Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Digital Image Processing => Topic started by: Alan Klein on December 19, 2010, 06:58:22 pm

Title: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Alan Klein on December 19, 2010, 06:58:22 pm
I thought it would be helpful to start a discussion regarding settings and procedures for Epson flat bed scanners.   I've scanned 120 and 135 format film both transparencies and negatives.  Certainly I've struggled to get the best out of my Epson V600 scanner and know I could be doing better but need help.   What settings and procedures do you use when scanning? Please mention the unit you use, type of film, format, etc..

My own current procedure with medium film (both negative and trans)  is to only use ICE and all other processing is done with Photoshop Elements 8 after the scan.  I'm scanning at 2400 bpi and 24 bit color.  The only change was when I scanned 35mm underwater shots which tended to be very blue due to water absorption.  I let the Epson program Color Correct before the scan and that worked pretty good. 

Let's limit this to Epson and let's not get into discussions why other manufacturers' film scanners are better or worse, or that we should switch to digital, etc.  That's for other threads.  I'd like to keep this as a "how to" for Epson users. 


Thanks  ALan.
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Mark D Segal on December 19, 2010, 07:06:55 pm
I thought it would be helpful to start a discussion regarding settings and procedures for Epson flat bed scanners.   I've scanned 120 and 135 format film both transparencies and negatives.  Certainly I've struggled to get the best out of my Epson V600 scanner and know I could be doing better but need help.   What settings and procedures do you use when scanning? Please mention the unit you use, type of film, format, etc..

My own current procedure with medium film (both negative and trans)  is to only use ICE and all other processing is done with Photoshop Elements 8 after the scan.  I'm scanning at 2400 bpi and 24 bit color.  The only change was when I scanned 35mm underwater shots which tended to be very blue due to water absorption.  I let the Epson program Color Correct before the scan and that worked pretty good. 

Let's limit this to Epson and let's not get into discussions why other manufacturers' film scanners are better or worse, or that we should switch to digital, etc.  That's for other threads.  I'd like to keep this as a "how to" for Epson users. 


Thanks  ALan.

In what ways do you think you could be doing better? What issues or quality gaps are you encountering? What software are you using for making the scans? Specifically what aspects of scanning do you think you need help with?
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Alan Klein on December 19, 2010, 10:09:40 pm
Mark  Good questions.  I'm using the Epson software.  Some of the things I would like to know more about are:
1.  How do you limit the blocked up shadows areas?  When I use backlight selection, I just get a lot of red dots in the scanned photo especially in the shadow areas.
2. Which are better to scan and post process if you bracketed an exposure?  The under, over or calculated exposure shot?
3. Which pre-scan selections do you use and why?  How do you set them up?  (I don't use any except ICE and make all changes PP to speed up the scan process and reduce the overall amount of processing time I have to spend).
4. Do you handle these selections differently between 35mm and MF?
5. Which films do you find scan best with the flat bed?
6.  How do you straighten the curled negatives?
7. What non-Epson scan software do you use and where does it work best for you?

I was hoping to get a discusion started that we all could trade on our experience so we all can scan better.
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Mark D Segal on December 19, 2010, 11:16:51 pm
Mark  Good questions.  I'm using the Epson software.  Some of the things I would like to know more about are:
1.  How do you limit the blocked up shadows areas?  When I use backlight selection, I just get a lot of red dots in the scanned photo especially in the shadow areas.
2. Which are better to scan and post process if you bracketed an exposure?  The under, over or calculated exposure shot?
3. Which pre-scan selections do you use and why?  How do you set them up?  (I don't use any except ICE and make all changes PP to speed up the scan process and reduce the overall amount of processing time I have to spend).
4. Do you handle these selections differently between 35mm and MF?
5. Which films do you find scan best with the flat bed?
6.  How do you straighten the curled negatives?
7. What non-Epson scan software do you use and where does it work best for you?

I was hoping to get a discusion started that we all could trade on our experience so we all can scan better.

Epson Scan is a fairly limited application which nonetheless has the key tools needed to at least get a decent scan into Photoshop or Photoshop Elements where you can continue working on the image. You may wish to download demo versions of VueScan and SilverFast Ai6 to see whether those programs would better address your objectives.

The first thing about opening shadows is to check whether the film itself is exposed in a manner that the shadows can be opened. If you think they can be, and you are working in Epson Scan, it would be best to try doing this with the histogram and tone curve adjustments. The best exposure for scanning will be the one which doesn't clip highlights or shadows. Check the histogram in Epson Scan to determine which exposure has the most well-behaved histogram. If you must compromise, avoid exposures which clip all three channels in the highlights, because that is unrecoverable, whereas shadows which look plugged can often be opened somewhat in the software.

I scan in 48 bit colour (this is 3 channels by 16 bit each) because this maximizes the amount of data which can be used for post-scan adjustments, and minimizes risks of banding and posterization. If Photoshop Elements cannot handle 16-bit data, that's OK, scan in 16-bit anyhow because one day you may wish to reprocess these scans with an application that is 16-bit capable. You can convert a duplicate of these scans to 8 bit for Elements, but keep the original as a 16-bit file.

In the Configuration options you should go to the Color section, select Color Sync and within that menu select the ARGB color space and the correct profile for your scanner from the drop-down list in "Scanner Source". I would recommend ProPhoto colour space, except that Epson Scan doesn't provide it.

There is no need to scan everything at 2400 PPI. It depends on the output dimensions and output PPI you will need. For example, if you scan a 35mm frame at 2400 PPI, you will have 3600 pixels on the long dimensions. If you print that at 360 PPI, you can make a print with a 10 inch long dimension. With this kind of calculation, think of the largest output size you are ever likely to make and the output resolution you will require, then scan-in at the corresponding input resolution. It may be more or less than 2400 PPI.

As for how to set-up your scans in Epson Scan, click the Help button at the lower left of the Epson Scan interface.

You raise a question about which things to do as part of the scan and afterward. The configuration options, and exposure correction are the most important to do at the scan stage, because mishaps here could be difficult to recover with decent quality afterward.

Anything suggested here is valid regardless of whether the input media is 35mm or MF.

I don't find any film scans best with a flat bed. Epson is is as good as it gets for flat-bed scanning, but a good, dedicated film scanner will deliver more detailed scans. Unfortunately the best of these scanners are either costly or hard to find or both. If you can find a decent buy of a Minolta Scan Elite 5400 original or model 2, or with more difficulty, one of the later Nikon Coolscan models, they will out-perform the flatbeds. As well, you may wish to check-out my article on the Plustek 7600iAi on this website.

Dealing with curled negatives is difficult. Ideally, if the scanner allows you to scan them on glass, you can get them held down temporarily by wetting the underside with film cleaner. If this approach can't be done with that scanner, you need a frame-holder which flattens the film. The frame holder I have for the Epson V750 isn't too bad for that, but not stellar. You may try flattening the negatives under a few heavy books for a week or so and see whether that helps, being careful that nothing transfers from the book to the negatives.

I use SilverFast Ai6 Studio for all my scanning - it is all 'round the most complete scanning solution on the market for all the scanners discussed here.
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: JimAscher on December 20, 2010, 07:17:25 pm
I am concerned to scan some of my old medium format black-and-white negatives.  I have an Epson Perfection 3170 flatbed scanner, and have just ordered a BetterScanning variable height film holder.  Does it matter significantly with black-and-white scanning whether I use the native Epson scanning software, VueScan or SilverFast Ai6 Studio? 
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Mark D Segal on December 20, 2010, 08:12:36 pm
I am concerned to scan some of my old medium format black-and-white negatives.  I have an Epson Perfection 3170 flatbed scanner, and have just ordered a BetterScanning variable height film holder.  Does it matter significantly with black-and-white scanning whether I use the native Epson scanning software, VueScan or SilverFast Ai6 Studio? 

They all have similar options for configuring the scan set-up. Whichever you use, the key thing is the settings, the most basic of which is whether you wish to scan the film as a grayscale image, or an RGB image - even though it is B&W. It is often recommended to scan B&W as an RGB image for two reasons: (i) you have all three colour channels available for experimenting with toning effects after scanning, and (ii) the image file contains much more data, making it more robust for post-scan image editing. The only downside of an RGB scan could be non-neutrality, but this is easily dealt-with at or after the scan stage. I would recommend that you start with Epson Scan and try the various settings options to see what works best for you. If you are satisfied that you can achieve acceptable outcomes with this software, you're done. If you aren't, download trial versions of Vuescan and SilverFast and experiment.
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: JimAscher on December 20, 2010, 08:30:25 pm
Mark:  Great -- and welcome -- advice.  Will try when my film holder arrives (post-Christmas).  Regards, Jim
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Alan Klein on December 20, 2010, 09:02:54 pm
Mark:  Thanks for your in-depth response.  My original question regarding histogram and shadow areas I questioned on braketed shots.  It seems that from the standpoint of "normal" phtography, the best picture to scan would be the best exposed from a braketed set.  However, my thinking originally was that possibly because of how the scanner works, the scanner might work better by using either the over or under exposed shot.  What do you think?  Alan
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Mark D Segal on December 20, 2010, 09:51:04 pm
Mark:  Thanks for your in-depth response.  My original question regarding histogram and shadow areas I questioned on braketed shots.  It seems that from the standpoint of "normal" phtography, the best picture to scan would be the best exposed from a braketed set.  However, my thinking originally was that possibly because of how the scanner works, the scanner might work better by using either the over or under exposed shot.  What do you think?  Alan

You'll get a better quality scan from a better quality exposure.
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: dmerger on December 21, 2010, 09:40:52 am
Alan, there are two opposing camps regarding the best approach for scanning film.  I think it is fair to say that Mark is in the camp that advocates making a lot of image adjustments with scanning software.  I’m in the other camp and advocate making as few adjustments with the scanning software as reasonable and instead doing most processing with specialized image processing software (in my case Photoshop and Adobe Camera Raw).

I recommend that you first make an informed decision about which camp you want to join because it will control your whole approach to scanning.

In my view, the goal of scanning is to capture as much information from your film as your scanner is capable of retrieving. (See the first part of this video which shows you a good scan: http://craftingphotographs.com/2009/11/12/examples-the-making-of-a-photograph-mono-lake-sunrise/. ) Then, save the master scan and process your photos in a nondestructive manner using Photoshop or other quality image editing software. Under my approach, you set up your scanner hardware via your scanning software to achieve the best “raw” scan.  In other words, adjust focus and exposure (and ICE).  It’s as easy as taking a good photo with a digital camera, which is redundant since your scanner is nothing more than a specialized digital camera.  Both use the same types of light sensors, e.g. CCDs.  Any non-hardware adjustments merely change the pixel data produced by your scanner’s CCD, which usually is better done in Photoshop. 

A search on the internet should provide you with a more complete discussion of these two approaches to scanning.  You can start with the links below.  To give you an example of the difference in approach, however, I’ll use Mark’s approach to scanning resolution.  He advocates setting your scan resolution to what you think you’ll need to make prints.  I say it’s better to scan at your scanner’s native resolution.  Your scanner has a physical CCD.  No matter what input resolution you set in your scanner software, the CCD has a fixed number of photo sites which your software is incapable of altering.  Apparently, however, Mark believes that your scanner software can either change the physical dimensions of you CCD or advocates using you scanning software to automatically resample the pixel information produced by your scanner. The former is possible only in science fiction and the latter, in my opinion, is an unwise choice.  Why would you want to forever throw away information that your scanner can retrieve?

Scan resolution is of course just one aspect of scanning, but what I described about it applies generally to all non-hardware image adjustments in the scanning software.  A rather poor analogy would be to buy an expensive medium format digital back and then shoot jpegs with automatic downsizing.  I just don’t understand why so many people think scanning somehow is so different that they would do things when scanning that they’d never consider with a high quality digital camera. 

I recommend that, unlike so much information on the web, you clearly distinguish and separate the scanning process from the imaging editing process.  I don’t understand why so many people intermingle and confuse these two distinct aspects.  Maybe it’s because if people really understood what their scanner was doing there would be a lot smaller market for scanning software that is usually, just to pull a number out of the air,  10% scanning software and 90% second rate imaging editing software.

Anyway, Alan, you can take or leave my suggestions.  I know that there is a good deal of disagreement on this topic, so ultimately you’ll have to decide what works best for you.

Here are some links for more discussion on this topic: 
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=33511
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=10206.msg59059#msg59059
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=21014.msg154432#msg154432
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=25850.msg200755#msg200755
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=31086#entry251635
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=21014
http://photo.net/digital-darkroom-forum/00GJOo?start=10
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=49494.0
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Mark D Segal on December 21, 2010, 12:13:52 pm
Alan, there are two opposing camps regarding the best approach for scanning film.  I think it is fair to say that Mark is in the camp that advocates making a lot of image adjustments with scanning software.  I’m in the other camp and advocate making as few adjustments with the scanning software as reasonable and instead doing most processing with specialized image processing software (in my case Photoshop and Adobe Camera Raw).

I recommend that you first make an informed decision about which camp you want to join because it will control your whole approach to scanning.

In my view, the goal of scanning is to capture as much information from your film as your scanner is capable of retrieving. (See the first part of this video which shows you a good scan: http://craftingphotographs.com/2009/11/12/examples-the-making-of-a-photograph-mono-lake-sunrise/. ) Then, save the master scan and process your photos in a nondestructive manner using Photoshop or other quality image editing software. Under my approach, you set up your scanner hardware via your scanning software to achieve the best “raw” scan.  In other words, adjust focus and exposure (and ICE).  It’s as easy as taking a good photo with a digital camera, which is redundant since your scanner is nothing more than a specialized digital camera.  Both use the same types of light sensors, e.g. CCDs.  Any non-hardware adjustments merely change the pixel data produced by your scanner’s CCD, which usually is better done in Photoshop. 

A search on the internet should provide you with a more complete discussion of these two approaches to scanning.  You can start with the links below.  To give you an example of the difference in approach, however, I’ll use Mark’s approach to scanning resolution.  He advocates setting your scan resolution to what you think you’ll need to make prints.  I say it’s better to scan at your scanner’s native resolution.  Your scanner has a physical CCD.  No matter what input resolution you set in your scanner software, the CCD has a fixed number of photo sites which your software is incapable of altering.  Apparently, however, Mark believes that your scanner software can either change the physical dimensions of you CCD or advocates using you scanning software to automatically resample the pixel information produced by your scanner. The former is possible only in science fiction and the latter, in my opinion, is an unwise choice.  Why would you want to forever throw away information that your scanner can retrieve?

Scan resolution is of course just one aspect of scanning, but what I described about it applies generally to all non-hardware image adjustments in the scanning software.  A rather poor analogy would be to buy an expensive medium format digital back and then shoot jpegs with automatic downsizing.  I just don’t understand why so many people think scanning somehow is so different that they would do things when scanning that they’d never consider with a high quality digital camera. 

I recommend that, unlike so much information on the web, you clearly distinguish and separate the scanning process from the imaging editing process.  I don’t understand why so many people intermingle and confuse these two distinct aspects.  Maybe it’s because if people really understood what their scanner was doing there would be a lot smaller market for scanning software that is usually, just to pull a number out of the air,  10% scanning software and 90% second rate imaging editing software.

