Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: lighthunter on December 02, 2010, 03:17:04 am
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Hi all
Iam now collecting information in order to open a local print shop
while surrffing in the net i found that the best photo printers are came from epson and canon
I found canon printers less expensive than epson Why?!
For example
The 24" 12 color canon imagePROGRAF iPF6350 cost ~$3000
The 24" 10 color Epson Stylus Pro 7900 cost ~$4000
The 17" 10 color Epson Stylus Pro 4900 Costs ~$2500
Can these printers print on pvc roll ?!
How cost (ink only) printing a Square meter ?
Which has best IQ?
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Hi all
Iam now collecting information in order to open a local print shop
while surrffing in the net i found that the best photo printers are came from epson and canon
I found canon printers less expensive than epson Why?!
For example
The 24" 12 color canon imagePROGRAF iPF6350 cost ~$3000
The 24" 10 color Epson Stylus Pro 7900 cost ~$4000
The 17" 10 color Epson Stylus Pro 4900 Costs ~$2500
Can these printers print on pvc roll ?!
How cost (ink only) printing a Square meter ?
Which has best IQ?
Boy oh boy...
No disrespect intended... but if you are opening a print shop and are asking these kind of questions you sure have a super steep learning curve to climb, a lot of work and a long hard road ahead of you.
1. Asking which is better Canon or Epson is like asking do you prefer BMW or Mercedes or Nikon or Canon - each has its quirks, pros and cons.
2. Cost of ink varies per printer depending on ink cartridge size, price, humidity and which way the wind is blowing.
My suggestion - go to as many printing workshops as you can. Learn as much as you can. Buy and Read as much as you can. There are many fine recommended reading books noted in this forum. Andrew Rodneys book on CM would be a great start.
The sort of questions you are asking are; not to be blunt - the wrong questions. Which means you are way behind the eight ball in knowledge in printing. I dont want to sound overly negative or discourage you from opening a print shop; if that is what you want to do then chase the dream and do it. But do your homework first and get the knowledge. Best of luck.
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Iam live in a place that max print size in it is A3 with 20 years old machines with not dedecated print shop at all
if i open mine i will be the first ::)
and by the way
Nikno D700 Better than Eos 5dmark2
Eos 7d is better than Nikno 300s
Nikon D3s is better than Canon eos 1dmark4
when asking at cost off Square meter i mean nearly if there is +or - 10% it will not matter
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Iam live in a place that max print size in it is A3 with 20 years old machines with not dedecated print shop at all
if i open mine i will be the first ::)
and by the way
Nikno D700 Better than Eos 5dmark2
Eos 7d is better than Nikno 300s
Nikon D3s is better than Canon eos 1dmark4
when asking at cost off Square meter i mean nearly if there is +or - 10% it will not matter
No worries, sounds like you have it all in hand and under control. :o
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He's right about the D700 though ;)
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Just to stick my nose in here... I invited this gentleman to seek advice here on LL because he was only getting a lot of misguided advice from hobbyists on another forum. I thought that LL would be the place where he'd find some respectful, knowledgeable advice about high end wide format printers. It should be obvious that he is from a region where printing services are scarce and he wants to start an entrepreneurial business from his home.
Can't someone get past the condescending remarks and offer some constructive advice?
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I'd lean toward a Canon because of the thermal head properties (less clogging, user replaceable).
Image quality is different when magnified 10x, but when viewed at normal distances the only thing that'll matter is the quality of the image itself.
What computer system will host the printer? Windows or Macintosh?
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Thanks alot i will use windows
what about running cost?
i mean for example if i print an A2 photo >> which one will cost me less?
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Costs vary according to paper type and the overall density of the images being printed. There's no way to get a very close, accurate cost on every print.
There are two ways to estimate costs:
- After every print session, look at the readouts of your printer and calculate how much ink & paper was used. I think all the professional printers now indicate how much ink for each print job.
