Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: PaulT on April 02, 2010, 08:40:46 am
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Thanks to some great efforting by David Farkas I was able to get 2 S2 bodies with 70, 180 lenses for a recent 4 day trip to Bologna. I took a M9 w 21 lux as backup.
The second day in Bologna they were hit with an huge snowstorm. Snow, sleet and driving rain for 3 days in a row- many of the people had never seen the city with that much snow in their lifetime. This was great because I had purchased the Leica system to use in rough conditions. Rather than having to put the MF system away at the first sign of bad weather I wanted to be able to shoot without worries (as I had with my Canon system) and take advantage of the great glass. So for 2 days in the sub 30 degree, rain, ice and snow I walked around with the S2 and M9 hanging unprotected on my shoulders. I wiped them off when I could not see thru the viewfinder and kept shooting.
you can see some of the images here:
B&W- http://www.thingsnotseen.com (http://www.thingsnotseen.com)
Color- http://www.thingshopedfor.com (http://www.thingshopedfor.com)
I will have a full report on the trip shortly on my Web site ( http://www.paultornaquindici.com (http://www.paultornaquindici.com) ) . Until then I would say the camera is truly elegant, easy to get to the right menu quickly, presets worked very well and made for simple easy use. Love the lenses. And best of all the ability to have that quality when shooting out in the elements is a real joy. Which was exactly what I had wanted the camera to do in the first place.
There is an image (the second- number 2 on http://www.thingsnotseen.com (http://www.thingsnotseen.com) ) that was shot handheld at 1/6 f4 at ISO 640 and it is one of my favorites.
PaulT
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Thanks to some great efforting by David Farkas I was able to get 2 S2 bodies with 70, 180 lenses for a recent 4 day trip to Bologna. I took a M9 w 21 lux as backup.
PaulT
Are these finished pictures, or un-post-processed?
Did you just use ambient, or any flash-fill or reflectors?
Have you considered a Hasselblad system... the raw shadow fill in Phocus 2.1 would help a great deal.
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Have you considered a Hasselblad system... the raw shadow fill in Phocus 2.1 would help a great deal.
Dick... any RAW converter provides shadow and highlight recovery.
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Dick... any RAW converter provides shadow and highlight recovery.
Maybe... but I think Phocus 2.1 is an order of magnitude better... did you try to e-fill the shadows in your pictures?
When I get the H4D-60 and post sample files, shadow recovery/noise is one of the "real world" "real differences" I will be looking for, particularly as Phase, apparently, has problems with this (Dalsa 60 Mpx) chip.
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Maybe... but I think Phocus 2.1 is an order of magnitude better... did you try to e-fill the shadows in your pictures?
When I get the H4D-60 and post sample files, shadow recovery/noise is one of the "real world" "real differences" I will be looking for, particularly as Phase, apparently, has problems with this (Dalsa 60 Mpx) chip.
Can you enlighten us on WHERE Phase has problems with the Dalsa sensor PLEASE.
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Can you enlighten us on WHERE Phase has problems with the Dalsa sensor PLEASE.
Have you not read this forum?
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Have you not read this forum?
Dick I know about 10 or more folks with P65 backs and no one has said a word on ANY issues. I have shot it personally at least a dozen times on workshops and with Jack. So show me the threads and on what is wrong. And no i do NOT read every word on forums. I own one myself and I am a working pro so my time is limited.
The only problem I ever had with a P65 was a pre production model before deliveries where made to the public . Other than that I have not heard a word on Dalsa issues in the P65. Is this urban myth or something since Phase, my dealer and owners have never said one word of any issues.
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Dick I know about 10 or more folks with P65 backs and no one has said a word on ANY issues. I have shot it personally at least a dozen times on workshops and with Jack. So show me the threads and on what is wrong. And no i do NOT read every word on forums. I own one myself and I am a working pro so my time is limited.
The only problem I ever had with a P65 was a pre production model before deliveries where made to the public . Other than that I have not heard a word on Dalsa issues in the P65. Is this urban myth or something since Phase, my dealer and owners have never said one word of any issues.
Grain is a problem with film, you accept it and/or change to a finer grain film.
Digital artifacts are a fact of life in digital cameras... but how much does who think is a problem? Come to Warwickshire when I get my H4D-60 and we can do some relevant side-by-side tests.
I have not visited any other photographic forum for some considerable time, so I read all the relevant info I have read was on this forum, or in links from it.
I have not found the original post, where someone mentioned that there was a problem (without specifying what) and Doug denied that there was a problem.
I first became aware of the nature of the problem at the top of page three in the link from the post about the Hasselblad Factory visit.
I had visited Hasselblad Factory in early February 2010 with a prior arrangment by Shriro HK.
I had used the Imacon I96 and then upgraded to I96C DB with Rollei 6008 since 2000 and then dropped the whole system in 2006 and decided to choose Hasselblad H3D as my core system.
In addition, I had also visited the previous named Rollei Factory in Braunsweigh and Leica Factory in Solms in 2005.
I had discovered an important news regarding a gentleman called Mr Hans (I supposed is the key man from Rollei in charged of the Sales in Asian Countries at that time) Rollei is suffering a serious financial difficulties during 2005-2007.
Beside this, our (Ex-Rollei) HK distributor - Jebsen Group didn't place many orders from Rollei and the agreement was expired @9/2008, however, we have a parallel importer in HK whom I found out all this stories from 2005 onwards.
Anyway, I was very happy and satisfied with what I have seen and learned from this Trip.
Hasselblad's guy is very nice, with passion, with all their Superb Technical knowledge and well managed operation.
I was lucky I had make this decision in 2006 to drop all my Rollei systems which I had used the Brand for over 20 years.
Most of the replies do have an Brief English Translation, indeed, the Chinese version especially on the 1st page is the FULL Original Version.
Hassselblad Factory Visit (http://www.digiback.net/bbs/viewthread.php?tid=214&extra=page%3D1&page=3&sid=2I66RU)
"Discussion with Peter for the H4D-60!
