Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Dick Roadnight on November 23, 2010, 06:10:58 am

Title: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: Dick Roadnight on November 23, 2010, 06:10:58 am
There is an Apple promotion on Friday, and I had been thinking about the spec. for a 12 core:

I will be using 60 and or 48Mpx cameras, combining images for focus merge, pan-and-stitch, shift-and-stitch and painting with flash light, batch processing many 60Mpx pics in phocus, so I think I can justify getting a serious machine!

Configuration

    * Two 2.93GHz 6-Core Intel Xeon “Westmere” (12 cores)
    * 32 GB (8 x 4 GB)
    * 2TB 7200-rpm Serial ATA 3Gb/s hard drive
    * 2TB 7200-rpm Serial ATA 3Gb/s hard drive
    * 512GB solid-state drive
    * Two ATI Radeon HD 5770 1GB

    * One 18x SuperDrive
    * Magic Mouse
    * Apple Keyboard with Numeric Keypad (British) & User's Guide (English)
    * Apple Mini DisplayPort to DVI Adapter
    * Country Kit

Can you suggest any improvements on this? anything better or more cost-effective?

Would this be better than a raid machine?

Would it be worth getting server for use with my mac book pro?

I would be using 30" and 21" Eizos with it (I already have the 21).

Every computer I have had so far has been about £2k, so this is a big jump!

I would hope to make do with this machine for ever (I am 61).

I might use a forth drive (internal or external) as a PC drive.

...and what about back-up?

The quoted price is nearly £10k, but they give not details of what discounts will be available on Friday.
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: Graham Mitchell on November 23, 2010, 06:42:12 am
Not all SSDs are created equal. Make sure to get a fast one with performance that doesn't degrade over time.
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: Murray Fredericks on November 23, 2010, 06:52:59 am
Hi Dick,

I think you can do much better than that for that money by working with a RAID setup rather than the pure processing grunt and at the same time get loads of extra storage space (which you definately will need) to boot.

I would highly recommend reading through this (if you have not already)

http://macperformanceguide.com/index_topics.html#ChoosingConfiguring

and determining if the (often) marginally extra performance is worth the exponential rise in cost.

You need to determine whether the extra speed you want will come from the raid or the processors (or both) and where the money should be spent and where it's to be cost effective.

Also, there are much cheaper ways of going about all that than ordering this proposed setup from the factory -  and they don't require you to be a technician to make them happen...

Cheers

M
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: gazwas on November 23, 2010, 07:04:26 am
The quoted price is nearly £10k, but they give not details of what discounts will be available on Friday.

£10K on a PC...... for photography!  :o
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: ChristopherBarrett on November 23, 2010, 08:19:20 am
For SSD's I'd skip the OEM units and go with OWC's (http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/internal_storage/Mercury_Extreme_SSD_Sandforce).  They've proven not to degrade with use and have excellent speed.  I have a pair in my 12 core in Raid 0 and get 500mb/sec out of them!  12 cores is really hard to justify over 6, especially for Photoshop which doesn't allocate well.  I wanted 8 memory slots though and have installed 6 - 8gb chips.  You only get 4 slots on the 6 core.  I'd also recommend getting the least amount of Ram installed and buying it from OWC, or any trusted vendor and installing that yourself.  I got my 48gb for $1600 US.

I also went for the faster video card.  Probably not necessary, but hey, I might want to play games SOME day.

I do find that Capture 1 Pro takes full advantage of my 12 cores so my batch outputs go by pretty quick and image rendering (on screen) is very quick.  I 've got about 400GB of Video to edit over the next two weeks, so I'm pretty happy I made the major investment in the tower... mine clocked in around 10k too.


Cheers, computing is about to get much more fun.
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: Dustbak on November 23, 2010, 09:13:58 am
What is the purpose of 2 ATI5770? You are better off getting the ATI5870. The 5870 is virtually unavailable but can be had when buying a new MacPro. I would also skip the Apple SSD and get an OWC.

Figuring you will be putting the SSD in the bay below the superdrive you can put 4 2TB 7200rpm drives in and configure them in RAID0. I would suggest using the caviar blacks for this.

Phocus uses all cores and allocates its resources very well over them!
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: Doug Peterson on November 23, 2010, 09:16:06 am
I do find that Capture 1 Pro takes full advantage of my 12 cores so my batch outputs go by pretty quick and image rendering (on screen) is very quick.  I 've got about 400GB of Video to edit over the next two weeks, so I'm pretty happy I made the major investment in the tower... mine clocked in around 10k too.

Capture One may take advantage of 12 cores, but it's always been ahead of the general curve on taking advantage of multiple cores. Many programs, even pro apps like Photoshop (currently) actually run slower on 12 cores than 6 cores. As a Hassy shooter it might help if a 12-core Hassy owner could run some tests to see whether Phocus is able to saturate all 12 cores during import/tethering, adjustments, processing. (I don't have any idea either way)

Long term most professional programs will increase their emphasis on coding to take advantage of multiple cores, but it may be a while before Photoshop does. Only time will tell.

More info
http://www.captureintegration.com/2010/09/03/new-12-core-mac-pros/


Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/") | RSS Feed (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/")
Buy Capture One at 10% off (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/")
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: Doug Peterson on November 23, 2010, 09:17:01 am
Phocus uses all cores and allocates its resources very well over them!

