Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Colour Management => Topic started by: djoy on October 28, 2010, 06:39:28 am

Title: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: djoy on October 28, 2010, 06:39:28 am
For those who missed it, the new X-Rite package was announced, including the mystery surrounding upgrade eligibility.

http://www.xritephoto.com/custom_page.aspx?PageID=198

The new package looks fine and dandy, however, it is as I feared, X-Rite have rather stiffed their loyal customers.  :(

I would be interested to know how many you are in the same position as me in this regard.

I own ProfileMaker Pro 5 with i1 Pro and i1 iO scanning table, all of which cost me several thousands of dollars. After X-Rite bought out Gretag they offered me the "opportunity" to upgrade to ProfileMaker Platinum, which is identical software to my ProfileMaker Pro but with a different name, for the princely sum of £877 ($1387). I don't see this as much of an opportunity, seems a bit steep for just a name change.... (yes you might have got the full set of modules over say Photostudio or Publish, however some people have already upgraded to include extra modules).

Now it turns out that without this "upgrade" I am not eligible to upgrade to the new i1 package; at all. Because I own the flagship Pro software but not one of the "Prosumer" packages ( i1 Photo etc ) I don't even qualify for the second tier upgrade. It seems we PM5 users are completely disinherited...

I really don't want to be that guy that posts on forums just to vent his anger at <insert unscrupulous company here>, so I've done this as a poll, it would be interesting just to see how many of us will be affected by this.

Constructive discussion also welcomed.
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: djoy on October 28, 2010, 06:56:52 am
Interestingly, in the new software there's no mention of Scanner profiling.

Has anyone seen anything regarding this functionality? It's a function I would need to use.
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: probep on October 28, 2010, 10:18:18 am
Interestingly, in the new software there's no mention of Scanner profiling.

Has anyone seen anything regarding this functionality? It's a function I would need to use.
See http://www.xritephoto.com/custom_page.aspx?PageID=188
Quote
Scanner Profiling
* Industry reports show that support is no longer needed
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: probep on October 28, 2010, 10:31:52 am
By the way I see only DNG profiling for cameras, but not ICC profiling.
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: Doyle Yoder on October 28, 2010, 10:48:00 am
Scanner Profiling
* Industry reports show that support is no longer needed

Makes you really wonder what the quality of this software will really be, or what kind of testing was done, and by whom.

Totally unbelievable. Do these people not live in the real world?

Doyle
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: probep on October 29, 2010, 10:04:52 am
Have anyone tested new i1 packages?
Do they include a profile viewer? What's about a profile editor, ICC profiling for cameras?
X-Rite announced (http://www.xrite.com/company_press_room.aspx?Type=item&News=650) that "The new i1 Professional Color Management Solutions will be available in October 2010 from X-Rite’s online store". Did anyone try to order the i1Profiler?
Is there a demo version?
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: digitaldog on October 29, 2010, 12:28:03 pm
Have anyone tested new i1 packages?

Anyone who has is under NDA.
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: probep on October 29, 2010, 12:42:01 pm
I understand it. But today is the last working day of October...
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: Czornyj on October 29, 2010, 01:49:30 pm
By the way I see only DNG profiling for cameras, but not ICC profiling.
C1 users won't be delighted. It suddenly disapeard from beta-Passport first, now it seems it won't be supported by i1profiler. Seems like a trend or something.
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: Rhossydd on October 29, 2010, 02:54:30 pm
Yes, this is pretty poor.

Paul
A PM5 owner, but not platinum.
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: digitaldog on October 29, 2010, 03:10:08 pm
I understand it. But today is the last working day of October...

That in itself has no bearing on NDAs.
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: digitaldog on October 29, 2010, 07:19:11 pm
I understand it. But today is the last working day of October...

