Luminous Landscape Forum

The Art of Photography => The Coffee Corner => Topic started by: BernardLanguillier on September 25, 2010, 10:00:52 pm

Title: Time, photography and how we use it
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 25, 2010, 10:00:52 pm
Following up on previous excursions away from the core aspects of luminous photography, here is another open question.

Most of us grow older everyday, only at a slow pace that makes the process hardly noticeable. Our children move faster and help us with the realization that time passes by, but we still mostly strive to forget about this depressing thought.

Yet we share an urge to achieve things. Get safe, write our name on the history tablets, build something,... and this urge drives our priorities in life in more of less subtle ways.

Most of us have decided to include photography as part of the story of our lifes. Some use photography as a way to earn money, others as a way to spend it. Yet we all devote time to photography, time we could be spending doing something else, time that should be more were other tasks less time consuming. The photographic time presents itself in different forms shaped by the activities pertaining to photography, but also influenced by our relationship to photography, how we perceive it and interact with the mental models we have created to materialize it as a part of who we are. We might see the world and our past as polaroids or key moments, think about a series expanding in time.

Some of us also spend time listening to music using more or less well performing audio systems. The unit of time of music listening has been changing recently. We used to listen to a LP or a CD and that would eat 45 minutes of our life. Highly enjoyable time or time living a parallel life together with some other task. The basic unit of time of music listening has changed recently. We can now stream music and listen to that one 3:45 min download from iTunes or loop forever randomly in our vast electronic library of tunes. The musical time has shrinked or been expanded depending on how you look at it.

My question to you. How do you feel photography relates to time and has this been changing?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Time, photography and how we use it
Post by: Joe Behar on September 25, 2010, 11:03:48 pm
Bernard,

First off, there's nothing depressing about growing older. As a matter of fact, I'm finding it refreshing and liberating.

About your question;

For me photography acts as a time machine. I look at my photos and they remind me of events, people and places. At the same time they make me wonder what those people, places or even events will be like in the future. The interesting thing is that I didn't always think this way, so yes, the way I relate photography and time is changing.

Its only natural I suppose. I know I've changed and I can see that my photography has changed ( I won't comment on if its improved :) )

I guess, for me, photography relates to time in the sense that as time has progressed, my photography has changed. I have no concerns that I'll run out of time, or run out of pictures.
Title: Re: Time, photography and how we use it
Post by: Lost on September 26, 2010, 02:35:39 am
Regards to aging: no thanks. I could do without the aching back etc. I would not want to live forever (imagine what that would do to you if you are prone to procrastination!), but I really really would like to live my years gaining wisdom and experience but without all of the bio-mechanical failures that accumulate. We didn't really evolve to live to ~100 years...

Regards to photography: of course it is inextricably linked to time. The evolution of the photographer with experience (and bad back). The changing light from moment to moment and season to season (and global warming patter to global warming pattern). The changing equipment, from luggable silver halide prints to MF digital backs. The changing lenses, from pinhole to electron microscope, radio interferometers to Hubble.

Even within a photograph, time is not constant. That sunset photograph shows the near frame as it is "now", but the sun as it was six minutes ago. Everytime you point you camera towards a clear night sky you are capturing images of light that may be thousands, millions or even billions of years old (though you may need a *big* lens :-)

In fact, I wonder if anyone can think of any aspect of photography that is not inextricably linked to time?
Title: Re: Time, photography and how we use it
Post by: Rob C on September 26, 2010, 06:09:45 am
Fred, are you sure we are not related? Jurançon, Scottish ladies, breasts we admire (on persons of the female gender), and minimalist photography? For your sake, I hope not, but it couldn't be all bad if we are!

For me, I think the changes over the past ten years or so have been quite radical. There seems to have been an enormouse hike in the price one pays for ever more doubtful equipment quality, though this may well be a personal impression only, since there is no longer a business against which to write off such costs, but I don't think this is the only factor - I think the rise is real for everyone.

Before I turned pro I used to know people who belonged (almost literally) to camera clubs who, when I would mention that I'd fancy a 500C would roll their eyes and say that's ridiculous, nobody needs one! Today, the equivalent money and more is spent by the amateur who seems to be even more equipment-obsessed than the pro ever is, even though the latter can write off costs. I seem to pick up the vibe that the pro today puts up with constant innovation whilst the amateur welcomes it. Strange.

I also get the impression that times in photography are changing not only regarding equipment, but also standards of image or image expectation. Was a time when quality was pretty clear-cut: it was obviously there, or it was obvious by its absence. Today, the infusion of so-called art into the medium has blurred the boundaries to the point where any old crap goes; it only needs the producer to say it's art, self-expression or a zillion other cop-out words. Worse, the larger the physical size of these photo phonies the greater the kudos and the perceived value, as a look at some renown gallery sites illustrates.

In short, I think the time has come when the medium has gone totally democratic and is now enjoying the problems that any such state brings in its wake.

Rob C

Title: Re: Time, photography and how we use it
Post by: Rocco Penny on September 26, 2010, 10:02:19 am
Time

I'm not sure that photography does anything in regards to the time I spend except to drive me to more precise observation.

So like a swordsman will just be good at handling a sword after 30 years, I'd expect to see progress in precision.

Time passes just like time will pass no matter the way you spend it.

Synchronicity is the key.  Being able to ride the wave of common energy in real time.

Being engaged in something greater than watching time pass, and being able to live with some passion for the choices I make is the beginning for me.

Photography just lets me author some moments as art.
Title: Re: Time, photography and how we use it
Post by: michswiss on September 26, 2010, 11:00:23 am
Given outside observances that I'm 17 in one context but approaching 50 in another gives time an odd meaning for me.  Photography is connecting me back to a period before significant dissonance and now.  Thinking and talking about it is a time waster for sure.  Doing it is a gift for others.  It captures a moment that looses subjectivity the further you move from it.  But hopefully a good shot retains a truth in moment for others to appreciate.

