Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Colour Management => Topic started by: WombatHorror on July 06, 2010, 03:32:14 am
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The default factory mode has the primary locations under 3dE (as measured by NEC puck in SVII). (I got R .639,.325,25.11; G .301,.602,86.64; B .152,.063,9.25; W .307,.324,119.6; only the red y and blue luminance are really much off at all perhaps they are adapted to the cooler white point?)
The default tone response curve seems to be very close to the sRGB standard.
The default WB in all the factory presets appears to be somewhat cool though at (as measured by the NEC puck again) .307,.324 instead of .3127,.3290.
Aside from the WB the factory preset mode appears to be excellent.
Not sure how much of the error comes from the factory preset and how much from the NEC puck.
Anyway you can also use Multiprofiler combined with SVII to take measurements to program a custom mode into Multiprofiler that uses the sRGB tone curve, doing that I got the measured WB just about right on and the R,G,B primaries: R 0.3dE G 0.7dE B1.6dE (these include not just xy but also Y luminance error as well). Of course the NEC puck might have some variance but anyway it seems you can program it to have a near perfect sRGB mode (barring your probe variance). And this is all entirely internal, so it works even with non-managed stuff.
You can also use a gamma 2.2 (it measures just about a straight line along 2.2) instead of sRGB to make a TV/disc/game mode.
I didn't measure grayscale so I'm trusting the dE are all reasonable low for it, I don't see obvious signs of troubling coloration.
Few actual sRGB monitors do better.
(I haven't found a way to get the HDTV standard tone response curve along with calibrated WB at the same time though, I trust they will offer that curve as a selectable option for full calibration with both utilities in the future. Although it's not a huge loss in that very, very, very few sets ever get calibrated that way, almost nobody has a monitor or HDTV set that way (aside from perhaps a few calibrated to that standard using Calman).)
EDIT: I removed the stuff about compensation since the number were based on too few spots measured
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What exact model display are you talking about?
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There are currently two PA models that would be able to have this feature if used with SpectraView software: PA241W and PA271W.
This is made possible via MultiProfiler and the benefits of a 3D LUT memory on-board a PA model. It allows you to use a simulation profile in the monitor, INDEPENDENT of a computer (consider that for a moment). It can be an sRGB, aRGB, Rec-709, etc. color space profile, or a custom RGB monitor profile. It can even be a printer profile (now, really consider the possibilities of this!)
This exciting process potentially allows very accurate emulations on screen as compared to NEC's OSD presets. It could give new meaning to application-based 'soft-proofing' as well. It remains to be seen how well 'all' transforms will occur, but certainly more testing and feedback from users would be valuable and welcomed.
Rick Hatmaker
CHROMiX.com
What exact model display are you talking about?
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level 0 does look a little greener and dimmer to the left and a little redder and brighter to the right (not talking glowing red or green though at all like some horror shots you see of some HP/Dell)
Mura is noticable in all wide gamut CCFL/RGB LED displays, that's why all the best have electronic uniformity compensation. Eizo CG doesn't even have the possibility to turn it off.
As for the sRGB mode - I belive that in fact it may be closer to sRGB target when calibrated via Multiprofiler, I wouldn't consider SVII puck as a source of reference measurement values.
This exciting process potentially allows very accurate emulations on screen as compared to NEC's OSD presets. It could give new meaning to application-based 'soft-proofing' as well. It remains to be seen how well 'all' transforms will occur, but certainly more testing and feedback from users would be valuable and welcomed.
Exactly - I used my Epson 7880 profiles as calibration targets in Multiprofiler, It worked really cool.
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What exact model display are you talking about?
PA241W
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There are currently two PA models that would be able to have this feature if used with SpectraView software: PA241W and PA271W.
This is made possible via MultiProfiler and the benefits of a 3D LUT memory on-board a PA model. It allows you to use a simulation profile in the monitor, INDEPENDENT of a computer (consider that for a moment). It can be an sRGB, aRGB, Rec-709, etc. color space profile, or a custom RGB monitor profile. It can even be a printer profile (now, really consider the possibilities of this!)
This exciting process potentially allows very accurate emulations on screen as compared to NEC's OSD presets. It could give new meaning to application-based 'soft-proofing' as well. It remains to be seen how well 'all' transforms will occur, but certainly more testing and feedback from users would be valuable and welcomed.
Rick Hatmaker
CHROMiX.com
This is an interesting post Rick. I know there are two PA models, why I wanted to know which Larry was speaking of, which he has clarified. In any event, both of them are supposed to be able to represent most of ARGB(98), which made me wonder about the emphasis on sRGB
Of more interest to me is the idea of direct softproofing in the display LUT. Could you elaborate a bit on how one would go about implementing this, and whether you have experimented with it on one of the NEC-PA models?
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In any event, both of them are supposed to be able to represent most of ARGB(98), which made me wonder about the emphasis on sRGB
Outside ICC aware applications, its real useful to have a fairly accurate sRGB emulation on a wide gamut display. The new NEC’s appear to take this emulation to a new level (along with soft proofing using actual print profiles).
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It can even be a printer profile (now, really consider the possibilities of this!)
The only question I had when playing with this feature is why it appears so vastly different from the soft proof produced in Photoshop (either using the simulate check boxes or not). Which one is “right”?
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The only question I had when playing with this feature is why it appears so vastly different from the soft proof produced in Photoshop (either using the simulate check boxes or not). Which one is “right”?
