Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Colour Management => Topic started by: shayaweiss on June 05, 2010, 09:55:02 pm

Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: shayaweiss on June 05, 2010, 09:55:02 pm
Hi,

I had two pinkish Eizo FlexScan 2233w. I build my profiles with i1D2. The one screen that was very pinkish is about to be exchanged by the vendor. They call it an "uniformity problem". Meanwhile they borrowed me another FlexScan 2233w. This one seams better (but is not uniform in color throughout the screen).

I know that these are not color edge monitors, but I would non the less expect i1 Display 2 to be able to bring them somewhere close to each other.

I was on the phone with x-rite last week, for more than 60 minutes, they gave up!!!

What could be the problem? Maybe I had just two more or less pinkish monitors and the rental monitor is finally a better one? But still, why can't eye-one bring them closer?
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: ddk on June 06, 2010, 03:03:41 am
Quote from: shayaweiss
Hi,

I had two pinkish Eizo FlexScan 2233w. I build my profiles with i1D2. The one screen that was very pinkish is about to be exchanged by the vendor. They call it an "uniformity problem". Meanwhile they borrowed me another FlexScan 2233w. This one seams better (but is not uniform in color throughout the screen).

I know that these are not color edge monitors, but I would non the less expect i1 Display 2 to be able to bring them somewhere close to each other.

I was on the phone with x-rite last week, for more than 60 minutes, they gave up!!!

What could be the problem? Maybe I had just two more or less pinkish monitors and the rental monitor is finally a better one? But still, why can't eye-one bring them closer?

This issue with Eizo monitors comes up here regularly and people go crazy trying to fix it. Eizos need a break-in period of about 2 to 3 weeks, the problem will clear itself after this break-in period. Read the older posts, you'll see the pattern of people going nuts over the same issue and then suddenly it's fixed after a couple of weeks.
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: ErikKaffehr on June 06, 2010, 04:55:22 am
Hi,

Are your monitors on same computer or two different ones. If same computer, are you using two different graphics card or a single one with two outputs? Which OS are you using?

All these questions matter!

Best regards
Erik



Quote from: shayaweiss
Hi,

I had two pinkish Eizo FlexScan 2233w. I build my profiles with i1D2. The one screen that was very pinkish is about to be exchanged by the vendor. They call it an "uniformity problem". Meanwhile they borrowed me another FlexScan 2233w. This one seams better (but is not uniform in color throughout the screen).

I know that these are not color edge monitors, but I would non the less expect i1 Display 2 to be able to bring them somewhere close to each other.

I was on the phone with x-rite last week, for more than 60 minutes, they gave up!!!

What could be the problem? Maybe I had just two more or less pinkish monitors and the rental monitor is finally a better one? But still, why can't eye-one bring them closer?
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: shayaweiss on June 06, 2010, 05:33:36 am
Quote from: ddk
This issue with Eizo monitors comes up here regularly and people go crazy trying to fix it. Eizos need a break-in period of about 2 to 3 weeks, the problem will clear itself after this break-in period. Read the older posts, you'll see the pattern of people going nuts over the same issue and then suddenly it's fixed after a couple of weeks.


ddk,

I read the posts here, but all three monitors did already have their break-in period! Also the monitors are pinkish to a different degree.
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: shayaweiss on June 06, 2010, 05:44:36 am
Quote from: ErikKaffehr
Hi,

Are your monitors on same computer or two different ones. If same computer, are you using two different graphics card or a single one with two outputs? Which OS are you using?

All these questions matter!

Best regards
Erik


Erik,

The monitors are on the same Win7 64bit 8Ram Desktop Computer with one GeForce GT 220 graphic card, using two DVI connections (one via an HDMI to DVI adaptor). I changed the connections between the monitors, but each one kept his particular tint.
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: Czornyj on June 06, 2010, 07:38:09 am
Quote from: shayaweiss
Erik,

The monitors are on the same Win7 64bit 8Ram Desktop Computer with one GeForce GT 220 graphic card, using two DVI connections (one via an HDMI to DVI adaptor). I changed the connections between the monitors, but each one kept his particular tint.

1) Did you calibrate the whitepoint of both displays using OSD "gain" control?

2) I had sometimes encounterd an issue with some nVidia graphic card drivers under Windows - the CMS identifies both displays as the same one, and when you're associating an ICC profile to a display, it's beeing incorrectly associatied to the second display. Check what ICC profiles are associated with each of the displays in system Color Management settings.
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: shayaweiss on June 06, 2010, 09:16:29 am
Quote from: Czornyj
1) Did you calibrate the whitepoint of both displays using OSD "gain" control?

2) I had sometimes encounterd an issue with some nVidia graphic card drivers under Windows - the CMS identifies both displays as the same one, and when you're associating an ICC profile to a display, it's beeing incorrectly associatied to the second display. Check what ICC profiles are associated with each of the displays in system Color Management settings.

1) Yes, I did set the white point with both displays own OSD using the gain control.

2) You are right about this confusion. In the beginning there was a mix up and contradictory information in the Windows system about which one is monitor1 and which profile applies. But after deconnecting and reconnecting numerous times, it now seems to be sorted out. At all levels of system intern info (including in the nVidia graphic card driver), monitor1 is the same monitor and also reacting to the appropriate profile. Same good news for monitor2.

But the problem remains unchanged!
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: Steve Weldon on June 06, 2010, 09:54:00 am
Quote from: shayaweiss
What could be the problem? Maybe I had just two more or less pinkish monitors and the rental monitor is finally a better one? But still, why can't eye-one bring them closer?
Running two monitors on the same computer introduces a host of issues that are both complex and frustrating to deal with.  Anyone who has done this successfully knows there is so much to consider that trying to help someone who hasn't done it before will take much effort.

To start with your video card appears to be a single GPU single LUT card.  While you can output a signal to two monitors, you can only assign one color profile across both outputs.  Two monitors, even the same make/model that came off the assembly line one after the other.. will need their own profiles.

This is just to start.  And no, please don't tell me it does this and that and a friend was able to do it..  Its just a fact, that if your monitors don't have built-in hardware LUT's then you'll need a graphic card that supports multiple LUT's.  Traditionally we used to say that one GPU equals one LUT and with Nvidia this is still true as far as I know.  ATI has brought things to a new and interesting level with their new 5xxx series cards which can actually handle 3 monitors.  This is recent and so far Nvidia hasn't done this.  Nvidia does sell dual GPU cards.. but yours doesn't appear to be one.

If you want to confirm what I said call Nvidia, ask for their advanced technical help, and ask them if your card has dual LUT's.  Don't bother asking if your card will support two monitors because most of the techs there don't know what a LUT is.. and your card does support two monitors.  It just doesn't support two monitors running two color profiles as the same time..

Once you solve this issue you move on to the next level.. more problems to come..
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: shayaweiss on June 06, 2010, 10:42:16 am
Steve,

What you wrote makes even sense to me (only, though I asked, nobody till now told me about this problem with the card, even not the Eizo importer). So, I will try to find another card, either ATI 5xxx series or a dual GPU card. BTW which one would be a good choice?

One thing though: How come that when I change the profile for one monitor it does definitely change only that one monitor? So the system seems to be able to handle two profiles!

Thanks for your help with this
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: ErikKaffehr on June 06, 2010, 12:32:00 pm
Hi,

Reason I'm asking is that color calibration would normally manipulate the CLUT (Color Look Up Table) on the graphic card. Most graphics card have a single CLUT, as far as I understand. I have not seen this myself, just repeating info I have seen on this forum. I don't think that calibrating dual monitors on Windows with a single graphics card is easy, and may even be impossible.

Also, be sure that you disable Adobe Gamma. Cannot tell how you do that, but I think it may interfere with your intentions.

Best regards
Erik


Quote from: shayaweiss
Erik,

The monitors are on the same Win7 64bit 8Ram Desktop Computer with one GeForce GT 220 graphic card, using two DVI connections (one via an HDMI to DVI adaptor). I changed the connections between the monitors, but each one kept his particular tint.
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: shayaweiss on June 06, 2010, 01:04:50 pm
You can simply uninstall Adobe Gamma, Erik, or take it out of the Startup...

With a dual head card there is no problem to calibrate and profile two monitors on a PC. Only I do not have a dual GPU card (I spent already so much on the two monitors). With Windows 7 it is possible to assign two separate profiles, one for each monitor. It's easy and simply. As I said before, you can simply control and change profiles in the advanced settings. I have no problem to change profile for one monitor and visually notice the change only on that one monitor, the other profile remaining in place and no visual changes occur on the other monitor. Everything looks perfectly well, on that side!
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: Czornyj on June 06, 2010, 01:15:36 pm
Quote from: shayaweiss
1) Yes, I did set the white point with both displays own OSD using the gain control.

2) You are right about this confusion. In the beginning there was a mix up and contradictory information in the Windows system about which one is monitor1 and which profile applies. But after deconnecting and reconnecting numerous times, it now seems to be sorted out. At all levels of system intern info (including in the nVidia graphic card driver), monitor1 is the same monitor and also reacting to the appropriate profile. Same good news for monitor2.

But the problem remains unchanged!

Eizo S2233W is very well linearized, so if there's still a magenta cast after calibration of wtpt via internal LUT of the display, I'd guess it's a matter of i1d2 colorimeter drawback.

Try out this profiler:
http://www.quato.de/german/software-display.php (http://www.quato.de/german/software-display.php)
It has some correction matrix for i1d2 colorimeter and extended gamut CCFL backlight spectra, so there's a chance it'll do a better job (don't forget to choose "wide gamut optimization>generic wide gamut S-IPS" option)
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: shayaweiss on June 06, 2010, 01:20:38 pm
Quote from: Czornyj
Eizo S2233W is very well linearized, so if there's still a magenta cast after calibration of wtpt via internal LUT of the display, I'd guess it's a matter of i1d2 colorimeter drawback.

Try out this profiler:
http://www.quato.de/german/software-display.php (http://www.quato.de/german/software-display.php)
It has some correction matrix for i1d2 colorimeter and extended gamut CCFL backlight spectra, so there's a chance it'll do a better job

I am on the way to try this profiler. Thanks Czorny!