Anyway, Alan, you can take or leave my suggestions.  I know that there is a good deal of disagreement on this topic, so ultimately you’ll have to decide what works best for you.

Here are some links for more discussion on this topic: 
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=33511
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=10206.msg59059#msg59059
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=21014.msg154432#msg154432
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=25850.msg200755#msg200755
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=31086#entry251635
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=21014
http://photo.net/digital-darkroom-forum/00GJOo?start=10
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=49494.0


There are a number of misperceptions here which I only have time to deal with in a very summary fashion - I've already written extensively about much of this stuff.

Firstly, there are no "camps". Some things are technically better to do in the scanner software, other things are not, and the remainder is completely optional, depending on what you find works best for you. One simply needs to be pragmatic about this, doing your own testing and making your own decisions - but there are no "camps" to join. One of key tenets of digital imaging I try to emphasize is the importance of understanding the technicalities involved and from that point - pragmatism.

Secondly, there is no such thing as a scanner's "native resolution". There are many native resolutions of all the scanners I've ever tested. Scan resolution is normally set in discrete steps from lower to higher, not a continuum, and in SilverFast you can easily detect what these discrete steps are. As long as you scan at a discrete resolution step, you know exactly what you are getting. If you select an intermediate resolution, under the hood the scanner reverts to the closest discrete step relative to your selection.

Thirdly, let us deal with this sentence from Dean: <Apparently, however, Mark believes that your scanner software can either change the physical dimensions of you CCD or advocates using you scanning software to automatically resample the pixel information produced by your scanner. The former is possible only in science fiction and the latter, in my opinion, is an unwise choice.  Why would you want to forever throw away information that your scanner can retrieve?> I have never ever anywhere said or implied this "science fiction". The CCD and the maximum optical resolution of the CCD are fixed. The choice of a scanning resolution below the maximum optical resolution of the scanner producers smaller than maximum file size and therefore resamples the scan data The whole of the CCD is used to capture all the data the scanner can reproduce, but it is then resampled to fit the dimensions and PPI you selected. I have tested - extensively - the alternatives of scanning at maximum optical resolution, then resizing or resampling in Photoshop, versus scanning at my target dimensions and PPI and doing no resizing or resampling in Photoshop. I have then made large prints of the results from both approaches and frankly I couldn't tell which was which. I did this using SilverFast. Results may differ with other software - that I don't know because I haven't made these tests with software other than SilverFast and Photoshop. I agree with Dean - to the extent file size is no issue for you - there is at least no harm scanning at maximum optical resolution and retaining all the data without resampling. I do not agree that this is necessarily superior to the other approach - that depends on whether you know what your maximum dimensions will need to be for now and forever, and on the quality of the software you are using. As is often the case in digital imaging, the expression "it depends" is rather crucial.

Fourthly, there is no such thing as a raw scan. The film already has an embedded gamma which is non-linear, so this cannot be compared with what a digital camera's raw image opened in Camera Raw at zero'd parameters gives you. The spectral response of the scanner CCD may also not be exactly what you like, nor is it colour managed all on its own, nor is it necessarily stable and exactly repeatable even from one sensor to the next in the same model - it depends on the manufacturing quality, hence we profile the scanners to get them into a known state for producing consistent colour in a colour-managed workflow. If by "raw" scan Dean simply means a scan that has had no other adjustments apart from those produced by the scanner profile, exposure, focus and ICE, OK - I would call that a minimally adjusted scan, and as I said above, one can do this and complete the editing in another application. It is of course possible to retain this minimally adjusted scan in its original state in one of two ways: (i) use SilverFast HDR, which produces a scan with no adjustments apart from the selection of a gamma greater than one (if you wish); you can then make as many adjustments as you like in SilverFast HDR, then export the resulting file to your hard disk for whatever else you wish to do with it. But you can always revert back to the pre-adjusted state of the image in SilverFast HDR. (ii) The other approach is to always save your minimally adjusted scan as a master file on your hard drive, and make all your adjustments in PS or LR on a separate copy. Again, largely optional, depending for many of the adjustments where you prefer to make them and what process comes out best for you, which could vary from imaging situation to another.

Finally, I refer you to my various articles on this website where I have gone to some length explaining the strengths and limitations of the various approaches to image adjustment as between the scanning software (in my case using SilverFast) versus LR or PS. I generally conclude, and still maintain, that every application does things a bit differently, producing variations in results. Some are better in some respects than others, so it is good to have it all at one's disposition to experiment and adopt as appropriate. To say that imaging editing is generally "second rate" in all scanning software really over simplifies a much more nuanced reality. No one piece of software has a monopoly on preferred outcomes in every circumstance every time.
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Alan Klein on December 21, 2010, 11:40:28 pm
Lots of different opinions, experiences and suggestions as I expected.  Maybe there's more than one good way to get to the same results?   I did watch the YouTube and the one thing he mentioned about scanning was to get the lightest part at around 230, no more, and then let the rest fall where they may.  My own technique was to only use ICE and then PP afterwards in Elements only to save time and energy.  Frankly using two different processors, before and after the scans, are too much for me.  I'm still trying to learn Elements.  And I was pretty gratified seeing how quickly adjusting levels in Elements quickly brought back the reasonably good lighting and color even on scans that looked drab.

Maybe if you can tell me what's wrong and right with my photos, that would help in trying to better the scan process.  Not the composition, (I'm not looking  for a critique), but the lighting and colors whether they look correct or not in the final image.  Obviously my original scans looked nothing like the final posted images after PP with Elements.  But isn't that the point?  I really don't care how I get there.  There could be many different but acceptable ways.

Here's a link to the scans PP'd.  If you would, please pick one or two by name and tell me what's right and wrong with the colors and lighting.  And how in the pre or post scan process they can be improved.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alanklein2000/sets/
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Mark D Segal on December 22, 2010, 10:31:54 am
Alan, to the extent one can judge web-version JPEGs on a colour-managed display I think on the whole you are doing very well with this. I have only three comments: (1) in several images the skin tones look slightly over-saturated, but hard to say because I don't know the complexion of the individual or the lighting conditions, (2) in several images the skies are a bit purple. If they should be more blue, you can fix this by removing some magenta from blue. (3) In several images you seem a shade closer to the highlight clipping point than I would be comfortable with, fixable by readjusting the highlights a bit. Keep up the good work!
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: dmerger on December 22, 2010, 01:37:29 pm
Wow, I’ve never seen so many straw men and semantic quibbles in such a small space.  Mark, I commend you on your creativity.  ;)

However, when you criticize my use of five words, “second rate imaging editing software”, as over simplifying a much more nuanced reality, you surely go beyond the pale.  I can only respond by recalling the scene from Casablanca where Captain Renault orders Rick to close his café.

Rick: How can you close me up? On what grounds?
Captain Renault: I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!
[a croupier hands Renault a pile of money]
Croupier: Your winnings, sir.

Or perhaps I could play the role of Ed McMahon to your Johnny Carson in one of their recurring skits, where Ed, as the quintessential straight man, comments on a small pamphlet that Johnny is holding:

Me, as Ed: “You know, it’s amazing, truly amazing, that everything you’d ever want to know about [ X ], absolutely everything, is contained in that one small pamphlet.” 

To which you could reply ala Johnny Carson, and in recognition to your Canadian heritage, “Wrong, Moose Breath!” 


To all those too young to know what I’m talking about, I beg your indulgence for my attempt at humor.  I should probably stop now, but I can’t resist one more attempt inspired by Mark’s reply. 

A quote from the great character actor, Warren Oats, from the film “Stripes”, where Warren plays Sergeant Hulka:

Psycho: The name's Francis Soyer, but everybody calls me Psycho. Any of you guys call me Francis, and I'll kill you.
Leon: Ooooooh.
Psycho: You just made the list, buddy. And I don't like nobody touching my stuff. So just keep your meat-hooks off. If I catch any of you guys in my stuff, I'll kill you. Also, I don't like nobody touching me. Now, any of you homos touch me, and I'll kill you.
Sergeant Hulka: Lighten up, Francis.
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Alan Klein on December 22, 2010, 06:07:03 pm
Mark:  Thanks for your review of my photos.  1. A couple of the people shots were with Velvia 50.  I really stuggled to adjust the red but wasn't too successful. I hope the others were OK regarding complxion as they were shot with a negative low sat film.  2.  Would you mind naming the phto(s) that have the magenta?  I don't know which ones. 3.  Would I adjust the highlight clipping point in the scan process or is it best afterwards in Elements?  If so how?
Tks. Alan
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Mark D Segal on December 23, 2010, 12:04:45 am
Mark:  Thanks for your review of my photos.  1. A couple of the people shots were with Velvia 50.  I really stuggled to adjust the red but wasn't too successful. I hope the others were OK regarding complxion as they were shot with a negative low sat film.  2.  Would you mind naming the phto(s) that have the magenta?  I don't know which ones. 3.  Would I adjust the highlight clipping point in the scan process or is it best afterwards in Elements?  If so how?
Tks. Alan

Alan, unless Janet was really of this complexion, the following struck me as a tad over-saturated: Janet Portrait, Janet Fence and Janet in Car. Highlights could be toned down especially in Al Roker Drops In and Janet and Julie Sunning - you've got really bright reflections of strong sunlight to deal with there, so I can see the problem. It is best addressed at the scan stage by reducing exposure a bit. The possible issues with the sky show in Sky Branch (perhaps a bit too magenta), Portland Maine Lighthouse (same) and Branch (a bit too much Cyan). But for these, your toning may not be too far off depending on the time of day it was etc. These are hard to judge in terms of accuracy, so just my impressions knowing nothing about the capture conditions. Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Alan Klein on December 23, 2010, 04:42:11 pm
Mark:  That's very good news.  It seems like the scfanning process I'm following did not create any big problems and I seem to be able to deal with the images that the flat bed scanner is giving me.

The problems you flagged for 1 and 2 were because the films were Velvia 50 so the reds and magentas have to be adjusted and can be in PP with Elements.  The highlights are a bigger problem.  How do you reduce that?  That's in the original film.  Adjust during scanning or in PP with Elements?  And how do you adjust it?  Thanks Alan.
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Mark D Segal on December 24, 2010, 09:22:16 am
Mark:  That's very good news.  It seems like the scfanning process I'm following did not create any big problems and I seem to be able to deal with the images that the flat bed scanner is giving me.

The problems you flagged for 1 and 2 were because the films were Velvia 50 so the reds and magentas have to be adjusted and can be in PP with Elements.  The highlights are a bigger problem.  How do you reduce that?  That's in the original film.  Adjust during scanning or in PP with Elements?  And how do you adjust it?  Thanks Alan.

Alan, the highlight problem cannot be dealt with totally satisfactorily in scanning software or in Elements - and depending on how bad it is, it may be non-recoverable at all. As you mention, the key is what's in the film. At the scan stage, the best you can do is to make sure that you are protecting whatever amount of highlight information does reside in the film. You do this in Epson scan (or other scan software) by reducing exposure, or by pulling down the highlight portion of the tone curve a bit, or in the histogram tool, if it has tone adjustors - making sure that the right side of the histogram is not clipped. Different approaches depending on the software, but all have the common objective of moving the extreme highlights to the left of the clipping point. To do much more beyond that, if there were any real pixel data in the highlights, the best application for rebuilding it is Lightroom. You can import TIFFs into Lightroom and try its exposure control tools - in particular for this situation the Recovery Tool. Can work wonders if there were at least one channel with real data. You can download a trial of Lightroom and experiment - see if it helps - only costs you a bit of time unless you decide to purchase it.
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: dmerger on December 24, 2010, 05:38:11 pm
The film already has an embedded gamma

Thanks for the tip, Mark, ‘cause I thought it was just me.  I mean, everywhere I look I see gamma embedded images.  I mean everywhere.  I tried looking out of the corner of my eye. Gamma embedded.  I tried pretending I was asleep, but really keeping my eyes open just enough to peak through my eyelashes.  Still gamma embedded.  So, I tried jumping out from behind buildings to see if I could surprise this gamma embedding monster.  Still gamma embedded, although one time a little old lady did kick me in the …  well let’s just say that for awhile I didn’t see things with embedded gamma.  After my vision cleared up, and I managed to crawl to my car, I figured I’d better go to the pros to solve this gamma problem.

So, I went to see five different ophthalmologists and optometrists.  After carefully explaining my gamma nightmare, every one of them guys threw me out of their office. Three told me to never come back.  One guy went so far as to threaten to call the police.  Then it hit me!  These guys were part of a conspiracy.  In fact, I bet every ophthalmologist and optometrist is in on it.  Boy this is big!

So, as any red blooded patriot would do, I immediately called the Department of Homeland Security, the CIA and the FBI.  I explained to them that I had uncovered the mother of all conspiracies.  And worst of all, these terrorists all looked just like you and me. Something had to be done immediately.

Well, later that day, a nice young FBI agent came to my house to get more information about this terrorist conspiracy.  Boy, was he interested.  Astonished may be a better description.  Anyway, after I told him what I had discovered, he became worried for my safety.  He asked me if I had any guns in the house.  I assured him that I was more than capable of protecting myself.  Somehow, this didn’t seem to satisfy the nice young man, so I let him search my house, although I told him he wouldn’t find any terrorist ophthalmologists or optometrists in my house.

Such a nice young man.  Not only was he concerned for my safety, he was also concerned about my health.  I guess he wanted to be sure I was healthy enough to provide assistance in busting up this terrorist conspiracy.  He asked all about my medical history and wanted to know about my medications.  For example, he asked me “Are you on drugs?’’.  You don’t see this kind of concern every day.

Anyway, we had a nice chat, and even though I assured him that I could take care of myself, as he was leaving, that nice young man said that they’d be watching over me, or maybe he said that they’d be watching me.  I’m not sure, but he sure was a nice young man.

But Mark, I’m not the kind of guy to not give credit where credit is due, so I also told that nice young FBI agent all about you and that you were the one that led me to uncovering this vast ophthalmologists and optometrists terrorist conspiracy.  So, don’t be surprised or alarmed if some nice young FBI agent knocks on your door.
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Alan Klein on December 24, 2010, 10:44:59 pm
It seems that I re-started on-going "discussion" between Mark and Dean when I started this topic.  I didn't realize there's such a basic disagreement of whether to process before or after the scans.   I'm glad I've given you all another chance to take some pot shots at each other.

My own very limited experience is that on a couple of scans where I tried setting before and comparing with scanning flat and adjusting PP in Eements was that I couldn't tell the difference with the final results.    I found that if I didn't get the prescan adjustments right, I would have to rescan the same shots a very long procedure.  Plus, with adjusting before the scan, that doubles the processing when you include PP and I have to spend even more time tweeking, nudging, etc.  Enough already!  So I decided to scan flat except for ICE and do processing with Elements.

However, I will agree that it is possible that my Epson V600 flat bed is possibly changing the light during the scan - don't know for sure.  It certainly is scanning twice for ICE so it's possible.  I just don't see it in the final results and while the scans can look pretty flat, just a small adjustment to levels in PP gets the contrast and colors back to what appears to be normal.  Since you Mark had no comments on my final images other than those problems caused on shots taken with Velvia or over exposing the original exposure, my procedure seems to be working - for me anyway.  I welcome other to look at my pictures and tell me where the color and exposures can be done better.  That's the whole point of this post.

