Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: peterurban on September 07, 2010, 01:22:14 am
-
I know many of you got excited about a Pentax digital medium format 'promises' in the past and then .... nothing. But this time it seems real as Nick Devlin's preview report and video interview indicate.
Of course the prospect of putting a 40Mpix camera without a low pass filter into our hands at around $ 10K is exciting - even more so that there is already an extensive lineup of lenses available.
So what do you think? Is this one going to be a winner?
-
Hi,
Certainly a winner as it sells well in Japan. Also an option for those in possession of 645 lenses. Up to date autofocus is promising and it also seems that build quality is good.
MFDBs offer more flexibility, on the other hand.
Price is attractive, at least for camera without system. Are lenses as good as Phase/Hasselblad/Leica? Time will show.
Puts the Leica S2 in perspective, sort of...
Best regards
Erik
-
Certainly a winner as it sells well in Japan. Also an option for those in possession of 645 lenses. Up to date autofocus is promising and it also seems that build quality is good.
Price is attractive, at least for camera without system. Are lenses as good as Phase/Hasselblad/Leica? Time will show.
Currently, it looks like a hit in Japan for sure. Many of these guys are coming from the film version, yet I don't hear major complains, this is the ultimate test around here. :)
It will
Cheers,
Bernard
-
Which raises an interesting point Bernard. Do Japanese bloggers, web sites and magazine complain about bad design and product flaws the way that we do, or are they too polite? :)
Michael
-
I know many of you got excited about a Pentax digital medium format 'promises' in the past and then .... nothing. But this time it seems real as Nick Devlin's preview report and video interview indicate.
Of course the prospect of putting a 40Mpix camera without a low pass filter into our hands at around $ 10K is exciting - even more so that there is already an extensive lineup of lenses available.
So what do you think? Is this one going to be a winner?
I just used a lot of ink & paper making a 22"x30" print at 240 dpi without ressing up. I down loaded a full size jpg made with a 645D and EXISTING MANUAL FOCUS 35mm f3.5 lens. Very impressive. The photographer's site allowing full res down loads has some fantastic work using a bunch of differnt old (MF & AF) lenses. His site is here:
http://ganref.jp/magazines/index/1/0/369
I have a shelf full of 645D lenses (7 of them); if the 645D were availavble here I would buy it today. Check out this gentleman's site. It is in Japanese, but you can make out the lenses used, f stop and shutter speed.
Best regards
Dave G
Beach Haven, NJ
www.modernpictorials.com
-
However good the camera might be, there is a definite stumbling block at that price (10,000 whatsits).
Frankly, for the money, I would rather have an M9 and that's still out of reach. Now don't misunderstand: as with Mercedes, BMW, small boats et al I can go write a good cheque. But that does not mean that I can really afford it! There is a wealth of difference (NPI) between the two propositions - the doing and the should I. In short, if it's pro, then of course you should do it; if for fun, then perhaps a dose of reality is what the doc should order.
No desire to spoil anyone's breakfast with this, but I do think that many just throw money away - even I have done so, but that's an age thing: the first one, concerning my 'blads, being a male menopause one; the later ones just desperation, buying solutions that really have to come from the mind instead. I was watching Bloomberg the other day, and somebody came up with a novel soundbite (novel to me) when he said that spending money should be as easy as running barbed wire through your fingers. I thought about that, and wish he'd said it a few years ago.
You really can learn from tv after all.
Rob C
-
However good the camera might be, there is a definite stumbling block at that price (10,000 whatsits).
Frankly, for the money, I would rather have an M9 and that's still out of reach. Now don't misunderstand: as with Mercedes, BMW, small boats et al I can go write a good cheque. But that does not mean that I can really afford it! There is a wealth of difference (NPI) between the two propositions - the doing and the should I. In short, if it's pro, then of course you should do it; if for fun, then perhaps a dose of reality is what the doc should order.
No desire to spoil anyone's breakfast with this, but I do think that many just throw money away - even I have done so, but that's an age thing: the first one, concerning my 'blads, being a male menopause one; the later ones just desperation, buying solutions that really have to come from the mind instead. I was watching Bloomberg the other day, and somebody came up with a novel soundbite (novel to me) when he said that spending money should be as easy as running barbed wire through your fingers. I thought about that, and wish he'd said it a few years ago.
You really can learn from tv after all.
Rob C
I never did see the fascination with people and money. If there something I desire, I buy it and enjoy life. I don't want to leave this world with a bank full of money (is that a hobby?).
I will leave this world with what I entered it with - Nothing.
I guess everyone is different ;)
-
I couldn't agree with that more ^
14bit and FP shutter put the Pentax out of my interest. 10K can buy you a Hasselblad H3DII-31 these days. Amazing system with incredible software and lenses.
-
I never did see the fascination with people and money. If there something I desire, I buy it and enjoy life. I don't want to leave this world with a bank full of money (is that a hobby?).
I will leave this world with what I entered it with - Nothing.
(Off Topic)
I agree . . . come in with nuthin', leave with nuthin".
BC
-
Which raises an interesting point Bernard. Do Japanese bloggers, web sites and magazine complain about bad design and product flaws the way that we do, or are they too polite? :)
Michael
Michael, what's your previous experience with that - do you find that Japanese bloggers are not critical enough by western standards? Any examples from the past?
I guess the interesting questions are ...
- Can the Pentax 645D compete with other MF offerings when it comes to image quality?
- Will it stand high enough above the upcoming high-end DSLRs in terms of IQ to justify buying into the system (I suspect the new Canon 1Ds will get close in terms of pixel count but will probably still utilize a low pass filter).
- How will the MF back market adjust in terms of pricing - I guess the flexibility of an open MF back system is still appealing to many ...
- And the $10M Question: Are the lenses good enough to unleash the potential of the sensor and compete with other MF systems (I know, somewhat connected to the first question in the list)
The reported high ISO capabilities are exciting for the MF world - I hope we'll see a more detailed test / report soon :)
-
Hi,
I wouldn't go the Leica route for image quality. If you need something small for travel, street shooting or just the joy, it's OK. But, regarding image quality it has always been that bigger is better. I'm pretty sure that the Pentax is solidly in the MF territory, with a decent autofocus. To me it seems that the Pentax may have the same image quality as the Leica S2 and best AF in the MF market for a third of the price, if you also put in some lenses. Seems like a good buy to me, especially if you have a couple of old lenses.
There are some indications that the old lenses may not be good enough to match the sensor, but they would probably still be usable.
On the other hand, I probably won't buy a Pentax 645. My Sony Alpha 900 is probably good enough for the prints I make. Also I usually want to be able to carry my equipment and I guess that MF gear would be heavier than the Sony/Minolta stuff I carry now. In my guess we would also need a heavier tripod to fully utilize the bigger format.
Best regards
Erik
-
Hi,
Just as a general observation, Pentax seems to realize the need for new lenses for digital. Both Phase and Hasselblad essentially developed new lens lines. The new lenses for the Hasselbald H# series outperform the old Zeiss lenses at least regarding MTF data presented by Hasselblad and it seems that the new lenses for Phase One deserve some respect.
Another question is alignment and focusing accuracy. In this area it is well possible that Pentax could have an advantage, because the back is fixed.
Best regards
Erik
Michael, what's your previous experience with that - do you find that Japanese bloggers are not critical enough by western standards? Any examples from the past?
I guess the interesting questions are ...
- Can the Pentax 645D compete with other MF offerings when it comes to image quality?
- Will it stand high enough above the upcoming high-end DSLRs in terms of IQ to justify buying into the system (I suspect the new Canon 1Ds will get close in terms of pixel count but will probably still utilize a low pass filter).
- How will the MF back market adjust in terms of pricing - I guess the flexibility of an open MF back system is still appealing to many ...
- And the $10M Question: Are the lenses good enough to unleash the potential of the sensor and compete with other MF systems (I know, somewhat connected to the first question in the list)
The reported high ISO capabilities are exciting for the MF world - I hope we'll see a more detailed test / report soon :)
-
I couldn't agree with that more ^
14bit and FP shutter put the Pentax out of my interest. 10K can buy you a Hasselblad H3DII-31 these days. Amazing system with incredible software and lenses.
I agree with Brendan, it'd be a hard sell to skip the Hasselblad. Smart move for them, selling the H3DII-31 at $10k.. I'm excited to see the Pentax, though, I had a hard time giving up my first DLSR, a "Pentax *istDS," to upgrade to full frame Nikon. Pentax is a creative company, giving good thought to user interface.
-
So what are our options around $10K?
Hasselblad H3D II - http://www.calumetphoto.co.uk/item/339-022B/
Pentax 645D - http://www.japantrendshop.com/pentax-645d-dslr-camera-p-833.html?currency=GBP&utm_source=googlebase_GBP&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=googlebase_GBP
Mamiya 645D with Leaf Aptus II 5 - http://www.calumetphoto.co.uk/item/010-00555A/
I'm sure there are other options...
Personally I went down the Phase one back & linhof techno for landscape work, those lenses new digital lenses make even the hasselblads look average.
Are there other comparable systems other than the ones listed?
-
Personally I went down the Phase one back & linhof techno for landscape work, those lenses new digital lenses make even the hasselblads look average.
I don't know if i'd go that far. The lenses are nice for sure, but the minimum aperture is different, which can matter if using flash in bright daylight for some folks... In most bodies the sync speeds are the same 1/800 (Not including the new 1/1600th.) And it's LS110 2.8 vs. HC100 2.2. Not really similar.
I think Hasselblad is still the manufacturer to beat in some lenses like the HC100 and HC35-90.
.02
-
Lenses
I'll be interested to study the issue of lens performance. I did a few shots with my AF 80-160 and I didn't see any obvious problems. This will require careful testing, but Pentax has always made really fine lenses at really attractive prices. Their "limited" line for the K-mount are a case in point. They have no trouble making good glass. The real attraction will be the new super-wide Bill talked about, and the weather sealing on new "D" series lenses.