Just how could it be that i1D2 has a problem with ONE monitor a lot more than with the other?
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: shayaweiss on June 06, 2010, 01:49:49 pm
Quote from: Steve Weldon
To start with your video card appears to be a single GPU single LUT card.

Steve,
Czorny just reminded me that I forgot to tell you that each Eiso s2233W monitor has his own LUT. So if I understand correctly, I don't even need a dual head video card?!
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: shayaweiss on June 06, 2010, 02:10:54 pm
Quote from: shayaweiss
I am on the way to try this profiler. Thanks Czorny!

I just installed the software. It seems a bit old and there is no way I could try it out if it works, as all the functions are locked until you buy it....
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: Steve Weldon on June 06, 2010, 02:36:40 pm
Quote from: shayaweiss
Steve,
Czorny just reminded me that I forgot to tell you that each Eiso s2233W monitor has his own LUT. So if I understand correctly, I don't even need a dual head video card?!

This would be correct though I'm not familiar with this monitor.  If it has its own internal hardware LUT   AND  you're using the proper software which is designed to access these LUT's then you should be able to get this to work with your current video card PROVIDING .. well.. a lot.. I'll run through a few things.  I've been running dual monitors side by side (identical models.. I'm now running two NEC LCD2690uxi2's..) for over ten years on various versions of Windows so it can indeed be done.  This is what I do..

1.  Uninstall anything but the base driver.  Go to msconfig.sys and your startup tray and disable anything from Nvidia but the base driver.  This is to start.  Later you can enable the extra stuff (the programs that enable you to adjust brightneess/color/contrast/etc) if you wish and see what if anything is causing an issue.

2.  Totally clear all current profiles from the Windows Color Management applet.  You'll find this under the Control Panel.  Yes, I know the color profile program should replace these.. but I've discovered funny things can happen which shouldn't during this exchange.  Start with a blank slate for both monitors.  Also go to windows/system32/spool/drivers/color and delete all your old profiles.

3.  Unplug your LAN cable or wireless card from the internet.

4.   Disable your virus checker or malware programs if any.

5.  Reboot, ensure you're running on the base video card driver only with no extras, the color manager is clear, and that your virus checkers are disabled.

6.  Run the color profiler software Eizo recommends to access the internal hardware LUT's for these monitors.. and follow their directions exactly.  Make sure the 1i2 is firmly but not pressed on the screen.   Either tilt your screens back so gravity does this.. or I personally use my back scratcher to lean on it.. ;o)


This is a start.. now.. Even with two like monitors there WILL be some white point variances between the two monitors which will be visible if you span a white background box across both monitors.. you'll find the colors and grays will look fine (if you did it right) but the whites can be off which is inconsequential.. but irritating.  NEC SVII provides a means to correct this small difference by eye.. and it works as advertised in every mode but sRGB Emulation.. an issue I'll be contacting NEC about this week as I'm just now setting my new 2690's..

Now.. you're going to find some weird differences attributed to Windows and Windows programs.  For instance.. some applications will pick up the proper profile if you drag the application from one monitor to the other.. others won't.  You'll need to learn which are which.  Just know that when it happens it's not necessarily an issue with your color setup.  Windows Explorer on the second monitor.. if displaying thumbnails and if you're using a wide gamut monitor.. might display those thumbnails with a very high saturated look.. but when you click on them and bring them up in your viewer of choice they'll be fine (provided your viewer of choice is color aware).. so don't worry about it..

There's a bucket load of other small issues and discrepancies when using two monitors.. once you get past the LUT issue you'll discover these.  But over all when processing images in the main image programs you'll be fine.

I'm using dual ATI 5770 cards and use one per monitor even though each card supposedly handles 3 LUT's.. and even though the monitors have internal LUT's and I'm using them via SVII.  I do this because I get less issues with the smaller stuff.. and because I also run a 1080p 50" HDTV for soft proofing with clients.. and yes a HDTV properly profiled can (providing its a quality unit) can display exact colors.. but how you color profile a HDTV depends on which input you're using and for what purpose.. each input (HDMI for PC, HDMI for media player box, HDMI for Blue-ray, cable box, etc, etc) needs to be separately adjusted and in different ways using different gear.. but thats another story..

Good luck.
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: ErikKaffehr on June 06, 2010, 02:49:50 pm
Hi,

You need dual head if you want to use both displays on the same computer at the same time.  Some short points:

1) More expensive monitors have hardware calibration. You connect the measuring device to the monitor and it takes care of the calibration.
2) All monitors do have internal luts but normally calibration software cannot handle that. Certain software may work with certain monitors.
3) There are two steps involved:

- Calibration sets up the monitor
- Characterization tells CM aware application what has been achieved

My experience has been that using two displays on Windows was problematic, at least with XP. On Mac it seems to work but it may be broken, it's hard to know.

This is what I hate with Color Management. It seems simple but there are a lot of small cobolts hiding in the detail, you never know if any of those bytes you.

Best regards
Erik

Quote from: shayaweiss
Steve,
Czorny just reminded me that I forgot to tell you that each Eiso s2233W monitor has his own LUT. So if I understand correctly, I don't even need a dual head video card?!
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: shayaweiss on June 06, 2010, 02:55:43 pm
Quote from: Steve Weldon
This would be correct though I'm not familiar with this monitor.  If it has its own internal hardware LUT   AND  you're using the proper software which is designed to access these LUT's then you should be able to get this to work with your current video card PROVIDING .. well.. a lot.. I'll run through a few things.  I've been running dual monitors side by side (identical models.. I'm now running two NEC LCD2690uxi2's..) for over ten years on various versions of Windows so it can indeed be done.  This is what I do..

I double checked the specks for the s2233W on the Eizo Website ( http://www.eizo.com/global/iblick/spec/?id=S2233W (http://www.eizo.com/global/iblick/spec/?id=S2233W) ) and it says "Look-up table: 10 bits per color".

About the software I am not sure. There is something called "Screen manager Pro", which is basically the OSD of the display ?!
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: shayaweiss on June 06, 2010, 03:55:00 pm
I thank everyone for their explanations and patience. There are still three points I don't get:

1) regarding Windows 7: In the advanced display settings, there is access to something called "color management". You assign a profile to each monitor, and as I described, it DOES work perfectly well. It assigns one profile to one monitor only, while leaving the other monitor at its setting.

2) i1D2 calibration makes the monitors ALWAYS look worse.

3) There is NO visual difference in appearance when I calibrate the monitors separately, in a single monitor setup (Deleting all previous profiles, uninstalling everything related, rebooting...) where it should realy not matter whether there is a dual head card or LUT, and whether the monitors are to be calibrated via hardware or software.
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: Steve Weldon on June 06, 2010, 04:29:27 pm
Quote from: shayaweiss
I double checked the specks for the s2233W on the Eizo Website ( http://www.eizo.com/global/iblick/spec/?id=S2233W (http://www.eizo.com/global/iblick/spec/?id=S2233W) ) and it says "Look-up table: 10 bits per color".

About the software I am not sure. There is something called "Screen manager Pro", which is basically the OSD of the display ?!
Unless an Eizo user speaks up here.. I would call Eizo and ask them what software they recommend that takes advantage of the hardware LUT's.. and to ensure they indeed have hardware LUT's.  12i does not access internal LUT's.. it uses the LUT's on graphics cards and if you're using their software I can almost guarantee you.. with your video card it won't work.

Let me be very clear on something and I'm not trying to be controlling or a smartass or anything.. but explaining this stuff to you takes significant time and effort.  The reason most people who have this knowledge don't answer posts like yours is because usually the OP doesn't listen, argues, or says thank you and then listens to the easiest answer instead of putting in the work and effort we know it takes.  If you're willing to follow 'exactly' the steps I recommend I don't mind helping.. but if you're just fishing for the easiest answers then I'm wasting my time.  Its my opinion.. many people end up with something they're loosely satisfied with but never really understand it.. and it's a period of time.. sometimes years.. until they move up to their next level.. until they realize they've been doing it wrong all along.  So yes, an easy answer might get you something you can live with for now.. maybe.. but to do this right there really is only one path to take..   Your choice.

Like I said.. the first steps..

1.  Call Eizo and confirm your model of monitor has or does not have internal LUT's, and exactly what software can access them.  If you have internal LUT's you'll want to use them over anything else.

2.  If you don't have internal LUT's the next step is to call Nvidia and confirm if your card had dual LUT's or not.  I'm almost positive it does not.. but never take anyones word for these things.. and be careful what technician you listen to at Nvidia.. if they go "LUT what?" or hesitate in anyway.. or doesn't know immediately what you're talking about.. then ask to talk to a senior/advanced tech.. because all that guy will do is read the same manual you've already read.. and probably come up with the wrong answer.
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: shayaweiss on June 06, 2010, 04:51:38 pm
Steve,

I thank you again for your time and patience! Please do take my word that I sit in front of this problem for a view days (including the whole weekend without interruption trying to read up more), that I phoned and called all the support and assistances I could get, including a week ago an hour long conversation with X-rite tech support and Eizo... It costs me a lot of time, money and fatigue. That's why I am thankful for help like your's, because you definitely do seam do have some answers.

To the point:
*** EIZO monitor. I know that one can NOT perform hardware calibration on these s2233w.

*** GeForce GT220 supports the use of two ICC profiles for separate monitors, according to an offical paper on the Nvidia Customer help website ( http://nvidia.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/nvidia....eHQ9ZHVhbCBsdXQ (http://nvidia.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/nvidia.cfg/php/enduser/popup_adp.php?p_faqid=77&p_created=1097595892&p_sid=yAta8N1k&p_lva=&p_li=&p_redirect=&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPTEmcF9zb3J0X2J5PSZwX2dyaWRzb3J0PSZwX3Jvd19jbnQ9MSwxJnBfcHJvZHM9MCZwX2NhdHM9MCZwX3B2PSZwX2N2PSZwX3NlYXJjaF90eXBlPWFuc3dlcnMuc2VhcmNoX25sJnBfcGFnZT0xJnBfc2VhcmNoX3RleHQ9ZHVhbCBsdXQ)! )

Quote
Does NVIDIA support (LUT) Look Up Tables for display calibration purposes?
     Question
     

Does NVIDIA support (LUT) Look Up Tables for display calibration using ICC profiles?
     Answer
     

Yes, you can load an ICC profile for the primary or secondary monitors, and use a professional publishing application to perform color matching based on information in the ICC profiles.  To use two ICC profiles for separate monitors, you will need attach and calibrate one monitor at a time with a Colorimeter.  You can then load the profile in the Windows Color Control Panel.