Have you tried making a print and comparing it with both screen emulations to see which is closer? I'm interested in this as I'm contemplating purchase of a NEC-271
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Have you tried making a print and comparing it with both screen emulations to see which is closer? I'm interested in this as I'm contemplating purchase of a NEC-271
My methods for setting calibration targets is to enter said values that produce a visual match. The two proofs are so different that its an Apples to Oranges comparison and I don’t know which targets are the correct values when I see such a disconnect between the two soft proof methods.
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My methods for setting calibration targets is to enter said values that produce a visual match. The two proofs are so different that its an Apples to Oranges comparison and I don’t know which targets are the correct values when I see such a disconnect between the two soft proof methods.
Andrew, could you please unpack your first statement, as I don't understand what you are doing. That may be my problem, but there it is. When I think of setting calibration targets for profiling a display, I think of the usual things: selecting White Point, Gamma and Luminosity, and letting the puck measure the patches the software generates on the display in order to create a profile with those calibration parameters. Did you mean something else?
As well, I'm hoping Rick provides more detail on how he sets up the printer profile in the display to create a one-stop soft-proof.
Now, exactly because you find the two approaches generating such different results, and because one important end-product of this color management is to get predictable and reasonably close matching between print and display, is why I asked whether you went as far as printing to see which is more valid. For example, and not even making a print, suppose you loaded the Atkinson printer test image on the display and looked at it with both profiles. We both probably know in-spades what that test image should look like, so would this not give a clue about which display profiling soution is closer to the desired performance?
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When I think of setting calibration targets for profiling a display, I think of the usual things: selecting White Point, Gamma and Luminosity, and letting the puck measure the patches the software generates on the display in order to create a profile with those calibration parameters.
And those settings are based on results that produce a visual match to my viewing booth. The numbers themselves are otherwise meaningless. With my viewing booth, 150cd/m2 is the right answer (for me). For you, it may be a totally different value. When I setup a soft proof in Photoshop, hit F and Tab to be in full screen mode, view the print and the display and get a match, that’s it. If not, I have to alter the calibration target values (or maybe if possible, adjust the brightness of the booth). The settings used to calibrate the display are altered for that result. The results I see doing this for a match using Photoshop don’t produce a match and look vastly different using the NEC soft proofing. I don’t know why they look different.
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And those settings are based on results that produce a visual match to my viewing booth. The numbers themselves are otherwise meaningless. With my viewing booth, 150cd/m2 is the right answer (for me). For you, it may be a totally different value. When I setup a soft proof in Photoshop, hit F and Tab to be in full screen mode, view the print and the display and get a match, that’s it. If not, I have to alter the calibration target values (or maybe if possible, adjust the brightness of the booth). The settings used to calibrate the display are altered for that result. The results I see doing this for a match using Photoshop don’t produce a match and look vastly different using the NEC soft proofing. I don’t know why they look different.
Yes, I'm with you for most of this but let me try for more clarity from the penultimate sentence. Am I reading you correctly that using this display you don't get a match with this technique in BOTH set-ups: (i) softproofing in Photoshop using a normal monitor profile for the display and the usual softproof from the Photoshop View menu; and (ii) using a printer profile in the display (instead of a normal display profile) as suggested by this new technique. If that's the case there is something to ponder before buying this display, because it would indicate that it can't be colour-managed properly, so I'm keen to make sure I understand this correctly.
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Mark:
Initial observations: There may be many benefactors of this type of technology usage. Film & video users for example, can load up the simulation profile (or color space profile) in the monitor LUT. Many video related applications do not directly interface with profile data or necessarily with standard video card call outs and LUTs. This could be a real benefit for viewing corrected motion images correctly at monitor level. Linux/Unix users have long complained about interaction with profile data, DDC and standard video protocols that are mostly oriented to Mac and Windows drivers. This could give them corrected viewing conditions, as long as they could find a Mac or PC to load up the simulation profile. Field usages where there is no computer dependency, etc.
We have done some initial testing of 3D LUT usage, but we are far from reaching any publishable conclusions. None-the-less, it does present some exciting possibilities. I've been meaning to have a conversation soon with Will Hollingworth at NEC further about this technology. He may be able to shed some light here as well on NEC's technology or potential capabilities.....
I'm sure NEC has made or used code that can make and facilitate the transforms described above. This technology in not that uncommon (CHROMiX made a piggy-back application to ColorThink Pro called ColorCast years ago that does something essentially similar). DeviceLink profiles and abstract profiles are other derivative technologies that merge or transform source and simulation data. Assumptions are made of course under the hood, and it doesn't always work for every condition. So it would be interesting to hear it from NEC, and of course from field testers, before any proven methods could be adopted.
Rick Hatmaker
CHROMiX
This is an interesting post Rick. I know there are two PA models, why I wanted to know which Larry was speaking of, which he has clarified. In any event, both of them are supposed to be able to represent most of ARGB(98), which made me wonder about the emphasis on sRGB
Of more interest to me is the idea of direct softproofing in the display LUT. Could you elaborate a bit on how one would go about implementing this, and whether you have experimented with it on one of the NEC-PA models?
