Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Doug Peterson on September 20, 2010, 07:31:41 am
-
Posted in our Photokina Coverage thread, but worthy of it's own thread:
(http://www.captureintegration.com/wp-content/uploads/Aptus-II-12.jpg)
More Information about the Leaf Aptus-II 12 and Leaf Aptus-II 12R (http://www.captureintegration.com/2010/09/20/leaf-aptus-ii-12-aptus-ii-12r/)
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) ("doug@captureintegration.com")
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/")
RSS Feed: Subscribe (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/")
Buy Capture One at 10% off (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/")
Personal Work (http://"http://www.doug-peterson.com/")
-
Doug,
Thanks for the update.
Any info on:
- presence of life view in back?
- battery life in cold weather?
- price?
- availability?
- DR?
- long exposures image quality?
- sensor type/make?
Thanks,
Bernard
-
I would guess:
- presence of life view in back?
NO
- battery life in cold weather?
same as current
- price?
expensive
- availability?
2011
- DR?
same as current
- long exposures image quality?
which sensor ?
- sensor type/make?
same as above
I THINk if it HAD Live view or any groundbreaking features we would already know about it, however as people mark 80Mp as the new thing, nothing has cahnged in the medium format world.
Edit
ok price for the back is €23,995, which certainly is a lot lower than the P65 when it came out.
-
http://www.leaf-photography.com/products_aptus212.asp
-
Nice to have more full-frame options, and I'm sure some landscape/architectural shooters will welcome the extra resolution, but I'm still left wishing that they had made a back with half the pixels, and therefore double the frame rate.
Also wondering if this will be released in an AFi mount. I assume there will be more information very shortly.
-
and where is the P85 + ;D
-
http://www.leaf-photography.com/products_aptus212.asp
Thks for the link. They mention a means to preview wirelessly an image on a ipod, are there any details on how this works?
Cheers,
Bernard
-
as far as i know you need to shoot to a mac, for it to work.
-
Wow! The hobbyists are going to be lining up to buy this thing! Seriously though... I personally want a 100'ish mp back that has real LiveView and an option to create a smaller RAW file when desired. I am going to refuse to buy into MFD until I get LiveView.
-
Forget 100MP, forget 80MP, the MP race leaves me cold, but this little thing www.dpreview.com/news/1009/10091910fujifilmx100.asp (http://www.dpreview.com/news/1009/10091910fujifilmx100.asp) really warms me *******.
Wow sweet! In the same day 80mp and 12mp looking like top of the line! Wow... man I know the exact type of camera I want for personal use and professional use. I just wish they were hurry up and make 'em! If this FinePix X100 can focus fast enough this may rock my shirt pocket.
-
problem that I see is:
if you(as the photographer) can't pay this puppy off within a year, what's the point in buying it? Just so you can say you have 80 MEGAPIXELS?(oooooh.... big word)
professionals(at least the ones I'm assisting here in LA) aren't needing even the 40mp of the P40+ back. Its too much for them. Most are perfectly fine with a 5dmII capture, and even then, its too much, and needs to be down-sized for the client. *note* this is usually done BY THE CLIENT.
what you have left is RICH AMATEURS, doctors, lawyers, and trust-fund babies to soak up the rest of the product availability(hopefully). And of course a few "fine art" people who feel they need to make more 40"x50" prints.
people seemed perfectly happy when we were at 33mp(Aptus 75s). Is the extra resolution a welcome addition? Why not? But spending ANOTHER $30k to update your back to the latest and greatest? Most IMO will really have to think AT LEAST twice about doing this. Watching an Aptus 75S sell on E-prey a few weeks ago for like $6k(under 10k shot count too, with mount-swap and extended warranty still on it), I think most people will be trying to get the most life out of their backs that they can.
and just imagine the moire problems on this sucker...
-Dan
can't they just bring out a 40mp 6x7 chip already? Enough of this 645 crap, RZ's were the mainstay 15yrs ago, and there's 1000's of them floating around, waiting to be used in a digital world(and rightly so).
c'mon leaf(and phase), bite the bullet and do a 6x7 chip(convince Kodak and Dalsa there's a good reason).
and lastly.... THIS WON'T MAKE YOU BETTER PICTURES, JUST BIGGER FILES. learn to photograph, then let the equipment follow
-
i do not plan to upgrade from my phase one kit until something revolutionary is available (200mp+). the process of obtaining a satisfactory capture from a digital back which satisfies my preferences in the end result (large exhibition prints) requires nearly as much concentration, and time in PS preparing to print, as with my view camera - the difference being with sheet film i pay as i go and must wait a bit longer to receive the tango/premier drum scanned file (kindly note even 5x7 sheets result in 16 bit files with the resolution of a 500mp+ back). if one is really after 6 feet of resolution, in either direction, why use digital back? my printer has attempted every trick in the book to enhance massive prints from phase one files which simply aren't up to par (in terms of resolution per inch) to scanned sheet film.
why a commercial shooter would want either sort of resolution is beyond me.
http://www.aztek.com/premier.html
-
I'm wondering who the target customer is for any back that's over 60MP.
The Seitz Roundshot offers 160 MP (iirc) and has been around for years. If you want to blow people away with highly detailed landscapes or interiors, then isn't this the way to go?
-
Agreed, I'd much rather have a 40MP in 6x7 format than 80MP in 645. I'd also like to see some real innovation in both the backs and cameras rather than this never-ending megapixel race. Still, I'm glad to see new products being launched at all, especially the new glass, and I'm hoping for an all new P1/Mamiya camera in the not too distant future.
-
Unlikely, H6/AFi is dead >:(
But.. the 'R' version is also available : "On the Leaf Aptus-II 12R you can change from landscape to portrait orientation with a simple turn of the Leaf Verto internal sensor rotation dial. Enjoy the comfort of keeping the camera upright, rotating just the sensor."
What camera would that be useful for apart from the AFi? (Ok, the Hasselblad V is the only other possibility but I find it hard to believe they designed the R version for the Hass V - it is very unlikely there is any customer using this combination.)
-
Thanks for the update.
Any info on:
- presence of life view in back?
- battery life in cold weather?
- price?
- availability?
- DR?
- long exposures image quality?
- sensor type/make?
Bernard, thanks for the questions.
- presence of life view in back? No
- price?
$31,990 back only, $35,990 with DF body and Schneider 80mm LS
upgrade pricing is TBA
- availability? Shipping by end of year; first come, first served.
- long exposures image quality? same as other Aptus-II units
- sensor type/make? Dalsa chip exclusive to Phase One Family
- battery life in cold weather?
- DR?
These two questions should wait until we (CI) have tested a shipping back. Dynamic Range is a natural concern as you place more pixels onto the same size sensor. However, Leaf is claiming the DR has slightly improved compared to the Aptus-II 10 despite have smaller pixel size.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) ("doug@captureintegration.com")
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/")
RSS Feed: Subscribe (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/")
Buy Capture One at 10% off (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/")
Personal Work (http://"http://www.doug-peterson.com/")
-
We've posted a 100% JPG compliments of a test done by Leaf and photographer Julian Cornish-Trestrail.
A single-shot's back's mortal enemy has always been fabric (at least when shot with sharp lenses). Here is an unretouched image using a Rodenstock 90mm showing really impressive sharpness. Do the evaluation yourself.
Leaf is claiming this as a as-good-or-better than the best multishot solutions. We're anxious to get our hands on it to do our own tests, but this test shoot is extremely promising in that regard.
A raw file is not possible until a public version of Capture One or Leaf Capture is released with support for the raw files from the Leaf Aptus-II 12.
Download Leaf Aptus-II 12 full resolution file (http://www.captureintegration.com/2010/09/20/leaf-aptus-ii-12-aptus-ii-12r/)
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) ("doug@captureintegration.com")
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/")
RSS Feed: Subscribe (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/")
Buy Capture One at 10% off (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/")
Personal Work (http://"http://www.doug-peterson.com/")
-
Leaf is claiming this as a as-good-or-better than the best multishot solutions. We're anxious to get our hands on it to do our own tests, but this test shoot is extremely promising in that regard.
Leaf should know better. Who else, other than an artwork repro photographer, is going to really need an 80mp back. I think Leaf is grasping at straws here.
-
Leaf should know better. Who else, other than an artwork repro photographer, is going to really need an 80mp back. I think Leaf is grasping at straws here.
The 10 * 8 shooters who still think that 60Mpx is not enough, and still use 10 * 8", or stitch 60Mpx to get res.
-
I'm wondering who the target customer is for any back that's over 60MP.
The Seitz Roundshot offers 160 MP (iirc) and has been around for years. If you want to blow people away with highly detailed landscapes or interiors, then isn't this the way to go?
If Seitz had made a 617 back compatible with a Sinar 5 * 7" (for full movements) I would have bought one.
-
Wow... what's with all the haters?
Full frame 645 ... cool! Good for Leaf!
-
Leaf should know better. Who else, other than an artwork repro photographer, is going to really need an 80mp back. I think Leaf is grasping at straws here.
Please don't mix up what YOU need with what EVERYONE will need. I have written to my dealer asking them to put my name down already.
-
it has always been the same: some will always ask "why more resolution?"
But those things sell very well, obviously...
-
Please don't mix up what YOU need with what EVERYONE will need. I have written to my dealer asking them to put my name down already.
I was referring more to the statement that it is as good or better than multishot. Obviously this won't be the case. I think leaf knows that there could be a lot of repro photographers with high interest after a statement like that.
-
Leaf should know better. Who else, other than an artwork repro photographer, is going to really need an 80mp back. I think Leaf is grasping at straws here.
you'll be surprised how many photographers have sold their current MF systems just a half year ago and decide to work with 5DMkII until the next MF "step up" Camera arrives..
