Luminous Landscape Forum
The Art of Photography => The Coffee Corner => Topic started by: PhillyPhotographer on December 30, 2010, 12:13:03 pm
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Amazing ! The find of the century.
http://www.vivianmaier.blogspot.com/
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Thanks for that. A Diane Arbus prefigure, but in a more outsider-art kind of way. In finds of old material like this it's sometimes difficult to sort out the artistic merits from the compelling historical interests, but those look pretty inspired in any case. Wonder if they're gonna develop those mystery rolls?
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The rolls are being developed and over 10,000 negatives have been scanned with over 90,000 to go. Powerhouse Books will be releasing a book at the end of 2011.
Video
http://www.street-photographers.com/blog/chicago-nanny-discovered-to-be-master-street-photographer-11535.html
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Michael, Splendid. Thanks for catching this.
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She has good eye.......but "the find of the century"? Of course the century is only like ten years old ;D
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She has good eye.......but "the find of the century"? Of course the century is only like ten years old ;D
Yes, a nice way of looking at images, also a far kinder eye than the Arbus one, which I find very unpleasant in most cases. Maybe Arbus also found something unpleasant in her compulsions - we shall probably never know, the myths are now far too potent and valuable to dispell with any clinical insights.
What I do think is true, however, is that some people do have an ability to be there but to be distant at the same time, sort of insulated from the present in a state of personal invisibility that allows them free space to shoot as they will.
I wonder if any of them give/gave a thought to getting a punch on the nose?
Rob C
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Really neat stuff!
IMO, Vivian seemed a much more refined photographer than Gary Winogrand who found fame during his lifetime and left thousands of rolls of undeveloped film in the freezer when he passed away. Vivian's work seems more crafted; Gary's more edgy in some ways.
Both leave a tremendous legacy of work!
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The joy of her work lies in the fact that she did it for nobody but herself, no arty sets in various institutions to pander to, no peers jealously guarding admission to their ranks nor a fickle public with ever changing tastes and interests to whom she must market her wares. It bestows upon the collection a purity and value that is quite refined and delicious. Roll on the release of more images.
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The joy of her work lies in the fact that she did it for nobody but herself, no arty sets in various institutions to pander to, no peers jealously guarding admission to their ranks nor a fickle public with ever changing tastes and interests to whom she must market her wares. It bestows upon the collection a purity and value that is quite refined and delicious. Roll on the release of more images.
Yes, she photographed only for herself, and saw the world as she wanted to see it. It is a bit of an anachronism that her work is now being displayed so publicly, but we'd be poorer without it.
Mike.
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Discovering unknown work by a known photographer is exciting. Discovering an unknown photographer of her caliber is beyond exciting.
Also the donations have topped the goal and the feature length documentary is a go !
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/800508197/finding-vivian-maier-a-feature-length-documentary
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Yes, she photographed only for herself, and saw the world as she wanted to see it. It is a bit of an anachronism that her work is now being displayed so publicly, but we'd be poorer without it.
Mike.
Now that's a difficult one: it takes several steps into the unknown; how can anyone know what she wanted or whether she simply recorded what she saw? Not the same at all, as the Meerkat always says.
I can only assume we are so bored with the people we already know too well (internet replaces work and reward of personal research) that any fresh face, dead or alive (though possibly difficult for the former), causes instant joy. Yes, she's fine, but no better than many other people right here. What did she do that Russ hasn't for that matter? In cynical mode - strange for me - I'd say that the cat who bought the bag of tricks has more to gain from pushing the deal than most! But that's just an opinion, of course.
Rob C
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I wonder Rob, and I mean this in the nicest possible way, if your views may be clouded a little by your own experience of photography and it's place and meaning in the world. As I think you have said yourself, you engaged in a 'brutal quest for beauty' whereas Ms Maier would appear to have trod a path in quite the opposite direction, and when beauty does enter this tiny fraction of her work it has it's back to us, we are denied its full presence, only the suggestion of it is allowed. By her avoidance of the attractive she ensures that our viewing of the less blessed is not the confrontation that it otherwise could be, we are prepared to engage with her subjects rather than hurriedly move on and by doing so I for one gain a greater insight into the bowels of the American City than any more leavened account that can be had elsewhere. Many of the photographers of her era were determined to either prove the value of their craft or their view of life, often both, Vivian just got on with it.
