Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: EricDosSantosPhotography on July 12, 2010, 01:00:54 am
-
This is probably a newbie question, but one of the main reasons I'm getting into medium format is because I have heard that they can sync to 1/800 of a second. I know that hasselblad can do this and so can the Mamiya 645DF and Phase One DF. But if I have a 645 AFD i or ii can I buy shutter leaf lenses and have it still sync at 1/800 of a second? By the way I would be using this with a p30+ back. Also if you guys have recommendations between the hassy and the mamiya/ phase bodies that would be awesome!
Thank You,
Eric
-
Hi,
Also in retrospec to your other post.
Before switching to MF try and rent a body/back, you've been shooting for 11months you mentioned in the other thread, remember that a MF camera is something else than a DSLR, it's a different approach.
I for one am without a doubt convinced it's better than the DSLR on some occasions but not on all, I still use both.
Don't buy one for the wrong reasons.
The 1/800 sync speed is only handy when shooting strobes outside and you want to fight the sun.
If you're doing studio work it's of no use.
Also when choosing the back I would opt for a Leaf Aptus with the smaller crops like the AptusII5 or AptusII7 or get a second hand Aptus22, still one of the best backs around.
Camerawise, the Mamiya AFD/II or AFD/III and with more budget the Phase One DF would be good choices, operation wise they are very close to a DSLR.
Don't think I'm talking you out of buying a MF camera but I'm just telling you to first try before you buy, I switched and I love it but I'm shooting some years and I've students of mine loving the viewfinder and the feel of the MF camera but they only produce unsharp photos because of the different AF, mirrorslap etc.
Choosing a better camera doesn't make you a better photographer.
Choosing a better camera can make you a better photographer, if you know how to utilize the difference.
Hope this helps.
-
That definately helps. I want the 1/800 because I do a lot of motion shots and cane use any help I can get. It will help cut down on the ambient light the sensor is seeing when trying to stop motion outdoors. You are the first person that has recommended the leaf backs. So far everyone has been all about the phase one backs and I have been pretty set on getting a p30+. I got a trade offer for a mamiya af22 with the new aptus ii 5. I was seriously considering taking it with the exception of the fact that it doesn't have the sync speed I'm looking for. I would like it atleast as an option.
Eric
-
That definately helps. I want the 1/800 because I do a lot of motion shots and cane use any help I can get. It will help cut down on the ambient light the sensor is seeing when trying to stop motion outdoors. You are the first person that has recommended the leaf backs. So far everyone has been all about the phase one backs and I have been pretty set on getting a p30+. I got a trade offer for a mamiya af22 with the new aptus ii 5. I was seriously considering taking it with the exception of the fact that it doesn't have the sync speed I'm looking for. I would like it atleast as an option.
Eric
For 1/800 you need a 645DF body (Phase One or Mamiya) and a leaf shutter lens. With all the new leaf Aptus-II backs you'll get 1/1,600 on that body+lens combo.
Yair
-
I know, I want either the 645DF or a hassy body. I have not decided which yet. But unless someone can tell me why a leaf back as opposed to a phase one, I am going to stick with the p30+ that I had originally wanted. I understand why you support leaf frank. I viewed their website and saw you talking about it . Does anyone have some information on why the mamiya would be better vs. a hasselblad h1 or h2? I'm going tuesday to go try them both to see which feels better, but would like to know from a technical standpoint.
Thank You,
Eric
For 1/800 you need a 645DF body (Phase One or Mamiya) and a leaf shutter lens. With all the new leaf Aptus-II backs you'll get 1/1,600 on that body+lens combo.
Yair
-
Before you get the wrong impression, I only joined Leaf AFTER I bought a Leaf Aptus.
I was in the same situation as you, what to buy the Phase one, Leaf or Hasselblad.
For me Hasselblad was choice number one BUT I did not do it because I don't find the closed system to be all that attractive.
I also sometimes love to shoot film, and the lens prices for Hasselblad are much higher than the Mamiya lenses while in reality the quality is equal or very close.
So it was between Phase one and Leaf.
