Luminous Landscape Forum
Site & Board Matters => About This Site => Topic started by: Craig Arnold on October 12, 2010, 03:57:54 am
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Now I don't believe there's any such thing as "overpriced" exactly, when someone says something is overpriced they are either:
1. Bemoaning the fact that they are at a place on the demand curve below where the supply curve crosses it.
2. Commenting on relative value compared to other products.
So just for the feedback I wanted to say that:
1. Like Ferraris or MFDBs my place on the demand curve falls far below the selling price, even though I would like to watch the videos.
2. You might want to consider that the sale price for episodes of TV on iTunes, etc is below $5 per episode, even for very current shows with high production values. You can buy a whole season of most shows on DVD or iTunes for around $15-$20. At $10 per episode x 26 = $260 !!
So if you wanted a little bit of market research - I would probably have been happy to pay up to around $35 for the series, or $1.50 - $2.00 per episode if I wasn't going to buy all of them. I expect you would maximise your profit stream at a much lower per-episode cost.
Anyway, I hope your sales go well, but I imagine many people will feel as I do, that the current price is simply too high. For those who are able to easily afford the purchase I hope the show is as good as it looks.
This is absolutely not meant to be a bashing thread, and I would be very disappointed if anyone took it as such.
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I second that. I think that the pricing is pretty accurate for educational and site-specific material that is not otherwise available, like your excellent tutorials for example, but for a commercially available product 20$/h feels kinda steep. I know, I know, the right price is the price that a large enough number of customers are willing to pay etc etc. I'm just sayin' mkay.
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There are a lot of factors that go into pricing, in particular with this product.
Firstly, LuLa isn't the iTunes store. We don't do millions of downloads a day. This means that our bandwidth costs are much higher, and also our credit card processing costs (because of our low volume) are much higher as well. This makes any individual transaction under $10 uneconomical.
We've priced these episodes as appropriately as we can, given the limitations of our business model, revenue sharing with Art and his producers, transaction costs, and other overhead.
Michael
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...This makes any individual transaction under $10 uneconomical...
How about some sort of cascading volume discounts? Just a thought.
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If this flies and you sell lots of episodes, then great, LL makes more money and the site keeps going and everyone is happy. Including me, even though I won't see the programs.
However it's possible that your cost structure is such that the per-episode price is just too high to sell very many episodes and this is not going to generate any significant revenue.
So as Slobodan says:
... perhaps a credit system whereby one might buy 10 episodes for $xx, to keep transaction costs lower. No doubt some work for your developer to keep track of the # of episodes downloaded etc, but should be do-able.
I presume you have investigated the possiblity of selling through iTunes? Of course that begs the question of what LL's role is, but you would probably be generating a very significant percentage of the sales because it's advertised/endorsed by LL. There may be some way to monetise that. Just a thought.
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some thoughts:
- the iTunes Store is not really feasible - Apple takes a disproportionately huge slice + the large development costs. Sure they have a huge potential market with huge number of offerings - but then the customer has to find us. My guess is that our visibility & market penetration on this site is pretty good.
- There is a unique selling proposition on these videos: they are HD 720P which is unavailable elsewhere.
- The HD format is designed to import directly onto the iPad through iTunes
- We may or may not offer a 'per 13 show season package' but the pricing will never be low enough for some. :) And certainly will never be as low as the SD product elsewhere.
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I don't wish to be a nuisance, but I do think customer feedback is a good thing. Anyways, at the current pricing I too can't afford the product. At $5.00/episode I would be quite happy to purchase these episodes, they look great!
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I have to agree with the majority, price is too high.
You can buy both series I and II on DVD for $130 (http://store.artwolfe.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3&products_id=146), half the price the site is asking.
I for one won't be buying at $10 per 30min episode.
Sorry.
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Nobody's a 'nuisance' and there's no need to apologize! The pricing will be staying much as it is and naturally it's buyers' choice
::)
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There are a lot of factors that go into pricing, in particular with this product.
Firstly, LuLa isn't the iTunes store. We don't do millions of downloads a day. This means that our bandwidth costs are much higher, and also our credit card processing costs (because of our low volume) are much higher as well. This makes any individual transaction under $10 uneconomical.