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that's why all the best have electronic uniformity compensation. Eizo CG doesn't even have the possibility to turn it off.
yes,it is nice that they give you a choice of 5-6 different settings, you can max contrast when uniformity is not quite as key or crank it all the way if that matters more than anything (and sometimes for print profiling you still are left with a lot more CR than any print just doing that alone so it's not a problem there at all)
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Could someone please clarify the situation with these NEC PA series monitors for me ?
The PA series are supplied with Multiprofiler software that uses a "Spectraview engine" according to NEC's webs site ( http://www.necdisplay.com/multiprofiler/ (http://www.necdisplay.com/multiprofiler/) ).
As yet they don't seem to be offered as a "Spectraview" variant. (ie the the better old Multisyncs were offered as 'Spectraview' monitors with selected units, hoods and 'Spectraview(aka Basicolor) calibration and profiling software).
Is it planned to offer to 'Spectraview' model based on the PA series monitors or are they equal to the older series already ?
Can the supplied Multiprofiler software match the old Spectraview software with respect to controlling the hardware of the monitor, as seems to be implied in the link above ?
Anyone any idea if the previous global differences between NEC monitors continue with this series ? (In the past US models of the Spectraview weren't supplied with the software and had to be bought in addition to the monitor as I understand it). Will European versions have the Multiproifler software included ?
Edit: As it's possible to freely download the Multiprofilier software direct from NEC's site without problems, I'd guess it's a global supply.
Thanks
Paul
In the UK
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Paul:
Yes, the SV versions of the PA series are shipping, although at lower quantity and frequency than non-SV versions, so backorders have been occurring for short periods.
I wouldn't know about the non-USA supply issues though.
Rick Hatmaker
CHROMiX
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There is at least one thread here that talks about the difference between the European and the US versions of the PA series. My recollection is that there is a special European version that has the SV kit tied to the LCD in software and has a hand selected LCD panel.
Frank Worley
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Paul:
Yes, the SV versions of the PA series are shipping,...
I wouldn't know about the non-USA supply issues though.
Thanks Rick. No mention of a 27" Spectraview model on the UK NEC site yet.
Can you say what advantage the Spectraview software offers over Multiprofiler ?
I can live without specially selected panels and a hood, but I'd like to know if the Sv software will be worth the extra cash.
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Thanks Rick. No mention of a 27" Spectraview model on the UK NEC site yet.
Can you say what advantage the Spectraview software offers over Multiprofiler ?
I can live without specially selected panels and a hood, but I'd like to know if the Sv software will be worth the extra cash.
I can't say since the European SV software is said to 100% different from the US SV software.
Only the multiprofiler software is the same.
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I got to use my NEC puck on another PA241W.
One thing I noticed is that if I measured white point right after startup I got .310,.329 pretty close to the standard, but if I let them warm up for 15-30min I got the .307-.308-.330-.334 range values.
What compensation mode and what part of the screen you measure the primaries on also makes a bit of a difference.
sRGB spec is:
R .640,.330
G .300,.600
B .150,.060
W .3127,.3290
For screen1 I got values along the lines of
R .634-.635, .330
G .297-.300, .601-.605
B .151, .060-.062
W .307-.308, .326-.331
For screen2:
R .639-.640, .325-.326
G .299-.301, .602-.604
B .152,.063-.064
W.306-.310 (mostly near .307),.330-.334
Anyway it seems clear that:
0. the NEC puck I have is doing a pretty solid job on measuring sRGB primaries at least, probably within .002-.003 of perfection
1. since probably no screen under $4000+ is super, super 100% even, there always has to be a bit of something off a little someway or another, especially the white point, so modest variations are sort of meaningless.
2. the sets will vary a bit in factory set primaries, but not too much really, i'm sure the probe itself is a bit off but there were some consistent difference, the screen2 tended to have a bit higher By and Rx and a bit lower Ry compared to screen1 so there will be modest screen to screen differences from the factory, but it would seem they probably vary at most .005 and more like .001-002 on avg, not bad at all
3. aside perhaps from the WB being a bit cool (and you are free to adjust it yourself), the sRGB mode is pretty solid indeed
For reference here are the primaries as measured by a DTP94b of a Samsung HDTV (standard, NON-wide gamut) after careful calibration:
R .624,.334
G .310,.574
B .149,.059
W .313,.329
(all luminances within 1%)
Notice that this actual NON-wide gamut display appears (granted we are now using two different probes, etc. so some error may be false and it all gets a bit dicey) to have a noticeably farther off from spec R and G, only B is a trace better.
Overall, the sRGB emulation mode of the PA241W actually comes closer to spec than a typical sRGB display (and one that even has a full-control CMS at that) at least in terms of gamut even straight from the factory! The WB does appear as if it probabyl does come a bit cool from the factory (although it could just be my probe) but it can be adjusted. So I currently have the sRGB mode more true to sRGB than my sRGB HDTV.
Of course there is the whole metamerism issue, which is kind of a tricky thing.
In terms of native gamut screen 1 and screen 2 had one slight difference measured, for some reason screen 2 By only went down to 0.06 instead of 0.055, which seems odd.
The screens were fairly different in the ways in which each demonstrated some non-uniformity (as all screens do).
And for photo editing all of this is somewhat irrelevant, for the most part (maybe someone picky ones to drop to sRGB to pick out subtle skin tones within the sRGB gamut), since you'd certainly use the native gamut. But for all the non-managed stuff....
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Thanks Rick. No mention of a 27" Spectraview model on the UK NEC site yet.