Phase one is great for long exposures but I find the skintones on the Leaf to be better.
In the end I started asking around and found that the Leaf team was much quicker with their answers than the Phase one persons I asked.
But in the end both agreed that for Fashion/Beauty and my style the Leaf would be the best choice.
I've shot with Phase One, Leaf and Hasselblad in the mean time and never found I made the wrong choice.
The P65+ is wonderful but overal I just love the Dalsa look and in the lower segment you get that with the Aptus22 or AptusII5.
Again I would really get the biggest sensor, the Aptus22 is 48 x 36 mm and the P30+ is smaller, this is for me a big thing for model/portrait work.
But also remember that the high ISO performance of the P30+ would be better than the Leaf series. (but it has microlenses)
BUT the Leaf can go down to ISO25 (AptusII5 and Aptus22) which is really nice if you want to shoot outside with strobes and still get a nice DOF.
So before jumping to a conclusion that I would be in the Leaf camp and therefor advise Leaf please consider above.
I do love Leaf and yes I promote them where ever I go, but I'm not paid by them (I wish ) I'm just very happy with the choice I made and that was a choice that I did A LOT of research for (longer than 6 months to be honest )
-
This is probably a newbie question, but one of the main reasons I'm getting into medium format is because I have heard that they can sync to 1/800 of a second. I know that hasselblad can do this and so can the Mamiya 645DF and Phase One DF.
Hi Eric,
Schneider PQS lenses for Rolleiflex/Sinar Hy6 offer 1/1000 of a second :-)
Pascal
-
Hi Eric,
I just stumbled upon this thread, and not sure if you made your purchase yet. I am a digital tech trainer in Toronto, and we also are one of the five largest photo equipment rental providers in Toronto, having many different medium format digital backs, with and without digital techs. We often rent to pros that are looking to buy and want to test drive. We also do equipment consulting and training.
Many good points have been brought up in this thread on which digital back brand to buy. We have extensively researched and purchased 8 Phase One backs, 2 Hasselblad backs, and a Leaf back, along with full systems of Hasselblad H, V, Mamiya AFD, Fuji GX680, and Betterlight / Sinar. We have tested and compared all three to each other, and are still continuing more testing when we have time. Please post whether you are still interested in more info, and I can jot down some notes on the key "real" differences between them.
Best,
Mir Lada
-
But if I have a 645 AFD i or ii can I buy shutter leaf lenses and have it still sync at 1/800 of a second? By the way I would be using this with a p30+ back.
Thank You,
Eric
since your question was if a 645 afd II or III will work with the leaf shutter lenses,
the guys from phase or mamiya would probably say 'yes for sure!'
the only problem is your sync will be 1/125
it has been promised over and over that this combination will work one day (at least with the afd III)
but seems we are supposed to dump our camera and get the flashy new df if we need some faster sync speed.
-
Hey guys. I happen to have e-mailed with a Mamiya rep last week about the Leaf Shutter lenses and the older bodies. Mamiya has said they plan a firmware update that will allow the 645 AFDIII to be compatible with the new LS lenses. The rep said they haven't yet released the update and have no timeframe to announce. For now, it's a not insignificant advantage for Hasselblad. Their whole H line is all lens shutters... oh well!
-
I know, I want either the 645DF or a hassy body. I have not decided which yet. But unless someone can tell me why a leaf back as opposed to a phase one, I am going to stick with the p30+ that I had originally wanted. I understand why you support leaf frank. I viewed their website and saw you talking about it . Does anyone have some information on why the mamiya would be better vs. a hasselblad h1 or h2? I'm going tuesday to go try them both to see which feels better, but would like to know from a technical standpoint.
