Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Digital Image Processing => Topic started by: JoeFletcher on March 30, 2010, 11:00:47 pm
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I'm so confused and disappointed in Adobe and I'm hoping that what I heard from them today isn't true.
Today I decided that I should buy Lightroom and upgrade my CS3 Creative Suite photoshop to photoshop CS4 ( I only use photoshop really ).
I purchased the full Lightroom and CS4 upgrade online.
Lightroom, no problem.
CS4 wouldn't install, so I call Adobe.
Adobe says, you need to buy the suite upgrade to upgrade your photoshop.
I remonstrate. They say ok, we can give you a work around, no serial #.
But what about then upgrading to CS5 I say.
They tell me that I couldn't upgrade to CS5 anyway.
Only owners of the full CS4 photoshop can buy the upgrade price to CS5, all others must purchase the full package.
I checked over and over with them on the phone that this was true.
Out of pure frustration I cancelled my upgrade and my purchase of lightroom.
So, does everyone else know that the CS5 upgrade is only available to owners of full CS4 not from upgrade?
Since when did Adobe become a corporate monster? I'm sad.
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Today I decided that I should buy Lightroom and upgrade my CS3 Creative Suite photoshop to photoshop CS4 ( I only use photoshop really ).
The Lightroom upgrade is no issue as you said...but...when you took the Creative Suite upgrade path you gave up your "point product" serial number and registration for a Creative Suite serial number and registration. You now have a serial number for Creative Suite CS3 which you WILL be able to upgrade to Creative Suite CS5 when it ships. But...apparently you no longer have a license (serial number) to just Photoshop?
This Photoshop (stand alone point product) to Creative Suite aspect of your license and serial number has bitten a bunch of folks. I won't defend Adobe and say the whole Creative Suite process has been without pain...but if you don't need the full Creative Suite (I use Illustrator, InDesign and Dreamweaver on a regular basis) you should never have gone the Creative Suite route and given up your Photoshop point product serial number and registration.
You will need to go for the whole Creative Suite CS5 when it ships...there will be way too many "Suites" that will end up shipping for CS5 when it ships to tell you what you should do (and what Suite to get)...but you will want to get your "Suite" situation straightened out regarding the Suite vs Photoshop...
Sorry you are having the issue, you aren't alone.
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This Photoshop (stand alone point product) to Creative Suite aspect of your license and serial number has bitten a bunch of folks. I won't defend Adobe and say the whole Creative Suite process has been without pain...but if you don't need the full Creative Suite (I use Illustrator, InDesign and Dreamweaver on a regular basis) you should never have gone the Creative Suite route and given up your Photoshop point product serial number and registration.
Sorry you are having the issue, you aren't alone.
Thank you Schewe!
I was vexed and couldn't get the simple clarity of explanation from Adobe that you've given; Much appreciated.
Pity Adobe didn't inform me when I ordered the CS3 suite that suite purchases required suite upgrades.
I always presumed that each product could be upgraded independently - as, I imagine, did so many others.
I feel they've been rather " strategically" vague on this point.
It's sad to feel at odds with a company that one spends so much time with their products.
Now I find myself, along with the thousands, hoping for a Photoshop competitor to keep them straight.
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I feel they've been rather " strategically" vague on this point.
Yes, I would agree...
However, the "deal" they offered–the ability to upgrade from a SINGLE point product to the entire Suite–was indeed a deal at the time.
And while you may not have noticed the "fine print" at the time that you upgraded from Photoshop to the Creative Suite, I'll have to say that hoodwinking the Photoshop user wasn't the primary motive–selling more Creative Suite upgrade was.
The fact that you don't find the other products in the Suite compelling (such as Illustrator, InDesign and Dreamweaver) enough to upgrade the entire Suite isn't entirely Adobe's fault–if you had ended up upgrading to something you didn't have a long term need for (because at the time it seemed like a deal).
Since you have Creative Suite 3, you aren't at risk of loosing the ability to upgrade for a while. Those people with Creative Suite 1 should be worried...CS5 will require at least CS2 or above to upgrade.