Windows XP

http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details...;displaylang=en (http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?familyid=1E33DCA0-7721-43CA-9174-7F8D429FBB9E&displaylang=en)

Windows 7 / Vista
Windows 7 / Vista

   1. Click Start
      Collapse this imageExpand this image
       
      the Start button, and then type Color Management in the Start Search box.
   2. Click Color Management under Programs.
   3. In the Color Management dialog box, click the Devices tab, and then click the display that is experiencing the problem. For example, click Display: Generic PnP Monitor.
   4. Make sure that the Use my settings for this device check box is selected.
   5. In the Profiles Associated with this Device list, addl the profile. To remove a profile, select the profile, and then click Remove.
   6. Click Close.

They say to use a Colorimeter. Does it mean you can't use a spectrometer?
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: Steve Weldon on June 06, 2010, 05:55:09 pm
Quote from: shayaweiss
Steve,

I thank you again for your time and patience! Please do take my word that I sit in front of this problem for a view days (including the whole weekend without interruption trying to read up more), that I phoned and called all the support and assistances I could get, including a week ago an hour long conversation with X-rite tech support and Eizo... It costs me a lot of time, money and fatigue. That's why I am thankful for help like your's, because you definitely do seam do have some answers.

To the point:
*** EIZO monitor. I know that one can NOT perform hardware calibration on these s2233w.


They say to use a Colorimeter. Does it mean you can't use a spectrometer?
Ok then.. there is a start.

Let me say this.. I understand you've spent a lot of time talking to support.. but when they're problem solving and working in a general nature information can take on different context..

I would recommend you make one more call to Eizo and confirm these monitors do not have a hardware LUT.

If this is confirmed then we know this.

1.  You need a video card which can handle two video LUT's.

2.  You can use standard calibration software like that which came with your 1i2..


Now.. if this is all confirmed we can now look at your video card more closely.  If you read carefully the Nvidia text you posted it DOES say you can assign two ICC profiles.  What it DOES NOT say is that the card is cable of assigning them both at the same time.  A fine but important difference.   Your video card LUT is one part of this issue I'm almost positive on.. it will only support one LUT at a time..

Let's assume this is the case.  Now there is the need to find a video card(s) that do support 2 LUT's.   There are several ways to achieve this.  You can simply add another 220 (providing you have the slot on your motherboard), you can replace your existing 220 with  dual head Nvideo card.. or you can buy a ATI card.

I used to use Nvidia for years as their drivers were more refined and less trouble prone than ATI.  However, in the last 18 months ATI drivers have grown to be equal to or better than Nvidia (imo) and their hardware easily is better for our purposes.

Are you a gamer?  If not and your graphic card needs are only concerned with image processing.. then there is no need to spend much money.  A $100 ATI 5400 for instance will work just fine for you.  If you are a gamer then balance your budget vs performance and see where you end up.

Now.. lets say you end up with an ATI card.  This part is important so note it or write it down.  Before removing your Nvidia card use your program manager to completely remove all Nvidia software and driver and reboot the machine to make sure its running the stock windows driver.  Once you confirm this.. then power down your machine and replace the cards, boot it up, install the ATI software/drivers, and then reboot again.  Now you're ready to profile.


The steps above are exactly what I would do.  At this stage you want to get this working and stop wasting your time.. and with something like this.. carefully following the steps will get you there faster than trying to take shortcuts..  Trust me on this one.. Follow the above steps and then post in this thread and tell us where you're at.
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: Steve Weldon on June 06, 2010, 05:55:57 pm
Quote from: shayaweiss
They say to use a Colorimeter. Does it mean you can't use a spectrometer?
A colorimeter will work fine.
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: ErikKaffehr on June 06, 2010, 07:11:43 pm
Hi,

I think "shayaweiss" has a spectro, is that OK?


Erik


Quote from: Steve Weldon
A colorimeter will work fine.
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: shayaweiss on June 06, 2010, 07:18:59 pm
Steve,

I tried to find a card following your advise, and found one, actually two, in my computer store next door. They have two cards for the same price,

one with a HD5450 (it's a ATI Radeon form what I understand)
 # I/O Output: DL-DVI-I,HDMI,VGA
 # Core clock: 650MHz
 # Memory Clock: 1600MHz Effective
 # 1024MB / 64-bit DDR3 memory interface
 # PCI-E x16 (PCI-E 2.1) interface
 # Single slot passive heatsink
 # Software CrossFire
 # Board Dimension: 168mm(W) x 72.87mm(H) x25(D)mm

and one with Chipset NVIDIA GeForce 9500GT (GV-N95TOC-1GH)
 # Chipset NVIDIA GeForce 9500GT
 # Memory 1GB
 # Memory Bus 128 bit
 # Memory Type GDDR2
 # Card dimension ATX
 # Bus Type PCI-E 2.0
 # Bus Speed x16
 # D-SUB Y (By Adapter)
 # TV-OUT Yes
 # DVI Port Y (DVI-I)
 # Multi View Yes

P.S.:
Quote from: Steve Weldon
Are you a gamer?
Not at all, sorry.
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: shayaweiss on June 06, 2010, 07:23:53 pm
Quote from: ErikKaffehr
Hi,

I think "shayaweiss" has a spectro, is that OK?


Erik
Erik,

No, I do only have a simple eye-one Display 2, which is a colorimeter, and unfortunately not a spectrometer. I was just wondering if, according to Nvidia, a i1Pro would not work?!

Shaya
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: ErikKaffehr on June 06, 2010, 11:35:42 pm
Shaya,

I don't know. The way things are, there is some software coming with your colorimeter/spectro. If you want to use other software you need to check what colorimeters are supported. According to Karl Lang (a real guru) colorimeters with proper software may be the preferable option.

Best regards
Erik


Quote from: shayaweiss
Erik,

No, I do only have a simple eye-one Display 2, which is a colorimeter, and unfortunately not a spectrometer. I was just wondering if, according to Nvidia, a i1Pro would not work?!

Shaya
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: shayaweiss on June 07, 2010, 12:39:43 am
Erik,

Quote from: ErikKaffehr
According to Karl Lang (a real guru) colorimeters with proper software may be the preferable option.

which software? I downloaded Quato yesterday. Looks good, but without paying, there is no way to tell whether it actually works.

P.S.: Also, the more I look at my two Eizos, the more I want to get rid of them! Why? Not because of the tint, which, with Steve Weldon's advises and help, I am confident, will go away. But because, I quote from Eizo's Website "fluctuations in brightness and chroma on different parts of the screen". They say that these "are a common trait of LCD monitors". I did not buy common monitors for that price. Maybe I should give them both back, and get one CG222W for the money. They are not common, according to Eizo. I could use one of my other monitors, like my cheap LG monitor, as second monitor. Is the CG222W really a better screen? It uses hardware calibration. The panel though, is the same VA style according to the Eizo documentation...
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: Steve Weldon on June 07, 2010, 07:13:05 am
Quote from: shayaweiss
Steve,

I tried to find a card following your advise, and found one, actually two, in my computer store next door. They have two cards for the same price,

one with a HD5450 (it's a ATI Radeon form what I understand)
Of the cards you listed the ATI imo is far preferable.  The 5450 is an inexpensive passive cooled card that should easily run two monitors.   They say three but I've only tested this type with two.  

There is one caveat here.. the conventional wisdom is that if you don't play games you won't benefit from a faster more powerful graphics card.. say a ATI 5770..  

It is true that gamers benefit from more powerful and faster video cards.  However, pages still need to be rendered and with CS4/5 and possibly LR in the future benefiting from OpenGL and more video memory.. it is my experience that even for images you will benefit from a more powerful card.

However, there is a very real point of marginal returns.  Personally I drew the line at ATI 5770 cards which are a sort of sweet spot in their lineup.  For $149 USD's it's quite a lot of card.  I don't think I'm using all it's power for imaging, but I know it's using more than a 5450 and it's only a $50 difference.. so consider this.

Also consider, the ATI cards are sold by many manufacturers in both single and dual slot configs.. A dual slot card will have two DVI ports, 1 hdmi, and 1 displayport.  If I had two DVI monitors I would want a dual slot card and to not use an adapter.

Hold off on pre-judging the Eizo's.  A proper video card, quality cabling, and correct profiling can totally change the look of a monitor.  You'll need to do all these things for a dual monitor setup regardless.. so lets get this done first and THEN tell us how you like the Eizo's..
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: shayaweiss on June 07, 2010, 12:03:38 pm
Quote from: Steve Weldon
Personally I drew the line at ATI 5770 cards

OK, me too. I got the card, and I am about to download and install the latest drivers for Windows 7 64bit.
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: shayaweiss on June 07, 2010, 12:40:14 pm
Quote from: shayaweiss
OK, me too. I got the card, and I am about to download and install the latest drivers for Windows 7 64bit.

Done. I am going to calibrate now. Unfortunately, there is one thing though I can already tell you.  The two monitors still have the terrible "fluctuations in brightness and chroma on different parts of the screen".
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: Steve Weldon on June 07, 2010, 01:02:24 pm
Quote from: shayaweiss
Done. I am going to calibrate now. Unfortunately, there is one thing though I can already tell you.  The two monitors still have the terrible "fluctuations in brightness and chroma on different parts of the screen".
You followed the directions for removing the old drivers first ?

There are two issues here.

1.  Being able to apply a profile to two monitors at the same time.

2.  Whether or not your current monitors are of the quality you want.


Lets take care of 1 first.  Then we'll go from there.

