Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: shewhorn on April 11, 2010, 01:29:00 am
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Is there anyone out there who has tried printing to Epson Exhibition Fiber with a Canon IPF8300 yet? I'm getting some pretty bad scratches. Some of them appear to line right up with the pinch rollers on the edge of each.... "pinch roller module". Some of the scratches though I just can't trace. I spent 20 minutes watching it print and as far as I can tell the scratches are happening before the ink is getting laid down. It's definitely the result of the paper going through the paper path as I was working with 24x30" sheets. At first I'd created a paper size of 24"x30" and printed 4 sheets like that. To test the theory that it was picking up the scratches in the direction of the print feed I loaded it in a 30"x24" configuration and rand the same print and sure enough the scratches were in the direction of the feed.
I tried printing the same print (Bill Atkinson's test page) with Crane Museo Silver Rag. It's not nearly as noticeable there (you really have to know exactly what you're looking for and where to look, for example the most prominent scratch in a 24x30 orientation runs right through the number 2 key on the calculator).
Curious to know if anyone has run across this yet? I'll give Canon a ring on Monday. I'm hoping it's something simple but in the mean time I figured I'd see if anyone here had come across this. The only thought I have at the moment is that perhaps I'm not laying enough ink down (the manual says something about this) BUT... with the Crane Museo Silver Rag I'm using their custom developed media type so I'm not sure that's it. With the Canon IPF6100 I've just used Premium Semigloss Photo with the Epson Exhibition Fiber and built a profile off of that. The 8300 has different media types. I made the assumption that Premium Semigloss Photo 280 was the same thing but that could be a wrong assumption. The new Media Configuration Tool looks pretty cool but I didn't get a chance to dive into that quite yet.
Cheers, Joe
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I would also ask your question at the Canon iPF Wiki, as there are a few people there with the new generation of iPF printers:
http://canonipf.wikispaces.com/message/list/FAQ (http://canonipf.wikispaces.com/message/list/FAQ)
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Talked to Canon support this morning and just thought I'd pass this on...
Some of the settings in the media type actually control the tension on the pinch rollers. They suggested trying Graphic Matte Canvas as a media type.... not to make pretty prints but just to see whether or not the reducing pinch roller pressure will solve the problem with the scratches. If it does then the fix would be building a custom media type which hopefully won't be too difficult.
Cheers, Joe
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I would also ask your question at the Canon iPF Wiki, as there are a few people there with the new generation of iPF printers:
http://canonipf.wikispaces.com/message/list/FAQ (http://canonipf.wikispaces.com/message/list/FAQ)
Thanks John,
Been on the phone with Canon support for quite a while now. I'll post over there if we can't get it resolved... will post the outcome here either way.
Cheers, Joe
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No resolution, they had me send some prints in to VA which they'll review tomorrow.
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Tech is coming out tomorrow to replace the pinch rollers and the springs. Hopefully that'll nip it in the bud.
Cheers, Joe
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They finally came today, opened up the printer... "I don't think there's anything we can do" was pretty much the conclusion. He figured that even if we replaced the entire pinch roller assembly, the same problem would still be present. He left with some prints that are being sent to Canon but I overheard them talking on the phone and it sounds like they're going to say "we don't support that media".
Now, they haven't said that yet so I can't draw any conclusions but it does look like that's where it's headed SO, if you want to print on Epson Exhibition Fiber or Crane Museo Silver Rag (the issue isn't NEARLY as bad with the Silver Rag, you really have to know what you're looking for there but a critical customer would probably find it) and you're about to pull the trigger on buying one of these printers I'd recommend holding off until more people run some Exhibition Fiber though these machines to see if there's just something really peculiar going on with my machine, or if there's a fundamental flaw in the design of the feed system. For the time being questions still need to be answered.
Cheers, Joe
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That's disappointing to hear, Joe.
Did changing the media settings to canvas make any difference at all, or was the scratching still just as bad?
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That's disappointing to hear, Joe.