Title: Re: Time, photography and how we use it
Post by: Rob C on September 26, 2010, 12:08:06 pm
“Given outside observances that I'm 17 in one context but approaching 50 in another gives time an odd meaning for me.  Photography is connecting me back to a period before significant dissonance and now.  Thinking and talking about it is a time waster for sure.  Doing it is a gift for others.  It captures a moment that looses subjectivity the further you move from it.  But hopefully a good shot retains a truth in moment for others to appreciate.”



Hi Jenn

Welcome to Jerry Lee Lewis Land.

As in his song, Thirty-nine and Holding, which you can see in various versions on Youtube, even placing one’s own age becomes problematic pretty soon after you leave school. My mother made it to her 90s and once said that she really thought she was much, much younger – somewhere in her twenties, I think she said (as I age, my memory become less sure of fine details like that) – and I know that, as far as my own stage in life goes, I feel I never outgrew my twenties either. But I’m well past that in the language of the clock; I also feel it physically more often than not, but seldom inside where I live and think.

But does the passing of time really alter objectivity or subjectivity? I’m not sure. I do recognize the truth in the idea that editing too soon after a shoot can be a mistake for emotional reasons tied up with the interface between you, model and client; locations can also colour your vision, where the enthusiasm that you experience from a new, beautiful location can totally overwhelm the reality of what you actually caught in the camera.

I don’t share your experience of retro-connection to an earlier stage in my own life, even though I have spent a lot of time setting up my website by trawling through material that represented what was left of my career; rather than reconnecting me, it showed me how far I have moved, not in ability or tastes, but from the business reality of what was my norm. Frankly, I have spent too much time agonising over the loss of that genre of work, but I am increasingly finding that it is starting to lose its dominance in my mind – thank goodness – and that I think, now, that I am absolutely ready for new directions. This, not least of all because of several pointed posts from people showing genuine interest in pushing me along to a new life.

However, unlike you, who I think is a self-starter of projects, I feel perfectly able to start them but doubt my ability to complete them unless I have an outside responsibility that does not permit boredom or depression to say oh, the hell with it; let’s just go home, Rob. Believe me, I’ve spent a lot of gasoline doing exactly that, not even stopping the car to make sure that a Pulitzer wasn’t hiding behind a wall.

Again, at the risk of boring everybody rigid, it does fit in just too damn neatly with Terence Donovan’s statement about the difficulty of the amateur to find a reason to take a photograph. I am, now, that amateur, and it is damned hard to maintain motivation. Once you know perfectly well that you can make a good shot out of absolutely anything, something other than proving it to yourself over and over again is required. That’s where the absence of the client element can be so damaging.

The latter part of your post worries me.

I don’t know how pro or otherwise you were or are – I do know you shoot extremely well – and whilst I share absolutely your concept about doing shots for others to enjoy if it’s your living, now that I am in amateur shoes I feel nothing remotely like that: I feel the freedom to shoot only for self, to indulge in that divine world of solipsism that was oh so difficult to manage when working. Dame Fortune did grant me the joy of a lot of freedom from art directors – often, it worked the other way around: I did the shots first and from the proofs the AD created the ads. True, and great for us both. And in my opinion, the best way of getting value from the shooter you have hired. But it wasn’t always that sweet – in fact, I suppose I lost my second-best client because of internal stresses brought on by interference. Sad fact: because somebody holds a title within a company does NOT mean that he should hold it; some peoples’ depths are very shallow indeed. But they don’t pay; at least, not immediately… this particular mother did, about a year later. Schadenfreude? Bet your bippy!

But today, if time (our topic!) permits, I have the ideas but lack the external need to see it all through. Catch Twenty-two; I think Joseph would have been proud to know this of me.

Rob C
Title: Re: Time, photography and how we use it
Post by: Lost on September 26, 2010, 01:21:58 pm
Before I turned pro I used to know people who belonged (almost literally) to camera clubs who, when I would mention that I'd fancy a 500C would roll their eyes and say that's ridiculous, nobody needs one! Today, the equivalent money and more is spent by the amateur who seems to be even more equipment-obsessed than the pro ever is, even though the latter can write off costs. I seem to pick up the vibe that the pro today puts up with constant innovation whilst the amateur welcomes it. Strange.

As an amateur, I think that part of the fun is the equipment and playing with new toys - witness the vast numbers of equipment discussion boards vs those that discuss actual photography. However, on a paying job I would think that the last thing that you want is any distractions from the photography itself.


In short, I think the time has come when the medium has gone totally democratic and is now enjoying the problems that any such state brings in its wake.

Maybe. Perversely, I don't think that most cameras are sold for "photography" as a profession or art. Look at all the people buying Leicas - either taking snapshots of their kids/pets, or simply buying a status symbol.  I wonder how many people really learn to think about the pictures that they are taking?

Online there are now vast numbers of images, but how many that you can download for free are good enough to hang on your wall? And how many of the photographers would you trust to take your wedding or event pictures?

[On a side note, the whole 'status' thing is very frustrating - even Canon manage to milk this by using the 'red ring' on L-series Lenses to shout to anyone looking and in the know that you have spent a fortune on glass, thereby making a market not just for good lenses, but also visibly expensive ones too. I suspect that this is one reason why good equipment seems more expensive now.]

Title: Re: Time, photography and how we use it
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 26, 2010, 01:43:35 pm
... Some use photography as a way to earn money, others as a way to spend it....

This is the most beautifully put and succinct distinction between a pro and an amateur I've seen!
Title: Re: Time, photography and how we use it
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 26, 2010, 01:49:00 pm
... Today, the equivalent money and more is spent by the amateur who seems to be even more equipment-obsessed than the pro ever is...