Great news for you!
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: Christopher on November 23, 2010, 10:14:42 am
I'm just a little shocked, you are already over 10.000POUNDS ??? I'm just really happy I can built my own PCs and save thousand of dollars and get something that is even faster. :)

First I wouldn't get two graphic cards but one better. It doesn't make sense to have two. As many said before don't get a OEM SSD, mostly we don't really know what apple is selling you.




Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: Dick Roadnight on November 23, 2010, 02:55:20 pm
...I'm just really happy I can built my own PCs and save thousand of dollars and get something that is even faster.

First I wouldn't get two graphic cards but one better. It doesn't make sense to have two. As many said before don't get a OEM SSD, mostly we don't really know what apple is selling you.
I was hoping that some of you could give me some useful advice on cost-effectively putting a system together, thank you... can you run two Eizos of one graphics card?
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: Wayne Fox on November 23, 2010, 03:21:52 pm
Many programs, even pro apps like Photoshop (currently) actually run slower on 12 cores than 6 cores.

I think the difference is you can purchase a 6 core machine running at 3.3ghz which will outperform a 12 core machine which maxes at 2.93ghz - so it's about the processor speed and not the number of cores.  Since  the current version of PS doesn't leverage mulitple cores very well you get more bang out of faster processor speeds.. Actually I tried to confirm Digiloyd's finding with my 12 core mac using the apple processor utility.  12 cores does not run slower in any of his photoshop tests than 6 on my setup, and is marginally faster.   I was unable to duplicate many of his reported findings and still am not sure how he was able to test a 12 core 3.33ghz machine, since apple doesn't make one.

True photoshop does not scale well ( as do many other programs) as you add cores.  But multiple cores also are advantageous in other ways, such as Lightroom rendering 1:1 previews while other tasks are going on - I see virtually no photoshop speed hit when doing this in LR in the background.  I'm frequently ripping DVD's while doing photo work, and only see about a 5% speed hit in LR and photoshop, despite the intensive ripping of Handbrake.  Additionally an investment now can be looked at as a fairly long term one, probably good for perhaps 2 more versions of PS.  I would assume adobe is working on tweaking code to get more leverage out of multi core machines.

Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: gazwas on November 23, 2010, 04:38:50 pm
Additionally an investment now can be looked at as a fairly long term one, probably good for perhaps 2 more versions of PS.  I would assume adobe is working on tweaking code to get more leverage out of multi core machines.

I just don't think your statement holds true with such technology. Never will a £10K spend on a PC ever be a good long term/future proof investment. If Intel's processor upgrades follow as thy have done since Apple went Intel then history shows, this years top end model will be virtually matched in speed by next years low end model.

Photography software puts such a low drain on the resources of modern multi core machines that you'd be much better of buying the lower spec MacPro's on a more regular basis, than spending on the highest spec model and keeping it for 10 years. People who demand the latest and fastest from their computers (video, 3D, animation etc, etc) then fine but for photographers.  ???
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: Christopher on November 23, 2010, 05:01:03 pm
I was hoping that some of you could give me some useful advice on cost-effectively putting a system together, thank you... can you run two Eizos of one graphics card?

Yes you can and you even can have one profile each. As far as I know it only works with AMD/ATI Cards and even there not all of them. However the newer generation should be alright.
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: EricWHiss on November 23, 2010, 06:10:10 pm
How much of that £10k is RAM?    Buying RAM and extra Hard drives from the Apple store is a good way to throw away a ton of money.  Save money by going with one of the aftermarket vendors.  I usually go with Crucial.com myself but there are plenty of other vendors.
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: Wayne Fox on November 23, 2010, 06:29:57 pm
I just don't think your statement holds true with such technology. Never will a £10K spend on a PC ever be a good long term/future proof investment. If Intel's processor upgrades follow as thy have done since Apple went Intel then history shows, this years top end model will be virtually matched in speed by next years low end model.

Photography software puts such a low drain on the resources of modern multi core machines that you'd be much better of buying the lower spec MacPro's on a more regular basis, than spending on the highest spec model and keeping it for 10 years. People who demand the latest and fastest from their computers (video, 3D, animation etc, etc) then fine but for photographers.  ???
While certainly technology will continue to move ahead, I know my previous 8 core MacPro was from 3 generations ago, and was still very serviceable after 3 years (and in fact is in daily use still today, just not by me). I'm not talking about 10 years here, but maybe around 3.

So even though technology will continue to improve, those improvements are incremental, and upgrading every iteration of MacPro really doesn't do what it used to. Since PS is traditionally on about an 18 month upgrade cycle, it's conceivable to me that the current 6 and 12 core will still be quite useful for a couple of versions.  True maybe not the fastest MacPro out there, but still serviceable enough. 

I guess my main thought is regarding buying a 6 vs 12 core machine now ... if CS6 can actually leverage the cores even marginally better than now, the 12 core may prove the better machine for the next version of PS which is certainly within the life expectancy of the machine.  I'm not even sure adobe can answer that question so maybe it isn't a factor in deciding.

So as a photographer if the only concern is max PS speed and no real taxing multi-tasking, the 3.33.ghz 6 core is the way to go.  In my case, I spend less than 15% of time in PS, the remainder in C1 and LR, so the extra cores are proving quite valuable.

Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 23, 2010, 07:18:20 pm
I don't think now is a good time to invest in a machine supposed to last long. The current Mac Pro lacks support for USB3 and lightpeak, it will have a hard time connecting to most interesting peripherals in one to two years from now.