However, Dean you said focus and exposure as well as ICE can be adjusted during the scan.  Can you explain how to do that?  Isn't that part of the softward processing the scanner is doing to the scanned image and not effecting the scan process directly?

As an aside, I'm using the Epson program and there were no settings I made for type of film especially negative type which seems actually to do the best. 
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Alan Klein on December 24, 2010, 10:50:54 pm
Oh.  If you look, all the people shots are Fujicolor negatives except the single person Janet or Julie shots.  Those are Velvia 50.  The landscape shots are a mixed bag of negatives and postives.  I really should label them.  Alan-
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Mark D Segal on December 26, 2010, 05:17:28 pm
It seems that I re-started on-going "discussion" between Mark and Dean when I started this topic.  I didn't realize there's such a basic disagreement of whether to process before or after the scans.   I'm glad I've given you all another chance to take some pot shots at each other.

My own very limited experience is that on a couple of scans where I tried setting before and comparing with scanning flat and adjusting PP in Eements was that I couldn't tell the difference with the final results.    I found that if I didn't get the prescan adjustments right, I would have to rescan the same shots a very long procedure.  Plus, with adjusting before the scan, that doubles the processing when you include PP and I have to spend even more time tweeking, nudging, etc.  Enough already!  So I decided to scan flat except for ICE and do processing with Elements.

However, I will agree that it is possible that my Epson V600 flat bed is possibly changing the light during the scan - don't know for sure.  It certainly is scanning twice for ICE so it's possible.  I just don't see it in the final results and while the scans can look pretty flat, just a small adjustment to levels in PP gets the contrast and colors back to what appears to be normal.  Since you Mark had no comments on my final images other than those problems caused on shots taken with Velvia or over exposing the original exposure, my procedure seems to be working - for me anyway.  I welcome other to look at my pictures and tell me where the color and exposures can be done better.  That's the whole point of this post.

However, Dean you said focus and exposure as well as ICE can be adjusted during the scan.  Can you explain how to do that?  Isn't that part of the softward processing the scanner is doing to the scanned image and not effecting the scan process directly?

As an aside, I'm using the Epson program and there were no settings I made for type of film especially negative type which seems actually to do the best. 

Alan, I think what you are saying here makes an important point: if you a have procedure nailed down which on the whole works well for you, just carry on using it; where you've had several issues, as we discussed above there are ways to deal with them, the highlight issue perhaps needing another application - for you to determine by trying it (demos are free - just time), but the other things (saturation and blues for example) seem manageable with the tools you have. I've said and demonstrated previously, that apart from some basic adjustments, and depending on certain characteristics of the image, one can be very pragmatic about which adjustments are made before or after the scan. As well, the choice of software and scanner one uses depends importantly on the kind of output one requires. Of course some output is more demanding than some, so one hauls out the tools needed to do the job, very much as in anything else.
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Farmer on December 26, 2010, 06:38:32 pm
Dean: If you're trying to be funny, I think you're failing.  If you're trying to be inflammatory and a pain, you're succeeding.
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: dmerger on January 05, 2011, 12:18:23 pm
Alan, I’m not sure I understand your question, but I believe you’re asking whether ICE is purely a software adjustment.  It’s not.  It’s a combination of software and hardware.  You can easily find more details on the internet if you’re interested, but the quick, simple explanation is that your scanner uses an infrared light source for ICE, and then uses that info to “remove” the dust and scratches.   In other words, you have to enable the infrared light function in your scanner hardware so that the software can process the resulting data.

I’ve never used an Epson scanner, so I’m not sure how your particular scanner operates.  Your scanner may indeed be changing the light during the scan, if you mean that as you change the exposure setting the light intensity appears to change.  Some scanners, however, change the scan time to effect exposure changes.  It’s similar to any other camera.  You can add more light (maybe via flash or otherwise) or increase the exposure time.

Alan, I think that you have the situation nailed.  You wrote:
“My own very limited experience is that on a couple of scans where I tried setting before and comparing with scanning flat and adjusting PP in Eements was that I couldn't tell the difference with the final results.    I found that if I didn't get the prescan adjustments right, I would have to rescan the same shots a very long procedure.”

I’d guess that it would be extremely rare, if ever, that you’d see any difference in results if you made the same image adjustments in the scanning software versus Photoshop.  As you rightly note, however, in many cases if you don’t get it exactly right in the scanning software the first time, you’ve got to start all over again. Whereas, in Photoshop, Adobe Camera Raw, Lightroom (and probably other imaging editing software), if you follow a nondestructive workflow, you can easily go back and tweak your adjustments as often as you like.  In so doing, it’s not only vastly easier, but even repeated changes don’t deteriorate your photo.  These advantages and many others are why Photoshop, Adobe Camera Raw and Lightroom have a virtual corner on the market for imaging software for advanced photographers.
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: dmerger on January 05, 2011, 12:19:58 pm
When trying to make a substantive point with humor, it’s inevitable that some people won’t get the point, won’t appreciate the humor or both. 
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Mark D Segal on January 05, 2011, 12:53:10 pm
Alan, I’m not sure I understand your question, but I believe you’re asking whether ICE is purely a software adjustment.  It’s not.  It’s a combination of software and hardware.  You can easily find more details on the internet if you’re interested, but the quick, simple explanation is that your scanner uses an infrared light source for ICE, and then uses that info to “remove” the dust and scratches.   In other words, you have to enable the infrared light function in your scanner hardware so that the software can process the resulting data.

I’ve never used an Epson scanner, so I’m not sure how your particular scanner operates.  Your scanner may indeed be changing the light during the scan, if you mean that as you change the exposure setting the light intensity appears to change.  Some scanners, however, change the scan time to effect exposure changes.  It’s similar to any other camera.  You can add more light (maybe via flash or otherwise) or increase the exposure time.

Alan, I think that you have the situation nailed.  You wrote:
“My own very limited experience is that on a couple of scans where I tried setting before and comparing with scanning flat and adjusting PP in Eements was that I couldn't tell the difference with the final results.    I found that if I didn't get the prescan adjustments right, I would have to rescan the same shots a very long procedure.”

I’d guess that it would be extremely rare, if ever, that you’d see any difference in results if you made the same image adjustments in the scanning software versus Photoshop.  As you rightly note, however, in many cases if you don’t get it exactly right in the scanning software the first time, you’ve got to start all over again. Whereas, in Photoshop, Adobe Camera Raw, Lightroom (and probably other imaging editing software), if you follow a nondestructive workflow, you can easily go back and tweak your adjustments as often as you like.  In so doing, it’s not only vastly easier, but even repeated changes don’t deteriorate your photo.  These advantages and many others are why Photoshop, Adobe Camera Raw and Lightroom have a virtual corner on the market for imaging software for advanced photographers.


Specifically, the infra-red channel is used for identifying and isolating dust and scratches from other information, and once so identified, software algorithms cover them up. As your scanner specs indicate 48-bit capability, this means it can scan R, G, B and the infra-red channels at 16-bit depth each, and that allows ICE to work. ICE in Epson Scan has two modes: speed or quality. Just so you'll know, in SilverFast ai6, there is a technology called "iSRD" (infra-red scratch and dust removal), which allows quite refined selection of the scope of dust and scratches to be considered as such, as well as a layered approach to their removal, both of which features help to protect against removing useful data.

I agree with Dean that Photoshop and Lightroom are king of the crop for convenient non-destructive workflow. I would add, however, just two points here. From my experience of scanning over the years, there are imaging situations where it is best to make exposure adjustments in the scanning software - in particular for dealing with severe under-exposure. Sometimes this is the optimal way to recover smothered detail and sometimes it makes further adjustments in PS and LR more successful. It depends on the image. Exposure increases operate differently depending on the scanner - in some cases it increases lamp brightness, in others it prolongs exposure time - no matter - the hardware is being deployed to rescue under-exposure, often very effectively. The second point I would add relates to the non-destructive aspect. LaserSoft Imaging provides a piece of software called "SilverFast HDR", which I use. It works like this: First you make a 48-bit HDR scan in SilverFast Ai, then you open the result in SilverFast HDR, where you can make whatever other adjustments you want prior to exporting the image for more work or printing or web-posting, whatever. The advantage of this workflow is that SilverFast HDR preserves the original scan, so that if you don't like what you got in the first round, you can go back there and edit the adjustments, or simply export the scan unadjusted without re-scanning the originals. This is not as complete a solution to non-destructive workflow as we have in PS and LR, but it is a significant feature of this software in that direction, insofar as it preserves the original scan and obviates the need for rescanning.

I agree with Dean based on my own experimentation that often it is 6 of 1, half a dozen of the other where you do the editing, but I would just qualify with "not always". And then, let us keep in mind that not everyone out there who wants to scan their archives necessarily wants to spend 300 on LR or 700 on PS. They are happy to be able to use the scanning software which came bundled with their scanners, or if possible, up-grade relatively inexpensively to the next level of scanning software. Of course those who have all the tools also have an interest to use the best for the job or what they feel most comfortable with.
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: dmerger on January 05, 2011, 04:59:18 pm
From my experience of scanning over the years, there are imaging situations where it is best to make exposure adjustments in the scanning software - in particular for dealing with severe under-exposure.

I agree with Mark, but I’d be more emphatic.  You should always optimize your scanner hardware adjustments. Bear in mind that your scanner is just a specialized camera. As with any camera, you will get the best results with proper exposure and focus. Sometimes auto exposure and auto focus are right on, sometimes an adjustment will yield some improvement.

I usually first do a test scan at low resolution and auto exposure but without ICE or any other scanning software adjustments, which makes for a relatively quick scan. I then open the scan in PS to see how it looks and examine the histogram.  If I think a different exposure would be better, I do another test scan with a hardware exposure adjustment. I repeat the process if necessary until I find what I think is the optimum exposure.

I then manually focus, which is usually slightly better than auto focus with my scanner. I also usually enable ICE, and then scan at my scanners highest optical resolution. I make no other adjustments with my scanning software since I prefer to make all software adjustments in a nondestructive manner in ACR and PS.  (I do, however, scan negatives using the basic negative setting in my scanning software.)

Finally, I open the final scan in PS and double check the histogram to be sure I’m getting the result I expected.  Usually, it’s exactly as I expected, but on a few rare occasions I’ve had to do another scan with a slight hardware exposure adjustment.

With my scanning method, getting the best scan my scanner is capable of producing is straight forward and easy. The difficult part, at least for me, is to turn my scans into great looking photos using ACR and PS.

For some photos with a very wide dynamic range, or when I may not have optimized the exposure of the film, I’ve used some more advanced scanning methods using multiple scans of the same photo or, where I’ve bracketed my film exposures, scans of the different film exposures, and then blended the scans in PS. I think a discussion of such methods may be beyond the scope of this thread, however, so I won’t go into detail here.
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Alan Klein on January 05, 2011, 08:55:26 pm
I appreciate all the ideas and comments.  I've checked some other sources as well.  I am now fairly convinced that except for ICE, the scanner makes no hardware change during the scan but only adjusts the files afterwards in much the same respect that Photoshop would do.  These are my reasons:

1.  None of the Epson literature says anything about changing the light intensity or how the scanner scans based upon settings that you do.  If the end results color and lighting was created by hardware adjustments and not just their Epson program that is just similar to other post processing programs, they would have yelled all about it.  It would be a great marketing argument to buy Epson.  Yet, they are silent on this in their literature indicating it does not happen by hardware.  Except for ICE, which uses multiple passes, the feature explanation says nothing about variable hardware operation effected by user setting adjustments.  http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/jsp/Product.do?BV_SessionID=@@@@0958402323.1294275982@@@@&BV_EngineID=ccgiademhfegjdkcfngcfkmdhjidfmh.0&cookies=no&sku=B11B198011

2.  When you pre-scan, you can hit the auto color and backlight and other changes and actually see the changes to the pre-scan quick picture.  Obviously, there is no second pre-scan.  The image changes are programming only - not hardware.  Basically, they are showing you what they are going to do with the software once they get the longer scanned main file.  And those are program changes to the image file.

3.  My own experience in adjusting before and after the scan showed no difference.  I got the same results at the end.

4. From a logical standpoint, how would the scanner know which particular pixel is in shadow or is just a dark area in the photograph?  How could the scanner adjust the lighting pixel by pixel? The scanner scans a line at a time.  It's no different than a camera.  All the adjustments you make in a camera effect the overall image captured.  If you change the contrast level, it’s applied for the entire image.  My guess is that the scanner just tries to capture as much info as it can from black to white regardless of your settings and then adjusts afterwards just like Photoshop.


I sent an email to Epson and asked them to explain the operation.  Don't know if they'll answer but hopefully they will.  Alan
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: dmerger on January 05, 2011, 09:42:11 pm
Obviously, Alan, I agree with your conclusions, with a couple of exceptions.

I don’t know how your Epson works, but I’d be very surprised if it didn’t provide for hardware exposure adjustment and possibly focus. Those adjustments are clearly hardware adjustments with my Minolta 5400.  When I adjust focus I can see and hear the film holder moving.  When I increase exposure my scanner scans more slowly, sometimes a lot slower. I’ve read that the Nikon scanners adjust the LED light intensity with increased exposure. I expect that Epson didn’t make a big deal about its hardware adjustments because they are not unique.  I believe that most film scanners have such hardware adjustments and I’m not aware of any manufacturer making a big deal about it. 

By the way, I’m a little surprised to hear that your Epson uses multiple passes for ICE.  Multiple passes is more prone to misalignment that implementing ICE in a single scan along with the normal RGB.  I’m not saying that multiple passes is not as good, just that it introduces a potential misalignment. Just like multi-pass versus multi-sample for reducing scanner noise, where most commentators suggest that multi-sample is at least potentially superior.  I’m not trying to make a big deal out of how your Epson implements ICE; I just find it interesting.
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Alan Klein on January 05, 2011, 09:57:33 pm
Dean:  You may be correct.  It's unfortunate that Epson doesn't say how they do it.  It's very important because if there is no hardware change to the scan process, then making changes to the scanner settings is a waste of time.  You might as well wait to do them one time with your favorite and more powerful post processing program.  On the other hand, if there are some hardware change to the scan, what are they?  Increasing the light intensity would change the overall exposure much like changing the aperture in a camera but that would effect the entire image. That would help on darken shots.  It also would not effect the color so all those adjustments you make could be saved for PP.  So maybe some scanner adjustments make sense and other don't.  Let's hope they answer my email.  Alan.
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Alan Klein on January 05, 2011, 10:31:35 pm
Here's a link to the more expensive V700.  Compared to the V600 I'm using, it has two lenses for different resolutions, the mount is manually adjusted (no automatic focusing) and some other minor differences.  The main difference is it has a higher dMax to capture the shadows.  But there nothing  in the explanation saying it changes the amount of light  or the speed of the scan depending on the settings.  http://www.imaging-resource.com/SCAN/V700/V700.HTM

I checked the Minolta 5400II.  It says it automatically focuses and provide multiscan to eliminate noise.  Nothing about using hardware to chnage hardward scans though.  http://www.imaging-resource.com/SCAN/KM5400II/KM5400IIA.HTM


The Epson unit use dual scan for ICE. Here's the extract from the Epson site.  Notice how they mention hardware as well as software.  ICE is the only place in their web that mentions hardware changes.