The dedicated lenses, like the Digitars, are phenomenal. No one can seriously expect the Pentax lenses to touch them. But for most of us, the convenience of a point-and-shoot AF field camera way outweigh the quality differences. A little wind will level that playing field in a hurry!
Options for the Money
It's interesting how people's perception of value differs. For me, 35mm FF is not a rival to MF. Never will be. First of all, MF just has better IQ. How much better we can debate all day, and whether it is 'better enough' to matter for mass-repro applications is also a question mark. For fine-art prints, MF will always have some edge, especially a low ISO. More important for me in many cases is the shallower D-O-F, which give the 'look' people often talk about.
The 645D is really not a lot more camera physically than a 1DsIII or D3x. So it's more of a horses-for-courses question.
Equally, I would never buy a 'Blad because of the leaf shutters. They make the lenses so FREAKIN HUGE! When I got a trainer this spring I told him my goal was to get six-pack abs and be able to lift the 35-90 (not afford, just lift). Similarly, I despise Phocus. When I tried to use it last year it was phucking awful. (In fairness, I hear the new version is much better). I feel similarly about C1's "sessions". For me, out-of-camera DNGs are the cat's meow. Not that I am "right" about any of these preferences - for many the 'Blad or Phase might make a ton more sense (ie: any studio shooter). But based on private responses to the article and video, there are a LOT of photographers to whom to (dis)advantages of the Pentax are very attractive.
Price
The price is sweet, and dreadful. Ten grand for a camera?????? Only ten grand for a fully integrated MFDSLR!!!!!! Pick your side. There are enough profligate spenders and idly rich folks to keep the Pentax assembly plant humming for years. 'Blad and Phase have been about as responsive to the marketplace on price as they can be. I still think, however, that the 645D will represent truly market-leading value at the price. There is a real difference b/w the 31MP and the 40MP chip, and you get a really well thought out and user-friendly camera thrown in.
For many, many people, the top-end 35mm cameras, like the 5DII and A900 are everything they need for a fraction of the price. Personally, I think it's wonderful that people without ultra-deep pockets can gain access to that level of image quality. But that will never stop those who can afford it from seeking more.
Can't wait to shoot with it!
- N.
-
I don't know if i'd go that far. The lenses are nice for sure, but the minimum aperture is different, which can matter if using flash in bright daylight for some folks... In most bodies the sync speeds are the same 1/800 (Not including the new 1/1600th.) And it's LS110 2.8 vs. HC100 2.2. Not really similar.
I think Hasselblad is still the manufacturer to beat in some lenses like the HC100 and HC35-90.
.02
Brendan, since FearZeus referred to the "linhof techno", he was talking about view camera digital lenses (Rodenstock & Schneider) being better than the Hassy's, not the Phase/Mamiya/Schneider ones for the 645AFD/DF.
-
Brendan, since FearZeus referred to the "linhof techno", he was talking about view camera digital lenses (Rodenstock & Schneider) being better than the Hassy's, not the Phase/Mamiya/Schneider ones for the 645AFD/DF.
Woops. :) My inner fanboy coming out. Apologies.
-
If I'd start today…
if I'd need AF a lot I'd go for Hasselblad, as the recompose AF seems to work absolutely great.
if I'd like a platform to use for a 645 SLR and a tech camera I'd go for Phase or Leaf as Hassy backs need external power, which is annoying in the field.
In the latter case 645-camera-wise I'd go for Contax unless I'd need leaf shutter lenses. Due to the quality of the lenses, the simplicity of the camera and the fact that the Contax system provides anything you need (vertical grip, WLF …). If I'd need leaf shutter lenses the Phase camera would be the sole option left. I think in this case I'd skip the 645 camera and would only use the tech camera…
if I'd need high ISO I'd go Hasselblad or Pentax as this latest Kodak sensor seems to do very, very well at ISO800 and even ISO1600 (which begs the question why the S2 with the same sensor technology looks so aweful at mid range and higher ISO).
If I'd need clean base ISO I'd probably not go for Pentax (also not for S2).
If I'd need movements occassionally I'd go for Hasselblad due to the HTS adapter.
If I'd need movements very often I'd go tech camera (with Leaf or Phase).
If I had some legacy Pentax glass I'd go for the Pentax in a second.
-
I was a while ago. Not so anymore. We are about to see dslr's for over 32mp's now. In the case of Canon and Nikon, they are finally working on every level of their lens lines to extract every bit of resolution of these "tiny" 24x36m sensors. In a year or so the 5D3 will come out with this new sensor for less than 3Kusd. I could write for the rest of the evening about all the bells and whistles that every japanese dslr's maker do every 3 years to make those bodies exciting to own. It is a very tough act to follow for the considerable smaller MF manufacturers.
Every year I get more stocked on Canon top of the line glass. This alone makes it very hard for me to save money. MF cameras need to evolution at a faster rate or else. Just faster enough to survive while 24X36 sensors get so dense that real resolution increase would get next to impossible. Then, if time permits, and technology helps, a new glorious era for medium format photography will begin. I can assure guys that I would be delighted to see that happen. The Pentax 645D is a nice try, but a little too short. (imho)
The only thing that would get my heart pounding nowadays would be Hasselblad coming with a CFV39 back with an inner revolving sensor!
Now, that would be a smart move!
Eduardo
-
14bit and FP shutter put the Pentax out of my interest. 10K can buy you a Hasselblad H3DII-31 these days. Amazing system with incredible software and lenses.
I can understand FP, sorry but the 14 bits comments doesn't make much sense.
It has been proven many times that the 2 last bits do not contain any information in MF 16 bits files. They do not contribute the least bit to DR whether measured or real world (assuming there is a difference which looks more and more like a myth).
As far as these 2 bodies selling for the same price, you get a lot more with the Pentax if you are an outdoor shooter, the same kind of difference you get between a 1ds3 and a 50D.
Cheers,
Bernard
-
I couldn't agree with that more ^
14bit and FP shutter put the Pentax out of my interest. 10K can buy you a Hasselblad H3DII-31 these days. Amazing system with incredible software and lenses.
There are no cameras made that put out more than 14 bits of DR that I know of.
-
There are no cameras made that put out more than 14 bits of DR that I know of.
You mean 14 stops of DR, don't you?
-
if I'd need high ISO I'd go Hasselblad or Pentax as this latest Kodak sensor seems to do very, very well at ISO800 and even ISO1600 (which begs the question why the S2 with the same sensor technology looks so aweful at mid range and higher ISO).
Where do you get this idea from? I'm interested as I have been working with the S2 for a while now and at 320 (using LR3) it's very good. 20"x30" prints are totally noiseless. I have not seen the 'Blad to compare though.
-
(Off Topic)
I agree . . . come in with nuthin', leave with nuthin".
BC
The big difference in attitude comes along with the years. When I started off on my own, I never gave the period ten years ahead a thought; it was all about now. When the pension comes along (if it does) and the bank stops paying interest, capital dwindles, you think of the guy in the pinstripe suit standing at the corner of Sunset and Vine with his hat at his feet, and the placard around his neck, saying: my calculations were wrong.
The arrogance of youth is one of its principle attractions - for the young. Along with its facile fascination with the suicide solution.
;-)
Rob C
-
Bits and stops are essentially the same. A bit means a factor of two and a stop means a factor of 2.
So, 14 stops is 2^14 that is a range 1 - 16384 and 14 bits is a range from 1 - 16384.
These figures will on the other hand not be achieved, as they are limited by full well capacity, the number of photons a sensel can detect (actually electrons, to be precise) and the readout noise. Typical values may be 50000 for full well capacity and perhaps 15 electrons of readout noise. These values assumed DR would be around log(50000/15)/log(2), that is around 11.7 stops.
The higher figures given by DxO are possible because of downsampling or better read out electronics.
Much at the noise at low exposures (in the darks) come frome shot noise, variaton in the incident number of photons. Electronics cannot do much about this.
Best regards
Erik
-
The only thing that would get my heart pounding nowadays would be Hasselblad coming with a CFV39 back with an inner revolving sensor!
Now, that would be a smart move!
Eduardo
You mean like an Leaf Aptus-II 10R in a V mount which has an internally rotating sensor? You can buy one today :-).
Though its 56 megapixels, not 39 :-/.
[font="Arial"]Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) ("doug@captureintegration.com")
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/")
RSS Feed: Subscribe (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/")
Buy Capture One at 10% off (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/")
Personal Work (http://"http://www.doug-peterson.com/")
[/font]
-
There are no cameras made that put out more than 14 bits of DR that I know of.
Well i guess that is marketing mumbo jumbo by Hasselblad then? Maybe i'm like the many sheep before me that look at numbers, 16 vs 14, 16 sounds better to me. 14bit is what Canon's offer. I figured MF has more range than the 35mm 5DMKII's i've been using.
Am i wrong?
-
Well i guess that is marketing mumbo jumbo by Hasselblad then? Maybe i'm like the many sheep before me that look at numbers, 16 vs 14, 16 sounds better to me. 14bit is what Canon's offer. I figured MF has more range than the 35mm 5DMKII's i've been using.
Am i wrong?
Yes, unfortunately.
There is a myth of better DR in MF digital. It used be true, a fact; but when belief persists when the fact no longer does, then it becomes a myth.
8 or so years ago when DSLRS had high sensor readnoise (around 20 electrons), in the same ballpark as MFDBs, then it was true that MF digital had a substantial DR advantage.
But it is now a myth, largely because people (and indeed manufacturers' advertising blurbs) only look at one half of the DR equation: full well capacity. MF has larger pixels (for a given total pixel count), so it has larger FWC.