Thank You,
Eric
i have shot with a earlier mamiya/phase, contax/phase, and owned both leaf and phase on an h1(updated to h2).
if you want leaf shutter only, i think the h1 is a nice camera. they are everywhere, relatively cheap, and the finders are large and bright. the hassy is slightly buggy, but hasnt caused anymore disruption than having to turn the camera on and off- and thats only every odd shoot, so not a big deal.
i like the grip of the h1. and i use the waist level finder a lot.(cant do that with the mamiya)
the lenses dont have a very nice blur, if you style has blur. the contax has the nicest blur- not sure about the mamiya (except the old 1.9 80mm manual lens is really nice, and the fit on to the afd).
but the mamiya gives you the ability for leaf shutter lenses and focal plane shutter. this would be of even more use if mamiya actually sold a fast lens, but they dont (2.8 is the fastest, except the really old manual lens mentioned above).
imo though, i think the mamiya is a horrible plasticy crappy feeling camera to use. the hassy isnt at all perfect, but its worlds ahead in handling.
i get told by the phase people that the mamiya/phase camera has improved since i used them, but they look just as bad, i cant see how they have changed. they still have no removable finder, which means a bad back if you are shooting low for a few days in a row.
paul
-
... Mamiya has said they plan a firmware update that will allow the 645 AFDIII to be compatible with the new LS lenses. The rep said they haven't yet released the update and have no timeframe to announce. For now, it's a not insignificant advantage for Hasselblad. Their whole H line is all lens shutters... oh well!
the rumour of a firmware update has been around for at least 18 months.
about a year ago i was told by a mamiya technican that its actually a hardware problem.
if i remember right, an electric contact is missing on the old af's so no way to solve the problem according to the technican.
and anyway there is no big interest by the manufacturer to help their customers even though they made a lot of promises - they want us to buy the new df (that is supposed to be so much better than the afd III) and sooner or later the even more brilliant df II that - even though it will be still last centuries technology - is supposed to be even greater than the df and definitely will have no shutter lag anymore
-
imo though, i think the mamiya is a horrible plasticy crappy feeling camera to use. the hassy isnt at all perfect, but its worlds ahead in handling.
Maybe not.
-
but the mamiya gives you the ability for leaf shutter lenses and focal plane shutter. this would be of even more use if mamiya actually sold a fast lens, but they dont (2.8 is the fastest, except the really old manual lens mentioned above).
imo though, i think the mamiya is a horrible plasticy crappy feeling camera to use. the hassy isnt at all perfect, but its worlds ahead in handling.
i get told by the phase people that the mamiya/phase camera has improved since i used them, but they look just as bad, i cant see how they have changed. they still have no removable finder, which means a bad back if you are shooting low for a few days in a row.
paul
Maybe not.
It's true that Hasselblad has (1) lens that is faster than 2.8 (the HC100/2.2 vs 110/2.8), but many of their lenses are still faster than Hasselblad lenses (35/2.8>HC35/3.5, 45/2.8 & 55/2.8>HC50/3.5, 150/2.8>150/3.2).
Indeed, none of these cameras are perfect, but the new DF camera (Mamiya or Phase One, either way) is not a horrible plasticky crappy feeling camera. It has improved significantly. Generational improvements from AFD>AFDII>AFDIII were very modest IMO, but AFDIII>DF was a significant improvement. While the shutter lag and auto focus improvements have been mentioned the most, I feel the actual fit/finish/form, which affects handling, is just as significant.
http://www.captureintegration.com/2010/06/...-one-df-camera/ (http://www.captureintegration.com/2010/06/13/bip-is-a-hit-bip-on-the-phase-one-df-camera/)
http://www.captureintegration.com/2010/02/...s-would-happen/ (http://www.captureintegration.com/2010/02/08/i-never-believed-this-would-happen/)
I find the feel of the DF camera very pleasing now. Considering what Phase One had to work with, I think it was quite an achievement to improve the product so dramatically. I have had Hasselblad H camera users try it out and express a preference for the feel and handling of the DF camera. I find the two cameras (DF and H) very equivalent now, and choice more a matter of feature preferences, rather than handling.