·   Digital Ice® Technologies
An image restoration solution that uses a unique combination of hardware and software to correct image defects.
Digital ICE for Film uses an infrared sensor to detect dust and scratches on the surface of the film. In a multi-pass process, the dust/scratch is mapped out and carefully removed from the scanned image, leaving the composition and quality intact.
Digital ICE for Prints uses two lamps at different angles to map defects using differences in shadows to detect tears, folds and creases on prints and correct the scanned image accordingly
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: dmerger on January 06, 2011, 12:21:35 pm
I’ve been surprised by a few things in this thread, but by far my biggest surprise would be if Epson answers you e-mail in a helpful manner.  :)  With some exceptions, most everybody, manufacturers, sellers of scanning software, authors, web sites offering scanning advice, etc., all seem to go out of their way to hide the distinction between hardware and purely software adjustments, or maybe some people just don’t understand that there is a difference.  It makes one wonder.

It's very important because if there is no hardware change to the scan process, then making changes to the scanner settings is a waste of time.  You might as well wait to do them one time with your favorite and more powerful post processing program. 

You’re preaching to the choir with me.

But there nothing  in the explanation saying it changes the amount of light  or the speed of the scan depending on the settings.  http://www.imaging-resource.com/SCAN/V700/V700.HTM

I checked the Minolta 5400II.  It says it automatically focuses and provide multiscan to eliminate noise.  Nothing about using hardware to chnage hardward scans though.  http://www.imaging-resource.com/SCAN/KM5400II/KM5400IIA.HTM

See my first paragraph above.

Alan, you may want to do some tests with your scanner.  Does the scanning software provide a focusing adjustment?  If so, try playing with it to see if you can see or hear anything that indicates a mechanical adjustment.  I assume your scanning software includes a master exposure adjustment.  If so, play with it to see if the scan times vary or the light intensity varies.  I’m not sure you’ll learn anything, but it may be worth a try.
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: JimAscher on January 06, 2011, 12:47:24 pm
I may already have mentioned this, but for adjusting focusing on my Epson Perfection 3170 scanner I have purchased BetterScanning's custom film holder, but which just arrived and I haven't tested it yet.   http://www.betterscanning.com/
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: dmerger on January 06, 2011, 03:12:37 pm
Very interesting, Jim.  I hope it works out well for you. How do you determine when you have achieved optimum focus?  Trial and error?  My Minolta has a very effective, easy to use focusing meter. I imagine it would be a lot more difficult to manually focus a scanner without such a meter or something similar.
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: JimAscher on January 06, 2011, 04:04:27 pm
Very interesting, Jim.  I hope it works out well for you. How do you determine when you have achieved optimum focus?  Trial and error?  My Minolta has a very effective, easy to use focusing meter. I imagine it would be a lot more difficult to manually focus a scanner without such a meter or something similar.

Perhaps.  We'll (meaning I'll) wait and see.  There are elaborate instructions with it.

 http://www.betterscanning.com/scanning/ep_adjust.html 
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: tokengirl on January 06, 2011, 05:47:51 pm
I have the Epson V750, which comes with Silverfast AI in addition to the EpsonScan software, and the glass tray for wet scanning.  I also purchased the VueScan software.  And the wet scanning kit from Aztek.  I have been wrestling with this stuff for a few months now, trying this that and the other, experimenting with assorted film holders, etc.

*NOTE: If you are one of those people that manages to get 36 keepers on a roll of film, stop reading now.  You probably shouldn't be using a flatbed scanner anyways.  But if you're like me and most other people and you have a couple of shots on each roll that you love and the rest is just dreck, keep reading.  Here are my conclusions. YRMV, depending on how much patience you have.

Here's what the Epson is really good at:  batch scanning at 1200 dpi quickly so that you can evaluate your images and pick out the couple of gems.  This is best accomplished by using Epson's software in full auto mode, and with Digital ICE turned OFF so keep things moving along quickly.  If you establish good dust control habits, a couple of clicks with the clone stamp in your favorite photo editor for stray dust is all you'll need to produce scans that are perfectly acceptable for e-mailing and posting on the web.

Silverfast.  What can I say about Silverfast.  If you're the type of person who enjoys activities such as pushing water uphill with a fork, Silverfast was absolutely made for you.  However, if you have a life outside of film scanning, Silverfast just seems like a really bad joke.  It's klunky, slow, and the UI is terrible.  And unfortunately, it does not have any magical powers that will turn your Epson flatbed into a Nikon Coolscan.  If you want to try it, go ahead.  But just remember these four little words:  I TOLD YOU SO.

VueScan is a little less user-unfriendly than Silverfast, and I admit I have managed some pretty nice B&W scans after considerable effort.  But then again, I have managed some pretty decent scans using the Epson software with very little effort.  VueScan is DEFINITELY faster than Silverfast when scanning at the same resolution.

So, after batch scanning and picking out my couple of gems, what do I do?

I take my picks and put them in a negative carrier from an old Beseler enlarger, and set it on top of a lightbox.  Then I photograph my negative with my Canon 5DMkII and 100mm macro lens, and import the file into Lightroom.  For slide films, I make any adjustments needed in Lightroom.  For B&W negatives, I desaturate and take care of any stray dust spots in Lightroom, then send it to Photoshop for inversion, levels and curves adjustments.  The quality level of the final result is just so far ahead of what the Epson can do, it's not even funny.  I haven't really been doing this with color negatives, mainly because for whatever reason, I never seem to take any really worthwhile pictures with C41 film.  But I have a Photoshop plug-in called ColorPerfect that will take care of the inversion & correction for the orange mask, and has a bunch of assorted film profiles.  It seems to work just fine, but I haven't really put much time into evaluating it.

The Epson flatbeds are good scanners if you have reasonable expectations.  They are versatile and a good value for the money.  But they do have their limits.
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: JimAscher on January 06, 2011, 05:59:46 pm

So, after batch scanning and picking out my couple of gems, what do I do?

I take my picks and put them in a negative carrier from an old Beseler enlarger, and set it on top of a lightbox.  Then I photograph my negative with my Canon 5DMkII and 100mm macro lens, and import the file into Lightroom.  For slide films, I make any adjustments needed in Lightroom.  For B&W negatives, I desaturate and take care of any stray dust spots in Lightroom, then send it to Photoshop for inversion, levels and curves adjustments.  The quality level of the final result is just so far ahead of what the Epson can do, it's not even funny.  I haven't really been doing this with color negatives, mainly because for whatever reason, I never seem to take any really worthwhile pictures with C41 film.  But I have a Photoshop plug-in called ColorPerfect that will take care of the inversion & correction for the orange mask, and has a bunch of assorted film profiles.  It seems to work just fine, but I haven't really put much time into evaluating it.

The Epson flatbeds are good scanners if you have reasonable expectations.  They are versatile and a good value for the money.  But they do have their limits.

You are something else again!  Unfortunately I gave away my negative carriers when I gave away my Beseler enlarger.  So, I guess I'm stuck with my Epson flatbed scanner.  Live and learn.
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on January 06, 2011, 06:38:49 pm
Hey, Toke!

You should write more reviews. This one is the perfect combination of informative and hilarious (on a par with the best banter between Michael and Schewe).

I'm happy to say I haven't sold my Beseler yet, so I have good film holders. I do have a copy stand, a Canon 5D (Mark I, but still pretty good), and a 100mm macro. I recently acquired the Kakuba light box that I think you recommended elsewhere, so I'm ready to give it a try.

Thanks for the great info.

Eric
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Alan Klein on January 06, 2011, 09:27:33 pm
Well, Epson answered me.  Don't laugh too hard.   Excuse me while I get back to Ronald E. and explain a couple of things to him..  Alan.

Quote
Response (Ronald E) - 01/06/2011 11:33 AM
Dear Alan,

Thank you for contacting Epson regarding the Epson Perfection V600 Photo. I apologize for any inconveniences you may been experiencing. The Epson Scan software will scan in your image but will not make any adjustments to the image unless told to.

Should you require further assistance with this issue, please reply without history (when possible), as our email system  contains all previous correspondence.

Thank you again for contacting Epson.

Ronald E
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Alan Klein on January 07, 2011, 05:36:25 pm
OK Epson answered.  What do you think?  I'm asking him to provide more details on the speed and numbers of passes if that has to do with ICE or no ICE scanning.  Anything you'd like me to ask him?  Alan

---------------------------------------------------------------
Response (Michael N) - 01/07/2011 07:59 AM
Dear Alan,

Thank you for contacting Epson regarding your Epson Perfection V600 Photo. It is my pleasure to respond to your inquiry.

Alan,
The operation of the scanner hardware itself is pretty basic. The Scanner's capture array lights up and
stays lit at the same intensity through the out the scan and as the array traverses across the glass. The settings can affect speed, number of passes that it's sampling. The light can not vary in intensity as that has to be consistent or you would certianly see it.

Should you require further assistance with this issue, please reply without history (when possible), as our email system contains all previous correspondence. If you have a different technical support issue, please submit another email request via our website (http://www.epson.com/support), and we will respond in a timely manner.

Thank you again for contacting Epson.

Michael N

Customer (Alan Klein) - 01/06/2011 06:55 PM
Ronald: Thanks for answering but your answer does not address my question. I don't think I explained my questioned carefully. What I want to know if if the scanner scans differently depending on the scanners settings? Or does all the changes take place in software after the scanner captures the image. In other words the scan process is the same regardless of the setting. The scanner light intensity stays the same for example or does it change in intensity or in speed?
Thanks
Alan
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: dmerger on January 08, 2011, 12:20:56 am
Epson’s answer doesn’t answer your basic question, which I believe is which adjustments are hardware versus purely software adjustments. In any event, Alan, I think you’re expecting way too much from Epson. Epson is a very large multi-national company with almost 80,000 employees. You may want to consider what type of person Epson likely employs to answer e-mails such as yours.  I’m not implying anything negative about the person, but what kind of background, experience and training do you expect such person has to be able to answer detailed questions on all Epson’s products, especially questions not addressed in any of the company literature?  Bearing that in mind, how much confidence would you have with any answer you’re likely to receive?   Wouldn’t it be easier, and likely more or at least as accurate, to perform tests on your own scanner?

From the little I’ve read about your scanner, it doesn’t appear to have a focus adjustment.  Your photos appear to be sharp, so maybe you don’t have a focus problem.  As I understand it, with your Epson, the only way to be sure you can’t get a better focus is to try altering the height of the film holder. 

Why are you scanning in 24 bit instead of 48 bit (more commonly referred to as 8 bit vs 16 bit)?  Even if PS Elements doesn’t support 16 bit, would Elements at least allow you to open 16 bit scans and convert to 8 bit for processing?  If so, I’d do so, but on a copy of the scan.  I’d save the original 16 bit scan in case in the future you have the ability and desire to process your scans again.

How do you handle color management and/or profiles with your Epson? 

Your photos look good, so you obviously are doing something right.  Could you do better?  I don’t know, maybe, maybe not, but you’re on the right track.
Title: Epsons comments to date
Post by: Alan Klein on January 08, 2011, 06:23:38 am
Dean:  My scan procedure with the V600 uses 2400 and 24 bit with ICE with all other adjustments done afterwards using PS ELements 8.  I get 100meg TIFF file for 6x7 medium format out of the scanner.  I don't use 48 bit becuase my readings don't seem to indicate there's much of a difference with the V600 (The V500 is basically the same scanner).  Here's an interesting discussion that also mentions that you can get multi passes with Vuescan but not with the EPson scan program that I use.  Their discussion doesn't seem to notice any diferences between 24 and 48 bit.  http://ddisoftware.com/tech/profile-prism/problems-with-canon-mp980-and-epson-perfection-v500-scanners


The couple of 8 1/2x11" prints I did were acceptable.  I suppose if I ever want to do a real blowup, I could send out that particular negatve and pay for a drum scan.  But for my current purposes of 8 1/2x11 " prints and posting on the web, it seems to be doing OK.

The pictures when scanned though are very very soft and requires a lot of sharpening afterwards.  The V600 negative holder is not height adjustable to focus.

Michael from Epson gave me a little more info below.  I gave him a follow up question regarding scans passes during no ICE scans. We'll see what he says Monday.  Here's his latest responce to me.  I thought it interesting that he provided a Nikon link to explain ICE.

Here are his responses to date.

 Discussion Thread
 Response (Michael N) 01/07/2011 03:48 PM
Dear Alan,

Thank you for contacting Epson regarding your Epson Perfection V600 Photo. It is my pleasure to respond to your inquiry.

Digital ICE performs multi-sampling and each pass is offset a little bit and then "Software algorithms" perform the restoration by comparing the offset of each pass. They look at what each offset has in the area of the last offset. Powering of the lamp is not something scanners do. You cannot dim LED lights. All the scanners are using LEDs as light sources now. Digital ICE slows the scanning down on any device where it is a feature but typically lets you control the amount of sampling or passes. I've used this feature many times and I must say it's quite remarkable as to what it can do.

Details regarding Digital ICE and process.
http://support.nikonusa.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2604/~/what-is-digital-ice%3F

Should you require further assistance with this issue, please reply without history (when possible), as our email system contains all previous correspondence. If you have a different technical support issue, please submit another email request via our website (http://www.epson.com/support), and we will respond in a timely manner.

Thank you again for contacting Epson.

Michael N
 Customer (Alan Klein) 01/07/2011 02:55 PM
Thanks Michael. You've been very helpful. I know that ICE effects the number of passes although I'm not sure about the speed when selecting ICE.
Does the speed and are the number of passes effected when there is no ICE selected? In other words, does the Epson program modify the results of color and lighting after the scan or do the non-ICE selection also effect the scan speed and number of passes so that the captured data is different?
Thanks again.
Alan
----- Original Message
-----
From: Epson Support
 
 Response (Michael N) 01/07/2011 07:59 AM
Dear Alan,

Thank you for contacting Epson regarding your Epson Perfection V600 Photo. It is my pleasure to respond to your inquiry.

Alan,
The operation of the scanner hardware itself is pretty basic. The Scanner's capture array lights up and
stays lit at the same intensity through the out the scan and as the array traverses across the glass. The settings can affect speed, number of passes that it's sampling. The light can not vary in intensity as that has to be consistent or you would certianly see it.

Should you require further assistance with this issue, please reply without history (when possible), as our email system contains all previous correspondence. If you have a different technical support issue, please submit another email request via our website (http://www.epson.com/support), and we will respond in a timely manner.

Thank you again for contacting Epson.

Michael N
 Customer (Alan Klein) 01/06/2011 06:55 PM
Ronald: Thanks for answering but your answer does not address my question. I don't think I explained my questioned carefully. What I want to know if if the scanner scans differently depending on the scanners settings? Or does all the changes take place in software after the scanner captures the image. In other words the scan process is the same regardless of the setting. The scanner light intensity stays the same for example or does it change in intensity or in speed?
Thanks
Alan





Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Alan Klein on January 12, 2011, 07:56:25 pm
Here's Epson's last response.  It appears that the LED light does not get adjusted at any time (see earlier post) and during non-ICE operation there is only one scan.  If that's the case, I don't see how it makes a difference if you post process the scanned image and skip processing in the scanner.  The setting sapplied in the scanner are just changing the scanned image data.  There are no hardware changes to the scan process.  Alan.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Alan,

Thank you for contacting Epson regarding your Epson Perfection V600 Photo.