Did changing the media settings to canvas make any difference at all, or was the scratching still just as bad?
Spent TONS of time trying different media types, canvas as mentioned earlier, and also did a custom media type using the new Media Configuration Tool (which by the way I think is pretty darn slick) but none of it made a difference. There's still some things to try so it would be premature to say no go on the Exhibition Fiber but the preliminary inspection of the machine looks okay. The tech left with some more prints to FedEx to Canon's top dog engineer so hopefully I'll have more feedback on Monday. I'm a bit bummed but I remain optimistic.
Cheers, Joe
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I've been using my 8300 for about a week and have run a bunch of Silver Rag through it. Looking closely, I don't see any scratches or roller marks. Nor have I seen any on Harman Glossy, either. Haven't tried the Epson paper, though.
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Quick followup for ya. Canon sent me a roll of Polished Rag to test. No scratches there. I sent them some 24x30" sheets of Epson Exhibition Fiber and they tested it in their 8300. They were able to reproduce the scratches there as well. They determined that the scratches are happening when the paper is getting loaded as the way a cut sheet behaves with the front loading is a bit different than how a roll behaves. They are looking into it to see if anything can be done but they thought that this issue would appear with any cut sheet (not just EEF) that was coated. The 6300 and 6350 will not suffer from this issue as they have a straighter path.
Cheers, Joe
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The 6300 and 6350 will not suffer from this issue as they have a straighter path.
Hey Joe,
Sorry to hear of your dilemma, I'm considering the purchase of the 6300. You mention that the 6300 and 6350 will not suffer the same issue. Is that what you were told by Canon?
Kevin
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This new generation of printers (both Epson and Canon) seems dedicated to the manufacturers' media. The X900 Epsons are the same; your choice of media type controls a lot the settings, including spacing between the media and the printhead. The printer menu provides settings dedicated to the manufacturers' own media only. So, if you are using third-party media, you have to guess which media setting is appropriate, if any. There is inevitably a lot of trial and error before you find a setting that works for your favorite media, which means a lot of time and expense.
My Epson 9900 produces severe banding in solid blacks with certain media, such as Museo Glossy Canvas and Canson matt paper. I never did find a proper media setting for the canvas, but for the Canson I found that Enhanced Matt Roll setting with media feed adjustment of +23 eliminates the banding. After many wasted hours, ink and paper, I am about to throw in the towel and stick only to Epson media.
So, these machines deter the use of third party media. The question is: is this level of sensitivity to the media type setting a necessity for the sake of achieving the best IQ, or is it to force users to buy Epson or Canon media?
If you consider how hard Epson has tried to eliminate third party ink suppliers for its machines, the answer would seem to be the latter.
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Hey Joe,
Sorry to hear of your dilemma, I'm considering the purchase of the 6300. You mention that the 6300 and 6350 will not suffer the same issue. Is that what you were told by Canon?
Kevin
Yes, this is what they told me. I asked them if the feed path was the same as on the 6100 (I own a 6100 as well) and they said yes. I can confirm that prints on my 6100 with EEF look good.
Cheers, Joe
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This new generation of printers (both Epson and Canon) seems dedicated to the manufacturers' media.
The Canon ipf's have actually gotten better at media-type handling with each new release, although there's certainly still room for improvement. The original x000's were pretty annoying, as different media types were "locked" to different paper paths, which meant that finding the right media type that you could use for both roll and sheets could be difficult. Special 1-5 were generic types meant to be used with 3rd party glossy papers.
The x100 series added Special 6-10 for 3rd-party matte papers, and with one of the later firmware releases all of the base media types were "unlocked" so that they could be used with any paper path. (The bigger x000's may have gotten this firmware update as well, but I know the 5000 didn't).
Now with the x300's, Canon has added the ability to create custom media types. Some experimentation is still required in choosing the correct "base" type for the custom type, but it's still an improvement from what we had before. It would be nice if Canon more fully documented all the parameters for each media type to eliminate some of the guessing/experimentation required. HP seems to be the leader in this regard. From what I've heard their support for 3rd-party papers is pretty good.