Steve Hendrix
-
http://www.captureintegration.com/2010/06/...-one-df-camera/ (http://www.captureintegration.com/2010/06/13/bip-is-a-hit-bip-on-the-phase-one-df-camera/)
Steve Hendrix
I dunno, Steve. You still have to look extraordinarily closely to see differences between the PhaseOne AF and DF. I know that internally the autofocus etc. is supposed to be much improved. But externally, it's just as "minor incremental" as the AFD-II-III transitions. There is no "wow! big change" factor to it. For example, removable finders - now that would have been a big change in the right direction! In fact, I think that dropping support for film backs was a change in the wrong direction. Even if it rarely gets used, it removes one of the versatility attractions of MF SLRs over their smaller format brethren. All this talk from Phase One about "open systems" - I can't take it seriously when they actually closed off their camera system to film use.
Ray
-
I dunno, Steve. You still have to look extraordinarily closely to see differences between the PhaseOne AF and DF. I know that internally the autofocus etc. is supposed to be much improved. But externally, it's just as "minor incremental" as the AFD-II-III transitions. There is no "wow! big change" factor to it. For example, removable finders - now that would have been a big change in the right direction! In fact, I think that dropping support for film backs was a change in the wrong direction. Even if it rarely gets used, it removes one of the versatility attractions of MF SLRs over their smaller format brethren. All this talk from Phase One about "open systems" - I can't take it seriously when they actually closed off their camera system to film use.
Ray
Ray, it is true that on paper you might have to look close to see cosmetic differences in the move from the Phase 645AF to the Phase DF, but as an actual user I can tell you that the quality of build improvement is definitely there. My use with 645 series started with the Mamiya 645AF, to the 645AFD, then the Phase 645AF and finally Phase 645DF. Each generation marked only incremental performance improvements, but not for the DF. I was actually very happy with the Phase AF, and placed my name on the wait-list for the new DF when it was announced. I patiently waited and told Dave Gallagher that I was fine waiting as I thought the Phase 645AF was working just dandy. Then Dave came out for the 2d Capture Integration in Carmel - Pigs in a Blanket in February this year. Dave brought out the new Phase 645DF which I tried. The improvements were so dramatic in terms of performance over the 645AF, that my previous patience and satisfaction with my 645AF quickly waned and became one of "Dave, I want my 645DF, and I want it now."
I do agree with you with some minor sadness of losing the ability to use a filmback with the 645DF, but in all reality, I have difficulty remembering the last time I shot with film.
ken
-
I dunno, Steve. You still have to look extraordinarily closely to see differences between the PhaseOne AF and DF. I know that internally the autofocus etc. is supposed to be much improved. But externally, it's just as "minor incremental" as the AFD-II-III transitions. There is no "wow! big change" factor to it. For example, removable finders - now that would have been a big change in the right direction! In fact, I think that dropping support for film backs was a change in the wrong direction. Even if it rarely gets used, it removes one of the versatility attractions of MF SLRs over their smaller format brethren. All this talk from Phase One about "open systems" - I can't take it seriously when they actually closed off their camera system to film use.
Ray
I agree Ray, it's unfortunate about not being able to use film. Neither does the H3DII/H4D, for that matter. I'm certain there was a lot of debate over it and I am sure it centered over the likelihood that keeping film compatibility would restrict other aspects. I won't say this as fact, but I have been told, in so many terms, this was the case.
Also, 100%, would love a waist level finder. To me, the viewfinder is the element I would like to see the most change with on the Phase One camera.
However, my "Ah, yes" moment, which is not quite the same as "wow!" (It takes a lot for me to enthusiastically say "wow" to a product) was written with regard to the overall improvements, not only focused on the external changes. So, I stand by my blog statement of the DF being an "Ah, yes", rather than a "well, it's a little bit better". And this is my personal user opinion, not just a sales opinion. If you take a camera and upgrade the auto focus performance to the point where - for me - it is largely unusable in the way I photograph, to a state where it is very usable, that is not incremental.
And handling to many photographers is a key component to capturing an image. The AFD-II-III cameras have always had a low reputation for fit/finish/handling. To me, in my opinion, the DF was a significant improvement. In a subtle yet important way, it felt like a different camera to me. As you say, a waist level finder would indeed be a dramatic change and worthy of a "wow, they did it" reaction, perhaps. And viewfinders are certainly one of the most important elements of a camera, absolutely. If they had added a waist level finder capability to the DF, in addition to the improved fit/finish/handling, I may very well have been forced to elicit a "Wow!".