The scanner reverts to one-pass scanning when Digital ICE is turned off--greatly reducing scanning/processing time. All settings selected in the driver are applied as usual to the scanned image.


Jack D

Customer (Alan Klein) - 01/07/2011 07:55 PM
Dear Michael: If ICE is off, how does the scanning process change as you change the settings for Histogram, or color, or brightness?
Alan
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Mark D Segal on January 12, 2011, 08:20:37 pm
Here's Epson's last response.  It appears that the LED light does not get adjusted at any time (see earlier post) and during non-ICE operation there is only one scan.  If that's the case, I don't see how it makes a difference if you post process the scanned image and skip processing in the scanner.  The setting sapplied in the scanner are just changing the scanned image data.  There are no hardware changes to the scan process.  Alan.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Alan,

Thank you for contacting Epson regarding your Epson Perfection V600 Photo.

The scanner reverts to one-pass scanning when Digital ICE is turned off--greatly reducing scanning/processing time. All settings selected in the driver are applied as usual to the scanned image.


Jack D

Customer (Alan Klein) - 01/07/2011 07:55 PM
Dear Michael: If ICE is off, how does the scanning process change as you change the settings for Histogram, or color, or brightness?
Alan

The fact that certain settings (non-ICE) affect speed tells you that there are hardware-based adjustments taking place, and I know for a fact that depending on the scanner model, there are. Some handle exposure changes by changing lamp brightness, others by scan time (consider it akin to a camera which alters light coming through the lens by adjusting the aperture or the shutter speed). It is simply incorrect to conclude from your discussions with Epson tech support that all adjustments are software-based, hence you cannot necessarily conclude that it makes no difference for any image whether you make some adjustments pre-scan or all adjustments post-scan. Alan, trust me on this - I've gone into this issue extensively with people who know a great many of these machines from the inside out and who earn their living by programming the scanning process from one model to the next.
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Alan Klein on January 12, 2011, 10:13:34 pm
My comments as were Epsons were only for the Epson V600.  I have no idea what other scanners are doing.  Where di Epson say this scanner's speed changes?  Epson said nothing about speed changes but they did say there are no LED light changes and the unit only scans once, except in ICE mode and that's only to eliminate dust or correct tears in a picture.  If there are no physical changes in the scan, the processing has to be software after the scan.  The sensor capability is fixed just like in a camera.  You can change the ISO, but it must apply to the whole film. 

Certainly if another scanner changes the speed, it effectively is adjusting the exposure in much the same respect as a camera when you change the shutter or aperture.  That would apply to the whole image in the scanner like it does in a camera. You can't separate one part of the image from the other.  That would be great if you could because if scanners can do that then so could cameras.  Just think.  Built in HDR with one shot!  You can darken the too bright sky and brighten the too dark mountains. 

One question I have though.  If other scanners are changing speed, what does that accomplish?  If the original film is too dark, so you slow the scan (or raise the scanner sensors output like raising the ISO in a camera), but all that will do is make the dark areas nosier because the film does not contain the data to begin with.  No?

Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Mark D Segal on January 12, 2011, 10:57:47 pm
Alan, please go back to reply #41 and read what you report Epson told you:

<The operation of the scanner hardware itself is pretty basic. The Scanner's capture array lights up and
stays lit at the same intensity through the out the scan and as the array traverses across the glass. The settings can affect speed, .............>

Once you see them say the settings can affect speed, that's hardware. Lower/higher speed increases /decreases the amount of light hitting the CCD per pass which increases/decreases the exposure. The ultimate light gathering capability of the CCD is fixed but the amount of light sent to it is variable in different scanners either by altering scan speed or lamp brightness or a combination thereof.

BTW, both the latest version of Vuescan Professional as well as SilverFast provide a multi-exposure function which is useful for bringing out deep shadow detail that may otherwise get lost. This also works with hardware in both applications for all applicable scanners, as it makes two scans. Epson Scan does not support this capability so the Epson tech can't be expected to know about it.
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Alan Klein on January 12, 2011, 11:25:10 pm
I interpreted "speed" to mean the overall scan time because the second part of the sentence refered to multiple passes which only happens in ICE.  But you may be right that Epson does change the speed of the scan.  If as you say that other programs  do that, why can't Epson?  How would I test that in my scanner?  What setting would I change?  I wonder how effective that is?  Another forum said that they couldn't see a dfifference.  If the shadow area is dark, how is the scanner going to pull more data?  Isn't it just doing what PS does with shadow brightness sliders?  Have you experimented with this and what's the difference you see?  If you take a properly exposed negative, and raise the exposure by slowing the speed, wouldn't you blow the highlight portion? 


My other question is how does the multiple scan process work with te other programs? 
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Mark D Segal on January 13, 2011, 08:33:15 am
I interpreted "speed" to mean the overall scan time because the second part of the sentence refered to multiple passes which only happens in ICE.  But you may be right that Epson does change the speed of the scan.  If as you say that other programs  do that, why can't Epson?  How would I test that in my scanner?  What setting would I change?  I wonder how effective that is?  Another forum said that they couldn't see a dfifference.  If the shadow area is dark, how is the scanner going to pull more data?  Isn't it just doing what PS does with shadow brightness sliders?  Have you experimented with this and what's the difference you see?  If you take a properly exposed negative, and raise the exposure by slowing the speed, wouldn't you blow the highlight portion? 


My other question is how does the multiple scan process work with te other programs? 

I'm fairly certain my interpretation of what the Epson tech told you is correct. If you are asking me why Epson doesn't provide multi-exposure as an option in Epson Scan, I have no idea. You would need to ask them. Multi-exposure is an option provided in some scanning software to make the scanner do two passes over the image at different exposure levels. It's effectiveness is very image-dependent - there are no general rules here. When dealing with dark shadows, the key issue is "how dark" - if they are at the bottom of the luminosity scale, there's not much that can be done. If they have any workable tonal gradation, the second exposure pass of a multi-exposure algorithm would attempt to increase CCD saturation in those areas to pull-up whatever information may be there. It is definitely not just doing what PS does with shadow sliders. The latter remaps pixel brightness, the former actually tries to drag out embedded information by exposing it more. Different procedures, which can produce different outcomes, again depending on the image. By using a combination of exposure and highlight control at the scan stage you can protect the highlights - again the specifics depending on the image, and on how the scanning software developer has written the multi-exposure algorithm. The best way of answering these questions to your satisfaction is to do your own testing.
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: fdisilvestro on January 13, 2011, 09:54:07 am
According to Silverfast, multiexposure is achieved by performing a double scan with increased exposure time in the second scan. Not every scanner allow this. Anyway, the epson V600 is supported in this functionality from Silverfast version 6.6.1r4 or newer

For some reason, ICE is not supported by Silverfast for the Epson V600.

Here is a description of multiexposure: http://www.silverfast.com/highlights/multi-exposure/en.html (http://www.silverfast.com/highlights/multi-exposure/en.html)
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Mark D Segal on January 13, 2011, 09:56:39 am
According to Silverfast, multiexposure is achieved by performing a double scan with increased exposure time in the second scan. Not every scanner allow this. Anyway, the epson V600 is supported in this functionality from Silverfast version 6.6.1r4 or newer

For some reason, ICE is not supported by Silverfast for the Epson V600.

Here is a description of multiexposure: http://www.silverfast.com/highlights/multi-exposure/en.html (http://www.silverfast.com/highlights/multi-exposure/en.html)

The reason why SilverFast does not include ICE is because it has instead its own, tecvhnically superior "iSRD".
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: fdisilvestro on January 13, 2011, 10:15:07 am
The reason why SilverFast does not include ICE is because it has instead its own, tecvhnically superior "iSRD".

Ok, but you need the HDR version of silverfast to use iSRD on supported Epson scanners. ICE is supported for other Epson scanners (like V700, V750, 4990) in the SE and AI versions.
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Mark D Segal on January 13, 2011, 10:45:13 am
Ok, but you need the HDR version of silverfast to use iSRD on supported Epson scanners. ICE is supported for other Epson scanners (like V700, V750, 4990) in the SE and AI versions.

Correct.
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Alan Klein on January 13, 2011, 05:54:27 pm
That's interesting about the shadow areas.  I notice in my 35mm Ektachrome scans this problem is more prevalent than in the 120 Velvia, Ektar and Fuji film scans.  And more so in positive film than negative whioch probably explains why the new Portra negative films are good for scanning.  You can see the shadow differences in my FLickr gallery between 35mm and 120. 

Too bad about the ICE because I do use it and it helps in PP.   

What experience have you all had with the double scan?  The sample Silverfast showed is nice but it is their web page and I expect them to show their best.  I'd be more interested in the results you're getting.  For example, on shots that are exposed properly, much difference?  On shots that are over or under-exposed, much difference?  When do you most need and use it?
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Mark D Segal on January 13, 2011, 07:21:18 pm
That's interesting about the shadow areas.  I notice in my 35mm Ektachrome scans this problem is more prevalent than in the 120 Velvia, Ektar and Fuji film scans.  And more so in positive film than negative whioch probably explains why the new Portra negative films are good for scanning.  You can see the shadow differences in my FLickr gallery between 35mm and 120. 

Too bad about the ICE because I do use it and it helps in PP.   

What experience have you all had with the double scan?  The sample Silverfast showed is nice but it is their web page and I expect them to show their best.  I'd be more interested in the results you're getting.  For example, on shots that are exposed properly, much difference?  On shots that are over or under-exposed, much difference?  When do you most need and use it?

For the longest time during the film era I used colour negative materials because I considered they were preferable for reproducing deep quarter-tones and natural colour. They were grainier, but that's the trade-off. As for multi-exposure - a mixed bag - as I mentioned before, its impact varies according to the image. On the whole I have found it subtle.
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: fdisilvestro on January 13, 2011, 08:54:07 pm
Multiexposure would make a difference in the deep shadows of slide film. It is useful for underexposed / underdeveloped slides. I haven´t find advantages scanning negative film.

Here is an example of a underexposed (maybe underdeveloped) velvia 50 slide.

Epson V700, Silverfast AI Studio, scan at 2400 dpi.

The first image is the full frame with one border (where the camera prints data) scanned with multiexposure.

The next two frames show a detail of the scan (including part of the frame with camera data), first with single pass scan and the last with multiexposure. I adjusted the levels to emphasize the noise difference, both samples with the same adjustment.

I conclude there is a noticeable difference in terms of noise and DR

Edit: Just as a reference, the second exposure takes more than double the time than the first one
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Alan Klein on January 13, 2011, 10:38:41 pm
Those are interesting.  I don't really see more details in the image in the second one but the noise is definitely reduced. Are you Multi Sampling or Multi Exposing?  http://www.silverfast.com/highlights/multi-exposure/en.html  Could you get rid of the noise PP?

The second scanned picture's black area appears blacker which is good but that could because the noise is reduced.  The scans might be cancelling the noise in the same way the ICE does in its double scans.  Silverfast says noise is reduced because of the multi scans even though it's not operating ICE protocol.  Also notice the negative border is very noisy as well; it's not only the picture area that's noisy.  Is that normal?

I really appreciate you posting these images.  My main concern however is for basically normally exposed pictures.  I'm not trying to do magic with badly exposed pictures.  I'm not going to use those bad shots anyway.  When would you use Multi-Exposing on normally exposed pictures and what kind of results can you expect?  Can these results be basically duplicated by using lightening shadows feature in PS?  I  wouldn't want to spend a lot of extra money on Silverfast and spend all that extra time scanning for only marginal improvement over PS.  Plus with my V600 I'd lose ICE.
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Alan Klein on January 13, 2011, 11:11:03 pm
Here's my latest question to Epson and their latest reply in this saga.  They're saying that slowing the speed will not increase the Dmax (3.4 in the V600).  Of course SIlverfast says their second slow Multi-exposure scan does increase Dmax.  Is that just hype on Silverfast's part to sell a product?  If slowing exposures do what Silverfast says, it would be in Epson's marketing benefit to include Multi-exposure in their own software.  But if these slow scans do not increase Dmax as Epson says, then Epson wouldn't provide it and don't.  So who really knows the truth?  The last picture above created with a slow Multi-exposure scan does not seem to have more details then the second single scan picture, nor is it more exposed.  It only has less noise.
---------

 Response (Jack D) 01/13/2011 02:46 PM
Thank You for Contacting Epson


Dear Alan,

Thank you for contacting Epson regarding your Epson Perfection V600 Photo.

The ability to accurately capture shadows and highlights when scanning film is determined by the scanner's dynamic range not speed. The reference to this specification comes under "Optical Density" (same thing as dynamic range). This scanner has a 3.4 Dmax. The maximum possible is 4.0 -- available on higher end scanners. If you need to zoom in on a scanned image to see more detail or you want to make large printouts then you must increase the resolution. This generates more scan lines per inch. Your scan time will increase; that's to be expected.


Thank you again for contacting Epson.


Jack D
 Customer (Alan Klein) 01/12/2011 08:55 PM
Jack: What do you mean?: " All settings selected in the driver are applied as usual to the scanned image." Does the scanner change speeds across the film by changing any of the settings or is this just changes made to the image after the scan? My question has to do with exposure in the scan. If the scan goes more slowly, then it could pick up and see the darker areas in the shadows better? Does this happen?
Thanks
Alan
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: degrub on January 14, 2011, 02:48:45 am
Isn't Silverfast's technique essentially the same as what some use in HDR ? Expose for the light end, expose for the shadows, combine the images in some fashion - and thus see more of the tones overall ?

i think the "slower pass" is just a longer exposure time at each sample line - not what Epson was responding.

ICE and multisampling are attacking two different issues - ICE for media defects and MS for stochastic noise - essentially random electronic noise generated in the sensor.

Multiexposure seems to be useful when the image in the  media has more dynamic range than the scanner can capture in one exposure.

Frank
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: fdisilvestro on January 14, 2011, 06:06:45 am
Those are interesting.  I don't really see more details in the image in the second one but the noise is definitely reduced. Are you Multi Sampling or Multi Exposing?  http://www.silverfast.com/highlights/multi-exposure/en.html  Could you get rid of the noise PP?

The second scanned picture's black area appears blacker which is good but that could because the noise is reduced.  The scans might be cancelling the noise in the same way the ICE does in its double scans.  Silverfast says noise is reduced because of the multi scans even though it's not operating ICE protocol.  Also notice the negative border is very noisy as well; it's not only the picture area that's noisy.  Is that normal?

I really appreciate you posting these images.  My main concern however is for basically normally exposed pictures.  I'm not trying to do magic with badly exposed pictures.  I'm not going to use those bad shots anyway.  When would you use Multi-Exposing on normally exposed pictures and what kind of results can you expect?  Can these results be basically duplicated by using lightening shadows feature in PS?  I  wouldn't want to spend a lot of extra money on Silverfast and spend all that extra time scanning for only marginal improvement over PS.  Plus with my V600 I'd lose ICE.