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This new generation of printers (both Epson and Canon) seems dedicated to the manufacturers' media.
I have to disagree with you there and I'm sure Scott will as well. I can tell you that someone at Canon specifically said to me "we really designed this machine to support 3rd party papers". Although the issue with the Epson Exhibition Fiber is a bit of a bummer they're still looking into it and I have to say that support for 3rd party papers IS much better. The MCT is much improved and while there's still room for improvement (it would be nice for the MCT to support taking some readings using a Spectrophotometer so that ink levels can be derived in a more scientific manner) it's now much easier to create a new media type. Just tell it whether you want to use Photo Black or Matte Black ink, and then enter the thickness of the paper. From there it recommends a media type to start with. Once you approve the selection it does a print feed calibration and from there it prints a test pattern with 6 (or is it 7) different levels of ink. I've gone with low or medium low so far. On the coated papers anything above low appears to have some pooling issues and I don't see any improvements with the heavier inks and with the matte papers the heavier ink settings appear to bleed a bit more on the fine details (and I don't see any IQ advantage to using more ink although I haven't done extensive testing yet). After that's all done you can play with head height and vacuum strength and a few other parameters as well.
If I'm not mistaken Canon has also created a new tool specifically for 3rd party paper manufacturers that allows them to create specialized media types. Crane Museo has already posted a custom media type that you can download and then import via the MCT.
I used to be a software engineer (and prior to that a software test engineer). I will say that I think their alpha testing program needs to be a little more methodical in terms of doing matrix testing. If indeed all coated cut sheets are susceptible to scratching then this should have been easy to catch early on. That said... when I was running a software test department I was pretty darn methodical and anal (which from time to time would result in saber clashing with the VP of engineering and a very disappointed CEO) and would often veto releases but I've missed significant things myself so I know how it goes and can empathize (I still would like it fixed though :-) ).
Cheers, Joe
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I can attest to the value of the custom paper type capability in the 8300, from the wrong side of the problem... I created a custom paper type with what seemed to be all the right settings and the printer mangled the paper. Turned out I'd "fat-fingered" some of the info defining the custom paper type and created a really bad set of parameters, and when I fixed my errors, everything was great.
That experience led me to wonder about whether some pre-defined paper types might not be set up exactly right. Not to mention that the paper type names for many Canon papers don't match up to the names on the boxes when you buy them, so Canon's silo-ed product management organization has built a nice little mine field for us - if I guess the equivalency wrong, I'll have problems.
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I'll agree with shewhorn - we have MANY customers of Epson and Canon printers who routinely run third party media with excellent results. Many media manufacturers provide "media type" guidance along with their ICC profile. I own an Epson 3800, which runs many third party papers with no problem.
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You guys are right; I should not have spoken about Canon because I have no experience. But I do have a lot of experience with Epson and there, there is far more sensitivity to media type in the X900 generation. I started with Epson 2000 and 9500 machines. Then, we did not think about media setting except perhaps when a exotic paper proved too think. With the X800 generation, I printed alternately on paper and canvas without changing the media type setting on Imageprint 7, and rarely gave it any thought.
With my 9900, every non-epson media requires careful selection of the media setting and some media feed adjustment. You may not initially notice a problem with the setting when changing media type, but in my case, the problem surfaced in solid blacks and even other solid colors. I initially thought there was a problem with the black ink pump, so I called Epson. In contrast to the Canon users' experience, Epson only tested the printer with Epson media and declared that there was no problem. When I showed him my funky Museo canvas prints, the answer was: we do not support non-epson media. That was the end of my support case.
Since then, as I said, I have found that it is possible to find a setting that works with most third party media. But unless you are married to your favorite paper, it is just less hassle to find the equivalent Epson media that you like and get on with printing instead of constantly fiddling with media type setting and adjustments.