Can you say what advantage the Spectraview software offers over Multiprofiler ?
I can live without specially selected panels and a hood, but I'd like to know if the Sv software will be worth the extra cash.
Multiprofiler calibrates and profiles the display without the sensor, basing on factory calibration.
US Spectraview II calibrates and profiles the display with the sensor
European Spectraview display 4 calibrates and profiles the display with the sensor, but it only works with selected, certified Spectraview units, that are unblocked in the firmware.
The options are: you can get regular PA and calibrate it using Multiprofiler, you can get regular PA + Spectraview II (only available in US), or you can get the european Spectraview Reference PA, with the hood and Spectraview display 4 (aka basICColor) software.
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Multiprofiler calibrates and profiles the display without the sensor, basing on factory calibration.
US Spectraview II calibrates and profiles the display with the sensor
European Spectraview display 4 calibrates and profiles the display with the sensor, but it only works with selected, certified Spectraview units, that are unblocked in the firmware.
The options are: you can get regular PA and calibrate it using Multiprofiler, you can get regular PA + Spectraview II (only available in US), or you can get the european Spectraview Reference PA, with the hood and Spectraview display 4 (aka basICColor) software.
Do you know their logic behind offering these differences? It seems the Europeans would appreciate having access to a sensor and SVII without spending a fortune for a reference series monitor.
This makes me wonder.. my NEC 2690's were special ordered for me by NEC Thailand and took forever to arrive. Did I get lucky getting models I can use with SVII? Or am I possibly using SVII and I'm a total dolt because the firmware is blocking whatever (what does it block?).. Or are all Asian based models the same as the USA?
Two things of interest:
1. My NEC Colorimeter has been shipped via Amazon FROM NEC after "not available" for the last 30 days or so.. and ordering them when they were listed as available and having them become not available at several places. New pucks? I dunno.. but it should be here by the end of next week and it will be interesting to see what differences if any there are compared to my 1id2..
2. If any European is interested in buying US products.. but the store will not ship it directly to you. A very common (and becoming even more common) issue as international credit card fraud organized crime becomes a huge problem.. I've recently found and have tested a business that lets you order and ship your item to this businesses US address.. where you then go on line and fill out your own custom forms (just tell them there's a $10 stuffed tiger in that big box), and then they'll shop it to you via your carrier of choice. Their fees are very reasonable and so far they've been very easy to deal with. For instance.. on Amazon a NEC LCD2690uxi2 is about $850. No tax is charged to have it delivered to the US address. An inexpensive shipping option to Europe might take 2-3 weeks and cost $150-$200 USD's.. Not a bad savings..
The issue with this and why I didn't do this for my monitors (they charged me full retain on outgoing monitors) was I wanted the 4 year warranty and NEC Thailand picks up and delivers for repairs and leaves you a nice loaner.. But I did go this route for my puck and software (NEC Thailand claims they can't get these items which I find strange) and a few other items.
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I'm interesting in picking up any experience members of this forum may have using these PA series displays in a Mac Pro with the Radeon 4870 graphics card. The reason I ask is because Lloyd Chambers (DigLloyd) - on his website - has advised readers about issues he's experienced using that card Mac Performance Guide (http://macperformanceguide.com/), yet it is a more powerful device than the nVidia GT120 and ATI/AMD are said to have particular expertise on 10-bit display support.
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Paul, Mark:
MultiProfiler software and SpectraView software are two different softwares. There is some confusion between the 'SpectraView Engine' which is on all PA models and the SpectraView calibration software. The SpectraView Engine is the name of the new 'processor' inside the PA that correlates the initial factory calibration with internal luminance, temperature and time monitoring of the monitor. To reiterate, the SpectraView Engine and SpectraView software are separate. You get the SpectraView Engine automatically when you buy a PA model. You would need to buy SpectraView software ($89 at NEC online) or get it in an SV Bundle. MultiProfiler is free, so far.
MultiProfiler does many things:
- Switches between Picture Modes (5)
- Auto creates a profile based on the current Picture Mode
- Interacts this profile with the OS
- Allows insertion of a different simulation profile into the 3D LUT
- and more...
<http://www.necdisplay.com/multiprofiler/>
Although newer, MultiProfiler seems to be intended as a utility and facilitator. MP relies on the PA models initial internal calibration from the NEC factory. This is a key difference between MultiProfiler and SpectraView. SpectraView calibration software (which is currently in revision) allows the user to update the internal factory calibration reference as they wish (once a month, or whatever your calibration routine is). As a monitor degrades, this is a clear advantage for SpectraView. But SpectraView does not do all the things listed above that MultiProfiler does.
Finally, its very likely that many discerning users will want to use both SpectraView and MultiProfiler, even though there is some overlap. For our higher end customers, we would most always recommend both at the moment.
I hope that helps.
Rick Hatmaker
CHROMiX
Could someone please clarify the situation with these NEC PA series monitors for me ?
The PA series are supplied with Multiprofiler software that uses a "Spectraview engine" according to NEC's webs site ( http://www.necdisplay.com/multiprofiler/ (http://www.necdisplay.com/multiprofiler/) ).
As yet they don't seem to be offered as a "Spectraview" variant. (ie the the better old Multisyncs were offered as 'Spectraview' monitors with selected units, hoods and 'Spectraview(aka Basicolor) calibration and profiling software).
Is it planned to offer to 'Spectraview' model based on the PA series monitors or are they equal to the older series already ?