Ever since CMOS replaced CCD for DSLRs, they have been eating into that advantage, by driving down sensor readnoise; currently the best are only 2 or 3 electrons at mid-ISOs. But at mid-ISO you are utilising less of the FWC than at base ISO, so this renders the mid-ISO DR of DSLRs very good but not spectacular (usually 11-and-a-bit stops). At base ISO, you get the complete FWC but countering that, DSLRs still have stubbornly high low-ISO readnoise because the main contributor is the ADC, not the sensor itself. So again you usually get 11-and-a-bit or maybe 12 stops. All told, this means that DSLRs are around par with the MFDBs, which also have 12 +/- a bit stops.
However Nikon seems to have cracked the problem with ADC noise at low ISO in the D3x, and this explains its huge DR score (13.65 stops at base ISO) in the DXO tests.
So if you "figured MF has more range", you have to realise that there is no magic involved in MF digital. It obeys the same rules as 35mm and smaller digital. If or when Kodak and DALSA can get their sensor readnoise down from 11 or 13 electrons (their current best) to 2 or 3 electrons, then MF will regain the upper hand. It certainly can be that low for large CCDs, but it nearly always requires much longer readout times than photographers are likely to put up with. Astronomers are not as fussy about waiting ;).
-
Ever since CMOS replaced CCD for DSLRs, they have been eating into that advantage, by driving down sensor readnoise; currently the best are only 2 or 3 electrons at mid-ISOs. But at mid-ISO you are utilising less of the FWC than at base ISO, so this renders the mid-ISO DR of DSLRs very good but not spectacular (usually 11-and-a-bit stops). At base ISO, you get the complete FWC but countering that, DSLRs still have stubbornly high low-ISO readnoise because the main contributor is the ADC, not the sensor itself. So again you usually get 11-and-a-bit or maybe 12 stops. All told, this means that DSLRs are around par with the MFDBs, which also have 12 +/- a bit stops.
However Nikon seems to have cracked the problem with ADC noise at low ISO in the D3x, and this explains its huge DR score (13.65 stops at base ISO) in the DXO tests.
So if you "figured MF has more range", you have to realise that there is no magic involved in MF digital. It obeys the same rules as 35mm and smaller digital. If or when Kodak and DALSA can get their sensor readnoise down from 11 or 13 electrons (their current best) to 2 or 3 electrons, then MF will regain the upper hand. It certainly can be that low for large CCDs, but it nearly always requires much longer readout times than photographers are likely to put up with. Astronomers are not as fussy about waiting ;).
Well summarized! Another under-utilized feature of CMOS devices is that read-outs are non-destructive. This means that sensels can be read multiple times, even with different gain settings. That offers a lot of additional opportunities to reduce read-noise even further.
One possible reason, besides cost reduction and FPS bragging rights, why manufacturers are slow to offer the choice, is that optical glare will reduce the effective DR delivered to the sensor array to more limited levels (say 9 stops with good coatings and lens shading) than currently already accommodated.
Cheers,
Bart
-
So if you "figured MF has more range", you have to realise that there is no magic involved in MF digital. It obeys the same rules as 35mm and smaller digital. If or when Kodak and DALSA can get their sensor readnoise down from 11 or 13 electrons (their current best) to 2 or 3 electrons, then MF will regain the upper hand. It certainly can be that low for large CCDs, but it nearly always requires much longer readout times than photographers are likely to put up with. Astronomers are not as fussy about waiting ;).
That's great information ondebanks? Do yo have a real name?
While the DR may be the same, i'm quite happy still with leaf shutters and higher resolution. So it's not a total killer for me to find out that it has equal DR to a D3X. In fact, leaf shutters have changed things for me hugely, especially when using strobes outdoors.
While i don't doubt what you are saying here, it all sounds technical and righteous enough - i have to refute it on some level. That being, i was recently at a friends studio, he had a Leaf Aptus 7 i believe it was, he took a particular shot, and i took the same shot with my 5DMKII with similar settings, and the resulting image was HUGELY different. He had values in shadows that could be restored and some of his highlights were also not pure white. Meanwhile, the 5DMKII was not even close in being able to compete with that.
Perhaps that leads into the pixel size that you spoke of. Granted a 5DMKII may be no D3X, but it couldn't have all been in my mind.
-
... I could write for the rest of the evening about all the bells and whistles that every japanese dslr's maker do every 3 years to make those bodies exciting to own. It is a very tough act to follow for the considerable smaller MF manufacturers. ...
Eduardo, people that buy into MF digital do it for the image quality (an some maybe for the extra DOF) and not because they want face detection, direct nonsense print buttons and video games on the back screen of the camera - that's what we have iPhones and iPads for - don't we (please forgive my flash of sarcasm).
No, people that choose MF digital care about nothing but producing the best possible image quality (within their budget range) period.
Different shooting requirements will always point into different directions for camera solutions ....
- if you need a technical camera (movements) you need a dedicated back to put on it ...
- if you shoot people outside a lot you'll likely need fill flash and should not go without leaf shutters for higher sync speeds... and so on. Those are all individual requirements and warrant case by case decisions.
Obviously, top-end digital lenses for technical cameras will do better then any SLR based lenses - the exclusion of a mirror box simple allows for a better optical path but agin, that's not in question here.
The question on this threat should be imho is the Pentax 645D the price-breaker that gives us a modern, ergonomic focal plane shutter based system that delivers 40Mpix quality equivalent to it's competition at around $10k?
Or are there any corners cut that lets us end up with a camera system that shows all the (sensor) specs but ultimately can't compete with its (currently) more expensive counterparts on IQ?
-
Agree Peter. How I view the Pentax is it is just like the ZD with improvements of course but a good entry level cam into the MF world. It's a good beginning but certainly i would not give up my Phase for it and if I was in the market to buy than Hassy or Phase over it because of my needs. I ultimately think SYSTEM and not parts but from a Pro's POV we have to think like that as we have many requirements and for some of us many different types of work that need different functions and parts to support us. Just like the S2 for me there are some holes in these systems via software, tethering and such. But for a lot of folks this may be the ticket to MF so end of day this coming to market maybe a good thing for the industry even for it's competitors. People move up all the time to better systems and once they are in MF it is not easy IQ to get out of it at least for me it is not. No way
-
Rob: You are absolutely right in my case. I don't need a MF digital camera. I am not a pro. But I sell enough of my work to support my habit, and then some. When I shot 35mm film and made 16"x20"s in my darkroom, I also shot 645 and 6x7 and the resulting quality differences were striking. I am asuming the quality diffences in digital to be similar (I use 1DSIII and A900 equipment). Regarding how we spend our money....we are all different. My Dad died when I was three. I went to Drexel University for 12 years at night to earn BS and MS degrees. My wife and I are proud of the fact that we raised three sons, and financed 7 college degrees for our family. I am 73 years old....guess what? It's my time to buy my toys. ::)
Best to all....
Dave
www.modernpictorials.com
However good the camera might be, there is a definite stumbling block at that price (10,000 whatsits).
Frankly, for the money, I would rather have an M9 and that's still out of reach. Now don't misunderstand: as with Mercedes, BMW, small boats et al I can go write a good cheque. But that does not mean that I can really afford it! There is a wealth of difference (NPI) between the two propositions - the doing and the should I. In short, if it's pro, then of course you should do it; if for fun, then perhaps a dose of reality is what the doc should order.
No desire to spoil anyone's breakfast with this, but I do think that many just throw money away - even I have done so, but that's an age thing: the first one, concerning my 'blads, being a male menopause one; the later ones just desperation, buying solutions that really have to come from the mind instead. I was watching Bloomberg the other day, and somebody came up with a novel soundbite (novel to me) when he said that spending money should be as easy as running barbed wire through your fingers. I thought about that, and wish he'd said it a few years ago.
You really can learn from tv after all.
Rob C
Rob You are absolutely right in my case. I don't need a MF digital
-
You mean 14 stops of DR, don't you?
Since the sensors are linear, then in RAW output, 14 stops ~= 14 bits.
-
Agree Peter. How I view the Pentax is it is just like the ZD with improvements of course but a good entry level cam into the MF world. It's a good beginning but certainly i would not give up my Phase for it and if I was in the market to buy than Hassy or Phase over it because of my needs. I ultimately think SYSTEM and not parts but from a Pro's POV we have to think like that as we have many requirements and for some of us many different types of work that need different functions and parts to support us. Just like the S2 for me there are some holes in these systems via software, tethering and such. But for a lot of folks this may be the ticket to MF so end of day this coming to market maybe a good thing for the industry even for it's competitors. People move up all the time to better systems and once they are in MF it is not easy IQ to get out of it at least for me it is not. No way
Sure, the Pentax is not a solution for you if you need thethering, leaf shutters, to be able to use the back on a view camera or T/S lenses.
Other than that it appears to be to be equal or superior to anything else 40MP class MF out there, and that would include image quality. There is a huge difference between Mamiya and Pentax here, Pentax has a lot of experience in digital (read tens of M$ of investement over 10+ years and very skilled engineers inhouse in a job market place where there are many more skilled engineers) and is able to amortize their digital research over many more bodies. They are also part of the powerful Hoya group known for its leadinf research in optics. If the 645D proves to be a commercial succes (they are off with a very good start), Hoya will GO more investements targetting the MF market.
All that being considered, It would in fact be surprising if the MF copanes were able to keep up with them in image quality giving the same sensor is used.
Cheers,
Bernard
-
While i don't doubt what you are saying here, it all sounds technical and righteous enough - i have to refute it on some level. That being, i was recently at a friends studio, he had a Leaf Aptus 7 i believe it was, he took a particular shot, and i took the same shot with my 5DMKII with similar settings, and the resulting image was HUGELY different. He had values in shadows that could be restored and some of his highlights were also not pure white. Meanwhile, the 5DMKII was not even close in being able to compete with that.
Perhaps that leads into the pixel size that you spoke of. Granted a 5DMKII may be no D3X, but it couldn't have all been in my mind.
The 5DII is rather limited in DR, having between 1-2 stops less than the D3x, due especially to pattern noise in the shadows. It's also older technology, about four years old now.