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Some more.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cbcl2MDtLp0
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I wonder Rob, and I mean this in the nicest possible way, if your views may be clouded a little by your own experience of photography and it's place and meaning in the world. As I think you have said yourself, you engaged in a 'brutal quest for beauty' whereas Ms Maier would appear to have trod a path in quite the opposite direction, and when beauty does enter this tiny fraction of her work it has it's back to us, we are denied its full presence, only the suggestion of it is allowed. By her avoidance of the attractive she ensures that our viewing of the less blessed is not the confrontation that it otherwise could be, we are prepared to engage with her subjects rather than hurriedly move on and by doing so I for one gain a greater insight into the bowels of the American City than any more leavened account that can be had elsewhere. Many of the photographers of her era were determined to either prove the value of their craft or their view of life, often both, Vivian just got on with it.
Hi Justin, nice to see somebody actually remember a line out of the website; many thanks for the spiritual lift!
But I don’t think we are really talking about the same things. I have no problem whatsoever with her subject matter – in fact, I think she handles it in a far more sympathetic manner than the obvious female comparator: Arbus.
And neither do I expect to see any beauty in the sense of attractive locations or even people; what I am suggesting is that she is neither any better nor any worse than many of the others doing that type of photography. Also, I certainly have no appetite for examining the underbelly of any city, and I can assure you that even that of some smallish country towns can be as risky a business! Try sleeping in an apartment next to a pub in a small Perthshire market town some weekend… I do not recommend it; young farmers and the terminally unemployed do not make for peaceful sleeping, especially when you are aware that your car is parked quite close by bearing Spanish plates!
However, what strikes me between the eyes is that there is always the one who discovers some ‘treasure’ and sees a way to maximise the find. Lots of promotion certainly helps the exercise along, promotion such as we are providing right now, for example. I’m afraid I see much of this sort of thing as material suitable for the ‘Is it Art?’ thread.
No doubt, should the thing come to fruition and end up catchable here, I’d look.
But to end: I’m certainly not knocking the lady’s work.
Rob C
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With only about 10% of the work scanned the best may yet come. While the cynicism that John might benefit from this discovery is baffling, he has a good 4 to 5 years of developing and scanning left. This undertaking is huge and I doubt most would have the patients or fortitude to complete it. You have a woman which is rare enough in street or documentary photography, a huge body of work and not being based in New York City. Some of the better work that I've seen would easily hold up to or exceed that of Bresson, Atget, Arbus, Smith or Evans.
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With only about 10% of the work scanned the best may yet come. While the cynicism that John might benefit from this discovery is baffling, he has a good 4 to 5 years of developing and scanning left. This undertaking is huge and I doubt most would have the patients or fortitude to complete it. You have a woman which is rare enough in street or documentary photography, a huge body of work and not being based in New York City. Some of the better work that I've seen would easily hold up to or exceed that of Bresson, Atget, Arbus, Smith or Evans.
The problem I feel with it is simple: as with one's own work, when money comes into the equation objectivity evaporates like morality at an orgy.
Not having been to many, I admit I could be mistaken about orgies.
Rob C
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Opening January 7th
http://www.explorechicago.org/city/en/things_see_do/event_landing/events/dca_tourism/FindingVivianMaier_ChicagoStreetPhotographer.html
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After observing her shots, don't think I want to see any more.
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After observing her shots, don't think I want to see any more.
Why is that Bike? Do they make your own seem unimportant?
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Thanks for the compliment, Rob, but I think this lady's work is remarkable. My copy of the first book out of Ms. Maier's pictures just arrived, but my wife insists I wait until Christmas to open it. In the meantime, thanks to the coverage Brooks Jensen gave her in the most recent LensWork, and the posts Michael's put in this thread, I get to see enough of Maier's work to understand we've found another great street photographer.