I've recently come across an ad that for the first time directly and unapologetically targets that obsession:

Title: Re: Time, photography and how we use it
Post by: RSL on September 26, 2010, 02:12:53 pm
Most of us grow older everyday...

Speak for yourself, Bernard.

I also get the impression that times in photography are changing not only regarding equipment, but also standards of image or image expectation. Was a time when quality was pretty clear-cut: it was obviously there, or it was obvious by its absence. Today, the infusion of so-called art into the medium has blurred the boundaries to the point where any old crap goes; it only needs the producer to say it's art, self-expression or a zillion other cop-out words. Worse, the larger the physical size of these photo phonies the greater the kudos and the perceived value, as a look at some renown gallery sites illustrates.

In short, I think the time has come when the medium has gone totally democratic and is now enjoying the problems that any such state brings in its wake.

Rob, I share your concern. Though I don't think equipment has much to do with it, image standards certainly are changing. I think I talked a bit about this on another thread, but what I see happening in photography seems to correlate pretty closely with what I saw happen to poetry. Until about fifteen years ago I wrote poetry regularly and had my first poem published in a "little magazine" when I was nineteen. I had intended to become a professor of English literature, before the Korean war and the draft reduced my choices to either flying or walking in an Asian land war. In any case I subscribed to Poetry magazine for decades. And for decades I watched poetry descend from a shining thing that could grip the imagination of almost anyone able to breathe, into a cult thing grasped (weakly) only by the anointed few. I finally let my subscription lapse.

In other words, I don't think photographic democracy is the problem. Photographic democracy has been with us from the beginning and has produced an almost infinite number of family albums. To me the problem is cultism, which I see developing every time I thumb through the latest edition of any fine art photography magazine: B&W, Color, LensWork, etc. There always seem to be a few really good photographs in those magazines, but I see more and more of the soft-focus abstractions the fine art world pushes as its ideal. Color magazine seems to feel that color in the abstract is far more important than images recognizable to humans.

Which brings me to the relationship of time to photography: One thing all good poems have in common is effective imagery, and effective imagery always grabs a piece of time. I could expound on this point, but instead I'd refer anyone interested to Archibald MacLeish's book Poetry and Experience. One of the illustrations in the book is this old English song:

O westron wind when wilt thou blow
That the small rain down can rain?
Christ that my love were in my arms
And I in my bed again.

If English is your first language and you don't get a jolt from this poem you probably should start looking for a cemetery plot. The imagery comes through loud and clear. I'm here, waiting for a western wind so the rain can start and I can finish my work and go home... to a girl I wish were in my arms and next to me in my bed. But, as MacLeish points out, this poem isn't about love, or sex, or the weather. It's about the way these images cross each other in time, or, as he puts it: "How can you 'describe' in words the poignancy of the recognition of the obstacle of time -- its recognition not on the clock face or among the stars but on the nerves of the body and in the blood itself?"

Good photography, like good poetry, always contains recognizable images -- images that the viewer can grasp and to which he can relate; images that incorporate time. And I'm afraid "fine art" photography is moving away from that rule, just as poetry did, until, perhaps, the kind of photography of interest to LuLa members will become a cult exercise, understandable only to the anointed few.
Title: Re: Time, photography and how we use it
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on September 26, 2010, 02:17:32 pm
Sorry, folks. I don't have time to write a meaningful reply to this thread. I need to spend the time doing photography.

Eric
Title: Re: Time, photography and how we use it
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 26, 2010, 02:34:02 pm
... Good photography, like good poetry, always contains recognizable images -- images that the viewer can grasp and to which he can relate; images that incorporate time. And I'm afraid "fine art" photography is moving away from that rule...

I think there is a world of difference between photographers trying to create fine art, and artists that just happen to choose photography as a medium. Most members of this forum are most likely the former, while "photography" as awarded in say, the Turner Prize, would be the latter. B&W annual contest issues are probably split into something close to 30/70.
Title: Re: Time, photography and how we use it
Post by: Rob C on September 26, 2010, 03:19:12 pm
Not sure how to read that, Slobodan; it was the Special Issues that stopped my regular buying: some truly great shots and masses of filling. Not worth the inflated price, and made me doubt their stance.

I think it started honest but that economics and reality overtook the idealism, or perhaps the idea of it being meant for 'collectors' was ever a front, and it was photographers that were the real target market all along, photographers dreaming of finding the racing line to galleries and collectors.

Rob C
Title: Re: Time, photography and how we use it
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 26, 2010, 03:31:13 pm
Not sure how to read that, Slobodan; it was the Special Issues that stopped my regular buying: some truly great shots [30%] and masses of filling [70%] ....

That is close to what I meant by 30/70. We can debate the exact split, of course, and mine is just a wild guess, nothing scientific about it... it might as well be 10/90.

I also meant to say that the 70 part is not necessarily a "filling" or bad photography (based on the type of photography members of this forum appear to practice or like)... it just might be the type of art that just happen to use photography as a medium... the type of art (or "art") that is not our cup of tea. It might as well be a pure, unadulterated crap.
Title: Re: Time, photography and how we use it
Post by: Rob C on September 26, 2010, 03:37:02 pm
“O westron wind when wilt thou blow
That the small rain down can rain?
Christ that my love were in my arms
And I in my bed again.

If English is your first language and you don't get a jolt from this poem you probably should start looking for a cemetery plot. The imagery comes through loud and clear. I'm here, waiting for a western wind so the rain can start and I can finish my work and go home... to a girl I wish were in my arms and next to me in my bed. But, as MacLeish points out, this poem isn't about love, or sex, or the weather. It's about the way these images cross each other in time, or, as he puts it: "How can you 'describe' in words the poignancy of the recognition of the obstacle of time -- its recognition not on the clock face or among the stars but on the nerves of the body and in the blood itself?"