Yes, Peter told me the H4D-60 indeed is using the DALSA CCD Chips but Exclusive to Hasselblad, however, it is not the STOCK version as P1 is using. Hasselbald also delivered the best Optical Quality where this STOCK version DALSA 60M CCD chips do suffer a significant Shadow Noise Problem. Therefore, Hasselblad and DALSA worked together and drill down the cause of the issues and enhanced it with an Exclusive 60M Chips version for Hasselblad.
The gentleman responsible to help DALSA to solve the NOISE Problem is named Anders Poulsen (R&D Manager - Hasselblad).
Please remember!
If you want just the Ordinary STOCK version but charge at an extraordinary price, you may go now and pay for it.
If you are looking for the Best, you should then go for the H4D-60 with a proven on-going product enhancement and a secure Product Life Cycle to protect your valuable investment.
PS: It is very difficult to find any sample pictures taken by P1 DB in a long exposure mode or low light condition. Do you know why?"
I will post this now, and post other links in a few minutes.
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Hasselbald also delivered the best Optical Quality where this STOCK version DALSA 60M CCD chips do suffer a significant Shadow Noise
So this comes from a Hassy guy. Hmmm
Dick sorry bud this is utter bullshit. I have seen no such issue with a P40+ or P65+ running through anything processed in C1. I have shot the P40+ down to very low light and very low exposures and have not witnessed any issues at all PERIOD. Jack has done the same with his P65+ and again no issues whatsoever. Dick do yourself a favor before you actually believe the BS out there run the test yourself. If there is any issue like this i would have heard from Doug, Dave , Steve or Phase itself. Please be careful on what maybe some little marketing or axe to grind showmanship out there. I would really like to see real proof of this claim. The Hassy 60 is not out yet so who knows what walls it may or may not run into. They are both very well established systems so i really don't buy one of them may have some real serious issue that is being delivered to customers. Obviously shit happens but this one is out in left field as far as I see. I need to see real working proof in front of me to buy into this claim.
BTW for the record i actually like Hassy products and think they have a nice system out there, so I really don't have a bias between the two. The phase system just fits me better and i see some advantages on it.
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Dick BTW I just bought the NEC wide gamut monitor two days ago and right off the bat i can see a lot more to my files and i mean a lot more. So not sure what someone else maybe seeing off a srgb monitor but these wide gamut monitors there is a whole new world out here with our files and they can see really deep into the shadows , really deep. Nothing I am seeing suggest that claim
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If there is any issue like this i would have heard from Doug, Dave , Steve or Phase itself.
So you believe that Phase or their sales people would tell you if there was a problem, and I am a fool for taking note of what I read?
If I decide to by an hd40 or whatever it's called, and sell off my 4 contax's and 2 phase backs, a p31+ and a p21+ WILL I SEE A DIFFERENCE IN THE FINAL FILE? Not a pixel peeping put a loupe on a 30" monitor difference but are the skin tones better, the color response prettier and not so Phase blotchy exact?
BC
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Dick... any RAW converter provides shadow and highlight recovery.
Maybe... but I think Phocus 2.1 is an order of magnitude better...
I see
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So you believe that
I think you took me out of context, but what I meant was on the Phase backs I own, I find skin tones and color rendition very exact, actually too exact. In other words if there is slight redness around a part of the face it picks it up to the point of enhancement.
(We have always fixed this in post and every image, still or motion, that has a decent dollar value to it goes through many rounds of post production, but on set, first frame, first impressions mean a lot).
It had nothing to do with shadow detail or anything dark as long as the iso of a p30+ doesn't go over 200. Past 200 I see some detail loss, but that's another topic.
This week we took a day to do some testing of Version 5 to see how it works for an upcoming project and I was more interested in the skin tone editor than anything. I noticed the skin tone presets takes some of the exactness of color away from the look, but mostly by just adding a warm global color which wasn't what I wanted to see.
To be fair, our studio manager is still testing, so we may find it more useful than I see at first glance.
Actually what I really was trying to duplicate is the look of the Canons with a little more detail, given the fact that so many of our advertising projects are shot on continuous backgrounds and we do so much manipulation in post like placing one person from one image into the next.
But, back to the topic, I don't see any problems in shadow detail, though I'm not using the latest generation Dalsa backs.
I think all of this is splitting hairs and it's not just this forum it's everything digital and as with any camera, film or digital, you work around whatever that camera gives you. 10% less highlight recovery, 10% less shadow detail doesn't mean much.
Now with that in mind and working in today's market where speed and flexibility is important, especially with continuous lighting sources, I would like to see something like a high speed sensor upgrade, (sensor, not the whole back).
Anyway . . .
I found this test somewhat informative, but once the testers got past film, the difference between the digital cameras was very small.
http://www.zacuto.com/shootout (http://www.zacuto.com/shootout)
(warning this is a long video with a somewhat corny intro, but it's informative).
I have a feeling if you lined up Leaf, Blad, Phase and Canon and did this same type of test, you'd see pretty much these same results, but the only way to keep this even is to fill the room with working photographers.
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Are these finished pictures, or un-post-processed?
Did you just use ambient, or any flash-fill or reflectors?
Have you considered a Hasselblad system... the raw shadow fill in Phocus 2.1 would help a great deal.
These are opened in Lightroom and sent to Silver Efex... that's all. Hasselblad's performance in rain, snow and ice is the reason (as noted twice in the post) that I am using the S2!
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Hi everybody,
The Zacuto test has been posted by them some days ago and discussed in 2 or 3 different threads here for days now.
It's a very informative test anyway.
If I remember there were some interesting thoughts about Red Cameras.
What was not clear in the test and has not been answered so far that I know, is the Skywalker ranch movie: with what gear has it been filmed?
A mixed of all the cameras tested?
Coming back to Red Cameras, if Canon is going to Raw video soon, it will be a great dilema for RED.
The other point that I still do not understand, is the constant insistance from James Russel (it starts to be legendary) to have the speed and flexibility of the Canons in MFD.