There are two things I notice about Vivian Maier's work:
First, I'm blown away by the fact she was doing all this with a Rollei. Weegee was out there with his Speed Graphic, but he was a police reporter first and foremost, so he didn't have to try to be inconspicuous. Seeing what Maier did makes me feel more comfortable about the times I'm out on the street with a D3.
But second, and probably more important, as I looked at Maier's work it struck me for the first time that there's a feminine approach to street photography that's quite different from the masculine approach. I've got a couple of Helen Levitt's books, at least one of Dianne Arbus's, and some of Dorothea Lange's street work scattered among various publications, but it just never struck me before that women take a different approach to the street than do men. How's that for a revelation? ... Well, I guess it isn't, but I've never really noticed it before.
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But second, and probably more important, as I looked at Maier's work it struck me for the first time that there's a feminine approach to street photography that's quite different from the masculine approach. I've got a couple of Helen Levitt's books, at least one of Dianne Arbus's, and some of Dorothea Lange's street work scattered among various publications, but it just never struck me before that women take a different approach to the street than do men. How's that for a revelation? ... Well, I guess it isn't, but I've never really noticed it before.
Russ,
Not just street photography, in my estimation. Right across the board woman manifest a distinctively different approach to the world than we men do. Note to the biased, I said "DIFFERENT" — not better and not worse.
Ruth Bernhard made some truly wonderful images of the nude at a time when such femme to femme action would have been very dimly frowned upon which indicates to me also that women have had to be stronger at times to make their voices heard.
Thankfully they did and we can enjoy their fruits.
W
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Well, I certainly agree with you, Walter, but it never struck me that a female approach to street photography was generically different from male street photography. I should have spotted it earlier, but there's something about Maier's work that makes it jump out at me.
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Her work is remarkable, was able to take a look at some of her pictures and have to say for me she seem's to include a story in a lot of them, I'm trying to find that book here in Mexico, but still have no luck, hopefully I'll get my hands on one soon.
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"Vivian Mayer: Street Photographer" (hardcover) is now available through Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1576875776/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=theonlinephot-20&linkCode=as2&camp=217145&creative=399373&creativeASIN=1576875776) and wherever else you order books...
Mike.
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You might also want to gander at the latest issue of LensWork.
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Sorry folks, but how many times nowadays do we hear about artists that are defined more by their life and than by their photos. Surely there are others out there who see what's really happening here.
Obviously Vivian Maier captured some wonderful pictures - don't get me wrong - but what stirs me up is that most of the talk is not about her pictures (beyond the usually platitudes) but about her life. As usual, it's the human interest story that has catapulted her to posthumous stardom, not the art.
I am one artist who is tiring of hearing about artists being "discovered" for their human interest stories and become "projects". I can't become rich and famous (unless I will a lottery) and buy my way into the art world. Perhaps if I cut off my ear, I, too, will be "discovered".
If human interest is the way for artists to be discovered, what does that say about art in general and photography more specifically? Perhaps it says that hundreds of us are doing amazing work, but our lives are just too mundane to be captivating for the so-called art world stage.
And for the naysayers - no, it's not sour grapes talking, that's for sure, but rather a healthy dose of a different perspective from one who choses not jump on every celebrity-of-the-week band-wagon.
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As usual, it's the human interest story that has catapulted her to posthumous stardom, not the art.
Terry, If you've actually seen her pictures, and if you've actually looked at Van Gogh's paintings, and if you still feel both artists have made it strictly on the basis of PR, I'd suggest you make an early appointment to see an ophthalmologist.
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Aye, Russ, it's a difficult one on which to take a firm stance.
Whilst I don't necessarily agree with it re. Vince, I do when you bring in a lot of other folks I won't mention because they are still alive and possibly in a strong position to sue and make themselves even more moolah on the side.
I remember reading Lust for Life when I was around fourteen; that coloured my vision of Van G. to the extent that when I actually got to see a few originals, I'd have worshipped the guy if he'd used contemporary elephant dung as medium! Its very, very difficult to divorce your mind's eye from your seeing one.