BTW -  Did you get the version of the 5770 that allowed 2 DVI ports so your adapter is now out of the picture?  Eliminating this sort of thing (adapters) is much desirable.
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: shayaweiss on June 07, 2010, 01:39:30 pm
Steve,

Quote from: Steve Weldon
You followed the directions for removing the old drivers first ?

I completed the procedure
Quote from: Steve Weldon
Before removing your Nvidia card use your program manager to completely remove all Nvidia software and driver and reboot the machine to make sure its running the stock windows driver. Once you confirm this.. then power down your machine and replace the cards, boot it up, install the ATI software/drivers, and then reboot again. Now you're ready to profile.
and maybe I over did it, because I already profiled unsuccessfully. Should I delete those profiles?

Quote from: Steve Weldon
There are two issues here.
1.  Being able to apply a profile to two monitors at the same time.

2.  Whether or not your current monitors are of the quality you want.


Lets take care of 1 first.  Then we'll go from there.

BTW -  Did you get the version of the 5770 that allowed 2 DVI ports so your adapter is now out of the picture?  Eliminating this sort of thing (adapters) is much desirable.

Yes, I got the version with the two DVI ports. The card is a ATI Radeon HD5770:
# I/O Output: Dual DL-DVI-I+DP+HDMI, Triple Display Support
# Core Clock: 850 MHz
# Memory Clock: Effective 4800 MHz
# PCI Express 2.1 x16 bus interface
# 1024MB /128bit GDDR5 memory interface
# Dual Slot Cooler with Auto Fan Control
# On-board HDMI, supports HDMI 1.3 with High Bitrate Audio
# On-board DisplayPort
# Maximum Board Power: 108 Watt; Idle Board Power: 18 Watt

Again, thank you for helping me with this.
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: shayaweiss on June 07, 2010, 01:51:54 pm
Steve,

Do you use the overdrive off the video card?
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: Steve Weldon on June 07, 2010, 04:39:03 pm
Quote from: shayaweiss
Steve,



I completed the procedure

and maybe I over did it, because I already profiled unsuccessfully. Should I delete those profiles?
Go back to where I explained how to remove the old drivers and make sure you did this.. and then where I explained how to remove the old profiles and do that too.  ONLY remove the profiles you made.. not everything in the directory.

Pay particular attention to where I said the color manager (windows color manager) should be totally empty when you start this procedure.

It is important you start with a fresh driver set, no profiles, and nothing in color manager.. and that you've freshed rebooted before you start installing these items.

Once fresh and ready install the drivers (forgot about Catyalst and the other stuff for now.. they're not needed.  Just install the base driver package.  That's it.   Reboot.

Clean the color manager.  Reboot.

Profile your monitors.  Reboot.

By reboot.. I mean a power off reboot.. not a reset.  There is a difference and the difference isn't always consistent.

I'm assuming you're using Eye One Match 3 with your 1i2?  if not, go to xrite.com and download it and use it.  

And as I said.. forgot the extras that ATI supplies in their deluxe color package.  All you want for now are the base drivers.  Once we get this working right then you can go back (if you want) and installl the extra stuff.

Take your time... don't rush.. one thing at a time.

It's 0330am here in Bangkok and I'm going to bed because I have a full day workshop to teach in the morning.  I'll check back on the forum in about 18 hours and see how you're doing.  

Good luck.
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: Steve Weldon on June 07, 2010, 04:41:54 pm
Quote from: shayaweiss
Steve,

Do you use the overdrive off the video card?
Yes I do.  But for now lets now.  We don't want to add anything that may cause issues at this point.

Once you're up on two monitors and happy.. then you can install the extra software, use the overdrive overclocking profiles, etc.. one thing at a time.. so if things stop working right you'll know what caused it.

Remember to unplug from the internet and turn off your virus software when doing the profiles..
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: shayaweiss on June 08, 2010, 01:16:53 am
Steve,

I followed step by step your procedure, but there is not much, if any change. Let's say everything looks and reacts exactly like with the Nvidia card. I did try again and again, every thinkable configuration, and procedure variation. In the end, I even installed a trial version of the latest BasicColor Display. Doesn't help either.  As mentioned above, for Quato's iColor display there is no trail version, that I could have run. Also I do not own any other measuring device but the i1 Display 2.
Both screens still have their magenta/pinkish tint. One very slight, the other one very strong, but not as strong as the third one, which the distributor already agreed to take back, because of an "uniformity problem". Not one of these last three Eizo s2233w is uniform in color or brightness. All this is not only visible on a white background, but also on my middle gray desktop and even easily noticeable, and disturbing, while editing images.
BTW not only the place where I bought these wide-gamut Eizo FlexScan Monitors, but also the Eizo Website, advertises them as suitable for photography! I don't understand...
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: Czornyj on June 08, 2010, 03:45:59 am
Quote from: shayaweiss
As mentioned above, for Quato's iColor display there is no trail version, that I could have run. Also I do not own any other measuring device but the i1 Display 2.
Both screens still have their magenta/pinkish tint. One very slight, the other one very strong, but not as strong as the third one, which the distributor already agreed to take back, because of an "uniformity problem". Not one of these last three Eizo s2233w is uniform in color or brightness. All this is not only visible on a white background, but also on my middle gray desktop and even easily noticeable, and disturbing, while editing images.
BTW not only the place where I bought these wide-gamut Eizo FlexScan Monitors, but also the Eizo Website, advertises them as suitable for photography! I don't understand...

There's an iColor display trial - you need to register and download a 10 day licence file.

There's a problem with mura on wide gamut CCFL and RGB LED displays, so all displays for color critical applications (such as Eizo CG, NEC PA, or Quato IntelliProof series) have electronic uniformity compensation. I'd also wouldn't recommend a S-PVA type display for dual monitor work, it slightly changes colors if you don't look straight at it.
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: Steve Weldon on June 08, 2010, 05:04:45 am
Quote from: shayaweiss
Steve,

I followed step by step your procedure, but there is not much, if any change. Let's say everything looks and reacts exactly like with the Nvidia card. I did try again and again, every thinkable configuration, and procedure variation. In the end, I even installed a trial version of the latest BasicColor D
Shaya -

FULL STOP..   I need you to be very patient and very methodical.. Every time you install new stuff and try new things you're 'polluting' your install and those new things you tried become potential issues.  Lets just do one thing at a time okay?

1.  I've read the manual for your monitor and done some simple google searches on profiling a Flexscan.. there's nothing like taking advantage of someone else's knowledge.

2.  When we first started this you mentioned a 10 bit LUT and I asked you to call Eizo and confirm if your system had hardware LUT's and DDC and if so what software they recommend for calibration.. and you said they didn't.  I'm still not sure about the hardware LUT but it does appear (page 26 of your manual) you have DDC which is a communication link between your PC and your monitor via the DVI port (providing you are using the DVI cables that came with your monitors so the link can be activated (see how your HDMI-DVI adapter was at least part of the problem?)) and is typically used for screen adjustment and the transfer of LUT tables.   I don't know and can't tell without talking to Eizo if you indeed have hardware LUT's though the listing of a 10 bit LUT and DDC both point in that direction.

What this means is you can't profile this monitor like you would an average monitor without DDC and hardware LUT's.  To do is effectively adding a layer of color adjustment on top of another layer of adjustment... and the results are bound to be one screwed up looking screen.. which is what you're describing.

3.  All this told me that at a minimum there is a very specific piece of software to be used to communicate with your monitor..   and it turns out there is.

4.  A brief Google turned up this gem of knowledge:  http://www.imagescience.com.au/kb/question...ne+Display+2%29 (http://www.imagescience.com.au/kb/questions/60/How+to+Calibrate+an+Eizo+Flexscan+Monitor+%28with+an+Eye+One+Display+2%29) which is basically the exact instructions on how to color profile a Flexscan using the provided Eizo software AND the 1i2 hardware puck you already have.   Why the hell Eizo didn't lead you down this same path boggles the mind.. except like I said before, most of these techs who answer the phone are people with no experience on the subject and ten minutes of training on how to follow an interactive computer troubleshooting procedure.. sad really..

5.  Below are my recommendations.  It would be helpful if you followed them exactly AND THEN STOP AND DO NOTHING ELSE UNTIL WE CHAT AGAIN..

     a.  Clean your system of all color profiling software, color profiles, and video card extras other than the base video card drivers.

      b.  Reboot, double check your clean.

      c.  Turn off the second monitor and lets just calibrate one monitor and make it look right for now.

      d.  Follow the instructions exactly that are in the link I provided above.

      e.  If the monitor ends up looking correct.. go ahead and do the second one.  IF NOT, STOP AND DON'T DO ANYTHING MORE.

6.   Keep in mind that this is a wide gamut monitor.  Wide gamut monitors will show very saturated reds/pinks when viewing mismatched profiles.  If you work primarily in sRGB then you should be using the sRGB mode of your monitor and profiling it as such.  All your files should then have the sRGB color space tagged.  

7.  Explain exactly what you mean by "pink uneven cast."  is this when viewing an image, or if you put a white box up across the screen?  

8.  Slow down.. one step at a time..  Eizo is a very good company and I seriously doubt they're putting out monitors with severe color casts.. especially that you would get three of them.  These are not crap monitors.. even their cheap stuff are very good compared to the average.  The chances are something isn't being done right..


Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: shayaweiss on June 08, 2010, 07:38:51 am
Steve,

I did as you said, and had to stop after the first monitor calibration, because of the two known issues. The magenta tint is much more pronounced on the right side than on the left side of the screen, where it even seems to have a slight greenish cast. A view people did already have a look at it and confirmed the reality of these color problems. One of the three monitors has already been taken back because of that reason.

The software, called the Screen Manager, is nothing else but a GUI for the Monitor OSD. Has the same functions and does the same thing. Also since the new video card, it does not work properly anymore. All possible color adjustments are now grayed out. I tried to uninstall and reinstall, but that won't help. So I use the OSD of the monitor. (Yes, I use the DVI connection and also the monitors are connected via USB)

Except this last point, the procedure described in the document you referred me to, is a standard procedure, and is what I always did till now. I none the less followed it from there scrupulously.

Regarding sRGB, my whole work flow is in ProPhotoRGB, from Raw to Print, and I get stunning results! I don't work for the Web.