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The fact that you don't find the other products in the Suite compelling (such as Illustrator, InDesign and Dreamweaver) enough to upgrade the entire Suite isn't entirely Adobe's fault–if you had ended up upgrading to something you didn't have a long term need for (because at the time it seemed like a deal).
Since you have Creative Suite 3, you aren't at risk of loosing the ability to upgrade for a while. Those people with Creative Suite 1 should be worried...CS5 will require at least CS2 or above to upgrade.
Indeed good points Schewe.
However, Adobe is now charging the price for an upgrade that most software companies ask for the complete package.
I would have thought that with these high prices would come a professional flexibility to allow upgrading parts of the suites as the customer should wish, or afford.
I can't help but think that this type of policy is determined, because of their monopoly, not by what best serves their customers but just by profit.
Should a true photoshop competitor hit the market I suspect Adobe will find more people willing and wanting to jump ship than there would have been had they fostered better relationships with their customers.
I for one will be on the look out much more than I would have been for a photoshop alternative.
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Indeed good points Schewe.
However, Adobe is now charging the price for an upgrade that most software companies ask for the complete package.
I would have thought that with these high prices would come a professional flexibility to allow upgrading parts of the suites as the customer should wish, or afford.
I can't help but think that this type of policy is determined, because of their monopoly, not by what best serves their customers but just by profit.
Should a true photoshop competitor hit the market I suspect Adobe will find more people willing and wanting to jump ship than there would have been had they fostered better relationships with their customers.
I for one will be on the look out much more than I would have been for a photoshop alternative.
Well, the same goes for their worldwide pricing PS CS4 US = 699US = 520EUR - PS CS4 Germany = 899EUR = 1200US - Everything WITHOUT taxes. I can't name many products wich costs more than twice the amount in Germany than in the US, sorry but that alone is a reason to never buy a Adobe Product in Germany.
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Well, the same goes for their worldwide pricing PS CS4 US = 699US = 520EUR - PS CS4 Germany = 899EUR = 1200US - Everything WITHOUT taxes. I can't name many products wich costs more than twice the amount in Germany than in the US, sorry but that alone is a reason to never buy a Adobe Product in Germany.
Same problem in Belgium, 2 to 3x US prices !
They said that it's because of translation costs for Europe languages, but what about other countries in the world !
More, some people help them freely for translation in the beta phase.
Strange strategy.
Have a Nice Day.
Thierry
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I'm so confused and disappointed in Adobe and I'm hoping that what I heard from them today isn't true.
Today I decided that I should buy Lightroom and upgrade my CS3 Creative Suite photoshop to photoshop CS4 ( I only use photoshop really ).
I purchased the full Lightroom and CS4 upgrade online.
Lightroom, no problem.
CS4 wouldn't install, so I call Adobe.
Adobe says, you need to buy the suite upgrade to upgrade your photoshop.
I remonstrate. They say ok, we can give you a work around, no serial #.
But what about then upgrading to CS5 I say.
They tell me that I couldn't upgrade to CS5 anyway.
Only owners of the full CS4 photoshop can buy the upgrade price to CS5, all others must purchase the full package.
I checked over and over with them on the phone that this was true.
Out of pure frustration I cancelled my upgrade and my purchase of lightroom.
So, does everyone else know that the CS5 upgrade is only available to owners of full CS4 not from upgrade?
Since when did Adobe become a corporate monster? I'm sad.
I ran into this - owning Creative Suite makes you eligible for a creative suite upgrade and not for a stand-alone PS upgrade.
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I like the idea of finding a solid Photoshop competitor.
Can we start listing products which could be included in such a list?
Persio.
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There is no competition for Photoshop. Adobe can get away with questionable business behavior solely due to a lack of alternative products of equal quality. In some ways Adobe should be commended for continuing to create so many world class products.
Either way, the Creative Suite deal is raw. I’m guessing Adobe knows it too. They also know your options.
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This is in no way a defense of Adobe, but there are a couple of old adages in software purchasing: "you bundle at your peril" and "a suite deal's sweetest for the dealer."
Vive à la carte!
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Adobe can get away with questionable business behavior solely due to a lack of alternative products of equal quality.
