Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: EricDosSantosPhotography on July 09, 2010, 06:30:08 pm
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Hey everyone,
I have been a contributing member of the Fredmiranda forum for quite a while now. I posted a thread there asking about Digital Medium Format cameras and they told me this is the best place to go for information on that.
I currently have a D3X and am considering selling it to buy a DMF camera. I had never previously thought about buying one because I thought they were way too much out of my price range. But recently I've found that I can get an H3Dii 31 for about the same price as my D3X or a H3Dii 39 for a bit more. I was wondering if its worth the change? From what I've seen, I can tell the difference between medium format and full frame just as I can tell the difference between full frame and crop sensor. FPS and iso are of no value to me as I always shoot with my lighting and therefore my FPS are limited by my profoto 7B pack.
Any information or recommendations on what to get besides the H3Dii would be awesome! I am trying to keep my medium format setup under 12K
Thank You,
Eric DosSantos
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Medium format digital gives you a significant increase in image quality for large prints, such as greater than 20x30" at the expense of much slower operation and increased weight. Focusing is also more critical as format sizes increase. I just finished make a print comparing a Leica M9 with 50mm summicron, Canon 1DS MkIII with 24-105mm at 50mm (not Canon's sharpest lens, though) and a Phase One P65+ back with 75-150mm D zoom. Print size was equivalent to 30x40 for the P1 and 30x45 for 35mm format. The Phase One P65+ produced a MUCH better image, while the Canon was in last place. Although the Leica has fewer MPix, it lacks the blur filter of the Nikon & Canons, so with the produced intermediate results.
So look at how much you plan to enlarge your image, which is really a major deciding factor.
Paul
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Hey Guys,
I'm mainly concerned about which medium format camera to buy? I see most people out there have phase one backs. or atleast people selling them. Am I taking the wrong route going with a hasselblad? Should I be getting a phase one? My D3X is almost sold and I need as much information as I can get. I would love to hear what you guys recommend within my price range.
Thank You,
Eric
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you may also consider Mamiya. I have reviews of two Mamiya cameras, and the Leica S2 on my blog. Hope that helps.
David
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Hey Guys,
I'm mainly concerned about which medium format camera to buy? I see most people out there have phase one backs. or atleast people selling them. Am I taking the wrong route going with a hasselblad? Should I be getting a phase one? My D3X is almost sold and I need as much information as I can get. I would love to hear what you guys recommend within my price range.
Thank You,
Eric
Hi Eric,
we always liked the Dalsa sensor better than the Kodak colorwise. Buying into MFD should not be done in a hurry. You need to take a deeper look at all your options. There are so many things to consider, it depends on what you are going to do with it. We are using the H Bodies with leaf backs, it is working fine for us, ymmv. I recommend to have a spare body though, we have to use ours regulary when the first one needs its service (which is happening around 70000 actuations).
Cheers, Ulf
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Hey Eric,
You seem to do work (very nice work) which would benefit from the quality of MF, but do bear in mind that MF cameras are vastly less user-friendly or versatile than dslrs. It's a lot of hassle for a meaningful but often not mind-blowing amount of quality.
Don't mean to discourage you, but just a word of realism.
As for 'Blad vs. Phase, both are good. If you're a working pro, your choice should come down to who will support you better locally, and which feels better in the hand.
Lastly, Pentax looks to have a very interesting entrant in the field coming, one which will be much more of a modern dslr-type camera than the existing choices, so you might want to wait a few months to see what happens.
- N.
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Eric, you seem to have interesting pictures but I simply can't get them to show without the most extraordinary amount of hassle. They act as if they want to evade the pointer - they won.
Rob C
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Lots of info here at L.L. of course, but you will also find some good discussions on just such a topic at GetDPI (http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=10). Some of the same folks post on both forums, but there are some who don't frequently show up in both places. There are some threads that are directly related to your quest.
MFD is a big step and deserves lots of research.
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=10 (http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=10)
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If I were you, I'd seriously look at the Leaf Aptus-II 5. The resolution should cover your needs and provide the speed for the type of photography you do. It's a cheaper solution to the Phase One 22mp while providing a better LCD screen and (I believe) a Dalsa sensor over the Phase Kodak sensor. The camera body is a toss up. You can find great deals on the Contax 645. The H1 is the most widely used body with digital backs. Phase One and Mamiya have great options as well. Of course, this is something you will need to demo. No one can tell you what will work best for you. You cant really go wrong. They all have great options.
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Thank You so much for your guys' help! As far as going with medium format, I'm pretty much decided that it is something I really want to do. My style of photography is very concentrated on sharpness and clarity. I absolutely love detail in photos and I love the look that medium format gives. I don't know how I would be able to try out all the medium format cameras without renting them all. And that will cost a fraction of the price of the camera. Someone mentioned using a contax 645. I believe contax lenses are all manual correct? I am a pretty big fan of autofocus, and I know that autofocus isn't as good with medium format, so that would be a pretty big criteria for me. That is why I was considering the H3D ii. I read that they have a pretty decent autofocus system. If there is anyone in the San Diego area that has a medium format camera or a few, and would let me come over and take a look at it. I would love to take you out to lunch or buy a couple of drinks on me
I still haven't heard much advice about the value of the H3Dii 39. I can get one for around 12.5K is that a good deal? Or the H3D ii 31 for about 7.5-8. Also, is the 80mm 2.8 lens that comes with the camera good? What other lenses do you guys recommend? I'm a fan of zooms, but I've heard that medium format zooms aren't very good, and the ones that are are pretty expensive and VERY heavy. I have almost no use for anything wider than 24mm on full frame 35mm. Not sure what that exactly equates to on medium format. But I do like to go to atleast 135mm on 35mm full frame. Any suggestions on lenses?
Thank You again for all the help thus far, you guys are awesome!
Eric
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Also forgot to mention. I can get a good deal on a P30+ back (slightly dented corner but still works fine) and an H1 body. I have head that Phase one has a really good warranty program and a really good program for turning in old backs for newer ones. Does any one have any more information on this? If its as easy as people say this could be the route to take.
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Eric,
You will be astonished at how much irritation $10-$15K buys you when you move to MF. For this reason, I really, really, urge you make contact with either your local dealers (preferably) or one of the big national outfits that are active on LL and get a professionally-guided walk-through on the cameras, lenses, SOFTWARE!! etc. For a well-heeled amateur, service is no biggie. For an up-and-coming professional, it can be the difference between a double-truck spread and leaping out a third floor window.
If you can get through 'official' channels, it will cost more, but imagine buying a $10K camera and having an issue. Ouch. I am NOT saying these are unreliable devices. I AM saying that you need to you someone has your back. This is true on the buying end as well. A good dealer will let you use the gear first. And I don't mean in the parking lot, I mean on set, in real shoots. That's what you need to make a meaningful choice.
This is perhaps even more true on the software front. The biggest hassle with blad (sorry) is Phocus, which I think you still have to use to decode their proprietary compressed camera RAWS into a useable raw format. Also, they seem to have a LOT of lens correction tweaks in their software which you need to make the most of the glass. When I last used a blad, I found Phocus to be a seriously Phucked piece of software. I have a few hundred gigs of images from a trip I gave up completely because of the agony of using it.