This press release indicates November 2010
http://www.creativepro.com/article/new-color-manager-pro-photographers
Quote
Pricing and availability
The new i1 Professional Color Management Solutions including i1Photo Pro will be available in November 2010 from X-Rite’s online store (North America and Europe), and also from the company’s worldwide network of resellers.
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: probep on October 29, 2010, 10:37:44 pm
This press release indicates November 2010
http://www.creativepro.com/article/new-color-manager-pro-photographers
Thank you, Andrew.
But that is strange indeed. Guys from X-Rite announced on October 28 that products will be released in October. But on the next day (October 29) they said: in November.
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: keith_cooper on October 30, 2010, 05:17:26 am
I'm sure many of us would like to comment further on this thread, but as Andrew has said - those who know are under an obligation not to discuss it ;-)

My own press info based i1Profiler (http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/stuff/?p=644) announcement says October... it's what the version I was given says. However I'll not be publishing any reviews/articles until it actually launches...
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: aaronchan on October 30, 2010, 05:33:04 am
I bought my PM5 i1 bundle like 2 months ago, so do I still get the free upgrade as it said before?
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: digitaldog on October 30, 2010, 12:50:53 pm
Quote
I own ProfileMaker Pro 5 with i1 Pro and i1 iO scanning table, all of which cost me several thousands of dollars. After X-Rite bought out Gretag they offered me the "opportunity" to upgrade to ProfileMaker Platinum, which is identical software to my ProfileMaker Pro but with a different name, for the princely sum of £877 ($1387). I don't see this as much of an opportunity, seems a bit steep for just a name change.... (yes you might have got the full set of modules over say Photostudio or Publish, however some people have already upgraded to include extra modules).

Now it turns out that without this "upgrade" I am not eligible to upgrade to the new i1 package; at all. Because I own the flagship Pro software but not one of the "Prosumer" packages ( i1 Photo etc ) I don't even qualify for the second tier upgrade. It seems we PM5 users are completely disinherited...

The info on some web sites (press releases) is incorrect. ALL PM5 owners will be eligible for an upgrade.  Also any MonacoPROFILER Gold or Platinum are eligible. The xrite site only says Platinum right now but this will also be corrected by Monday morning latest.

It is correct however that PM4 customers are not eligible for an upgrade.
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: Rhossydd on October 30, 2010, 02:25:19 pm
The info on some web sites (press releases) is incorrect. ALL PM5 owners will be eligible for an upgrade. 
That sounds a lot more reasonable.

The next issue is if there's any compelling reason to upgrade from PM5. I guess we'll find out when the 'people that know' are out of NDAs and when there's independent reviews available.
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: TylerB on October 30, 2010, 02:43:58 pm
I've been pressing for clear answers about "Gold" on this for months. The Gold products quietly became discontinued lately, and I was informed just about a week ago that my best bet was to find a good price on the Platinum upgrade, which will then be eligible for the new software. Xrite folks would magically disappear time and again over the last several months when asked a direct question about upgrades from Gold, then Gold disappeared from the current product list, and an excellent dealer informed me of my options after pressing hard for an answer from Xrite.
Also, you will have to trade in your dongle, so your old software won't work any more, allowing for no real transition period, any ability to relinearize existing Monaco profiles, and of course no input profiling from there on out.
I chose to take my chances, keep the Gold, buy the new outright when it becomes available... when one of them becomes the go-to 100% of the time, I'll see if I can sell the other.
Something to consider, an expensive option, but the only one applicable for some of us.
Tyler
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: digitaldog on October 30, 2010, 03:51:55 pm
The next issue is if there's any compelling reason to upgrade from PM5. I guess we'll find out when the 'people that know' are out of NDAs and when there's independent reviews available.

You will indeed!
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: nkpoulsen on October 30, 2010, 08:11:40 pm
It'll be interesting to hear about the new features.  I wonder what improvements they'll make in profiling papers with optical brighteners. 

It's good to hear that PM5 will be eligible for upgrades.  I've never liked X-Rite, nor their marketing practices.  But it would indeed be surprising, if they didn't offer this upgrade.