We've priced these episodes as appropriately as we can, given the limitations of our business model, revenue sharing with Art and his producers, transaction costs, and other overhead.
Michael
I follow you about the transaction costs, but offering packages is a solution for this.
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You guys could always save your money on the towering $10/DVD cost ... by traveling to these places yourself, video-photographing (and editing) everything with your own equipment ... and then you could watch your own "free" DVDs at home (http://www.johnkoerner.org/Emoticons/laugh.gif)
Jack
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You guys could always save your money on the towering $10/DVD cost ... by traveling to these places yourself, video-photographing (and editing) everything with your own equipment ... and then you could watch your own "free" DVDs at home (http://www.johnkoerner.org/Emoticons/laugh.gif)
You'd have a point, perhaps, were that the only alternative to purchasing this program especially when discussing DVDs. It isn't as mentioned and linked to above.
One the other hand, a few select episodes might be a more convenient purchase since they can be downloaded, especially for those of us who live outside the US.
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You'd have a point, perhaps, were that the only alternative to purchasing this program especially when discussing DVDs. It isn't as mentioned and linked to above.
One the other hand, a few select episodes might be a more convenient purchase since they can be downloaded, especially for those of us who live outside the US.
Not sure I'd want to buy and watch all of them. I'd have to watch one and see if that viewing warranted the purchase of others.
If it did, and I decided to purchase all of them, I would privately inquire about a possible multiple discount rather than publicly cry over it not being available.
What gets me is people always want to cry about not getting what they want "easier," rather than appreciate the effort it took to make the product available in the first place.
Jack
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Not sure I'd want to buy and watch all of them. I'd have to watch one and see if that viewing warranted the purchase of others.
If it did, and I decided to purchase all of them, I would privately inquire about a possible multiple discount rather than publicly cry over it not being available.
What gets me is people always want to cry about not getting what they want "easier," rather than appreciate the effort it took to make the product available in the first place.
Jack.
I took the original post and subsequent ones as more of a constructive discussion about the pricing, and not complaining. In isolation $10 per film seems quite reasonable, and I have to say the quality of the sample is excellent, but $260 for the complete set does seem steep. Very few people will commit to that sum of money (that is my supposition), and so the suggestion of a tiered pricing structure seems sensible. If we are just interested in one or two films no problem, but I would should think that a viewer that really enjoys one or two might well be tempted to see the complete set - if the price is reasonable. I imagine the people at LuLa are very interested in feedback of this kind because if they do not sell a reasonable volume they need to know if it is the product or the pricing at fault. I think $5 each would be a good price for me - especially if I was going to end up buying a number of the films.
Jim
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I took the original post and subsequent ones as more of a constructive discussion about the pricing, and not complaining. In isolation $10 per film seems quite reasonable, and I have to say the quality of the sample is excellent, but $260 for the complete set does seem steep. Very few people will commit to that sum of money (that is my supposition), and so the suggestion of a tiered pricing structure seems sensible. If we are just interested in one or two films no problem, but I would should think that a viewer that really enjoys one or two might well be tempted to see the complete set - if the price is reasonable. I imagine the people at LuLa are very interested in feedback of this kind because if they do not sell a reasonable volume they need to know if it is the product or the pricing at fault. I think $5 each would be a good price for me - especially if I was going to end up buying a number of the films.
Jim
I agree with you Jim, in spirit.
Asking $10 for one DVD is reasonable from the seller's end ... and (if the viewer really enjoys it) wanting a discount for ordering the whole set together is also reasonable on the buyer's end.
However, a buyer directly stating that a price is "too high" is complaining. Publicly stating, "I won't buy it at that price," is also complaining. (Denial of this doesn't change it.)
Had the OP (and some others) just asked, "Is there any way to get a discount on ordering all the DVDs together?" ... rather than stating all the reasons why they won't be buying them ... then I would agree that the intent was not to complain. (As Slobodan suggested.)
Certainly, enough information and resources have been given away on this site for years NOT to publicly quibble with a man over $5 ... and to approach the prospect of getting a discount for ordering the whole set in a non-complaining manner.
JMHO,
Jack
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I agree with you Jim, in spirit.
Asking $10 for one DVD is reasonable from the seller's end ... and (if the viewer really enjoys it) wanting a discount for ordering the whole set together is also reasonable on the buyer's end.