-
I was referring more to the statement that it is as good or better than multishot. Obviously this won't be the case. I think leaf knows that there could be a lot of repro photographers with high interest after a statement like that.
I think stating it is as good or better than multishot is a reasonable statement from a general standpoint. Obviously they mean from a lower resolution multi-shot, since there is no multi-shot higher resolving than 50MP. And in that case, there are situations where the quality could be very equivalent. Last week I stopped into a client who captures carpeting, flooring, etc. They shoot 22MP multi-shot. It is not enough resolution for them. They need more. Should Leaf not make more?
Steve Hendrix
-
I think stating it is as good or better than multishot is a reasonable statement from a general standpoint. Obviously they mean from a lower resolution multi-shot, since there is no multi-shot higher resolving than 50MP. And in that case, there are situations where the quality could be very equivalent. Last week I stopped into a client who captures carpeting, flooring, etc. They shoot 22MP multi-shot. It is not enough resolution for them. They need more. Should Leaf not make more?
Steve Hendrix
we'll see. I can't see someone upgrading from a multishot to a single shot regardless of the megapixels. The natural path would be to upgrade to a higher resolution multishot. I just can't imagine an still life guy choosing the Aptus-II 12 over a 50mp multishot back.
A comparison to a 22mp multishot would be interesting. I still think you'll have a noticeably cleaner image with the 22.
So I'm assuming an Aptus-II 11 will be coming soon? crop sensor. how many megapixels?
-
we'll see. I can't see someone upgrading from a multishot to a single shot regardless of the megapixels. The natural path would be to upgrade to a higher resolution multishot. I just can't imagine an still life guy choosing the Aptus-II 12 over a 50mp multishot back.
A comparison to a 22mp multishot would be interesting. I still think you'll have a noticeably cleaner image with the 22.
So I'm assuming an Aptus-II 11 will be coming soon? crop sensor. how many megapixels?
I can see multiple clients that are requesting this right now. I met with one last week and am meeting one this week. Flooring and food.
Steve Hendrix
-
Last week I stopped into a client who captures carpeting, flooring, etc. They shoot 22MP multi-shot. It is not enough resolution for them. They need more. Should Leaf not make more?
Hi Steve,
Rather than longing for something that may or may not transpire in time, wouldn't the obvious advise (from a quality point-of-view rather than generating immediate sales) be to use a longer focal length and stitch? Especially easy with stationary objects.
Cheers,
Bart
-
Hi Steve,
Rather than longing for something that may or may not transpire in time, wouldn't the obvious advise (from a quality point-of-view rather than generating immediate sales) be to use a longer focal length and stitch? Especially easy with stationary objects.
Cheers,
Bart
Bart:
The point is - they want more resolution. They need it fast, they need it simple. They don't wish to stitch, they don't wish to shoot multi shot. For the flooring client in particular, they need more resolution, delivered to them faster. There are other facets of the solution that also interest them, bottom line is it addresses their quality/productivity issues and that is what concerns them. It doesn't have anything to do with "generating an immediate sale". And I'm not sure what you mean by "may or may not transpire in time"?
Steve Hendrix
-
Bart:
The point is - they want more resolution. They need it fast, they need it simple. They don't wish to stitch, they don't wish to shoot multi shot. For the flooring client in particular, they need more resolution, delivered to them faster.
How's waiting for a future higher resolution sensor/camera going to get them higher resolution results faster, unless one strictly focuses on processing time? I understood that they felt the need to be able and differentiate their offering now.
There are other facets of the solution that also interest them, bottom line is it addresses their quality/productivity issues and that is what concerns them.
Quality and productivity doesn't always go hand in hand.
It doesn't have anything to do with "generating an immediate sale". And I'm not sure what you mean by "may or may not transpire in time"?
When the need to capture higher resolution is the client's desire, and current product offerings do not satisfy their immediate needs, then what's wrong with providing an alternative solution? Even if they reject it from a productivity standpoint, it will satisfy their quality requirements now, and they will return to you when the hardware solution presents itself!
Cheers,
Bart
-
Wow... what's with all the haters?
No hate, but disapointment resulting from misplaced expectations that the next generation Leaf/Phase back would meet my needs. Now, to be fair, we have not seen yet news from the phaseone line. It could be that they have decided to focus Leaf on studio and the Phaseone line on the great outdoors, but some clear communication on that would be welcome.
I don't doubt the fact that some people might need more resolution in single shots assuming that they have optimized all the rest already. I also understand that if the choice is between staying still or at least improving one aspect of the backs performance it is better to move forward. My personnal concern though is that the resources focused on this will obviously not have worked on what I - and many others it would seem - would prefer to see, meaning live view, lower prices and overall more ambitious physical speccing starting to close the huge gap with the 645D for instance.
Cheers,
Bernard
-
How's waiting for a future higher resolution sensor/camera going to get them higher resolution results faster, unless one strictly focuses on processing time? I understood that they felt the need to be able and differentiate their offering now.
Quality and productivity doesn't always go hand in hand.
When the need to capture higher resolution is the client's desire, and current product offerings do not satisfy their immediate needs, then what's wrong with providing an alternative solution? Even if they reject it from a productivity standpoint, it will satisfy their quality requirements now, and they will return to you when the hardware solution presents itself!
Cheers,
Bart
Bart:
With all due respect, I'm not going to further discuss the details of what my client is considering. You're making some generalized assumptions about a situation, the specifics of which you aren't privy to and that I don't feel are - in the interest of this thread - worth deciphering.
Instead, I'd like to stick to my basic point that there are clients and situations that yes, are interested in high resolution single shot capture, regardless of whether they are coming from single or multi-shot capture solutions.
Steve Hendrix
-
Bart:
With all due respect, I'm not going to further discuss the details of what my client is considering.
Fair enough.
You're making some generalized assumptions about a situation, the specifics of which you aren't privy to and that I don't feel are - in the interest of this thread - worth deciphering.
Hey, I can only work based on the info that you supplied, you can't expect clairvoyance based on that! :-\
Cheers,
Bart
-
i notice contax mount isnt listed....
is this the end of supporting what is probably the most desirable camera system? it would be a shame
paul
-
I can see multiple clients that are requesting this right now. I met with one last week and am meeting one this week. Flooring and food.
Steve Hendrix
\
I can understand from both a selling and buying standpoint why 22mp wouldn't be enough resolution for many tasks. but whether it is flooring or food, where would the benefit be for buying an 80mp over a multishot 50 or even a single shot 60 mp? You can get these for a fraction of the cost and in 99 out of a 100 cases you still have too many megapixels. Are photographers lazy? Does it take too long for flooring and food photographers to let the multishot backs do their job? When does this mp race slow down? As photographers, we need to express our opinions. I hope that photographers finally realize what they need and buy accordingly. The only good thing with this is that equal 33 or 39 mp backs are available slightly used for cheap.
Give me a multishot back that can shoot a 24"x36" piece of art at 360 dpi and 1:1 without stitching and that's another story. At least that would address art repro.
-
Fair enough.
Hey, I can only work based on the info that you supplied, you can't expect clairvoyance based on that! :-\
Cheers,
Bart
Bart - no offense meant, just could see that conveying the many discussions I've had with the client, their workflow, etc., was going to end up being a very difficult process to reconcile with your questions, which were reasonable, but weren't going to be specific enough to this client's workflow.
Again - my only point was situations do exist for this product. For most applications, the 80MP is certainly overkill. So those who operate under those requirements, save your money. But it's probably not the product for you. It's good to hear from those who would like it to be, to know that desire is there. For all of medium format's publicized shortcomings, the interest level remains very high, which is a very good thing.
Steve Hendrix
-
\
I can understand from both a selling and buying standpoint why 22mp wouldn't be enough resolution for many tasks. but whether it is flooring or food, where would the benefit be for buying an 80mp over a multishot 50 or even a single shot 60 mp? You can get these for a fraction of the cost and in 99 out of a 100 cases you still have too many megapixels. Are photographers lazy? Does it take too long for flooring and food photographers to let the multishot backs do their job? When does this mp race slow down? As photographers, we need to express our opinions. I hope that photographers finally realize what they need and buy accordingly. The only good thing with this is that equal 33 or 39 mp backs are available slightly used for cheap.
Give me a multishot back that can shoot a 24"x36" piece of art at 360 dpi and 1:1 without stitching and that's another story. At least that would address art repro.
Jonathan, I don't understand your "selling and buying" statement. Are you referring to POS materials?
I didn't say the client hadn't already considered a 60MP solution (they may still). These discussions didn't begin yesterday. Price-wise, I think 60MP digital backs at a "fraction" of the cost of an 80MP back is a bit of an overstatement...In fact, as of today, an 80MP Leaf Aptus II costs less than a 60MP Phase One, although I'm sure that may change shortly.
I don't understand your lazy photography remark either. If anything, I find just the opposite. Photographers are working harder than they ever have (at least our clients are). More shots, faster turnaround, speed to market. The pace is intense and yes, time is a factor. I don't think it has anything to do with laziness. A single shot solution can make a huge difference.
Steve Hendrix
-
don't forget that clients crop often, and high megapixels can be a life saver. also makes for easier compositing, being able to blow up parts of an image. if i could afford to have more than 40mp i would.
paul
-
But.. the 'R' version is also available ...
What camera would that be useful for apart from the AFi? (Ok, the Hasselblad V is the only other possibility but I find it hard to believe they designed the R version for the Hass V - it is very unlikely there is any customer using this combination.)
Graham,
Apparently the 'R' version is limited to Hasselblad V mount, currently. I agree--it would be interesting to see this offered in a Hy6/AFi mount, even if done only upon request by the customer.