I have the equivalent of PM5 platinum.  So, I'm not sure whether it'll make sense to upgrade, especially since my use is primarily for personal needs.
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: Doyle Yoder on October 31, 2010, 10:31:27 am
See http://www.xritephoto.com/custom_page.aspx?PageID=188

Scanner Profiling
* Industry reports show that support is no longer needed

Interesting how they now have removed this.

Doyle
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: Rhossydd on October 31, 2010, 10:47:43 am
Also, you will have to trade in your dongle, so your old software won't work any more, allowing for no real transition period,
If that's true it's a really pain, especially if the new package lacks some of the old functionality.
As the i1 packages aren't dongle protected people will still be able to use those after the i1 upgrade, it seems rather mean if the PM5 owners can't have the same back compatibility options.

I guess more will become clear once more details are published. Why they can't just release all the information in one hit amazes me, if the product is being stock piled to ship in the next few weeks they must have decided all this by now.
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: digitaldog on October 31, 2010, 12:34:54 pm
Also, you will have to trade in your dongle, so your old software won't work any more, allowing for no real transition period, any ability to relinearize existing Monaco profiles, and of course no input profiling from there on out.

Where did you get that info?
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: nkpoulsen on October 31, 2010, 04:13:19 pm
When one looks at the page below, it appears that their flagship product will not support scanners.

http://www.xritephoto.com/custom_page.aspx?PageID=186

I wonder if they'll have an add-on module to support scanners?

Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: djoy on November 01, 2010, 11:09:39 am
I was talking to my dealer on Thursday / Friday who was trying (and failing) to get a definitive answer from X-Rite, who are :


even my dealer couldn't get a straight answer from X-Rite, it's arguable that even X-Rite know the answers. X-Rite seemingly were in communication lockdown at the end of last week, unable or unwilling to respond to queries.

Interestingly, despite the "all purchases after Apr 2010 will automatically be eligable for upgrade", there are suggestions that all upgrades will require a fee. This has yet to be clarified.

IF the upgrade from a qualifying product requires the submission of the dongle, this renders "upgrade" impossible for some, since the new product does not cover the full functionality of the old, i.e. if you have and use the scanner module in PM5, you cannot submit your dongle to upgrade as the new software doesn't support scanner profiling....

Similarly, if you now want to you use the scanner functionality, you cannot upgrade any existing product to enable the scanner module since as of today the upgrades have all been discontinued.....
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: djoy on November 03, 2010, 02:04:22 pm
Ok, here's what I've learned from my dealer, my thanks to the ever helpful Mr Rick Hatmaker from Chromix who has been chasing this for days. After a great deal of digging on his part, the policies are now made clear.

Owners of any full version of ProfileMaker Pro 5 (Platinum, Photostudio, Publish etc) are eligible to upgrade to i1Profiler on the TierA upgrade plan, so $499. This does not appy to owners of individual modules, just full packages. This also applies to Monaco Profiler v6 and upwards who qualify for TierA.

Owners of ProfileMaker Pro 4 or Monaco Profiler below v4.6 are eligible for the TierB upgrade, at $899.

Furthermore, i1Profiler will use the same purple HASP dongle that was used by PM5, owners of Monaco or non-purple dongles will have to do a dongle exchange (ooerr missus).

I have also enquired as to whether upgrading to to i1Profiler with your existing purple dongle will disable the legacy PM5 software, and have been told it will not disable the existing tools, which is a relief for those of us who use the scanner module ( which doesn't exist in the new tools.....  :o )

So, it's not as bad as we feared, however it's pretty clear that X-Rite needs to work on their communication skills....

Hope this information is helpful to you.
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on November 03, 2010, 03:36:22 pm
Hope this information is helpful to you.

Yes it is. Thanks for sharing.

What kind of port does the dongle connect to, USB?

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: digitaldog on November 03, 2010, 03:37:43 pm
Same dongles we’ve had for years with the various GMB/X-Rite products, USB.
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: Doyle Yoder on November 03, 2010, 03:43:34 pm
Furthermore, i1Profiler will use the same purple HASP dongle that was used by PM5, owners of Monaco or non-purple dongles will have to do a dongle exchange (ooerr missus).