But I think my wording and description is accurate and appropriate. Our clients who used AFD-II-III that have upgraded to DF are more effusive and enthusiastic than I am, the guy who is selling it to them. I think that is relevant. I believe the improved grip/handling (and overall improvements) is definitely a bigger jump than in past upgrades. Last week one of our consistent rental clients came in and tested the DF. He typically rents P45+/P65+ on H1/H2 cameras from us. In his words, he now prefers the feel and handling of the DF to the H camera and said, "Just get a few more Schneider Leaf Shutter lenses in there and I'll switch." None of my clients ever said that to me about the AFD-II-III series.
Steve Hendrix
-
Some of you will find this article (http://www.bjp-online.com/british-journal-of-photography/test/1726948/all) relevant/ useful
-
Some of you will find this article (http://www.bjp-online.com/british-journal-of-photography/test/1726948/all) relevant/ useful
Yair,
I think you need to send them a better 800 iso shot. If they think that crop looks good well, I gotta wonder if they cleaned their screen.
BC
-
Yair,
I think you need to send them a better 800 iso shot. If they think that crop looks good well, I gotta wonder if they cleaned their screen.
BC
The print looks very good
-
It's true that Hasselblad has (1) lens that is faster than 2.8 (the HC100/2.2 vs 110/2.8), but many of their lenses are still faster than Hasselblad lenses (35/2.8>HC35/3.5, 45/2.8 & 55/2.8>HC50/3.5, 150/2.8>150/3.2).
Indeed, none of these cameras are perfect, but the new DF camera (Mamiya or Phase One, either way) is not a horrible plasticky crappy feeling camera. It has improved significantly. Generational improvements from AFD>AFDII>AFDIII were very modest IMO, but AFDIII>DF was a significant improvement. While the shutter lag and auto focus improvements have been mentioned the most, I feel the actual fit/finish/form, which affects handling, is just as significant.
http://www.captureintegration.com/2010/06/...-one-df-camera/ (http://www.captureintegration.com/2010/06/13/bip-is-a-hit-bip-on-the-phase-one-df-camera/)
http://www.captureintegration.com/2010/02/...s-would-happen/ (http://www.captureintegration.com/2010/02/08/i-never-believed-this-would-happen/)
I find the feel of the DF camera very pleasing now. Considering what Phase One had to work with, I think it was quite an achievement to improve the product so dramatically. I have had Hasselblad H camera users try it out and express a preference for the feel and handling of the DF camera. I find the two cameras (DF and H) very equivalent now, and choice more a matter of feature preferences, rather than handling.
Steve Hendrix
ok steve, my next free day i get ill get down to the local phase shop and have a play with the phase version. but not having a waist finder is a major handling issue, and makes many shots impossible without it.
one great feature over the h1/2 will be the promised vertical grip though, when ever this gets released.
(http://www.neutralday.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/645df_lf-350x350.jpg)
and another feature that is way ahead of all the the medium format cameras with the h1 is the eye cup- it works really well. the contax and mamiya only has one that opens 3 sides, isnt soft, and really doesn't stop light. it is one frustration of mine when shooting the contax in the sun (same level of eyecup as mamiya). and theres no way to add a better eyecup as an accessory. this is an issue that so well sorted in the cine area, that im surprised the camera companies havent picked up on it.
paul
-
That BJP review of the DF was hardly very useful - it had a couple of obvious errors, which didn't inspire confidence in the reviewer.
But you know what would be really useful? A page comparing, in tabular form, the differences between the DF and the P1AF/AFDIII, and heck even between the DF and the AFD and AFDII.
Mamiya produced such a page comparing the AF, AFD and AFDII. I found it extremely useful in deciding that of the three, the AFD was the one I wanted. Knowing exactly how they differed was key to making an informed decision. I think that we are still too much in the dark about precisely what the DF is.
Over to you, Phase One. One or two pages will do nicely. Take Mamiya's table as the starting point, and extend it to the newer models.