Russ

Yes, a classic indeed and readable to all with a soul.

But photography has other problems: it’s too literally what you see, unlike the written alternative which allows, no, forces personal interpretation, even of simple posts in LuLa!

Poetry was always a bit too esoteric for me – I found more gut reaction in blues. But then, lyrics are just a form of poetry with music. In fact, I’d go as far as to say that even the much maligned country’n’western stuff very often has the odd couplet that can damn near bring tears of recognition to my eyes. No, it can do it. Have but to hear the right voice doing the last few lines of Long Black Limousine for the emotion to rip right across me. Roughly:

All my hopes and all my dreams
They ride with you
In that long black limousine

Shit. I do this to myself?

Rob C
Title: Re: Time, photography and how we use it
Post by: RSL on September 26, 2010, 05:30:55 pm
But photography has other problems: it’s too literally what you see, unlike the written alternative which allows, no, forces personal interpretation, even of simple posts in LuLa!

Rob, I agree that most of the photography I see on LuLa -- especially lately in User Critiques -- tends to be literal to the point of blahness. But there's another kind of photography that uses images to produce the kind of transcendental experience one gets from "O westron wind." One photograph that does that -- I think -- is Cartier-Bresson's "Cardinal Pacelli in Montmarte" http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/LargeImage.aspx?image=/lotfinderimages/d50568/d5056800x.jpg. Another is his "Lock at Bougival" http://www.flickr.com/photos/manuelitro/3811253077/. I also think Steve McCurry's Afghan girl with the green eyes falls into that category. It takes an awful lot of time on the street or wherever you're shooting to get something like that, but attempting it is what it's all about as far as I'm concerned.

Quote
Poetry was always a bit too esoteric for me – I found more gut reaction in blues.

Well, I can't find too much esoteric about "O westron wind," but I agree it was kabbalism that killed poetry. I also agree that music is the ultimate path to transcendental experience, though I prefer Chopin, Mendelssohn, and several of Puccini's arias to the blues.
Title: Re: Time, photography and how we use it
Post by: feppe on September 26, 2010, 06:12:58 pm
Rob, I agree that most of the photography I see on LuLa -- especially lately in User Critiques -- tends to be literal to the point of blahness. But there's another kind of photography that uses images to produce the kind of transcendental experience one gets from "O westron wind." One photograph that does that -- I think -- is Cartier-Bresson's "Cardinal Pacelli in Montmarte" http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/LargeImage.aspx?image=/lotfinderimages/d50568/d5056800x.jpg. Another is his "Lock at Bougival" http://www.flickr.com/photos/manuelitro/3811253077/. I also think Steve McCurry's Afghan girl with the green eyes falls into that category. It takes an awful lot of time on the street or wherever you're shooting to get something like that, but attempting it is what it's all about as far as I'm concerned.

You do realize you're comparing LL critique corner to some of the most celebrated photographers of all time?
Title: Re: Time, photography and how we use it
Post by: RSL on September 26, 2010, 06:48:54 pm
Absolutely, Harri. Are you suggesting that that kind of photograph isn't worth trying for?
Title: Re: Time, photography and how we use it
Post by: feppe on September 26, 2010, 06:56:59 pm
Absolutely, Harri. Are you suggesting that that kind of photograph isn't worth trying for?

Absolutely not. What I'm saying is that holding photos in the critique corner to the same standards is like setting the high jump bar at 2.40 meters in a regional competition (there are only 7 men in the world who've jumped that high).
Title: Re: Time, photography and how we use it
Post by: Peter McLennan on September 26, 2010, 08:53:40 pm
Most of us grow older everyday, only at a slow pace that makes the process hardly noticeable.

My question to you. How do you feel photography relates to time and has this been changing?

A good question, Bernard.

Yesterday, tramping a kilometer or so to a favourite spot, bearing two D300s, the largest-available Gitzo and a backpack, I was reflecting on the weight of the tripod on my right shoulder.  

"This ain't as easy as it used to be.", I said to myself.  "If you want to photograph places you haven't been to yet, you'd better get busy."

At 64, I really appreciate the fact that time is my most valuable photographic resource.
Title: Re: Time, photography and how we use it
Post by: RSL on September 26, 2010, 09:18:47 pm
Absolutely not. What I'm saying is that holding photos in the critique corner to the same standards is like setting the high jump bar at 2.40 meters in a regional competition (there are only 7 men in the world who've jumped that high).

But is that a reason to lower our objectives? Why should anyone set his objective at 2 meters when the real objective is 2.4 meters? I think we all adjust our critiques to lower levels as we go along, but that shouldn't change the real objective. This is exactly why Rob and I both keep telling everyone who wants to do good photographic work to study the work of the masters.
Title: Re: Time, photography and how we use it
Post by: feppe on September 26, 2010, 09:42:51 pm
But is that a reason to lower our objectives? Why should anyone set his objective at 2 meters when the real objective is 2.4 meters? I think we all adjust our critiques to lower levels as we go along, but that shouldn't change the real objective. This is exactly why Rob and I both keep telling everyone who wants to do good photographic work to study the work of the masters.

I'm in full agreement there. Nevertheless, not even a prodigy like GSP  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_St-Pierre)trains at 100% intensity 100% of the time.

Fortunately I'm sure quality of our photographic output is not limited by genes, unlike how it is in sports
Title: Re: Time, photography and how we use it
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on September 26, 2010, 11:20:06 pm
Fortunately I'm sure quality of our photographic output is not limited by genes, unlike how it is in sports
Hmmm. I wonder if you can get steroids to aid the photographic muse!