*That said, I gather it has been updated and is much better now.* Also, tons and tons and tons of pros use it successfully. But you need to know what it does and how it does it before you commit to the cameras.
In terms of quality, as between the 31MP and 39MP backs, you need to test this for yourself. The advantage of the 31MP chips is speed of capture. Some also had micro lenses I believe, which had some utility in avoiding moire. (Don't quote me on this - you need to research this) But you must try them in action to know which is right for you.
I also echo the 'Fer Chrissake don't sell your D3x" comments. There's virtually no working pro in your field without a 35dslr....for a reason!! Unless you think you can rent cost-effectively every time you need a quick, convenient camera, or serious AF, it's a mistake to sell the Nikon. Pros need a camera they can just pickup, in any situation, with one lens, and go 'bang-bang-bang' with focus and exposure automatically spot-on. You capture a lot of low-hanging fruit from a business stand-point this way.
If you just absolutely have to sell you Camry to buy that Lotus Elise at least keep the lenses so you can worry about only renting a body. If you're not close to a great rental shop whom you like. DO NOT GO WITHOUT 35mm...... If you MUST, then get a Sony or something at a fraction of the price to fill the gap.
Have fun with this -- a lot of us know what it's like when this bug bites....and do share your adventure (and pictures!) with us.
Cheers,
- N.
ps. Don't bother with Contax. It's a well and truly dead system. It was absolutely beautiful (and fully AF) but it's gone. Buried. Don't go there, it's a dead-end. It doesn't make you cool to have one, just obsolete :-) Those who use them have generally had them for years and keep them because they are so solid, but don't go there now. (And I say that as a devotee of the mechanical ethos which Contax epitomizes)
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Eric,
You will be astonished at how much irritation $10-$15K buys you when you move to MF. For this reason, I really, really, urge you make contact with either your local dealers (preferably) or one of the big national outfits that are active on LL and get a professionally-guided walk-through on the cameras, lenses, SOFTWARE!! etc. For a well-heeled amateur, service is no biggie. For an up-and-coming professional, it can be the difference between a double-truck spread and leaping out a third floor window.
If you can get through 'official' channels, it will cost more, but imagine buying a $10K camera and having an issue. Ouch. I am NOT saying these are unreliable devices. I AM saying that you need to you someone has your back. This is true on the buying end as well. A good dealer will let you use the gear first. And I don't mean in the parking lot, I mean on set, in real shoots. That's what you need to make a meaningful choice.
This is perhaps even more true on the software front. The biggest hassle with blad (sorry) is Phocus, which I think you still have to use to decode their proprietary compressed camera RAWS into a useable raw format. Also, they seem to have a LOT of lens correction tweaks in their software which you need to make the most of the glass. When I last used a blad, I found Phocus to be a seriously Phucked piece of software. I have a few hundred gigs of images from a trip I gave up completely because of the agony of using it.
*That said, I gather it has been updated and is much better now.* Also, tons and tons and tons of pros use it successfully. But you need to know what it does and how it does it before you commit to the cameras.
In terms of quality, as between the 31MP and 39MP backs, you need to test this for yourself. The advantage of the 31MP chips is speed of capture. Some also had micro lenses I believe, which had some utility in avoiding moire. (Don't quote me on this - you need to research this) But you must try them in action to know which is right for you.
I also echo the 'Fer Chrissake don't sell your D3x" comments. There's virtually no working pro in your field without a 35dslr....for a reason!! Unless you think you can rent cost-effectively every time you need a quick, convenient camera, or serious AF, it's a mistake to sell the Nikon. Pros need a camera they can just pickup, in any situation, with one lens, and go 'bang-bang-bang' with focus and exposure automatically spot-on. You capture a lot of low-hanging fruit from a business stand-point this way.
If you just absolutely have to sell you Camry to buy that Lotus Elise at least keep the lenses so you can worry about only renting a body. If you're not close to a great rental shop whom you like. DO NOT GO WITHOUT 35mm...... If you MUST, then get a Sony or something at a fraction of the price to fill the gap.
Have fun with this -- a lot of us know what it's like when this bug bites....and do share your adventure (and pictures!) with us.
Cheers,
- N.
ps. Don't bother with Contax. It's a well and truly dead system. It was absolutely beautiful (and fully AF) but it's gone. Buried. Don't go there, it's a dead-end. It doesn't make you cool to have one, just obsolete :-) Those who use them have generally had them for years and keep them because they are so solid, but don't go there now. (And I say that as a devotee of the mechanical ethos which Contax epitomizes)
Funny comment about the lotus elise, because I just sold mine 6 months ago lol to buy the D3X and get my photography career started. I still have a D2X and a D700 so don't worry about me selling my DSLR's that is definitely not what I'm doing. I still want my D2X for low end clients. And my D700 for anytime I need high iso. The thing about renting, is that I don't know if I went to spend almost a thousand dollars trying out all the options before I even get one for myself.
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I feel very passionately about this advice:
Do not find "deals" on backs/cameras and then evaluate if they are right for you. Instead find out what back/camera is right for you and then go find a "deal" on that. This will likely be a system you keep, shoot, expand, and upgrade for a long time so jumping in to save a few k on a particular deal on a system that doesn't fit like a glove will only waste major money down the road. In my (highly biased) opinion a "deal" should also include an evaluation of which dealer/source you trust with a large purchase and with the many after-sales questions, concerns, issues you may have as well as your future expansion and upgrades of your kit. I would (selfishly) offer us (Capture Integration) as a dealer with a history of highly rewarding customer relationships (here is a partial client list (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/our-clients/) from across the US).
There are very few (if any) "bad" solutions in this market, but each solution will have its own advantages and disadvantages and as a few people have mentioned above you can have a very frustrating experience if you find a system weak in an area you find important. To suss out these subtle-at-first huge-in-the-long-run differences there is no substitute for actually shooting with the system. Many dealers, including us, offer free in-person testing of any system and discounted rentals anywhere in the country which can be counted towards purchase.
Some differences to look out for:
Body
- How does it "feel" (highly personal/subjective and highly important)
- Focal Plane vs. Leaf Shutter vs. Both
- Finish/Color/Look (may or may not be important to you)
- AF speed in low light, AF tracking for continuous subjects
Software
- Does it support dSLR raw processing / tethering: if so what are the limitations and quality of the support
- How stable/fast is the software, how fully featured
- Do other techs know/like the dedicated software (in case you need help on a shoot will they know what to do)
Lenses
- How well does the line of lenses perform
- Are there less expensive legacy lenses which can help fill in your lens kit
- Are there strong performing fast lenses (e.g. f/2.8)
- How much does each lens weight, how large is it, is the weight balanced to the front or rear
- How quickly do the lenses exhibit diffraction when stopped down
Back
- How fast can you change important settings like ISO
- How fast can the back shoot a sequence of images
- Can the back accommodate your particular needs for ISO and long exposures
- What is the build quality of the back and what is their reputation for reliability
Financial/Other
- What is the history of the manufacturer's upgrade paths, have they ever been discontinued or suspended?