If you really need to buy something, I second the advice on the high end OWC Raid ready SSD. I have been using a 200GB version and this thing currently flies without showing any sign of slowing down. I wish I could say the same of my Intel SSD 25M on Win7 on the work laptop.

Generally speaking though, it is IMHO questionable to bet on Apple's intention to keep serving the high end market well. They have shown less and less interest for that segment.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: jduncan on November 23, 2010, 07:55:35 pm
I don't think now is a good time to invest in a machine supposed to last long. The current Mac Pro lacks support for USB3 and lightpeak, it will have a hard time connecting to most interesting peripherals in one to two years from now.
Just to clarify:
1. USB-3 is compatible with USB-2.
2. Mac Pros have expansion. We already have working USB-3 cards for the mac Pro. (http://barefeats.com/hard136.html)
3. I don't see a lot of peripherals that cary lightpeak only any time soon. But who knows? Still we have slots. But only 3.
4. Current mac pros have firewire, not sure the lightpeak generation will have.
5. Add Pcie-3 to the list of new stuff for the next year.
6. What about Sandybridge EX and Lion ? Will the difference in performance / features  be worthy of waiting?
 
None of the about invalidate your points just make the consideration more nuanced. Apple update of the mac pro was late and little. No more PCIe lines by example. I understand that they are stuck with intel.  But I am still not happy. The next generation machines could be a big step forward. But, if that's the case, maybe that will be a good reason to buy the machine today. Let the people that is not using the machine for earning a living debug the new technologies.

Only my few cents :)
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: Frank Doorhof on November 24, 2010, 02:49:43 am
I skipped the 12 core because my 8 Core 2008 model still runs fast enough.
I did upgrade the videocard to the 5770.

My advise.

1x 5770, it's fast enough and I don't think photo or video software will benefit really that much from the 5870.
SKIP the ram, get it with as little ram as possible and buy the ram from Kingston, they have the same modules but a LOT cheaper.

SSD is nice but also skip that.
Get one SSD drive from another brand and use hybrid drives for the rest if needed.
For storage however normal 7200/10.000 rpm drives are more than enough of course.

SSD is nice as boot drive and swap drive but not for everything.

RAM I should keep at 12-16GB max, 32GB is way too much, even for 60MP/80MP files.
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 24, 2010, 10:03:16 am
Just to clarify:
1. USB-3 is compatible with USB-2.
2. Mac Pros have expansion. We already have working USB-3 cards for the mac Pro. (http://barefeats.com/hard136.html)
3. I don't see a lot of peripherals that cary lightpeak only any time soon. But who knows? Still we have slots. But only 3.
4. Current mac pros have firewire, not sure the lightpeak generation will have.
5. Add Pcie-3 to the list of new stuff for the next year.
6. What about Sandybridge EX and Lion ? Will the difference in performance / features  be worthy of waiting?

True, a lot of things are unclear as of now, but that is precisely my point. Unless you really need a new WS quickly, waiting one more generation seems reasonnable.

It is indeed possible to buy a USB 3 expansion card, but do you have visibility on the achievable performance when several devices are connected,...? You end up being stuck with ports behind the machine that are pretty unconvenient,...

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: ChristopherBarrett on November 24, 2010, 11:06:06 am
with technology, though, it always seems prudent to wait just one more generation to get that one new feature or advancement.  I had been waiting over a year for Apple to introduce new towers and I expect the new beast to last me at least a few years.  My God, I was retouching on a laptop before they came out...

As with all gear, you just need to really subjectively appraise if the benefit outweighs the cost.  As I type this I have Capture 1 Pro batch processing 900 images for a timelapse sequence while Red Cine-X is rendering about 300gb worth of footage and the Tower is just purring right along as I drink my coffee. 

Really though,  if I hadn't known that I was going to be doing more video work, I probably would of gone for the 6 core.

Good Mornin' LuLa,
CB
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: Jack Flesher on November 24, 2010, 11:12:22 am
Here's another option to consider:

Buy the single 6-core 3.33 and load it with 3x8G of OWC ram.  (Buying your RAM and SSD from OWC too will save a ton.)  Then in 18 months or so when CS and other software gets revised to handle cores better, you can utilize their service to add a second 3.33 processor (Actually they buy your existing 3.33, add the second MB and install a matched pair of 3.33's) and add another 3x8g ram. So you end up with a SCREAMING state of the art 12-core 3.33 with 48G ram.

Here's a link to their upgrade services: http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/turnkey/MacPro/2009_2010_Xeon_Processor

FWIW I am planning on assembling this very conversion early 2011. 12-core 3.33, 48G RAM, 3x100G SSD's in RAID-0 for OS, Apps AND CS scratch.  (Yes, scratch and OS on the same volume since with 48G ram scratch will rarely be utilized -- it will be reserved, but not needed except for extremely large files.)  Then another 3x2TB RAID-0 for image storage, all backed up to my existing external array...

:D Cheers!  
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: Dick Roadnight on November 24, 2010, 11:21:17 am
with technology, though, it always seems prudent to wait just one more generation to get that one new feature or advancement.  I had been waiting over a year for Apple to introduce new towers and I expect the new beast to last me at least a few years.  My God, I was retouching on a laptop before they came out...

Really though,  if I hadn't known that I was going to be doing more video work, I probably would of gone for the 6 core.

Good Mornin' LuLa,
CB
All I have now is a laptop and a 760Mhz PC!

...and I will also be using the machine for video.