Eric
Title: Re: Time, photography and how we use it
Post by: Lost on September 27, 2010, 02:46:04 am
Absolutely not. What I'm saying is that holding photos in the critique corner to the same standards is like setting the high jump bar at 2.40 meters in a regional competition (there are only 7 men in the world who've jumped that high).

You make it sound like the critique corner is only a place to pass judgement!

I had hoped that it might be somewhere that it might be somewhere where people would make constructive comparisons and suggestions for things to try to improve.  As such, set the bar as high as possible and explain what, in your opinion, would help improve the image.

The value of LL is the experience of its readers. If I want popularity, all I need to do is post random photos to Flickr with their saturation/sharpness/MSG cranked up to 200%, posting the result to one of the many mutual back-scratching groups. If I want to take better photographs, then I need the considered help of those that have spent much more time in photography and who have a lot more experience as a result...
Title: Re: Time, photography and how we use it
Post by: Rob C on September 27, 2010, 05:30:52 am
You do realize you're comparing LL critique corner to some of the most celebrated photographers of all time?

But that's the thing about exposure: you have to have faith, self-belief or just boldness. If you don't, why submit yourself to the Internet where the very best is available for almost direct comparison could anyone be bothered enough to make it?

Of course, this opens the gates to definition once more...

But going back to the immediate confines of LuLa - I think that what is seen is very often good technical ability with nothing more in the pics than that. And I think it's not really a matter of the shooters being good or bad, more that there is so little outwith the clichés that can be said in pictures. It's just too late in photo history to be doing anything new. Almost everything you can imagine already fits within some genre and, thus, the embrace of cliché.

It's just too, too late for us all to be pioneers.

Rob C
Title: Re: Time, photography and how we use it
Post by: stamper on September 27, 2010, 07:14:57 am
You make it sound like the critique corner is only a place to pass judgement!

I had hoped that it might be somewhere that it might be somewhere where people would make constructive comparisons and suggestions for things to try to improve.  As such, set the bar as high as possible and explain what, in your opinion, would help improve the image.

The value of LL is the experience of its readers. If I want popularity, all I need to do is post random photos to Flickr with their saturation/sharpness/MSG cranked up to 200%, posting the result to one of the many mutual back-scratching groups. If I want to take better photographs, then I need the considered help of those that have spent much more time in photography and who have a lot more experience as a result...

I think that there are a lot of good photographers who visit Flickr. I wouldn't condemn them all? Just look about the signatures to see how many on here have Flickr accounts. Feel free to ignore my signature as this isn't a plug. ;)
Title: Re: Time, photography and how we use it
Post by: stamper on September 27, 2010, 07:17:50 am
But that's the thing about exposure: you have to have faith, self-belief or just boldness. If you don't, why submit yourself to the Internet where the very best is available for almost direct comparison could anyone be bothered enough to make it?

Of course, this opens the gates to definition once more...

But going back to the immediate confines of LuLa - I think that what is seen is very often good technical ability with nothing more in the pics than that. And I think it's not really a matter of the shooters being good or bad, more that there is so little outwith the clichés that can be said in pictures. It's just too late in photo history to be doing anything new. Almost everything you can imagine already fits within some genre and, thus, the embrace of cliché.

It's just too, too late for us all to be pioneers.

Rob C

IMO the difference between a good photographer and a very good one is imagination? This is where many - including myself - struggle. :(
Title: Re: Time, photography and how we use it
Post by: stamper on September 27, 2010, 07:33:03 am
Quote
The value of LL is the experience of its readers. If I want popularity, all I need to do is post random photos to Flickr with their saturation/sharpness/MSG cranked up to 200%, posting the result to one of the many mutual back-scratching groups.

Unquote

Regarding the back scratching I have just discovered on Flickr it is possible to delete comments that have been made about your images. I don't know how long this has been possible. The other day I commented on a good image I saw and stated that if the horizon had been straight then it would have been a very good image. Later I noticed the comment was no longer there but the squinty horizon still was! At first I thought I had hit preview by mistake. The back scratching comment has more merit to it than I first thought.  :-\
Title: Re: Time, photography and how we use it
Post by: Lost on September 27, 2010, 08:49:02 am
I think that there are a lot of good photographers who visit Flickr. I wouldn't condemn them all? Just look about the signatures to see how many on here have Flickr accounts. Feel free to ignore my signature as this isn't a plug. ;)

Sorry - I didn't mean that to be a condemnation of Flickr users in general!  I was trying to make the point that there are other better avenues for self-promotion than posting something here...

I have a joint Flickr account (m4barcelona) that we use regularly, mainly for friends and family overseas to see what we have been doing. I might be a bit touchy about this because we have had several recent Flickr mails asking to join groups that have a policy of 'post three favorites for each one you receive'!
Title: Re: Time, photography and how we use it
Post by: feppe on September 27, 2010, 12:10:48 pm
You make it sound like the critique corner is only a place to pass judgement!

I had hoped that it might be somewhere that it might be somewhere where people would make constructive comparisons and suggestions for things to try to improve.  As such, set the bar as high as possible and explain what, in your opinion, would help improve the image.

This is veering even farther away from the OP, but what the hell.

Unfortunately that's what 90% of the "critique" corner is. I find almost zero value in critiquing a photo which the critic feels "should" have been taken, instead of the photo that was taken (and presented). Saying you should have taken two steps back might have not been an option due to a busy road. Coming back at a later time for better light might have not been an option due to a flight leaving. "Doesn't follow rule of thirds" and I'm banging my head on the keyboard - although in fairness haven't seen that one on LL.

9% is along the lines of "nice shot, thanks for sharing," which are nice for validation if they come from people you respect, but still have zero value unless that's what you're after. The remaining 1% is actionable, helpful and valid critique and advice.

I keep wondering if portfolio critique events are any better.