- Go to a site like this (http://canonipf.wikispaces.com/Ink+Usage) and make loose estimates.
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Iam live in a place that max print size in it is A3 with 20 years old machines with not dedecated print shop at all
if i open mine i will be the first ::)
and by the way
Nikno D700 Better than Eos 5dmark2
Eos 7d is better than Nikno 300s
Nikon D3s is better than Canon eos 1dmark4
when asking at cost off Square meter i mean nearly if there is +or - 10% it will not matter
If you live in a place that is off the beaten track, I would think that reliability and some way to get service and parts is more important than any other properties, as either Epson or Canon can make excellent images. I think this is more important, say than the price of consumables.
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He's right about the D700 though ;)
Depends what you use it for!
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I have had two Epson 13" printers (still using one for monochrome) and currently use a 3800 for colour work. It's time for a large format printer and I've just ordered a 44" Canon 8300. I don't have any Canon experience yet, but I can tell you why I chose the 8300 and also share how I found my Epson's to work with.
- Epson has been serious about pigment ink printing for a very long time and as such, they have a very large market share. For this reason their printers are well understood and supported.
- Canon has become serious about pigment ink printing more recently (in the last few years) and they are priced more aggressively to gain market share. This makes them a great value, as they are excellent printers.
- While the Epson user base is larger, I have found the base of Canon users to be solid and very helpful. This forum is great in that regard. I also encourage you to visit the Canon ImagePROGRAF Printer Wiki (http://canonipf.wikispaces.com/) as part of your research. Many of your questions will find answers there.
- My Epson 3800 has been an excellent printer. Clogs are few and far between. Having said that, there seem to be more clogging issues with Epson printers than with Canon, even considering the user base size. The different head technologies used play into that. Where I live it gets very dry in the winter, which is one of the factors that seems to contribute to head clogging. I'm also a casual printer, and my printing is done in spurts. This is another factor in head clogging (infrequent vs. regular use). I anticipate fewer clogs, given my location and printing habits, with the Canon.
- While Canon's heads may be less prone to clogging (thermal vs. piezo heads), Epson's heads are capable of somewhat finer detail. The latest Canon printers seem to close this gap, but under close scrutiny Epson still wins (as Chris_Brown mentions).
- The latest Canon pigment ink seems to be more scratch resistant, have lower bronzing and lower gloss differential. The colour gamut is comparable, although somewhat different. Scott Martin has written a great Canon review, and comparison to the Epson and HP offerings (see http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/x300.shtml).
- Canon inks do better in longevity testing. You can some great archival testing information at Aardenburg Imaging & Archives (www.aardenburg-imaging.com).
- Epson's cut sheet handling is excellent. Canon's is not quite as strong, but still very capable.
- Both printers have special black and white printing modes. Epson however, has restricted third parties from developing black and white RIPS for their latest printers, whereas Canon has not. Having access to a product like True Black and White for full control over my black and white prints is important to me. That may, or may not, be true for you.
That's all I can think of for now. Best wishes in your decision, and your printing company.
Terry.
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I've been keeping a cumulative log of the cost of using my Epson 3800 since Octiover 2007 - hence three years of data. The cost of ink per sq. ft. printed is $ 1.33 CDN. It would be bess for an Epson 7900/9900 because they use larger cartridges and the cost of ink per ml is much less with larger cartridges. The cost of paper of course would be the same for the same paper in any printer. The newer Epson printers clog seldomly and produce first class quality results. If you are running a commercial service with these printers, reliability and punctuality of service is critical. I don't know where you are establishing this business, but I would strongly recommend that you check the reputation and logistics of the service providers very carefully before buying anything. Another important consideration is how easily the printers can be colour-managed. This is critical for the accuracy of the results and their predictability in terms of customer expectations. I've had quite a bit of experience colour-managing my Epson printers over the years, so I have confidence in the process involving the Epson line, but not Canon, so I can't give you any comparative idea about which models are easier to colour-manage than which, but here again I recommend you research comparative ease of colour management set-up for the various models you have in mind before buying.