If anything, I think this is a relatively modern problem, especially in the world of photographs, where some pretty mundane stuff has sold for zillions only because of the hype associated with the snapper. And yes, I also do believe that there are many unsung heroes out there, ploughing their lonely furrow and doomed to not a lot until the day they bow out, their kids chucking their oeuvre into the trash as they clean up the house to sell it. I'd hardly imagine it's any different in music, either. I was just playing Julie London's Black Coffee as I started to write this; who can do that today? Listen to rap and tear your hair out. The same holds when I think about some of the Tamla Motown singers and rap... what's happened to all that talent in Detroit? All that black artistry abandoned for what?
Signs of the times.
Rob C
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While some say her work is greeted with over exuberance because of the story attached to it, it's those people who can't get past the story and see the beauty of her work. Only a small fraction has been seen.
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Either I didn't make myself entirely clear or you are misunderstanding what I said.
While Vivan Maier's work is interesting and certainly artful (as is van Gogh's, but he's on a different plain altogether) - the point is that the art world appears to be increasingly enamoured with the story, the human interest side, the narrative, than with the art. It's the over-emphasis on the narrative that begs the question: Is it great art that sells or great narrative that sells great art? Furthermore, if the art is not quite great, a great narrative seems to make up for it.
There are so many artists doing so many wonderful things, to make yourself stand out, it seems that nowadays you need a good narrative, too. It's rather like photographs that can only be explained by their titles (too often cutsey but also clever). The work should stand on its own. But in a world of celebrity, the art, by itself, doesn't seem to be good enough.
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It's not "nowadays", it's been that way for a very long time. Pick up any Art Forum magazine as far back as the early 80's. Artist Bios, statements, etc, etc. People in the art world want a story so hype is part of the norm.
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That certain people need a story in order to sell their protégé's stuff isn't in dispute; what's in dispute is whether that's a good thing in that it screens off people without either 'story' or PR consultants, people who might still be better artists than those with the publicity muscle.
In the end, I suppose that it comes down to the buying public - well, the buying investor - who needs the hype in order to find a reason, a push, to get himself over the hump of doubt.
Rob C
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In reality you don't need a story when you can produce images like this. Makes me say Bresson who ?
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_YUrw6ooCZj4/TRIegz-y4BI/AAAAAAAABBA/671fOdyYiyM/s400/57-440%2Bpost.jpg)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_YUrw6ooCZj4/TQT9IZKDv3I/AAAAAAAABAg/tIYIR9IbEII/s400/53-285.jpg)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_YUrw6ooCZj4/TUt4yuQHxvI/AAAAAAAABCw/JO7UCN6IIxY/s400/53-372.jpg)
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I'm afraid I can't agree; the pics are competent, especially (IMO) the first one, but the other two are nothing special at all - simply what any newspaper snapper of the old school could have produced had there been any chance of it getting published.
In fact, I think you have just shown the essential requirement for such photographs/photographers to have a 'history' behind them - without that, on the strength of a Friday/Saturday night image and of yet another guy down on his luck, who'd care? That such images might be well-executed isn't the point; the point in question is their value as interesting shots. For me, only the first one of the lady in the gown, has 'it', the magical essence that transcends the banality of the situation itself. Try as I might, the only virtue I see in the others is the time-reference to the clothing fashions of the day, unavoidable accidents.
Rob C
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That's what street photography is. Chance being depicted during time. :o
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"Photographs should stand on their own" = ridiculous
"No photograph should benefit from its title" = ridiculous
"Art, by itself" = sheer nonsense
Context matters. Body of work matters. Putting things into perspective matters. History matters. Story matters. Human side matters.
Even the most barren of landscapes contains human element, and not one, but two: photographer and viewer. There is no such thing as "art, by itself"... to be defined and accepted as art, it requires an artist, critics, viewers, public, consensus, context, story, body of work, etc.
Historic context matters: Ansel is great not because his "art, by itself" is great, but because he was the first to do something different. From today's perspective, some of his work is quite mundane and, quite frankly, easily reproducible by iPhones.