Thank you all for the info.
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: ChristopherBarrett on November 24, 2010, 12:17:08 pm
That's a pretty good idea Jack's got there.
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: Jack Flesher on November 24, 2010, 12:45:09 pm
That's a pretty good idea Jack's got there.

It's not exactly inexpensive, but at least it spreads the total investment over time and best of all, "as needed."  If you price everything out, the most cost-effective approach if you want to do it all at once is to buy the bottom end 12-core and upgrade it to the 3.33 12 core -- IIRC that's about $8500 before RAM and drives.  

Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: EricWHiss on November 24, 2010, 01:00:52 pm
Interesting idea to have the 2nd Core added later.  Do they have to do a whole OS reinstall afterwards?  Personally I hate to make changes like this because of all the little software pref files and things - seems like the times in the past (long ago admittedly) the computer always had gremlins afterwards.    Also I buy RAM outside of apple for every laptop and desktop for my bus and family and have been tempted to go with OWC instead of Crucial a few times, but have regretted it because every time I do, I have to exchange one set of the RAM because of EEC errors or other issues. They have a guarantee but your system will be down and its a hassle.  I've never had a bad Crucial memory simm ever so even though a bit more expensive I now always go with them instead of OWC.   I hate wasting time and hassle.  Of course this is just my experience, YMMV.

Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: Jack Flesher on November 24, 2010, 01:34:12 pm
I keep bootable back-ups of my entire OS/App drive using Carbon Copy Cloner and never had an issue booting off of one of those clones after a hardware change.  Worst case in this example, it is a trivial exercise to "migrate" OS X from one system to another.

Re RAM: I had issues with OWC's first batch of 2G sticks of Mac RAM way back when, but they replaced them instantly and I've had zero issues with their 4G and 8G sticks since.  There is nothing wrong with using Crucial RAM either IMO, just whatever your personal preference is :)  
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: Frank Doorhof on November 24, 2010, 02:25:49 pm
Are you sure you can add CPU's ?
I thought they were not upgradable, at least not when I bought my 2008 8 Core.
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: Dick Roadnight on November 24, 2010, 03:28:32 pm
Plenty of great ideas presented here. Personally I think it's absolutely ridiculous to spend $10K on a photo workstation tower. Poor money management. Best to buy RAM and drives from other vendors. I do buy from OWC often with no issues to date.

My feeling is that having the best and knowing what to do with it almost never coincide.

Dick,

If you are also wanting to add video to your repertoire, ...
I will be doing a little video with a point-and-shoot.

I was not convinced that the Apple discount offer was worth considering, so I asked the question here... I do not need the big-mac this week, but the promotion prompted me to do some research, thank you all for your input.

Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: Mr. Rib on November 24, 2010, 04:00:59 pm
...
A profiled monitor for photographic print work is simply wrong for video work. Sure you can edit but don't make any visual quality judgements from that profiled monitor. They are just not correct for any broadcast standards, gamma and color. Also storage quantity (which will grow at an insane rate) will be more important than anything else along with throughput.
...

Pro video is a different game and different money- as we all know same goes for equipment. If you REALLY need a pro-level monitor for editing / postpro you'll find yourself spending 20-30k for an LCD.
www.barco.com - pro level reference monitors.
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: jduncan on November 24, 2010, 05:17:14 pm
Pro video is a different game and different money- as we all know same goes for equipment. If you REALLY need a pro-level monitor for editing / postpro you'll find yourself spending 20-30k for an LCD.
www.barco.com - pro level reference monitors.
Just learn that the Eizos are bargains.   ;)

Jokes aside. What does that kind of monitor give to the user? In photography we spend on a good monitor with good calibration because the final product is the print. But, if everyone where looking at the pictures using a glossy ipad or similar the pros will better served by a glossy similar monitor (just let it be consistent). In the case of the 23" broadcast monitoring panel from Barco it looks that the final product will be seen in a not so special TV set. I know I am missing something.  Could somebody help?
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: Mr. Rib on November 24, 2010, 06:12:24 pm
What you are missing is another dimension of possible problems- picture in motion . These reference monitors provide you with 120 Hz refresh rate -  this is refresh rate from CRT era and rock-solid animation- no blurring, ghosting, smudging or anything you can encounter on a regular LCD panel (even a high-end one like Eizo). Most of us have forgotten about it, but for motion CRT were sooo much better.. make an experiment and run a rich in dynamic action movie on a good CRT and an LCD panel next to each other.
Additional features is hardware color control to minimize the possibility of color variation- director of a big shot movie will see exactly the same thing as the film producer in terms of color balance, motion etc. Kind of crucial, if you think of, say, big bucks production, but yeah, that's what a well-calibrated Eizo can MORELESS do. I dunno about Eizo  hardware stabilization though
This kind of solutions are targeted at high-budget procductions, TV broadcasts, etc- places where there is no place for excuse where something goes wrong (for instance, because the calibration of the monitor went slightly off after a month or because of temperature) . If you need an artifact-free animation and a reliable, rock-solid stabilization of color calibration settings and need to be sure that the second guy with the second monitor sees exactly the same thing as you- this display is for you. Otherwise- an overkill :)
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: jduncan on November 24, 2010, 08:46:03 pm
What you are missing is another dimension of possible problems- picture in motion .

Thanks  :)
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: Dick Roadnight on November 25, 2010, 05:29:00 pm
The Mac price for 32Gb is £3K, and the OWC upgrade to 32Gb is $1,079... but the other  $ prices without tax are similar to the £ prices.