The Canon user that began this post said that Canon support initially asked him to try different settings and eventually suggested a similar Canon media that would not present the scratch problem. Sounded to me like a gentle nudge by Canon as opposed to Epson's brute force -- a matter of differing strategies while sharing the same anti-competitive impulse.
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The Canon user that began this post said that Canon support initially asked him to try different settings and eventually suggested a similar Canon media that would not present the scratch problem. Sounded to me like a gentle nudge by Canon as opposed to Epson's brute force -- a matter of differing strategies while sharing the same anti-competitive impulse.
That is 100% what I was expecting but I'm pleased to say that's not the line they've given me, totally opposite actually. I'm a little curious to maybe get some cut sheets of Canon Polished Rag. If the theory that this is only an issues with coated cut sheets then the Canon paper should exhibit scratches as well.
Cheers, Joe
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Just curious if you've tried Ilford Galarie Gold or Canson Plantine (a bit thinner weight). Also one a side note, how is the B/W performance (neutral tone)?
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That is 100% what I was expecting but I'm pleased to say that's not the line they've given me, totally opposite actually. I'm a little curious to maybe get some cut sheets of Canon Polished Rag. If the theory that this is only an issues with coated cut sheets then the Canon paper should exhibit scratches as well.
Cheers, Joe
I'm eager to hear what you find out. I've only run a few cut sheets of 13x19, didn't have any problems with scratching. although they were Canon media and there were settings in the driver for them. (Although there were NO settings with exactly the same name as the product name, I think I figured out the right ones to choose, so got a good result.) The process for loading cut sheets seems pretty awful, though, and after those few prints found myself wondering if I would be able to load sheets of 17x22 or other bigger sizes without screwing up the paper, and without the printer mangling it as it sucked in the dangling cut sheet. I've got a design in my head now for a "loading rack" to make it easier to load the cut sheets and if I have trouble with big sheets equivalent to what I did with 13x19, I may try building a prototype.
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Did you ever find a solution to the problem of printing Epson Exhibition Fiber on an Canon IPF8300?
After a glitch in ordering a Canon IPF6300, I'm thinking of buying an IPF8300 - but my main media type right now is Exhibition Fiber, in cut sheets - so, if that isn't going to work with the IPF8300, this would be a great time to find out!
Thanks!
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Did you ever find a solution to the problem of printing Epson Exhibition Fiber on an Canon IPF8300?
After a glitch in ordering a Canon IPF6300, I'm thinking of buying an IPF8300 - but my main media type right now is Exhibition Fiber, in cut sheets - so, if that isn't going to work with the IPF8300, this would be a great time to find out!
Thanks!
Hi John,
No there was no solution. Canon's conclusion was that all gloss and semi-gloss cut sheets will be prone to scratching. Interestingly enough I have some of LexJet's "metallic" paper in cut sheets and I have not noticed any scratches on it. After spending some more time with the EEF I can confidently say that it's some of the most delicate paper I've handled.
If you want to use the EEF then the 6300 or 6350 is the better route to go. Transport is the same as the 6100 (which I also have) and I've not noticed any scratches when putting the EEF through the 6100.
Cheers, Joe
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Hi John,
No there was no solution. Canon's conclusion was that all gloss and semi-gloss cut sheets will be prone to scratching. Interestingly enough I have some of LexJet's "metallic" paper in cut sheets and I have not noticed any scratches on it. After spending some more time with the EEF I can confidently say that it's some of the most delicate paper I've handled.
If you want to use the EEF then the 6300 or 6350 is the better route to go. Transport is the same as the 6100 (which I also have) and I've not noticed any scratches when putting the EEF through the 6100.
Cheers, Joe
Thanks for the update Joe!
Well, that leaves me in a bit of a quandary. The problem with any of the large format printers, is that they usually have a margin of an inch or so at the bottom. With the 8300, I thought that I could feed the media sideways, and get a useful 23x30 print, which for a lot of images would work better for me than 24x29.
But better to know now, than after spending a few thousand dollars on a printer that isn't going to do the job!