-
as an architect photographer, i'm dreaming of this kind of large file (and can't afford it, my clients need A3 max. anyway... )... but i'm suspicious about the diffraction problem... if you need large DOF, you will face a real problem here !
-
Good for Leaf (owned by Phase). I shoot a lot of fine art repro with a 39MP Multi-shot back. For sure, 80MP is a real boost in terms of resolution. That back would certainly allow more options in terms being able to use Copal shutters instead of electronic shutters. The big unknown with this back is color accuracy. There is something to be said for exposing separately for r,g,g,b in terms of achieving better color fidelity. The pixel ingegrity is very high with the 6.8 micron 39MP back when shooting in multi-shot mode. I've yet to have a client complain about lack of detail in anything I've reproduced. I've also become adept at stitching, which is no big deal if you're set up for it.
-
It's a big step forward in my opinion; I'm doing mostly studio still life, and the occassional landscape and people shots , all with an Aptus 75, on Sinar and sometimes the Mamiya RZ.
I'm also using the 5DII as a backup and walk-around camera.
The ratio of 3:4 is something that makes the new back a lot more useful for me than the current Leaf backs ; 80 MP are great, I can never have too much resolution, and the clients will love it.
Sure I would rather see an even bigger sensor, yet there is a reason why we don't see those, I guess.
A multi-shot back would be too limiting for me, that's out of the question; with that kind of investment, I want to be flexible.
It remains to be seen how moire is being treated by the Aptus 12 - it's a big issue with the A75 - and image quality in general, in particular when camera movements and/or wide angle lenses are being used on a view camera.
But I'm optimistic, given Leaf's experience and excellent track record.
Good to see the R-version as an option, and the much more affordable non-R model .
It's a great offering by Leaf from my point of view, the A12 looks very tempting to me, finally a real upgrade possibilty for my trusty old A75 .
What I'm missing is Live-View - is it not available at all anymore ?
Also, is the longest exposure time still 30 seconds ?
-
The good news for all the complainers out there is that there will be some P65+ trade ins, and that is a simply brilliant back with huge DR full frame sensor, and great color. A real step up from the P45 generation. Well worth looking out for.
-
Exactly if there is a way for me to upgrade to the P65 from my P40 than i will do it and it's not for the MPX although would be nice it is for my lenses and the 1.3 crop. I would like to see my 80LS and 55 LS to be wider for me than it is today. Also I already ordered the new 35D but with a FF I would have better gap spacing and the crop lines do get in the way sometimes. So yes if there is a way at a good cost to me. I'm all over it
What many may not realize is the sensor alone opens many doors to different configurations and backs for Phase and Leaf. Always need to be looking down the path on this stuff.
BTW the 55mm LS is really really nice just did a nice little informal test with it and love it so far. The LS glass has a nice look to them and with a 80 mpx coming a good choice for it. You can check out the 55mm here if interested http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19555
-
long exposure and noise ?
hight iso performances ?
allowed camera movements without colour shift ?
skin tones ?
moiré ?
colors quality ?
-
I would think the moire maybe less. I tested this once and noticed as the micron size got smaller so did the moire pattern. The rest we will have to see how it tests out, be interesting to see what this sensor can do and not do for that matter.
Frankly love to see this sensor in a P45/P25 crop factor which I liked a lot.
-
i notice contax mount isnt listed....
is this the end of supporting what is probably the most desirable camera system? it would be a shame
paul
No mate they want YOU to fork out on a new Mamiya/Phase DF and sell your nice kit on e-bay :o
I think we all need to sit back and take a breath. People want more MP, they must selling this stuff to someone to recoup the development costs, so it is selling. They will keep all the other "lower" lines going including the P25+ which is a fantastic 22MP back. So everyone calm down, you pick you back and pays yer money.
True I would have liked a cheaper "true full 645 frame" sensor or new capabilities like better high iso or in-back image stabilisation, but these things would be done if there were simple or cheap to do. Cleary they are not, whillst packing more Mp into the sensor is...and apparently they can do this without loosing anything (DR or much of a frame rate hit).
So its still progress to some extent even if most of us don't think its in the right direction :-\
-
long exposure and noise ?
It's DALSA; so it's going to be relatively weak on these particular specs. Even in their technical papers they acknowledge that Kodak sensors have half the dark current, in pound-for-pound comparisons.
hight iso performances ?
With a base ISO of only 80, that tells its own story. Clearly there are no microlenses. When it's gained up 10x to ISO 800, don't expect miracles. However if this were PhaseOne rather than Leaf, it would be a good candidate for a Sensor+ pixel binning mode, with 20 MPix. Now that they're wedded together, might there be a technology share? But I'm sure if there was, we'd have seen it in the press release.
-
Apologies for this cross posting. Limited bandwidth and only a few hours left to sleep before another crazy day starts;
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showpost.php?p=247609&postcount=29 (http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showpost.php?p=247609&postcount=29)
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showpost.php?p=247615&postcount=30 (http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showpost.php?p=247615&postcount=30)
Yair
-
amazing details yaya
-
Pretty impressive.
-
Apologies for this cross posting. Limited bandwidth and only a few hours left to sleep before another crazy day starts;
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showpost.php?p=247609&postcount=29 (http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showpost.php?p=247609&postcount=29)
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showpost.php?p=247615&postcount=30 (http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showpost.php?p=247615&postcount=30)
Yair
Thks, the daytime image seems to be very free of moire and artifacts.
Micro detail rendition is good but shows a bit of painterly effect that might be the result of the distance combined with processing. Regardless, it would look extremely detailed in print.
The night image is OK, but there is significant image degradation. At 25sec you are probably already behind a P45 in terms of absolute image quality.
Cheers,
Bernard
-
A multi-shot back would be too limiting for me, that's out of the question; with that kind of investment, I want to be flexible.
I might be mis-reading you but wanted to point out that Multi-shot backs will also shoot single shot just like a regular old back.
Nick-T
-
Thks, the daytime image seems to be very free of moire and artifacts.
Micro detail rendition is good but shows a bit of painterly effect that might be the result of the distance combined with processing. Regardless, it would look extremely detailed in print.
The night image is OK, but there is significant image degradation. At 25sec you are probably already behind a P45 in terms of absolute image quality.
Cheers,
Bernard
Looks like they have been processed and the color noise has been removed. I still find statements like "multi-shot killer" quite alarming. Is there a need to make these claims if it is indeed true? I'm not very impressed by those samples. To me, the noise in the shadows is severe even in the daytime shots. Then again... whos looking at these images at 100% anyway
-
Multi-shot = better color fidelity
-
Apologies for this cross posting. Limited bandwidth and only a few hours left to sleep before another crazy day starts;
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showpost.php?p=247609&postcount=29 (http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showpost.php?p=247609&postcount=29)
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showpost.php?p=247615&postcount=30 (http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showpost.php?p=247615&postcount=30)
Yair
I appreciate the effort, but the hand-held and 'pillow-mounted' shots are not showing the system off to its best advantage. It's hard to distinguish what is camera shake, what is the limitation of the lens, and what is due to the back itself. The fabric image which was already posted was far superior.
I also noticed the 'painted' effect, which I find odd but as Bernard pointed out, it will no doubt look good in print.
I'll reserve final judgment of the back (rather than the system as a whole) until I see more reliable samples.
-
Seems to me the sample shots posted are very poor quality - is it just me ? The shots look like my D200 at 400iso I am sure a 80MP back will produce mind blowing images - i will wait to see in person :)
-
The 10 * 8 shooters who still think that 60Mpx is not enough, and still use 10 * 8", or stitch 60Mpx to get res.
Well, 80mp isn't going catch well exposed and well scanned 8x10 film. 60 to 80 mp isn't really a big jump in resolution. I used to think my p65 was close until I visited Rodney Loughs gallery in Vegas.
-
The samples that Doug linked and those that Yair posted do look great but I'm wondering why this back is being advertised as a multishot killer specifically? I mean anyone who's shot with a multishot back or micro step will know this is an odd comparison. Besides having almost the same amount of pixels as say an older ixpress 528c in 16shot mode (88megapix in true color) is there any thing new with this back that increases color fidelity or color tonality?
-
Here's an image with 100% crops taken with a multishot back in microstep mode for comparison since I was curious. The pixel count (10880 x 8160 but in true color) is similar to a single shot of the Aptus 12, but obviously its not going to be an apples to apples comparison to the ones Yair provided as those were hand held and two frames stitched and they have some distance (lots of atmosphere) to muck things up. This was taken with an ixpress 528c on my Rollei 6008AF tripod mounted after I had just received the back. 1/8 second exposure per frame and I had the thing incorrectly configured so it was cycling the mirror in between frames. What I think is interesting besides the detail is the richness of color. Look for the water stains on the box and things like that with subtle color changes.
-
Multishot is nice for some applications but you can't shoot for example a model with it, having 80MP's will fight moire very nicely.
They have a shot online with very difficult materials, just scroll through that and you can see there is no moire to be found anywhere.
Yair also made a shot from London which is absolutely breathtaking "do you see that boat ? no... well here it is including the people in it..... Oh it was that dot there"
For me PERSONALLY having 33MP is more than enough at the moment but I can imagine that people in landscape, architecture, repro and of course who work with difficult materials that HAVE to be 100% right the AptusII 12 can be a great addition.
I do remember however that a LOT of people complained about not having a full frame 6x45 back and they would run out if they could buy one, well here it is and to be honest the price was the biggest surprise for me, it's very affordable compared to what you paid for the AptusII 10 a while ago.
And yes I hope they release a full frame with 33-40MP at a price point of the AptusII 7, but for the time being I think they have a wonderful back series.
And I think in a few years time 80MP will probably be "a" or maybe "the" standard.