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I know there are alternative surfaces that should work with both Canon and Epson printers, including Canvas, cloth, etc. No certain about vinyl, though.
For your market, what do your suppliers have the best access to for paper, ink and service?
As to print quality, once the print is on the wall, it would be hard to say that one image was printed with an Epson, another with a Canon. There would be variations between two prints, even with custom profiles, but each would be aesthetics, not absolute image quality.
I purchased my last printer, an Epson 9800 second-hand from a photographer moving on the Canon. He liked having new printers with service contracts but had used it once just before sale to update a few odds and ends on this printer. The printer before this was a used Epson 7600. No problems that a simple head cleaning wouldn't fix or replacement of a maintenance tank or cutting blade wouldn't fix by myself.
I've had the 9800 for three years and and 7600 for five and like you plan, I've done outside printing for select clients.
I purchased the 9800 to go larger (44 inches) and to do canvas. Both printers have paid their way through the years and I use them for my own work. If you can get your hands on a newer used printer, I don't think you'd have too many problems and could save money on the hardware.
Basically, I can give you "Kentucky windage" on the cost per square foot (multiply these by 10.76 to get square meters). Predominately, I use Epson Luster and Epson Matt paper, 24 inches, and 44 inch Fredrix canvas.
The paper is easy, Luster is generally about $100 to $110 for 100 feet, 24 inches, or 200 sf. That puts the price roughly at $0.50 per square foot. Canvas runs about $133 sf. Ink consumption on the 9800 is a maximum of 2 cc/sf, about another $1 roughly per sf. Not including supplies, maintenance, cleaning cycles, etc., consumables run roughly $1.50 per sf or about $16.15 per square meter where I live in California. I figure I need to double this to get my base expense when I'm printing hot and heavy, or about $3.00 sf on Luster, $32.30 sq. meter, just to keep the printer going. Included in my costs are the shipping of the materials. Paper at $0.50 per sf sounds great, but if you are paying $30 shipping to get it to you, that adds up quickly and pushes up the price drastically! For ink, I use the largest cartridges I can which will give you the lowest cost per cc of ink.
But at $3.00 sf, I'd go broke quickly. I still have to factor my computers, software, training, knowledge, electricity, building, rent, retirement, replacement, continuing education, etc., etc. Thus, I charge about $12-$15 per sf for paper, and double that for canvas, which I need to charge even more for the coatings I apply in addition to the extra handling and maintenance I've got to do.
What you need to do is find out what it will cost you to purchase the ink and ship it to you along with the paper.
For the printer, new, these things are quite large and come on a crate which if you have a loading dock, no problem to have unloaded. If you don't have a dock, you'll need a truck with a lift gate. That will cost more as will the freight, depending upon where you live. That much more to consider.
Have you checked Craigs List and eBay for used printers? There may be something within a short drive that you could purchase second-hand in good working order from someone either up- or down-grading that would work just fine.
If you do, you'll need a pick-up or enough room on the 9800 size printers of at least 2 meters and about 150 KG capacity. You'll also need at least a couple of friends with strong backs to help you set up your new printer and if you have stairs, like me, they've better be pretty burly to move it without dropping it!
HTH and good luck with your new endeavors!
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I have had two Epson 13" printers (still using one for monochrome) and currently use a 3800 for colour work. It's time for a large format printer and I've just ordered a 44" Canon 8300. I don't have any Canon experience yet, but I can tell you why I chose the 8300 and also share how I found my Epson's to work with.
- Epson has been serious about pigment ink printing for a very long time and as such, they have a very large market share. For this reason their printers are well understood and supported.
- Canon has become serious about pigment ink printing more recently (in the last few years) and they are priced more aggressively to gain market share. This makes them a great value, as they are excellent printers.