The reason why I do not understand it is because James is not convinced that putting the systems in a test, there will be (at least for 90% of his works) a noticiable difference. So what's the point if the gear and system that responds to James whishes already exists?
But (ok, maybe, for the fun) there is actually a difference...and the price to pay today is slower and less versatility.
But if Phase or whoever increments the sensor speed, will we not need to increment power in all the chain involved also?
Or this upgrade will be done in such a way that we would notice a speed increment with the same computers...mmm...that sounds strange.
So to power a studio if things keep going that way we'll soon need a nuclear central just for us right? And dozens of coolers, and more engineers,
and as we know that photography is paid better and better, what a nice world to live in.
Seriously, what's the best speed we can have with MFD today with the very best computers availables?
If my calculations are not wrong it is +- 60 frames/min + about 50sec to have all the frames, so we are talking about 2 minutes for 60 frames.
This is simply slow.
Fred.
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Hi everybody,
The Zacuto test has been posted by them some days ago and discussed in 2 or 3 different threads here for days now.
It's a very informative test anyway.
If I remember there were some interesting thoughts about Red Cameras.
What was not clear in the test and has not been answered so far that I know, is the Skywalker ranch movie: with what gear has it been filmed?
A mixed of all the cameras tested?
Coming back to Red Cameras, if Canon is going to Raw video soon, it will be a great dilema for RED.
The other point that I still do not understand, is the constant insistance from James Russel (it starts to be legendary) to have the speed and flexibility of the Canons in MFD.
The reason why I do not understand it is because James is not convinced that putting the systems in a test, there will be (at least for 90% of his works) a noticiable difference. So what's the point if the gear and system that responds to James whishes already exists?
But (ok, maybe, for the fun) there is actually a difference...and the price to pay today is slower and less versatility.
But if Phase or whoever increments the sensor speed, will we not need to increment power in all the chain involved also?
Or this upgrade will be done in such a way that we would notice a speed increment with the same computers...mmm...that sounds strange.
So to power a studio if things keep going that way we'll soon need a nuclear central just for us right? And dozens of coolers, and more engineers,
and as we know that photography is paid better and better, what a nice world to live in.
Seriously, what's the best speed we can have with MFD today with the very best computers availables?
If my calculations are not wrong it is +- 60 frames/min + about 50sec to have all the frames, so we are talking about 2 minutes for 60 frames.
This is simply slow.
Fred.
Nothing worthwhile happens instantly. Think about photography 100 years ago. We should be focused on our own shortcomings as photographers before we should complain about technology. It's too easy today to be a photographer as it is.
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I think you took me out of context, but what I meant was on the Phase backs I own, I find skin tones and color rendition very exact, actually too exact. In other words if there is slight redness around a part of the face it picks it up to the point of enhancement.
(We have always fixed this in post and every image, still or motion, that has a decent dollar value to it goes through many rounds of post production, but on set, first frame, first impressions mean a lot).
It had nothing to do with shadow detail or anything dark as long as the iso of a p30+ doesn't go over 200. Past 200 I see some detail loss, but that's another topic.
Sorry if I "quoted you out of context". Your paragraph that mentioned "phase blotchy" was not very specific.
What you are talking about seems to me to be a bit like the difference between Velvia and Provia... some people think that Velvia is too vivid for portraits.
...but Hasselblads are know for vivid colour, and perhaps they might be considered OTT for portraiture... perhaps the "clarity" slider should be capable of being set to negative values to smooth skin!
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So you believe that Phase or their sales people would tell you if there was a problem, and I am a fool for taking note of what I read?
Dick here is the point you quote something from a Hassy exec that points something out that Phase can't do which has no formal proof or samples of the so called problem. But you have users that have not mentioned it or a user ME that owns a P40+ back and that shot the P65+ more times than I can count and i do not see any issues at all. Plus tested the P65 at least 3 times formally although some not published and i am supposed to believe the Hassy guy when I am sitting here staring at the files. Wow i think I may need better meds or something to understand this one. Feel like there is a tall fish story in here somewhere. LOL
Dick end of the day you believe whatever you want. Certainly within your right to believe the written word without questioning it.
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...you have users that have not mentioned it or a user ME that owns a P40+ back and that shot the P65+ more times than I can count and i do not see any issues at all. Plus tested the P65 at least 3 times formally...
Like I said, it will be interesting to do a side by side comparison and see if there are any noticeable differences...
The question is
"what photos do we take to see if there are any significant differences between 2 cameras with the same pixel count"
... I think that, to compare the digibacks, it would be best to put them on the back of the Sinar, with apo-digitars, but that would mean that the Hasselblad would loose the advantage of the phocus lens corrections.
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I have tested the P65 twice, and it has impressive range into the shadows, far better than my P45. It's a nice chip and I like it. This is a good advance by Phase, and you can buy it. If Hasselblad can soon do as well with this chip as Phase has over the past year or so, then they should have a winner, given their sharp lenses, geometric correction, focus that actually works and *usable* LCD.
Edmund
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Dick if your shooting with the Apo's you don't need Phocus lenses corrections that is for the Hassy H lenses. Best test is a cambo or other Tech camera with a high quality Apo lens and just switch rear mounts. Than again you would process Hassy in Phocus and Phase in C1 so still not apples to apples . Just like anything else the software is different . You can do some default stuff but again would be left to viewer discretion. I have done a lot of these tests between systems and they are not very easy to do and done in the most fair way. Last one was the S2 and P40+ with no profile worth a damn for the S2 and there still is not one. If you read the review you can see some of the S2 struggles in C1 and LR. Right now LR maybe better for it but it still needs tweaking. Both programs seriously over sharpen the files. These are tough test but again back to the P65+ seriously i don't know what came about on those comments but i have not seen anything that sticks out like mentioned. Big problem is Dick is knowing how to be really good at raw processing and that takes time and patience to really learn how to be really good at it. One reason i like doing things myself is i trust what I do or someone that I know is very very good at it.