I have also enquired as to whether upgrading to to i1Profiler with your existing purple dongle will disable the legacy PM5 software, and have been told it will not disable the existing tools, which is a relief for those of us who use the scanner module ( which doesn't exist in the new tools.....  :o )

So, it's not as bad as we feared, however it's pretty clear that X-Rite needs to work on their communication skills....

Hope this information is helpful to you.

So if I get this right, If you own Monaco you lose input profiling since you won't be able to use it or will the new dongle work with Monaco also? If you own PM5 you will still have a option for input profiling.

What will the full non upgrade price be?

Doyle
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: digitaldog on November 03, 2010, 03:45:43 pm
So if I get this right, If you own Monaco you lose input profiling since you won't be able to use it or will the new dongle work with Monaco also? If you own PM5 you will still have a option for input profiling.

The dongles allow you to use your legacy software, both build input profiles.
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on November 03, 2010, 03:49:45 pm
Same dongles we’ve had for years with the various GMB/X-Rite products, USB.

Thanks for confirming. My Eye-One Pro is the dongle for my current setup, so I dont know what others have been using with the other hardware/software combinations ... Seems slightly redundant to use a dongle when the hardware ID can serve as a unique identifier.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: digitaldog on November 03, 2010, 03:51:49 pm
Dongels built into instruments (the way we should be working) should be supported as well.
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: djoy on November 04, 2010, 06:22:02 am
The dongles allow you to use your legacy software, both build input profiles.

I think Doyle was referring to the need to do a dongle exchange if you're on Monaco Profiler, or have a non-purple dongle.

Presumably the dongle you get back will just be a new purple dongle for use with i1Profiler, expecting X-Rite to have augmented it to enable your legacy software on a case by case basic is.... unlikely.

My reading was the same as Doyle's, if you have a non-purple dongle, and/or Monaco Profiler, having to give up your existing dongle will make your legacy software unusable. If you already have PM5 or a purple dongle, then your legacy software should remain working.
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: shewhorn on November 04, 2010, 09:32:34 am
If you already have PM5 or a purple dongle, then your legacy software should remain working.

I think some of the answers we just may have to wait and see. I bought Monaco Profiler a few months ago which has a free upgrade to i1Profiler. The dongle is green. I doubt they'd have shipped a new software package with a dongle that would need to be exchanged. Doesn't mean it's impossible but I think it's probably unlikely.

Cheers, Joe
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: digitaldog on November 04, 2010, 10:36:37 am
I think some of the answers we just may have to wait and see. I bought Monaco Profiler a few months ago which has a free upgrade to i1Profiler. The dongle is green. I doubt they'd have shipped a new software package with a dongle that would need to be exchanged. Doesn't mean it's impossible but I think it's probably unlikely.

Right, the PROFILER dongle is green (at least mine is), PMP is purple. You just keep your dongles.
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: djoy on November 04, 2010, 01:32:18 pm
Right, the PROFILER dongle is green (at least mine is).

Can we look forward to your full review sometime in the not too distant future Andrew?  ;D
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: digitaldog on November 04, 2010, 01:35:05 pm
Can we look forward to your full review sometime in the not too distant future Andrew?  ;D

Don’t know if I’ll tackle that or not. We’ll see. I might do something for Michael here on LL depending on how the reaction of something coming soon is received <g>.
There’s a lot of stuff here, I might be willing to cover a “module” functionality as a start.
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: rickhatCHROMiX on November 04, 2010, 04:07:33 pm
Hello.

This has been very confusing for users and resellers to make sense of. I believe we now have a good handle on things.
As of Friday Nov. 5, X-Rite has confirmed the below information is correct and reflects their new policies.