Can the supplied Multiprofiler software match the old Spectraview software with respect to controlling the hardware of the monitor, as seems to be implied in the link above ?
Anyone any idea if the previous global differences between NEC monitors continue with this series ? (In the past US models of the Spectraview weren't supplied with the software and had to be bought in addition to the monitor as I understand it). Will European versions have the Multiproifler software included ?
Edit: As it's possible to freely download the Multiprofilier software direct from NEC's site without problems, I'd guess it's a global supply.
Thanks
Paul
In the UK
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Thanks Rick, that clarifies a lot about the display software options. I'm still wondering about the choice of a Radeon 4870 to drive it. Any experience anyone here has using it would be helpful to know about.
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I'm interesting in picking up any experience members of this forum may have using these PA series displays in a Mac Pro with the Radeon 4870 graphics card. The reason I ask is because Lloyd Chambers (DigLloyd) - on his website - has advised readers about issues he's experienced using that card Mac Performance Guide (http://macperformanceguide.com/), yet it is a more powerful device than the nVidia GT120 and ATI/AMD are said to have particular expertise on 10-bit display support.
Sorry can't help there at all.
From his review though:
"The PA271W gamut is terrific: it encompasses more greens, and also more reds and deep blues; it appears to be a strict superset of the LCD3090WQXi gamut. This is very impressive, especially since that inner triangle (yellow border) is the AdobeRGB gamut, which cannot represent reds well at all! The PA271W does have a higher contrast ratio, so this might explain its wider gamut versus the 30" 3090WQXi. "
I can say that the contrast ratio has less than nothing to do with the gamut of a display.
And more importantly, while it is true that the gamut of the PA series DOES extend violets/reds/magentas beyond AdobeRGB it is also true that many, many people get tricked by the traditional 2D slice of the 3D gamuts shown and think that AdobeRGB does nothing to expand reds/magentas over what sRGB does, when AdobeRGB actually does extend them considerably.
On the particular slice that is usually shown, it doesn't extend them any. However, look at slices at different levels along the Y axis and you'll see it expands them greatly at times. More to the point bring up any really intense sunset photo and then compare it as such: ProphotoRGB vs AdobeRGB vs sRGB. You will likely very notice very little difference on the NEC PA between the photo in pRGB or aRGB but likely some major differences when it is instead in sRGB. It's sort of become almost a given that everyone goes around and says that all AdobeRGB does is expand greens and cyans and that it does nothing for photos not having neon greens of deep cyans or blue-greens when it actually can have a very dramatic affect on how intense sunset orange-pink-reds or dramatic fall foliage look. I would even go so far as to say that more typical photos are helped by AdobeRGB in those colors than in the greens believe it or not.
That said the beyond AdobeRGB red/magenta zone that some wide gamut monitors, such as the NEC PA series, support certainly can be helpful. A photo taken of lupines shows the entire outer lower petal as a single shade when displayed in aRGB or sRGB and yet suddenly splits into two very distinct shades when in pRGB mode and viewed on the NEC. Sunsets sometimes pick up a few subtle extra shades too. And I never could get certain truly intense Japanese maples in the Fall to look close to how they did in real life before. Quite a few of those shots require some beyond aRGB shades in order to look correct. That said AdobeRGB itself already does bring you most of what you were missing (when using sRGB) in your fall foliage or sunset photos, although there will be a few shots with major differences.
I have to say that in general wide gamut monitors are nice indeed. Lots of flower and sunset photos never did quite come out right before and I always figured I must have set the WB wrong or blown a channel or done something wrong in general, but now I see that much of the problem was that my sRGB displays simply could not display the shades that actually had been captured just fine and when channels were blow they were only blow in sRGB colorspace. I also see that on a few photos I did some weird things trying to make up for missing colors on fall leaves, sunsets, flowers, deep blue-green ocean water, etc. when I edited photos before. Granted a majority of photos show pretty much no difference sRGB vs wide gamut, but when they do, it can be dramatic at times (sunsets,flowers,fall foliage are the most common cases).
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Rick, Czornyj
Thanks for the additional information.
The difficulty for us in Europe is that NEC have made no announcement of a Spectraview variant of the PA 271 yet. Although on previous experience they'll charge a very heavy premium for an SV version, currently about 35% more and no puck included either, at that rate it will be about $750 more!
I'm left pondering if just getting a PA will be good enough and if my existing Basicolor 4 software(supplied by NEC as SV) will work with the new monitor. Even if it won't, will I really loose much performance by just using the factory calibrations and profiling with GMB PMP or buying a newer copy of Basicolor when realeased ? (if it will function fully on a PA series monitor and not be crippled with SV hardware).
As the owner of a failing SV1980 with a big yellow stripe down it, I need a replacement monitor very soon and have a difficult decision to make in the next couple of weeks. Anyone know if the US PA271 is multi voltage/frequency ?
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Rick, Czornyj
Thanks for the additional information.
The difficulty for us in Europe is that NEC have made no announcement of a Spectraview variant of the PA 271 yet. Although on previous experience they'll charge a very heavy premium for an SV version, currently about 35% more and no puck included either, at that rate it will be about $750 more!
I'm left pondering if just getting a PA will be good enough and if my existing Basicolor 4 software(supplied by NEC as SV) will work with the new monitor. Even if it won't, will I really loose much performance by just using the factory calibrations and profiling with GMB PMP or buying a newer copy of Basicolor when realeased ? (if it will function fully on a PA series monitor and not be crippled with SV hardware).