I know we are very OT here but let me bring this back to the S2 it still does not have a great profile in C1 or a plugin for Lightroom that i would call on the money like say your h50 and Phocus and my P40+ and C1. It's still out there in left field looking for a home. The lenses are late to the market only 2 with a 35mm coming late this month and some on a wish list pretty far out. It's a nice system and i like it but it sat in the car for almost the whole workshop in the Salton Sea with one person playing around with it. Just no interest among the Phase shooters and Hassy shooters, not sure what to say about that but 30k sitting in my car does not say a lot for it in the minds of existing MF shooters. As nice and stylish as it maybe it needs to age fast before it becomes obsolete and Pentax is crawling right up there tail. Frankly I would not rule out anything coming it is the year of Photokinia and i am sure we will see some surprises. Yair just pointed out a new Brontax for example. This should be some interesting times ahead for US the end user. okay gotta run
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no profile worth a damn for the S2 and there still is not one.
RAW Developper supports the S2.
Too, there is a profile in LR (i.e. a "camera calibration" matrix).
Yair just pointed out a new Brontax
yeah, announced on April, 1st
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Hi Paul
In the 2 sets of images you linked are you saying all were taken with the S2 ?
More than a few look like a significantly wider lens than 70 mm on a cropped sensor was used.
Mark
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RAW Developper supports the S2.
Too, there is a profile in LR (i.e. a "camera calibration" matrix).
yeah, announced on April, 1st
Thanks Thomas i keep forgetting about Raw developer. My bad
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Hi Paul
In the 2 sets of images you linked are you saying all were taken with the S2 ?
More than a few look like a significantly wider lens than 70 mm on a cropped sensor was used.
Mark
The wides are with the M9 and 21 lens.
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Great photos, Paul. Thanks for sharing.
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. . . I find skin tones and color rendition very exact, actually too exact. In other words if there is slight redness around a part of the face it picks it up to the point of enhancement. . . .
This week we took a day to do some testing of Version 5 to see how it works for an upcoming project and I was more interested in the skin tone editor than anything. I noticed the skin tone presets takes some of the exactness of color away from the look, but mostly by just adding a warm global color which wasn't what I wanted to see.
This may possibly be of help - In the Color Editor (not the Skin Tone Tool you were using), select the Skin Tone Tab of the Color Editor (Basic-Advanced-Skin Tone); with the picker found in the Color Editor select an area of the skin; then adjust the Uniformity Slider. This does (sometimes) reduce the slight redness around parts of the face. Perhaps this could be a quick fix for viewing until you have a chance to do post work.
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Seriously, what's the best speed we can have with MFD today with the very best computers availables?
If my calculations are not wrong it is +- 60 frames/min + about 50sec to have all the frames, so we are talking about 2 minutes for 60 frames.
This is simply slow.
Fred.
So it is 4 minutes for 120 frames.
120 frames should be plenty to get the picture you need. If it is not.... then time to change profession.
Then again if 4 to 5 minutes is too long for getting 1 picture done, it is also time to change clients, environment, planet or life.
I keep reading on this forum, that clients are waiting impatiently for the images to pop up on the screen and even a wait longer than 10 sec is not acceptable.
This led to the question: What are these guys doing to their clients to put them on such a state?
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Like I said, it will be interesting to do a side by side comparison and see if there are any noticeable differences...
The question is
"what photos do we take to see if there are any significant differences between 2 cameras with the same pixel count"
... I think that, to compare the digibacks, it would be best to put them on the back of the Sinar, with apo-digitars, but that would mean that the Hasselblad would loose the advantage of the phocus lens corrections.
Dick,
This is a waste of time.
You will buy the Hassy whatever the results and keep claiming that it is the best thing since sliced bread, P65+ users will do the same, Leica S2 will keep believing in the superiority of their lenses while the new Pentax 645D owners will stay happy about the by far best price/quality ratio of their camera.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Paul,
Nice B&W.
Do you have full size samples to be seen somewhere?
Thank you.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Thanks for posting the beautiful photos, Paul. There seem to be quite a few fair-weather photographers posting in this thread.
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So it is 4 minutes for 120 frames.
120 frames should be plenty to get the picture you need. If it is not.... then time to change profession.
Then again if 4 to 5 minutes is too long for getting 1 picture done, it is also time to change clients, environment, planet or life.
I keep reading on this forum, that clients are waiting impatiently for the images to pop up on the screen and even a wait longer than 10 sec is not acceptable.
This led to the question: What are these guys doing to their clients to put them on such a state?
This is exactly what I'm thinking.
Agree 100% with all you just said, my concern about to wich point this "pressure" is acceptable, real and not part of an over-pressure from the profession itself.
MFD speed is enough,
IT is just slow compared to 35mm systems, but enough is.
Fred.
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It will be interesting to do a side by side comparison between the P65+ and the H4D-60 (and the Leica S2) and see if there are any noticeable differences...
Dick,
This is a waste of time.
You will buy the Hassy whatever the results and keep claiming that it is the best thing since sliced bread, P65+ users will do the same, Leica S2 will keep believing in the superiority of their lenses while the new Pentax 645D owners will stay happy about the by far best price/quality ratio of their camera.
Cheers,
Bernard
Thank you for your input, Bernard.
They might lend me a H4D-60 for the test, but I was thinking of doing the test when I have acquired my own.
As you have worked out, when I have bought an H4D-60, the results of the test are not likely to make me trade it in for a Phase!
And readers will conclude that I am biased in favor of the Hasselblad, so the Phase would need to be operated by someone who owns and appreciates one... could we find someone unbiased to write the summary?
It is difficult to make such a test useful, (even if there are significant differences between the cameras) for example for the few people who want their first MF system to be state of the art.
We would need to decide whether to compare digibacks or camera systems or what... I had envisaged comparing the 60 Mpx systems to 10*8 film and your pan-and-stitch technique, which I intend to use for some cylinder panoramas.
If we were to compare MF T/S cameras and Medium Format Digital View Cameras to large format cameras the results might be of interest to half a dozen LF users still thinking about switching to MFDVCs.
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... the new Pentax 645D owners will stay happy about the by far best price/quality ratio of their camera.