Thanks again,
John
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The process for loading cut sheets seems pretty awful, though, and after those few prints found myself wondering if I would be able to load sheets of 17x22 or other bigger sizes without screwing up the paper, and without the printer mangling it as it sucked in the dangling cut sheet.
Hmmm ... great heads-up for those of us who use cut media!
Can anyone comment on the cut sheet experience on the new Canons vs. the Epsons?
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Thanks for the update Joe!
Well, that leaves me in a bit of a quandary. The problem with any of the large format printers, is that they usually have a margin of an inch or so at the bottom. With the 8300, I thought that I could feed the media sideways, and get a useful 23x30 print, which for a lot of images would work better for me than 24x29.
But better to know now, than after spending a few thousand dollars on a printer that isn't going to do the job!
Thanks again,
John
I was very disappointed WRT the EEF on the 8300 however... if you can find an alternative (there are many wonderful papers out there) that will work for you, the 8300 is really a fantastic machine. If you're in the US I'd encourage you to give Jason Adams a ring at Shades of Paper and let him know your dilemma. The guy is a walking encyclopedia of the fine art paper industry.
Cheers, Joe
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I'm relatively new to using wide-format printers, and I have a question regarding the use of cut sheets.
I owned the 6100 and now have recently acquired the 8300. My question relating to the use of Epson Exhibition Fiber: Why not use this paper off the roll instead of cut sheets? Is it not practical to print off the roll and then cut? Pardon my ignorance on the subject. I have never used "cut sheets". I assume these are sheets cut from a roll. With the 6100, I had printhead strikes using sheet paper, and this was never a problem when using rolls, so I generally found printing off rolls to be a safer bet, cost effective, and easy enough to cut after printing. As goes my experience, one would assume this problem with scratches might be resolved printing from a roll.
I am still getting my 8300 up and running and have yet to make prints other than test prints and target profiles to evaluate MCT settings on third party papers.
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I'm relatively new to using wide-format printers, and I have a question regarding the use of cut sheets.
I owned the 6100 and now have recently acquired the 8300. My question relating to the use of Epson Exhibition Fiber: Why not use this paper off the roll instead of cut sheets? Is it not practical to print off the roll and then cut? Pardon my ignorance on the subject. I have never used "cut sheets". I assume these are sheets cut from a roll. With the 6100, I had printhead strikes using sheet paper, and this was never a problem when using rolls, so I generally found printing off rolls to be a safer bet, cost effective, and easy enough to cut after printing. As goes my experience, one would assume this problem with scratches might be resolved printing from a roll.
I am still getting my 8300 up and running and have yet to make prints other than test prints and target profiles to evaluate MCT settings on third party papers.
Until this month, EEF was not available in rolls (and it still hasn't begun shipping in rolls as of yet as far as I know).
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No there was no solution. Canon's conclusion was that all gloss and semi-gloss cut sheets will be prone to scratching. Interestingly enough I have some of LexJet's "metallic" paper in cut sheets and I have not noticed any scratches on it. After spending some more time with the EEF I can confidently say that it's some of the most delicate paper I've handled.
Sorry about the 'solution' to your problem but I agree with your conclusion. I use EFF with an Epson 7900. I have had no issues with the printer, but learned that I better be pretty darn careful with the print after it comes out of the printer. But I do really like the paper, so it is worth the extra care it requires.
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Now that EEF is going to be available in rolls in the US... that should be another solution to the problem.
Cheers, Joe
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The Epson Exhibition Fine Art paper is too thick. If you want to use this media, go back to the original form of it, the Innova UltraSmooth Gloss. It is the same media but not so thick and available in sheets and rolls of all sizes. And as has been stated before the Crane Silver Rag that Canon is rebranding is not as thick either, nor is the Cone Type 5 that is a better product than any of these, as the Hahnemuhle Photorag Baryta that I use with the HP Z3100. You are certainly not stuck with the Epson media in this category by any stretch of the imagination. The Innova Semi-Matte may be the very best of all of the brighter white sheets of this kind. Check it out also, it is a great paper if you are looking to emulate gelatin silver emulsions.