- While the Epson user base is larger, I have found the base of Canon users to be solid and very helpful. This forum is great in that regard. I also encourage you to visit the Canon ImagePROGRAF Printer Wiki (http://canonipf.wikispaces.com/) as part of your research. Many of your questions will find answers there.
- My Epson 3800 has been an excellent printer. Clogs are few and far between. Having said that, there seem to be more clogging issues with Epson printers than with Canon, even considering the user base size. The different head technologies used play into that. Where I live it gets very dry in the winter, which is one of the factors that seems to contribute to head clogging. I'm also a casual printer, and my printing is done in spurts. This is another factor in head clogging (infrequent vs. regular use). I anticipate fewer clogs, given my location and printing habits, with the Canon.
- While Canon's heads may be less prone to clogging (thermal vs. piezo heads), Epson's heads are capable of somewhat finer detail. The latest Canon printers seem to close this gap, but under close scrutiny Epson still wins (as Chris_Brown mentions).
- The latest Canon pigment ink seems to be more scratch resistant, have lower bronzing and lower gloss differential. The colour gamut is comparable, although somewhat different. Scott Martin has written a great Canon review, and comparison to the Epson and HP offerings (see http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/x300.shtml).
- Canon inks do better in longevity testing. You can some great archival testing information at Aardenburg Imaging & Archives (www.aardenburg-imaging.com).
- Epson's cut sheet handling is excellent. Canon's is not quite as strong, but still very capable.
- Both printers have special black and white printing modes. Epson however, has restricted third parties from developing black and white RIPS for their latest printers, whereas Canon has not. Having access to a product like True Black and White for full control over my black and white prints is important to me. That may, or may not, be true for you.
That's all I can think of for now. Best wishes in your decision, and your printing company.
Terry.
Thank you terryithese information helps me alot
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thanks alot >>this helps me alot
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By the way Can i print with these printers on banner Vinyl rolls :)
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I looked into vinyl a year or so ago and ended up using a polyester cloth that gave me pretty good image quality but was more delicate. I think my supplier did have it available but not at that time. The client was quite happy with the results.
The material looked more nicer than the vinyl that these banners replaced, especially after I made a custom profile to get the contrast bumped up. The canned profile from the supplier was too weak and pastel for my taste.
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if you want to hang hi quality banner on stand like this
(http://www.icongraphicsphil.com/images/X_Banner_Stand.jpg)
what paper do you use (note that banner is streched so i need storng paper) ?
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what paper do you use (note that banner is streched so i need storng paper)?
As an example, Lexjet (http://www.lexjet.com/smartfilterproduct.aspx?producttypeid=10&ff_4=234) offers an array of products that will show you what you should use. Both Canon & Epson also offer banner products.
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The banner material I was using was the Lexjet Satin--http://www.lexjet.com/p-707-LexJet-8-Mil-Production-Satin-Photo-Paper.aspx
The stands were also from Lexjet, their retractable that work like a movie screen--http://www.lexjet.com/i-11633-LexJet-Retractor-6-RTRC6.aspx
The banners had a nicer look than vinyl and in the stands, it was very convenient to set-up, put the pole together, pull the banner out of the stand and hang the rail. Takes just a minute to assemble and the banners look super.
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My friend, Jim Doyle at Shades of Paper: http://www.shadesofpaper.com/ has deep knowledge of both lines of printers and sells both to print shops. He also ships worldwide. You might want to contact him.
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There's one other thing to consider, which I too would like to know the answer to: as I consider going up a size I am mindfull of the much feared need to buy a new print head for my Canon 6100, which is an outlay close to $1000 for both.
In going up a size I could go to Epson machinery, which doesn't have replaceable heads, but does that mean they last longer, or what? Or do you just have to get a Techie to do it and end up paying the same or more?
Put in its simplest terms. which of the two has the lowest printhead costs over their predicted life span?
Thanks for any info.
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You're talking about two different technologies. Epson's print heads are piezo heads, which do not use heat to distribute the ink and are meant to last the life of the printer.