-
Other than that it appears to be to be equal or superior to anything else 40MP class MF out there, and that would include image quality. There is a huge difference between Mamiya and Pentax here, Pentax has a lot of experience in digital (read tens of M$ of investement over 10+ years and very skilled engineers inhouse in a job market place where there are many more skilled engineers) and is able to amortize their digital research over many more bodies. They are also part of the powerful Hoya group known for its leadinf research in optics. If the 645D proves to be a commercial succes (they are off with a very good start), Hoya will GO more investements targetting the MF market.
All that being considered, It would in fact be surprising if the MF copanes were able to keep up with them in image quality giving the same sensor is used.
Cheers,
Bernard
Wow. It's a little premature to make any of these claims.
-
The D3X is an amazing bit of gear and IMHO, hits a sweetspot of price vs performance, much like the 5D2, just further up the scale. If I wasn't committed to Canon for this style of camera I'd have one in a flash.
I agree anecdotally about the DR being excellent, not having measured it on a test bench, but I do NOT see more DR than MFDBs. Visually on a monitor, and in 20"x30" prints, they are much the same. I'd even go so far as to suspect Nikon of some clever 'under the hood' NR since the really deep shadow textures have a subtle plasticity to them that the S2 does not.
The only samples I have seen from the Pentax were underwhelming but I'm keen to see more. I used to use the classic Pentax67 and the lenses were simply stunning so that won't be a limiting factor.
-
Wow. It's a little premature to make any of these claims.
Well, I have seen many 645D samples and the compromise between micro detail and moire control was excellent, but I do not own one anymore so other opinion would be most welcome.
I don't know who is going to do a solid comparison between the 645D and the other MF bodies in terms of pixel peeping image quality, since nobody has done that recently between the other backs themselves, but I sure hope that this comparison be done. Best in class DSLRs like the soon to be released 1ds4 should also be part of the comparison.
Cheers,
Bernard
-
And double the price. :-(
I knew already about this back. Actually I commented it before to Yair while asking him about the possibility of Leaf making this type of back with a cheaper 48X36 sensor competitve to Hassie CFV39 but never got any response. So I asume 2 things: There are no plans. because is not fisible or it is Leaf's best kept secret! :-)
Best regards
Eduardo
You mean like an Leaf Aptus-II 10R in a V mount which has an internally rotating sensor? You can buy one today :-).
Though its 56 megapixels, not 39 :-/.
[font="Arial"]Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) ("doug@captureintegration.com")
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/")
RSS Feed: Subscribe (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/")
Buy Capture One at 10% off (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/")
Personal Work (http://"http://www.doug-peterson.com/")
[/font]
-
I've been trying to get hold of a Pentax but the distributors have not been forthcoming with one. I'll keep trying.
-
There are tons of 645D samples here:
http://ganref.jp/items/camera/pentax/1865/photo (http://ganref.jp/items/camera/pentax/1865/photo)
-
Sure, the Pentax is not a solution for you if you need thethering, leaf shutters, to be able to use the back on a view camera or T/S lenses.
Other than that it appears to be to be equal or superior to anything else 40MP class MF out there, and that would include image quality. There is a huge difference between Mamiya and Pentax here, Pentax has a lot of experience in digital (read tens of M$ of investement over 10+ years and very skilled engineers inhouse in a job market place where there are many more skilled engineers) and is able to amortize their digital research over many more bodies. They are also part of the powerful Hoya group known for its leadinf research in optics. If the 645D proves to be a commercial succes (they are off with a very good start), Hoya will GO more investements targetting the MF market.
All that being considered, It would in fact be surprising if the MF copanes were able to keep up with them in image quality giving the same sensor is used.
Cheers,
Bernard
I would be real careful of the word superior. Heard the same words about the S2 and sorry superior is not the word I would even say anywhere about it and I did a nice long test with it. Also please get the thoughts of the ugly Mamiya off your brain. It is NOT the case at all just grab a few D lenses and actually go out and shoot them.
Sorry Bernard the Pentax is completely unproven and untested against anything so far. Maybe hold onto those comments for a time until someone actually puts this in use with comparable product. Heard the same hype from Leica. Marketing does not make images
-
There are tons of 645D samples here:
http://ganref.jp/items/camera/pentax/1865/photo (http://ganref.jp/items/camera/pentax/1865/photo)
Unless I am missing something these are all 3000px wide samples, not full res and therefore meaningless. Much like the samples posted on the GetDPI forum - all hand held! Waste of time.
-
Unless I am missing something these are all 3000px wide samples, not full res and therefore meaningless. Much like the samples posted on the GetDPI forum - all hand held! Waste of time.
I don't know if you've seen these before ... but here are some full size jpegs either straight from camera or converted from ACR.
http://ganref.jp/items/camera/pentax/1865 (http://ganref.jp/items/camera/pentax/1865)
-
Sorry Bernard the Pentax is completely unproven and untested against anything so far. Maybe hold onto those comments for a time until someone actually puts this in use with comparable product. Heard the same hype from Leica. Marketing does not make images
You need to be more specific, Guy ... when it comes to camera, the Pentax is lightyears ahead of Leica, Hassy or Mamiya - it is really a shame that none of them can manage more than ONE AF point in AD2010 ;D
-
I would be real careful of the word superior. Heard the same words about the S2 and sorry superior is not the word I would even say anywhere about it and I did a nice long test with it. Also please get the thoughts of the ugly Mamiya off your brain. It is NOT the case at all just grab a few D lenses and actually go out and shoot them.
Sorry Bernard the Pentax is completely unproven and untested against anything so far. Maybe hold onto those comments for a time until someone actually puts this in use with comparable product. Heard the same hype from Leica. Marketing does not make images
Guy, on a few occasions you have commented that the Pentax is a possible stepping stone to a superior mfdb like a PhaseOne- always implying of its inferiority to the current established options.
Since as you say the Pentax is 'completely unproven', i believe you are also guilty of making premature conclusions.
-
Come on MF digital newbies. I know you are excited about the possibilities, but maybe you should wait til you can put one in your hands before you make outrageous statements.
-
Well that could be said sure but Pentax has not done MF digital before either so which way should we lean better than anything out there. Leica said that too and it is not the case. Superior is a really bad word to use , I never use that in comparing any product. Better than more feature laden or better software packages are a much better way to describe things. People hang on every word and superior is very misleading. Phase is not superior to anything either it is better than some equal to others same with Hassy. Pentax is a great stepping stone to MF but without testing with comparable cams of the same sensors and sizing than it really is a non factor until it is proven to be equal too or better than. I'm not saying it is or it is not but lets stop putting the chicken before the egg. It's a very dangerous road and as a reviewer myself i am really carefully on these type of words because readers can get bad data and i hate bad data.
Also you said to the current established options which is a good way to say Phase and Hassy. Pentax and Leica have a long way to go here in regards to building a complete system of parts and software and really until that comes about it is less proven as a system. We always talk about buying this cam or that cam. What we really should be saying is buying this system or that system. A camera is only one piece of a system which has many parts to it. BTW hate that word inferior also. LOL
Reality is once you hit the MF sector all these cams can produce a good image. What some are lacking are complete systems , software and things of this nature and until they build that up than we really should be careful how we label things. The Pentax looks good actually it looks really good from my seat but until it gets under the microscope and in the field it simply is not a proven system and that is not a dig but reality. I honestly think it will be good and good for the market but we have to watch our enthusiasm too just like the S2 and it's Leica fans. It simply has some shortcomings and these things like the Pentax and Leica need to age some. Does not mean they are bad just that it will take time and yes it will take a lot of time to the established old dogs sitting on the porch like Hassy and Phase. Both with great software , lenses, accessories, product support and service and also well established in the rental markets. Not to mention Leaf and Sinar in this which i always forget to do.
Honestly I'm not making any premature conclusions but saying just hold on lets get these things in the field under the microscope and see what is going on before we start declaring anything better than or anything at all. End of the day it is the brain behind the viewfinder that ultimately counts but the tools we work with are important in function and making life easier to work with. Which tools are better at that are really individual decisions all we can do is figure out what works well and what does not.
-
Come on MF digital newbies. I know you are excited about the possibilities, but maybe you should wait til you can put one in your hands before you make outrageous statements.
Yep, already played with one actually. In terms of usability/please of usage it is in the same class as a high end DSLR. I have not found the time to shoot with one yet unfortunately.
Anyway, I won't buy one for various reasons, the main one being the lack of live view, but it would clearly be the one for my outdoor usage if I were to invest into MF. Frankly speaking, the battery issue hold in cold weather is enough to make the difference for me.
When you camp at -15C for 2 nights in a row these things matter.
Cheers,
Bernard
-
... Regarding how we spend our money....we are all different. My Dad died when I was three. I went to Drexel University for 12 years at night to earn BS and MS degrees. My wife and I are proud of the fact that we raised three sons, and financed 7 college degrees for our family. I am 73 years old....guess what? It's my time to buy my toys. ::)
Best to all....
Dave
www.modernpictorials.comRob You are absolutely right in my case. I don't need a MF digital
Good for you Dave! We've got to do want we are passionate about while we still can do it. While retirement planning is important it is also critical to contemplate if a long boring live with a perfectly save retirement is worth living. For some it is and for others it isn't. Not even thinking about the possibility of a bus coming along tomorrow and ending the wait for your passion in the most uncomfortable way - and forever.
Just sayin.
-
Yep, already played with one actually. In terms of usability/please of usage it is in the same class as a high end DSLR. I have not found the time to shoot with one yet unfortunately.
Anyway, I won't buy one for various reasons, the main one being the lack of live view, but it would clearly be the one for my outdoor usage if I were to invest into MF. Frankly speaking, the battery issue hold in cold weather is enough to make the difference for me.
When you camp at -15C for 2 nights in a row these things matter.