Last time I posted on critique corner I did receive useful advice and made changes to the photo I posted, so maybe I'm being a bit too harsh.

The value of LL is the experience of its readers. If I want popularity, all I need to do is post random photos to Flickr with their saturation/sharpness/MSG cranked up to 200%, posting the result to one of the many mutual back-scratching groups. If I want to take better photographs, then I need the considered help of those that have spent much more time in photography and who have a lot more experience as a result...

No reason singling out Flickr: there are several threads on LL which are filled with feel-good feedback loops and unrestrained sycophantism. Flickr-whores' cranked up saturation and clarity, and abuse of HDR become LL's impressive clients, important degrees, and cameras costing more than a good new car.

Again, in fairness, things are generally much worse outside of LL.

Yes, it's certainly a Monday :P
Title: Re: Time, photography and how we use it
Post by: RSL on September 27, 2010, 01:00:53 pm
I'm in full agreement there. Nevertheless, not even a prodigy like GSP  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_St-Pierre)trains at 100% intensity 100% of the time.

But photography isn't a sport. To train at less than 100% intensity any time you're out with a camera is a big mistake.
Title: Re: Time, photography and how we use it
Post by: Riaan van Wyk on September 27, 2010, 01:30:34 pm

My question to you. How do you feel photography relates to time and has this been changing?

Cheers,
Bernard


People put different values on time, I have found Bernard. Regardless of it being behind a camera or not. I do feel that my time spent with a camera is extremely important to me though.
Title: Re: Time, photography and how we use it
Post by: feppe on September 27, 2010, 01:32:43 pm
But photography isn't a sport. To train at less than 100% intensity any time you're out with a camera is a big mistake.

I know you're a very black-and-white guy, but that's taking it to the extreme.

They're called snapshots, or just having fun with a camera.
Title: Re: Time, photography and how we use it
Post by: RSL on September 27, 2010, 01:33:41 pm
But Rob, even if we where (re)producing clichés;
when I watch, let's say, Winograd or any master that size, it feels so fresh, powerfull and great that déjà vu does not matters, it is simply excellent.

Fred, Run through Robert Frank's The Americans, and then get out Garry Winogrand's Figments from the Real World and run through that. See any similarities? Garry was doing almost the same kind of thing Robert was doing, but he had a slightly different approach. The result is fresh, even though there are similarities all over the place. Actually, if you go back and look at some of Walker Evans's street shots you realize that even Robert Frank was a latecomer to that particular approach, but the way Robert handled it was just enough different from the way Walker handled it to make Robert's photographs clearly Robert's.

As you can see, I just don't agree with Rob's insistence that everything has been done and therefore anything new will be a cliche. In a sense, since Cartier-Bresson no one has done anything on the street that's not derivative. But if you go back a bit further you realize that even Henri's stuff could be considered derivative of Andre Kertesz, yet, if you look at their photographs the differences jump out at you.

Quote
But somewhere, Russ pointed that if you do one exceptional keeper/year you are lucky, that is what happens most of the time, but these guys where/are able to produce many of those/ month...where is the secret?

You can learn the secret by counting the pictures in The Americans and Figments from the Real World, and then read the texts that tell you how many frames these guys actually shot to put together these books. When Garry Winogrand died he left behind something like 300,000 developed but unedited frames and 2,500 undeveloped rolls of exposed film. I don't think Robert was quite so wasteful, but he shot a hell of a lot of frames to put together The Americans. You can't get this information from The Americans itself, but you can get it from Looking In, the catalogue for his latest show

I stand by my estimate of one exceptional keeper per year, at least for myself, but I'm not doing the kind of intensive shooting these two guys were doing. I'd be willing to bet that if you were to compare exceptional keepers to frames shot, I'm not far off from either of them. Why do I say this? Becuase I have an exceptionally high regard for my skills? Absolutely not. I say it because street photography is like fishing. You can have all the gear and all the skills, but you still have to be lucky enough to be there when the exceptional keeper (the fish) exposes itself to you.
Title: Re: Time, photography and how we use it
Post by: RSL on September 27, 2010, 01:48:01 pm
I know you're a very black-and-white guy, but that's taking it to the extreme.

They're called snapshots, or just having fun with a camera.

Harri, It depends on what you're setting out to do. Yes, we see an awful lot of "fun with a camera" snapshots on User Critiques. I make vacation snapshots too. I call them "record shots." But I don't post them anywhere for someone to critique. They stay in my comb-bound books. Maybe that's "extreme," but that's just my "black and white" nature. I have something like 24,000 photographs in my current Lightroom catalog but my primary web site has roughly 200 broken down into 6 categories. The total on the web isn't going to grow much because when I add I also subtract.

I tend to believe that the folks who post on LuLa are trying to get beyond "just having fun with a camera." Maybe that's too "black and white" a belief.
Title: Re: Time, photography and how we use it
Post by: feppe on September 27, 2010, 02:23:33 pm
Harri, It depends on what you're setting out to do. Yes, we see an awful lot of "fun with a camera" snapshots on User Critiques. I make vacation snapshots too. I call them "record shots." But I don't post them anywhere for someone to critique. They stay in my comb-bound books. Maybe that's "extreme," but that's just my "black and white" nature. I have something like 24,000 photographs in my current Lightroom catalog but my primary web site has roughly 200 broken down into 6 categories. The total on the web isn't going to grow much because when I add I also subtract.

I tend to believe that the folks who post on LuLa are trying to get beyond "just having fun with a camera." Maybe that's too "black and white" a belief.

You did say "To train at less than 100% intensity any time you're out with a camera is a big mistake." Anyway, this is a pointless distraction so I'll stop.
Title: Re: Time, photography and how we use it
Post by: RSL on September 27, 2010, 03:14:53 pm
You did say "To train at less than 100% intensity any time you're out with a camera is a big mistake."