-
Frank,
yes of course that's true - I was mostly curious to see the comparison as this back has been labeled as a multishot killer.
Eric
-
Here's an image with 100% crops taken with a multishot back in microstep mode for comparison since I was curious. The pixel count (10880 x 8160 but in true color) is similar to a single shot of the Aptus 12, but obviously its not going to be an apples to apples comparison to the ones Yair provided as those were hand held and two frames stitched and they have some distance (lots of atmosphere) to muck things up. This was taken with an ixpress 528c on my Rollei 6008AF tripod mounted after I had just received the back. 1/8 second exposure per frame and I had the thing incorrectly configured so it was cycling the mirror in between frames. What I think is interesting besides the detail is the richness of color. Look for the water stains on the box and things like that with subtle color changes.
This machines are suit. The image fire almost Synesthesic reactions in my brain. If the MF industry is able to create this kind of pictures on a more responsive package we are moving into a very interesting times. Right now MF is under attack by the each day better 35mm SLR. Also the 35mm Market is under attack from MF systems, each year more affordable. The way this backs appears to handle moire means that resolution buy you something more than pixels. If the new back (the aptus) were able to provide the cadence that some new fashion work need it will be quite a showing.
So medium format companies are getting there. The question is: Do they have the time needed before the good enough mind set eats them away?
Also each user that moves to 35mm is one user less to pay for R&D. I believe that this sensors will end up on the H4D-40s and P45+s replacements of the not so distant future.
The camera is more than the sensor, I know that, and at that level 35mm SLR are far ahead even in front of the big MF players. But in this other direction is hard to say that MF is not becoming good enough :)
-
Seems to me the sample shots posted are very poor quality - is it just me ?
This all seems like more marketing than substance, at least from these samples.
I guess your not suppose to pixel compared at 100% but then again when it's marketed as a super definition device, the shadows from th exterior shots shouldn't look that rough.
Probably with studio flash the samples will look better, (though all images look better with studio flash), though at a base 80 iso it pretty much is a studio flash back, so maybe that's why it's marketed as a multi shot option.
I would have loved to see Leaf add a few more things in this back like a lithium battery and while they're at it moving the battery away from the firewire connection so the back can power the firewire during tethering.
Personally the samples I'd like to see are various skin tones, but maybe this is a still life back as all the early samples are devoid of human subjects.
BTW: does anybody know what the raw file size is for this back and if it can be compressed into different sizes?
BC
-
The Aptus file sizes are Raw 165MB / Raw compressed 107MB. They say sensor flex yes, this used to be a crop size only available in tethered mode with the Aptus 10. No Idea what crop sizes will be available for the A12. Skin tones without makeup (hands, legs etc) are always difficult, but for our work we found the best results with the leaf backs. Large file sizes for fashion use will be a headache, and for us the frame rate is a killing factor. We are using the A II 10 now and the results are really stunning. Very fast capture rate and great skin tones, file size and the transfer time to see the images on the (computer) display feels already a bit limiting. What´s wrong about the battery? We hardly ever work untethered but never experienced problems when we did, tethered use is rock solid, never felt the need for an additional battery.
I´ll take a look tomorrow ;-))
Cheers, Ulf
-
Yes the speed drop to 1.5fps is disappointing. Its 33% more pixels than a P65+ but seems to be 50% slower.
-
Sample images posted by eric are similar to what I would expect from the leaf - sharp and clear with tons of detail ! And that was done with an older back, similar to my Rollei 6008i/54M combo. Even at 32s my Sinar 54M is close to noise free why are the Leaf samples so "dirty" ? Love to see some samples shot with a tripod !
-
any close ups of the sky from those multishot pics? only whenever i used multishot on location something always moved and would have to shoot a single shot back-up and go over the multi shot file to look for the tell tale jagged edges where something moved during the exposures.
-
I appreciate the effort, but the hand-held and 'pillow-mounted' shots are not showing the system off to its best advantage. It's hard to distinguish what is camera shake, what is the limitation of the lens, and what is due to the back itself. The fabric image which was already posted was far superior.
I also noticed the 'painted' effect, which I find odd but as Bernard pointed out, it will no doubt look good in print.
I'll reserve final judgment of the back (rather than the system as a whole) until I see more reliable samples.
Well there are some things that cannot be blamed on camera shake or lens limitations. In the 25-sec night shot crops of the cathedral, there are quite obvious isolated white and black pixels. These would appear to be undercorrected and overcorrected hot pixels, respectively. For a brand new CCD (no radiation aging), this would be disappointing.
But before we jump to conclusions, some questions for Yair:
1) Was there a dark frame taken consecutively with the cathedral exposure and of equal duration? Was it manually or automatically subtracted?
2) How good is the temperature control on the back - what sort of ventilation or cooling is employed? Does it maintain the sensor at parity with the ambient temperature?
Ray
-
Here's an image with 100% crops taken with a multishot back in microstep mode for comparison since I was curious. The pixel count (10880 x 8160 but in true color) is similar to a single shot of the Aptus 12
Eric, a 22MP multi-shot camera does not give 88MP, and it certainly does not magically give a 10880x8160 image from a 5440x4080 sensor; the sensor does not have that spatial resolution. What it gives is 22MP, with each pixel of very high quality due to being based on two green, one red, and one blue measurement. All industry standards for sensors rightly count pixels as locations on the sensor, and then distinguish the amount of information at each location.
For example, the official CIPA(?) designation for the new Sigma/Foveon sensor is "15.36MPx3", meaning "15.36MP, each with three color values", not (15.36x3)MP = 46MP. Even Foveon acknowledges in its technical papers that by measuring all three primary colors at each location, its X3 sensors give roughly the resolution of a Bayer CFA sensor of twice the pixel count, not thrice (or in this case four times) the pixel count. (Sigma's marketing department then ignores what its own Foveon division engineers say! Pity, because even the truth probably gives its new 15MPx3 sensor distinctly better resolution than any current APS-C rival, and probably better resolution than any current 35mm format sensor.)
But 39MP multi-shot vs 80MP single shot might be an interesting and close comparison.
-
Eric, a 22MP multi-shot camera does not give 88MP,
It certainly does, in 16-shot mode.
-
Even Foveon acknowledges in its technical papers that by measuring all three primary colors at each location, its X3 sensors give roughly the resolution of a Bayer CFA sensor of twice the pixel count,
Mostly due to the absence of an AA-filter, and a little color resolution due to the x3 sampling. See where the spin starts to confuse matters, which is what I warned about in the thread about the announcement ...
But let's not digress from the original topic, in this MF/film/DB forum.
Cheers,
Bart
-
BJL,
Graham already answered for me - there's a big difference between 16 shot (key word here = microstep ) and multishot backs as you've now learned. For all - if you want to learn more about multishot and microstep backs then I'd suggest you post a new thread so that this one about the Aptus 12 doesn't get off track.
Eric
-
I don't know why these day 100% crop look like that, but I can tell you they look a lot better when the real raw format is opened.
-
I don't know why these day 100% crop look like that, but I can tell you they look a lot better when the real raw format is opened.
Chris it could be the size that Yair loaded the images up and our forum software actually compressing it down to fit a size limit. If Yair can load them in the Gallery first than use the BBC code it would work better. He obviously might not have time for that. If he wanted to send to me first than I can load them up for him. As the admin I have higher size limit to post:)
-
This Leaf would be a tremendous tool for the "Edward Burtynsky like". I mean, art galleries photographers.
I think he finally started to work with a digital Hasselblad. But I see people like him really enjoying such a device.
For me, I would be more than happy if the MF players would one day point another "target" and do a fast 20 ish MP back but CMOS with live view AND video capabilities to narrow even more the DOF in video.
As the MF cameras are big, the lcd could be at least a 4" articulated or bigger...(dream on 1)
Or a 6x6 full frame CCD of 40ish mp. (Dream on 2 Fred)
And in those prices, they offer the steadycam.
-
I don't know why these day 100% crop look like that, but I can tell you they look a lot better when the real raw format is opened.
Yeah; I can speak to the fact the sample images I viewed with Yair looked fabulous.
For now maybe you can turn your drool towards the 100% crop in JPG (max quality) from our website that I got from him by Sneakernet at Photokina. :-)
http://www.captureintegration.com/2010/09/20/leaf-aptus-ii-12-aptus-ii-12r/
This sensor really rocks. Give it a bit of time - Leaf always does a great job of getting newly released backs in the hands of photographers that can get the most out of it to get sample files that show what the back is capable of. Also tweaks for long exposure capture/processing and tweaks to the sensor readout in firmware are something that is typically worked on until the shipment of the first production back (and even then continued to be tweaked for months or even years after initial release).
That said check out the file at the link above to see why I'm already very excited.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) ("doug@captureintegration.com")
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/")
RSS Feed: Subscribe (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/")
Buy Capture One at 10% off (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/")
Personal Work (http://"http://www.doug-peterson.com/")
-
Yeah; I can speak to the fact the sample images I viewed with Yair looked fabulous.
For now maybe you can turn your drool towards the 100% crop in JPG (max quality) from our website that I got from him by Sneakernet at Photokina. :-)
http://www.captureintegration.com/2010/09/20/leaf-aptus-ii-12-aptus-ii-12r/
This sensor really rocks. Give it a bit of time - Leaf always does a great job of getting newly released backs in the hands of photographers that can get the most out of it to get sample files that show what the back is capable of. Also tweaks for long exposure capture/processing and tweaks to the sensor readout in firmware are something that is typically worked on until the shipment of the first production back (and even then continued to be tweaked for months or even years after initial release).