Cheers,
Bernard
Bernard,
It's odd that you are talking up this camera when you have no interest in buying it because it doesn't have the specs you need. It limits you for wide angle because of the sensor size. Who knows how it performs for long exposure. The fact that it might have a better AF is not a selling point for a landscape photographer.
Maybe I am missing something...
-
Are there any resolution / quality tests / comparisons available on the Pentax MF lenses?
BTW Here are a view videos about the camera that I found online ...
Photo show rep presenting the cam http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KF310u4vmts 2.23min
Someone handling the cam on the show floor http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llLddJ4_c88&feature=related 59sec
In french http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4ul6aSXf28&feature=related 3.19min
-
It's odd that you are talking up this camera when you have no interest in buying it because it doesn't have the specs you need. It limits you for wide angle because of the sensor size. Who knows how it performs for long exposure. The fact that it might have a better AF is not a selling point for a landscape photographer.
Maybe I am missing something...
Hey Jonathan,
Me being not interested in buying a camera at this point of time doesn't mean I am not interested in this camera. :-) The 645D is very interesting, in itself and as the first of Pentax digital MF cameras. I would probably buy the Pentax if:
- I was not in the middle of a large project that limits my ability to spend cash on items that I don't absolutely need,
- It had live view, the lack thereof makes it less useful than my current camera in actual shooting situations.
Other than that it is IMHO the closest thing to the perfect landscape camera. I would not be impacted by the temporary lack of wide since 100% of my production wide imagea are stitches.
As far as long exposures go, it doesn't appear to be a problem from echoes I have heard in Japan, but this point might need doule checking indeed.
I guess that what I am telling you is that I'll probably line up to get one of the 645D MKII when it does offer live view. :D
Cheers,
Bernard
-
Are there any resolution / quality tests / comparisons available on the Pentax MF lenses?
There aren't many that I'm aware of which is not too surprising since Pentax MF had long been given up as dead. Here's one concerning the 645 35mm FA:
http://www.16-9.net/lens_tests/pentax645_fa35mm.html
The 35mm FA is a difficult lens to find as many have been adapted for use on DSLRs.
The same site makes the following statement about using Pentax 645 lenses on a Canon body using a Zörk adapter (of course he was selling the lenses, so a grain of salt is recommended).
“This is simply the best way to obtain maximum shift movements on a Canon digital body. The Zörk Panoramic Shift Adaptor permits movements of up to 22mm, and is the only system designed for DSLRs to accommodate parallax-free stitching. The lenses I'm selling with it have been chery-picked for ultimate performance: the Pentax FA35 is just the greatest medium format retrofocus wide angle ever. The SMC-A 55mm f2.8 is a cracking manual focus Pentax 645 lens that outperforms the Hasselblad 50mm CF. And the butter smooth manual focus 150mm f3.5 is even better at distance than the Hasselblad, Mamiya and Pentax Macro 120mm lenses. In my opinion (and that of Zörk in Germany), the Pentax 645 range is the best array of MF lenses ever, with a beautiful, Zeiss-like drawing style and bottomless resolution. Until a digital Pentax 645 option arrives, this remains the best way to unlock that potential in the digital realm"
The site has an interesting, if unrelated, discussion of adapting a number of lenses to Canon bodies:
http://www.16-9.net/lens_tests/compatible.html
FWIW, my personal experience with about 20 Pentax MF lenses is that there are no dogs and some are outstanding. The 645 35mm and 120 macro are superb as are the 67 300mm ED, 400mm ED and the 55-100mm zoom. Of the lenses I’ve used, the only one with serious shortcomings is the 67 35mm fisheye.
-
In case it's interesting, I posted a blog a couple weeks ago discussing $10K MF options... The Hasselblad H3DII-31 is currently the best MF deal around. It's an awesome machine. I've got an H4D-40 in the studio this week for testing, it sells for around $20k, and is only incrementally improved from the H3DII-31. IMHO, the historically low "Hassy" buy in with the H3DII makes the D3X a hard sell.. (and I Love Nikon!)
http://mattbeardsleyblog.com/2010/08/12/entry-level-digital-medium-format-and-the-10k-hasselblad-h3dii-31/
-
Maybe Pentax should dig out some of their old commercials like this one ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gWDewkkkAI
;-)
-
Wow that is old. ^
Yeah i have to agree with Matt, i'm very happy with the H3DII-31. That along with Phocus makes for a great system. I just don't see what i'm missing out on with the 645D. Not saying there isn't anything, but nothing is sticking out at me.
-
Wow that is old. ^
Yeah i have to agree with Matt, i'm very happy with the H3DII-31. That along with Phocus makes for a great system. I just don't see what i'm missing out on with the 645D. Not saying there isn't anything, but nothing is sticking out at me.
Yes the H3DII-31 is a fine camera but it may be stating the obvious to say that the 645d is more comparable to the H4D-40 sensor wise.
Your also missing out on the one thing that all MFD users complain about- the lac of a decent rear display. The one on the H3dII series is not a strong point. Other than that you have the weather sealing and of course more affordable lenses, all of which may not be relevant to some users.
-
Other than that you have the weather sealing and of course more affordable lenses, all of which may not be relevant to some users.
If you don't like to limitations of your camera to dictate where and in what conditions you can shoot, then the Pentax is simply in a different class.
Landcruiser vs Ferrari.
Except that both can do the same speed.
Cheers,
Bernard
-
If you don't like to limitations of your camera to dictate where and in what conditions you can shoot, then the Pentax is simply in a different class.
Landcruiser vs Ferrari.
Except that both can do the same speed.
Cheers,
Bernard
how 'bout a Lambo instead ... ;)
(http://cache.jalopnik.com/assets/resources/2008/04/Lamborghini-LM002-Red.jpg)
-
If you don't like to limitations of your camera to dictate where and in what conditions you can shoot, then the Pentax is simply in a different class.
I have no idea what you are talking about.
-
how 'bout a Lambo instead ... ;)
(http://cache.jalopnik.com/assets/resources/2008/04/Lamborghini-LM002-Red.jpg)
I love that car!
Cheers,
Bernard
-
I have no idea what you are talking about.
Again, have you ever tried winter camping 2 nights in -15C - -20C with your Hassy?
Well, I like to do that and see my camera fully functional when I wake up from a good night of cold sleep. I don't like to keep my batteries in my sleeping bag, hard spots make it hard to sleep.
Chances are that my camera got wet last night because my frozen hands had not shut properlly by camel bag that leaked a bit at night before freezing solid. I still want my camera to work the next morning.
Not to mention the fact that the edge of my plastic shovel did collide with the camera when I switched sides at 2AM, and I would prefer the delicate paint on my camera not to shot too much of a dent when I wake up.
I did own a Hassy H1 a few years back, I don't think it fits the bill... :) Would the Pentax do? I have not tried one yet in these conditions, but it has been speced to take such beatings, just like a 1ds3 or D3x.
Cheers,
Bernard
-
Again, have you ever tried winter camping 2 nights in -15C - -20C with your Hassy?
Well, I like to do that and see my camera fully functional when I wake up from a good night of cold sleep. I don't like to keep my batteries in my sleeping bag, hard spots make it hard to sleep.
Chances are that my camera got wet last night because my frozen hands had not shut properlly by camel bag that leaked a bit at night before freezing solid. I still want my camera to work the next morning.
Not to mention the fact that the edge of my plastic shovel did collide with the camera when I switched sides at 2AM, and I would prefer the delicate paint on my camera not to shot too much of a dent when I wake up.
I did own a Hassy H1 a few years back, I don't think it fits the bill... :) Would the Pentax do? I have not tried one yet in these conditions, but it has been speced to take such beatings, just like a 1ds3 or D3x.
Cheers,
Bernard
I'm not sure the elements would be much different between an H1 with back and a sealed camera like the pentax. I think your location might have you a bit biased towards a camera with a goofy viewfinder. It looks like it would break off.
I feel like if I'm going to spend money on a MF digital camera it should have the ability to adapt to various types of photography. You must spend a lot of time in -15C - -20C weather every year.
-
I feel like if I'm going to spend money on a MF digital camera it should have the ability to adapt to various types of photography. You must spend a lot of time in -15C - -20C weather every year.
Nope, but 4 of my 10 best images last year were shot in these conditions.
Cheers,
Bernard
-
.....i have to agree with Matt, i'm very happy with the H3DII-31. That along with Phocus makes for a great system. I just don't see what i'm missing out on with the 645D. Not saying there isn't anything, but nothing is sticking out at me.
I suspect your statement reflects your photographic interests, but for those of us who want a camera for use in the wilderness, there are some compelling differences:
1. Operating temperature range (as noted by Bernard)
2. Dust sensing and removal.
3. Weather sealing.
4. The LCD
5. Electronic leveling
6. User selectable 11-point AF (not a big deal for me, but it is for some).
I think Pentax knows its market. My concern about this camera is the support network. Pentax (or should I say Hoya) has outsourced repairs in the US and closed other facilities worldwide. I’m planning a trip to Japan where I intend to purchase a 645D with full realization that any repairs will require a return trip for the camera; I would be much happier if Pentax had maintained its support.
-
"a newly designed shutter unit with a top shutter speed of 1/4000 second that can withstand as many as 50,000 shutter releases"
this is worrisome. 1/4 the shutter life of it's competition?
-
Anyone who cares about MF should be, if not excited, then at least intrigued by this camera. The sniffiness of some comments on this thread smacks of churlishness to me. A weather-sealed 40Mp MF with (reportedly) immaculate build and ergonomics, backed by best-in-class electronics. Come on, people, some respect surely?
-
"a newly designed shutter unit with a top shutter speed of 1/4000 second that can withstand as many as 50,000 shutter releases"
this is worrisome. 1/4 the shutter life of it's competition?
You mean it's 35mm competition, or its medium format competition? I would think the lower mass of the 35mm focal plane shutter makes it more suitable for heavy duty use.