As the owner of a failing SV1980 with a big yellow stripe down it, I need a replacement monitor very soon and have a difficult decision to make in the next couple of weeks. Anyone know if the US PA271 is multi voltage/frequency ?
basICColor won't hardware calibrate a non Spectraview Reference PA panel at all - it checks the firmware and doesn't acces the internal LUT of the display, when it's not an EU Spectraview version. You can still use US Spectraview II profiler - it works democratically with all PA displays.
As a rule - in EU we have to pay more for something that complies with standards. Spectraview Reference displays are certified by Fogra, manually selected and verified by a technican, so we pay premium cash for a quality double check, and a blessing of graphic technology research institute. We don't need to be ISO certified photographers, so it's not that really important for us - we can get regular PA display, use Multiprofiler, or get Spectraview II kit from US just to feel better
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or get Spectraview II kit from US just to feel better
Unfortunately this does not seem to be an option any longer, as the NEC sensor is completely out of stock, even at the NEC store itself. I am trying to get hold of one myself without success.
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Unfortunately this does not seem to be an option any longer, as the NEC sensor is completely out of stock, even at the NEC store itself. I am trying to get hold of one myself without success.
If you have PA with Multiprofiler, it's really not a matter of life and death. To be honest - I'm not even sure what really works better - Spectraview with the sensor, or Multiprofiler without a sensor. The differences are small enought to be caused by sensors inconsistency, we'd have to test it with reference lab grade spectroradiometer to be 100% sure.
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If you have PA with Multiprofiler, it's really not a matter of life and death. To be honest - I'm not even sure what really works better - Spectraview with the sensor, or Multiprofiler without a sensor. The differences are small enought to be caused by sensors inconsistency, we'd have to test it with reference lab grade spectrophotometer to be ascertaind.
I hear, but the monitor is new, the factory calibration is therefor recent, and the drift can be more easily predicted than when the display will get older. What will be in half a year, or a year, or more? Will the software predictions of the drift still be accurate? Can they be? With all the possible variables.
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I hear, but the monitor is new, the factory calibration is therefor recent, and the drift can be more easily predicted than when the display will get older. What will be in half a year, or a year, or more? Will the software predictions of the drift still be accurate? Can they be? With all the possible variables.
I don't think that Multiprofiler software or NEC hardware can predict (and compensate) any drift in NEC monitors.
BTW the native White Point CCT in my NEC 2690WUXi2 drifted from 6500 K to 5700 K in a year.
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I don't think that Multiprofiler software or NEC hardware can predict (and compensate) any drift in NEC monitors.
BTW the native White Point CCT in my NEC 2690WUXi2 drifted from 6500 K to 5700 K in a year.
This is not 100% sure information, and I don't rememer the details exactly, but I've heard, that PA has some kind of CCFL drift compensation. It seems to be predictible - my 3090WQXi native wtpt also drifted to CCT 5700K after 1600h of work.
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Unfortunately this does not seem to be an option any longer, as the NEC sensor is completely out of stock, even at the NEC store itself. I am trying to get hold of one myself without success.
For some reason a few weeks ago they pulled them from the shelves (unconfirmed rumor backed up by 4 different places I ordered them "in stock" and then they weren't..)..
However, the good news is mine shipped (ordered from Amazon and shipped from NEC) this week..
Try Amazon.
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If you have PA with Multiprofiler, it's really not a matter of life and death. To be honest - I'm not even sure what really works better - Spectraview with the sensor, or Multiprofiler without a sensor. The differences are small enought to be caused by sensors inconsistency, we'd have to test it with reference lab grade spectroradiometer to be 100% sure.
tentatively, by comparing with a color checker chart in a room with windows open but not direct sun (so hopefully vaguely D65 overcastish), both the SVII calibration and factory preset actually looked closer to what I saw on the chart than my DTP94b calibrated sRGB HDTV showed (that was only calibrated using controls, not with profiling software yet though).
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Could someone comment on the 3D LUT feature of these new PA series displays. What exactly is the advantage of this vs a 2690WUXi2 calibrated for either sRGB Mode or Adobe RGB Space? Does this new 3D LUT allow non managed color apps i.e. windows to look normal while in wide gamut mode?
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Could someone comment on the 3D LUT feature of these new PA series displays. What exactly is the advantage of this vs a 2690WUXi2 calibrated for either sRGB Mode or Adobe RGB Space? Does this new 3D LUT allow non managed color apps i.e. windows to look normal while in wide gamut mode?
nothing can do that other than color-managed software, but you can make a wide gamut MONITOR when NOT in wide gamut mode work 100% fine with non-color managed stuff by putting it into sRGB emulation mode (all sRGB stuff will look fine, whether the program is managed or not) or emulation aRGB mode (but only images in aRGB will look normal in non-color managed stuff then, sRGB stuff will look weird).
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nothing can do that other than color-managed software, but you can make a wide gamut MONITOR when NOT in wide gamut mode work 100% fine with non-color managed stuff by putting it into sRGB emulation mode (all sRGB stuff will look fine, whether the program is managed or not) or emulation aRGB mode (but only images in aRGB will look normal in non-color managed stuff then, sRGB stuff will look weird).