That said check out the file at the link above to see why I'm already very excited.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) ("doug@captureintegration.com")
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/")
RSS Feed: Subscribe (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/")
Buy Capture One at 10% off (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/")
Personal Work (http://"http://www.doug-peterson.com/")
Pretty impressed with the 1,5 frrame/sec considering the files.
That is better than before in relation to the size.
-
Pretty impressed with the 1,5 frrame/sec considering the files.
That is better than before in relation to the size.
Isn't it 1.5 second per frame? :)
Cheers,
Bernard
-
Yeah, lots of folks (even journalists) have been getting that backwards. From Leaf's specs it is 1.5 seconds per frame or 0.67fps.
-
Yea we are talking MF here folks not rocket Canons. We don't speak FPS. LOL
-
;D
-
I don't doubt that was the case.
What was interesting was that despite the obvious poor image quality there was still a positive reaction to them on GetDP1. It seems that folk were seeing what they expected or wanted to see rather than what was actually staring them in the face.
Perhaps I'm missing something here and the folk over on GetDPI were looking at different versions or even the RAW files?
Keith I'm back in UK next week with a working unit if you would like to see it for yourself just let me know. Apologies for my poor photographic skills, I'll try harder next time around
Cheers
yair
ysh@leaf-photography.com
-
Keith I'm back in UK next week with a working unit if you would like to see it for yourself just let me know. Apologies for my poor photographic skills, I'll try harder next time around
Cheers
yair
ysh@leaf-photography.com
That is quick ... last I heard, ¿months? after they started shipping there were two H4D-60 in the UK!
¿Perhaps, when I get my hands on an H4D-60, we can meet up for a comparison shootout?
-
But.. the 'R' version is also available : "On the Leaf Aptus-II 12R you can change from landscape to portrait orientation with a simple turn of the Leaf Verto internal sensor rotation dial. Enjoy the comfort of keeping the camera upright, rotating just the sensor."
What camera would that be useful for apart from the AFi? (Ok, the Hasselblad V is the only other possibility but I find it hard to believe they designed the R version for the Hass V - it is very unlikely there is any customer using this combination.)
Well, it's also nice on view cameras (without need for turning adapters or remounting) - but I definetely will go there at Photokina tomorrow and ask them about AFI-mount (I just got an AFI-II 7 - OK, I really do not need more nor I have the money, but it would be nice to know that the AFI-platform is supported with new developments in future...). So let's wait and see...
Andreas - [OT]not longer flying to Tallinn, airbase movement area finalized...[/OT]
-
Dear Yair, or any body else with the knowledges - you have my attention ;D - maybe it's time to retire my faithful A75.
But, could you please answer this two basic questions - they have beed asked before in this thread, but I can't find the answers:
Long exposure? (it's more than 30 sec'.... right? - as an AP 60 sec will mean a great deal, clean 60 sec)
The LCD? (it's better than the current one, aptus-II 7... right?... please tell me so)
Looking forward to give this back a spin.
Very best,
Adam
-
Dear Yair, or any body else with the knowledges - you have my attention ;D - maybe it's time to retire my faithful A75.
But, could you please answer this two basic questions - they have beed asked before in this thread, but I can't find the answers:
Long exposure? (it's more than 30 sec'.... right? - as an AP 60 sec will mean a great deal, clean 60 sec)
The LCD? (it's better than the current one, aptus-II 7... right?... please tell me so)
Looking forward to give this back a spin.
Very best,
Adam
Hi Adam,
Long exposure performance (32 sec limit) are expected to be similar or a bit better than the Aptus-II 10
The screen is the same screen as in all the other Aptus-II backs
Still worth a spin IMO, I think it will impress you a lot
Best
Yair
-
Hi Adam,
Long exposure performance (32 sec limit) are expected to be similar or a bit better than the Aptus-II 10
The screen is the same screen as in all the other Aptus-II backs
Still worth a spin IMO, I think it will impress you a lot
Best
Yair
Thanks Yair, that was swift :)
I hope it will impress me :) - I had just hoped for a bit more than just a new censor, however good it might be.
Any chance of getting a demo to Denmark ? yes I know it's Phase an HBlad land.... but I like the Leaf UI a lot - it really deserves a better LCD....
/adam
-
i´d like one for the Hy6/AFi.
I guess the people that have Hy6 and Afi-cameras are more eager to spend money for a new back so that the can have the best camera again and to have a wider view with the 40mm lens.
-
I don't doubt that was the case.
What was interesting was that despite the obvious poor image quality there was still a positive reaction to them on GetDP1. It seems that folk were seeing what they expected or wanted to see rather than what was actually staring them in the face.
Perhaps I'm missing something here and the folk over on GetDPI were looking at different versions or even the RAW files?
Keith that is the case i know the settings on the forum because we set them up for certain sizes and if bigger it will compress them down to the limits WE set . If he used a BBC code from the Gallery it would not have been the case and clearly I can prove this go here click on a thumbnail the preview will come up at 1200 pixels wide than click it again and magic it is 3000 pixels wide. Pick a thumbnail and try it http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/browseimages.php?c=9&userid= these are test images from the New 55mm LS lens I just bought. Now if you just upload as a attachment which Yair did there isa limit and if bigger it will compress them to the size limit. His crops also seem to appear larger than at 100 percent view. The night shot I agree something maybe off there, have to see this in real test conditions as well.
Next time Yair just let me know and I will personally walk you through the process on how to use the Gallery. BTW thanks for posting them
-
It seems that folk were seeing what they expected or wanted to see rather than what was actually staring them in the face.
Perhaps I'm missing something here and the folk over on GetDPI were looking at different versions or even the RAW files?
Yair showed me the RAW-files in Leaf Capture at Photokina. There was a still life scene shot with the Aptus II 12 and with the Aptus II 10... so the same scene shot with both the backs. Naturally the Apt.10 is also great but you could clearly see the superiority of the Apt.12... especially regarding moire and color artifacts.
At the moment I am not thinking about an upgrade. So I did not expect anything from the files or hoped to see magic things that are actually not there. The Apt.12 files simply looked great.
-
Guy, tho_mas, as I said, I don't doubt that the forum compression was at fault. I don't doubt that the Aptus-11 12 is capable of producing stunning results. My issue is with manufacturers and reps hastily uploading files and software that makes matters worse.
The other issue I have is with folk - such as those who commented favourably on the uploads to GetDPI - who, it would seem, see what they expect or want to see rather than what is in front of their face. The images as they appeared on GetDPI were particularly poor and yet the reaction to them was glowing.
Go figure.
That's why all proper scientific studies are done as double-blind studies, and why most discussions about IQ without quantifiable comparisons are largely worthless. Unfortunately double-blinding is difficult, infeasible or impossible when comparing IQ between cameras or systems. Even when quantification has been done (such as DXOMark), they are often dismissed with hand-waving - just look at any discussion about dynamic range.
Result being there's a lot of mis- and disinformation about IQ, and anyone genuinely trying to find out what the differences are get inundated with subjective opinion unsupported by evidence, or worthless views unhinged from reality.
-
Guy, tho_mas, as I said, I don't doubt that the forum compression was at fault. I don't doubt that the Aptus-11 12 is capable of producing stunning results. My issue is with manufacturers and reps hastily uploading files that don't do the products justice.
The other issue I have is with folk - such as those who commented favourably on the uploads to GetDPI - who, it would seem, see what they expect or want to see rather than what is in front of their face. The images as they appeared on GetDPI were particularly poor and yet the reaction to them was glowing.
Go figure.
ah, okay. So I did get you wrong. Apologize!
-
Guy, tho_mas, as I said, I don't doubt that the forum compression was at fault. I don't doubt that the Aptus-11 12 is capable of producing stunning results. My issue is with manufacturers and reps hastily uploading files that don't do the products justice.
The other issue I have is with folk - such as those who commented favourably on the uploads to GetDPI - who, it would seem, see what they expect or want to see rather than what is in front of their face. The images as they appeared on GetDPI were particularly poor and yet the reaction to them was glowing.
Go figure.
I think part of that glowing comments is more to do with how far they are cropped in. Too me they look more like at 200 percent than 100 which does look degraded. I do understand your comment completely. End of day we all know it will produce very well. Questions obviously will be noise , long exposures and the like. I do think we are all smart enough though to understand until we get these things in our hands or someone really sits down to run real tests that they are just nice to see at this point. I think the message is it is real it is here and you can buy one and in the MF world that is worth something than just a announcement and wait a year. LOL
Just one more message and I know folks want the real images and such but I do want to say that Yair, Doug , Steve and a host of other reps and such deserve a lot of credit in the first place being on the forums and helping people and giving us data on there products. This is a very confusing market and I know i spend a lot of my time explaining it on the forums to help people. Each OEM has all kinds of data that needs to get in our hands as users and i know these folks have helped me so I certainly don't want them to stop giving us the data. Where big boys and we know how to sort out the data. It may not be perfect but it is so much better than us guessing. Sorry went OT there but I always like to see what is going on regardless if it is just snapshots. It's all a puzzle and we just need to put all the pieces in place. Thanks
-
I am having trouble quoting, so
a) I can see how multiple shots at steps of 1/2 pixel width in each direction can increase resolution, but since each pixel still covers the 9 micron pixel size of the sensor, with lots of overlap, so I would expect less resolution than with 88 million photosites on the same sensor area, meaning 4.5 micron pixel spacing. Conversion between pixel counts and resolution get messier and messier!
b) Hassleblad is about to offer 200MP by that counting with an upgrade to its 50MP MS back:
http://www.imaging-resource.com/NEWS/1285307096.html
-
Is this a 5.4 or 5.7 micron sensor. I have not seen that data or I missed it
-
Is this a 5.4 or 5.7 micron sensor. I have not seen that data or I missed it
5.2
-
snip . . . . reps and such deserve a lot of credit in the first place being on the forums and helping people and giving us data on there products.
