning...CPU Speed and multi-cores, ram and disk I/O. You really can't ignore any of them. When I buy a "new" workstation (every 3-4 years) I get the fastest CPU with a ton of ram and really big and fast drives. I bought my MacPro last year in April (had no choice, I needed an updated workstation for book writing season).
I went with the dual quad 2.93 with 32gig of ram, dual vid cards and 4 internal SAS 15K drives via a MacRaid card. Externally I have twin 6 drive stripped arrays.
And not long after I took delivery and burned it in, the 6-cores where leaked. That's ok...in another 3-4 years when I get a new workstation, they will be a lot faster! Photoshop CS5 and Lightroom 3.3 run pretty darn fast until I start doing pano-merges of 8 or 9 P65+ files...