There are really only 3 options to consider for people upgrading:

i1 Publish New Full (Software Only) $999 This version will be necessary for PMv4.x, MPv3.x, and Stand Alone iSis users
i1Profiler UPGRADE 'B' for i1Basic Pro, i1Basic, i1Design LT, i1Photo LT, i1Pro OEM $899
i1Profiler UPGRADE 'A' for ANY full version of ProfileMaker v5, All Monaco Profiler 4.x versions, i1Photo Pro, i1Photo, i1Photo SG, i1Proof, i1XT, i1XTreme $499

X-Rite is not taking away or overwriting any existing i1Proi1Match, PM5 or MP dongles. Users get to continue using their legacy solutions if desired. However, X-Rite will probably verify that the original dongle is legitimate, and eligible for upgrade.


Dongle Upgrades, Notes:
X-Rite will upgrade an i1Pro or ProfileMaker dongle through the i1Profiler software interface. Users will purchase either Upgrade A or Upgrade B as applicable, and when they receive the upgrade, the box will include an activation code . X-Rite will not use the existing upgrade paths in i1Diagnostics or License Tool.

MonacoPROFILER users will have to call an X-Rite Service Center, where X-Rite will verify that their existing dongle is valid.  They will then receive their new i1Publish dongle by mail within 5 business days.

Hope that helps.

Rick Hatmaker
CHROMiX

Link to the product page at CHROMiX FWIW:
<http://www2.chromix.com/colorgear/shop/productdetail.cxsa?toolid=50136&pid=10449>

We will post any new or relevant information here as soon as it is confirmed or is official from X-Rite.
Again, As of Friday Nov. 5, X-Rite has confirmed the above information is correct and reflects their new policies.
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: eronald on November 07, 2010, 06:38:30 am
The software itself was shown at Photokina. It has a very nice innovative interface.

Some of the examples shown had a very different look to them from the historical products, with much better black mapping, bit there were no really good examples available at that point.

Those who protest about the delay to product release can profitably employ their time to try and get a decent print from Snow Leopard/Photoshop/Epson. I'd say that there too we can expect some updates.


Edmund


Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: probep on March 02, 2011, 11:13:33 am
4th Q 2010?

Previous message was:
"X-Rite previously announced a ship date of mid-November for the new i1 Professional Solutions. However, based on feedback from independent industry experts who serve as beta testers and X-Rite’s own testing, several useful enhancements are currently being incorporated into the product. The new i1 Professional Color Management Solutions are now expected to ship in February 2011."

Last message is:
"X-Rite previously announced a ship date of mid-November for the new i1 Professional Solutions. However, based on feedback from independent industry experts who serve as beta testers and X-Rite’s own testing, several useful enhancements are currently being incorporated into the product. The new i1 Professional Color Management Solutions are expected to be available soon."

God damn.
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: rickhatCHROMiX on March 02, 2011, 11:31:41 am
It is a little frustrating. Hang in there.

The latest word is possibly May 1st.

Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: Rhossydd on March 02, 2011, 02:33:57 pm
A UK dealer is claiming the release date as 4th April
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: Czornyj on March 02, 2011, 02:38:11 pm
The latest word is sometime March.

A UK dealer is claiming the release date as 4th April

...but which year?
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: George Marinos on March 04, 2011, 03:16:47 am
Good question!!!
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: Rhossydd on March 08, 2011, 01:42:38 pm
Finally saw this demonstrated at Focus on Imaging 2011 at the NEC Birmingham today. Apparently a beta version and still expecting release to retail on 4th April 2011.

lots of useful features and usability looks to be much improved over PMP, but not such a dumb/wizard driven interface as i1Match. (I didn't bother to look at the basic interface)

What was particularly interesting was that the X-Rite rep I talked was explaining how much better shadow detail would be with the new profiling engine.
Now excuse my cynicism, but does that mean in plain language that previous profiles built by GMB/X-Rite software have got it wrong ? or to put it another way, older profiles had shadows too dark ?
It would be somewhat ironic if after all the recent fuss over the 'my prints are too dark' issues the major player in profile creation shifts what it considers as correct shadow detail to a lighter tonal range. Maybe a pragmatic shift to address the imaging community's issues with print/screen matching ? if so I wonder where that leaves the pundits who say that the current systems works fine ?

