Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: John Hollenberg on April 27, 2010, 07:04:37 pm
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Scott Martin has just published a review of the new X300 generation of Canon printers (6300/8300) here on Luminous Landscape, including comparisons with equivalent Epson and HP printers:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/...ters/x300.shtml (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/x300.shtml)
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I've been using my 8300 (8100 for two years prior and Epson 9800/9600 before that) for two weeks now and can definitely echo Scott's results.
Anyone want a good iPF 8100 or Epson 9800?
Scott Martin has just published a review of the new X300 generation of Canon printers (6300/8300) here on Luminous Landscape, including comparisons with equivalent Epson and HP printers:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/...ters/x300.shtml (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/x300.shtml)
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Scott Martin has just published a review of the new X300 generation of Canon printers (6300/8300) here on Luminous Landscape, including comparisons with equivalent Epson and HP printers:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/...ters/x300.shtml (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/x300.shtml)
Thanks for this - this was a very informative review and impression of the new Canon.
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Scott Martin has just published a review of the new X300 generation of Canon printers (6300/8300) here on Luminous Landscape, including comparisons with equivalent Epson and HP printers:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/...ters/x300.shtml (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/x300.shtml)
That pricing at the end iof the article is a typo isn't it? The 8300 can't be $3500.
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That pricing at the end iof the article is a typo isn't it? The 8300 can't be $3500.
No, it isn't a typo. Scott's comment: "The street pricing is in that neighborhood yes, with the current promotions/rebates."
as quoted from the Canon iPF Wiki Discussion Forum: http://canonipf.wikispaces.com/message/view/FAQ/23376863 (http://canonipf.wikispaces.com/message/view/FAQ/23376863)
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ITSupplies.com has the 8300 listed for $4,999 (have to add to cart to see price). There's a $900 rebate, and if you qualify there's an additional $500 competitive trade-in rebate as well.
Some of these places will give you even better prices over the phone (I got a great deal on my 6300 by calling Shades of Paper).
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I found it a great and very helpful review. Many thanks to Scott.
as a long term Epson user, I believe my next upgrade will be to a Canon. The only thing is I wanted a 60" wide printer, and Canon haven't updated that to the new versions as yet. Hopefully in the next 6 months, or does anyone know better?
Like many photographers I'm a sporadic printer, with long shut downs between sessions. Everyone concurs that the Canons are far better than the Epson's in this regard, with no time wasted on blocked nozzles or whatever - just what I need. I cant tell you the umber f times I've printed something on expensive paper only to find a micro blocked nozzle has occurred half way through the print, ruining it.
After 10 years it looks like Epson are loosing my business.
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Let's hope so. It is about time for Epson to loose it's fine art printing quasi-monopoly. A technology that wastes so much ink just to keep operative is not viable anymore. Greenpeace and such should take action. On top of that, Epson Mexico is the worst company in the world regarding support to customers.
Eduardo
I found it a great and very helpful review. Many thanks to Scott.
as a long term Epson user, I believe my next upgrade will be to a Canon. The only thing is I wanted a 60" wide printer, and Canon haven't updated that to the new versions as yet. Hopefully in the next 6 months, or does anyone know better?
Like many photographers I'm a sporadic printer, with long shut downs between sessions. Everyone concurs that the Canons are far better than the Epson's in this regard, with no time wasted on blocked nozzles or whatever - just what I need. I cant tell you the umber f times I've printed something on expensive paper only to find a micro blocked nozzle has occurred half way through the print, ruining it.
After 10 years it looks like Epson are loosing my business.
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Like many photographers I'm a sporadic printer, with long shut downs between sessions. Everyone concurs that the Canons are far better than the Epson's in this regard, with no time wasted on blocked nozzles or whatever - just what I need. I cant tell you the umber f times I've printed something on expensive paper only to find a micro blocked nozzle has occurred half way through the print, ruining it.
Another improvement with the X300 printers is the lower price for the printheads if you do end up needing an out of warranty replacement. The older generation printheads ran about $600 each. For the X300 printheads, I see they are listed at $450 each at itsupplies.com
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Another improvement with the X300 printers is the lower price for the printheads if you do end up needing an out of warranty replacement. The older generation printheads ran about $600 each. For the X300 printheads, I see they are listed at $450 each at itsupplies.com
The price of the older head types did become lower too as I understand it, for the iPF9000 it is now 360 Euro versus 500 Euro before. Excl Vat.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/)
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I just got my Canon 8300 a few weeks ago, and after going through the setup process and calibration processes, have made a few prints of various sizes on different papers. I have to say, I'm very impressed with the image quality, the gamut, and the speed. I am a long time Epson user, including having been sponsored by them for color management and printing workshops, but I finally tired of dealing with the two issues that made me crazy - clogs, and on the newer printers the need to blow out one black ink to be able to use another. Both seemed to me to be things that were rooted in assumptions about printer users that didn't match up with my reality - I don't print high volumes all the time (and I know that if I did the clog problem wouldn't be so bad) and I do print on multiple paper types.