Is there a good UK based supplier that understands photography?
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: perjorgen on November 26, 2010, 02:36:24 am
I had my my hopes up as well for a new mac - but disapointed I got  :'(
£81 on a mac book pro (and none on mac pro) ;D
Weird campain  ???
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: Dick Roadnight on November 26, 2010, 05:22:28 am
I had my my hopes up as well for a new mac - but disapointed I got  :'(
£81 on a mac book pro (and none on mac pro) ;D
Weird campain  ???
...yes no deals on Mac Pros, which is what I had hoped for, but Hasselblad/Phocus will be able to work with an iPad or iToutch...

They got our attention, but I do not have to decide precisely what I want today.

How do you set up a mac for photo?

one drive for .fff raws,
one for Tiffs,
one for PSDs
one for software
one for scratch?

The theory is that the disc head cannot be in two places at once, so you can (more quickly) write a .psd to one drive at the same time as reading in the next tiff or raw from another... but SSDs do not have heads, so do you use the SSD for the software and scratch?

The spare space in all drives can be used for backup/archive?
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: Fritzer on November 26, 2010, 11:47:26 am

Here's another option to consider:

Buy the single 6-core 3.33 and load it with 3x8G of OWC ram.  (Buying your RAM and SSD from OWC too will save a ton.)

I agree, right now this seems to be the way to go . As for upgrading to more cores, time will tell if there'll be a need.
Right now, 2D still editing is mainly about RAM and processor speed.




How do you set up a mac for photo?


It's been linked to above - you really want to visit macperformanceguide (http://macperformanceguide.com/) and do some research (the owner is affiliated to OWC, he mentions it everywhere, but keep that in mind).

I'd add that any current SSD with Sandforce controller (OWC, OCZ Vertex 2 etc.) is supposed to work well on a Mac and last, but noone knows for sure just yet.

Imho, concentrate for performance on your boot+apps drive array, and a scratch and project drive array; for storage of infrequently used files and archives just stay away from USB and you'll be fine.

The whole PC industry didn't manage to introduce something better than Firewire 800, or faster than eSATA, for external hardware (on our level), so I wouldn't hold my breath re. lightpeak and even USB3 if you need a solution within a year or so.

Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: ChristopherBarrett on November 26, 2010, 12:05:16 pm

Imho, concentrate for performance on your boot+apps drive array, and a scratch and project drive array; for storage of infrequently used files and archives just stay away from USB and you'll be fine.

The whole PC industry didn't manage to introduce something better than Firewire 800, or faster than eSATA, for external hardware (on our level), so I wouldn't hold my breath re. lightpeak and even USB3 if you need a solution within a year or so.



Makes sense to me.  I put two OWC SSD's in the optical bay in Raid 0.  That's my OS, App & even Scratch drive for PS (with 48gb Ram it doesn't really touch the scratch).  Then I have 4 Seagate Barracudas in all the HD bays also in Raid 0 for very temporary storage while retouching.  Files all reside permanently on the  Drobo and are backed up to external FW drive.  The files I'm currently working on open and save very quickly and are protected on multiple drives.  The system has been quite speed and rock solid.

Chers,
CB
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 26, 2010, 09:51:03 pm
The whole PC industry didn't manage to introduce something better than Firewire 800, or faster than eSATA, for external hardware (on our level), so I wouldn't hold my breath re. lightpeak and even USB3 if you need a solution within a year or so.

Well, SCSI320 has been around for a long time and works wonders. I have been using such a unit from Wiebetech for a few years now and in Raid5 it is at least as fast as drives within the Mac.

As far as light peak and USB3.0 taking more time, it is really a matter of Intel supporting either on their chipsets, which should happen early 2011.

The OP was speaking about buying a high end machine and keeping it for several years. There is little doubt that most relevant direct attached storage will be either USB3.0 or Lightpeak based by end of 2011. As 10Gb networks spread the need for direct attached storage might go down at some point of time, but I don't believe we are anywhere near that. If you have ever tried using Lightroom with a NAS you know how frustrating that experience can be. :)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: Dick Roadnight on November 27, 2010, 06:49:00 am
Digilloyd responded to my request to OWC for a complete system, and this is the info I sent them:

MPG Photo Workstation Heavy Duty
Estimated Photoshop IN-MEMORY file sizes = 1GB or More   
I think I need: 12-core at 2.93GHz

    * I need to run Photoshop CS4 and/or CS5 in 32-bit mode.
    * My time is money, it has to be as fast as possible.
    * I want a personalized consultation to help me decide.
    * I also want to run Windows.
    * I need two or more displays.

Questions & special requests:   
System could be shipped to my Step-daughter in California.
Phocus makes good use of 12 core.
I have a Mac book pro.
I have an Eizo CG211, and intend to buy (in UK) a 30".
I will be doing a great deal of stitching and merging, working on large numbers of 48 Mpx MS or 60Mpx files in Phocus and PS at the same time.


OWC comes well recommended, but I spoke to the nice guys at the local (1 hour drive away) Apple store yesterday.... and OWC is in the middle of a foreign country (been there) a quarter of the way round the world, they do not quote in £sterling, ...but they do speak a version of the same language.
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: arashm on November 27, 2010, 01:14:27 pm
Q? For CB
which bracket are you using to place the two SSD in the second optical bay?
thanks
am
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: ChristopherBarrett on November 27, 2010, 03:45:01 pm
Q? For CB
which bracket are you using to place the two SSD in the second optical bay?
thanks
am

This was the setup. (http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Other%20World%20Computing/MM352A52ST/)  Even though this can fit in One opti-bay, I had to steal the SATA cable from my opti-drive for the 2nd SSD.  I happened to have an external burner already, but slightly inconvenient.