The pink uneven cast, is, as I said, not only visible on a white box up across the screen, but also on my middle gray desktop and even easily noticeable and disturbing, while editing images. I am mainly doing portraiture in studio, so I have peoples faces half pinkish and half greenish. As is, the monitors are useless to me regarding color. The only workaround is, as I know that my colors are spot on, not to edit the colors in anyway, except when soft proofing, but that's something else.
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: shayaweiss on June 08, 2010, 12:45:09 pm
Quote from: Czornyj
There's an iColor display trial - you need to register and download a 10 day licence file.

There's a problem with mura on wide gamut CCFL and RGB LED displays, so all displays for color critical applications (such as Eizo CG, NEC PA, or Quato IntelliProof series) have electronic uniformity compensation. I'd also wouldn't recommend a S-PVA type display for dual monitor work, it slightly changes colors if you don't look straight at it.

Czornyj,

Actualy, you have to write them, in order to register for a a trial. I did it and promptly got a trial license!
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: shayaweiss on June 08, 2010, 12:58:09 pm
There is maybe one point that I didn't stress enough. To my eyes, the tint always appears far stronger after the newly build eye-one display 2 profile has been applied.
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: Steve Weldon on June 08, 2010, 04:22:40 pm
Quote from: shayaweiss
There is maybe one point that I didn't stress enough. To my eyes, the tint always appears far stronger after the newly build eye-one display 2 profile has been applied.
Ok.. so regardless of 1 vs. 2 monitors.. you're not even getting one profiled correctly?

I was under the impression you were having trouble getting two monitors to match and I'm fairly confident you're now set up to do this.  For grins I hooked up two standard (non-DDC) monitors to a x64 Win7 box with a 5770 card and they indeed profile properly and look the same side by side.  

Yes, the link I gave lists the standard routine but it emphasizes using the custom mode.  I'm sure you did this?

If you're monitors are as bad as you say they are you need to get Eizo involved.  It just seems so odd you're get 3 monitors from a quality company that have these same issues to varying degrees if I understand you right.

Now it's time to isolate hardware.  Have you hooked these up to another computer, a laptop maybe, and verified the tint/cast is independent of the machine?  That would be the next step.. connect it to any other computer and see if that tint/cast is there and if you can properly profile just a single monitor.

One thing.. when you say that after the 1i2 calibration routine the tint/cast is much stronger.. this really sounds like a profile being applied on top of another profile.  And you want the ATI software choices to be grayed out.. if you're setting colors/setting there AND using the profile.. then this would be your problem.. or at least 'a' problem.

I suppose it's also possible your 1i2 is out of whack.  Test it on another machine and see if it's currently working as it should.

Its possible 3 high-quality monitors all have the same issue.. but it just seems so unlikely.. especially if they're all from different ages/batches.  Try another monitor on your machine, try the Eizo's on a different machine, and try your 1i2 puck on another machine.  Lets fine out what's going on.. you've got me hooked now..
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: shayaweiss on June 08, 2010, 05:11:42 pm
Steve,

I have big news !

Yes, not one monitor seemed (past tense !) correct. And yes, I do use the costume mode.

I did already hook up the monitors to other computers and laptops. The problem persisted, BUT I always used the same i1D2 with same x-rite software ColorMatch3. Also, when I edit the profiles white point by eyeballing, I can make the monitors match (more or less)!

So I tried SOMETHING NEW which was already suggested by Czornyj and Erik Kaffehr. I tried other calibration software, like BasicColor Display 4 and Quato's iColor Display 3.

First, I gave a serious try for iColor Display 3. Guess what! The monitors never where that close before (It's almost perfect)! The tint is almost completely gone! Even the uniformity on each screen greatly improved (it's still not good enough though).

WOW

iColor has an Wide Gamut S-PVA correction tool. Maybe that helped? The closest match to my paper white (Epson's Exhibition Fiber Paper) in a JUST ColorMaster I got with a target of 5800K, Gamma L*, Luminance maximum (which is the very high 100% factory setting), Black evidently set to minimum. It also profiled nicely with a very nice and delicate curve.
Before I started I reset my RGB values on the Monitor. With this kind of Eizo it seems to best work with foctory settings for luminance and contrast. I always have to double check that the RGB presets K-temperature is set to OFF. The gamme set to 2.2 produces straighter curves. Saturation and Hue are evidently set to 0. The calibration is than simply done with the RGB gain option.

Netx I want to see if BasicColor Display 4 does as good or better. But in a first run, though the software appears of a better and more solid make, the results where not as good. But let's see with identical settings for the calibration for the same target white point.
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: Czornyj on June 08, 2010, 05:45:06 pm
Good news!

Don't use L* TRC as your calibration target it's not good for S-series, it's factory calibrated to gamma 2,2

I'd also give another try to OSD RGB gain control - just try to achieve the highiest possible RGB % values, usually I get something like R100%, G91%, B94%, but there's no rule.
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: shayaweiss on June 08, 2010, 05:53:48 pm
Quote from: Czornyj
Good news!
indeed!

Quote
Don't use L* TRC as your calibration target it's not good for S-series, it's factory calibrated to gamma 2,2
You are right and it makes sens. I'll try that.

Quote
I'd also give another try to OSD RGB gain control - just try to achieve the highiest possible RGB % values, usually I get something like R100%, G91%, B94%, but there's no rule.

That's what I did and ment by saying that "the calibration is than simply done with the RGB gain option".

Czerny do you maybe know how much that piece of software costs without a puck? I can't find any price.

Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: Czornyj on June 08, 2010, 06:03:05 pm
Quote from: shayaweiss
That's what I did and ment by saying that "the calibration is than simply done with the RGB gain option".

Czerny do you maybe know how much that piece of software costs without a puck? I can't find any price.

Excuse me, I must have misunderstood something

The software costs about 110-120euro:
http://www.idealo.de/preisvergleich/Offers...play-quato.html (http://www.idealo.de/preisvergleich/OffersOfProduct/1950406_-icolor-display-quato.html)
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: shayaweiss on June 08, 2010, 06:21:54 pm
Quote from: Czornyj
The software costs about 110-120euro:
http://www.idealo.de/preisvergleich/Offers...play-quato.html (http://www.idealo.de/preisvergleich/OffersOfProduct/1950406_-icolor-display-quato.html)

They all deliver only inside the EU, where I do not live. Also I do not need no DVD etc for which I ave to pay astronomic delivery charges. I already downloaded the software, so I just need a Licence.

Also the software does not allow for hardware calibration (except for Quato's own monitors). basICColor display 4 can do hardware calibration. But I now tried basICColor again and it is not able to get rid of the color cast as does Quato's software! So for one of the problems with my FlexScan Eizo's, iColor display 3 is for the moment the only option to make it better, not resolve it. As to why all this occurs? Maybe anyone can enlighten me?!
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: Czornyj on June 09, 2010, 03:14:29 am
Quote from: shayaweiss
They all deliver only inside the EU, where I do not live. Also I do not need no DVD etc for which I ave to pay astronomic delivery charges. I already downloaded the software, so I just need a Licence.

Also the software does not allow for hardware calibration (except for Quato's own monitors). basICColor display 4 can do hardware calibration. But I now tried basICColor again and it is not able to get rid of the color cast as does Quato's software! So for one of the problems with my FlexScan Eizo's, iColor display 3 is for the moment the only option to make it better, not resolve it. As to why all this occurs? Maybe anyone can enlighten me?!

basICColor display allows for hardware calibration only if you have european NEC Spectraview, or Eizo CG series display. Try to contact Quato dealer: http://www.quato.de/english/wheretobuy.php (http://www.quato.de/english/wheretobuy.php)

The problem is, that the pseudo-XYZ colorimeter tries to mimic the XYZ function of spectral sensitivity of human eye, but it's not perfect, so you need a correction matrix for certain colorimeter, and the spectra of the display. The i1match software has only generic correction matrixes for CRT and LCD spectra, but it doesn't work well with the wide gamut CCFL, LED and RGB LED backlight that have different spectral characteristic. basICColor aka Spectraview profiler, iColor display and Eizo Color Navigator have these correction matrixes for popular colorimeters and NEC Spectraview/Eizo CG/Quato Intelli Proof series, but only iColor display has also some generic correction matrixes for generic wide gamut S-IPS/S-PVA displays, that can be applied manually. The other solution is to use Spectrophotometer like ColorMunki or Eye One Pro rather than pseudo-XYZ colorimeter - problem is that Eye One Pro is expansive, and Color Munki has limited display calibration functions (and it's also not that cheap, either)...
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: John R Smith on June 09, 2010, 03:39:19 am
I have been following this topic with interest.

Something I really do not understand here, is how changing the calibration software could possibly make any difference to a monitor which was displaying an uneven hue shift from one side of the screen to the other (magenta to green in this case). I accept that it did, but you would have thought that this would have to be a hardware problem with the panel itself.

John
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: Czornyj on June 09, 2010, 03:48:54 am
Quote from: John R Smith
I have been following this topic with interest.

Something I really do not understand here, is how changing the calibration software could possibly make any difference to a monitor which was displaying an uneven hue shift from one side of the screen to the other (magenta to green in this case). I accept that it did, but you would have thought that this would have to be a hardware problem with the panel itself.

John

More or less, mura is always a problem on wide gamut CCFL/RGB LED display. It just became less visible after calibration.
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: shayaweiss on June 09, 2010, 05:57:52 am
Quote from: John R Smith
Something I really do not understand here, is how changing the calibration software could possibly make any difference to a monitor which was displaying an uneven hue shift from one side of the screen to the other (magenta to green in this case). I accept that it did, but you would have thought that this would have to be a hardware problem with the panel itself.

John,

There are two, I believe distinct, problems I have with the three EIZO FlexScan 2233W I had till now. One of them might be caused by x-rite's i1 Display 2 and/or the display calibration software eye-one Match3 that comes with this colorimeter puck:

[blockquote]- A strong overall magenta cast, which varies in intensity from screen to screen, appears after profiling with my i1D2 used with Match3. I can greatly diminish this hue shift through visual calibration or, albeit to a lesser degree, by using Quato's iColor display 3. BasICColor display 4 couldn't help me here. So, as suggested by Czornyj, this might be an issue with the i1d2/Match3 combination and wide-gamut monitors.