The only thing that I'm not terribly happy about (other than the Canon site's inability to reliably push the PDF user manual to me first try...I always get hangs in the download that force me to have to kill the download and start over and over again) is the cut sheet paper handling. It seems to me that it really requires more than two hands, and I'm only equipped with two...
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ITSupplies.com has the 8300 listed for $4,999 (have to add to cart to see price). There's a $900 rebate, and if you qualify there's an additional $500 competitive trade-in rebate as well.
Some of these places will give you even better prices over the phone (I got a great deal on my 6300 by calling Shades of Paper).
Ditto Shades of Paper. I've been dealing with Jason Adams for the past few years and bought both my 6100 and 8300 from him. Very happy.
Cheers, Joe
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For those who have the 8300, any comments on Black & White printing, particularly neutrality of black & white prints?
I'm also interested to hear your thoughts on the quality of B&W vs. Epsons -- I've found that the Epsons needed a RIP (I've used ImagePrint) to deliver no-compromise work. For me, ImagePrint represents a clunky workflow, particularly with the rise of Lightroom--it would be nice to be rid of it.
Speaking of printing utilities, I assume Canon's print utility is only available through Photoshop, and not through LR?
Thanks,
-Brad
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For those who have the 8300, any comments on Black & White printing, particularly neutrality of black & white prints?
Canon's black ink neutrality, combined with scratch resistance and lower gloss differential, would make it my current choice for B&W work. All three brands make great B&W prints but when you see side-by-side comparisons of the same image on the same paper the differences are interesting and relevant for "no compromise" users. However, there is a part of me that likes HP's driver based tri-toning (with separate hue control for the highlights, midtones and shadows) in their black and white mode.
Speaking of printing utilities, I assume Canon's print utility is only available through Photoshop, and not through LR?
Yes, the Print plug-in is only available for Photoshop and DPP. Lightroom and all other apps use the regular driver. As much as I love the plug-in, LR's print sharpening and parametric printing workflow are big reasons to print from LR over PS. I try to encourage my clients to print in LR these days even if it requires a round trip back from PS. For many people, now is the time to kick old habits, reconsider how we do things and really embrace parametric workflow procedures.
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Canon's black ink neutrality, combined with scratch resistance and lower gloss differential, would make it my current choice for B&W work. All three brands make great B&W prints but when you see side-by-side comparisons of the same image on the same paper the differences are interesting and relevant for "no compromise" users. However, there is a part of me that likes HP's driver based tri-toning (with separate hue control for the highlights, midtones and shadows) in their black and white mode.
Yes, the Print plug-in is only available for Photoshop and DPP. Lightroom and all other apps use the regular driver. As much as I love the plug-in, LR's print sharpening and parametric printing workflow are big reasons to print from LR over PS. I try to encourage my clients to print in LR these days even if it requires a round trip back from PS. For many people, now is the time to kick old habits, reconsider how we do things and really embrace parametric workflow procedures.
Hey Scott,
thanks for a most informative review. Do you have any notion if/when Canon will extend these improvements to a 17 inch machine? foolish thought...or to a 13 inch?
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Canon's black ink neutrality, combined with scratch resistance and lower gloss differential, would make it my current choice for B&W work. All three brands make great B&W prints but when you see side-by-side comparisons of the same image on the same paper the differences are interesting and relevant for "no compromise" users.
Are the black inks neutrality different from the iPF6100 generation?
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I agee. Shades Of Paper has been following the Canon series since the beginning and do lots of demos with them at their facility as well as on location. If you are in the US and are considering one of the Canons, I would talk to them first. They study and sell of the the brands of printers and media. And, they are very honest people to deal with.
john
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Hey Scott, thanks for a most informative review. Do you have any notion if/when Canon will extend these improvements to a 17 inch machine? foolish thought...or to a 13 inch?
I don't know of any plans for a 17" or 60" refresh.
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Well the very inexpensive well thought out QTR software is SO much superior for a comprehensive black and white workflow to the Epson ABW situation. Unfortunately, it appears that Epson has made it impossible for Roy Harrington to continue to offer QTR support to the recent Epson units. That's just plain stupid if it is true. Just mind boggling if that is what their game is. That won't help Epson, it will just move their customers to Canon and Hp. Even with old inferior K2 printers, QTR rocked big time, and made monochrome feasible and it really finessed K3. They should have given Harrington a medal of honor ....instead they ignored him. He did it right. And they were playing a game of catch up.
j
For those who have the 8300, any comments on Black & White printing, particularly neutrality of black & white prints?
I'm also interested to hear your thoughts on the quality of B&W vs. Epsons -- I've found that the Epsons needed a RIP (I've used ImagePrint) to deliver no-compromise work. For me, ImagePrint represents a clunky workflow, particularly with the rise of Lightroom--it would be nice to be rid of it.
Speaking of printing utilities, I assume Canon's print utility is only available through Photoshop, and not through LR?