-
That BJP review of the DF was hardly very useful - it had a couple of obvious errors, which didn't inspire confidence in the reviewer.
But you know what would be really useful? A page comparing, in tabular form, the differences between the DF and the P1AF/AFDIII, and heck even between the DF and the AFD and AFDII.
Mamiya produced such a page comparing the AF, AFD and AFDII. I found it extremely useful in deciding that of the three, the AFD was the one I wanted. Knowing exactly how they differed was key to making an informed decision. I think that we are still too much in the dark about precisely what the DF is.
Over to you, Phase One. One or two pages will do nicely. Take Mamiya's table as the starting point, and extend it to the newer models.
Ondebanks,
I can do this off the top of my head should you wish to call with serious interest.
A blog entry is very possible, but honestly most of our customers with serious interests are willing to put the DF in their hands for testing based on our overall recommendation and therefore such a blog entry is lower on our priority list than other information.
-
ok steve, my next free day i get ill get down to the local phase shop and have a play with the phase version. but not having a waist finder is a major handling issue, and makes many shots impossible without it.
one great feature over the h1/2 will be the promised vertical grip though, when ever this gets released.
(http://www.neutralday.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/645df_lf-350x350.jpg)
and another feature that is way ahead of all the the medium format cameras with the h1 is the eye cup- it works really well. the contax and mamiya only has one that opens 3 sides, isnt soft, and really doesn't stop light. it is one frustration of mine when shooting the contax in the sun (same level of eyecup as mamiya). and theres no way to add a better eyecup as an accessory. this is an issue that so well sorted in the cine area, that im surprised the camera companies havent picked up on it.
You can use the 90 degree periscope finder with the DF (or other Mamiya/Phase).
As far as I'm concerned a waist level finder would be welcome but including it in a camera design creates it's own issues of tolerances, dust, longevity etc. I'm not saying I don't think it would be worth it, but bare in mind the number of users of waist level finders is a pretty small part of the already small MF market. If you own a DF and a back then you can use that same DF with an RZ Pro IID with it's gorgeous extra-large waist level finder (or the normal finder).
Doug Peterson ()
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
RSS Feed: Subscribe (http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/)
Buy Capture One at 10% off (http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/)
Personal Work (http://www.doug-peterson.com/)
-
and another feature that is way ahead of all the the medium format cameras with the h1 is the eye cup- it works really well. the contax and mamiya only has one that opens 3 sides, isnt soft, and really doesn't stop light. it is one frustration of mine when shooting the contax in the sun (same level of eyecup as mamiya). and theres no way to add a better eyecup as an accessory. this is an issue that so well sorted in the cine area, that im surprised the camera companies havent picked up on it.
Agreed the DF could use such an accessory - When I bought my first dSLR (an Olympus E10) I found a custom telescope eyepiece that was rubber and would partially (intentionally) collapse as you put your eye to the viewfinder, completely blocking the light and allowing complete isolation of the viewfinder image.
-
You can use the 90 degree periscope finder with the DF (or other Mamiya/Phase).
As far as I'm concerned a waist level finder would be welcome but including it in a camera design creates it's own issues of tolerances, dust, longevity etc. I'm not saying I don't think it would be worth it, but bare in mind the number of users of waist level finders is a pretty small part of the already small MF market. If you own a DF and a back then you can use that same DF with an RZ Pro IID with it's gorgeous extra-large waist level finder (or the normal finder).
Doug Peterson ()
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
RSS Feed: Subscribe (http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/)
Buy Capture One at 10% off (http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/)
Personal Work (http://www.doug-peterson.com/)
its not about whether someone uses the feature or not, its the "idea" of solving a problem that everyone wants. otherwise people wouldn't be driving around the suburbs in new 4X4's that have never touched the mud.
if it helps anyone take a shot that they wouldn't otherwise be able get, then its worth it. everybody had waist level finders a few years ago, even if they didn't use them much, when you did need them they were absolutely indispensable. its also something that you have up your sleeve as a "pro" feature that canon doesn't have canon (theres not many).