That's what I said. And when I make record shots I try to make good record shots.
Title: Re: Time, photography and how we use it
Post by: NikoJorj on September 27, 2010, 03:24:50 pm
Almost everything you can imagine already fits within some genre and, thus, the embrace of cliché.
As long as it's only "almost" there's something more to discover, so I wouldn't worry too much about that, and anyway it's the geniuses' job to discover it, not mine, so I can continue to simply try to grasp a few personal things in time.

Reading Le Temps retrouvé these days, I'm biased to think that this "grasp in time" concept can be said for many forms of art, that try to extract fleeing things from the flow of the time and make them more permanent.
That applies to many levels of creation, from my own clichés, simply trying to grasp the awe I feel in front of the mountains, to the HCB masterpieces above that really show a slice of humanity.
Title: Re: Time, photography and how we use it
Post by: NikoJorj on September 27, 2010, 03:36:13 pm
Photographers like Winograd where actually having an artistic goal but what all those "new clubs" like Flickr are doing is that the first motivation is somewhere else.  

I'd think that an artist creates for herself more than for any other one's consumption ; and that's the fulfilling of this egoistic need, that makes it of interest to others.

That doesn't rule out any critique at all ; for me, the interest of a critique section is not in the facebookian like/don't like commentaries, but more in that people can share why they like or don't like the thing, and what does or does not resonate with their own egoistic need - the premise being that all those selfish needs may be close enough between individuals to share some elements.
Title: Re: Time, photography and how we use it
Post by: Lost on September 27, 2010, 04:16:52 pm
It's just too late in photo history to be doing anything new. Almost everything you can imagine already fits within some genre and, thus, the embrace of cliché.

I tend to believe that the folks who post on LuLa are trying to get beyond "just having fun with a camera." Maybe that's too "black and white" a belief.

What nonsense!  :P

Why shouldn't photography should be fun and inventive?  Having "fun with a camera" is surely the best way to get some inspiration and try something new?  In my time, I have photographed with everything from a pin-hole camera to a 200km radio array.  We routinely use our Flickr stream for games and word-play, with pictures ranging from Hello Kitty to images of silica banana cell casts - taken with an electron microscope sharp enough to make you despair at ever using your Leica ever again :)

Is this high-art photography? Of course not, but it is a lot of fun and helps give some inspiration for when you really are trying to take a "proper" photograph. I can not believe that there is really nothing new to do.


I'd think that an artist creates for herself more than for any other one's consumption ; and that's the fulfilling of this egoistic need, that makes it of interest to others.

Spot on. However, I find any outside input potentially useful for new ideas or breaking out of a rut. You may or may not agree with the critic, but if they can make you think about something differently then perhaps the criticism has value as a source of new ideas (and quite often in a very different context).
Title: Re: Time, photography and how we use it
Post by: RSL on September 27, 2010, 06:06:56 pm
What nonsense!  :P

Why shouldn't photography should be fun and inventive?  Having "fun with a camera" is surely the best way to get some inspiration and try something new?

What you "lost" when you read that entry is the fact that going beyond "having fun with a camera" doesn't exclude the fun factor. Trying for excellence and succeeding is about as much fun as I can think of. Not trying for excellence and succeeding is about as boring and unfun a pastime as I can think of.
Title: Re: Time, photography and how we use it
Post by: Rocco Penny on September 27, 2010, 11:18:12 pm
"Trying for excellence and succeeding is about as much fun as I can think of. Not  trying for excellence and succeeding is about as boring and unfun a pastime as I can think of."

yep
Title: Re: Time, photography and how we use it
Post by: michswiss on September 27, 2010, 11:42:47 pm
What you "lost" when you read that entry is the fact that going beyond "having fun with a camera" doesn't exclude the fun factor. Trying for excellence and succeeding is about as much fun as I can think of. Not trying for excellence and succeeding is about as boring and unfun a pastime as I can think of.

Understanding what other's have seen as excellence and then bringing your own interpretation or vision to it is the hard part.  Even in street photography, I think there's a responsibility to tell a story.  There are no new stories or images, but done well, each is unique and worthwhile. 
Title: Re: Time, photography and how we use it
Post by: Lost on September 28, 2010, 02:05:46 am
What you "lost" when you read that entry is the fact that going beyond "having fun with a camera" doesn't exclude the fun factor.

Of course, but sometimes I think these things need to be said explicitly.


Trying for excellence and succeeding is about as much fun as I can think of. Not trying for excellence and succeeding is about as boring and unfun a pastime as I can think of.

Absolutely!

Now off to find some *real* coffee and see anything around can inspire some photographs about time...
Title: Re: Time, photography and how we use it
Post by: Rob C on September 28, 2010, 05:09:14 am
"It is like intensive agriculture: we produce more for cheap but this has a cost: bad taste or no taste at all. Can not find, and this is not a joke, a proper tomato in Madrid now. They look beautifull but they have no taste at all."

And it's as bad here, in Mallorca. We used to buy everything from the Sunday market in Pollensa, then after I was alone I had neither the heart nor the need anymore because I'm a terrible cook. I bought some tomatoes last week, they looked beautiful, so three came home with me to make a snack in the evenings. Almost immediately I had to throw one out - they had been frozen, yet the owners of the shop have a finca where they grow their own... the same with out-of-season fruit: it comes from South America and is either too ripe or too much the other way.

And I think photography, related to time, is much the same too.

In the case of amateur photojournalism, which is where some on this thread major, however much they may feel differently they do eventually admit to working a worn groove. As to whether or not they are in the right place at the right time or not, that is, for them, usually out of their hands; but, for the pro pj it is not: he has to be there where the riot, the political protest, the march takes place. And that's why his batting average is so much higher: he is in the right place at the right time. And to complicate the problem, he has a reason to be where he is whilst the amateur does not, he has only a wish to get something, anything. (Donovan...?)