The same goes for the lady photographer in the OP. I have not seen much of her work, nor I am much into street photography, but for God's sake do not judge her relevance by today's standards. When we are drowning today in a deluge of photographs of epic proportions, where even a Noah's Arc would not help, it is easy to dismiss a photo as "just another of...". Put it in the context of the time in which it was made, and it might just as well be unique, if not one of very few. There was a time when not everyone was a photographer, let alone street one, when photography required dedication and mastery, and even a certain element of magic (anyone who watched an image appear out of nowhere on a submerged white paper, under red light, will know what I am talking about). Photographs made under those circumstances should not be measured by the yardstick of today's Flickr crap.
A disclaimer: statements above, some of which are, of course, hyperboles, are meant for rhetoric purposes only and not to offend anyone personally
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Thing is, Slobodan the western world was already drowning in photographic images; newspapers used to be everywhere, even wrapping up the fish'n'chips, a fine testimonial to much of the printed matter.
All of those 'modern' street shooters were working in a situation where press photography was commonplace in media. There's nothing special to be seen there in a photographically historical sense - it's not as if they were pioneers, or anything, they were just doing their thing or their job, as the circumstance may have been. In fact, when you consider the printed landscape then as compared with the paucity of 'serious' print today, they had it easy!
The difference, in my opinion, is that some of the ones (shooters) who went on to become legendary actually had a damned good eye for what they were supposed to be doing, which I think is why their work still stands today. I've never bough a print by any of them, wouldn't even consider the medium a thing for the wall, but that in no way diminishes the value of the work in book form, both interesting to me as historical capsule as well as an indication of how far one has personally to go in order to see the world as clearly.
Rob C
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Obviously Vivian Maier captured some wonderful pictures - don't get me wrong - but what stirs me up is that most of the talk is not about her pictures (beyond the usually platitudes) but about her life. As usual, it's the human interest story that has catapulted her to posthumous stardom, not the art.
The only reason we're talking about her life at all is because of her remarkable creative vision. If she had taken crappy photographs she would have remained as unknown in death as she was in life.
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The only reason we're talking about her life at all is because of her remarkable creative vision. If she had taken crappy photographs she would have remained as unknown in death as she was in life.
Exactly right.
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I had the privilege of seeing the exhibit in Chicago this spring. It was a real treat seeing her vision.
I think she had extraordinary talent.
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The only reason we're talking about her life at all is because of her remarkable creative vision. If she had taken crappy photographs she would have remained as unknown in death as she was in life.
Right! and Wrong! - vivian Maier had great talent but as Rob C said:
the western world was already drowning in photographic images
And I would add to that "we are drowning in some damn fine photographic images". The problem now seems to be one of quantity. There are billions of images being produced and if only 1/1,000,000th are worth looking at, that's probably thousands more than even 20 years ago before the digital revolution.
So given the huge volumes of excellent images from talented photographers, it makes sense that there needs to be other criteria upon which to base the "saleability" of a photographer's work. So the photographer's life becomes part of the equation. After all, while great art sells, you can sell even more if there's a story behind it and that's what the gallery game is all about - sales.
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Not only drowning in images post-digital, but for decades before that too.
Apart from the attractions of living on a great location for the sort of commissioned work that I was getting, this island of Mallorca was one of the most visited destinations for UK holidaymakers. Imagine my horor, then, when my stock agent, Tony Stone, told me not to send any further shots of local atmospherics because the libraries were groaning under the weight of them from every snapper wth a contract who'd been here on holiday or on a shoot. So what do you do with a spare 24/24? With a camera? Really?
At around the same time (mid-80s) I also contacted BAPLA for advice regarding another type of photographic genre and the lady there gave me exactly the same answer: all member agencies are overstocked with everything. The BJP published a revue of the The Image Bank, and reported that it boasted 36,000 images of the Eiffel Tower... so yes, digital has certainly impacted upon camera makers and film companies - damned nearly made them extinct - but the slow death of photography as other than ego-trip began long, long ago, and more and more I see it as being concentrated in fewer and fewer hands. Inevitable, I suppose.
Rob C