-
Anyone who cares about MF should be, if not excited, then at least intrigued by this camera. The sniffiness of some comments on this thread smacks of churlishness to me. A weather-sealed 40Mp MF with (reportedly) immaculate build and ergonomics, backed by best-in-class electronics. Come on, people, some respect surely?
When you have a forum of people that buy, use and of obviously sell 20, 30 and $40,000 cameras, of course your gonna get some blowback when a camera comes out for $10,000 that does more than those other systems, actually gives the features most of us have virtually begged for, for 7 years.
IMO, the the 645D would tether reliably with a stable program like DPP, then it would be game, set, match. I'd buy one just because of the lcd.
Regardless, it's gonna open up a whole new market for medium format.
BC
-
Again, have you ever tried winter camping 2 nights in -15C - -20C with your Hassy?
Not to mention the fact that the edge of my plastic shovel did collide with the camera when I switched sides at 2AM, and I would prefer the delicate paint on my camera not to shot too much of a dent when I wake up.
I did own a Hassy H1 a few years back, I don't think it fits the bill... :) Would the Pentax do? I have not tried one yet in these conditions, but it has been speced to take such beatings, just like a 1ds3 or D3x.
Cheers,
Bernard
I now have a mental image of a load of japaneese quality control engineers selecting a serries of different shovels to whack a Pentax 645D with as it sits on a test frame, then then tentatively sidling back up to the camera to test it still works.
:D
Ed
-
You mean it's 35mm competition, or its medium format competition? I would think the lower mass of the 35mm focal plane shutter makes it more suitable for heavy duty use.
Either. If I'm not mistaken even entry level 35mm dslrs have a 100k rating. Pro 35mm dslrs - 200k. Medium format leaf shutters 100-200k. Copal - 200k
A max of 50,000 sounds too low for a camera with such "immaculate build"
-
I still think in the end it all comes down image quality. That's why people go for medium format in the first place. If the Pentax system (camera+lenses) can produce equivalent IQ to a Hassy or Phase system in the same sensor category then it should have a very successful path ahead.
Certainly, some will miss the flexibility of a dedicated back but others will appreciate weather sealing and improved autofocus ... All things considered it will be a very compelling offer for a lot of people that want to shoot high-res, high quality images - that is if it does come up to the competition in IQ
-
I still think in the end it all comes down image quality. That's why people go for medium format in the first place. If the Pentax system (camera+lenses) can produce equivalent IQ to a Hassy or Phase system in the same sensor category then it should have a very successful path ahead.
Certainly, some will miss the flexibility of a dedicated back but others will appreciate weather sealing and improved autofocus ... All things considered it will be a very compelling offer for a lot of people that want to shoot high-res, high quality images - that is if it does come up to the competition in IQ
So far, judging by the limited number of available sample Jpeg images, the IQ appears to be inferior to the opposition, and even to the D3X. However, until we see some properly shot raw images to process by our own methods we will not be able to make IQ judgments. It really needs to be better than the D3X to make it worth bothering with investing in a new system, and that's a big ask. Even the S2 is only incrementally better than the D3X.
Game changer - I think not. Interesting development, maybe.
-
The camera can be as good as it might be, I am not excited about any offering which has exactly one fixed focus line on offer.
The key question for the success beyond an initial sales rush to people who might have a full range of old lenses is whether Pentax will start manufacturing the AF lenses again, to have a proper lens line up to support the camera.
I could not find any information on Pentax intention for the lens line up beyond the "one lens now, a wide angle at some point in the future", that is quoted a lot.
I fear that one or two new lenses per year of the new digitally enhanced ones will not be sufficient to carry sales over the initial rush once the target group mentioned above has been satisfied.
-
Game changer - I think not.
that depends on how much of the market they will take regardless of the IQ... m43 changed the game even the IQ might be a little (or more) worse than APS-C...
-
My opinion hasn't changed since I first read the announcement of the Pentax 645D; it's a game changer.
Having said that, the 1.3 crop sensor, fixed back and focal plane shutter makes it a non-starter as far as I'm concerned, but I can imagine many here will be champing at the bit. The question is will Hasselblad defer to Pentax for this sector of the market; IMO I think not.
A number of people have said they did not want a focal plane shutter, I assume for reasons of synching strobe with day light images. As I recall, there were several Pentax 645 lenses with leaf shutters, which synched at all speeds.
Dave
-
As far as long exposures go, it doesn't appear to be a problem from echoes I have heard in Japan, but this point might need doule checking indeed.
The sensor has the joint-lowest dark current of any current Kodak or DALSA MF sensor (at least the ones that DALSA deigns to release such details for). So, as long as Pentax employ appropriate active temperature management, it should be the absolute winner in MF long exposures. It all comes down to Pentax's design, really - they have first class sensor raw material, but do they make the most of it? I hope we shall see some tests, soon.
-
Pentax now has the 645D on their web site in English here:
http://www.pentax.jp/english/imaging/digital/medium/645d/feature_3.html
Dave
-
Also found this on the Pentax site referenced in my previous post:
"Distortion and lateral chromatic aberration compensation functions
assure high-quality images without distortions and color shifts
The 645D’s lens characteristic compensation functions**** effectively compensate for the barrel- and spool-type distortions common to wide-angle and zoom lenses, as well as for the lateral chromatic aberration that causes slight color shifts along the subject’s outline. By effectively compensating optical characteristics for specific lenses on the camera side, the 645D makes images appear sharper and crisper."
**** These functions are available only with D FA 645- and FA 645-series lenses
What do you think: Could the firmware be revised to allow inputing the manual focus lens being used, to take advantage of in camera lens corrections?
Also, I am certain I saw that the latest ACR has correction modules for 645D and a slew of lenses already.
Dave
-
I now have a mental image of a load of japaneese quality control engineers selecting a serries of different shovels to whack a Pentax 645D with as it sits on a test frame, then then tentatively sidling back up to the camera to test it still works.
:-)
Cheers,
Bernard
-
So far, judging by the limited number of available sample Jpeg images, the IQ appears to be inferior to the opposition, and even to the D3X. However, until we see some properly shot raw images to process by our own methods we will not be able to make IQ judgments. It really needs to be better than the D3X to make it worth bothering with investing in a new system, and that's a big ask. Even the S2 is only incrementally better than the D3X.
Game changer - I think not. Interesting development, maybe.
I'd be surprised if many 645D users outisde Japan used jpgs. The conversions from DNG I have seen were excellent.
Cheers,
Bernard
-
Game changer - I think not. Interesting development, maybe.
Nick:
I think the 645D has already changed the game. B&H has a Hasselblad HDII-31 for under $10,000 the last time I checked. I suspect this is in response to the 645D which does not yet have distribution outside of Japan. I intend to purchase a 645D. I’m an amateur, I derive very little income from photography (much less than I spend). There are many people in my situation. We love taking and printing photographs and want to produce the highest quality we can. 20-40k is too much for many of us, 10k is not so bad.
If you check a recent post at LuLa, you can download a DNG file from a 645D, it convinces me.
Tom
-
Dave I believe posted this link: http://photo1.ganref.jp/impression/0/369/645d_lens2_06_l.jpg
Interested to see what you guys think of the details in this image with tiny black specs in the centre of each sparkle...
I can't imagine having to live with them in an image.
-
I checked on ebay and a Taiwanese seller has body only for UK£7000 and body plus 55mm for about UK£8300. However while this seems really attractive, I assume you would be very lucky indeed not to have to pay some import duty and 17.5% UK VAT, although still about UK£4000 cheaper than HD4-40 with 80mm lens. The real issue is that it comes with a warranty valid in Japan, i.e. anything goes wrong, you have to send it to Japan. Even for someone not relying on for main income stream, this adds a further risk. OTOH how often does a camera body go wrong and can we assume there will be technical support in Europe within the next 12 months?
-
I think the 645D has already changed the game. B&H has a Hasselblad HDII-31 for under $10,000 the last time I checked. I suspect this is in response to the 645D ...
That is "near end-of-life" discounting of a previous generation body (H3DII) paired with a previous generation sensor and back (31MP) both superseded by the H4D-40, which is still $18,000 at B&H, and which uses the same sensor as the Pentax 645.
If and when the H4D-40 starts being heavily discounted, the Pentax 645D might be able to take some credit.
-
Dave I believe posted this link: http://photo1.ganref.jp/impression/0/369/645d_lens2_06_l.jpg
Interested to see what you guys think of the details in this image with tiny black specs in the centre of each sparkle...
I can't imagine having to live with them in an image.
Let me assure you that if you realised what you are seeing, you would have a complete change of heart! Those "tiny black specks" are what you get when the lens is an odd number of half-wavelengths out of focus. Note how both the foreground and background point sources gradually show an increasing pattern of light and dark rings - and more critically, how these ring patterns exhibit identical shapes and intensities at a given degree of defocus in front of and behind the plane of sharp focus? That beautiful symmetry, between inside and outside focus, is a sign of near-perfect optics!
Diffraction spikes from the aperture blades are causing a certain jaggedness of the diffraction rings, but that's to be expected with a non-circular aperture. The image is also over-sharpened, for my taste, which increases the contrast between the bright and dark regions of the diffraction pattern at small degrees of defocus.
I don't know what lens this is, but at this f-stop and object distance, its spherical correction looks good to at least 1/6 wavelength :o. The Rayleigh criterion only calls for 1/4 wave accuracy for an optic to earn the label "diffraction limited". There is also little sign of coma or astigmatism in the corners.
Would you be able to live with that? ;)
-
Kudos Ondebanks, very nice analysis. It never occured to me that those spots were a diffraction pattern. Perhaps a the photographer will use a larger aperture next time.
NigelC: I worry about sending the camera for repair to Japan as well; however, in the past I sent cameras to Colorado without a thought and frankly sending them to Japan or Colorado isn't all that different in today's world.