So far we've read a few things on the internet about price, but are there any owners yet, and what do we know about it's quality? How did you extrapolate a price/quality ratio from the available data? So far what I see it that the internet's reputation for accuracy is alive and well.
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So far we've read a few things on the internet about price, but are there any owners yet, and what do we know about it's quality? How did you extrapolate a price/quality ratio from the available data? So far what I see it that the internet's reputation for accuracy is alive and well.
I saw in the flesh prints made from it.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I saw in the flesh prints made from it.
How did you compare these prints with prints made with other cameras? Did you make side-by-side tests under controlled conditions?
IMHO it's premature to make any assumptions or come to any conclusions about equipment that nobody aside from the maker has been able to use.
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Doug little surprised to hear you say that when the S2 was the best thing in the world going still on paper and was supposed to smoke Hassy, Sinar, Phase, Leaf right out of the water . Please let's get real here, we heard that for over a year before anyone even looked at it. Never mind tested it outside Leica walls. We all heard it before my gun is bigger than your gun syndrome. The Pentax has some promise and has pretty much the same basic Kodak sensor as the S2 at a very low cost. Do we honestly think people are not going to compare at some level here to the S2. Pentax is well known for making very fine lenses and this is coming in at a price point that has people excited about it and frankly if it gets some folks off the 35mm/MF fence than it is good for the industry at large. People look at this as it will hurt Leica, Hassy, Phase and I believe it will actually help them as people will eventually move up to a more sophisticated system as they get into MF. I see the Pentax as a plus for the industry. Obviously that remains to be seen and certainly debatable but the Pentax has a good chance to make inroads. I have friends that are flying over to Japan to buy one on release.
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Thanks to some great efforting by David Farkas I was able to get 2 S2 bodies with 70, 180 lenses for a recent 4 day trip to Bologna. I took a M9 w 21 lux as backup.
The second day in Bologna they were hit with an huge snowstorm. Snow, sleet and driving rain for 3 days in a row- many of the people had never seen the city with that much snow in their lifetime. This was great because I had purchased the Leica system to use in rough conditions. Rather than having to put the MF system away at the first sign of bad weather I wanted to be able to shoot without worries (as I had with my Canon system) and take advantage of the great glass. So for 2 days in the sub 30 degree, rain, ice and snow I walked around with the S2 and M9 hanging unprotected on my shoulders. I wiped them off when I could not see thru the viewfinder and kept shooting.
you can see some of the images here:
B&W- http://www.thingsnotseen.com (http://www.thingsnotseen.com)
Color- http://www.thingshopedfor.com (http://www.thingshopedfor.com)
I will have a full report on the trip shortly on my Web site ( http://www.paultornaquindici.com (http://www.paultornaquindici.com) ) . Until then I would say the camera is truly elegant, easy to get to the right menu quickly, presets worked very well and made for simple easy use. Love the lenses. And best of all the ability to have that quality when shooting out in the elements is a real joy. Which was exactly what I had wanted the camera to do in the first place.
There is an image (the second- number 2 on http://www.thingsnotseen.com (http://www.thingsnotseen.com) ) that was shot handheld at 1/6 f4 at ISO 640 and it is one of my favorites.
PaulT
Paul,
Nice photos but if you bought a leica to shoot in that weather? You could do wet plate process in that weather. Snow looks to be almost a 1/2 inch! I realize Bologna doesn't get a lot of snow.......
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Doug little surprised to hear you say that when the S2 was the best thing in the world going still on paper and was supposed to smoke Hassy, Sinar, Phase, Leaf right out of the water
I never said it would smoke anything else. I do have experience with several of the Leica APO lenses that the S lenses are based on, so it's reasonable to expect similar performance.
The Pentax has some promise and has pretty much the same basic Kodak sensor as the S2 at a very low cost.
So let's see if they cut any corners anywhere in order to deliver this sensor at the reported retail price. The Pentax looks interesting, particularly if the existing lenses for the 645 film cameras perform well on this sensor... but except for one lens, the Pentax 645 lenses were designed in the film era, not for a digital sensor and as has been shown in many cases the digital sensor will expose flaws that film disguised.
Do we honestly think people are not going to compare at some level here to the S2. Pentax is well known for making very fine lenses and this is coming in at a price point that has people excited about it and frankly if it gets some folks off the 35mm/MF fence than it is good for the industry at large.
Yes Guy, I'm interested as well but let's see how it actually works before getting too excited. My comparisons of Leica APO lenses and Pentax lenses have show the Pentax lenses are good on film, but that the Leica APO lenses I've used are in another league.
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The tools we use are more than just about lenses, though. Good lenses are nice, but that is only one thing to evaluate a system on. Ergonomics, file quality, ease of use, support, etc etc etc are all things to look at. My hunch is that the Pentax system will be a good value, but the Leica will outperform it in the image quality department for many times the price. Horses for courses.
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Doug little surprised to hear you say that when the S2 was the best thing in the world going still on paper and was supposed to smoke Hassy, Sinar, Phase, Leaf right out of the water . Please let's get real here, we heard that for over a year before anyone even looked at it. Never mind tested it outside Leica walls. We all heard it before my gun is bigger than your gun syndrome. The Pentax has some promise and has pretty much the same basic Kodak sensor as the S2 at a very low cost. Do we honestly think people are not going to compare at some level here to the S2. Pentax is well known for making very fine lenses and this is coming in at a price point that has people excited about it and frankly if it gets some folks off the 35mm/MF fence than it is good for the industry at large. People look at this as it will hurt Leica, Hassy, Phase and I believe it will actually help them as people will eventually move up to a more sophisticated system as they get into MF. I see the Pentax as a plus for the industry. Obviously that remains to be seen and certainly debatable but the Pentax has a good chance to make inroads. I have friends that are flying over to Japan to buy one on release.
I think you made some valid points.
I think one of the keys to the success of the Pentax will be AF speed, accuracy and shutter lag.
We have already discussed on other threads that it does not matter if you have a 60mp sensor and a Leica or Zeiss lens on front of it, if the pic is not as sharp as the system could allow in the ideal conditions on a standing subject.