CB
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: arashm on November 27, 2010, 05:06:17 pm
Thank you for that
Funny I was just thinking of this the other day.
Would be good to capitalize on the empty optical bay.
am
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 27, 2010, 05:24:02 pm
This was the setup. (http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Other%20World%20Computing/MM352A52ST/)  Even though this can fit in One opti-bay, I had to steal the SATA cable from my opti-drive for the 2nd SSD.  I happened to have an external burner already, but slightly inconvenient.

You can perhaps still find some pre-eSATA drives out there? the Pioneer DVD writer than came with my 3 years old Mac Pro was not eSATA, although the Blue Ray drive I added obviously is. But newer Mac Pro motherboards might not only have eSATA ports?

Another solution would be to add one eSATA extension card with an internal port?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: Dick Roadnight on November 28, 2010, 04:18:26 am
You can perhaps still find some pre-eSATA drives out there? the Pioneer DVD writer than came with my 3 years old Mac Pro was not eSATA, although the Blue Ray drive I added obviously is. But newer Mac Pro motherboards might not only have eSATA ports?

Another solution would be to add one eSATA extension card with an internal port?

Cheers,
Bernard

Have the new Mac Pros any SATA ports? There is much BS and little info on the Apple site.

I believe that there is a Gigabit Ethernet socket, somewhere, but not on the front or the back.
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: Dick Roadnight on November 28, 2010, 07:25:22 am
I put two OWC SSD's in the optical bay in Raid 0.  That's my OS, App & even Scratch drive for PS (with 48gb Ram it doesn't really touch the scratch).  Then I have 4 Seagate Barracudas in all the HD bays also in Raid 0 for very temporary storage while retouching.  Files all reside permanently on the  Drobo and are backed up to external FW drive.  The files I'm currently working on open and save very quickly and are protected on multiple drives.  The system has been quite speed and rock solid.

Chers,
CB
I think a set-up similar to this, with two RAID 0s and plenty of RAM is the ultimate Mac.

It would be nice to have a self-contained unit for when you use it on site, leaving the big external back-up at base.

What about 2* 2TB drives in RAID 0 for speed and 2* 2TB internal for back-up (one for raws and one for .psd.), and for the ultimate, 2* half GB SSDs in RAID 0?

Something that will handle 10 files ten time quicker than my 4 core 8GB MBP handles one 300MB file would be nice.
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: ChristopherBarrett on November 28, 2010, 08:24:31 am
Yeah... the 4 hard drives I threw in are some 320gb's I had hanging around in my old Raid box.  I'm planning to replace those with larger drives in the near future... I believe Digilloyd has just reviewed Hitachi 3tb units.  On the SSD's, I went with the 200gb drives.  Those in Raid 0 give me plenty of room for OS and Apps and the next larger ones were getting pretty pricey.

Cheers,
CB
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: David Watson on November 28, 2010, 09:44:11 am
Hi

I have just upgraded the drives on my MacPro from 4 x 500GB running RAID 5 to 4 x 2TB running RAID 0 + 1 - I have an Apple RAID card installed and 16GB of RAM. My machine is a quad core 3.2GHz and I also upgraded to a Nvidia GTX285 (1GB Vram).  This gives me  a very fast system with almost 4GB of storage with a similar level of backup.  The whole system backs up using Superduper to an OWC FW800 RAID5 box with 4 x 1.5TB drives.

I though about upgrading to a new 12 core machine but couldn't see the point given the small benefit weighed against the not insignificant cost.  I will wait for the next generation of Macpro's before buying.

BTW typical TIFF file sizes are 200MB to 1.2 GB/

David
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: Jack Flesher on November 28, 2010, 10:26:42 am


What about 2* 2TB drives in RAID 0 for speed and 2* 2TB internal for back-up (one for raws and one for .psd.), and for the ultimate, 2* half GB SSDs in RAID 0?


Here is another thought -- Hitachi just released some 3TB drives that are VERY fast and cost about $250 each from OWC.  My next box might be a pair of SSDs for OS and Apps, then 4 of these spinners in the main bays partitioned thusly using the built-in Mac software RAID:

1) small top partition off all 4 in RAID-0 for scratch, say 64G off each for a total scratch volume of 256G.

2) Larger partition on each, now 2.8TB used in a 2>2 RAID-0/1, so 5.6TB of really fast data storage, mirrored to an identical array, all internal.

Other option is three of these 3TB drives all in RAID-0 partitioned with a small scratch space on the outer rim, then the huge remaining image array all backed up to my existing external, leaving an open SATA port for the Blue-Ray. But no biggie since there are some relatively inexpensive internal PCIe SATA port cards that are bootable.



 

Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: Dick Roadnight on November 28, 2010, 11:09:08 am
Thank you, David Chris and Jack...

You have told me what is optimal... and If I am going to working with 6 or 10 60Mpx files in phocus I would benefit from a top-end system...

A 4 disc RAID would be fast, so perhaps I could do without the SSD initially?

I might buy a basic system from Apple UK and them buy additional bits from OWC.