Doesn't the existing series already do this? I guess what is the difference with the 2690WUXI2 sRGB mode and this new series?
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Doesn't the existing series already do this? I guess what is the difference with the 2690WUXI2 sRGB mode and this new series?
Actually I guess you are correct. The 2690^2 version does appear to let you calibrate the white point of the sRGB mode, the original version did not.
It still only has 1D 12bit LUTs and not 14bit 3D though so hah!
(without a 3D LUT green often looks like orange and sometimes white switches with black )
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Actually I guess you are correct. The 2690^2 version does appear to let you calibrate the white point of the sRGB mode, the original version did not.
It still only has 1D 12bit LUTs and not 14bit 3D though so hah!
(without a 3D LUT green often looks like orange and sometimes white switches with black )
I think one of the most interesting features if I understand it correctly. Is that I can calibrate to my printer profile. Wouldn't that eliminate the need for soft proofing?
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I think one of the most interesting features if I understand it correctly. Is that I can calibrate to my printer profile. Wouldn't that eliminate the need for soft proofing?
Post #3 describes the status of this process.
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Actually I guess you are correct. The 2690^2 version does appear to let you calibrate the white point of the sRGB mode, the original version did not.
It still only has 1D 12bit LUTs and not 14bit 3D though so hah!
(without a 3D LUT green often looks like orange and sometimes white switches with black )
Without 3D LUT you can only calibrate RGB gain and TRC - but you can't precisely calibrate chromatic coordinates of displays colorants. A 3D LUT display can simulate virtually any color space that's covered by its gamut, and considering that it uses 14(16)-10bit path one can expect, that the simulation might be better than standard simulation done by application CMM, that can only use 8bit.
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Now I'm not entirely sure how the old 90 series did it but it seems like the 3D Lut means that the PA series can be calibrated using few data points.
For instance you can bring up multiprofiler and go into custom mode edit and then using SVII measure the primaries and white point and then you are set. Just dial in chromaticity coordinates in MP until the SVII patch reading for the primary matches reference, do the same for white balance and then just tell it what gamma you want and what brightness and you are set. The 3D Lut handles the interplay of everything at once and from those simple inputs (plus a few factory values) delivers the proper secondaries with proper luminances and the entire gray-scale and everything else.
Seriously in literally just two minutes I got the below (see next post) results for sRGB primary and gamma 2.2 (for blu-ray/TV) mode in multiprofiler.
I managed to use an i1Pro for this so I could get some sort of extra sanity check and see how the results read out and be able to look at how saturation tracks too, etc.
reference is:
R .640,.330
G .300,.600
B .150,.060
W .3127,.3290
to get a little closer to that (according to i1pro at least) I entered for the coordinates:
R .640,.333 (read back as .640,.300)
G .300,.596 (read back as .300,.600)
B .150,.056 (read back as .152 there is no way to get it better the display doesn't quite make .150 no matter what,.060)
W .319,.332
you can see that the i1pro didn't suggest much change other than for Wx, Gy and By and even then only Wx was more than .005 change
for reference when I used the NEC puck I had to enter:
R .642,.333
G .300,.597
B .150,.056
W .319,.334
so you can see that the i1Pro and the NEC puck (USED IN SVII only, outside of SVII it reads WAYYYY differently than the i1Pro or DTP94b pucks) were in remarkable agreement, and aside from WB both were in reasonably close agreement with factory settings.
I think it is pretty clear that NEC really does apply a custom calibration to the i1D2 NEC puck and also provides highly customized tables for each of their displays for it since an off the shelf puck has something like an average 8dE and up to 18dE copy to copy variation according to one study and it seems like considering that it would be quite unusual that my NEC puck and i1Pro would be so close if they didn't custom calib each hardware unit plus provide a table for each monitor on top.
The NEC puck and the i1Pro actually provided more closely matching results both reading the primaries one monitor than the NEC puck reading the sRGB primaries of two different NEC PA241W monitors. Are the factory presets any better than the puck readings then??? perhaps, but I wonder a little now. Not sure about the native primary readings, maybe different there.
Of course keep in mind even with compensation on from spot to spot there will be some variation across the screen and all the measuring units have some error and so on so none of this is to the nth decimal point in reality. So the reality that things are never nearly so close as we think we ahve gotten them with out calibrations and charts and going for every little detail.
I definitely do see metamerism issue comparing wide gamut to sRGB displays though, they simply don't look the same. To my eye the wide gamuts with no correction actually appear to match real life (suing a color check chart) a little bit better, but who knows. Using the metamerism toggle makes white and quite a few shades look more similar between the two display types (while making certain other shades seem even more off) but they still don't look the same.
It is a tricky issue and a little troubling since it seems like images edited on a wide gamut in regular mode won't quite look the same if you switch to an sRGB-gamut monitor, at least for some people and possibly the degree of difference varies a lot from person to person. A tricky business.
In some ways I wonder if it not the sRGB gamuts that are more troubled though since I could swear that a real-life CC chart more closely matched the look on the wide gamut although it didn't exactly look the same in either case.
I wonder what a reference CRT looks more like, a wide gamut CCFL LCD, wide gamut+metamerism toggle CCFL LCD, CCFL sRGB LCD, LED sRGB LCD or RGB LED sRGB LCD? hah.
Some say the whole tri-stim color management system is basically a failure when it comes to getting different display technologies to deliver identical looking results to the eye.