However, a buyer directly stating that a price is "too high" is complaining. Publicly stating, "I won't buy it at that price," is also complaining. (Denial of this doesn't change it.)
Had the OP (and some others) just asked, "Is there any way to get a discount on ordering all the DVDs together?" ... rather than stating all the reasons why they won't be buying them ... then I would agree that the intent was not to complain. (As Slobodan suggested.)
Certainly, enough information and resources have been given away on this site for years NOT to publicly quibble with a man over $5 ... and to approach the prospect of getting a discount for ordering the whole set in a non-complaining manner.
JMHO,
Jack
Well obviously I am very disappointed that you have taken it this way. I was sure that at least someone would.
Over the years I have purchased all the LLVJ episodes since number 10, all 4 lightroom tutorials and the camera to print tutorial, as well as Michael's Bangladesh book. So I don't think I'm quite the freeloader or whinger you claim.
As a person who has purchased extensively from the LL before I thought that MR might find it interesting to know that $10 for a single 30-minute TV episode was a cost that made me balk where nothing else on this site has ever done so before.
Last week I never even knew the program existed. I am sure I'll manage somehow to overcome my bitterness and grief that I can't/won't pay that much for a TV series. Unfortunately the psychological scarring from the way in which you have ruthlessly exposed my repressed and ill-mannered complaining will probably stay with me for life.
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Unfortunately the psychological scarring from the way in which you have ruthlessly exposed my repressed and ill-mannered complaining will probably stay with me for life.
Perhaps this will make the bitter pill somewhat less hard to swallow: ;D
An FYI before we announce and post any further episodes of Art Wolfe's Travels to the Edge.
We will be making each 13 episode season available as a package for $99.00
For those who have already purchased some shows: if you purchase 10 shows, you may ask our Customer Service for a coupon for the complete season's 13 episode package - thus allowing you the discounted price.
Please note that this applies only to each separate season and the package price does not apply to purchases of 10 shows across different seasons.
Chris
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The pricing makes sense for a per episode download - i.e. the costs reflects the ability to go a la carte and on demand. If you wanted the entire series and don't mind waiting a week for the UPS truck, just purchasing the DVDs from public television or the show site makes a lot more sense (public television is the less expensive option over the show site - by a material amount). I think anyone interested in the series as a package is aware of those options, so I don't think I'm stealing any of LL's thunder there. Again, what they've got here that's new and of value is the per episode option. I purchased the set from Oregon Public Broadcasting awhile back for not that much, although OPB is no longer carrying it. The public TV store called: channel 9 store (www.channel9store.com) has each season for about $49.00 per season set (4 discs in each season set).
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Perhaps this will make the bitter pill somewhat less hard to swallow: ;D
An FYI before we announce and post any further episodes of Art Wolfe's Travels to the Edge.
We will be making each 13 episode season available as a package for $99.00
For those who have already purchased some shows: if you purchase 10 shows, you may ask our Customer Service for a coupon for the complete season's 13 episode package - thus allowing you the discounted price.
Please note that this applies only to each separate season and the package price does not apply to purchases of 10 shows across different seasons.
Chris
Ooh, so if I think of photography as a religion, and LL as a church...
Then by purchasing the series (with it's super discount!) I receive an indulgence which will allow me, with the recitation of a ten DOF equations and five 'hail Leicas', to heal this terrible wound of the soul. It would seem silly to refuse such an offer. ;D
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The pricing makes sense for a per episode download - i.e. the costs reflects the ability to go a la carte. If you wanted the entire series, just purchasing the DVDs from public television or the show site makes a lot more sense (public television is the less expensive option over the show site - by a material amount). I think anyone interested in the series as a package is aware of those options, so I don't think I'm stealing any of LL's thunder there. Again, what they've got here that's new and of value is the per episode option. I purchased the set from Oregon Public Broadcasting awhile back for not that much, although OPB is no longer carrying it. The public TV store called: channel 9 store (www.channel9store.com) has each season for about $49.00 per season set (4 discs in each season set or $10 a disc).
You seem to be ignoring what's a major selling point: LL is offering it in 720p, while DVD is 480p (at best). Assuming the LL downloads have decent bitrates and modern codecs, quality improvement over DVD is huge. Given the quality of the sample on LL main page I trust this will be the case.
