Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Digital Image Processing => Topic started by: mistybreeze on July 22, 2010, 08:53:43 am
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Yes, this is an anti-Adobe rant. I'm sick and tired of their awful customer service, which, IMO, has greatly deteriorated through the years. As far as I'm concerned, bad customer service starts at the top. Adobe's CEO should be fired.
Am I the only customer who finds the following product title almost impossible to decipher?
Adobe UPG CS5 ADOBE DESIGN PREMIUM 5 F/ 2/3 VER BACK MACINTOSH FR SUITES
I called Adobe and, after being transferred around the world, from one service rep to another, a total of five people, sales to tech help to customer service, nobody, and I mean nobody, including a supervisor in sales, could tell me what FR means in this product title. The supervisor told me "no such product exists...there should be no FR in the product title. Be sure to purchase your Adobe product from an authorized reseller." I told the supervisor that I was using the authorized reseller list as my guide when I made this mysterious discovery. The resellers I called could not tell me what the FR means because they simply copy and paste description info from the information Adobes sends them.
In the meantime, if you Google "Adobe FR Suites," there are pages of Adobe product descriptions with this FR in the title. None of these descriptions tell you what FR means or stands for. And, according to Adobe, such a product description does not exist.
I considered purchasing the CS5 Design Premium upgrade at the time of the launch but I was on my way out of town for a 3-week gig in Europe. I downloaded the 30-day trial version to get my feet wet and figured I'd love it and upgrade immediately upon my return. Now that I have returned, I discover the price has changed for the upgrade. Instead of $600 a month ago, I now have to pay $800 because, without notice, Adobe decided to punish all those photographers (and anyone else who purchases these bundles) who didn't upgrade to CS4.
Business is terrible. The economy sucks. And my electric bill is killing me. Now Adobe expects us to upgrade every 18 months and we small business owners have to pay, pay, pay to deal with all the expensive issues that come with an upgrade. Otherwise, skip one cycle and fork over an extra $200 to upgrade a year or two later because Adobe really needs your money. Sounds reasonable at the foundation but I hate the way Adobe displays its need for capital.
I resent the sneaky and confusing way they go about informing their customers of their new pricing policies. Yes, they tease consumers with the term "starting at $599." But until you dig deeper and make sure your pop-up blockers are turned off, it takes a few steps to discover that the $599 price only applies to those who bought CS4, which most professionals did not buy. Their 18-month upgrade cycle is driving most of us insane.
Are 15 variations of the same product really necessary? CS5 Design Premium has 15 variations. How many people are purchasing "CS5 Adobe Design Premium 5 - Version Upgrade" for $599, only to find when they go to install it, the license won't work because they did not upgrade to CS4? There are numerous online resellers, some very popular, who don't offer specific information regarding version upgrades. Some resellers only carry one version of an upgrade and they don't explain that their $599 version only allows you to upgrade from CS4. One authorized reseller I spoke with had no idea that a 2/3 Version Back existed.
IMO, all of this nonsense is confusing, disruptive, and time wasting. Maybe the confusion is making Adobe a ton of money. I don't know many consumers who shop by Manufacturer Part #'s, especially for software.
I'm furious with Adobe and I'm glad I gave them a piece of my mind. I've grown too cynical to think my opinion will change anything. In the meantime, I still have no idea what the FR means in the product title. And I'm furious that no one at Adobe could explain that to me.
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I think you'd make much more mileage with this issue by sending a calm, cool note to the CEO of Adobe explaining in a flat, factual manner your frustration with sorting out their product line and pricing policies and that you've experienced great difficulty getting clarity from their customer service network. Tell him what exactly it is that you want from them in order to make your experience as a customer better and to ensure that you are selecting the product which is correct for your needs. He may not even see your letter, but whoever in his office sorts his correspondence will make sure that it gets to the right place for a response.
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Am I the only customer who finds the following product title almost impossible to decipher?
Adobe UPG CS5 ADOBE DESIGN PREMIUM 5 F/ 2/3 VER BACK MACINTOSH FR SUITES
I googled the describtion - the very first result points to an Amazon article called "Adobe Creative Suite 5 Design Premium Upgrade from CS2/CS3 [Mac]" - so that's pretty clear to me.
No idea about FR either...
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Um... maybe French language version?
Nill
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I think you'd make much more mileage with this issue by sending a calm, cool note to the CEO of Adobe explaining in a flat, factual manner your frustration...
Calm and cool ended after being bounced around from one uninformed person to another. Calm and cool ended when the price point jumped $200 before my free-trail was completed. None of Adobe's products are cheap. Nobody who plunks down thousands of dollars for a product, year after year, should have to tolerate such incompetence in customer service or endure such confusion when trying to make a sale. That said, I'm a firm believer in letters to CEOs. If I can get calm in this heat, I will send one.