- This magenta cast itself is uneven. There are more greenish zones of fluctuations in brightness and chroma on different parts of the screen. Like Czornyj said, through calibration it is possible to slightly attenuate this very annoying uneven hue shift. I noticed that, when I set my target white point close to, or at, the native color temperature the fluctuations are maybe a little bit less intrusive.[/blockquote]

I want to add that these issues, with a monitor advertised as suitable for photographic work, evidently do cause me real life problems when doing simple image editing and naturally when soft proofing.
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: John R Smith on June 09, 2010, 07:56:43 am
Colour Confidence, a leading monitor supplier in the UK, only rates the Eizo 2233W at two stars (out of five). They comment -

"2 Star LCD monitors

The LCD monitors we have selected for our 2 Star range include models from leading manufacturers such as Apple and Eizo. These value for money LCD displays offer good build quality and overall performance; however, they are not specifically designed for colour work, and do not have the colour accuracy features of our 4 and 5 Star monitors."

Other monitors at a slightly higher price, such as the Eizo ColorEdge CG222W (Product Code: EIZO070) are rated at four stars by this site.

John
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: Steve Weldon on June 09, 2010, 09:14:21 am
Quote from: shayaweiss
Steve,

I have big news !
This is great news.. but I must admit I'm more intrigued than ever.  Despite Czornyj's explanation of using a colorimeter, specifically 1i2 and Imatch3, this combination is not only working correctly on tons of wide-gamut monitors.. but are in fact recommended and listed as compatible with wide-gamut monitors.  Yes, there might be some minor differences at the fringes.. but not enough to using anything else if it costs you even a single dollar.

And in fact.. I'm using the 1i2 puck with my wide-gamut (NEC LCD2690uxi2's) monitors with excellent results.

So no, I don't feel this is a general mismatch of hardware and software.. even as you say you're still using the 1i2 hardware.. just different software.

So the real question is.. what is it about this software that's causing am incompatibility with Eizo Flexscan monitors?  My guess is nothing.

My guess is something else in your system.. and I say that because many other people are using 1i2 hardware pucks and Imatch3 software with their Flexscans.

I'd like to find out what it is.. as much software as you've loaded, deleted, loaded, deleted, etc.. something was left behind.  There's a chance.. not sure how much of one.. that whatever was left behind and is causing issues with Imatch3 and not the other.. will come back to bite you.  When and how deep the bite who knows..

Look at it this way.  There are many Eizo Flexcan's using 1i2 pucks and Imatch3 software to properly profile them.  Why won't yours?  What have you ruled out..

1.  The monitors appear to be ruled out.

2.  Win7 is ruled out.

3.  The 1i2 is ruled out.

4.  This leaves.. the Win7 build and remnants left over from previous installs.. your copy/version of Imatch3 (I'm assuming you're using the Win7 version?  It's the latest update), or procedure/technique.


I'm curious..   But I totally understand you'd like to take a break from this and just process images for a while..

If it were me.. I'd wipe the system and install Win7 from scratch..  The most currents drivers..  install a basic suite of imaging software.. just CS5 for instance.. and then I'd profile it again..  If it works with the minimum.. I'd install one piece of software at a time, reboot, check.. and continue till the build is finished..
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: Czornyj on June 09, 2010, 02:31:42 pm
Steve, on the surface of my 3090WQXi:
- in the left corner there's a mighty DTP94B colorimeter - the undefeated "master of darkness", considered as the best popular colorimeter of all times (at least as better than i1d2)
- in the right corner there's an i1pro spectro I had used to calibrate the display
(http://members.chello.pl/m.kaluza/lie.jpg)

Comparing chromatic coordinates of both measurements, there's over 10dE(76) of a difference.

Apart from the above mentioned, the inter instrumental agreement between i1d2 is not impressive, and - according to very reliable information - there might be even 18dE difference between wtpt measurements from various i1d2 units. All in all - I wouldn't risk to say it's an instrument you can unconditionally rely on...
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: Mark Paulson on June 09, 2010, 03:19:31 pm
Just my 2 cents. I have both and recently switched to the Spyder III at the behest of Scott Martin. I use ColorEyes and with a CG222W all woork fine.
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: Steve Weldon on June 09, 2010, 04:11:35 pm
Quote from: Czornyj
Steve, on the surface of my 3090WQXi:

Apart from the above mentioned, the inter instrumental agreement between i1d2 is not impressive, and - according to very reliable information - there might be even 18dE difference between wtpt measurements from various i1d2 units. All in all - I wouldn't risk to say it's an instrument you can unconditionally rely on...
Its pretty hard to make out from that picture.. but your 1i2 looks different than mine.  Perhaps it's an older version?  The one I have looks remarkably similar/same to the SVII puck NEC sells.. and they recommend the 1i2 for their wide gamut monitors.

Have you measured more than one sample?  Can you be more specific about what you've heard?

I don't use any piece of software or hardware "unconditionally", but I have relied on my 1i2 for several years now and it's done a fine job.. and there are tons of them out there with happy customers.  I'm probably less likely to rely on a single persons experience or internet rumors.

Besides, this is already a moot point.  If his 1i2 is working well enough with one piece of software to give him an acceptable profile then its working well enough.  If he wants to split hairs as he gets more into this then I'd encourage him to borrow different hardware devices and see just how much difference there really is.

Personally I was ready to buy either the SVII hardware puck or the Colormunki to use with my new wide gamut displays.. but NEC told me the 1i2 was nearly identical to theirs and while the Colormunki has more functions, it won't give me a more accurate profile.  Is NEC right?  I dunno.. but my guess is there's a lot more operator errors and operator induced malfunctions.. than ones of hardware..
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: Czornyj on June 09, 2010, 04:35:33 pm
It's not i1d2, it's only my DTP94 (that's even better than i1). NEC US makes his custom matted colorimeters for a good reason. I'm not trying to split hairs, I'm only trying to explain what could be the reason of the problem.

My picture is only an example, and i1pro cannot be considered as a serious source of reference measurement values, but here's the result of a serious scientific test:
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....mp;#entry324899 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=39209&st=0&p=324899&#entry324899)
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: shayaweiss on June 11, 2010, 06:54:36 am
Quote from: John R Smith
Colour Confidence, a leading monitor supplier in the UK, only rates the Eizo 2233W at two stars (out of five). They comment -

"2 Star LCD monitors

The LCD monitors we have selected for our 2 Star range include models from leading manufacturers such as Apple and Eizo. These value for money LCD displays offer good build quality and overall performance; however, they are not specifically designed for colour work, and do not have the colour accuracy features of our 4 and 5 Star monitors."

Other monitors at a slightly higher price, such as the Eizo ColorEdge CG222W (Product Code: EIZO070) are rated at four stars by this site.

John

John,

These are indeed very useful ratings. My photographic supplier advertised them as suitable for photographic work, but now that I had a closer look at Eizo's Website, I saw that they do also state that it is suitable for that purpose, but only in a "prosumer" or amateur setting, though I cannot understand what they should do with it.

Unfortunately, Eizo does have a distributor here who sells their screens double the price (yes!) from Europe, even for models that have already been replaced, like the CD222W. That's why, when I paid for the Flexscan s2233w, I paid like you would pay for the ColorEdge CD222w. I thought I'll try to safe some money. It was a big mistake.
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: shayaweiss on June 11, 2010, 07:17:01 am
Steve,

Quote from: Steve Weldon
This is great news.. but I must admit I'm more intrigued than ever.  Despite Czornyj's explanation of using a colorimeter, specifically 1i2 and Imatch3, this combination is not only working correctly on tons of wide-gamut monitors.. but are in fact recommended and listed as compatible with wide-gamut monitors.

I know, thats why I bought it. But if I learned one thing, than it is that, just because everybody does this or buys that etc., it's NOT good, doesn't make it good, and doesn't mean it's good.

Quote
The monitors appear to be ruled out.

No, why? The one that did already go back to the distributor had an magenta cast even in their place. Far away from my machines.

Quote
Win7 is ruled out.

why?

Quote
The 1i2 is ruled out.
I don't think so. I think that Czornyj has a very good, and well documented, point.


Quote
This leaves.. the Win7 build and remnants left over from previous installs.. your copy/version of Imatch3 (I'm assuming you're using the Win7 version?  It's the latest update), or procedure/technique.

I'm curious..   But I totally understand you'd like to take a break from this and just process images for a while..

If it were me.. I'd wipe the system and install Win7 from scratch..  The most currents drivers..  install a basic suite of imaging software.. just CS5 for instance.. and then I'd profile it again..  If it works with the minimum.. I'd install one piece of software at a time, reboot, check.. and continue till the build is finished..

I hear your last point, and in an ideal world, to rule this point out, I would do it, but in practical terms, I have to work. Also this particular machine is brand new and has all the latest drivers and updates. Everything is running smoothly and has been checked and double checked with all kinds of pieces of software and technicians on site and remotely.
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: Czornyj on June 11, 2010, 07:20:01 am
Quote from: shayaweiss
John,

These are indeed very useful ratings. My photographic supplier advertised them as suitable for photographic work, but now that I had a closer look at Eizo's Website, I saw that they do also state that it is suitable for that purpose, but only in a "prosumer" or amateur setting, though I cannot understand what they should do with it.

Unfortunately, Eizo does have a distributor here who sells their screens double the price (yes!) from Europe, even for models that have already been replaced, like the CD222W. That's why, when I paid for the Flexscan s2233w, I paid like you would pay for the ColorEdge CD222w. I thought I'll try to safe some money. It was a big mistake.

Take a look at NEC displays - the new PA241W is one of the finest displays I've ever saw, I dare to say it's at least as good as Eizo CG243W (or maybe even better). It's perfectly uniform and linear, and very flexible.
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: shayaweiss on June 11, 2010, 07:30:32 am
Quote from: Czornyj
It's not i1d2, it's only my DTP94 (that's even better than i1). NEC US makes his custom matted colorimeters for a good reason. I'm not trying to split hairs, I'm only trying to explain what could be the reason of the problem.