What all the current MF systems lack and it is the main reason why many of us are leaving them on the shelf and using the DSLR instead, is the precision of their AF when the subject is moving, even if just slowly.
Even the Leica, that I have found of having the best AF of all the MF system currently on the market, cannot make it next to an high end dslr on taking a photo of someone simply walking toward the camera. It is a very simple fact that if we use any of those MF taking a photo of someone moving, and I'm not talking about Usain Bolt, 80% of the shots will be worth 10mp at their best and sometime not even that.
IF the Pentax AF system is nearly as good as the one on their 1000$ DSLR, for many photographers it will not matter that it cannot mount a Leica, Zeiss or Fuji/Hasselblad lens. It would simply delivers usable images when the others could not.
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Actually The DF can on continuous and it works pretty dang good even with a 300mm 4.5 AF. I use it for runway projects a lot and it keeps up very nicely.
Now Doug I did not exactly say you said it can smoke the other MF systems but let's face it LUF forum is so incredible bias on Leica i almost can't read it anymore, actually stopped posting myself on that site it's like talking to a steel wall. The Red dot is like brain washing and the smoking of systems has been going on forever even Leica's marketing is saying it. LOL
What i see the Pentax doing for a low cost is getting folks a shot at MF for a good entry point. But it has a LONG way to go in respects to Hassy and Phase system wide, software wise and performance. Same issue for the S2 .
BTW Doug many folks are shooting old V glass and Zeiss glass for Contax in digital . Some maybe not cutting the cheese but a lot are and doing a fine job of it. Just look at the many Contax shooters bolting on Phase and leaf backs. The Mamiya 120mm macro was not designed for digital and one of the best macro out there in MF. So yes some lenses are not very good when they hit digital but some are still very very good as well.
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I use it for runway projects a lot and it keeps up very nicely.
You've mentioned this runway gig before and I'm not sure what shows your shooting with a phase/mamiya, but at the venues at the Louvre, Fiera and Bryant park, (and the smaller venues ) those guys and girls that work the risers are some very serious individuals and none of them would think about shooting anything that doesn't work at many frames a second, usually with a 1.3 or 1.5 cropped camera and one fast zoom lens, usually two bodies and lenses they can almost work simultaneously.
http://fashionism.ca/runway/fall_winter_2009/milan (http://fashionism.ca/runway/fall_winter_2009/milan)
In fact serious is a mild term for the intensity in the risers. Move one elbow into somebody's line of sight and you start missing body parts.
http://blogs.glam.com/glamchic/2008/02/04/...k-photographer/ (http://blogs.glam.com/glamchic/2008/02/04/qa-with-frazer-harrison-fashion-week-photographer/)
Now, before someone says, yea but that stuff is only shown in small web pages, or some flip book from the designer, that's not the case anymore.
Actually, to segway this into the NY Times thread on this forum, the runway photographs have for years taken the place of commissioned shoots of the designers seasonal collection for look books . . . to the point that those little 10 and 12 mpx images are often retouched repurposed and used for international advertising, in store (still and motion), packaging, tags, outdoor as well as all forms of editorial.
Don't think for a second if that bunch of photographers thought that an extra dozen or so megapixels would one up them from their competition, that they wouldn't be buying different cameras overnight.
Also remember they turn this stuff around as they go, usually uploading during the day and through the night. Doing one show is hard, dong 45 out of 80 is somewhere within the realm of playing 4 world cup soccer matches a day.
So, just a hint if you plan on working any of those shows, leave the Mamiya behind and invest the money in a new designer I-pad cover.
(http://cyanatrendland.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/ipad-cover-600x283.jpg)
That'll probably get you more attention.
BC
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You've mentioned this runway gig before and I'm not sure what shows your shooting with a phase/mamiya, but at the venues at the Louvre, Fiera and Bryant park, (and the smaller venues ) those guys and girls that work the risers are some very serious individuals and none of them would think about shooting anything that doesn't work at many frames a second, usually with a 1.3 or 1.5 cropped camera and one fast zoom lens, usually two bodies and lenses they can almost work simultaneously.
Actually, to segway this into the NY Times thread on this forum, the runway photographs have for years taken the place of commissioned shoots of the designers seasonal collection for look books . . . to the point that those little 10 and 12 mpx images are often retouched repurposed and used for international advertising, in store (still and motion), packaging, tags, outdoor as well as all forms of editorial.
BC
All that points are absolutely true.
A 1D MK 3 or 4 is a perfect tool.
Recently, I spoke with a well known fashion photographer that told me that it's been a long time now he only shoot Canon for all the reasons exposed here.
No hassle, responsive and does a more than usable output for campaigns in different mediums. I saw some big prints (heavily PP), they did look great.
When people in the studio knows how to, you can do a lot with these cropped sensors.
2) We were looking at his old website made with flash, and he asked me if I could design something that would work for Iphone, Ipad etc...
Adobe will release anyway a "flash" integrated with HP, and it means that flash is not dead yet, but there is a great concern about that and people want to display with this mediums now.
3) 3D will be IMHO the next step.
I've always liked much more the MF, but for a lot of applications, this is going to be (talking in the state of current gears) less and less used. I do not see any Pentax 645 D for these kind of works, neither a Leica S2.
Simply because megapixels is not the only parameter.
To be honest, I've been amazed how I could enlarge from Raw file a 12MP Pentax KX (entry level camera) file without practicaly no loosing IQ to 18MP-20MP at 300ppp.
No problem for catalogues, covers etc..These new sensors are really much better than what was available some years ago.
Fred.
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Thanks to some great efforting by David Farkas I was able to get 2 S2 bodies with 70, 180 lenses for a recent 4 day trip to Bologna. I took a M9 w 21 lux as backup.