I'm looking forward to getting my copy and also reading what the experts think about this once they are out of their non-disclosure agreements.

Paul
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: digitaldog on March 08, 2011, 01:59:00 pm
It would be somewhat ironic if after all the recent fuss over the 'my prints are too dark' issues the major player in profile creation shifts what it considers as correct shadow detail to a lighter tonal range.

That’s not the case. And I’d take what this rep said with a grain of salt.
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: Rhossydd on March 08, 2011, 02:17:52 pm
That’s not the case. And I’d take what this rep said with a grain of salt.
Looking at the samples shown of prints made with profiles from different packages, the new one definitely looked to have slightly lighter shadows.

To me this makes a lot of sense; If most people are finding difficulties with shadows too dark, lighten them so that more people find them acceptable. It's just a pragmatic adaptation to the predominant technology.

Yes, I do know the issues and how to resolve them, but if 99% (or more) of users can't get it all(CM) to work well enough maybe a pragmatic shift in attitude/standards is called for. I see this new profiling engine delivering more widely acceptable profiles.

For the record, this change in profile behaviour is slight, to say the least, and most 'my prints are too dark' issues will still need to be resolved by setting appropriate display and viewing luminances rather than just using different profiles.




Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: digitaldog on March 08, 2011, 02:23:39 pm
The question is if the prints were made using a Perceptual rendering intent in which there is no standard method and any profile package can season to taste. And the differences should be subtle, nothing that would account for the prints too dark issue. The engine in i1P IS different and IMHO is superior. But its not something that is going to leap off the page or make you think legacy profiles are “wrong”. In addition, unless the two samples used identical targets and measuring devices, you are now comparing apples and oranges. And i1P’s patch generation is not the same as PMP (its better). That said, you could, with some work, use that target reference in ProfileMaker Pro. So what this fellow told you, and what you saw are so undefined and the product is still being tweaked that basically you can’t take anything to the bank. When the product comes out, and when folks can do actual apples to apples comparisons (correctly), data points can be provided. But in no way are the older profile engines in any way responsible for the dark print issue which is mostly user error in terms of display calibration and/or print viewing conditions.
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: Rhossydd on March 09, 2011, 03:49:34 am
The engine in i1P IS different and IMHO is superior.......
] But in no way are the older profile engines in any way responsible for the dark print issue which is mostly user error in terms of display calibration and/or print viewing conditions.

We're both singing the same song in our last sentences.

I'm just wryly interested in why better shadow separation (ie lighter) is being touted as 'better' if things were all fine and dandy before.

As you say, until we actually get hold of the final product we won't really know how significant, if at all, this issue will be.

Quote
the product is still being tweaked
I very much doubt that the core profiling system of the product is seeing any changes in specification this close to release. It would be a worry if it was. At this stage I would be expecting them only to change the release code if any major compatibility issues have come to light through the RC testing stage, oh, and get the readme right to note any significant issues that can't be put right yet.
I would rather be expecting them to be starting to put together the first update package as less serious issues are revealed and resolved.
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: ToniF on March 09, 2011, 04:32:02 am
There was a post at facebook yesterday - they hope to release before May 1st.....

The post got removed now.

Toni
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: digitaldog on March 09, 2011, 09:41:20 am
I very much doubt that the core profiling system of the product is seeing any changes in specification this close to release.

Well my NDA doesn’t allow me to go into details as to why that’s not a good assumption!
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: Rhossydd on March 09, 2011, 02:46:38 pm
that’s not a good assumption!
Oh dear, that sounds like bad news.
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: digitaldog on March 09, 2011, 02:50:00 pm
Oh dear, that sounds like bad news.