What questionable business behavior?
While Adobe DID push Suite upgrades, they offered what was seen as a "deal' by the buyers of the Suite. Those people who took that route perhaps didn't pay too close attention to what the deal meant to their point purchase license...but those customers got exactly what they wanted, an upgrade to a Creative Suite which included a ton of software for a price much less than buying them outright.
Not sure what was questionable about that other than the fact they didn't promote the heck out of the fact an upgrade of any point product to the suite meant they now owned a Suite license not a point product license...
In point of fact Adobe bends over backwards to try to do the right thing whenever possible...you may not "like" some policies but it's not like they are trying to actually screw their customers...
Oh, and trying to find an alternative to Photoshop? You are kidding, right? Coral Photo Paint and GIMP come to mind...yeah, right, not really an alternative :~)
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Same problem in Belgium, 2 to 3x US prices !
They said that it's because of translation costs for Europe languages, but what about other countries in the world !
More, some people help them freely for translation in the beta phase.
Strange strategy.
Thierry,
You and many other educated Europeans have a good comprehension of English. What if you wanted to purchase an English version of an Adobe produce?
Regards,
Bill
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…You and many other educated Europeans have a good comprehension of English. What if you wanted to purchase an English version of an Adobe produce?
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Bill,
Usually, prices are about 10-15% less than the localized version…
To give you an idea of swiss prices (at the local store, prices include VAT):
Photoshop CS4 French: $1275
Photoshop CS4 German: $1195
Photoshop CS4 English: $950 (but out of stock)
For Lightroom, the english version is more expensive than the german but less than the french.
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Bill,
Usually, prices are about 10-15% less than the localized version…
The difference and saving can be > 20%.
Adobe Online Store Germany:
Photoshop CS4 German: Euro 1.010,31 incl. VAT
Photoshop CS4 English: Euro 799,68 incl. VAT
So without German VAT and due to a more balanced €/$= 1.35 the English version is about US$ 900.
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The difference and saving can be > 20%.
Adobe Online Store Germany:
Photoshop CS4 German: Euro 1.010,31 incl. VAT
Photoshop CS4 English: Euro 799,68 incl. VAT
So without German VAT and due to a more balanced €/$= 1.35 the English version is about US$ 900.
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The price differences are not uniform between countries and software languages. As I mentioned above, the english version Lightroom is more expensive in Switzerland than the german version, , go figure!
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The price differences are not uniform between countries and software languages.
I did not claim this.
As I mentioned above, the english version Lightroom is more expensive in Switzerland than the german version,
, go figure!
You might wish to check the Adobe Online Store rather than referring to any "local store".
For Switzerland (in CHF), the CS4 English version is still >20% less expensive than the German one.
And, Lightroom price is the same for the English and German version.
Go figure.
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I did not claim this.
I never said you claimed that, I just wanted to add this bit of information.
You might wish to check the Adobe Online Store rather than referring to any "local store".
For Switzerland (in CHF), the CS4 English version is still >20% less expensive than the German one.
And, Lightroom price is the same for the English and German version.
Go figure.
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Most of my customers like to deal with the local stores except when they buy huge quantities(100+) at once. Generally, I purchase my versions in the US.
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Well, it's simple enough for me. If Adobe expects me to pay for the entire suite upgrade, I'll never by another Photoshop product again. Will that kill Adobe? Of course not. But if enough of us make the same decision, maybe Adobe will hear.
I'm not a Pro. I can live with a simpler, less capable product.
Another option would be to look for remaindered old stock CS3 at bargain prices, buy that and then upgrade. But PhotoShop is already too expensive: buying it twice doesn't appeal. Is there a free upgrade if you purchase a prior version now?
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Another option would be to look for remaindered old stock CS3 at bargain prices, buy that and then upgrade. But PhotoShop is already too expensive: buying it twice doesn't appeal. Is there a free upgrade if you purchase a prior version now?