I agree that these people can be of help and two of the three I know pretty well and appreciated their assistance. Still be VERY realistic that these reps and some of their associates and associated forum owners come on "this" forum to have a presence and aggressively move product and/or services.
When they post photos to "move" product they should put their best foot forward.
Be honest, if a camera salesman/rep/technician posts a signature of a dozen brand names then it should be pretty obvious what the intent is.
BC
-
I agree that these people can be of help and two of the three I know pretty well and appreciated their assistance. Still be VERY realistic that these reps and some of their associates and associated forum owners come on "this" forum to have a presence and aggressively move product and/or services.
When they post photos to "move" product they should put their best foot forward.
Be honest, if a camera salesman/rep/technician posts a signature of a dozen brand names then it should be pretty obvious what the intent is.
BC
Won't see me arguing that. LOL
-
5.2
Thanks Thomas. I just never saw that posted for some reason
-
It's kind of funny that one of the main reasons for so many megapixels is for larger and larger prints, but with the CofC so tiny the DOF really goes down quite a bit and is razor thin, which is a factor with larger and larger prints, so perhaps in the end the gain is not all that much as it may appear...
-
I've been burned from viewing early samples that looked better than they really were (or what that product was truly capable of in standard conditions), and we've all seen early samples that look worse than they should. As a result, whenever I see samples posted, they barely register with me - these days I draw zero conclusions or assumptions from them. Instead, I look at the history of the sensor manufacturer, the history of their sensors, get a sense of the architecture of the new one, and take a look at the history of the chassis it resides in. Unless the manufacturer is touting something specifically different and new, my assumption is similar to previous, but perhaps a bit better, and then factor that in with the additional resolution. As a result, I draw no firm conclusions at all until we can shoot it and test it ourselves. And we're really looking forward to testing the Aptus-II 12.
Steve Hendrix
-
That makes a lot of sense Steve - so this back is really just like their others, just more resolution, and a lower price - headed in the right direction...
-
That makes a lot of sense Steve - so this back is really just like their others, just more resolution, and a lower price - headed in the right direction...
Well, sort of. I expect that it will have similar characteristics, though not identical. The Aptus-II 6/7/8/10 gained a bit more latitude ISO-wise compared to the Aptus 22/Aptus-II 5 sensor, for example. Not dramatic, just a nudge forward, but not identical either. I actually feel good about the 1.5 frames per second capture rate. I always had the feeling I got a slightly better file out of the slower shooting Aptus products than the S series. There's something to be said for not rushing the data out of the sensor, though it would be nice if there was a "fast mode" option.
Steve Hendrix
-
I actually feel good about the 1.5 frames per second capture rate.
I would too, but it's 1.5 seconds per frame ;)
-
I would too, but it's 1.5 seconds per frame ;)
Aarghh, I meant seconds per frame. While I would like a faster capture rate, what I meant was the slower capture rate as a positive is that perhaps they are not rushing the data off the chip, which compromises image quality. I would love an 80MP sensor at 1.5 frames per second (instead of 1.5 seconds per frame), but honestly, faster frame rates hasn't been a driving force behind most of our digital back sales from the past year. I personally prefer 1 shot per second as a minimum, but at 80MP's I'd rather squeeze every bit of quality out of the sensor.
Steve Hendrix
-
Due to high demand we have decided to make the Aptus-II 12 also in Contax mount. Availability is expected in January 2011.
So good news to all the Contax owners out there who wish to use their camera with this very special product.
Yair
-
Due to high demand we have decided to make the Aptus-II 12 also in Contax mount.
Does this, together with not offering it for the Hy6, indicate that there are substantially more Contax 645's in use that Hy6's, despite the Contax being discontinued far longer ago?
-
Does this, together with not offering it for the Hy6, indicate that there are substantially more Contax 645's in use that Hy6's, despite the Contax being discontinued far longer ago?
I suspect the Phase back on a Hy6 won't (ever) happen after Sinar & Rollei went out of their way to cut Phase completely off from the Hy6 body originally. And now that Phase owns Leaf, well...
-
I suspect the Phase back on a Hy6 won't (ever) happen after Sinar & Rollei went out of their way to cut Phase completely off from the Hy6 body originally. And now that Phase owns Leaf, well...
Well, Sinar left the Hy6 project and Rollei had never anything to do with the digital back. DHW is not Rollei and the only ones suffering are those that bought the Hy6. So PhaseOne can´t teach anyone a lesson...
-
I suspect the Phase back on a Hy6 won't (ever) happen after Sinar & Rollei went out of their way to cut Phase completely off from the Hy6 body originally. And now that Phase owns Leaf, well...
Jack,
Are you just regurgitating other posts from your own forum or other places without doing any fact checking or do you really know first hand that's how it went? Just asking because it appears that GetDPI is strongly aligned with Phase through a well known dealer.
Eric
-
I suspect the Phase back on a Hy6 won't (ever) happen after Sinar & Rollei went out of their way to cut Phase completely off from the Hy6 body originally. And now that Phase owns Leaf, well...
I doubt seriously if a multi national company is trying to punish a camera maker.
Not to divulge anything in confidence but I was told it's all about money. The Phase One buy in for the HY6 was large, the takeover of Mamiya was less, so I doubt if the Hy6 makers (whoever they were) tried to lock out anyone and if they did, that makes absolutely no business sense. I think what the HY6 makers tried to do was get contracts of volume, so they could go forward.
If I'm wrong, show me the e-mail that proves otherwise.
In regards to Leaf, I think you have to realize that Leaf owners view their products as Leaf products, not owned by Creo, Kodak or Phase and for the people that bought into the HY6, if they're left hanging, well I think we all know how they feel.
I don't get the medium format thing of brand/dealer worship and what one brand really has to do with the other.
I never understood the Phase vs. Hasselblad thing. Hasselblad has THE camera platform and wanted more digital back sales, so they devised a system where they could sell more digital backs. If you are a Leaf, Phase, Sinar owner with an H system it didn't really change anything, because H series cameras and lenses are everywhere.
One of the refreshing things about owning Contax is I never really worry about them. Nobody's gonna diss them, lock them out, or put out rumors because they're gone and if they do stop making backs, well I'll just buy a different camera.
But as far as "open" systems, in my mind none are that open unless they have universal mounts for the backs. If that was the original process 98% of this medium format conversation would disappear.
Regardless, there are about a dozen things "professional" photographers would like to see from camera makers, (in all formats) but punishment is not on the list.
IMO
BC
-
The Phase One buy in for the HY6 was large, the takeover of Mamiya was less, so I doubt if the Hy6 makers (whoever they were) tried to lock out anyone and if they did, that makes absolutely no business sense.
I think Jack referred to the time when the Hy6 was released... so quite some time before Rollei busted and before P1 bought Leaf (and therefore also the license to produce the AFi). At that time Rollei/Sinar/Leaf had no interest to make the camera available for P1 backs as they wanted to sell their own backs. Don't know if this is true... but that's the legend. At least Sinar was brainless enough to sell the arTec exclusively in Hy6 mount when it came out. So I wouldn't be too surprised if the legend is true (I mean the legend that P1 initially was not allowed to make a back in Hy6 mount).
-
I shoot Rollei and use both phase and ixpress (hasselblad) backs on the 6008 camera platform and have a real interest in what was going on with the Hy6. I've heard so many different stories from all kinds of people who claimed to know what was going on that I can only conclude that no one really knows including the businesses in question. It was probably all a big misunderstanding. ::)
So let's get those backs fit for the Hy6/AFi and 6008AF bodies now okay? Best camera, best optics and best backs sounds like a real win for everyone!
-
Best guess:
For whatever reason, either Leaf or Sinar (or both?) wanted to keep Phase out. Probably saw the MF market being them, Hassy and Phase, and wanted to protect 1/3 of the market... obviously in hindsight not the best of moves, but so be it. Wouldn't be the first time someone misjudged a sliding market. Remember the detailed post on how Hassy tried about 10 years ago to make a digital MF camera, and just couldn't get the timing and the technology together at the right time? Same thing with Rollei then as well.
With regard to Phase and the Hy6/AFI, I wouldn't think they would ever convert their back for a moribund system that they never had supplied with a back before. So that's not going anywhere...
Leaf, OTOH, might well touch this one, especially if they want to pick up a little bit of business. Not great sales (at the moment - of course, if the AFI ever went back into production, it might be different, but IMHO that is not too likely). But as it stands now, they know the engineering, they have working interfaces with the camera, they have the exterior cases (if not a supply of carcasses, they certainly built them once and it wouldn't be hard to get more...). Their last versions came with rotating sensors as well (AFI II 7 and 10). So upgrading those backs to an AFI II 12 wouldn't be a hard thing to do at all.
Probably a matter of a pre-sale commitment number (50 as a minimum guess, 250 as a max?).... just thinking out loud. No special knowledge here. Leaf could also do a "ship it in and we'll upgrade your back" if they were so motivated.
As to ownership of Intellectual property for the Hy6/AFI, I heard a rumor that it ended up with Kodak, when they bought Leaf. Of course, who knows what Phase got when they bought Leaf from Kodak. I dream that the IP rights for the Hy6 are in someone's desk drawer in Rochester, and the next time they do a big cleanout, they'll find their way back to where they came from, stamped "of no further interest to Kodak. Do as you wish....".
OK, its end of the day here. Sorry if this upsets anyone.
-
Jack,
Are you just regurgitating other posts from your own forum or other places without doing any fact checking or do you really know first hand that's how it went? Just asking because it appears that GetDPI is strongly aligned with Phase through a well known dealer.