- What is the cost of the entire system including tax, shipping, a few lenses, accessories, warranty, batteries etc
- What discount/specials/"deals" are available; what is the difference between street and list prices for each system
I'm just gonna stop the list here as it's becoming obvious that I can't ask unbiased questions (actually several of them are so heavily biased they even make me twinge a bit :-P but raise valid points), and the list is too long and too specific to each photographers needs. Only highlights the fact that nothing other than personal testing will suffice for such a large/important purchase.
Doug Peterson ()
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
RSS Feed: Subscribe (http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/)
Buy Capture One at 10% off (http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/)
Personal Work (http://www.doug-peterson.com/)
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The thing about renting, is that I don't know if I went to spend almost a thousand dollars trying out all the options before I even get one for myself.
Maybe you would enjoy a working vacation to Miami** :-). We'd be happy to go shooting with you over a weekend or during the week for free (whenever we are in-person we don't charge rental fees). Roundrip flight and hotels might be significantly less than a rental, plus you'd receive top-notch instruction and you could relax afterwards in South Beach - new home of Lebron James! We can get you nearly any Leaf/Phase system for evaluation and we have an H3D-II 50 for comparison*.
In any case any costs you incur to rent or otherwise evaluate the system will be a small percentage of your total financial outlay and will be MUCH less than the loss you take to switch or sell your system if you make the wrong choice (for your needs).
*We do not have any H4D systems but I'm sure you can find multiple Hasselblad dealers who would be happy to help with that
**Or Atlanta
Doug Peterson ()
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
RSS Feed: Subscribe (http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/)
Buy Capture One at 10% off (http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/)
Personal Work (http://www.doug-peterson.com/)
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Hi Eric,
in your equation you should also add the Sinar Hy6 / Leaf AFi systems. Rock solid cameras and great Schneider AF lenses plus excellent digital backs from Sinar and Leaf. Regrettably Leaf does no longer offer the AFi line but its backs can still be found from several sources. The Sinar systems can all be had new. Check http://www.sinar.ch (http://www.sinar.ch) for more info.
Pascal
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Moving from DSLR to MFD for the reasons you state makes sense but a couple things to consider:
1) Format will change unless you go with the Leica S2 or Leaf AFi-10. I went to the square format p20 with Rollei 6008 AF camera so this was a big change, one that I loved.
2) MF systems take much more light - about 3 - 4 stops to get the same DOF as you were used to with the DSLR - though the can provide very shallow DOF too
3) On camera flash metering - there just isn't the same kind of technology in MF as Canon and Nikon provide with their flash units. You can't use an off camera flash and get eTTL for example
4) AF - if you use autofocus on your D3x regularly you'll be dismayed by the slow low tech AF in MF camera systems. There are some newer models that getting faster but nothing like in the DSLR's. But the viewfinder will likely be better on MF.
5) Workflow will likely be different.
Considering all that you might have a transition time so be patient with whatever platform you go with initially until you feel you've really gotten to know it. My personal choice was the Rollei 6008AF and I'm very happy with it. I considered the Mamiya RZ and Contax 645 but neither was as good IMHO as the Rollei.
Eric
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IMO, you will not go wrong with H3DII-39, and Hasselblad zooms have perfect quality. 50-110 is a bit heavy and 35-90 is pricey, though.
I have 50-110 and have always been happy with the results. 35-90 autofocus speed is amazing. I will also be able to download free Phocus software, which is really good, after registering the camera.
But I wouldn't sell my H3DII-39 with a warranty for less than 14-15K. Lol. 12K is cheap.
You can also ask for an advice at the H forum: http://www.hasselbladdigitalforum.com (http://www.hasselbladdigitalforum.com)
Regards,
Alex
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Maybe you would enjoy a working vacation to Miami** :-). We'd be happy to go shooting with you over a weekend or during the week for free (whenever we are in-person we don't charge rental fees). Roundrip flight and hotels might be significantly less than a rental, plus you'd receive top-notch instruction and you could relax afterwards in South Beach - new home of Lebron James! We can get you nearly any Leaf/Phase system for evaluation and we have an H3D-II 50 for comparison*.
In any case any costs you incur to rent or otherwise evaluate the system will be a small percentage of your total financial outlay and will be MUCH less than the loss you take to switch or sell your system if you make the wrong choice (for your needs).
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I would take them up on their offer if you can.
The guys at CI are the best. I just went back to MF after a long absence and they are incredibly helpful and will bend over backwards to make sure you have the right gear. In fact they talked me in to getting less gear than I was initially going to buy.
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Funny comment about the lotus elise, because I just sold mine 6 months ago lol to buy the D3X and get my photography career started. I still have a D2X and a D700 so don't worry about me selling my DSLR's that is definitely not what I'm doing. I still want my D2X for low end clients. And my D700 for anytime I need high iso. The thing about renting, is that I don't know if I went to spend almost a thousand dollars trying out all the options before I even get one for myself.
Doug's offer is very good! ( might have to take him up on this when time to upgrade)
I promise, if you don't rent a system or take Doug's deal (which is like renting a # of systems...)
You will surely kick yourslef in the as$ a few thousand dollar times vs. paying 1 or even 2 grand now to know what you are getting into... a system you will likely use over 2-4 years or more.
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Eric, I just move couple months ago from Nikon to Hasselblad H4D-40. I had the Nikon D3x for a brief time, but I sold it to make the purchase ( I kept a D700 for low light work ).
I also urge you to contact a dealer... Its the best way to clear your doubts. Don't make a purchase unless you do a test with both Phase One and Hasselblad.
I finally bougth a Hasselblad because:
- H4D True focus (It's specially helpful in shallow depth of field situations to correctly focus) it's amazing.
- Flash sync speed up to 1/800 on the entire lens lineup. Before I made my decision I revised my Lightroom catalogs to see if I commonly use speeds above 1/800 (when I don't use strobes)... just the 5% in my case, 15% on photo shoots on the beach... so that's something to analyze.
- ISO 800 is quite usable, specially when you scale down an image (Phase One sensor plus it's awesome too).
- HTS 1.5 tilt and shift adapter for almos the entire lens lineup. I don't have it right now, but I tried it with my dealer, it not only special for landscape (to make panos) or table top or macro, I also gives you another way to be creative on portraits ( shifting the focus plane )
- Phocus: it's a great software, the lens corrections, the rendering of the color it's no way close to Lighroom + 35mm or Nikon files with Nikon capture.
* I have to tell you that in my experience Phocus its not a software for cataloging, it does the job, but if you are checking focus on your files 1 by 1 it will take you a lot of time.
- H4D AF assistance, it has a diferent light, a light with lines to make contrast, I don't now how to explain that, but for what I notice, I works better than the Nikon AF assistance (In my opinion).
- Hasselblad promotion: $19,995 for the H4D-40 + the 35-90mm... so you get the H4D-40 for $17,995 and a $7,000 lens for $2,000....
- The ergonomics just felt right in my hands.
- I was going to buy a H3d-31 or a H3d-39... but I wait to have all the $ to get the H4d-40 for the above reasons and because theres no trade-in options for the H3d-31(directly to hasselblad)... the H3d-39 has a really good value, but the H4d-40 will have more value in the future.