The second day in Bologna they were hit with an huge snowstorm. Snow, sleet and driving rain for 3 days in a row- many of the people had never seen the city with that much snow in their lifetime. This was great because I had purchased the Leica system to use in rough conditions. Rather than having to put the MF system away at the first sign of bad weather I wanted to be able to shoot without worries (as I had with my Canon system) and take advantage of the great glass. So for 2 days in the sub 30 degree, rain, ice and snow I walked around with the S2 and M9 hanging unprotected on my shoulders. I wiped them off when I could not see thru the viewfinder and kept shooting.
you can see some of the images here:
B&W- http://www.thingsnotseen.com (http://www.thingsnotseen.com)
Color- http://www.thingshopedfor.com (http://www.thingshopedfor.com)
PaulT
Hi Paul, very nice images indeed but "huge snowstorm" it does not look like ;-) Guess all is relative.
Regarding bad weather, did you use the S2 unprotected under heavy rain? If yes, no issues at all, including with the lenses?
An important question would be how you like the 3:2 image format as compared to the "standard" MF 4:3 format. How did that work for you?
Thanks
Pascal
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Hi Paul, very nice images indeed but "huge snowstorm" it does not look like ;-) Guess all is relative.
Regarding bad weather, did you use the S2 unprotected under heavy rain? If yes, no issues at all, including with the lenses?
An important question would be how you like the 3:2 image format as compared to the "standard" MF 4:3 format. How did that work for you?
Thanks
Pascal
It was for them a huge snowstorm 8-10 inches of snow... funny to see people clearing the side walks with serving tray etc... Both the S2 and the M9 were UNPROTECTED hanging off my shoulder in cold driving rain and snow for 2 days. The M9 viewfinder got a bit hazy after moving indoors and back out... but I would just blow the water out of the finder and keep shooting. Lenses did well. The lenshoods kept the water off the glass.
Here's the view shooting the church scene in the color shots-
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An important question would be how you like the 3:2 image format as compared to the "standard" MF 4:3 format. How did that work for you?
Thanks
Pascal
[/quote]
Once I started shooting I never even thought about that... just framed in the viewfinder and kept moving.
I know there has been lots of "discussion" in the thread about this system or that... to ME... the key here was I was able to have MF quality in a weather sealed package. This is terrific. I treated the camera as I would my Canon 1Ds bodies and it worked fine.
We can talk for days about this format or that but try and take your H3 / Phase One out in the weather conditions I like- Antarctica, Iceland, Ireland, Amazon- and you will have to put them away!
(I owned H3 gear and switched to Phase One P65+ when I used the back in Antarctica for the first time on demo from Kevin Raber. I use the back on Alpa now and really love it... but I wouldn't walk under waterfalls or shoot for two days in the pouring rain with either my H3 or the P1 stuff... I always had to fall back to Canon gear. NOW that doesn't have to happen. It doesn't mean I wont be shooting P1 anymore..... As Michael always reminds us "Different horses for different courses")
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How did you compare these prints with prints made with other cameras? Did you make side-by-side tests under controlled conditions?
IMHO it's premature to make any assumptions or come to any conclusions about equipment that nobody aside from the maker has been able to use.
I don't believe that this is required to back up my initial statement.
Cheers,
Bernard
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You've mentioned this runway gig before and I'm not sure what shows your shooting with a phase/mamiya, but at the venues at the Louvre, Fiera and Bryant park, (and the smaller venues ) those guys and girls that work the risers are some very serious individuals and none of them would think about shooting anything that doesn't work at many frames a second, usually with a 1.3 or 1.5 cropped camera and one fast zoom lens, usually two bodies and lenses they can almost work simultaneously.
http://fashionism.ca/runway/fall_winter_2009/milan (http://fashionism.ca/runway/fall_winter_2009/milan)
In fact serious is a mild term for the intensity in the risers. Move one elbow into somebody's line of sight and you start missing body parts.
http://blogs.glam.com/glamchic/2008/02/04/...k-photographer/ (http://blogs.glam.com/glamchic/2008/02/04/qa-with-frazer-harrison-fashion-week-photographer/)
Now, before someone says, yea but that stuff is only shown in small web pages, or some flip book from the designer, that's not the case anymore.
Actually, to segway this into the NY Times thread on this forum, the runway photographs have for years taken the place of commissioned shoots of the designers seasonal collection for look books . . . to the point that those little 10 and 12 mpx images are often retouched repurposed and used for international advertising, in store (still and motion), packaging, tags, outdoor as well as all forms of editorial.
Don't think for a second if that bunch of photographers thought that an extra dozen or so megapixels would one up them from their competition, that they wouldn't be buying different cameras overnight.
Also remember they turn this stuff around as they go, usually uploading during the day and through the night. Doing one show is hard, dong 45 out of 80 is somewhere within the realm of playing 4 world cup soccer matches a day.
So, just a hint if you plan on working any of those shows, leave the Mamiya behind and invest the money in a new designer I-pad cover.
(http://cyanatrendland.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/ipad-cover-600x283.jpg)
That'll probably get you more attention.
BC
These are model and conventions that my wife produces . More kids trying to break into the business . Still they are moving just as fast and that is more the point as they get on stage they walk the T pretty much just as fast as any real fashion show. I'm using sensor plus since they do go on screen later in the evening so processing needs to be fast but not jpeg out of the camera fast. I have a few hours to get a show ready for the evening. Also the 300mm AF lens with DF and P40+ on a monopod. I do handheld but at different times but no longer than the 150mm. Now if i did this all the time than I would certainly go for a Canon or Nikon as it would serve me better in the long run. Point being I can get it done with my existing MF kit. Also I could really shoot about 20 frames per kid if I wanted to shoot that many. We are talking 1200 kids so I will shot the max 5 as that is all I really need. Also I don't need to knock someone on there ass to work either as these are closed conventions and whoever is shooting is controlled with video and still shooters. Basically I have control of the riser on who is on it and who is not. I did do a report on this with sensor plus which many folks pass off as some gimmick until they actually put it in practice or try it they would be quite surprised how useful it really is and fast. In this case the S2 would not only be a slow train to process with 70mg DNG's it would not do continuous focus either. Frankly I would not even attempt it. I have done these with the P25, P30 many times and reduced the output on processing but I used to bring a MacPro to these. With sensor plus I can just use the MBP instead. http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13379 (http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13379)
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I don't believe that this is required to back up my initial statement.