-
Official announcement from Pentax UK - 645D will launch in UK in December (2010). UK£8999 for body only, UK£9999 for body and 55mm lens - don't know about rest of Europe.
-
Official announcement from Pentax UK - 645D will launch in UK in December (2010). UK£8999 for body only, UK£9999 for body and 55mm lens - don't know about rest of Europe.
Not sure whether this price is as competitive as was first indicated when announced in Japan - expect it will be same price in dollars if/when gets to N.America. However that does include 17.5% VAT (going up to 20% in January) - US prices tend to be without point of sale taxes. By comparison, can now get H4DII-40 with 35-90 for UK£13950, VAT included
Bit concerned about lens availability - not sure anyone has been selling new 645AF lenses in UK for a few years.
-
No.
The shot is ruined, whatever the cause.
Dear oh dear. Some people are never satisfied, even when you offer them perfection. ;)
You could add a light blur/diffusion filter, either pre or (more likely) post capture, to smooth out the rings in a shot like this, if the perfect diffraction rings bother you (as I said, oversharpening made them more noticeable). You can always, easily, degrade good imaging to bad; you can never do it the other way around. I would always want a highly corrected lens over a lesser one, if given the choice. But bokeh junkies do get their fixes from undercorrected spherical, 'tis true.
-
However good the camera might be, there is a definite stumbling block at that price (10,000 whatsits).
Frankly, for the money, I would rather have an M9 and that's still out of reach. Now don't misunderstand: as with Mercedes, BMW, small boats et al I can go write a good cheque. But that does not mean that I can really afford it! There is a wealth of difference (NPI) between the two propositions - the doing and the should I. In short, if it's pro, then of course you should do it; if for fun, then perhaps a dose of reality is what the doc should order.
No desire to spoil anyone's breakfast with this, but I do think that many just throw money away - even I have done so, but that's an age thing: the first one, concerning my 'blads, being a male menopause one; the later ones just desperation, buying solutions that really have to come from the mind instead. I was watching Bloomberg the other day, and somebody came up with a novel soundbite (novel to me) when he said that spending money should be as easy as running barbed wire through your fingers. I thought about that, and wish he'd said it a few years ago.
You really can learn from tv after all.
Rob C
Great post but also looks like one I could write myself.
-
NigelC: I worry about sending the camera for repair to Japan as well; however, in the past I sent cameras to Colorado without a thought and frankly sending them to Japan or Colorado isn't all that different in today's world.
Big difference: you're sending it abroad, not to another state (assuming you live in the US). At least in Europe you're liable for customs and duties (and even VAT depending on your tax status) when you get the camera back unless you can prove it was sent for repairs and that you've paid your customs and duties. I've never done that so not sure how convoluted the bureaucracy is. This adds extra time and hassle, probably at both ends (sending and receiving) - dealing with bureaucrats is a sloooooow and painful process. You could have a shipper like DHL do the logistics for you, but that adds cost.
If you brought the camera in your carry-on luggage, didn't declare it, and managed to avoid customs, then send it back for repairs and get caught, you're in a world of hurt (fines or court for tax avoidance, smuggling, eating babies, etc.). Oh, and the same applies for getting caught bringing it in without declaring it.
-
I don't think there is duty on importation of camera bodies and lenses from Japan or Europe. Accessories, yes. This is seperate and apart from local/regional taxes, such as VAT or sales tax in the US.
-
I don't think there is duty on importation of camera bodies and lenses from Japan or Europe. Accessories, yes. This is seperate and apart from local/regional taxes, such as VAT or sales tax in the US.
Could be the case. When I bring a camera for personal use I'd get slapped with VAT and perhaps additional general duties for importing more than 500 EUR worth of goods (or whatever the limit is). For businesses it's obviously different.
-
We will have to wait and see what the prices are going to be in the US but if they are in line with the European prices I don't see Pentax making inroads into the MFD market.
-
Forgive me if this has been covered before but does anyone know what the mirror slap and shutter lag are like on this Pentax?
The H series are nice cameras but for terrible mirror slap (and unreliability). If the Pentax is significantly better in this respect that makes it even more attractive.
-
Welcome to rip-off Britain
Rip-off Europe in fact - I expect euro price to be over 10,000. Remember US prices usually quoted net of point of sale taxes.
Unless they can get into the rental market, I don't think they will sell many in UK. Personally can't see rental houses wanting to carry third line of MF on top of Hassey and Phase/Leaf. The problem is that the body only is double the price of the 1DsIII/D3X and not dramatically less than H4D-40 with some of the deals around. But H series has relatively recent dedicated lens line and Tilt/Shift adapter. Pentax 645/67 lens supply has withered on the vine since Pentax withdrew their MF film line. Only obvious market is people who didn't sell their P645 kit. I can only think pricing in Japan is more competitive or the structure of the market is significantly different.
I just can't see people paying UK£9000 for a body and having to scratch around for s/h glass.
-
JdeV
But all moving-mirror cameras enjoy problems like that - the bigger the format the worse the problem. The only solution would be to eliminate or, at least, attempt to reduce the kinetic energy that is the slap reaction and that could only be done by slowing down the raising action. So, if you fancy 1 sec. + exposures only...
But look at it this way: if you use a camera whose tripod hole is pretty well centrally mounted below the mirror box, a tripod whose plate holds the camera directly above that central column, then the slapping action would have to be attempting to lift the entire camera upwards and as it can't do that when using a solid, rigid, high-mass tripod à la original Gitzos, there should be no movement possible. The same solution should solve fp shutter bounce in some cameras, just as long as they have vertical running shutters and are not turned on their sides... all in all, Compur-type dynamics must be better. Sort of makes me think of attempting to lift one's self by tugging the shoelaces; you sure won't create upward movement, but you might still fall over. As with cameras, you can't win.
Rob C
-
Forgive me if this has been covered before but does anyone know what the mirror slap and shutter lag are like on this Pentax?
If you search this site, you'll find Michael did a test of the film 645N II; basically no mirror slap. In any event, the 645D has a dedicated MLU botton (are you listening Canon?)
-
i just had it in my hand yesterday at photokina.
it is supposed to be in the shops end of this year/early next year.
though its a pretty ugly camera it felt good in my hand.
handling is great, mirrow slap hardly noticable, autofocus appears
pretty fast and precise.
all this is definitely subjective,
since i played around with it for about 5 minutes.
the lcd is finally the way you expect a lcd of a professional camera.
magnifying the images is much much faster than my leaf back.
price in germany will be around 11.000 euro i was told including the
55mm and taxes. so its not that cheap as everybody hoped.
right now there is only one new lens, others - i was told probably a 35mm -
are supposed to follow next year, but no ls-lenses,
no shift in the forseeable future.
-
Well, like some others who may be hovering here, as an advanced amateur, I'll likely pick one up as soon as more kindly souls have vetted it a bit. :) Viewing the most RAW-like images I could find is what did it for me. Wow. Also considering the H3/4-31, but it just seems the Pentax is a bit more 'practical' somehow.
However, does anyone know what lenses Pentax will release in the future? I see a bunch on ebay, but if somehow they release 'improved' D models, I'd like to go down that path instead.
About rip-off-Europe: has traveling to the states for purchases (maybe one with a low sales tax) offset the price + VAT?
-
JdeV
But all moving-mirror cameras enjoy problems like that - the bigger the format the worse the problem. The only solution would be to eliminate or, at least, attempt to reduce the kinetic energy that is the slap reaction and that could only be done by slowing down the raising action. So, if you fancy 1 sec. + exposures only...
Rob C
One might think that bigger formats are worse for mirror slap but that just isn't the case. The Mamiya RZ can be hand held at 1/60th or less. Lag is perfectly acceptable too (certainly as good or better than the much lauded Contax).
Even more extreme, when I owned a Graflex Super D 5"x4" SLR, I could hand hold it at a 1/30th and get perfect results. (There was quite a lag on that though).
Hasselblads, new and old, all suck in this regard though.
-
About rip-off-Europe: has traveling to the states for purchases (maybe one with a low sales tax) offset the price + VAT?
It did when EUR was around 1.5 USD; you could pay off the flight with savings from pretty modest purchases - nowadays you'll have to do the math to ensure you break even. The main problem is warranty repairs, so make sure you get global coverage.
-
Hi,
Shutter can also cause vibrations. I had great difficulty with my Pentax 67 on my Manfrotto C55 tripod - even with MLU -
the problem "went away" when I switched to a Velbon carbon fibre tripod weighting less than half.
The vibrations on the Pentax were horizontal, so it was pretty clear it was caused by the shutter and not the mirror.
Best regards
Erik
-
The vibrations on the Pentax were horizontal, so it was pretty clear it was caused by the shutter and not the mirror.
Best regards
Erik
That's exactly what I found with my own 67 11; as I always had the thing on a tripod and used MU it could only have been the shutter. A pity, really, because it was a beautiful camera and very well made. Except for the loading... and the unloading. Scared me every time though I did not, ever, actually drop a film.
Rob C
-
Even more extreme, when I owned a Graflex Super D 5"x4" SLR, I could hand hold it at a 1/30th and get perfect results. (There was quite a lag on that though).
Hasselblads, new and old, all suck in this regard though.
For quite a while Hasselblads have used a shutter delay to minimise mirror slap. There are several levels of delay and they are surprisingly effective. One more area where Hasselblad are using innovative techniques that help in the real world. Like introducing True Focus, which is manifestly better than multiple focus points that will probably not be exactly where you need them.
-
For quite a while Hasselblads have used a shutter delay to minimise mirror slap. There are several levels of delay and they are surprisingly effective.
If I am not mistaken this shutter delay is between the up movement of the mirror and the start of the shutter movement, right?
It is clearly useful, and the implementation of Hassy is IMHO best in class, but it is not related to shutter induced vibrations. Now, since the H series relies mostly on lead shutter lenses, shutter vibrations are mostly not a problem in the first place.