Some toughts on MFD:
- You'll need 2-3 stops more of light.
- You can hand-held the camera, but you'll need at least 2 stops more (Mirror shake is something you would need to fee, Hasselblad has mirror delay option... and it works great, but it's not the solution) You'll need a monopod or tripod most of the times.
- If you like shallow DOF images, this is the way to go. I have the 100mm f/2.2 and the shallow DOF its really amazing, you could emulate this with the canon 85mm f/1.2, but its not the same, theres something (Lack of AA filter plus size etc etc) about MFD that I love, the part of the image that is in focus is amazingly sharp (even if it is a 1 inch of DOF) and the out of focus transition is really pleasing to the eye. In 35mm if you shot with the 85mm f/1.2 the part that is in focus would be kind of soft. In MFD this is not the case.
- Computer horsepower: You'll need a good computer, I have brand new iMac 27in, 2.66 GHz intel Core i5 with 12 GB of ram, 512 MB video... and it barely does the job. I'm planing to buy a Mac Pro.
- Dynamic Range, IN MY OPINION out of the camera the images have about 1-2 stops more dynamic range than a 35mm... BUT if you heavily tweek the files it will give you a lot more than a 35mm file (specially in the shadows)... I would say another 1-2 stops more... and thats a LOT. If you tend to expose to the highlights MFD is way superior to 35mm when recovering shadows.
- Bigger field of view an less distorsion: If you use a 50mm in MFD (if you have a full frame sensor) it would be something like 31mm in 35mm terms BUT you will have the 50mm "optical view" with less distorsion than the 31mm that you will need in 35mm to get the same field of view. So this is special when you don't have space... so distorted heads or lines are less problematic with MFD when you don't have the space.
- Software: this is a huge plus for MFD... both Phase one and hasselblad have an amazing tools specially designed to get every last drop o quality out of the files, it really makes a diference. I think both need to expand the software to have cataloging options (for fast previewing, sorting, organizing etc etc). I guess thats why Phase One recently acquired iView.
Looking at your portfolio I would say that MFD will suit you very well. Speed it's not an issue, you have controlled enviroments and models, you don't do fast action shoots, I guess you don't need high ISO... So it's a matter to look at the options....
Good luck!!!
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Aldo,
Thanks for that write up. Unfortunately/fortunately i just purchased a H3dII-31 as that's all i can afford at the current time. The h4d-40 isn't to much more, but it's just enough more to not be justified by our budget. I mainly bought it for the sync speed and IQ. Phocus gets mixed reviews, but being new to MF, i figure it's best to have a closed system and get used to it all before going to some other system. I'm really looking forward to some of the positives you mentioned, thanks for the writeup.
I'm hoping that in a few years, they will take the h3dii-31 as a trade in for something really worthwhile. Here's to hoping.
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Aldo,
Thanks for that write up. Unfortunately/fortunately i just purchased a H3dII-31 as that's all i can afford at the current time. The h4d-40 isn't to much more, but it's just enough more to not be justified by our budget. I mainly bought it for the sync speed and IQ. Phocus gets mixed reviews, but being new to MF, i figure it's best to have a closed system and get used to it all before going to some other system. I'm really looking forward to some of the positives you mentioned, thanks for the writeup.
I'm hoping that in a few years, they will take the h3dii-31 as a trade in for something really worthwhile. Here's to hoping.
Maybe the body/lens auto focus makes the Hass attractive and a MUST for some shooters?
I could never support or buy into a closed system. Its like software, each tool does a great job in some area. Why would I lock myself to it, and who is to tell me for my shooting needs that X system with X lens and X this that X software is going to be the best for my workflow, my subject of shooting? Or better comparison...for me its like buying a camera with only 1 type of film...A few years back I almost bought into it....UNTIL you try it out, you wont know the differences. Don't rule out SINAR, in fact it should be up there on your list....have not tried the software and cant give feedback, but look into the pros and cons for your shooting needs.
I also get a bad taste in my mouth from a company that locks the system...as if the chips are not good enough for them...thats why I am not much a Hass guy...But don't let that muddle your thoughts :-)
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Maybe the body/lens auto focus makes the Hass attractive and a MUST for some shooters?
I could never support or buy into a closed system. Its like software, each tool does a great job in some area. Why would I lock myself to it, and who is to tell me for my shooting needs that X system with X lens and X this that X software is going to be the best for my workflow, my subject of shooting? Or better comparison...for me its like buying a camera with only 1 type of film...A few years back I almost bought into it....UNTIL you try it out, you wont know the differences. Don't rule out SINAR, in fact it should be up there on your list....have not tried the software and cant give feedback, but look into the pros and cons for your shooting needs.
I also get a bad taste in my mouth from a company that locks the system...as if the chips are not good enough for them...thats why I am not much a Hass guy...But don't let that muddle your thoughts :-)
No worries. I'm steadfast in my choice. However i wish i had the budget for at least the 39 or the time to wait for one to enter the market at a decent price. The closed system can be a good or bad thing in my opinion. I did a lot of research before spending my moeny, and i came to the conclusion that as a working professional and not a hobbyist, i'm better off with the closed system and i like the idea that everything is integrated, one battery etc and from the time i take the photo from the time it hits photoshop it goes through one system.
I can totally understand why some people prefer to tinker. But for me, i just don't have time to mismatch parts and shims and batteries and all that. I just need a MF system which works. Phocus being native to the system helps as well. Granted, i haven't used Phocus yet, but we do have really fast machines, so i'm not expecting many issues.
Anyhow, i'm rambling. Different strokes for different folks.
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OK,
So I went to the store and felt the systems. I felt that the hasselblad was more me. The Mamiya system felt outdated and simply didn't feel as comfortable in my hands as the hasselblad system. So I picked up a good deal on a h2 with 80mm 50-110 and a 150mm with leaf aptus 17 for 7K shipped over night. I'm going to keep the leaf back as a backup or for shoots that don't need the resolution. I am now deciding on whether or not I should get a p30+ back or get a h3dii 39 for around 13,000 and sell my h2 body. Any one have any thoughts on which one to do?
Eric
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OK,
So I went to the store and felt the systems. I felt that the hasselblad was more me. The Mamiya system felt outdated and simply didn't feel as comfortable in my hands as the hasselblad system. So I picked up a good deal on a h2 with 80mm 50-110 and a 150mm with leaf aptus 17 for 7K shipped over night. I'm going to keep the leaf back as a backup or for shoots that don't need the resolution. I am now deciding on whether or not I should get a p30+ back or get a h3dii 39 for around 13,000 and sell my h2 body. Any one have any thoughts on which one to do?
Eric
Very cool...thats right, the H2 you can change backs on! Once you have a happy system you stop chasing the technology and forget details of ones you don't have fast :-)
...yes everybody has some needs over others...and I am glad you tried it out to decide.
Congratulations and welcome to the world of digital MF!
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You just bought and now want to upgrade ..... ?