I do not need a system this month, and the initial inquiry was stimulated by the Apple promotion, but I hope to be fully up and running soon... and doing much multi-file work with my MBP would be frustrating - it is bad enough waiting for it to update after adjustments in phocus on a single file!
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: c5gowin on November 28, 2010, 11:59:53 am
If you are not in a hurry - and it sounds like you are not - then the new Intel Sandy Bridge processors should start hitting the market early in 2011 (perhaps as soon as CES). It will probably take a while longer for Apple to upgrade the Mac Pro to the new processors, but it's worth keeping an eye on so you can make an informed purchase decision when you are ready to pull the trigger.
____________
Mark
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: Jack Flesher on November 28, 2010, 12:14:37 pm


A 4 disc RAID would be fast, so perhaps I could do without the SSD initially?



A 4x3TB would be very fast with a thin outer rim dedicated to scratch, so yes, that's fine for sure.  But I would at the very least get an SSD for OS and apps, as boot and launch are supremely fast.  And the 200G OWC enterprise is what I would reco since if you decide to RAID them in the future, you'll already have one half of the pair.
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: Dustbak on November 28, 2010, 01:15:46 pm
I have the same thing however I opted not for the server edition of the SSD. AFAIK, you only need that when you plan on using the SSD's with a RAID card. When using a RAID0 via the OS it is not necessary.

I found my 4drive RAID0 faster than my OWC SSD.
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: RobSaecker on November 28, 2010, 01:36:08 pm
Have the new Mac Pros any SATA ports? There is much BS and little info on the Apple site.

I believe that there is a Gigabit Ethernet socket, somewhere, but not on the front or the back.

Apple has yet to include external SATA on any of their computers, and given the rumors that next year's models are going to have Light Peak connections, they probably never will.

As for ethernet, the image of the back near the bottom of this page clearly shows a pair of ethernet ports.
href="http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_mac/family/mac_pro?mco=MTg5MTY5NDQ
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: Dick Roadnight on November 28, 2010, 05:30:53 pm
Apple has yet to
As for ethernet, the image of the back near the bottom of this page clearly shows a pair of ethernet ports.
href="http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_mac/family/mac_pro?mco=MTg5MTY5NDQ
I had looked at that web page, and observed that there are two firewire 800 ports at the bottom on the front, and 2 analog audio ports at the bottom at he back and the words "Gigabit Ethernet" not indicating any ports... which could imply that Gigabit Ethernet is wireless only, or that there are Gigabit wireless ports, but not on the front of back of the machine.
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 28, 2010, 06:37:13 pm
I had looked at that web page, and observed that there are two firewire 800 ports at the bottom on the front, and 2 analog audio ports at the bottom at he back and the words "Gigabit Ethernet" not indicating any ports... which could imply that Gigabit Ethernet is wireless only, or that there are Gigabit wireless ports, but not on the front of back of the machine.

Dick,

The specs are clear: http://www.apple.com/macpro/specs.html

They quote "Two independent 10/100/1000BASE-T Ethernet (RJ-45) interfaces with support for jumbo frames".

Unless they have improved somehow with more recent generations of the box, I would not trust a mission critical connectivity to wifi on the mac pro, the antenna doesn't seem to be well located on my 3 years old Mac Pro.

Regards,
Bernard
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: RobSaecker on November 28, 2010, 11:44:58 pm
I had looked at that web page, and observed that there are two firewire 800 ports at the bottom on the front, and 2 analog audio ports at the bottom at he back and the words "Gigabit Ethernet" not indicating any ports... which could imply that Gigabit Ethernet is wireless only, or that there are Gigabit wireless ports, but not on the front of back of the machine.

It's true that the text doesn't line up well with the image, but there are no square analog audio ports. The lowest ports in the image of the back are ethernet ports.
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: Dick Roadnight on November 29, 2010, 03:17:35 pm
Dick,

The specs are clear: http://www.apple.com/macpro/specs.html

They quote "Two independent 10/100/1000BASE-T Ethernet (RJ-45) interfaces with support for jumbo frames".

Unless they have improved somehow with more recent generations of the box, I would not trust a mission critical connectivity to wifi on the mac pro, the antenna doesn't seem to be well located on my 3 years old Mac Pro.

Regards,
Bernard

The other spec sheet I saw was not so clear (but it did show the front and rear connections),,, but this lists "connections and audio" without mentioning the Ethernet, which is under "communications" or monitor outputs, which are under "graphics and displays" or SATA (internal) which is under "storage"... do you have to plug in an expansion card to use an external SATA drive?
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: jduncan on November 29, 2010, 04:05:58 pm
I had looked at that web page, and observed that there are two firewire 800 ports at the bottom on the front, and 2 analog audio ports at the bottom at he back and the words "Gigabit Ethernet" not indicating any ports... which could imply that Gigabit Ethernet is wireless only, or that there are Gigabit wireless ports, but not on the front of back of the machine.
Maybe this comment could be of some help. There is no "wireless Gigabit Ethernet" as such. You can buy proprietary extenders (to connect different ethernet segments) that will reach gigabit speeds. But is a different technology. What the mac pro has is 802.11n Wi-Fi.
This is the same kind of wireless connection you will find in a laptop or an iPhone or Android. Normality it will reach about  54 Mbit/s.