My picture is only an example, and i1pro cannot be considered as a serious source of reference measurement values, but here's the result of a serious scientific test:
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....mp;#entry324899 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=39209&st=0&p=324899&#entry324899)

I found this document very interesting, Czornyj! I looked it up in the original thread on colorsync http://lists.apple.com/archives/colorsync-...v/msg00175.html (http://lists.apple.com/archives/colorsync-users/2009/Nov/msg00175.html) .
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: John R Smith on June 11, 2010, 09:17:55 am
shaya

Steve has been endlessly patient and has gone beyond the call of duty to help you out with this problem, but personally I think it may have very little to do with the Win 7 setup or the drivers or the graphics card, but probably everything to do with the Eizo panels themselves. You have exposed their weaknesses precisely by setting them up in a dual monitor situation where you can see the inconsistency between samples.

I do know a bit about this, because in a general sense I look after about 35 PCs and ten laptops for our service. In our room there are 6 PCs which have profiled monitors, for which I use a Spyder 2. One of the monitors is an Eizo CG211, which is an absolute peach - with perfectly neutral luminance over the whole panel. The rest are cheap Philips 190s, but they profile just fine - until you try putting two side by side! Then you will see subtle hue shifts which you would never have noticed otherwise. An equally cheap Samsung was a total disaster, with a green cast to the supposedly neutral grays which I could not profile out.

John
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: shayaweiss on June 11, 2010, 10:05:59 am
Quote from: John R Smith
shaya

Steve has been endlessly patient and has gone beyond the call of duty to help you out with this problem, but personally I think it may have very little to do with the Win 7 setup or the drivers or the graphics card, but probably everything to do with the Eizo panels themselves. You have exposed their weaknesses precisely by setting them up in a dual monitor situation where you can see the inconsistency between samples.

I do know a bit about this, because in a general sense I look after about 35 PCs and ten laptops for our service. In our room there are 6 PCs which have profiled monitors, for which I use a Spyder 2. One of the monitors is an Eizo CG211, which is an absolute peach - with perfectly neutral luminance over the whole panel. The rest are cheap Philips 190s, but they profile just fine - until you try putting two side by side! Then you will see subtle hue shifts which you would never have noticed otherwise. An equally cheap Samsung was a total disaster, with a green cast to the supposedly neutral grays which I could not profile out.

John

Steve and John,

Steve, you have indeed been very patient with me and I was so much hoping that we'll work it out. And maybe, as you suggested, we could still try to reinstall my whole system. But as you said, Steve, reality makes that I can't afford to do so.

On one hand, the problems with the panels (that are made by Samsung I heard, right?) also seems to have revealed a weakness in in the i12 and Match3, non? Why should this be due to the monitors? As you said, Steve, in majority of cases this combination might work well, but if there is a problem with the panel, like the magenta cast, than this instrument in combination with that software fails. That's how I understood the situation till now. And maybe somehow there could be some driver or other system related problem that creates or accentuates all this.

The absence of uniformity in brightness and chroma, on the other hand, is certainly not related to any software problem. A calibration with a different software, iColor Display 3, was able make things a little bit better.
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: Steve Weldon on June 12, 2010, 01:03:22 pm
Quote from: shayaweiss
Steve and John,

Steve, you have indeed been very patient with me and I was so much hoping that we'll work it out. And maybe, as you suggested, we could still try to reinstall my whole system. But as you said, Steve, reality makes that I can't afford to do so.

On one hand, the problems with the panels (that are made by Samsung I heard, right?) also seems to have revealed a weakness in in the i12 and Match3, non? Why should this be due to the monitors? As you said, Steve, in majority of cases this combination might work well, but if there is a problem with the panel, like the magenta cast, than this instrument in combination with that software fails. That's how I understood the situation till now. And maybe somehow there could be some driver or other system related problem that creates or accentuates all this.

The absence of uniformity in brightness and chroma, on the other hand, is certainly not related to any software problem. A calibration with a different software, iColor Display 3, was able make things a little bit better.
Like I said, you probably won't find it worth it.  It depends on if your goal is to learn exactly what the problem is.. or just to get your workstation going.  I don't blame you either way.  Myself, I want to understand what's going on because there will always be a 'next time' and with so much work already invested it seems a shame to short change the learning opportunity.

You also don't need to reinstall your entire system.  You can install a copy of Win7 and the necessary drivers on another hard disk or even another partition while keeping your current system intact.

And no.. I don't think you've revealed a weakness in anything at this point.  The best you can do is stick your finger in the wind and guess.  Everything is a guess until you find the actual issue at hand.  What you find might or might not help others.. or yourself.

If you're now properly profiling using the 1i2 and different software.. then it's not the 1i2 causing YOUR issues.. indeed it might have variance as has been described.. but chances are that variance will hold steady across two monitors on the same system and render equal variances from the norm.. but it's rather obvious it's not the hardware causing your particular issue.. because you're using that hardware with different software to good effect.

It's not necessarily the software either.. it could be any number of system issues and left over whatever's from all you're experiments interfering or bugging that Imatch3 software.. but that doesn't make the software bad.  That makes it an operator induced issue.  It could be the software.. we just don't know that with enough confidence to say it is.

And it's not Win7 because others are using Win7 to profile dual monitors and not getting magenta casts.

Without your third monitor to test you can't say it's that either.  A few days ago you thought all three were bad.. just because one was worse than the other doesn't mean it wouldn't correct equally as well if properly calibrated.

So no.. we don't know.  We can guess.. but from my point of view every piece of software and hardware in question is working fine in other peoples systems without pink casts.  I'm leaning towards something in your system, brought on from frequent and haphazard installs and deinstalls, being the real problem.  Every time you uninstall software.. especially drivers.. you leave behind a lot of things you don't realize.

Now here's the question.. Lets say I'm right.. and left behind in your system is a registry setting, file remnant, whatever.. which is causing the problem.. Currently you've bypassed the issue by using a piece of software that accesses different registers, different registry settings, etc.  Fine.  But what else are these issues interfering with?  Print profiles maybe?  CS5?  Who knows..   And if not anything now, what will they interfere with in the future.. and how much more time will you spend figuring out a way around that problem?

It would take less than an hour to set up Win7 and the proper drivers and software on a spare HDD or different partition (I recommend an entire different hard drive.. or at least 'image' your current system drive before proceeding)..  If it works as it should we learned its not certain things.. and I think that would be enough.  Finding the actual remnant or registry setting and what causes it is of less value because it would take a certain sequence of events to duplicate.. knowing what works in the hardware and software department.. is valuable.

Regardless.. I'm really glad you got it going.
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: Steve Weldon on June 12, 2010, 01:20:00 pm
Separate issue along the same topic:

A few months back I ordered (2) NEC LCD2690uxi2's to be used in a dual monitor config.  I've been using dual monitor configs for a decade and have set up at least a few dozen for clients.  A few things I've learned.

1.  If you want a true visual match, side by side, then get two identical monitors of the exact same vintage.

2.  Make sure they're hooded.  Reflected colors from walls/ceilings/table tops (even a colorful binder on the table) can make you perceive colors differently on one monitor and not another.  My table tops are 18% grey (seriously), my walls a neutral white, and what lighting I used is planned and uniform temps.

3.  Use the exact same cables, make sure they don't run parallel to power cables or any other cables.  Issues from this are very rare but they do happen.

4.  If you get a perfect match say at 5000/2/110.. you might not get a match at 6500/2.2/170.. or any other setting.  Monitors perform differently at different whitepoints and luminance values.

5.  You need to train yourself to 'see' to eliminate casts.  What I mean.. is before looking at the white screens for a visual match make sure you've been viewing a neutral color and you shift your eyes back and forth in the same way every time.  How the eye perceives color is greatly influenced by what they perceived immediately before.


There's more.. but these are the bigger issues I've noticed.

With my (2) NEC LCD2690uxi2's I've had a new issue related to number 1 above.  One monitor arrived 30 days before the other.  By the time the second arrived I had about 500 hours on it.  I could get my 1i2 and SVII (software) to profile them exactly.. and the colors looked matched.. but the white screens did not.  They were rendering a different visual whitepoint.  This is common enough for NEC to mention the issue and recommend a 'fix' in their SVII manual.

I was easily able to perform the fix for all color profile types I use, except for the sRGB Emulation.  Why?  Because the only variable NEC allows you to adjust on the sRGB emulation is the lum.. You also can't build (or I couldn't figure out how to build) a sRGB emulation mode that limits the gamut to sRGB like the original sRGB Emulation modes do..

This was driving me nuts.. being an anal type the different visual white point really bothered me.  I'm running the sRGB Emulation profiles at 175 vs. the original unlimited.  And I couldn't fix it.  So.. I marked a day on my calender where I'd be available to make the call to NEC for some help.  Being in Bangkok the time/day differences require some planning.

Between the time I was having the problem, and he time I planned (4 days) my second monitor started matching the first more and more without any change in calibration.  At first I thought my eyes were playing tricks on me as the change was extremely gradual.  Now.. as the monitor has barely 100 hours on it the change is evident and the monitors almost perfectly match.  At this rate in another few days they will match perfectly.

This tells me these monitors 'break in' to an extent.. or more likely the supporting electronics and CCFL's do.. and that number 1 above is more critical than I originally thought.

With all that said.. I'm very happy with my new monitors.
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: John R Smith on June 12, 2010, 02:09:24 pm
Steve

Apparently Eizo monitors are also noted for having a "break-in" period. I noticed this with our CG211, when I first profiled it, it was spot-on for neutral grays but after a few weeks it had drifted.

Perhaps Shaya might try running a utility like CClean to tidy up the Win 7 Registry?

John
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: Steve Weldon on June 12, 2010, 02:32:04 pm
Quote from: John R Smith
Steve

Apparently Eizo monitors are also noted for having a "break-in" period. I noticed this with our CG211, when I first profiled it, it was spot-on for neutral grays but after a few weeks it had drifted.

Perhaps Shaya might try running a utility like CClean to tidy up the Win 7 Registry?