I used Multiexposure, which is a newer function that performs 2 scans (you can´t change it) at different exposures (scan time). Multisampling on the other hand, performs multiple scans (up to 16) at the same exposure and then averages them which also reduces noise.

The purpose of Multiexposure is not to increase detail, is to reduce noise. Even if theoretically you cannot increase DR, the effect of reducing noise is to increase the "useable or apparent" DR.

The borders of the image are noisy because they are black (slide) and I intentionally changed the levels to emphasize the differences between both scans (Middle tones to 1.51)

I applied some noise reduction in PP with Nik Define 2.0 to both scans (one pass & multiexposure). The first image shows the singe pass with NR, the second the Multiexposure with NR. Applying NR to the single pass scan result in an image with noise similar to the original scan with multiexposure, but apparently with less contrast. Applyinig NR to the multiexposure gives probably the best result.

You can download a free trial demo version of Silverfast and do your own test before actually spending any money
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Mark D Segal on January 14, 2011, 09:13:31 am
Alan, what Epson told you about DMax is correct. The point LSI makes about SilverFast needs to be understood in context. Let us say you have a scanner capable of achieving DMax 4.0, just for sake of illustration. Let us say without multi-exposure your media is such that in the scan everything from 3.7 to 4.0 is blocked-up. Then the effective DMax of that image scan is 3.7, in the sense that the blackest black below which you can't distinguish anything is positioned at 3.7. If by using Multi-exposure it unblocks the detail contained between 3.7 and 4.0, the effective DMax approaches the scanner's physical limit.

The primary purpose of Multi-exposure in SilverFast is not to deal with noise - it is to improve tonal separation in the quarter-tones. However, because it makes two passes, it scrambles random noise and thereby at the same time achieves much of the benefit from multi-sampling which takes longer and doesn't give you the exposure benefit. This stuff by the way is explained in the SilverFast manual which is available on their website.

I agree with Francisco's suggestion that you can download any of this software free and do your own experimenting over a trial period. That's really the best way to see what works most suitably for your own needs.
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: AFairley on January 14, 2011, 02:29:22 pm
It seems to me that at some point with all of this you hit the point of diminishing returns (particularly because consumer scanners have registration problems with multi-pass scans) and you would be better off shooting bracketed expsoures with a DSLR, HDR-style (a Canon D5MkII will give you the equivalent of 3500 ppi scans; a 12MP sensor will give you almost 3000 ppi).
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Alan Klein on January 14, 2011, 05:33:55 pm

HDR is an interesting concept but most of what I've seen doesn't look real.  You just can't get the same effect as Grad ND filters.  I have to try using PS Elements.  There's a processs, I forget the name, where you can combine two pictures and take the lower exposed and layer over the higher exposed or vice versa.  THat might work better but I only tried it once with digital.  Of course, I usually brackets my landscape film shots so it should work with film as well.  Anyone compare this PS process vs. using scan Mult-exposure?  What's the difference?

My continuing communications saga with Epson has its next installment below.  Their response is positive about Silverfast although they didn't provide details regarding its use with the V600.  I'll ask them what they think about it with the V700 to flesh out its operation value with Epson scanners.  They've been relatively open and helpful in their answers all along.  I only wish I can talk to them on the phone.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Response (Jack D) 01/14/2011 07:14 AM
 
Dear Alan,

Thank you for contacting Epson regarding your Epson Perfection V600 Photo.

Silverfast is a very sophisticated application and driver and is bundled with the V700. It includes many features that the Epson Scan driver does not. For what you want to achieve on the V600 it may be worth your while to get a trial version and test it. We have no test data on this driver and the V600 so we cannot comments on its performance.


Thank you again for contacting Epson.


Jack D]
 Customer (Alan Klein) 01/13/2011 08:40 PM
I'm thinking of getting Silverfast scan software for my V600. I believe Silverfast comes standard with your V700. Silverfast claims that they increase the details and raising the Dmax in the shadow and very light areas in their MultiExposure scan where the second scan is done slower and they somehow combines the first regular scan. Is this true? It seems in conflict with what you said below. Here's their link. http://www.silverfast.com/highlights/multi-exposure/en.html

thanks
Alan
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: dmerger on January 14, 2011, 05:38:21 pm
AFairley, I agree. CCD technology has much improved since I purchased my Minolta 5400.  It would be interesting to compare a slide scan from my Minolta to a photo of the slide taken with a full frame DSLR and macro lens.  Unfortunately, I don’t have such a camera.

As has been noted, multi-sampling is designed to reduce scanner noise.  I’ve tested it on my scanner and I see no difference.  Maybe my scanner has so little noise that there isn’t any benefit.  I’m not sure, but others have reported the same results.  I guess if a scanner has the capability to multi-sample, then give it a try see if it helps.

Also, as has been noted, multi-scan can serve two purposes.  It can be used to reduce noise much like multi-sampling, it can be used to scan at more than one exposure which are then blended much like an HDR image, or both.

However, every scanner with a hardware exposure adjustment can multi-scan for “HDR” purposes regardless whether it’s supported by the scanner software.  Moreover, if you’ve bracketed your film exposures, you can also get additional benefits.  The key to making it work easily, however, is Photoshop’s auto align function.

Here’s how it works:  Do two or more (more than two can be better) scans of your film with different exposures.  Better yet, if you have bracketed film exposures, use them.  Then load the scans into PS in layers, with the darkest exposure at the bottom, then the next darkest, etc.  Auto align the layers.  Use the “Blend If” sliders to blend the different layers. Make sure the blends are very gradual so that you get a seamless blend.  With this method, you can easily target which portions of each layer you want to use. Once you get the hang of it, it’s pretty easy.  Don’t expect miracles, however, there is only so much information you can squeeze into one photo.

Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Alan Klein on January 14, 2011, 05:45:09 pm
Dean  Does the process you describe work in Elements 8?  It sounds similar to what I tried but I don't recall "Blend If" slide and auto'align. Alan
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Mark D Segal on January 14, 2011, 06:07:25 pm
HDR is an interesting concept but most of what I've seen doesn't look real.  You just can't get the same effect as Grad ND filters.  I have to try using PS Elements.  There's a processs, I forget the name, where you can combine two pictures and take the lower exposed and layer over the higher exposed or vice versa.  THat might work better but I only tried it once with digital.  Of course, I usually brackets my landscape film shots so it should work with film as well.  Anyone compare this PS process vs. using scan Mult-exposure?  What's the difference?

My continuing communications saga with Epson has its next installment below.  Their response is positive about Silverfast although they didn't provide details regarding its use with the V600.  I'll ask them what they think about it with the V700 to flesh out its operation value with Epson scanners.  They've been relatively open and helpful in their answers all along.  I only wish I can talk to them on the phone.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Response (Jack D) 01/14/2011 07:14 AM
 
Dear Alan,

Thank you for contacting Epson regarding your Epson Perfection V600 Photo.

Silverfast is a very sophisticated application and driver and is bundled with the V700. It includes many features that the Epson Scan driver does not. For what you want to achieve on the V600 it may be worth your while to get a trial version and test it. We have no test data on this driver and the V600 so we cannot comments on its performance.


Thank you again for contacting Epson.


Jack D]
 Customer (Alan Klein) 01/13/2011 08:40 PM
I'm thinking of getting Silverfast scan software for my V600. I believe Silverfast comes standard with your V700. Silverfast claims that they increase the details and raising the Dmax in the shadow and very light areas in their MultiExposure scan where the second scan is done slower and they somehow combines the first regular scan. Is this true? It seems in conflict with what you said below. Here's their link. http://www.silverfast.com/highlights/multi-exposure/en.html

thanks
Alan

Alan, honestly - best things you could do for yourself - go the SilverFast website, find the reference articles from IT Enquirer - there are several on how multi-exposure works. Read them. Download the SilverFast manual where multi-exposure is explained. Read it. Download SilverFast ai 6 Studio for your scanner in demo mode and try it. You'll make much more headway than asking rounds upon rounds of questions from web forums and tech support, because in the final analysis that is an efficient investment of time you are going to have to make anyhow before it makes sense spending money.
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: dmerger on January 14, 2011, 06:28:40 pm
Dean  Does the process you describe work in Elements 8?  It sounds similar to what I tried but I don't recall "Blend If" slide and auto'align. Alan

I don't know.  I don't have Elements 8 and have never used it.
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Alan Klein on January 15, 2011, 09:00:14 am
Certainly I can experiment with Silverfast, Vuescan etc to see what I get.  Frankly, I don't want to waste my time and energy trying to prove to myself that these programs are worth it. Especially since the results I'm getting with Epson's own software seems to be pretty good.   So far I haven't seen any pictures posted by anyone on any site that really show any meaningful differences in results using other software.  I'm not trying to be argumentative, but a lot of what I've read is verbal and does not present pictorial proof.  I lot of it is just some allegiance to products that someone bought. I'm usually guilty of that too.  Show us the proof.

Additionally, I think it's important to hear how the Epson scanners work from the manufacturer. I have read so many differing opinions in this thread and on other web sites about what's going on in the scan process and software settings.  I thought it's important to go to the source for clarifications.  I thought others would like to know also.  I realize it's like pulling teeth to get complete answers from Epson, which is why I call it a "saga", but we seem to be getting some clarifications, although many are not thorough. 

Epson seeems to be confirming that at least on their V600 that making setting changes using Epson's software except for ICE dust reduction does not change either the scan speed, the LED light output or the quantity of scans. Because these hardware changes do not occur during the scans, you cannot improve the scan itself.  The Epson settings manipulate the results after the scan as an image editing program in much the same way as Photoshop will in post processing the scan file with the scan settings at neutral.  Except for ICE, the image captured by the scan will not be different regardless of the Epson settings.

However, in recent emails, Epson also says that using Silverfast can provide better scanning results at least with the V700 because they have done tests with it.  I've asked Epson for additional details on their test results. I'll post these when they respond.  Epson has not done similar Silverfast testing with their V600 which is the unit I use. So they could not comment but suggested trying Silverfast on my own.  I've read Silverfast's web and they claim to increase the Dmax over the scanner's basic Dmax capability by double scans called Multi-exposure.   

I hope Epson will give us hints on how to best use Silverfast to improve scans as well as additional details on their Silverfast test results.  And yes I understand that Epson and Silverfast and purveyors and advertisers have their products to protect.  But I think we're all pretty smart enough to separate the hype from the reality in their answers.   
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Mark D Segal on January 15, 2011, 11:06:25 am
Certainly I can experiment with Silverfast, Vuescan etc to see what I get.  Frankly, I don't want to waste my time and energy trying to prove to myself that these programs are worth it. Especially since the results I'm getting with Epson's own software seems to be pretty good.   So far I haven't seen any pictures posted by anyone on any site that really show any meaningful differences in results using other software.  I'm not trying to be argumentative, but a lot of what I've read is verbal and does not present pictorial proof.  I lot of it is just some allegiance to products that someone bought. I'm usually guilty of that too.  Show us the proof.

Additionally, I think it's important to hear how the Epson scanners work from the manufacturer. I have read so many differing opinions in this thread and on other web sites about what's going on in the scan process and software settings.  I thought it's important to go to the source for clarifications.  I thought others would like to know also.  I realize it's like pulling teeth to get complete answers from Epson, which is why I call it a "saga", but we seem to be getting some clarifications, although many are not thorough. 

Epson seeems to be confirming that at least on their V600 that making setting changes using Epson's software except for ICE dust reduction does not change either the scan speed, the LED light output or the quantity of scans. Because these hardware changes do not occur during the scans, you cannot improve the scan itself.  The Epson settings manipulate the results after the scan as an image editing program in much the same way as Photoshop will in post processing the scan file with the scan settings at neutral.  Except for ICE, the image captured by the scan will not be different regardless of the Epson settings.

However, in recent emails, Epson also says that using Silverfast can provide better scanning results at least with the V700 because they have done tests with it.  I've asked Epson for additional details on their test results. I'll post these when they respond.  Epson has not done similar Silverfast testing with their V600 which is the unit I use. So they could not comment but suggested trying Silverfast on my own.  I've read Silverfast's web and they claim to increase the Dmax over the scanner's basic Dmax capability by double scans called Multi-exposure.   

I hope Epson will give us hints on how to best use Silverfast to improve scans as well as additional details on their Silverfast test results.  And yes I understand that Epson and Silverfast and purveyors and advertisers have their products to protect.  But I think we're all pretty smart enough to separate the hype from the reality in their answers.   

If you want pictorial proof with your scanner and your set-up and your other post-processing applications, you WILL have to "waste your time" running your own tests. I can't think of how much time I've "wasted" doing such things, but the end result is that I know what I'm doing without wasting my time and other peoples' time asking for all kinds of stuff I'll have to see for myself after all.

Epson's recommendations to you are fine. Epson is one of the most responsive firms in the industry. Epson already told you that exposure controls scan time, so don't keep repeating that nothing happens at the scan stage that you can't do in the same way with Photoshop Elements.

I've explained to you how to interpret what LaserSoft Imaging means by the increase of DMax with Multi-exposure, and their own explanation of it on their website is quite clear. I've also told you that the net result of it tends to be subtle and depends very much on the image. No software can change the hard-wired DMax of a scanner but it can increase the apparent (or what they call "effective") dynamic range of the scanned image.

Yes, it is important to separate hype from reality, but before you can do that correctly you need to gain adequate experience from research, reading, trial and error; fortunately there is enough free material on the internet including on this website, and enough free demo time from the software vendors to make it free and easy for you to do that. And speaking of free time, I'm pretty well up to my limit on this thread, if not beyond it. Alan - last word - roll up your sleeves and do some real work. You might be pissed-off with me for saying this, but later on once you find it rewarding you'll be grateful for the advice. Take care.
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Alan Klein on January 15, 2011, 12:33:19 pm
Mark:  I'm sorry that you are so upset because I do things differently then you.  And I have put in the time to 4 and 5am on many many mornings over the last few months trying to learn and experiment and squeeze the best out of my V600 scanner.    And I've posted all those pictures that I scanned identifying negatives from slides and 35mm from 120's, even identifying each and every shot by film brand so people can see what the scanner does and could make recommendations to me and to others and learn.  I have yet to find anyone else who has spent the time posting as complete a record of their scans.  And I do appreciate you taking the time to personally look at them and provide your advice on how I could do better.

Now I'm exhausted. Now I want the manufacturer to be responsive and answer my questions to help get me to the next level.  I deserve that information.  I paid for their scanner.  I've already written Epson and complained that I'm not getting complete information from their personnel.   If you don't want to hear what they have to say, you can just not open this thread any more.  If you do, I'm sure you'll have more to contribute and your experience would be welcomed by me and others.  Your choice.  Thanks. Alan.
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Mark D Segal on January 15, 2011, 01:33:42 pm
Mark:  I'm sorry that you are so upset because I do things differently then you.  And I have put in the time to 4 and 5am on many many mornings over the last few months trying to learn and experiment and squeeze the best out of my V600 scanner.    And I've posted all those pictures that I scanned identifying negatives from slides and 35mm from 120's, even identifying each and every shot by film brand so people can see what the scanner does and could make recommendations to me and to others and learn.  I have yet to find anyone else who has spent the time posting as complete a record of their scans.  And I do appreciate you taking the time to personally look at them and provide your advice on how I could do better.