From Jeff Schewe in an answer to a different thread:
...However, AFTER April 12th, if you buy Photoshop CS4, you will get a free upgrade to CS5 (for the cost of shipping) and since Adobe has limited the backwards version upgrade to 3 versions, people who are currently using Photoshop CS will seriously want to upgrade to SC4 once the announce happens but BEFORE CS5 actually ships. Once CS5 actually ships, only Photoshop CS2 will be eligible for upgrade pricing.
So, if you can find a legal copy of CS4 at a discount price......
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Same problem in Belgium, 2 to 3x US prices !
They said that it's because of translation costs for Europe languages, but what about other countries in the world !
In Australia the non-upgrade cost is nearly $1000 more that the US price even taking into account the exchange rate and any local or import taxes. Yes, Australian(i.e. UK) english has some different spelling to US english but hardly $1000 worth. (the rest of the Adobe catalogue is in a similar position to varying degrees)
I'm yet to hear from anyone at Adobe that has justified the price differences between US and the rest of the world...especially when, in the case of the downloaded version, the only difference is my physical location when I purchase the serial number. It's borderline discrimination against non-US residents.
If there is valid justification then fine...but until then.....
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If there is valid justification then fine...but until then.....
I'm not too familiar with Australian economy, but localization is only one part of the higher prices in Europe, for example. Cost of doing business here is higher than in the US, as is taxation; US prices are quoted without taxes, and their VAT equivalent is lower.
Finally, Europeans are accustomed to paying more for everything.
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I'm not too familiar with Australian economy, but localization is only one part of the higher prices in Europe, for example. Cost of doing business here is higher than in the US, as is taxation; US prices are quoted without taxes, and their VAT equivalent is lower.
Finally, Europeans are accustomed to paying more for everything.
We have trade agreements with the US to try an avoid such things. That being said, everything here has 10% GST and depending on how it gets here (i.e. if it's a physical box that enters the country) it may or may not attract a 5% import duty as well.
By law, all sales prices displayed in Australia is the final price and includes all relevant taxes...so
The quoted Adobe price for just Photoshop CS5 (not the suite) is AU$1168 which converts to US$1083.03 at the current exchange rate
If I were in New York I would pay $699 + 8.875% = US$761
$322 more...or nearly AU$350
If you want to buy one of the creative suites it gets worse
If for some reason you wanted the master collection, our US friends can get it for US$2599+tax = US$2829 (picking NY tax again)
In Australia it's AU$4344...or US$4027......US$1198 more
How the hell is that justified?....I doesn't cost $1200 per copy extra just to sell it in Australia. The $1200 extra goes straight to Adobe.
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How the hell is that justified?....I doesn't cost $1200 per copy extra just to sell it in Australia. The $1200 extra goes straight to Adobe.
It's pricing, it has nothing to do with concepts just as "justified" or "fair." If a company can wring more revenue/profit/market share/whatever they're after by exploiting a certain price point, they'll do it. And they should.
I'm not trying to justify anything or defend anyone, just trying to explain basics of pricing. But much of it has to do with cost of doing business in a country, which in turn has very little to do with exchange rates - and is certainly not as volatile as exchange rates.
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It's pricing, it has nothing to do with concepts just as "justified" or "fair." If a company can wring more revenue/profit/market share/whatever they're after by exploiting a certain price point, they'll do it. And they should.
I'm not trying to justify anything or defend anyone, just trying to explain basics of pricing. But much of it has to do with cost of doing business in a country, which in turn has very little to do with exchange rates - and is certainly not as volatile as exchange rates.
well, they can "justify" it by saying "this is a result of what it costs to do business in Australia" or whatever the case may be.
Whatever the reason is though it seems to only affect Adobe. Everyone else seems to be able to do business and sell software here for little more than the difference in currency exchange (usually padded up a bit to counter exchange rate fluctuation).
The point being, no-one at Adobe has ever given reasonable justification as to why their software cost so much more outside the US...even if that justification is "because we want to charge you more".
It's not what they charge...it's how they charge differently in different markets that bugs me. The beauty of trade agreements with the US and parallel import laws means I can buy a copy from B&H and have it shipped here so ultimately it doesn't make a difference...I'll end up buying it the cheapest way I can legally (presuming I can convince myself it's worth it...currently on CS3 so probably will but time and reviews will tell).