Oddly the srGB monitor calib with DTP looked closer to the NEC+i1orNEC puck+metamerism than the i1pro used on both and the i1pro sRGB seemed perhaps even a bit farther away from a real life color checker chart comparison. (The NEC puck on the sRGB monitor using third party software made an awful looking calibration it made it look really red it sort of did what the i1pro did compared to the dtp only did that about 100x as much) Probably need a 1nm $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ spectro to get a better clue, I think some display types can have very spiky spectrums that might throw off some colorimeters and even a 10nm resolution i1Pro.
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Since the i1Pro is supposed to be reasonable ok on some wide gamut monitors (although i'm sure it might still miss some sharp spectrum spikes) here is what I measured from the sRGB gamma 2.2 mode I programmed in multi-profiler (in all of about 2 minutes):
Tracking of primaries and secondaries saturation (on top) and saturation hue shift (on bottom) with respect to measured primary and secondaries:
(http://www.smugmug.com/photos/935962421_Zq8o7-X2.jpg)
Tracking of primaries and secondaries saturation (on top) and saturation hue shift (on bottom) with respect to theoretical exact sRGB specs:
(http://www.smugmug.com/photos/935962440_erjqN-X2.jpg)
Saturation luminance tracking of primaries:
(http://www.smugmug.com/photos/935962459_T38sW-X2.jpg)
Gray-scale tracking:
(http://www.smugmug.com/photos/935962713_ErzHd-X2.jpg)
(http://www.smugmug.com/photos/935962753_vicK7-X2.jpg)
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continued....
Color temperature tracking:
but whether the metamerism issue tosses it who knows?
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It seems like maybe the monitor drifts the first few weeks until the factory pre-set white point is closer to D65?
perhaps they start it a bit off so that it tends to settle in closer for the long haul??
above I needed to set: W .319,.332 to get i1pro measured .313,.329 and now I need to set only W .315-.316,.329
granted the WP does vary across the screen but I tried to test areas all around the spot
in the end I also went with what seemed the most average patch to adjust
these were at compensation level 4
short time monitor and instrument drift and slight changes spot to spot on top of inherent instrument systematic error and uncertainty do make it tricky to every really figure everything out
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It seems like maybe the monitor drifts the first few weeks until the factor
short time monitor and instrument drift and slight changes spot to spot on top of inherent instrument systematic error and uncertainty do make it tricky to every really figure everything out
My 2690uxi2's certainly drifted significantly until about 500-600 hours of use.. now they've settled down.
Considering the physical location of the back lights the screens will always vary from one location on the screen to the next.. which brings us back to square one.. no matter which puck, screen, etc, if you get it close enough to match your prints in a closed system its about as much as you can expect.. and the sRGB emulation mode helps keep us "close" but not perfect across the web.
There's always going to be some variance and nothing makes this more clear than my (2) LCD2690uxi2's side by side, one has 1000 more hours than the other (ordered at the same time, delivered 5 weeks apart), one day the white point visually matches, the next day there's a slight difference. When there's a difference which monitor is correct? Why does it change? Of course those are rhetorical questions but it just goes to show when dealing with the finer aspects of white points there's no perfect system out there. Though.. I'm still tempted to pick up a few of those 21.5" RGB LED backlit NEC's that are now at rock bottom prices and give them a try out of pure curiosity..
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My 2690uxi2's certainly drifted significantly until about 500-600 hours of use.. now they've settled down.
Considering the physical location of the back lights the screens will always vary from one location on the screen to the next.. which brings us back to square one.. no matter which puck, screen, etc, if you get it close enough to match your prints in a closed system its about as much as you can expect.. and the sRGB emulation mode helps keep us "close" but not perfect across the web.
There's always going to be some variance and nothing makes this more clear than my (2) LCD2690uxi2's side by side, one has 1000 more hours than the other (ordered at the same time, delivered 5 weeks apart), one day the white point visually matches, the next day there's a slight difference. When there's a difference which monitor is correct? Why does it change? Of course those are rhetorical questions but it just goes to show when dealing with the finer aspects of white points there's no perfect system out there. Though.. I'm still tempted to pick up a few of those 21.5" RGB LED backlit NEC's that are now at rock bottom prices and give them a try out of pure curiosity..
and toss metamerism in too boot and it's hopeless
wide gamut LCD displays just don't like standard gamut LCD displays to me, with or without metamerism comp/10 degree comp and neither looks the same to me as a real life color checker chart (although the wide gamut monitors actually look, to my eyes, closer to the real life colors than the standard ones not sure if that would be the same for most of if for some reason my eyes see a more natural color out of wide gamut monitors than standard)
but more seriously i really wonder if they realize that the screen will drift a lot the first 200-400 hours and purposely undershot the factory white point calibration. It's at 260 hours now. It will be interesting to see if it settles in perfectly at 400 and then stays there for a while.... (not that it matters so much if you have a puck i guess but I wonder if the reviews that all also got it too cool to start should've waited a while to measure first)
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Hey Larry,
I just got my PA271W and tried to use the sRGB mode for non-color managed applications. The sRGB preset seems so dark at 80 cd/m. I believe this is part of the sRGB standard, but is it so low because the standard is from the days of CRTs?
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The sRGB preset seems so dark at 80 cd/m. I believe this is part of the sRGB standard, but is it so low because the standard is from the days of CRTs?
Of course.