Canon and hp heads are user replaceable because of the difference in the ink delivery system which is heat. I don't think anyone can guarantee you an Epson head will not go out before it should but they are theoretically supposed to last the life of the printer.
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My understanding of the three heads:
HP has the sprectro since heads need to be replaced every few complete ink cart change. The heads change as the heads age, thus need to be re-profiled regularly. Heads are fairly inexpensive and user replaceable.
Canon's heads get replaced at a longer interval, but stay within color tolerance during their useful life. Heads are more expensive but user changeable.
Epson's heads stay in specs until they die (my oldest of four dates to about 2002 and the heads are fine), then have to be changed and aligned by the Epson tech and are far from cheap.
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You would be wrong about that assumption. I have used my Hp Z3100 for nearly 4 years now, every day. So far I have only replaced 4 of the 6 heads ( two ink channels per head, 12 inks), which cost me about $65.00 each. I've never seen a degrading of image quality due to the head wear except on one occasion. That was when I ran a couple of 44" rolls of huge textured rag prints with total black backgrounds and that finished off my Mk head. At that point I needed to replace the MK head because it wore out. That was after 2.5 years of heavy use on all kind of media. Head alignment is fast and fully automated. These very inexpensive heads are very durable, and run very cleanly They never clog ever, which is well worth a new set every couple of years. But I've never had to come close to even doing that. I relinearize the various media about once every couple of months, though I've never actually seen the output drift. But since it only takes 10 minutes and it fully automatic, I do it anyway. I've had Epson heads go out on me in less time than this and that is $1,200.00 if your lucky, probably a lot more these days. Now the ink carts can be used up fairly quickly on the HP since they are only 130 ml. That's a drag, Hp needs bigger carts. You use more of the light gray, gray, and black than any of the others generally. Some of the other channels like the blue, green, and red last a very long time for me.
The only situation that would worry me about the new Cannon's is the very expensive price of replacing those heads. Some people just give up on the printer and buy a new one at that point. I don't have any idea why the Canon thermal heads cost so much since they are easily replaced and do essentially the same things the hp heads do. But the Canon ink carts are huge and last forever practically.
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If you live in a place that is off the beaten track, I would think that reliability and some way to get service and parts is more important than any other properties, as either Epson or Canon can make excellent images. I think this is more important, say than the price of consumables.
+1 to that. While there is a wealth of information in this thread, I think you are asking the wrong questions. What matters most in a print business is that your machines are reliable, serviceable and that you can get parts and consumables quickly and easily. Servicing printers takes money and time away from running your business, and downtime is costly. Quality is pretty similar on modern printers, but if you can get parts and consumables (ink, paper, maybe heads) more easily from one company, I would go that route.
You also need to look into the total cost of running the printer. Will your current computer work or will you need a dedicated system? Can the printer build adequate profiles for your desired/required media or will you need to buy a separate profiler? Can the printer software handle multiple print jobs or will you need to buy a RIP? If a printer is purchased through a vendor like B&H and shipped to you, would that void the warranty? How much will consumables cost when they arrive on your doorstep?
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+1 to that. While there is a wealth of information in this thread, I think you are asking the wrong questions. What matters most in a print business is that your machines are reliable, serviceable and that you can get parts and consumables quickly and easily. Servicing printers takes money and time away from running your business, and downtime is costly. Quality is pretty similar on modern printers, but if you can get parts and consumables (ink, paper, maybe heads) more easily from one company, I would go that route.
You also need to look into the total cost of running the printer. Will your current computer work or will you need a dedicated system? Can the printer build adequate profiles for your desired/required media or will you need to buy a separate profiler? Can the printer software handle multiple print jobs or will you need to buy a RIP? If a printer is purchased through a vendor like B&H and shipped to you, would that void the warranty? How much will consumables cost when they arrive on your doorstep?
in the palce i live in there is no service center for canon or epson or hp ... i need to do it my self or use a not authorized center
so i need the most reialablity printer.