Now I'm exhausted. Now I want the manufacturer to be responsive and answer my questions to help get me to the next level.  I deserve that information.  I paid for their scanner.  I've already written Epson and complained that I'm not getting complete information from their personnel.   If you don't want to hear what they have to say, you can just not open this thread any more.  If you do, I'm sure you'll have more to contribute and your experience would be welcomed by me and others.  Your choice.  Thanks. Alan.

Alan, what makes you think I'm upset because you do things differently? This forum is for people to help each other. So all I'm trying to do is to nudge you to do some experimenting you seem reluctant to do. I have no reason to be upset no matter what you do - doesn't affect me in the least. As for the manufacturer - yes, you paid for their scanner, but there is a reasonable limit of what you can expect from them. You bought a V600. You didn't buy a V700. Your scanner didn't come packed with SilverFast, so you can't expect Epson to spend their tech support resources advising you on stuff related to a product you didn't buy. Nor can you really expect other people on web forums to be posting suites of images in support of this or that point they are trying to make. It takes time to prepare the images in a way that they will show as intended over the internet and post them, and like you and me, they all have other lives too. This is a free resource and as it is we all get a helluva lot more than we pay for, so we should be grateful. Cheers, Mark

My approach to a discussion thread is really very simple - when I begin to see we are spinning wheels, I begin to think that time is being wasted. I think this thread has been an interesting one
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: dmerger on January 15, 2011, 02:19:47 pm
  But I think we're all pretty smart enough to separate the hype from the reality ... .   

Maybe so with respect to Epson's answers, but I'm not so sure about information on the internet generally.

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-shill-marketing.htm
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Alan Klein on January 15, 2011, 02:25:07 pm
Well Mark I'm glad you're still here.  My questions to Epson had to do wih their V700 and Silverfast.  I ddin't ask them to provide Silverfast info for V600 because they didn't test it with the V600.  Hopefully Epson will provide some info that is valuable.  When I get it,  I'll share it here.  Maybe someone else could use that info too.  From what I've seen, the V700 seems to do much better work than my V600.  The Dmax difference is 4.0 vs 3.4. The pictures seems a lot sharper but that could be PP.  If I move up, it would be interesting to get a handle on Silverfast now.     If the possibilities seems strong that it's is worth trying (something that I don't feel yet),  then I'll spend the time playing with it.  Right now I have to catch up on all the sleep I missed with the first round experimenting with the V600 and Epson scan.  Cheers.  Alan
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Alan Klein on January 17, 2011, 12:23:56 pm
Well, Epson answered and didn't give much to bite into.  They pretty much leave it up to the buyers of their equipment to figure out if Silverfast is worth it.  No more email questions from me.  I'm going out to shoot some pictures.

Response (Jack D) 01/17/2011 08:17 AM
Thank You for Contacting Epson


Dear Alan,

Thank you for contacting Epson regarding your Epson Perfection V600 Photo.

According to users in the field, Silverfast gives you more control in how you set up and configure settings to achieve your desired scan. For users who want to have more options then SIlverfast is a good choice. For users who like a more simple user interface then Epson Scan is a fine choice. There's a wealth of information on this product starting with the vendor -- http://www.silverfast.com. Please visit the website for information. Free demo versions are available for download. We encourage you to try the product and see for yourself if you think it would meet your scanning requirements.

Thank you again for contacting Epson.


Jack D
 Customer (Alan Klein) 01/14/2011 02:40 PM
Could you describe what advantages Silverfast gives you with the V700 over the Epson scan software. If the film shot that I'm scanning is exposed properly in the camera, will Silverfast provide any additional value and how over the Epson software?
Tks
Alan
 
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Mark D Segal on January 17, 2011, 01:53:15 pm
Well, Epson answered and didn't give much to bite into.  They pretty much leave it up to the buyers of their equipment to figure out if Silverfast is worth it.  No more email questions from me.  I'm going out to shoot some pictures.

Response (Jack D) 01/17/2011 08:17 AM
Thank You for Contacting Epson


Dear Alan,

Thank you for contacting Epson regarding your Epson Perfection V600 Photo.

According to users in the field, Silverfast gives you more control in how you set up and configure settings to achieve your desired scan. For users who want to have more options then SIlverfast is a good choice. For users who like a more simple user interface then Epson Scan is a fine choice. There's a wealth of information on this product starting with the vendor -- http://www.silverfast.com. Please visit the website for information. Free demo versions are available for download. We encourage you to try the product and see for yourself if you think it would meet your scanning requirements.

Thank you again for contacting Epson.


Jack D
 Customer (Alan Klein) 01/14/2011 02:40 PM
Could you describe what advantages Silverfast gives you with the V700 over the Epson scan software. If the film shot that I'm scanning is exposed properly in the camera, will Silverfast provide any additional value and how over the Epson software?
Tks
Alan
 


His advice is right-on-the-money.
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: tokengirl on January 19, 2011, 04:56:16 pm
AFairley, I agree. CCD technology has much improved since I purchased my Minolta 5400.  It would be interesting to compare a slide scan from my Minolta to a photo of the slide taken with a full frame DSLR and macro lens.  Unfortunately, I don’t have such a camera.


Can't help with the Minolta part, but here is a B&W negative (Ilford HP5+ developed in Rodinal) that I shot on a Hasselblad XPan (24x65mm) and then photographed the negative with a Canon 5DMkII/100mm macro:

Entire image:
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5084/5276023314_f4ece52fce_o.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/msmambo/5276023314/)

A small crop from the negative:
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5249/5277096337_c6b43487d8_o.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/msmambo/5277096337/)

As you can see, with the dSLR, you can focus down to the grain of the film.  I don't know about the Minolta scanner, but you sure can't so that on an Epson flatbed.  The Epson will give oyu something that kind of looks like grain, but it isn't - it's just noise.
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Mark D Segal on January 19, 2011, 05:17:37 pm
Nice photograph. The Minolta Scan Elite 5400 was/is a very high quality scanner, and won an award in Europe (forget whose) when it was released some years ago. I was always pleased with the sharpness of the scans (mostly from colour negative films); it's only real drawback is that it's very slow. I've never tried digitizing film with my DSLR so I can't offer comparisons either, but the film grain emerged pretty darn sharp from that Minolta scanner! I've since replaced it with a Nikon Super Coolscan 5000ED. As both of them are off the market and will become increasingly difficult to service, I'm keeping the two of them "just in case". I can also confirm that they do produce sharper results "out of the box" than I can achieve with my Epson flatbed, which itself is not all that bad, but much better on medium format.
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: dmerger on January 19, 2011, 06:42:08 pm
Wow, tokengirl, very impressive.  Without scanning the same film with my scanner, I couldn't say which produces better results.  Based on what I see, however, I'd say that your set up is more than up to the task.

Yes, my Minolta scanner also resolves film grain in a manner that looks similar to your example.  In fact, I usually manually focus my scanner on the film grain.
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Alan Klein on January 20, 2011, 01:34:34 am
My 35mm Ektachromes scanned with an Epson V600 I believe shows the grain such as here. http://www.flickr.com/photos/alanklein2000/5265304000/in/set-72157625526207614/

My other shots in the Scuba set of 35 mm or least most of them had noise reduction applied in Elements.  The MF scan didn't have noise reduction and they didn't show grain.  But the grain is hard to see even in the original negatives. 
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: AFairley on January 20, 2011, 09:03:56 pm
Nice post, Tokengirl.  My Coolscan IV will capture grain like that -- but the problem is that on a lot of slides the curvature of the slide exceeds the scanner's DOF, even setting the focus point to try to split the difference, and you can't stop down with a scanner.  My Epson V700 will resolve grain too, but there is more smeariness to the image, in my opinion from the extra glass surfaces between the scanner lens and the slide.
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Mark D Segal on January 20, 2011, 09:18:42 pm
Nice post, Tokengirl.  My Coolscan IV will capture grain like that -- but the problem is that on a lot of slides the curvature of the slide exceeds the scanner's DOF, even setting the focus point to try to split the difference, and you can't stop down with a scanner.  My Epson V700 will resolve grain too, but there is more smeariness to the image, in my opinion from the extra glass surfaces between the scanner lens and the slide.

I'm not 100% certain about this, but I do remember reading somewhere that these Epson scanners (V700/V750) have a device built-in akin to an AA filter, and that may be a key factor causing the "smeariness" you are seeing. A dedicated Nikon film scanner of the Coolscan IV/V class definitely produces crisper results. But the Epson is no slouch on medium format transparencies, I've had the occasion to observe - probably because they need less magnification - after all it's the same hardware.
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: tokengirl on January 21, 2011, 07:26:34 am
My Coolscan IV will capture grain like that -- but the problem is that on a lot of slides the curvature of the slide exceeds the scanner's DOF, even setting the focus point to try to split the difference, and you can't stop down with a scanner.  My Epson V700 will resolve grain too, but there is more smeariness to the image, in my opinion from the extra glass surfaces between the scanner lens and the slide.

The DOF issue is a problem with my V750 too.  The nice thing about the 5DMkII/10mm macro lens is that you can stop down to solve that problem (I use an aperture of f8, which is supposedly where that lens is the sharpest).  Also, when doing this, I enable the automatic lens corrections in Lightroom - makes a noticeable difference.

The other problem with the Epson scanners that I have noticed is that it introduces some chromatic aberration when scanning in color at higher resolutions.  :-[
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: chichornio on December 16, 2012, 12:26:17 pm
I have done some test using Epson V600 and Epson software and I've got very impressive results. This is my workflow, preparing the image for printing in my z3200ps 44". All are 120-220 negatives, mostly Kodak Portra 160.

1- Scan the file with no color correction at all. 48 bits at 3200dpi, original size.
2- Open the image in PS and assign a Adobe RGB 1998 profile.
3- I do all the toning and color corrections, also all the sharpenning tasks with unsharp mask
4- Rezise the image with 600ppi
5- Print at native 600ppi in LR

I also do some minor HSL color correction in LR, because it´s very intuitive.
I hope it helps somebody.
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Alan Klein on December 18, 2012, 09:12:32 pm
chichornio:  Do you have any samples you can share with us?  Thanks.  Alan.
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: dmerger on December 18, 2012, 11:02:32 pm
Chichornio, just curious, why do you assign aRGB to your scans in PS?  Doesn’t you scan software embed a profile when you scan?

I used to do all my corrections in PS, but switched to ACR, and now LR, because for me I found ACR/LR easier to use and I could get better results.  So again, just curious, why do you prefer PS?
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: chichornio on December 19, 2012, 10:32:13 am
just curious, why do you prefer PS?

PS gives me more tools in sharpenning. Because the scanned image from the Epson V600 looks flat, I prefer to make subtle sharpenning with layers in PS. Then, I apply a last stage of sharpenning in the print module in LR depending which paper I´ll going to use. Remember that my workflow it´s made for printing. If I´m going to scan some negs for sharing in the web, I would scan the file at lower resolution and color corrected using the Epson software, assigning a sRGB profile.
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: dmerger on December 19, 2012, 11:05:55 am
I’m not questioning why you use aRGB instead of sRGB, but just wondered why your Epson scan software doesn’t embed a color profile when you scan. 

(BTW, I use ProPhoto and sharpen in PS, but use PhotoKit Sharpener to do it.  Also, the way I scan, my scan software doesn’t embed a profile to my scans, but in PS I first assign my scanner profile to my scan and then convert to ProPhoto.)
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Mark D Segal on December 19, 2012, 01:49:29 pm
..............

(BTW, I use ProPhoto and sharpen in PS, but use PhotoKit Sharpener to do it.  Also, the way I scan, my scan software doesn’t embed a profile to my scans, but in PS I first assign my scanner profile to my scan and then convert to ProPhoto.)


Good workflow.
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: chichornio on December 19, 2012, 08:44:39 pm
I dramaticaly changed my workflow again. I´m posting a full resolution jpg to share with you (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7858877/img021.jpg). The file has no color correction and sharpenning at all. It´s a raw file from my scanner with just the resizing applied in PS (600ppi and Adobe RGB profile applied)
The film it´s a 220 Portra 160ASA, taken handheld with a Fujica G690BL with a 100mm lens.
Scanned with a Epson Perfection V600 Photo and Epson software version 3.83ES, emulsion side up and original Epson film holders (I scan one film at a time and I use the card supplied with the scanner to flatten the film)

The steps I followed are these:
1- 48 bits color
2- 4800ppi
3- Only Digital ICE applied
4- In the color tab, Continuos Auto exposure, gamma 2.2, level low (my software it´s in Spanish, sorry for the translation)
4- Saved as a 16 bits tif, with an original Epson sRGB profile
5- It´s a huge file, but I think it´s worth.

Then I open the file in PS, convert to Adobe RGB profile and do all the toning, color correction and sharpening tasks. I stick with Adobe RGB because my printer recognize this color space and the driver doesn´t do any other conversion.
I wouldn´t go for more than 24" on the largest size of the print (that´s a lot!!! for a prosumer flatbed scanner). If I need to print bigger, I would go for a drumm scanner for sure.

Any opinion are very welcome!!
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: dmerger on December 19, 2012, 10:14:44 pm
Maybe Mark or someone with more experience with the Epson scan software will chime in, but I assume that the Epson sRGB profile is just the regular sRGB.  sRGB has a much smaller color gamut than aRGB, so you're not capturing all the colors you would if you instead scanned with aRGB, which would also eliminate one color conversion.  Note that just converting to aRGB doesn't get back those lost colors.  Once their gone, you can't get them back.
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Mark D Segal on December 20, 2012, 06:47:46 am
Maybe Mark or someone with more experience with the Epson scan software will chime in, but I assume that the Epson sRGB profile is just the regular sRGB.  sRGB has a much smaller color gamut than aRGB, so you're not capturing all the colors you would if you instead scanned with aRGB, which would also eliminate one color conversion.  Note that just converting to aRGB doesn't get back those lost colors.  Once their gone, you can't get them back.

A scanner profile should be characterizing the performance of the scanner, in which case it would profile the scanner's gamut reproduction capability, which may not be the same thing as any of the common flavours of RGB. Whether the user then chooses to render the images in sRGB or ARGB or ProPhoto RGB or some other RGB is a separate decision. And yes, sending a scan to file in sRGB is very limiting. I don't recommend it either unless one knows absolutely for sure the images are destined to the Internet or a narrow gamut device and nothing else, ever.
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: chichornio on December 20, 2012, 11:14:06 am
Whether the user then chooses to render the images in sRGB or ARGB or ProPhoto RGB or some other RGB is a separate decision.
May be I don´t get it right... In the Epson Software, if I choose the Auto Continuos Exposicion, gamma 2.2 in the color tab, I don´t have the option of choosing a profile. I do have the option when I save the 16 bits tif to insert or not a profile. If I select yes, the software automatically insert the Epson sRGB profile. If I don´t select that option, I can insert the profile later when I open the file in PS. What should I do? If I´m scanning the 6x9 fim at 48bits color, isn´t all the color information already in the tif saved regardless of the icc profile I choose to insert?
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: dmerger on December 20, 2012, 01:40:30 pm
Chichornio, it seems very strange that your only option is to use sRGB.  I’m not familiar with the Epson scan software, so maybe that’s the case, but I can hardly believe so. Isn’t there some color management tab where you can select the profile to use? It may be worthwhile to play around with your software to see if you can find another option.