John
John -

I would guess all monitors/electronics change values slightly as they 'break-in' or age.. and short of special self calibrating circuitry they always will.  This is most likely the main reason most companies recommend a fresh calibration every 2-4 weeks.  My surprise comes from how quickly in their lifespan these particular monitors demonstrated a difference.  It also makes me worry about getting a replacement monitor under warranty repair if the need should ever arise.  I'd also guess that once I get 1000+ hours on these they'll perfectly match and their aging/degradation will stay linear in nature.

Running dual monitors does present some challenges..

Registry cleaners.  Most only remove orphans and really obvious conflicts.  Orphans don't affect the system other than occupying a bit of memory.. and I doubt this issue would show up as an obvious conflict.. but I'm often wrong about such things.. so if he already has a registry cleaner he trusts it might outweigh the inherent risks registry cleaners present.. not sure.

I've had clients tell me of such issues before and once on site once found pink blinds reflecting on one of the two monitors.  Because of the angle of tilt (they should be slightly tilted in vs. side by side) this affected one but not both.  Another time it was a designer lamp shade.. without being on site with the OP's system you can only guess at so much.. but anything that would normally affect your captures in the field (color casts from walls, green lawns, ceilings, and so forth) have the potential to affect your viewing monitors..

When you try to help someone on the internet with such a complex issue.. you never really expect to be right.. but you hope it motivates their thought in a direction that helps..
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: shayaweiss on June 12, 2010, 04:25:19 pm
Steve and John,

I regularly run CCleaner and also something called PowerSuite which was recommended to me by Windows support. I try to avoid installing new things. Only now I tried iColor and BasICColor.

I want to learn and understand, that's why I started this thread here (and not somewhere else...) Now I'll have to find the time to install windows on a different hard drive with no extras, boot from there and see what happens, correct? Maybe I could just run win7 in save-mode?

I tried again to run the monitors connected to a different workstation, and their behavior was quite the same on that different computer, where I did not install all this software, except Match3 to make i12 run.

All monitors here are properly hooded. The darkroom has 18% gray walls and furniture including the desktop, glare free JUST ambient light (about 8 lux) with outside light completely blocked out. Because of these issues I have, I frequently checked all ambient light conditions lately.


Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: shayaweiss on June 20, 2010, 09:27:41 pm
Hi,

A week later, having tried and retried everything that was mentioned here, still, they are far apart! Right now, I have one pinkish and the other one greenish.

I also tried Argyll with DTP94b, the two Eizos don't come closer! Argyll and the closest common denominator between the two screens as color temperature, 5800K, helped a lot with uniformity, but...

What did I not try? What bothers me is that I have ABSOLUTELY NO CLUE of what's going on. I would like to understand...

Even the Monitors are not the same anymore, as one was already changed by the vendor. I'll give back a second one in the coming days.

Anyone?
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: shayaweiss on June 20, 2010, 10:33:32 pm
WOW!

I have no Idea why but... YES... They are as close as it can get. Only when I spread one white documet over both, can I sea one pinkish and one greenish tint, but that's normal I think, as the application can only pick up one profile at a time.


I recalibrated and reprofiled, again from scratch, deleting, reseting and uninstalling everey old profile and driver. Than I used i1d2 with Quato's iColor Display 3. And that's final.

The only reason I can figure out, why this works, is that Quato's software has these corrections for wide gamut displays, maybe something close to what the filters do in the custom mated i1d2 by NEC. I did already get the best results with this combination before, but now, it's ALMOST PERFECT. I have still no clue what I did different this time!? I'll think about it, and eventually let you know.
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: Steve Weldon on June 21, 2010, 12:42:21 am
Quote from: shayaweiss
WOW!

I have no Idea why but... YES... They are as close as it can get. Only when I spread one white documet over both, can I sea one pinkish and one greenish tint, but that's normal I think, as the application can only pick up one profile at a time.


I recalibrated and reprofiled, again from scratch, deleting, reseting and uninstalling everey old profile and driver. Than I used i1d2 with Quato's iColor Display 3. And that's final.

The only reason I can figure out, why this works, is that Quato's software has these corrections for wide gamut displays, maybe something close to what the filters do in the custom mated i1d2 by NEC. I did already get the best results with this combination before, but now, it's ALMOST PERFECT. I have still no clue what I did different this time!? I'll think about it, and eventually let you know.
Hi Shayaweiss.  I'm glad you found an acceptable match.  Does this mean you won't be getting the NEC's?

If the colors are correct except for the white screen across both monitors then you are as close as you can get without hand adjusting the whitepoint for visual discrepancies.  I think I explained how my new NEC monitors exhibited the same issue with a white screen as they were separated by 500+ hours of run time.. but now that the newest one has hours on it, it's now matching fine.  The age of the monitors indeed is a factor.

In the NEC Spectraview II manual they explain how to adjust for this visual mismatch.  You might find it useful to download the manual and see if you can transfer those procedures over to the software you're using.. I'm not sure if your software supports it.. but give it a read and maybe it will.

I think you're getting there for several reasons.  1.  The video card you're now using supports two LUT's.. and you got rid of that HDMI to DVI adapter..  Two big things.   Deleting all unused drivers and registry entries is also helpful.

I find the tints on the white screen annoying at  best.. which is why I go to great care to buy matched monitors.. but if your colors and grays appear correct then you probably have a useful match.
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: shayaweiss on June 21, 2010, 05:46:48 am
I offer following CONCLUSION

[!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=http://hoech.net/dispcalGUI/)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE (http://hoech.net/dispcalGUI/)[div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]A note about colorimeters, wide-gamut displays and dispcalGUI

Colorimeters need a correction matrix in hardware or software to obtain correct measurements from wide-gamut displays. The latter is currently not supported by dispcalGUI, so if you own a wide-gamut display and colorimeter which has not been specifically tuned for this display (i.e. contains a correction matrix in hardware), you will need a spectrometer to accurately measure such a screen.[/quote]

IMHO, that confirms, what Czornyj wrote and my findings, already mentioned earlier. There is one decisive factor. I'll paraphrase the above quoted Florian Hoech: When using a colorimeter with a wide gamut monitor, the device must have a correction matrix applied in hardware, as for the NEC custom mated i1d2 sensor, or applied through the software, like Quato's iColor Display 3. I don't now about the EIZO setup, but it guess ColorNavigator must apply a correction matrix, doesn't it?

This finally explains, why my wide gamut monitors

 - do not work with a regular colorimeter, like the DTP94 or the i1 Display 2 (you might not notice this, as long as you have only one monitor, and the tint is not too strong, as the sensors seems to be consistently off between every characterization and profiling) combined with a software not applying a corrective matrix, like x-rites eye-one Match3 (don't tell me it works, just read the uncountable lamenting threads out there), BasICColor Display 4, or even SpectraView II and Argyll.

 - but they do work with a software matrix filter like Quato's Display 3. (I don't know of any other. Do you?)

 - I could not verify that it should be fine with the matrix filter mated hardware, like the NEC sensor (We are trying to buy one. Any cheap suggestions with overseas delivery?),
 
 - or, as stated above, I could use a spectrometer, as a workaround, having all the disadvantages of the spectrometer measuring a display.


Further questions:

1 ) Why are they consistently off by the same different degree proper to each monitor?
2 ) Why is it that ( and I read this also in a number of desperate user comments ) after characterization, but before profiling the monitor always seems to look a lot better?

Anyone?

P.S.: Evidently, I agree with you, Steve, that changing the graphic card, the cables and connections, as well as cleaning up the drivers etc. is a prerequisite through which you have guided me with a lot of patience. And yes, I will get the new PA241 hopefully soon, because things are now maybe perfect in the world of Flexscan, but still I have not a good enough uniformity in brightness and chroma. It disturbs me and my colleagues here too much.
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: WombatHorror on June 27, 2010, 02:38:28 am
Quote from: Steve Weldon
2.  If you don't have internal LUT's the next step is to call Nvidia and confirm if your card had dual LUT's or not.  I'm almost positive it does not.. but never take anyones word for these things.. and be careful what technician you listen to at Nvidia.. if they go "LUT what?" or hesitate in anyway.. or doesn't know immediately what you're talking about.. then ask to talk to a senior/advanced tech.. because all that guy will do is read the same manual you've already read.. and probably come up with the wrong answer.

Don't most nvidia cards these days have dual LUTs?

All of my recent ones have had that.
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: WombatHorror on June 27, 2010, 02:51:56 am
Quote from: Steve Weldon
This is great news.. but I must admit I'm more intrigued than ever.  Despite Czornyj's explanation of using a colorimeter, specifically 1i2 and Imatch3, this combination is not only working correctly on tons of wide-gamut monitors.. but are in fact recommended and listed as compatible with wide-gamut monitors.  Yes, there might be some minor differences at the fringes.. but not enough to using anything else if it costs you even a single dollar.

And in fact.. I'm using the 1i2 puck with my wide-gamut (NEC LCD2690uxi2's) monitors with excellent results.

I don't think an eye1 D2 does so well on a wide gamut, as is

look at the crazy results TFT gets on wide gamut monitors using standard software and a Lacie badged EyeOneD2

maybe it works ok on your NEC because the monitor is using the internal factory measurements for the primaries as a basis step???
Title: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral
Post by: Steve Weldon on June 27, 2010, 12:13:08 pm
Quote from: LarryBaum
I don't think an eye1 D2 does so well on a wide gamut, as is

look at the crazy results TFT gets on wide gamut monitors using standard software and a Lacie badged EyeOneD2

maybe it works ok on your NEC because the monitor is using the internal factory measurements for the primaries as a basis step???
The 1id2 works fine on my NEC's (2) because the SVII software includes matching profiles that allow the 1id2 to work fine within tolerances) using the NEC(s) monitors and 1id2 puck.. Without these matching profiles they likely would work they same as they work on other wide gamut displays.. like crap..

Not only that.. I have (2) LCD2690uxi2's side by side in a dual display stand.. and they're matched perfectly.  So.. if they are wrong.. they're wrong the same amount.. and I an easily make up this difference in the rest of my color profile.  People need to remember the monitor profile is only the beginning..