Believe what you wish to.
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Now Doug I did not exactly say you said it can smoke the other MF systems but let's face it LUF forum is so incredible bias on Leica i almost can't read it anymore, actually stopped posting myself on that site it's like talking to a steel wall. The Red dot is like brain washing and the smoking of systems has been going on forever even Leica's marketing is saying it. LOL
Guy what the S2 has that appeals to me is DSLR handling and weather sealing in a compact medium-format body, with competitive image quality. The dot could be hot pink for all I care.
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Guy what the S2 has that appeals to me is DSLR handling and weather sealing in a compact medium-format body, with competitive image quality. The dot could be hot pink for all I care.
I know exactly what you are after Doug and it does do that better than any MF system to date with a DSLR handling. That one I totally understand where you are coming from. What I found though and it depends if your going to like the balance is the body is light but the glass is a semi truck. The question for you and folks that shoot like you do is when are those long lenses coming or frankly any of the lenses promised. It's been real slow on that end and that bugs me. One lens per every 6 months it seems like on a brand new system makes me question WHY so long when they have had a lot of time from development, production to on the street which roughly 2 years or so is there only 2 out today with 35mm coming end of month. Now don't get me wrong I spent my time with the S2 and i liked it but what I don't like is it is not a full system yet either. Maybe it does not matter to some and I view things from a working pro perspective and from my seat not ready to jump on until I see a lot more of it. I do agree it has some things i wish other MF solutions had. I'm also tough on this system but I also want Leica to come through on it as well.
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I've been asking in another thread the MFD reliability in extreme weather conditions: http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=42240 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=42240)
Why the S2 would be more suitable for extreme conditions than the others?
Remember that the M9 does not claim weather seals.
As M.Reichmann said many times, we should not give that much credit to weather's marketing.
Fred.
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The weather sealing with the rubber gaskets slows and stiffens manual focusing on the S2 so that is the downside. Also in very extreme weather some Pro's will actually have the grease removed from the camera's and use a more suitable lubricant for this type of work but this is very extreme cold. I use a 29 cent 2 gallon zip lock bag in the rain, cut a hole for the lens shade a little gaffer tape and viola. Ugly as hell but works a charm. LOL
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The weather sealing with the rubber gaskets slows and stiffens manual focusing on the S2 so that is the downside. Also in very extreme weather some Pro's will actually have the grease removed from the camera's and use a more suitable lubricant for this type of work but this is very extreme cold. I use a 29 cent 2 gallon zip lock bag in the rain, cut a hole for the lens shade a little gaffer tape and viola. Ugly as hell but works a charm. LOL
Guy, do you have a pic of you working with this ugly home-made solution?
Fred.
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Actually i had a iphone shot of it and it was pretty funny. Truth be told I did use it on a project here in town when the Southwest was getting 4 or 5 days of solid rain. One of my clients supports these disaster relief projects and they asked me to shoot the floods. It was kind of fun but rained cats and dogs . Truly the only way to do it was some type of rain cover. It really worked good except the viewfinder was a little tough looking through a bag. LOL
End of day you gotta do what you gotta do. I think every Pro would say this is the majority of the work they do everyday is find solutions. I believe that is mainly our job no matter what field of photography we are always trying to solve things to get image to sensor.
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... The question for you and folks that shoot like you do is when are those long lenses coming or frankly any of the lenses promised...
Yup I don't need a whole lot of lenses but the lens I'd use most seems to exist only on paper (or, in ones and zeros) so far. Not sure what existing long lenses there are for the Pentax but an older lens available now trumps a diffraction-limited superachromat promised for some unknown date.
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You've mentioned this runway gig before and I'm not sure what shows your shooting with a phase/mamiya, but at the venues at the Louvre, Fiera and Bryant park, (and the smaller venues ) those guys and girls that work the risers are some very serious individuals and none of them would think about shooting anything that doesn't work at many frames a second, usually with a 1.3 or 1.5 cropped camera and one fast zoom lens, usually two bodies and lenses they can almost work simultaneously.
http://fashionism.ca/runway/fall_winter_2009/milan (http://fashionism.ca/runway/fall_winter_2009/milan)
In fact serious is a mild term for the intensity in the risers. Move one elbow into somebody's line of sight and you start missing body parts.
http://blogs.glam.com/glamchic/2008/02/04/...k-photographer/ (http://blogs.glam.com/glamchic/2008/02/04/qa-with-frazer-harrison-fashion-week-photographer/)
Now, before someone says, yea but that stuff is only shown in small web pages, or some flip book from the designer, that's not the case anymore.
Actually, to segway this into the NY Times thread on this forum, the runway photographs have for years taken the place of commissioned shoots of the designers seasonal collection for look books . . . to the point that those little 10 and 12 mpx images are often retouched repurposed and used for international advertising, in store (still and motion), packaging, tags, outdoor as well as all forms of editorial.
Don't think for a second if that bunch of photographers thought that an extra dozen or so megapixels would one up them from their competition, that they wouldn't be buying different cameras overnight.
Also remember they turn this stuff around as they go, usually uploading during the day and through the night. Doing one show is hard, dong 45 out of 80 is somewhere within the realm of playing 4 world cup soccer matches a day.
So, just a hint if you plan on working any of those shows, leave the Mamiya behind and invest the money in a new designer I-pad cover.
(http://cyanatrendland.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/ipad-cover-600x283.jpg)
That'll probably get you more attention.
BC
Yes, it appears to have become fashionable to use runway shots for a lot of things these days. Probably a combination of costs and the fact many parties seem to be doing this at the moment. Serious people that work very hard and are quite vicious to defend the spot they are on, that is needed for their signature shot. Kind of like sportsshooters and papperazzi. Most I have seen are using the white variations.
Personally I would not want to be doing this.
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Good to know the Leica does what it says on the box re weather proofing. Thanks for the information.