If you don’t insert a profile when scanning, then typically you’d have a scanner profile that you’d assign to your scans when you open them in PS.  A scanner profile may be included in your scanner software.  Usually it would be installed when you install the software.  So, when you open a scan in PS, see if you can find your scanner profile and assign that profile to your scan, then convert to aRGB.  Another alternative is to create your own scanner profile, but I won’t go into that possibility now.

(Maybe a little explanation of how your scanner works will help.  I apologize if I’m rehashing information you already know.  Your model of scanner captures color in a way that is likely unique to your scanner, not a standard sRGB or aRGB color space.  Hence, the usual procedure to assign your scanner profile first rather than a straight assignment of a standard color profile.  If you select a standard color profile in your scanner software, your software effectually does such a two step process. In other words, say you have a computer program that translates documents. If you have a document written in French and want it translated to English, you’d first tell the program that the original document is in French (in other words you’d assign French to that document), then convert that document into English.  Instead, if you took the French document and just told the translation program that your document was in English (in other words you assigned English), you’d end up with gibberish.  Well, assigning the wrong color profile to a scan is similar, but the results are not as dramatic as in my translation analogy.

Regarding your last question, the short answer is no.  I hope you can bear with another analogy.  Think of your scanner color as water.  Your scanner can output a number of different colors to fill up a gallon jug.  sRGB, however, only holds a quart.  So, to get your scanner colors to fit into a quart container, your scanner software has to throw away a bunch of colors.  Once those colors are gone, you can’t get them back. Actually, the colors that don't fit into the gamut of sRGB, for example, are changed into colors that do fit.  So, you end up with a smaller number of colors.
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: chichornio on December 20, 2012, 04:04:05 pm
Thanks dmerger for your detailed explanation. I´m very novel to film scanning. I came from the digital world. Now I´m shooting some 6x9 negatives with my Fujica G690BL and I have a HP 3200ps 44" printer and a Epson V600 Photo. After several test I did (even with Vuescan and Silverfast) I came to the conclusion I would like to have the best scanned image I can get out of the Epson V600 with almost no intervention of me. Like a RAW file. I´m posting the option that the Epson Software gives me, and I can say that this workflow gave me the best TIF file from the many others test I did. If you saw the JPG I posted previously in this thread, with no color correction and sharpenning at all, the scanned file looks very promising for postprocessing and printing. I did a crop and printed it on Satin paper, and I really like the results (specially in the shadows area. They look very well defined with excellent gradients)
Regarding the icc profile, I think the best way to manage it if I understood you right, it´s to save the file with NO icc profile inserted, and then assign a proper profile in PS (could be a RGB Epson that come bundled with the software, or Adobe RGB, or Prophoto).
Any other suggestions will be very welcome.
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Alan Klein on December 20, 2012, 04:47:10 pm
Do all these color gamuts really matter for practical purposes of scanning landscapes.  I'll be adjusting in post anyway to a certain extent.  I'm not trying to match fabic colors for a shirt manufacturer.  What's the point of going beyond sRBG?
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: dmerger on December 20, 2012, 05:18:29 pm
Chichornio, in the Epson configuration panel it appears that if you select "ColorSync" and for "Target" select "Adobe RGB" the Epson scan software will start with your scanner profile and convert to aRGB.  If I'm correct, when you open your scan in PS it should already have aRGB embedded.

I'm not sure about the "Source (Scanner)" option.  I assume that that is the profile for your scanner.  What other choices are offered?  

You might also try checking the "No Color Correction" option and see what that does.

If you don't embed a profile with your scan software, then in PS you'd want to first assign to your scan the profile which the scan has.  Depending on how you have your scan software configured, the profile your scan has could be your scanner profile, sRGB, aRGB or some other profile.  

Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: dmerger on December 20, 2012, 05:32:34 pm
I think that a large color gamut is important for my landscape photos.  Let me try another analogy.   You want to make a colorful mosaic.  You can choose two boxes of tiles.  Box 1 contains tiles with 75 different colors. Box 2 contains tiles with all the 75 colors as Box 1, but also has tiles with 25 more colors, mostly more saturated colors. 

Box 1 can make a very nice, colorful mosaic. The mosaic made with Box 2, however, looks better.  It’s more colorful, has finer, more subtle tones, has more snap and looks more lively and lifelike.

In my analogy, Box 1 would be sRGB, Box 2 would be aRGB.
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Tim Lookingbill on December 20, 2012, 05:46:50 pm
Quote
You might also try checking the "No Color Correction" option and see what that does.

That's the Raw state of the scanner and is used to build a custom ICC profile by scanning a color target with that setting selected. It turns all scanner tonality and other image enhancing features off. I wouldn't recommend it unless dim, dull, flat scans makes a good starting point for post processing.

Just FYI you should check out the results this guy's getting from MF film scans using a DSLR:

http://photo.net/digital-darkroom-forum/00b7Fk

The amount of detail captured is incredible compared to the Epson scan.
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: dmerger on December 20, 2012, 05:55:59 pm
I´m very novel to film scanning. I came from the digital world. 

Film scanning still is the digital world.  The essential part of your scanner is its CCD light sensor.  Digital cameras use the same CCD technology (some use CMOS sensors, but for the present purposes are equivalent).  Your scanner is nothing more than a specialized digital camera. 

Obviously there are significant differences between a scanner and dSLR, but on a very basic level they are the same.  I guess what I’m getting at is that a lot of the concepts you already know from using a digital camera also apply to scanning, such as color management.  So, I think you’re on the right track.
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: chichornio on December 20, 2012, 05:57:34 pm
Chichornio, in the Epson configuration panel it appears that if you select "ColorSync" and for "Target" select "Adobe RGB" the Epson scan software will start with your scanner profile and convert to aRGB.  If I'm correct, when you open your scan in PS it should already have aRGB embedded.

Yes, I´ve tried that option, but when you select ColorSync option, the auto continuous exposure is deselected. And I´ve gotten much better results in my scans using the auto continuos exposure, gamma 2.2 value and the slider to low (turns a softer scan, but with a room for later sharpening). So if I stick with the bundled Epson software, it´s better to save the file with no icc profile embebbed and assign a RGB profile in PS.
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: dmerger on December 20, 2012, 06:17:23 pm
I’m not sure what auto continuous exposure does, but if it’s working for you, use it. So, when you use it, and you have selected embed profile in the other panel, what happens?  Still no profile embedded when you open your scan in PS?
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: dmerger on December 20, 2012, 06:27:23 pm
I wouldn't recommend it unless dim, dull, flat scans makes a good starting point for post processing.

Tim, in my opinion, and the opinion of some people who do scanning as a business, dim, dull, flat scans do make a good starting point for post processing.  In fact, for positive film scans, I start with a 16 bit linear file.  You can’t get more dim, dull and flat than that!  Others have other opinions.

I’ve seen lots of examples of people using dSLRs to “scan” their film.  The one you linked looks very good.  I’m surprised more people aren’t doing it.

EDIT:  Tim, who has better BBQ, Lockhart or Luling?  The best BBQ restaurant?
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Mark D Segal on December 20, 2012, 09:11:00 pm
Do all these color gamuts really matter for practical purposes of scanning landscapes.  I'll be adjusting in post anyway to a certain extent.  I'm not trying to match fabic colors for a shirt manufacturer.  What's the point of going beyond sRBG?

Alan,

Retaining the maximum gamut the scanner can deliver DOES matter, depending on what you intend to do with the scan - now and far into the future. No-one wants to rescan, so keep a master file with all the tonality you can achieve. Today's best inkjet printer gamuts exceed ARGB, and our wide-gamut high-res displays (e.g. the better Eizos and NECs are reading within a hare's breath of ARGB). The real issue is the constraint of the scanner gamut, which depends on the scanner you are using, and the wider the colour space, the more important it is to scan in 16-bit.

You can embed the scanner profile at the scan stage, or after the scan stage, but embedding a correct, quality scanner profile is really important in order to get tone and colour in good enough shape that you won't need huge amounts of remapping in editing software, whether at the scan stage or thereafter.
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: chichornio on December 20, 2012, 09:38:59 pm
Alan,

Retaining the maximum gamut the scanner can deliver DOES matter, depending on what you intend to do with the scan - now and far into the future. No-one wants to rescan, so keep a master file with all the tonality you can achieve. Today's best inkjet printer gamuts exceed ARGB, and our wide-gamut high-res displays (e.g. the better Eizos and NECs are reading within a hare's breath of ARGB). The real issue is the constraint of the scanner gamut, which depends on the scanner you are using, and the wider the colour space, the more important it is to scan in 16-bit.

You can embed the scanner profile at the scan stage, or after the scan stage, but embedding a correct, quality scanner profile is really important in order to get tone and colour in good enough shape that you won't need huge amounts of remapping in editing software, whether at the scan stage or thereafter.

I fully agree with you Mark. That´s why a keep an almost 1gb 4800ppi 48 bits scanned 6x9 file (the most I can get from my Epson V600) in my hard disk. I recently purchased an Epson Blue ray external writer to keep my files in a "safe" place. Epson V600 or others prosumer film scanners aren´t the best choice to print bigger, but if I want to print now or later, better to keep the file with all the color information those scanners are willing to produce. I think prosumers flatbed scanners like Epson´s or Canon´s are going to dissapear, sooner o later. I´m waiting for a new generation of film scanners that can make our life easier. Film ain´t gonna to disappear, I hope...
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Tim Lookingbill on December 21, 2012, 12:32:36 am
Quote
EDIT:  Tim, who has better BBQ, Lockhart or Luling?  The best BBQ restaurant?

Couldn't tell you, Dean. Haven't tried either of them even though I lived 3 years of my childhood in Luling during the late '60's.

In New Braunfels the only decent smoky tasting BBQ is at Schwabs, an old rundown looking 1940's clapboard shotgun shack on business highway 35. I buy raw meat at the grocer and have them cook it on their aged and seasoned smoke pits at around 70¢ a lb. It's cheaper and beats anything for flavor I've come across in Texas for the price.
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Mark D Segal on December 21, 2012, 02:02:22 am
I fully agree with you Mark. That´s why a keep an almost 1gb 4800ppi 48 bits scanned 6x9 file (the most I can get from my Epson V600) in my hard disk. I recently purchased an Epson Blue ray external writer to keep my files in a "safe" place. Epson V600 or others prosumer film scanners aren´t the best choice to print bigger, but if I want to print now or later, better to keep the file with all the color information those scanners are willing to produce. I think prosumers flatbed scanners like Epson´s or Canon´s are going to dissapear, sooner o later. I´m waiting for a new generation of film scanners that can make our life easier. Film ain´t gonna to disappear, I hope...

Don't stand on one foot waiting. This era is coming to an end. Manufacturers have been vacating the field. It will always be around, and there will be a new product or two, but the film era is essentially behind us - except for the smallish minority of photographers who continue to prefer film, a few specialized uses for which film remains necessary, and our archives of prints, slides and negatives - this being the major remaining field for volume scanning.

As for scanners, Epson and Canon flatbed scanners capable of scanning film will be around for a long time to come because there is always a market for reflective scanning, but film is not their primary purposes and they aren't optimized for it. Unfortunately, the choice of new, high quality film scanners has boiled down to very little. The one I woild watch for, but not cheap, is the Plustek 120. It should be hitting the market soon, is a dedicated high resolution film scanner and will accept 35mm and 6*6 (and perhaps 6*9 - not sure) media. Another current choice for 35mm users is the Plustek 8200. Once you want a Nikon 5000 or 9000, you are into the resale market and they have become very expensive. Not to be neglected - the old Minolta 5400 Scan Elite II for 34mm. It was an excellent product, but also now hard to find. It's predecessor, the Scan Elite 5400 (1) was a great product, but very slow.

Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: dmerger on December 21, 2012, 12:04:57 pm
the Scan Elite 5400 (1) was a great product, but very slow. 

That is about as big an understatement as I can imagine.  I use the original 5400, and slow doesn't begin to tell the story!  It makes nice scans, however.

I think that the new film scanners are already here.  They're called dSLRs.  ;)
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: chichornio on December 21, 2012, 12:48:12 pm
The one I woild watch for, but not cheap, is the Plustek 120. It should be hitting the market soon, is a dedicated high resolution film scanner and will accept 35mm and 6*6 (and perhaps 6*9 - not sure) media. Another current choice for 35mm users is the Plustek 8200. Once you want a Nikon 5000 or 9000, you are into the resale market and they have become very expensive. Not to be neglected - the old Minolta 5400 Scan Elite II for 34mm. It was an excellent product, but also now hard to find. It's predecessor, the Scan Elite 5400 (1) was a great product, but very slow.
Thanks Mark for your advice. Unfortunately none of the scanners you mentioned above I can buy in Argentina. We have very strong restrictions in our Custom Office so I can´t even buy an used item from E-Bay and make it send it to my country. The Plustek 120 looks very promising, but at almost 2K in b&h it´s very intimidating. Only Chile can import this item near my country. I´m doing some research if I can buy it there with a friend of mine and share the costs. The good with the Plustek is that comes with the latest version of Silverfast. A good saving...
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: dmerger on December 21, 2012, 01:06:43 pm
Do all these color gamuts really matter for practical purposes of scanning landscapes.  I'll be adjusting in post anyway to a certain extent.  I'm not trying to match fabic colors for a shirt manufacturer.  What's the point of going beyond sRBG?

Alan, if you have access to a wide gamut monitor, you can easily see for yourself the difference between aRGB and sRGB.  Take some photos that have always been in a wide color space, such as aRGB or ProPhoto, and with some bright saturated colors, especially reds, magentas, yellows, and gold.  View them in aRGB and as converted to sRGB.  The difference is readily apparent.  Of course you could also print both versions, but using a monitor is quick and doesn’t cost anything.
Title: Re: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures
Post by: Mark D Segal on December 22, 2012, 06:19:19 am
Thanks Mark for your advice. Unfortunately none of the scanners you mentioned above I can buy in Argentina. We have very strong restrictions in our Custom Office so I can´t even buy an used item from E-Bay and make it send it to my country. The Plustek 120 looks very promising, but at almost 2K in b&h it´s very intimidating. Only Chile can import this item near my country. I´m doing some research if I can buy it there with a friend of mine and share the costs. The good with the Plustek is that comes with the latest version of Silverfast. A good saving...

Chichornio, in your situation I would recommend being cautious about becoming an early adopter of new equipment that hasn't been tested and proven in the market yet. The Plustek 120 will be a brand new product. As far as I know it has not yet been subjected to third-party testing/reviews, and not having been in the mass market yet, there isn't an accumulated track record on how reliable it is in terms of quality control and uniform performance of each production unit - this will take some months to accumulate once it is released into retail distribution and enough people have bought it and used it. Especially in light of the issues you have getting such products into Argentina, if it doesn't work correctly for you, there could be other issues returning it.