Um... maybe French language version
That would be a logical assumption except "Universal English" is always listed as Language Support in the description.
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Am I the only customer who finds the following product title almost impossible to decipher?
Adobe UPG CS5 ADOBE DESIGN PREMIUM 5 F/ 2/3 VER BACK MACINTOSH FR SUITES
While I agree that the number of upgrade versions is baffling, I read it as:
- Adobe UPG CS5 ADOBE DESIGN PREMIUM 5; An upgrade to CS5 Design Premium 5
- F/ 2/3 VER BACK; For maximum 2 to 3 versions back (so CS3 and CS4)
- MACINTOSH; Mac OS platform
- FR SUITES; For suite upgrades only, not for e.g. Photoshop to suite
The confusion is caused by an attempt to throw up blockades for loyal customers who want to do partial upgrades, e.g. due to changed business model. Once a suite licence is issued, one cannot use it for a single item upgrade anymore, thus forcing to do a more expensive full suite upgrade. Forcing customers into certain behavior shows contempt for the customer base, alienating one's loyal customers base is a bad practice if one wants to stay in business long term. The fact that the dealers even have a hard time understanding, as I personally experienced as well (it took one of the largest local ones the better part of a day to figure out which upgade I needed), is telling.
Cheers,
Bart
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Calm and cool ended after being bounced around from one uninformed person to another. Calm and cool ended when the price point jumped $200 before my free-trail was completed. None of Adobe's products are cheap. Nobody who plunks down thousands of dollars for a product, year after year, should have to tolerate such incompetence in customer service or endure such confusion when trying to make a sale. That said, I'm a firm believer in letters to CEOs. If I can get calm in this heat, I will send one.
That would be a logical assumption except "Universal English" is always listed as Language Support in the description.
You see Misty, the only person who suffers from your ending of "calm and cool" is you, because you're the one who gets agitated/uncomfortable and no-one else is impacted by it. So do cool-down despite the heat down there in NYC (Toronto is only a little better because we're further North and sit by a huge lake) and write the letter. You'll do yourself and the community some good. Companies periodically get lost in themselves and need reasoned feedback from their customers to help set them straight again.
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You see Misty, the only person who suffers from your ending of "calm and cool" is you, because you're the one who gets agitated/uncomfortable and no-one else is impacted by it.
Every photographer is impacted by Adobe's actions and behavior. We should all write and complain. But, today, everyone with a camera is a photographer. And Adobe does little to differentiate the pros from the rest. We're all treated like idiot cattle who need to be shipped off to India to get incompetent customer service. I changed printers because my favorite brand sent its CS Department to India. I can't change my need for Adobe so I'm stuck and they know it.
Until Adobe has a legitimate competitor, my fear is they won't ever truly care about customer pain and frustration. Actions always speak louder than words. They're in business to make money so, let's face it, if they can't develop new, successful products, the burden of raising capital falls on our backs. Honestly, how much more do we need Photoshop to do? Is Content Aware Fill going to impact my bottom line anytime soon? I don't think so. Have you seen all the things that the latest Photoshop CS5 update attempts to fix? In a perfect world, these things would have been fixed before the product hits the shelves.
Hopefully, my rant here will help other customers through the shopping quagmire. I'd be really angry if I had purchased one of those upgrades that required CS4 and then had to fight to get my registration number to work now and in the future.
In the meantime, I'm off to the gym. That's the most effective way I know how to manage anger.
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I resent the sneaky and confusing way they go about informing their customers of their new pricing policies. Yes, they tease consumers with the term "starting at $599." But until you dig deeper and make sure your pop-up blockers are turned off, it takes a few steps to discover that the $599 price only applies to those who bought CS4, which most professionals did not buy. Their 18-month upgrade cycle is driving most of us insane.
No-one is forcing you to upgrade, so why complain about it as if you have no choice. And if you do want the new features, surely you do not expect the product for free just because you have an older version of the software?
The upgrade price does say 'from' not 'is' $599? And there are lots of choices as there are lots of upgrade paths, as it is a collection of programmes. If you upgrade PS, then there is just the one price of $199 if upgrading PS and you can do so up to 3 version back or 4 if you buy the latest version just after the next one is announced. So you can upgrade every 6 years for a mere $200, hardly expensive to buy one of the best programmes you can buy. You obviously pay more for the suites as there are a lot of programmes in them, so the suites are pretty good value and usually include the more expensive PS Extended too IIRC.