Cheers,
Bernard
-
As I mentioned in another thread,the Pentax 645D is officially going global in December:
news with pricing at DPReview (http://www.dpreview.com/news/1009/10092318pentax645davailbility.asp)
-
If I am not mistaken this shutter delay is between the up movement of the mirror and the start of the shutter movement, right?
It is clearly useful, and the implementation of Hassy is IMHO best in class, but it is not related to shutter induced vibrations. Now, since the H series relies mostly on lead shutter lenses, shutter vibrations are mostly not a problem in the first place.
Cheers,
Bernard
Yes, it delays the firing of the shutter till the vibrations have ceased to interfere significantly. But if you use the camera on a tripod the best approach (IMO) is to program a simple sequence: mirror up, few seconds delay to let it settle then fire shutter and mirror down. Real easy to do - must be if I can do it! With leaf shutters and an averagely steady tripod vibrations just aren't a problem, even with a 300 lens.
-
Yes, it delays the firing of the shutter till the vibrations have ceased to interfere significantly. But if you use the camera on a tripod the best approach (IMO) is to program a simple sequence: mirror up, few seconds delay to let it settle then fire shutter and mirror down. Real easy to do - must be if I can do it! With leaf shutters and an averagely steady tripod vibrations just aren't a problem, even with a 300 lens.
What happens if the subject is moving ? Model, child or animal etc. Surely you just have to get used to the mirror slap like it or not ! I always use the heaviest tripod possible when using my V system bodies. Damn thing must weigh fifty pounds or more !
Pete
-
V-Sytem usage, with the max. of a 500th sec exposure (if lucky) was never much good for movement, and neither was the camera itself. The fp shuttered models might have been better, but the only way I knew how to stop action with a V was in the studio with electronic flash.
But for what they did do, they seemed unbeatable cameras.
Rob C
-
What happens if the subject is moving ? Model, child or animal etc. Surely you just have to get used to the mirror slap like it or not ! I always use the heaviest tripod possible when using my V system bodies. Damn thing must weigh fifty pounds or more !
Pete
Good question! Obviously we're talking handheld, rather than tripod (because you can use mirror-up), and that's basically what it's designed for. I'm not good at keeping steady with any camera when handholding, some people just aren't, but it really does help. The delay is very small, I can't detect any difference between the longest and shortest delay settings, but I can see improved sharpness in the middle to longest delays. I suppose they would affect the image if the subject is moving fast, but then MF is hopeless at that anyway, whatever your gear. I don't detect any blur in the moving subjects I have taken. Talking about normal walking speeds, portraits with people moving normally. This isn't an advert for Hasselblad, simply a feature I have found actually works like it claims. Cheers.
-
Forgive me if this has been covered before but does anyone know what the mirror slap and shutter lag are like on this Pentax?
The mirror mechanism is very smooth. As good or just slightly better than the 645NII. I think it will be slightly better than the 'Blad, but whether this translates to anything in practice remains to be seen. I will be very interested to test the camera with a 300mm lens at 1/15th.
The camera is also very responsive. Think dslr.
I will put these items on my test agenda for when I get the camera in the next couple of weeks.
- N.
-
I shot with it at Photokina this week, and I was very impressed with just about everything the camera offers. The menu / LCD, handling, shutter slap, autofocus, etc etc. To me the proof is in the pudding with the file quality. I think the Hasselblad H4D 31 pricing is going to seriously affect the viability of the 645D, primarily because of the installed base and known quality of the lenses. I haven't seen a Pentax 645 lens on a shelf in quite a few years, and their marketing online is very slim with regards to what is actually available.
The 645D has more DNA of a 35mm DSLR than a medium format camera, and I think that is a good thing.
-
Forgive me if this has been covered before but does anyone know what the mirror slap and shutter lag are like on this Pentax?
The H series are nice cameras but for terrible mirror slap (and unreliability). If the Pentax is significantly better in this respect that makes it even more attractive.
"The Camera Store" did a review and claim that most of the vibrations are felt after the exposure, which I guess means they focused on dampening the flip up. Their review is quite ecstatic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wPD1wRpels&feature=player_embedded
-
"The Camera Store" did a review and claim that most of the vibrations are felt after the exposure, which I guess means they focused on dampening the flip up. Their review is quite ecstatic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wPD1wRpels&feature=player_embedded
I think accepting this depends more on suspension of belief in mechanical reality than of vibrations; "hold your reactions, pet, we are exposing for the next millisec!"
Rob C
-
"The Camera Store" did a review and claim that most of the vibrations are felt after the exposure, which I guess means they focused on dampening the flip up.
That is what was said of the Pentax 645 film cameras' clever mirror mechanism: the mirror rise causes little vibration until its "hits the top" and starts returning, which does not starts until a split second after the shutter release, and so does not affect image quality.
-
I shot with it at Photokina this week, and I was very impressed with just about everything the camera offers. The menu / LCD, handling, shutter slap, autofocus, etc etc. To me the proof is in the pudding with the file quality. I think the Hasselblad H4D 31 pricing is going to seriously affect the viability of the 645D, primarily because of the installed base and known quality of the lenses. I haven't seen a Pentax 645 lens on a shelf in quite a few years, and their marketing online is very slim with regards to what is actually available.
The 645D has more DNA of a 35mm DSLR than a medium format camera, and I think that is a good thing.
+ 1
True, the lenses are the achillis-heel of this camera. Great camera for (former) Pentax users that still own some lenses. For all newcomers not so great until the lens situation has improved and more fit for purpose lenses have arrived.
-
Here is what they had to say:
Pentax has developed a very good timing and braking system for the mirror on this camera and as such with moderate to fast shutter speeds most of the exposure takes place whilst the mirror ascends towards the top of housing, as well even when it does hit it's incredibly well dampened and has little effect on the picture. We had no trouble with hand holding shots down to 1/8 of a second, so in our opinion what they claim in their camera seems to work well.
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1036&message=36465260
-
Here is what they had to say:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1036&message=36465260
Come on now, you can't review something without pointing out the negatives along with the positives. I'm embarrassed that link was posted on lula. Keep that stuff over there please.
-
I agree that is more like a marketing preview, but thought some may be interested. I have read my fair share of narrow-perspective reviews while lurking here.
-
True, the lenses are the achillis-heel of this camera. Great camera for (former) Pentax users that still own some lenses. For all newcomers not so great until the lens situation has improved and more fit for purpose lenses have arrived.
Not at all sure what you mean by this. You can get everything from a fisheye to an 800mm, with a raft of zooms in prime focal lengths. The only thing missing if a Tilt lens.
If your concern is availability, only a few of the lenses are rare on the used market, most of them are still available new in Japan, so I suspect that there won't be much of an issue with availability once the camera comes ashore.
- N.
-
Although I am committed to this camera, I am certainly concerned about service in the US since Pentax outsourced its repair facility in Colorado. Interestingly, here's a quote from Ned Bunnell (President, Pentax USA) addressing that issue "What we're saying is, if a photographer buys this camera, we will provide that photographer with direct contact to one of our support staff in Golden, Co. It's different from if you bought one of our traditional cameras in the past when you got a support group. In this case, you'll have a name."
I'm not quite sure what that means.
The link is here:
http://www.pdngearguide.com/gearguide/content_display/news/e3i0121638c1a14264adbc8a534b23ff0e6
BTW Bill Gouge discusses the 645D's mirror in the interview with Nick Devlin
-
Not at all sure what you mean by this. You can get everything from a fisheye to an 800mm, with a raft of zooms in prime focal lengths. The only thing missing if a Tilt lens.
If your concern is availability, only a few of the lenses are rare on the used market, most of them are still available new in Japan, so I suspect that there won't be much of an issue with availability once the camera comes ashore.
- N.
Nick: I read that Pentax AF lenses will communicate with the body, and in camera corrections will be made for CA, distortions, etc. I have two AF lenses and 5 MF lenses. In your opinion, could a firmware update allow the user to manually input the lens used? I picture my most used lens being the MF 35mm...a wonderous lens from my film days. It would be nice to tell the camera I was using it, and the camera provide some lens corrections. What do you think? You may have surmised I will be an early buyer. Some of my 645, 645N film shots are my biggest sellers.
Thanks for your insight.... ;)
Dave Gurtcheff
www.modernpictorials.com
-
Dave,
All of these sorts of corrections are done in the proprietary software (be it Phocus, C1 or the Pentax equivalent). All the camera does is meta-tag the image. If Pentax computes optical corrections/optimizations for these older lenses, there is no reason the couldn't add a firmware option to input the lens data manually from a menu a-la the M9.
I, too, will be interested to see how the older lenses work, especially the 67 glass.
- N.
-
Hi,
Lightroom 3 or ACR can also automatically adjust images if:
- There is a lens profile
- Lightroom knows which lens was used
A lens vendor can create a profile but Adobe has a tool available (for free) that makes the job. If the images are not tagged with lens type that information can be entered in ACR/LR manually.
Best regards
Erik
Nick: I read that Pentax AF lenses will communicate with the body, and in camera corrections will be made for CA, distortions, etc. I have two AF lenses and 5 MF lenses. In your opinion, could a firmware update allow the user to manually input the lens used? I picture my most used lens being the MF 35mm...a wonderous lens from my film days. It would be nice to tell the camera I was using it, and the camera provide some lens corrections. What do you think? You may have surmised I will be an early buyer. Some of my 645, 645N film shots are my biggest sellers.
Thanks for your insight.... ;)
Dave Gurtcheff
www.modernpictorials.com
-
Thanks for the info. I think ACR 6.1 already has lens corrections for the AF series of lenses. A good sign.
Dave
-
FYI: Pentax USA ( http://www.pentaximaging.com/slr/645D/ )is now accepting your credit card info for preorders of the 645D (expected in December).
-
Well the Camera is on Pentax US Website.
But .... 0 additional lenses.
I really hope the AF lenses production is re-started.
B