Damn you're fast
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Well at only 17 megapixels I found it kind of "downgrading" from my D3X even though I'm sure it will have better dynamic range and iq. 17 megapixels isn't enough in my opinion. And considering my budget was around 12-14 and I only spent 7, I still have some room to upgrade. Has anyone used the leaf aptus 17? I tried to look up some reviews on it but couldn't find anything solid.
Eric
You just bought and now want to upgrade ..... ?
Damn you're fast
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Well at only 17 megapixels I found it kind of "downgrading" from my D3X even though I'm sure it will have better dynamic range and iq. 17 megapixels isn't enough in my opinion. And considering my budget was around 12-14 and I only spent 7, I still have some room to upgrade. Has anyone used the leaf aptus 17? I tried to look up some reviews on it but couldn't find anything solid.
Eric,
I've followed your adventure over the last week.
You've purchased two completely different systems in one week with little or no real world testing and in the case of the Aptus-17 without any research. We can really help you here, but so far you've only used us to get price quotes and ignored most or all of our advice.
I would suggest you return your latest quick-decision purchase and work with us (or anyone else) to rent or demo one or two of the systems you are considering in a real-world shooting situation, preferably in the presence of someone who knows the system through-and-through.
Don't get me wrong, the Aptus-17 on an H2 is a good system, and if it's the right system for you then great, but jumping into two purchases like this is not helping you acquire a system you can be confident is a good fit for your shooting style and your business needs.
Doug Peterson ()
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
RSS Feed: Subscribe (http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/)
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Personal Work (http://www.doug-peterson.com/)
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What Doug said.
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So I went to the store and felt the systems. I felt that the hasselblad was more me. The Mamiya system felt outdated and simply didn't feel as comfortable in my hands as the hasselblad system.
Which "Mamiya system" did you try?
The Mamiya AFD1? The Mamiya AFD2? The Mamiya AFD3? The Mamiya DF? The Phase One AF? The Phase One DF?
Which firmware version did it have installed?
Did it have the L-Bracket with the handstrap?
Did you try it with a focal plane lens or leaf shutter lens?
Was the Autofocus turned to Accuracy or Fast Mode?
Was the Autofocus set to the rear button or the shutter release?
Did you try it with and without a bip (http://www.captureintegration.com/2010/06/13/bip-is-a-hit-bip-on-the-phase-one-df-camera/) shutter release cap?
Are you aware of the incompatibility between the H2 and the H3 if you eventually go that route? Are you aware Hasselblad locks some of their lenses from working with the H2 body?
Was the firmware of the Hassy up to date so that included the neat feature of mirror delay?
Do you see why I keep suggesting you consult with one of the dealers which really focuses on these systems and to really thoroughly research your options before making a purchase decision?
How long did it take you to buy your last car?
Doug Peterson ()
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
RSS Feed: Subscribe (http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/)
Buy Capture One at 10% off (http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/)
Personal Work (http://www.doug-peterson.com/)
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+1 at doug
Also I really wonder what you are shooting for if 17 megapixels is not enough, we've done billboards with 8MP.
I really believe that for commercial work in 99% of the cases 22MP is the sweetspot and 17 is not far from that.
PLEASE don't only look at the numbers, just feel the image quality.
A friend of mine has the newest phone with I believe 10MP or so, compare that to a 20D and you will see what I mean, his shots looks like crap, a 4MP canon consumer camera is much better.
Also about outdated, I also wonder which camera you used.
I've shot with Hasselblad, Mamiya RZ67ProII, Mamiya 645AFD (the whole series), Leaf AFi etc. etc.
I loved the AFi, but I'm in love with the RZ67ProII (talk about outdated).
However when I compare the Phase One/Mamiya DF to the Hasselblad H2 with all due respect the Hasselblad feels very outdated.
The new H4D is great but I still like the way the Mamiya handles more (but that's personal).
The AFD/1 is not so nice in my opinion it's very slow in AF, hunts a lot and doesn't play nice with a lot of digital backs, but the AFD/III is a different story and the DF is just another step forward.
In the end it all boils down to personal taste but you can't develop that in a few minutes in a store.
Just borrow the combination or take doug up on his offer, I would jump to that to be honest.
It's a big investment and something you will keep for a LONG time, they way you're working now next year we will read you hate MF and are back to Nikon/Canon because that system is much better......
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I've shot with Hasselblad, Mamiya RZ67ProII, Mamiya 645AFD (the whole series), Leaf AFi etc. etc.
I loved the AFi, but I'm in love with the RZ67ProII (talk about outdated).
hi frank,
could you expand on that? i'd love to hear your thoughts on both systems.
i'm primarily interested in the comparison of when using the wlf, what's the view like, how bright are both and what's it like with the afi and going from horizontal to vertical. what else do you see in the afi wlf: speed, f-stop, iso, ???
also, what about af and manual focus on the afi.
and the lenses, can you compare them to the rz lenses? weight, speed, contrast, look, etc.
what do you think about the controls on the afi, any trouble there? weight and balance? it much lighter than an rz isn't it?
and also, do you know anything about pricing, available lenses, etc.?
and have you used capture one with your leaf back? does it recognize the camera? does it tether?
also, where did you buy yours and what about the warranty and service concerning the afi body and the leaf backs? is it a leaf warranty? or is it phase one?
thanks for the info!
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I'm only guessing here, but I'm placing bets that the capital outlay for these "two used MFDB systems" combined is the same or quickly approaching the cost of one new Phase One P40+ or H4D40 MFDB system....
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Hi
I was the beta tester for the afi-2 system so it's been a while.
I already owned the rz at that time as my own camera so I could compare them and I did a lot.
Totally honest I loved the handling of the afi much more, the rotating sensor is great, I would not want the first versionnwhere you just change the sensor manually.
Af is reasonably quick although I did run into some problems with the 180 with distance go my model, but that's personal, with the close up ring it worked great.
I use a bright screen for my rz wlf so my screen is rather bright, compared to the original screen I had with the rz the afi seems much brighter, both mf and af was easy but for me the rz is also no problem.
The rz is mostly used on a studio stand the afi I used handheld without a problem.
Lens quality believe it or not but the glass of the rz is better from what I've seen, more sharpness and I liked the contrast more, but in all honestly the rz glass is extremely nice.
If the afi would have continued I would have loved to own one and I was for a while in the Market for one but I decided to keep the 645 afd3 and the rz.
I've also used capture one in the beta program and did not like it at first, but it has grown on me to a point that I absolutely love it now, especially the focus mask, for me I'm however using leaf capture because in this version you can't choose to store uncompressed leaf files but only compressed and aperture has problem with some of those files, and it's in my personal workflow a better decision at that time to use leaf capture which is slightly faster but lacks a lot of the features of capture one, I have given my opinion on the compressed issue and if that is changed I will probably change for the full 100% to capture one.
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I'm only guessing here, but I'm placing bets that the capital outlay for these "two used MFDB systems" combined is the same or quickly approaching the cost of one new Phase One P40+ or H4D40 MFDB system....
Maybe he can use them both for a trade-in; or he'll end up buying yet a third back.
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Well at only 17 megapixels I found it kind of "downgrading" from my D3X even though I'm sure it will have better dynamic range and iq.