I'm also curious as to why you think most professionals did not buy CS4.
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Every photographer is impacted by Adobe's actions and behavior. We should all write and complain. But, today, everyone with a camera is a photographer. And Adobe does little to differentiate the pros from the rest.
So PS Extended, PS, PS Lightroom and PS Elements does not cater for a range of photographers? PS Elements even has most of the power of PS at a fraction of the price.
We're all treated like idiot cattle who need to be shipped off to India to get incompetent customer service. I changed printers because my favorite brand sent its CS Department to India. I can't change my need for Adobe so I'm stuck and they know it.
Indian call centres are the bane of so many customers lives. Usually a complete waste of time dealing with them.
Actually you could try non Adobe products, lots of people use them very happily - Aperture, Capture One, The Gimp, Paintshop Pro, ACDSee, DPP, NX2 and there are a few others that I can't remember the names off hand.
Honestly, how much more do we need Photoshop to do? Is Content Aware Fill going to impact my bottom line anytime soon? I don't think so.
No need to buy it then is there! Problem solved.
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Agreed, Adobe's service is atrocious. Here's the question: Who's any better? Software or hardware?
In the last few years, the only companies that I personally have experienced good or very good service from are small, nimble, new(er) companies. HDRSoft (producers of Photomatix) provides great service. A couple other small, specialised software makers provide very good to great service. Other than that, it's all a bag of poop.
Customer service and technical support service have become anathema to companies and corporate management and the concept is nearly completely antithetical to the majority of business models. Today's business model works on the basis of screw the current customer because there's always another sucker waiting in the wings. The idea that it costs less to retain a customer than develop a new one doesn't apply to many of the types of companies we deal with today. They simply don't care. Beat last quarter's earnings? Yep. Beat the street estimate? Nope. OK, cut something here or there, revise outlook and try to beat the street next quarter.
Sorry to say it but well thought out, articulate, reasoned letters to management aren't going to do anything. Won't matter how many they get. Unless and until there's a mass exodus of customers; so large that any influx of new customers can't make up the difference, nothing will change. Even then, nothing's likely to change because management of most companies is stupid. Stupid and arrogant and they'll simply think it's not their problem. They'll keep thinking that right through the Chapter 11 process.
Hell, I've been waiting 4 days to get my login for the NAPP forums fixed and it'll be at least a 5th day before anything happens (if anything happens).
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I think this is overly harsh and inappropriate. Over the past few months I've required technical support from PNY/nVidia, Hewlett-Packard, Dell, Adobe, Epson, and NEC. All of them are very large corporations and in all cases the issues I brought to them were handled properly and got resolved, if not on the first call, on the second. Some of the calls were addressed in the USA, others in the Philippines and India - doesn't matter where really - what matters is the quality of the systems and personnel. Yes, there are horror stories on support - many of them, but when you look at the whole universe of support these companies are offering to many millions of people, I don't think such over-simplified generalizations bear serious scrutiny.
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I think this is overly harsh and inappropriate. Over the past few months I've required technical support from PNY/nVidia, Hewlett-Packard, Dell, Adobe, Epson,
Maybe you are just like those heavy smokers that make it in the hundreds
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Over the past few months I've required technical support from PNY/nVidia, Hewlett-Packard, Dell, Adobe, Epson, and NEC.
This quote should make every one of us who depend on professional hardware and software cringe.....
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Maybe you are just like those heavy smokers that make it in the hundreds
No.
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This quote should make every one of us who depend on professional hardware and software cringe.....
I'd say yes and no to that. Yes in the sense that for several of these issues, had the companies issued better documentation the calls to tech support would not have been necessary. They scrimp on documentation - either to save money or because they are too immersed in their own subject matter to really understand the needs of communication with the outside world, so they end-up wasting resources on the consequences of inadequate documentation. Some companies actually do try to optimize their communication strategies in terms of dollars and cents worth of tech support they could avoid, but I'm sure not all do. No in the sense that these systems we use are truly very complex, it's simply impossible for any one manufacturer to anticipate each and every kind of issue that can arise in getting it all to function properly together, especially as their cooperation can be limited by the proprietary nature of their businesses - so glitches are unavoidable and calls to tech support therefore become inevitable. Some of it is cringe over, but not all. Some we just have to expect as the "cost of doing business", of "having fun" as the case may be.
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I called Adobe and, after being transferred around the world, from one service rep to another, a total of five people, sales to tech help to customer service, nobody, and I mean nobody, including a supervisor in sales, could tell me what FR means in this product title.
It's a surprise.
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You certainly are not alone with the way you feel about ADOBE. for the last few years, they have just gotten to be sloppy, and careless.