I don’t see why. The final product and its capabilities is all anyone should be concerned with.
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: Iliah on March 09, 2011, 11:59:32 pm
Better shadow details does not mean shadows are lighter. It means more contrast is preserved in shadows, mostly. There is no way one can bend print contrast ratio being less than 1:250, mostly 1:180 or lower. So if your black point on the monitor is set to 0.5 cd/m^2 your white point is going to be 250 times higher to reach the same contrast range. Means 125 cd/m^2 max.
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: Rhossydd on March 10, 2011, 02:46:58 am
I don’t see why. The final product and its capabilities is all anyone should be concerned with.
Just when will the product becomes final is what worries me. If they're still messing around with the core functions very close to release it may take several bug fix updates to get it to a state that can be considered a "final" product. It's no fun buying expensive software that doesn't deliver the expected performance and the end users end up being unpaid beta testers.
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: David Good on March 10, 2011, 04:35:49 am
The final product and its capabilities is all anyone should be concerned with.

Yes, but, the number of delays give the impression that there are major problems yet to be resolved. That said, I would rather wait for the finished working product than be frustrated with buggy software and frequent updates. I do plan to upgrade when it is ready for prime time.

Dave
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: digitaldog on March 10, 2011, 09:28:17 am
Quote
If they're still messing around with the core functions very close to release it may take several bug fix updates to get it to a state that can be considered a "final" product.

This impression is based on your experience releasing software (software for building color profiles)? As Bobby would say, don’t worry, be happy.
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: eronald on March 12, 2011, 12:08:43 am
But in no way are the older profile engines in any way responsible for the dark print issue which is mostly user error in terms of display calibration and/or print viewing conditions.

The first part of that sentence I agree with. The second part is pure Andrew Rodney. I suggest we rewrite the sentence as:

"But in no way are the older print profile engines in any way responsible for the dark print issue which is mostly programming error in terms of application print code, in the operating system print code, bit rot, or the lack of provision of a clear workflow for the creation of profiling targets; user error or faulty display profiles are sometimes contributory, as is the user pressing the big red 'Hurt Me!' Button called printer settings. Changing your display profiling software may help."

Note that I don't completely disagree with Andrew, I just think that some dilution is appropriate :)

Edmund
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: eronald on March 12, 2011, 12:23:16 am
This impression is based on your experience releasing software (software for building color profiles)? As Bobby would say, don’t worry, be happy.

Look at the iteration of Argyll; every version seems to have a new rendering and new rendering bugs.

Actually, I quite like the old Monaco Profiler, I wish they just wrapped the new interface around that and released it as an i1 product, with any additional stuff accruing later as an update. The removal of Profile Maker Pro RGB renderings from the new i1 software I would consider as a major improvement :)

Edmund
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: eronald on March 12, 2011, 12:25:57 am
There was a post at facebook yesterday - they hope to release before May 1st.....

The post got removed now.

Toni

Mayday! Mayday! Mayday!
:)

Edmund
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: Iliah on March 12, 2011, 01:35:23 am
> But in no way are the older profile engines in any way responsible for the dark print issue which is mostly user error in terms of display calibration and/or print viewing conditions.

Here is the question I'm asked many times: why I can set my monitor to 1:200 contrast ratio and make a good representation of the 1:1000 scene I shot; but to match a 1:120 print viewed in a Normlicht booth I still need to set my monitor to 1:120 or even lower. I'm told by far too many seasoned photographers that current printer profiling does not match user expectations, and those expectations are not baseless.
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on March 12, 2011, 04:20:34 am
Here is the question I'm asked many times: why I can set my monitor to 1:200 contrast ratio and make a good representation of the 1:1000 scene I shot;

Hi Iliah,

Good question, but I guess it comes down to "a good repersentation". How is that defined? It's probably largely subjective.

[QUOTE... but to match a 1:120 print viewed in a Normlicht booth I still need to set my monitor to 1:120 or even lower.[/QUOTE]

Well, to me that makes sense. One needs to set the monitor to something similar as the goal to allow a predictable preview. Therefore, I think the issue lies in the appreciation of "good" in the high contrast case. That's where the human visual system comes in. When viewed on a large enough screen, our eyes will automatically compensate for local contrast differences. When the differences are large, then there is more compensation. However, when the differences are small, it's going to remain pretty much as it is.