have you ever actually used a 90degree eye piece thing? ive tried canon ones and mamiya ones and they are so bloody hard to see through, basically useless. dark and weirdly magnified, nothing like looking at any waist finder. whats the big deal about making it? contax has it, hy6, hassy, rz, they all have them, and nobody complains about tolerances or sealing. even the old mamiya m645 had it. i honestly think its the cheap ass designers of the original afd doing a cost- effectiveness analysis of it, and saying they will save $100 per camera if they design it this way. i think the camera are throwing away money with not being able to sell more "add ons" to their system. i remember in the old days when you bought a camera, you bought all sorts of viewfinders, waist level finders, "speed finders", all bits to help the company make profit.
paul
-
ok steve, my next free day i get ill get down to the local phase shop and have a play with the phase version. but not having a waist finder is a major handling issue, and makes many shots impossible without it.
one great feature over the h1/2 will be the promised vertical grip though, when ever this gets released.
(http://www.neutralday.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/645df_lf-350x350.jpg)
and another feature that is way ahead of all the the medium format cameras with the h1 is the eye cup- it works really well. the contax and mamiya only has one that opens 3 sides, isnt soft, and really doesn't stop light. it is one frustration of mine when shooting the contax in the sun (same level of eyecup as mamiya). and theres no way to add a better eyecup as an accessory. this is an issue that so well sorted in the cine area, that im surprised the camera companies havent picked up on it.
paul
Paul, we agree on the older Mamiya versions at least, wasn't disagreeing there. Nor trying to switch you. Just that - to me - the DF doesn't really resemble that description. It still doesn't have a waist level finder, and I agree with you, a waist level finder is a great thing to have. You might not use it all the time, but when you do, it's great. An angle finder doesn't really compare, although the one for the DF works well enough. But it's just not the same thing. I loved the idea of the waist level finder with the Hy6/AFi because you could rotate the back and shoot to a vertical orientation with auto focus lenses.
Steve Hendrix
-
Paul, we agree on the older Mamiya versions at least, wasn't disagreeing there. Nor trying to switch you. Just that - to me - the DF doesn't really resemble that description. It still doesn't have a waist level finder, and I agree with you, a waist level finder is a great thing to have. You might not use it all the time, but when you do, it's great. An angle finder doesn't really compare, although the one for the DF works well enough. But it's just not the same thing. I loved the idea of the waist level finder with the Hy6/AFi because you could rotate the back and shoot to a vertical orientation with auto focus lenses.
Steve Hendrix
to be fair to the mamiya/phase option, you do have the rz camera option as well. i havent actually used a back on the rz, but it seems like and ok option, on those shoots that you need to shoot both formats, and still need leaf shutter lenses.
-
if it helps anyone take a shot that they wouldn't otherwise be able get, then its worth it. everybody had waist level finders a few years ago, even if they didn't use them much, when you did need them they were absolutely indispensable.
paul
+1 to Paul.
In fact, +10!
On Saturday night, as I knelt on the ground and craned my neck upwards to frame northern Cygnus in the viewfinder of my equatorially-mounted Mamiya AFD, I really missed the WLF I'd have used on my film M645s in the same situation.
-
Ondebanks,
I can do this off the top of my head should you wish to call with serious interest.
A blog entry is very possible, but honestly most of our customers with serious interests are willing to put the DF in their hands for testing based on our overall recommendation and therefore such a blog entry is lower on our priority list than other information.
Doug, thanks for the offer. A couple of problems though -
1) I can't afford "serious interest" right now;
2) Putting the DF in my hands, in your premises, would involve transatlantic flights
None of which means I should not be able to access the information I'm looking for. Even if I am at present an armchair theorist, a window shopper, a spreadsheet comparator: it is still in the interests of Mamiya/Phase One to tell me, and people like me, as much information as possible about what they are selling.
I don't believe it should be the job of dealers like yourself to have to go scrounging out and blogging this information - that, in my view, is beyond the call of duty. It's the manufacturer's responsibility to document their products fully and to address questions from the market. They're hardly paying you to do it?
Cheers,
Ray