There is a huge difference betwen catching a couple having a kiss on 5th Avenue and catching a soldier blowing away a prisoner on another street in another country. The intentions of the photographers are probably identical, but the opportunities - as the risks - are worlds apart. I feel that the shared excitement is largely imaginary. But we have made heroes out of these war junkies, weekend supplement whores, or just crazies. And I think we have because they go where most sane people fear to tread. Slightly perverse?

But back to time.

It was mentioned that photographic souvenir value counts for a lot, that it can bring comfort in old age. Perhaps, but with it can come as much regret as solace. I recently posted a pic of my old dog – dead twenty years; yes, searching for it because of the thread on dogs was a sort of mild fun, but it also opened up another can of worms, memories of walking with her with my late wife, with the kids, all of us playing with her in the snow in the local park during her first winter in life, and is that sweet? I wonder; I think it is probably more bitter than sweet.

When you are young, you seldom think about the distant future; pictures you shoot are about the moment, not an imaginary future you may or may not see.

It is said that time is a healer. I seriously doubt that. I believe that time allows things to distil, that it slowly eliminates the inconsequential subtexts and leaves you with the enormity of what has been lost staring you full in the face. And I believe that it is usually a matter of loss in old age. Personally, other than the kids, there is now nobody left of my family or little social group that knows much first-hand about me, my early life, my interests, where I went or what I did. And isn’t that revealing? What I did, where I went… and at the time it wasn’t just in the singular, but that’s how it becomes when thought is all that remains. One retreats ever more into the self. The alternative, becoming everyone’s new best friend is too sad to contemplate. And the hypocrisy in such would be as intolerable as it would transparent.

So in the scheme of things, photography is different things to each of us depending on opportunity, age and desires. Is it a bedroom key? Does it supply relief from a killing day-job? Does it give that adrenalin rush nothing else can?

All I know right now is that it gives me an out from the racing heads, the vicious circles that otherwise creep in unbidden and eat one’s mind like a worm.

Thank God for photography at this moment, this period in time. I wish it could also fix blood pressure, low or high, though I suspect that its buddy, the computer, is a malevolent big mother doing its best to kill me too.

Rob C

 
Title: Re: Time, photography and how we use it
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 29, 2010, 08:33:11 am
Well, it is very pleasure for you to put up with such a question. The musical time has shirked or been expanded depending on how you look at it. I quite agree with you at this point.
Anyway, I hope more solutions will be put up to keep a balance between the time and photography in our life.

Hum... yes... the balance.

Photography isn't a natural skill of man. It is one that we acquire and like all acquired skills it needs to be maintained. I play tennis better when I devote one hour to it every week, the same applies to photography.

So the balance between time and photography will always be a compromise in terms quality. Like 2 vases exchanging liquid whose total amount has to remain the same. The time we try to save by doing less photography will comprise the quality of the photography. Since photography manipulates time, freezes or slows it down, it looks like we cannot really cheat with time.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Time, photography and how we use it
Post by: Rob C on September 29, 2010, 11:49:29 am
Hum... yes... the balance.

Photography isn't a natural skill of man. It is one that we acquire and like all acquired skills it needs to be maintained. I play tennis better when I devote one hour to it every week, the same applies to photography.

So the balance between time and photography will always be a compromise in terms quality. Like 2 vases exchanging liquid whose total amount has to remain the same. The time we try to save by doing less photography will comprise the quality of the photography. Since photography manipulates time, freezes or slows it down, it looks like we cannot really cheat with time.

Cheers,
Bernard

"Photography isn't a natural skill of man. It is one that we acquire and like all acquired skills it needs to be maintained. I play tennis better when I devote one hour to it every week, the same applies to photography.”

Wow, Bernard, I can’t say I agree with you on this one. I think photography, as in seeing, is so fundamentally inside one that there is absolutely no need to do it all the time in order to retain the skill – it won’t atrophy if you don’t.

Where I would say you may have a point is in the ‘special tricks’ department, doing your panos and all that stuff (I wouldn’t even know where to start with that), and I’m pretty sure that the same can be said for Photoshop skills, to a degree. But that’s a slightly peripheral concern. The real meat of photography is in the vision, and doing it every day doesn’t always improve that, either. I see some sites where the guy finds a lighting setup that works and bang: everything is the same forever, hundreds of the same.

But flash and all that stuff is quickly relearned if you neglect it for a while. It isn’t the central thing at all.

Tennis is so different an idea that it is unfortunate you chose it to illustrate your point. It, tennis, depends to a huge degree on your physical condition a well as your co-ordination and eyesight; photography doesn’t depend on those physical attributes at all – it is living relatively safely inside your head.

Rob C

Title: Re: Time, photography and how we use it
Post by: Rob C on September 29, 2010, 11:53:06 am
I think that the tragedy of humanity has to do with time.
And time is ego
and ego is suffering...
to not suffer any more, all we have to do is erase time.
How? not projecting any more the ego into the past or the future, wich are both unexistents.
;D Gosh, I should do a speach in Oprah.


Almost as Hamlet might have put it.

;-)

Rob C
Title: Re: Time, photography and how we use it
Post by: Lost on September 29, 2010, 02:45:47 pm
Wow, Bernard, I can’t say I agree with you on this one. I think photography, as in seeing, is so fundamentally inside one that there is absolutely no need to do it all the time in order to retain the skill – it won’t atrophy if you don’t.

I think that photography is an odd mix of natural (seeing) and unnatural (camera driving) skills. Both of these for me change over time, and how they collide governs the images produced. Whether you see this as atrophying or growing is perhaps largely subjective (and certainly I am not the right one to judge!).