The ethernet ports (for RJ45) look like a bigger phone wall connectors. There are two of them on the mac pro. Both at the bottom back. This is stated on the apple page but the illustration is not that good. Maybe this illustration is better (it is older):

http://images.amazon.com/images/G/01/electronics/detail-page/mac-pro-connections-9-26.gif

Please note that the new mac pros don't have a firewire 400 connector. They have two firewire 800s, but they are in the same places.
I hope this helps.  :).

There is also the issue of the slots, there are not all equal. If you have any doubt don't be afraid to ask. We are here to help each other.
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: Dick Roadnight on November 29, 2010, 04:26:05 pm
The other spec sheet I saw was not so clear (but it did show the front and rear connections),,,

http://store.apple.com/uk-business/browse/home/shop_mac/family/mac_pro (http://store.apple.com/uk-business/browse/home/shop_mac/family/mac_pro)

Here the Ethernet ports on the back are labeled "analog audio in/out", as the text is not lined up with the connectors in the illustration that they refer to - perhaps they (Apple UK) do not employ anyone computer literate?

I have only been working with PCs for about 25 years, and I am only an electronic engineer who was Programmer and Service Manager for a computer company for about two years - what hope have I got of understanding the MAC spec?
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: jduncan on November 29, 2010, 05:09:57 pm
http://store.apple.com/uk-business/browse/home/shop_mac/family/mac_pro (http://store.apple.com/uk-business/browse/home/shop_mac/family/mac_pro)

Here the Ethernet ports on the back are labeled "analog audio in/out", as the text is not lined up with the connectors in the illustration that they refer to - perhaps they (Apple UK) do not employ anyone computer literate?

I have only been working with PCs for about 25 years, and I am only an electronic engineer who was Programmer and Service Manager for a computer company for about two years - what hope have I got of understanding the MAC spec?

Three points:

Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 29, 2010, 06:18:08 pm
do you have to plug in an expansion card to use an external SATA drive?

Yes, I believe that the Mac Pro does not feature an external eSATA port.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: Fritzer on November 30, 2010, 03:22:08 am
... do you have to plug in an expansion card to use an external SATA drive?

There is an unused SATA connector in the lower optical drive bay, I assume there is some sort of adapter so you could use it with an eSATA bracket.
That said, why bother - you can get fast eSATA cards for little money, like the Maxpower models at OWC (http://eshop.macsales.com/) .
Look for one that is hot-swap ready , maybe supports port-multiplying.

External drives are usually connected by eSATA , internally there are mostly SATA ports - same technology, just different cables basically .
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 30, 2010, 07:59:52 am
External drives are usually connected by eSATA , internally there are mostly SATA ports - same technology, just different cables basically .

Nope. eSATA and SATA differ more than just cables shape, and recent Macs are fully eSATA internally.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: Dick Roadnight on November 30, 2010, 09:42:20 am
Thank you all, again for the info.
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: RobSaecker on November 30, 2010, 10:48:33 am
Nope. eSATA and SATA differ more than just cables shape, and recent Macs are fully eSATA internally.

Bernard,

there is something amiss with that statement. eSATA is external SATA, see for instance http://www.serialata.org/technology/esata.asp, and there is no mention of eSATA on the Apple's Mac Pro pages. In addition, there are no hard drives that use the eSATA interface, it's only enclosures that use it, and they use standard SATA connectors to connect the drives.

Unless you have better information, in which case I'll willingly stand corrected.  :)
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: jduncan on November 30, 2010, 11:58:45 am
Bernard,

there is something amiss with that statement. eSATA is external SATA, see for instance http://www.serialata.org/technology/esata.asp, and there is no mention of eSATA on the Apple's Mac Pro pages. In addition, there are no hard drives that use the eSATA interface, it's only enclosures that use it, and they use standard SATA connectors to connect the drives.

Unless you have better information, in which case I'll willingly stand corrected.  :)
Agree, maybe an example may help:
iMAC modification from OMC. They take the sata port in the 27 that normaly connects to the SSD and extended it externally with a cable and voila an esata port.
Maybe is a typo, and he has referring to ATA (parallel ata, as we call it today?). Here are the links about the imac:

http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/turnkey/iMac_2010_27
http://ieba.wordpress.com/2010/08/02/owc/

With that you lose one internal sata port. For the Mac pro there is no need for hacking.
Bare feats (http://www.barefeats.com) have tests for different esata cards. There is no need to use one of the two high speed slots (x16) on the mac for the esata by the way.
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: Wayne Fox on November 30, 2010, 03:25:31 pm
Nope. eSATA and SATA differ more than just cables shape, and recent Macs are fully eSATA internally.

Cheers,
Bernard

Curious as to your source. Doesn't sound like the case from the specs ...

"Four 3.5-inch cable-free, direct-attach drive bays with built-in independent 3Gb/s Serial ATA channels; four internal drive carriers included"
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 30, 2010, 05:23:24 pm
Oops, my bad, you are correct gentlemen.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Ultimate 12 core/Apple prpmotion
Post by: Fritzer on December 01, 2010, 03:46:31 am
That's easy to confuse, I just happened to have done lots of research for my MacPro.

MacPro , early 2008 and before : 2 empty SATA ports on the motherboard, can be used for extra internal harddrives, eSATA brackets to connect ecternal eSATA enclosures (one per), etc. . Need to lead cables from Mobo to device .
Optical drive : IDE , unused power connector in optical bay (needs adapter).

MacPro , late 2008 - today : One unused SATA connector in lower optical bay, connects straight to any SATA device (one); optical drive : SATA .