1080p would be even better. Or 1440p. Or 2k. Or 4k. The race will never end...
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You seem to be ignoring what's a major selling point:
Most people do now days. It's all about speed of convenience and now now me, me.
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You seem to be ignoring what's a major selling point: LL is offering it in 720p, while DVD is 480p (at best). Assuming the LL downloads have decent bitrates and modern codecs, quality improvement over DVD is huge. Given the quality of the sample on LL main page I trust this will be the case.
1080p would be even better. Or 1440p. Or 2k. Or 4k. The race will never end...
I just watched my first one using my AppleTV, and the HD quality was great. 720p is pretty good. I think the HD download video would definitely look better than the DVD's.
I really enjoyed the video. For someone such as myself who will never be able to travel to such magnificent locations, the quality of the video really enhances the experience. The production quality is great, and the mixture of Art's stills to the video is wonderful. I imagine eventually I'll own all of them.
I appreciate LuLa making them available.
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I already own all of them on DVD - And have enjoyed them immensely.
If I did not already own them I would purchase them as download - but hey.. thats me...
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As the dicussion takes place here, I wanted to bring in my arguments detailed elsewhere. 10$ for 24 minutes translate to approx 50-80$ for a comparable full length DVD education programm( like BBC documentories) which is in fact sold for around 20 bucks. On top: its only a download and not even a booklet is provided. Furthermore, the series is quite old and has been aired on Tv many times and is sponsored by microsoft and Canon. Therefore the low volume sales over LL cannot be an argument as production cost should have been paid by now. This leads me to infer that the sale is more or less a 90 % profit business, allowing for certain costs, such as for download conversion and maintance of the LL-site.
So despite the excellent quality of the programm, I find it very hard to justify the pricing.
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I think we have been here already. It is buyer's choice.
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... I find it very hard to justify the pricing.
Pricing (any pricing) does not need justification. It is an act of free will (at least in free-market societies). It is sellers' product, and they are free to do whatever they want with it: use it, benefit from it or even abuse it. (the usus, fructus, abusus principle, as old as Roman law). They are pricing it for maximum profit... selling fewer products at a higher price can still generate more profit than selling more products at a lower price (or not)... if they miscalculated it, they will ultimately revise the price... but at this point in the game, I trust they know their market better than you (and I) can.
However, you are perfectly entitled to justify the expense to yourself (or your wife).
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Personally I find the series very well done and enjoyable to watch. I assume Art and the group producing the series gets a decent share, so I don't mind at all paying a premium ... almost like a contribution to help T2E stay viable and continue. Like wise, for all of the free information Michael and LuLa has offered over the years, I would much prefer to support them by purchasing something such as this, as opposed to the more normal practice of "hey, please send money" or charging a subscription fee.
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Personally I find the series very well done and enjoyable to watch. I assume Art and the group producing the series gets a decent share, so I don't mind at all paying a premium ... almost like a contribution to help T2E stay viable and continue. Like wise, for all of the free information Michael and LuLa has offered over the years, I would much prefer to support them by purchasing something such as this, as opposed to the more normal practice of "hey, please send money" or charging a subscription fee.
Unfortunately, my understanding is PBS has pulled out of the series and is no longer funding it. We are unlikely to see more new episodes; which is a real shame as I did very much enjoy them.
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I just bought Seasons 1 and 2 from the LuLa download store for $200... then felt like a schmuck when I found both seasons on Art Wolfe's web site for $90 on DVD. I would have rather had the DVDs... and the $110.
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It has obviously taken me a while to even find this thread as I tend to visit different more specific threads, but I wanted to chime in for just a quick note. I just went back to the store and because the way the History is listed I am not sure but I think I paid the $99.00 for Travels To The Edge, both seasons. I can't tell you how many times I have watched all of them but I will say Art Wolfe is amazing, his production staff incredibly talented, and I know I never regretted a single cent that was paid for my copies. They remain a treat to watch. Thanks Michael, Chris, Art and all who made the decision to sell them through the Luminous Landscape.
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I would suggest to those reading the more recent posts to this thread go back and read from the beginning...
The reasons for the pricing stated earlier (much earlier :D ) still stand.
Chris