Eric
By your tone, it sounds like you have a bone to pick over something that I'm not aware of... As for GetDPI being 'strongly aligned with *a* well known dealer', it would be far more accurate to say, "We have strong working relationships with *several* well known dealers across the US, and most of them participate regularly on our site." And you can quote me on that ;)
PS: To make things more clear even though you didn't ask specifically about this, we also have good working relationships with several equipment manufacturers throughout the world.
Cheers,
-
By your tone, it sounds like you have a bone to pick over something that I'm not aware of... As for GetDPI being 'strongly aligned with *a* well known dealer', it would be far more accurate to say, "We have strong working relationships with *several* well known dealers across the US, and most of them participate regularly on our site." And you can quote me on that ;)
PS: To make things more clear even though you didn't ask specifically about this, we also have good working relationships with several equipment manufacturers throughout the world.
Cheers,
What I asked was if there was any basis to your comments about Phase/Leaf's decisions WRT the Hy6/AFi. A lot of people are curious about this and what you posted sound more like conjecture.
-
Hassy classic was retired, Contax was retired, Hy6 was mothballed, Sinar M killed - do I see a pattern here? If I were a conspiracy theorist I would say that Zeiss lenses are bad for a company's health :)
Edmund
-
Yair,
Help us all get back on topic and post some more samples from the new back!
Thanks,
Eric
-
Jack,
Are you just regurgitating other posts from your own forum or other places without doing any fact checking or do you really know first hand that's how it went? Just asking because it appears that GetDPI is strongly aligned with Phase through a well known dealer.
Eric
Just for the sake of clarification, I don't think we've ever offered any definitive insight into what went down...
I have my own theories, but they're not worth a thing.
And I think as Mr. Cooter says, ultimately money and business plans that produce it (or attempt to) typically rule the day.
BJL - IMO there are certainly more Contax's in use than Hy6 cameras, even after being discontinued all these years. Also, behind Leaf's decision to offer Contax mount, probably less expensive to produce a limited run of Apti for a Contax than for an AFi/Hy6.
Obviously Contax as a digital back platform doesn't have the numbers of Mamiya/Phase or Hasselblad H (or even Hasselblad V), but it has been a very consistent and loyal base of digital back purchasers/upgraders.
Steve Hendrix
-
I don't doubt for a second that Phase taking over Mamiya was not a better idea than partnering with the HY6. The HY6 held great promise, but the deal with Mamiya gave phase more control over their own destiny and in the business world control is everything.
Now I'm not the biggest fan of the Mamiya 645 just because it isn't my cup - 0 - tea, but that doesn't mean that going forward it wasn't the best decision for the company and the cusotmer.
I also don't believe Phase presently dissed the HY6 out of retribution. That makes no business sense and would take away too much good will.
IMO
BC
Just for the sake of clarification, I don't think we've ever offered any definitive insight into what went down...
I have my own theories, but they're not worth a thing.
And I think as Mr. Cooter says, ultimately money and business plans that produce it (or attempt to) typically rule the day.
BJL - IMO there are certainly more Contax's in use than Hy6 cameras, even after being discontinued all these years. Also, behind Leaf's decision to offer Contax mount, probably less expensive to produce a limited run of Apti for a Contax than for an AFi/Hy6.
Obviously Contax as a digital back platform doesn't have the numbers of Mamiya/Phase or Hasselblad H (or even Hasselblad V), but it has been a very consistent and loyal base of digital back purchasers/upgraders.
Steve Hendrix
-
Yair,
Help us all get back on topic and post some more samples from the new back!
Thanks,
Eric
Nah this thread is too enjoyable as it is already...if I post images we'll be back to pseudo scientific remarks about astronomy, painterly effects and microscopic noise patterns...
We'll have more images taken by real photographers up soon, probably in a new thread...
Yair
-
While I would like a faster capture rate, what I meant was the slower capture rate as a positive is that perhaps they are not rushing the data off the chip, which compromises image quality. I would love an 80MP sensor at 1.5 frames per second (instead of 1.5 seconds per frame), but honestly, faster frame rates hasn't been a driving force behind most of our digital back sales from the past year. I personally prefer 1 shot per second as a minimum, but at 80MP's I'd rather squeeze every bit of quality out of the sensor.
Steve Hendrix
Oh Come On Steve! this is ridiculous. data is data. 1's and 0's. either you have it or you don't. Speed has nothing to do with it. Otherwise a Canon 1Dmk4 in Drive mode would give worse quality images than in single shot mode! Aaargh.
Reminds me of my Dad complaining that he couldn't get onto the internet because of all the 'young people' on there! He thought it was like a train or bus that had got filled up by all the queue jumpers, and there was no room left for old folks. (the desktop link on his computer was simply broken)
-
Oh Come On Steve! this is ridiculous. data is data. 1's and 0's. either you have it or you don't. Speed has nothing to do with it.
That's not correct. Read-out speed has an effect on noise. What's more, for CMOS devices it is possible to do multiple (non-destructive but time consuming) readouts and improve noise statistics and thus dynamic range.
Data is not data until it is quantized by the ADC!
Another question is whether the relatively low FPS are caused by read-out speed or by mechanical restrictions and the amount of data that needs to be off-loaded from the sensor array.
Cheers,
Bart
-
Oh Come On Steve! this is ridiculous. data is data. 1's and 0's. either you have it or you don't. Speed has nothing to do with it. Otherwise a Canon 1Dmk4 in Drive mode would give worse quality images than in single shot mode! Aaargh.
Actually, Steve and Bart are quite correct. Sensors convert light into electrical charge -- this is an analog quantity, and must be moved to the analog-to-digital converter (ADC) for conversion into a digital signal. It is very, very difficult to move this data without contaminating it with noise before it is converted to digital data.
Canon has many, many patents protecting the results of millions of dollars of research into sensor designs, which include moving this analog data quickly and cleanly to the ADC.
This initial stage where the information is stored as analog charge is the very same stage at which the temperature of your sensor visibly impacts the amount of noise in your image--as you point out, once the data is digital, it is immune to such effects. The effect that temperature has on noise you can experience yourself with any digital camera.
-
Oh Come On Steve! this is ridiculous. data is data. 1's and 0's. either you have it or you don't. Speed has nothing to do with it. Otherwise a Canon 1Dmk4 in Drive mode would give worse quality images than in single shot mode! Aaargh.
Steve's been at this a couple years and rarely speaks without something to back up his thoughts ;).
As pointed out by two nice fellow forum members there is in fact a relationship between speed and quality when it comes to read out and other elements of the data-path and overall system design. If/where there is a compromise to be made I'd also rather it be in the direction of quality rather than speed.
That said it'd be great if it could have been 1 fps - from shooting with many kinds of backs that is also my personal threshold for feeling "snappy". YMMV
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) ("doug@captureintegration.com")
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/")
RSS Feed: Subscribe (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/")
Buy Capture One at 10% off (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/")
Personal Work (http://"http://www.doug-peterson.com/")
-
Yep, I agree Doug. There's something nice about that 1fps threshold...
-
Hassy classic was retired, Contax was retired, Hy6 was mothballed, Sinar M killed - do I see a pattern here? If I were a conspiracy theorist I would say that Zeiss lenses are bad for a company's health :)
Edmund
Sony should be nervous.
-
Sony should be nervous.
I don't think there will be a successor to the 900/850.
Edmund
-
Hi just a quick question... since I have never seen a leaf back in person. Will this be suitable for outdoor / landscape work dealing with: damp / rainy environment, or dust blowing, cold or hot? From what I have read the back has holes / vents so would that mean it won't be good using it in a very windy/dusty environment? Thanks for the clarification.
-
Hi just a quick question... since I have never seen a leaf back in person. Will this be suitable for outdoor / landscape work dealing with: damp / rainy environment, or dust blowing, cold or hot? From what I have read the back has holes / vents so would that mean it won't be good using it in a very windy/dusty environment? Thanks for the clarification.
I've been shooting outdoors with Aptus backs since 2005 (and before that with Valeo backs) and have had no issues with wind, dust or damp conditions.
Solid rain is not recommended of course...for this I would get a rain cover.
Leaf backs are made in a country where the summer can be very hot and humid near the coast while in spring and autumn you get plenty of dust storms. Open vents were never an issue in these conditions.
Really cold weather affects battery behaviour. For this we make a DC-to-Firewire adapter that allows the back to run of of an external battery e.g. Quantum, which can be kept under your jacket.
Hope this helps
Yair
-
I've shot with them in Florida during a heat weave, water was literally streaming out of my body, I believe it was 34 degrees C, with a humidity of high in the 80's and the Aptus II7 performed great while my Applejuice just gave up, it wouldn't work for a few days.
Also did some shoots with it at the Salton sea in California and salvation mountain, very dusty and high 40's C. and it didn't stop working.
And of course in our own country we did some shoots last winter with below zero temps and it also worked like a charm, except the batteries. We use Panasonic replacements that run at least four times as long (but are a lot bigger).
I don't have experience with real rain, but to be honest my back did get his occasional splash of water (by accident) and it never gave a problem. However I strongly advise to not use it in the rain, but as Yaya mentioned there a rain cover would be wise.
-
Some very interesting points of view, some good points, and some not so good, but we each have our own needs and see things our own way, is our nature.
I however I do agreed that there is not only the need for Super High resolution Cameras, but that there is also the need to progress the evolution of design of the MF cameras, and the Leaf surely did a great Job bringing to market the new 12/12R at 80MP, even so I still very much miss a better LCD, amongst few things I have accustom to the past 20+ years of Photography on 35mm cameras, but I look forward to test out the Aptus 12, even so as I get ready to test out the Aptus 10/DF system and the Leica S2, I fill I might just simply very possibly go with the Leica S2, for the more familiar system, but I will be sure to give the Leaf Backs a ride for their money, as at FF MF 80MP offers a new ground of Resolution, Print Size and Detail.