Did you test that, or did you drop five figures on a hunch?
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Hi,
about one day. Found a used Toyota RAV 4 at a nice price point, had a test drive. Wrote the check. Cameras take longer...
Best regards
Erik
How long did it take you to buy your last car?
Doug Peterson ()
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
RSS Feed: Subscribe (http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/)
Buy Capture One at 10% off (http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/)
Personal Work (http://www.doug-peterson.com/)
-
Hi,
about one day. Found a used Toyota RAV 4 at a nice price point, had a test drive. Wrote the check. Cameras take longer...
Best regards
Erik
I think Toyota has some nice upgrade trade-in programs too. You'll need a Toyota 4Runner now to haul around all your new MFDB systems!
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hi frank,
could you expand on that? i'd love to hear your thoughts on both systems.
i'm primarily interested in the comparison of when using the wlf, what's the view like, how bright are both and what's it like with the afi and going from horizontal to vertical. what else do you see in the afi wlf: speed, f-stop, iso, ???
also, what about af and manual focus on the afi.
and the lenses, can you compare them to the rz lenses? weight, speed, contrast, look, etc.
what do you think about the controls on the afi, any trouble there? weight and balance? it much lighter than an rz isn't it?
and also, do you know anything about pricing, available lenses, etc.?
and have you used capture one with your leaf back? does it recognize the camera? does it tether?
also, where did you buy yours and what about the warranty and service concerning the afi body and the leaf backs? is it a leaf warranty? or is it phase one?
thanks for the info!
With all due respect, getting into an AFI is not easy and not for the casual observer. +1 on Doug's suggestion of working closely with a dealer. MFDB are not easy to get into - there are lots of subtleties one needs to know and learn.WIth an MFDB, I'm getting the hang of getting results I love out of it - after about two months. There are a lot of pieces to the puzzle, regardless of whose back/camera/lens you use.
We all learn and then learn some more.
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With all due respect, getting into an AFI is not easy and not for the casual observer. +1 on Doug's suggestion of working closely with a dealer. MFDB are not easy to get into - there are lots of subtleties one needs to know and learn.WIth an MFDB, I'm getting the hang of getting results I love out of it - after about two months. There are a lot of pieces to the puzzle, regardless of whose back/camera/lens you use.
We all learn and then learn some more.
I rented my car before I bought it. True story. When I bought it I knew everything about it that I liked and was aware of the things I didn't like (most of them). I have no regrets.
Rush in, buy uninformed - you take your chances. Maybe you luck out, maybe you don't. It's a lot of money. Due diligence has it's rewards.
Steve Hendrix
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I rented my car before I bought it. ..........snio..........Due diligence has it's rewards.
Where's the fun in that?
I think what most people are asking here is simple . . . is the RZ still being manufactured?
Anyway, In commercial image making today . . . it's about concept, style, how/what/when you deliver, low on set drama, relationships and of course costs.
How this relates to cameras is everyone's personal preference. If a photographer loves his/her RZ,D,B,C AFD one two or three, Hasselblad H 30, 40, 50, 60, a still or video camera, etc. etc. then great, go with it because if the camera makes you feel good then you might shoot a little better, but overall at the end of the day nobody a photographer wants to work with talks about cameras or really cares.
They say it's the economy stupid, but in image making it's the idea, the execution, the creativity. Today more than ever because the world of presentation, media has been so democratized that only an outstanding idea will survive the glut of data that flies at us by the second.
There was a period where I thought God help us if it becomes a 5d world, but today, I see the camera choices "I" make as liberating because as good as cameras are from $3,000 to $30,000 and the small differences the camera makes in the final image, photography is now more of a level playing field than anytime in the history of the profession, which should allow great IDEAS to spew out like water.
Now we can shoot about anything, anywhere, anytime and what will make the difference in what you produce is not the logo on the camera, but what resides between your ears and your ability to get it shown.
For anybody starting out or struggling to go forward they should remember that even 10 hours of thought and resource put into a camera choice and learning curve is 10 hours they didn't spend on concept, style, how/what/when you deliver, relationships and of course costs.
Today, in the commercial world, it's all about having everything in the proper priority.
This spot for Levi's by Weiden, illustrates that better than anything I can write It could have been shot with a $300,000 panaflex or a $3,000 5d2. It's all about the ideas and the final execution. It's not about pixels, RZ's or micro detail.
Everybody keeps telling me the good ol' days are gone, but if artists open their minds to the possibilities before us, we can produce imagery that we never dreamed of before, with almost any equipment.*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=635XItRDU7g...player_embedded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=635XItRDU7g&feature=player_embedded)
IMO
BC
*note. Obviously this spot costs money and probably had large crew, but the ideas, the style, the core message is the creativity.
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Where's the fun in that?
I think what most people are asking here is simple . . . is the RZ still being manufactured?
Anyway, In commercial image making today . . . it's about concept, style, how/what/when you deliver, low on set drama, relationships and of course costs.
How this relates to cameras is everyone's personal preference. If a photographer loves his/her RZ,D,B,C AFD one two or three, Hasselblad H 30, 40, 50, 60, a still or video camera, etc. etc. then great, go with it because if the camera makes you feel good then you might shoot a little better, but overall at the end of the day nobody a photographer wants to work with talks about cameras or really cares.
They say it's the economy stupid, but in image making it's the idea, the execution, the creativity. Today more than ever because the world of presentation, media has been so democratized that only an outstanding idea will survive the glut of data that flies at us by the second.
There was a period where I thought God help us if it becomes a 5d world, but today, I see the camera choices "I" make as liberating because as good as cameras are from $3,000 to $30,000 and the small differences the camera makes in the final image, photography is now more of a level playing field than anytime in the history of the profession, which should allow great IDEAS to spew out like water.
Now we can shoot about anything, anywhere, anytime and what will make the difference in what you produce is not the logo on the camera, but what resides between your ears and your ability to get it shown.
For anybody starting out or struggling to go forward they should remember that even 10 hours of thought and resource put into a camera choice and learning curve is 10 hours they didn't spend on concept, style, how/what/when you deliver, relationships and of course costs.
Today, in the commercial world, it's all about having everything in the proper priority.
This spot for Levi's by Weiden, illustrates that better than anything I can write It could have been shot with a $300,000 panaflex or a $3,000 5d2. It's all about the ideas and the final execution. It's not about pixels, RZ's or micro detail.
Everybody keeps telling me the good ol' days are gone, but if artists open their minds to the possibilities before us, we can produce imagery that we never dreamed of before, with almost any equipment.*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=635XItRDU7g...player_embedded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=635XItRDU7g&feature=player_embedded)
IMO
BC
*note. Obviously this spot costs money and probably had large crew, but the ideas, the style, the core message is the creativity.
Agree with everything you say, 100%, and if I was a photographer trying to make my mark, I'd take everything you said to heart and burn it in there.
Our intent is to make sure that the choices one makes are as informed as possible. This can take a little time or a lot. We get feedback on a constant basis from end users concerning there likes and dislikes - some of which aren't apparent until after they've bought, but many that are. We can't control everything, but knowing more about a product than less is a good thing. And unfortunately with medium format, issues that come up after the purchase - regardless of how large or small - grate.