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While I agree that the number of upgrade versions is baffling, I read it as:
- Adobe UPG CS5 ADOBE DESIGN PREMIUM 5; An upgrade to CS5 Design Premium 5
- F/ 2/3 VER BACK; For maximum 2 to 3 versions back (so CS3 and CS4)
- MACINTOSH; Mac OS platform
- FR SUITES; For suite upgrades only, not for e.g. Photoshop to suite
The confusion is caused by an attempt to throw up blockades for loyal customers who want to do partial upgrades, e.g. due to changed business model. Once a suite licence is issued, one cannot use it for a single item upgrade anymore, thus forcing to do a more expensive full suite upgrade. Forcing customers into certain behavior shows contempt for the customer base, alienating one's loyal customers base is a bad practice if one wants to stay in business long term. The fact that the dealers even have a hard time understanding, as I personally experienced as well (it took one of the largest local ones the better part of a day to figure out which upgade I needed), is telling.
Cheers,
Bart
Indeed. I bought one of the suites simply because adobe offered it at the campus store for the same price as the academic standalone pricing for the product within it that I actually cared about and now they refuse to let me upgrade just the one product even though I have another suite that already covers virtually all of the rest anyway. They won't even allow one to trade in a suite license for a single product license. So they want $499 instead of $199 for the upgrade. If I wait for CS6 then they said the upgrade will be $699 (i.e. same price as new!). Anyway, that's crazy so I'm just going to stick with the version I have forever instead. Not sure how that does them better.....
Anyway, don't feel too frustrated. I literally had to spend years to deal with a single warranty claim from Samsung! (the magic words turned out to be "attorney general")
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It's a surprise.
indeed it is. shhhhh if you don't keep quiet everyone will want an FR in their package!
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Upgrades and pricing aside (which I agree are hard to comprehend in the case of CS and PS), the reason that all the big IT companies get away with such lousy support is that forums like this (and all the other ones I could mention) are the customer support these days. You will will usually get a quicker, better-informed and more generally useful answer to any software or hardware problem by finding the appropriate forum and posting your question there.
John
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Upgrades and pricing aside (which I agree are hard to comprehend in the case of CS and PS), the reason that all the big IT companies get away with such lousy support is that forums like this (and all the other ones I could mention) are the customer support these days. You will will usually get a quicker, better-informed and more generally useful answer to any software or hardware problem by finding the appropriate forum and posting your question there.
You have to pick your forum and posters carefully though. There's an awful lot of nonsense out there.
ProDig is very useful for real world technical stuff relating to photography as it's mostly pro photographers taking part. It's an email subscription, rather than web based, but works well.
ProDig (http://prodig.org/)
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Got it! FR = Fr..g..n Ridiculous.
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I'd say yes and no to that. Yes in the sense that for several of these issues, had the companies issued better documentation the calls to tech support would not have been necessary. They scrimp on documentation - either to save money or because they are too immersed in their own subject matter to really understand the needs of communication with the outside world, so they end-up wasting resources on the consequences of inadequate documentation. Some companies actually do try to optimize their communication strategies in terms of dollars and cents worth of tech support they could avoid, but I'm sure not all do. No in the sense that these systems we use are truly very complex, it's simply impossible for any one manufacturer to anticipate each and every kind of issue that can arise in getting it all to function properly together, especially as their cooperation can be limited by the proprietary nature of their businesses - so glitches are unavoidable and calls to tech support therefore become inevitable. Some of it is cringe over, but not all. Some we just have to expect as the "cost of doing business", of "having fun" as the case may be.
I should have added to this that one of my tech support calls - indeed a very long one - was with Hewlett Packard. I do wonder about the technical merit of some of the software and firmware which supports consumer grade products of theirs with which I've had experience. It seems very heavy and intrusive on an OS for what it does. Anyhow, I needed to uninstall the Officejet Pro 8000 and re-install it. The process got completely and hopelessly tangled. I'll never know why. I called their tech support. I was speaking to their service center in the Philippines. The lady at the other end of the line spent about an hour with me getting this printer completely uninstalled and every last remnant of the software removed from every nook and cranny in the computer. She also had me uninstall Adobe Flash Player because it could interfere with the uninstall and reinstall process of their software. Then she took me through getting it reinstalled, Flash re-installed and testing every printer function to make sure it all worked properly again. So what do I take away from an experience like this? Boo to HP for developing software which is so difficult to handle that this kind of support is needed altogether, but three cheers for HP with the manner in which they handled my problem. It's a complicated world we live in, so we need to be cautious not to over-simplify and over-generalize these situations, and above all over-drive ourselves on these issuees.