Quote
I'm told by far too many seasoned photographers that current printer profiling does not match user expectations, and those expectations are not baseless.

When the mismatch is not based on physics (as measured with a spectro, and corrected with a profile, and viewed in a calibrated environment), it must be psychological/vison related.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: Iliah on March 12, 2011, 07:11:10 am
Good presentation is when the paying client considers it good. Let's talk b/w film for a moment. Film in the camera captures a routine landscape with 10 stops contrast ratio, in a more or less (log-log) linear manner. Next, it is printed on a photopaper, with its 6 stops contrast ratio, less than for of which are linear while the other part is toe and shoulder. The system is balanced in the way that it is easy to use. All necessary perceptual compressions are in place. Profiles are concerned not with the physiological, but with colorimetric presentation. That's where colour management fails in the eyes of many end-users.
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on March 12, 2011, 08:42:37 am
The system is balanced in the way that it is easy to use. All necessary perceptual compressions are in place. Profiles are concerned not with the physiological, but with colorimetric presentation. That's where colour management fails in the eyes of many end-users.

Hi Iliah,

I agree with the assessment, but not with the conclusion we should draw from that. It may fail in the eyes of many end-users, but perhaps they are blaming the wrong party ... It's not the tool, it's the photographer!

I'll give an example, imagine a scene with a huge dynamic range, and a capture medium that's capable of recording it without compromises. Now, we output that huge range, but with a simple level adjustment to squeeze the huge dynamic range into what's possible on the output medium while preserving shadow and highlight info. We end up with a dull low contrast image. It's not the profile that's to blame. The reason it doesn't look good is because we ignored the perceptual aspects. What should have been done is proper tonemapping (which is scene dependent and cannot be caught in a standard physical recipe).

Another example. We know that on non-glossy paper, we need to increase shadow contrast, yet the measurable physical correction by a profile is not adequate. That's where the photographer/printer can make a difference, IMHO of course.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: Iliah on March 12, 2011, 09:10:51 am
Same photographer who can successfully use a traditional (legacy, as some try to put it) darkroom, who understands grades, compression, sensitometry lacks those convenient and proven tools assuring a systematic approach in a digital darkroom. Have you ever compared a characteristic curve of photopaper and, say, inkjet paper? Does any profiling tool really takes care of the issue? Why it is so difficult to realise users have certain expectations that need to be met? Why the regress?

In regards to the first example you suggested - I'm afraid I do not know what level move you mean, but in photography tonal compression starts with contrast, or grade. Based on the particular neg density range that constitutes the scene to be printed and midtone placement we decide on the paper grade and exposure. It is a standard recipe.

Same for the second example - knowing paper characteristic curve and density range / midtone placement on the negative all things are banal.

We had a system that was developed for perception. Now the system is broken.
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: Wayne Fox on March 14, 2011, 06:30:14 pm
I don't think color management was designed nor intended to address the problems of compressing real world data to be pleasing to the eye, handling compression of toe/shoulder, etc.  That's the job of other parts of the system (and yes camera profiles can do this do a degree).  Color management is intended to make device translations to achieve similar results, no matter if that information is good or bad.  While profile's can be used in a way to handle this, it's not it's purpose and this makes the profiles extremely circumstance specific.

While there are certainly many aspects that could be improved (like a standard that could be implemented directly in all hardware without user intervention), it's not really that broken.
Title: Re: New X-Rite Software announced - and upgrade eligibility (or lack thereof)
Post by: Iliah on March 14, 2011, 07:11:50 pm
> I don't think color management was designed nor intended to address the problems of compressing real world data  to be pleasing to the eye

No, not to be pleasing to the eye, but to be printable and displayable. And yes, it was not designed to do it - so, it needs redesign.

> yes camera profiles can do this do a degree

Absolutely not. To do it (even to a degree) the characteristic curves of both input and output must be taken into account.

> Color management is intended to make device translations to achieve similar results

Exactly. And same perception between two devices is about similar results.