No, renting my car wasn't fun, but it was enjoyable. I didn't purposely rent it, I just needed to rent a car, but was also in the market, and had test-driven a bunch of others, had little issues with all of them and liked this one. I felt pleased as I discovered what I really liked about it that separated it from the other cars I was considering (I do hate car analogies, but I guess I brought it up).
Affirmative, the RZ is still being manufactured.
Steve Hendrix
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I have worked with a Leaf Valeo 17wi in the studio, since 2003 and I bought a used Leaf Aptus 22 for my personal use last year. In buying the Leaf Valeo 17wi in 2003, we tested it against a Phase One back and all three photographers liked the Leaf better. The Leaf went to the jewelry photographer with the strobes. Since that time I have used a Betterlight 6K II scanning back, with hot lights, until moving to a studio with bouncy wooden floors forced me to get rid of the Betterlight and I bought a used Phase One H25(it was available for what the Betterlight sold for). One day I tested the Leaf against the Phase One, on the same camera, with the same lens, I just switched backs. With the Leaf, I used live view to focus and then switched in the Phase H25, using the same focus, plus I did 3 manual focuses with the Phase H25. The final result was that the Leaf rendered fine detail(the weave of a Ferragamo tie) better than the Phase no matter what I did to the Phase files.
I did use the basic/default sharpening that each backs software provided. My reasoning was, I don't care if unsharpened files look exactly the same, if one software produced better files - I wanted that software. The Leaf Valeo 17wi consistently shows the dot screen(the printer's rosette) of any packaging I photograph, it's how I know I'm in focus, I am a still life - product guy. In the six months that I used the Phase One H25, I never achieved that level of sharpness with the Phase. The photos were still good with the Phase and at 50% on the monitor both backs image quality looked excellent, just at 100% the leaf pulled away.
Is this a good thing, well yes if fine detail is important to you, but maybe not if you photograph people, some photographers might prefer a smoother skin tone for instance. Both backs produce quality images, the Phase will do lot longer exposures than the Leaf. There are basic choices to be made.
I never liked waking the Phase back up and I shoot still life, that is not going anywhere. The Leaf was an always on back, used a fan to cool it. After 5 years, the one problem we had with the Leaf 17wi(this is a tethered back) was the fan stopped working, the back overheated and the firewire board burned out. I probably contributed to this as I left the firewire cable plugged in a lot the week before aftere I was finished shooting. To compound the problem, the studio was very hot in the New York City winters, 20 degrees outside and I needed to open the window a foot, I was so hot - too much heat. So it cost $1100 or so for a new firewire board.
I purchased a Leaf Aptus 22, last september, to use outside for my personal work - landscape and urban. I have had a few problems. I figured that I would need to use it on a tripod most of the time, 80 or 90% but thought I could use it in bright sun handheld. That didn't work out, as pressing the shutter release on a Hasselblad 503 softly, fired the camera but not the back, you needed a very firm pull, actually a jerk, so I got camera movement. That's a great way to destroy fine detail. Well Yair from Leaf came to the rescue, he said I should set the 'camera used' in the Aptus software to large format and that cured the problem.
So the Aptus 22 provides all the incredible detail that I am used to in the studio, but I find it lacking in the way I prefer to work outside. I compose in the viewfinder, with my Nikon D300, I see something, put the camera to my eye and say yes it looks good or no somethings not right. I can zoom in or out trying to solve my problem. With the Hassy/Leaf and the 50mm lens, my feet are the zoom and that gets me nothing as the shot I am after is the perspective from where I am standing, not 10 feet forward and 4feet lower. I tired using the leaf like a big net, taking everything in and cropping it later, but I never knew if I had a photo, that left the professional side of me very uncomfortable.
Another way of looking at this problem is 'keepers' or good photos. Lets say on a good photo day, I might have 10 good images, three quite good and seven acceptably good with a 35mm type DSLR but with the Hassy/Leaf combo, I figure that I might only get 3 good photos. It also was obvious to me that these 3 photos might be in the seven acceptably good from the 35mm. I would be missing out on the best Images I could take with the Hassy/Leaf combo more often than not, a keeper rate of only 30% compared to my Nikon, not really acceptable. Who knew I would not be a happy camper.
Hope this helps, don't know anything about the high megapixels backs the leaf valeo 17wi just does a beautiful job day after day in the studio with strobes.
Brian
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Hi Brian,
Interesting....
-Did the pixel size to lens ratio play a big factor in critical focus/sharpness ? I think the Phase 22mp is a 11 micron pixelwhats the Leaf?
-What lens are you using?
Mr. MR of LL did this test, and I purchased the CD with RAW files some years back. If I remember it right, it was a fireplace or crop of an image of a mantel (I think I focused in on a shiny metal wood pick)..I forget. I remember seeing the Leaf maybe a bit more sharp, but the difference was sooooo small, that I convinced myself that post sharpening would easily make up any difference, which I think it would (not tested)....I might have even read Michaels review saying something about it also...I read a lot of things, so pardon if I am off.
With my use...the Phase does create some tack sharp images using a Macro Rod lens of 210, and I am sure the newer lens' would be even more sharp. But I find it tap out at around 16 stop. And even a front standard tilt forward doesn't make up for the shallow DOF at 16. So its a tough thing to balance. I am not sure how the newer Schneider HR or other digi specific lenses would do vs some older ones in this regard?
If you have any images to share, even a crop , would be interesting to see.
I still use this Phase back, and I am not sure what hot means in NY, but I have easily had it on for hours ...maybe 8 or more(I guess sleeping sometimes), and even awake for hours in desert heat temps of 90F(indoors), and had no issues.
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FWIW, I've been comparing an older Phase back, P20 with the newer Leaf back, AFI II 7. One is 16 mp, the other 33. The older one has 9 mu pixels, the newer (I think) is 6 mu.
At the risk of PO everyone with newer backs, it seems the differences are not quite as significant as one might think. The newer Leaf is more flexible, maybe a stop or two better (400 ISO = older Phase's 200 ISO). 200 ISO on the Leaf is a fine all around ISO to use.
Again, these are subjective observations. As someone else said, the gains in quality achieved in the later Leaf are partially given up with the small pixels and the hunt for more resolution.
THe biggest gains are in usability - in ease of use. That isn't minor, but its worth noting that there is still significant quality to be found in older MFDB that were once regarded as quite good. Those 9 mu backs have something very nice about them. For me, the newer software, and general integration with a camera body is much better with the newer gear, but for a studio or more restrained use, one could find some good deals in older gear.
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Phil,
You asked about the Leaf's pixel size, sorry can't find that info - not in the Leaf manual, nor in pdf spec sheets for that back.
The lens used was a Schneider Apo-Symmar 150mm f5.6 multicoated - a film lens but a good one.
Got the LL megapixel disc myself, hard to make real clear conclusions from the files, I just don't know what they did.
The 'HOT' comment was a full disclosure type statement. While both backs Phase and Leaf will work very well under very hot conditions, the way Leaf cools its backs, via a fan that has moving parts. If the fan fails the Leaf back can overheat and you might lose the firewire board. Just something to be aware of if you wish to purchase a Leaf back.