Thanks,
-Brad
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What's happened with recent Epsons to make support impossible in QTR? I took a quick look through the QTR group and didn't see any discussion of this.
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Are the x300 printer printing true black inks only for BW or is it composite as Epson are?
I can understand that with a rip that can control the black channels you could print on Epson in K only but the ABW still has some composite. HP in that regard is pretty good although I really think it's best to use ICC profiles with the HP Z, so some composite can be in the mix depending on profiles.
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I just recently bought an Epson 9900 and am very pleased with the results. I am also impressed with the new Canon printers. I would like to know from anyone who prints on canvas with the new Canon's how the Canon canvas might compare with Epson's. I use the Epson Premium Satin canvas and have gotten very good results from this. Any feedback would be appreciated.
Gar
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Are the x300 printer printing true black inks only for BW or is it composite as Epson are? I can understand that with a rip that can control the black channels you could print on Epson in K only but the ABW still has some composite.
Canon's "Monochrome Photos" mode is just like Epson's ABW mode. It prioritizes the black and gray inks and uses a super low amount of color inks - just enough for toning purposes (with hue control in the driver).
Of note is Bowhaus' "True Black and White" RIP software. For "no-compromise black and white work" it's absolutely fantastic and far superior to QTR.
http://www.trueblackandwhite.com/ (http://www.trueblackandwhite.com/)
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Canon's "Monochrome Photos" mode is just like Epson's ABW mode. It prioritizes the black and gray inks and uses a super low amount of color inks - just enough for toning purposes (with hue control in the driver).
Of note is Bowhaus' "True Black and White" RIP software. For "no-compromise black and white work" it's absolutely fantastic and far superior to QTR.
http://www.trueblackandwhite.com/ (http://www.trueblackandwhite.com/)
Nice, reasonably priced, and a working demo. I like the fact you can read in a lin chart directly.
Now just have to get a x300.
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Of note is Bowhaus' "True Black and White" RIP software. For "no-compromise black and white work" it's absolutely fantastic and far superior to QTR.
http://www.trueblackandwhite.com/ (http://www.trueblackandwhite.com/)
Looks interesting, too bad it's Mac-only and doesn't support the x300's yet (according to the documentation on that page, at least).
I find the Canon's monochrome mode to be good, with better linearity and DMax than printing with RGB profiles. I use QuadtoneRIP and my Eye1Pro to create profiles for the monochrome mode. The toning controls make it pretty easy to get the warm-tone prints I like for most of my B/W work, and from what I've seen the toning controls don't have any effect on density/linearity, so I can use a single QTR profile and vary the toning if I want (understanding that the soft-proof only shows the toning of the original profile settings, of course).
If you prefer a dead-neutral print and you're using 3rd party papers, you might be better off with a custom profile for the RGB printing pipeline, because using the simple x/y-axis controls in monochrome mode it might be difficult to get a truly neutral result on papers that don't quite match up with the Canon media types. It might work well with some papers, but not so well with others. For instance on Photo Rag Baryta, the "Neutral" setting in the monochrome driver produces prints with the 'a' channel in the -.2 to -.4 range, with the 'b' channel in the 1.5-2.5 range. The result doesn't look particularly neutral. I could probably improve on that with some iterative tweaking, but since I usually prefer warmer tones it's not something I have pursued. If I want a neutral print I'll just use my RGB profile.
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Looks interesting, too bad it's Mac-only and doesn't support the x300's yet (according to the documentation on that page, at least).
Bowhaus tells me the x300 printers are supported in the current version and their website should be updated shortly. It's sweet software and a delight for the demanding B&W printmaker.
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Bauhaus really is a nice well thought out software and has been for a long time. These guys are master printmakers too which makes me like them even more. I saw an exhibition they did a few years ago of the great jazz photographs of Herman Leonard from 4x5 drum scans, with an earlier version of that software and a custom MIS monochrome inkset on Crane Silver Rag. It was just beautiful. Even then, like 5 years ago, everyone thought they were 30x40 silver prints. I wish they supported my HPZ series :-( .
It doesn't seem to be available for newer Epson models either?
They must be working closely with Canon on this. If so, then Canon is the smartest most innovative printer company out there now. I will definitely take a close look at them for my next printer. They are getting all their ducks in a row with speed, gamut, polymer encapsulation and better gloss rendition on the fiber gloss media. Good for Canon.
john
Bowhaus tells me the x300 printers are supported in the current version and their website should be updated shortly. It's sweet software and a delight for the demanding B&W printmaker.
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I don't mind at all that there is a specific RIP for Canon. They have always been jaded by support. HP were on the underdog side but have enough pull and money to make things work with the companies usually geared toward Epson. HP of course always was and still is huge in the CAD market where all the others trail.
Since I love Qimage so much for what it does, and the studio version is 100$ , 200$ for this just for Canon and runs on Mac is a fair deal.
If it stays a plus exclusively for Canon that may be a unique option. Canon need the chance to get their products into mainstream. Their marketing isn't as strong as it should be.