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Got it! FR = Fr..g..n Ridiculous.
That's pretty much what I've deduced.
One of Adobe's authorized resellers emailed me yesterday twice. The senior executive with whom I spoke did his own investigation because he, too, was perplexed by the FR. I'm the first person to bring it to his attention. At first, he said the FR was for French Version but then quickly got back to me and said that was wrong. He ended up deciding that the FR did not belong in the product title and he said he would make changes to his website immediately.
Another executive from a well known retailer told me he put in a call to his rep at Adobe. It's been well over 24 hours and the rep has not returned his call yet. I just don't know what to say about any of this crap.
If Bart is correct and FR is short for For, then the label maker at Adobe should have his/her head lopped off. Never have I ever seen "for" abbreviated as uppercase FR. But since these nubile text-messaging hooligans are taking over the world, maybe I'm just getting to old for digital. I'm still waiting for an intelligent explanation from Adobe. I'm not holding my breath.
In the meantime, Adobe got my money. I purchased both CS5 Design Premium and Lightroom 3. I've been looking forward to both and I never intended not to make this purchase. I hope my extra $200 goes right into Thomas Knoll's pocket because where would we be without that guy's genius. If Michael Reichmann and Jeff Schewe plan on making a Lightroom 3 video, I will buy that, too. I just love watching those two guys sit around their laptops, explaining this sh!t to all of us.
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Regarding "Who does give proper service".
I have had several experiences with LaCie including a hard drive replaced over a year out of warranty. Everyone I have spoken with has been courtious, prompt, and knowledgable, even to the extent of calling me back to ask permission to replace a drive with a later much improved model.
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But since these nubile text-messaging hooligans are taking over the world,
I plan on using this phrase at least 1000 times in the next year.
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... If Michael Reichmann and Jeff Schewe plan on making a Lightroom 3 video, I will buy that, too. I just love watching those two guys sit around their laptops, explaining this sh!t to all of us.
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/videos/lr3.shtml (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/videos/lr3.shtml)
Nill
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But since these nubile text-messaging hooligans are taking over the world
Nubile? How do you know? Do you have photographs?
In my younger days, I'd have loved to meet some nubile hooligans. The only hooligans I ever met were male, unattractive and very far from marriage material.
Jeremy
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That's pretty much what I've deduced.
One of Adobe's authorized resellers emailed me yesterday twice. The senior executive with whom I spoke did his own investigation because he, too, was perplexed by the FR. I'm the first person to bring it to his attention. At first, he said the FR was for French Version but then quickly got back to me and said that was wrong. He ended up deciding that the FR did not belong in the product title and he said he would make changes to his website immediately.
Another executive from a well known retailer told me he put in a call to his rep at Adobe. It's been well over 24 hours and the rep has not returned his call yet. I just don't know what to say about any of this crap.
If Bart is correct and FR is short for For, then the label maker at Adobe should have his/her head lopped off. Never have I ever seen "for" abbreviated as uppercase FR. But since these nubile text-messaging hooligans are taking over the world, maybe I'm just getting to old for digital. I'm still waiting for an intelligent explanation from Adobe. I'm not holding my breath.
In the meantime, Adobe got my money. I purchased both CS5 Design Premium and Lightroom 3. I've been looking forward to both and I never intended not to make this purchase. I hope my extra $200 goes right into Thomas Knoll's pocket because where would we be without that guy's genius. If Michael Reichmann and Jeff Schewe plan on making a Lightroom 3 video, I will buy that, too. I just love watching those two guys sit around their laptops, explaining this sh!t to all of us.
hah i think the nubile text-messaging hooligans would've used "4" not "FR" two-letters is like totally wayyy LOOONNGGGG gotta get it down to one!
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Yeah, nubile and hooligans don't really go together.
Nubile = good. Hooligans = bad.
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Since others have mentioned their experiences with other companies I thought I'd chime in. After recently changing from PC to MAC, I was having a problem getting a legacy Canon multi function printer installed. A couple of emails to customer support were very promptly answered and the problem was solved in short order (by way of disclosure here, it was my fault the driver install bombed because I was unfamiliar with the MAC). Fast forward a couple of months and I'm the proud owner of an iPF6300, once again, due to me not RTFM, the software install didn't seem to go right. this time I called Canon and probably spent < 60 seconds navigating the call menu and being on hold, the call center people were in America and were very, very friendly and helpful. the problem was very quickly resolved and I'm happily printing on the 6300. For many years I was a PC/Epson user, probably should have spent more time reading before doing the installs.
Thanks, Kevin :D