I think I can locate the 'tie' files, this weekend and post some crops. I did this test because a client noticed a problem.
When looking for the pixel size of the Leaf17wi, I came across a test of the Leaf 17wi and a Phase P20. The photog was shooting a hamburger on a bun and comparing the seeds on the bun and his opinion was that the Phase back was sharper. Not sure I agree with him, the phase file looked over cooked a bit, to my eye.
Brian Woolf
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Phil,
You asked about the Leaf's pixel size, sorry can't find that info - not in the Leaf manual, nor in pdf spec sheets for that back.
The lens used was a Schneider Apo-Symmar 150mm f5.6 multicoated - a film lens but a good one.
Got the LL megapixel disc myself, hard to make real clear conclusions from the files, I just don't know what they did.
When looking for the pixel size of the Leaf17wi, I came across a test of the Leaf 17wi and a Phase P20. The photog was shooting a hamburger on a bun and comparing the seeds on the bun and his opinion was that the Phase back was sharper. Not sure I agree with him, the phase file looked over cooked a bit, to my eye.
Brian Woolf
Yeah, I think even the camera's were switched out, but it was the only thing available since I didn't know Doug (Phase rep) back then :-)
A bun seed is ok, but the best way to tell for me is reflective metals, facet stones and such ...Thats why I think the digitar or HR lenes might be a good chunk better? I have no clue? I know that the Macro apo I use is very sharp, but like I said the dof comes into play. I have tried on RZ with 140 TS adapt and it is nice, but still suffers
the dof, and limited TS to about 12degree if I remember it right.
Besides, you mention that you care more for the processing SW rather than the RAW, and sometimes I wonder as some 35mm DSLR's have some processing to the files as they are created RAW. so maybe and likely MFdB's also have some processing.
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....sometimes I wonder as some 35mm DSLR's have some processing to the files as they are created RAW. so maybe and likely MFdB's also have some processing.
As I just explained here (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=44770), Nikons DO have manipulation of the RAWs; thankfully Canons, and apparently Pentax, don't.
My old Kodak DCS645M produces unprocessed RAWs - as they should be. I can't speak for other MFDB brands, but I would greatly doubt that they manipulate the RAWs - it would be hard to hide evidence of this in a sensor without an AA filter.
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As I just explained here (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=44770), Nikons DO have manipulation of the RAWs; thankfully Canons, and apparently Pentax, don't.
My old Kodak DCS645M produces unprocessed RAWs - as they should be. I can't speak for other MFDB brands, but I would greatly doubt that they manipulate the RAWs - it would be hard to hide evidence of this in a sensor without an AA filter.
makes sense. and thanks for clearing Canon of this.
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Phil,
You asked about the Leaf's pixel size, sorry can't find that info - not in the Leaf manual, nor in pdf spec sheets for that back.
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Brian Woolf
Sinar / Leaf etc use the same ccd's
active area is also a factor so sinar use subpixel sampling in the multishot camerabacks which essentially take an image from the nonactive area of the ccd midway between adjacent pixels
the evolution 75h 33 mpixels cameraback can capture either In 1-shot mode an image file size (RAW) of 68 MB. In 4-shot mode 260 MB with 7.2micron pixel size
Edwin
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A test between a Phase One H25 (22 megapixel back) and a Leaf Valeo 17wi (17 megapixel back) in Aug.2007
Rendering very fine detail - the weave of a tie.
This test was caused by a client, On the third day, he brought me 2-3 more ties to shoot. I finished them in a couple hours and gave him a disc. He was back in a hour, saying "Like yesterday, please!" The thing is, I wasn't in yesterday (the second day) but out at the doctor for tests. The other photographer, the jewelry guy with the Leaf Valeo 17wi back filled in for me, they liked what I did the first day, with the Phase H25 back, that they brought 20 more ties in and he did them on my set with his (the Leaf) back. I went and looked at the files he did yesterday and realized that I could not match them with the Phase H25 and a 135mm Nikkor lens that I was using. So I borrowed his back and lens. I did know that the 150mm Schneider Apo-Symmar was the best lens we had, that is why he was using it for jewelry.
The Test
The tie was hung over a pole and clipped together at the top. The sinar p 4x5 with a 150mm Schneider Apo-Symmar F5.6 was level and parallel to the tie and the camera was not moved, the backs were switched. With the Leaf, I used the Leaf LiveView to focus, just one focus and a few exposures of that focus to get a proper exposure. LiveView on the Leaf is ugly, sort of grainy, bad b&w but it does work well for a focus. I then switched in the Phase back and took 1 exposure with the Leaf LiveView focus, then did three manual focuses with the Phase back. I made the tie very out of focus and refocused each time with the loupe, As I recall, three of those focuses looked equally sharp and one was out of focus, I used one of the sharp Phase focuses, just not sure which one. Both backs were set at their default lowest (best quality) asa/iso setting. for the Phase it was 50 and the Leaf was one stop lower at 25 asa/iso. The Phase 50asa/iso seemed accurate but the Leaf back was 1 and 1/2 stops darker than the Phase, making it's asa/iso closer to 16, in my opinion. I was only interested in the best quality from each back and had no interest in raising the Leaf back asa/iso to 50 to match the Phase H25. Each was processed in their respective digital back software. The Leaf Capture 8.2.4 software was used at their factory default setting which applies sharpening. The Phase DB software (I think I recall) does not apply sharpening so I did activated a modest/midlevel sharpening in their software. The tie is (or should be) exactly the same size in each image, as the camera was not moved and only a focus applied. All that was done in Photoshop was to butt the two images together and lighten one to get the closest possible match on the tie and I think some color correction was applied to the Phase image to match the actual tie.
What I see in the Images - the Phase H25 is on the left and the Leaf Valeo 17wi is on the right.
[attachment=23310:Sharp_test_small.jpg]
The Leaf image looks very clean and ordered, i can easily see the very even rows of stitching, they look natural and correct.
In the Phase image, I can still see the stitching but it looks choppy and there seems to be something not quite right with the image. It does not appear to be as sharp or as clear as the Leaf image, but it still is pretty sharp.
I figured that this difference was caused by the software, I thought that the Leaf engineers just did a better job.
Which image would you want to send to a client?
The choice was easy for me - sharper image, easier focus, I went with the Leaf.
If you were to do a test like this with different materials, like silverplate place settings (knives and forks), the results might be quite different. In this case, the Leaf Valeo 17wi did an excellent job with very fine detail.
Brian Woolf
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A test between a Phase One H25 (22 megapixel back) and a Leaf Valeo 17wi (17 megapixel back) in Aug.2007
Rendering very fine detail - the weave of a tie.
The Test
What I see in the Images - the Phase H25 is on the left and the Leaf Valeo 17wi is on the right.
Thanks for this Brian.
The Leaf does look more sharp and contrasty. You did pick maybe the hardest subject matter to test. a textured fabric with a "painted" print. I see the softness of the Phase. I do wonder as you say the post is something you took in great consideration, not just the raw file. Makes practicle sense, as long as the file is processed to its best in C1.