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well, they can "justify" it by saying "this is a result of what it costs to do business in Australia" or whatever the case may be.
Whatever the reason is though it seems to only affect Adobe. Everyone else seems to be able to do business and sell software here for little more than the difference in currency exchange (usually padded up a bit to counter exchange rate fluctuation).
The point being, no-one at Adobe has ever given reasonable justification as to why their software cost so much more outside the US...even if that justification is "because we want to charge you more".
It's not what they charge...it's how they charge differently in different markets that bugs me. The beauty of trade agreements with the US and parallel import laws means I can buy a copy from B&H and have it shipped here so ultimately it doesn't make a difference...I'll end up buying it the cheapest way I can legally (presuming I can convince myself it's worth it...currently on CS3 so probably will but time and reviews will tell).
I'm not sure I understand the problem here. Are you claiming that no supplier of Adobe Photoshop is allowed to ship the product overseas? Out of curiosity I've just done an internet check on the best price for a CS4 upgrade (I'm still using CS3) and found that Amazon is currently selling it for $199. I didn't buy it because CS5 will soon be available. However, when CS5 is available, I'll be shopping around for the best price.
I frequently buy stuff from Amazon, mostly Blu-ray discs. We live in a competitive and international economy, don't we?
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I frequently buy stuff from Amazon, mostly Blu-ray discs. We live in a competitive and international economy, don't we?
We very clearly don't, but whether it is a good or bad thing is a complex question.
Cheers,
Bernard
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We very clearly don't, but whether it is a good or bad thing is a complex question.
Cheers,
Bernard
Really! I get the impression that, in Australia, I live in a competitive economy. There are always anti-competitive practices that some industries try to put in place, and there is always room for improvement. Illegal practices of price rigging, price fixing and so on can be a problem in some areas, but generally I find that the choices of retailers in Australia, through the internet, are wide-ranging and vast.
If I find an overseas supplier who is prepared to sell a product I'm interested in at a significantly lower price than I can find in Australia, I'll calculate the additional cost of freight and GST if applicable, and buy the product from that overseas seller if the delivered price is lower than the best price I can find in Australia.
Almost invariably I find that books and prerecorded Blu-ray discs are cheaper from Amazon, even including the cost of the postage from overseas. Not only that, I get the stuff delivered to my letter box with no hassles, unless it's a large parcel which requires collection from the local post office.
However, perhaps it needs to be said that we are a pragmatic people in Australia. We don't waste everyone's time with inefficient administrative practices collecting small amounts of tax on items imported for personal use. Generally, if an imported item, including freight costs, is less than A$500, there will be no GST applied. If the value of the imported item is more than $500, then a 10% GST will apply, plus a small administrative charge.
The region coding of DVD and Blu-ray movies is a fine example of a wide-ranging anti-competitive practice. Fortunately, one can get around this by buying a region-free player. I would hope that the upgrade cost of Photoshop CS5 will be less than A$500 so that I will get it free of GST should I find it advantageous to buy the upgrade from an overseas supplier.
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Generally, if an imported item, including freight costs, is less than A$500, there will be no GST applied. If the value of the imported item is more than $500, then a 10% GST will apply, plus a small administrative charge.
Australia is pretty good with parallel imports etc.
Although a minor correction in your post. The most you will get charged on any import item (apart from shipping costs) is 10% GST + 5% import duty, both of which are at the digression of the Customs officer (unless you ship via UPS because they are jerks and "always" apply both...I much prefer USPS and they are rarely slower than UPS anyway).
Secondly, the limit is now $1000. Up to about $1200-$1300 it will be 50/50 if you get hit with GST and above that it's pretty much a sure thing. Anything under $1000 can be brought in with no GST or duty charges though. It used to be $500, but no more.
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Secondly, the limit is now $1000. Up to about $1200-$1300 it will be 50/50 if you get hit with GST and above that it's pretty much a sure thing. Anything under $1000 can be brought in with no GST or duty charges though. It used to be $500, but no more.
Thanks for the correction. What's your complaint?