At the end is the way each of us utilizes our gear, and what we utilize it for, that will make the main differences stand up or disappear, and make the additional Resolution Mater or not, and make the various aspects, of each system stand up or not vs. the other depending on the intended use.
Thanks for all you contributions, including links ;)
-
Well, a European Leaf rep. just told me, the Aptus II 12 will only be available in the R version for the users of a Habla V adapter .
The R seems to be roughly 8000 Euros more than the non-R ; I was quoted a sum for an upgrade/trade-in from my Aptus 75 ( Habla V) which is hilarious, due to this .
Can anyone shed some light on that - it's not correct information, is it ?
Yaya, Doug, anyone ?
-
Well, a European Leaf rep. just told me, the Aptus II 12 will only be available in the R version for the users of a Habla V adapter .
The R seems to be roughly 8000 Euros more than the non-R ; I was quoted a sum for an upgrade/trade-in from my Aptus 75 ( Habla V) which is hilarious, due to this .
Can anyone shed some light on that - it's not correct information, is it ?
Rotating versions will be available for the AFI and the V mounts. An R mount in the 645 bodies would not make any sense since the opening in the back of the camera is a horizontal 6x4.5. If you rotated the sensor on a 645 horizontal opening you'd just see the metal of the body at the top and bottom of the camera mount. A rotation on an AFI or V makes sense because you're rotating a horizontal 645 frame within a 6x6 rear-camera-opening; it can fit either vertical or horizontal.
US list pricing on the 12 and the 12R for V are the same at US$31,995
US list pricing for the AFI-12 (includes rotation) is US$33,490
Trade-up pricing for a 75 in the US will give you a good chunk of change more in trade-in-value for your 75 than you could get for it on the open market, and from that point of view is very fiscally attractive; as well you don't have to hassle with selling it with the chance/annoyance of buyer fraud, buyer rejection, or variable pricing on an auction.
I can't comment on European pricing and availability (meaning I don't know).
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/") | RSS Feed (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/")
Buy Capture One at 10% off (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/")
-
Hello Doug,
I do recall that you said something earlier about checking with DHW about their plans for the Afi platform and in general about their plans - did something come of that meeting?
I am considering the upgrade from the AFi-ii 7 and the trade-in offer I got here in Israel seems interesting, but I won't be able to see a demo for a while and it is still a substantial sum of money. I also wonder how much slower it is in practice in writing files to the back when shooting and how I would handle on a regular basis the greatly increased file size.
Many thanks for your interesting comments and updates.
Neil
-
Well, a European Leaf rep. just told me, the Aptus II 12 will only be available in the R version for the users of a Habla V adapter .
The R seems to be roughly 8000 Euros more than the non-R ; I was quoted a sum for an upgrade/trade-in from my Aptus 75 ( Habla V) which is hilarious, due to this .
Can anyone shed some light on that - it's not correct information, is it ?
Yaya, Doug, anyone ?
Hi there,
Price wise, there is absolutely no difference between the 12R (V mount) and the other mounts (Contax, Phase/ Mamiya and H), be it a trade-in from an A75 or a straight forward new back purchase
Hope this clarifies
Yair
-
Hello Doug,
I do recall that you said something earlier about checking with DHW about their plans for the Afi platform and in general about their plans - did something come of that meeting?
I am considering the upgrade from the AFi-ii 7 and the trade-in offer I got here in Israel seems interesting, but I won't be able to see a demo for a while and it is still a substantial sum of money. I also wonder how much slower it is in practice in writing files to the back when shooting and how I would handle on a regular basis the greatly increased file size.
Many thanks for your interesting comments and updates.
Neil
FYI -
http://www.captureintegration.com/2010/11/17/an-impressive-stable-of-technology/
Difficult to predict the future - really with many companies - but this is the uptake on the situation from our meetings, taken at face value, as presented.
Steve Hendrix
-
Sorry, I seem to not have been clear.
There is no non-R version of the Aptus II 12 in V-mount, is that correct ?
As I have no need whatsoever for the rotating sensor, but use the V-mount for my sliding back and Mamyia RZ adapter, it'd be quite annoying if that would be true .
The Aptus 12 (non-R), it still manually mounts in both vertical and horizontal orientation, I assume, like my Aptus 75 ?
Why would there be no V-mount option then ?
-
Sorry, I seem to not have been clear.
There is no non-R version of the Aptus II 12 in V-mount, is that correct ?
As I have no need whatsoever for the rotating sensor, but use the V-mount for my sliding back and Mamyia RZ adapter, it'd be quite annoying if that would be true .
The Aptus 12 (non-R), it still manually mounts in both vertical and horizontal orientation, I assume, like my Aptus 75 ?
Why would there be no V-mount option then ?
I don't understand. The Aptus-II 12R is for Hasselblad V mounts and also provides the ability to rotate the sensor without removing the back, and yet is the same price as the non-rotating Aptus-II 12 in Mamiya, Hassy H, and Contax mounts and that is a problem? I don't understand the problem.
Steve Hendrix
-
I don't understand. The Aptus-II 12R is for Hasselblad V mounts and also provides the ability to rotate the sensor without removing the back, and yet is the same price as the non-rotating Aptus-II 12 in Mamiya, Hassy H, and Contax mounts and that is a problem? I don't understand the problem.
Steve Hendrix
Wait a moment - the Aptus 12R and non-R are the same price ?
I now notice Doug has actually answered this above - it seems I got confused , my apologies ... ;)
The information I had so far was that the Aptus 12R would be considerably more expensive than the other version, thanks a lot for clearing this up .
-
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/leaf_aptus_ii_12.shtml
-
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/leaf_aptus_ii_12.shtml
The view from Michael's place;
Aptus-II 12, Schneider 43mm, Arca-Swiss Rm2D
Some folks said they cannot see the attachment (looks like Chrome doesn't like them) so here's a link (http://bit.ly/g3ESC1)
-
Interesting the screen GUI will be updated in Qtr. 2
-
Will the GUI be updated for the Aptus-II backs only, or also the older Aptus models?
-
Interesting the screen GUI will be updated in Qtr. 2
Indeed, but... with being a Phase One company one wonders why update looks like Windows XP when IQ backs have the simplicity of latest UI of Mac. When can we see a Leaf version of the interface on IQ????
- But make it better in a "Leaf way" please ;) (a.k.a. more histogram, exposure & graytone control, etc...) ;D
Thanks! 8)
-
Will the GUI be updated for the Aptus-II backs only, or also the older Aptus models?
Aptus-II only. The graphics are not finalised yet but we've implemented many improvements to the order of menus, number of clicks etc.
Yair
-
Will the GUI be updated for the Aptus-II backs only, or also the older Aptus models?
If you check the GUI of the Aptus or AFi, it still shows (c) by Kodak other than Leaf. I think it is financially correct for Leaf to develop its OWN GUI.
I do not think Leaf is able to provide IQxxx-like GUI because the Aptus (or AFi) is still based on Microsoft Windows CE (check the bottom of your Leaf digital back, it is basicaly a Windows CE device). Win CE is not a fast OS, but is easy to work on.
Is Phaseone digital back on Linux? ???
-
Difficult to predict the future - really with many companies - but this is the uptake on the situation from our meetings, taken at face value, as presented.
Steve Hendrix
Agreeeeed.
If we had known the future there would have been NO Hy6/AFi project, however it seems that we are NOW quite sure about the future of the Hy6 is NO Future at all. A Paradox?
Thing changes. That is it.
Xin
-
If you check the GUI of the Aptus or AFi, it still shows (c) by Kodak other than Leaf. I think it is financially correct for Leaf to develop its OWN GUI.
I do not think Leaf is able to provide IQxxx-like GUI because the Aptus (or AFi) is still based on Microsoft Windows CE (check the bottom of your Leaf digital back, it is basicaly a Windows CE device). Win CE is not a fast OS, but is easy to work on.
Is Phaseone digital back on Linux? ???
It interesting to read that Leaf backs are Win CE based, because unlike all else associated with Microsoft my Leaf back have given me zip zero problem. Thanks! ;D
Above said, could it be an expectation (or hope) by others than me that since Leaf is a Phase One company that technologies beyond sensors are shared in order to further products? Thus it seems wishful to hear of an Aptus-III in near future based on the new IQ technology but with a Leaf implementation. Frankly the UI of IQ backs blow me a way not as a gimmick but as very useful technology. Yet, perhaps as in the IQ backs it is too PhaseOne like for me...?
As I posted in another thread relating to IQ backs;
... I am curious of what more exposure information the IQ backs provide. By chance would following be available? ;
1) histogram with gridline for each stop captured (similar to zone system)
2) readout of max and min exposure value captured (in stops), and how this relates to neutral and to the highest and lowest exposure for which the specific back is capable (read at barely textureless white and black)
3) with live view is there any way to expand above and relate to measured values of max and min EV values of the scene, thus to assist in adjusting exposure more precise based on the scene?
Furthering above thoughts, the fact that focus mask is used in the IQ backs, could that perhaps be together with selection of an onscreen point for focus be furthered together with a sound for confirming zone of focus similar to Betterlight scanning backs do? Thus assisting enabling use of tech cameras for longer lenses in portrait situations hand held, and likewise enabling to more accurate focus based on live view on a view camera?
Above are ideas that pops to my mind merely, but seriously it would be really terrific if Leaf please would develop their own version of IQ like UI with Leaf like photographically useful features built in. It would extend the great tool that the Leaf backs already are today.
Thanks
Regards
Anders
P.S. The image quality provided by the Aptus-II 12 looks really great!!!! 8)