From what I have read in the first review of the IPF8300, these new Lucia inks are showing the absolutely smoothest result in regard to gloss performance with the latest gloss fiber media. This is actually one of the reasons I want to buy one of these printers myself. It just seems to me like Epson is doing everything they can to keep better papers like Canson and Hahnemuhle out of their printers and in the process annoying the hell out of everyone. I don't like any of their media period. That alone would keep me away from the 9900, along with the continued poor MK to PK switching and constant head cleanings.
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And as has been stated before the Crane Silver Rag that Canon is rebranding is not as thick either,
Really? I have a roll of both right now... I don't think it's the same stuff at all, at least not the rolls I have. The color temperature is different as is the texture. They're very similar, enough so that I took a look at each very closely thinking it was a rebranding but the Canon Polished Rag is warmer than the CM Silver Rag and the texture is slightly different as well. If they are the same, I'd say the manufacturing tolerances are pretty poor.
As for Exhibition Fibre being too thick? I don't think so. It's certainly not as thick as some of the other papers I use without any problems at all and if it was indeed too thick then this printer wouldn't be able to print to canvas. The Crane Museo retains far more curl than the EEF and is a little more stubborn to handle yet I have no issues with it.
I've tried the Hahnemuhle Photo Ray Baryta and while it's nice, compared to Canson Platine, and Ilford's offerings, I fine the Hahnemuhle to be rather.... sparkly. There's something I like about each paper. I haven't tried the Fine Art Baryta from HFA yet.
At any rate, WRT EEF I've decided that given how extremely fragile it is (I've tried the Innova paper you suggested as well), I just don't want to deal with it. It scratches REALLY easily.
The Innova Semi-Matte may be the very best of all of the brighter white sheets of this kind. Check it out also, it is a great paper if you are looking to emulate gelatin silver emulsions.
Semi-matte? Not sure I've tried that yet. Is that similar in concept to HFA's satin paper?
From what I have read in the first review of the IPF8300, these new Lucia inks are showing the absolutely smoothest result in regard to gloss performance with the latest gloss fiber media. This is actually one of the reasons I want to buy one of these printers myself. It just seems to me like Epson is doing everything they can to keep better papers like Canson and Hahnemuhle out of their printers and in the process annoying the hell out of everyone. I don't like any of their media period. That alone would keep me away from the 9900, along with the continued poor MK to PK switching and constant head cleanings.
It's not completely free of gloss differential, it's there but it's not really an issue. Harman FB AL Warmtone does particularly well in that regard.
Cheers, Joe
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The Innova Semi-Matte is also called Satin in Europe, has a texture and look that is different than any that I've tried. To me it really looks the most like gelatin silver, and unlike the similar Innova Ultrasmooth Gloss ( Epson Exhibition fiber is a thicker version of that) it doesn't produce glare and reflections when viewing on the table or in a portfolio, but it still retains the same dynamic range. There are only two issues I have with it, first like the Ultrasmooth it has a significant amount of optical brightners in it, putting is slightly on the cool side, and second the rolls, like most of these papers can curl a lot and smaller prints have to be flattened.
The other great one is the Cone Type 5. To me it a perfected version of Silver Rag, with no oba to burn out. Slightly more texture than the Innova Satin, but a good believable texture that doen't look machine made like so many of them. Actually on the Z3100 it completely eliminates any gloss differential, even on black and white. With the Innova papers I still feel I need to do a light uv spray on them.
john
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This thread is now four years old. Can any of the owners of the Canon iPF 8400 comment on whether it scratches sheet media such as Exhibition Fiber? I know that the Canons are harder to load with sheets, but wasn't aware of the problem of actually scratching sheets until I saw it discussed on the Canon wiki, which references this thread.
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IPF 8300 here. No scratches on sheets/rolls of EEF, Silver Rag, nor Canon Polished Rag (discontinued)