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Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Colour Management => Topic started by: Studio2bn on March 04, 2010, 11:13:19 am

Title: Now for the Bonus round question ! i1xtreme UV or NON UV system & why ?
Post by: Studio2bn on March 04, 2010, 11:13:19 am
Thanks for all the help....I am going with the i1xtreme....But......do I go with the UV filtered model or the NON UV Filtered model ??? I have researched and researched and can't seem to find any true benefits for picking one over the other...

Please share any info you have and "Why" one would be of more of a benefit than the other....


Thanks again for your time and help,

J Michael

Studio2bn@cox.net
Title: Now for the Bonus round question ! i1xtreme UV or NON UV system & why ?
Post by: probep on March 04, 2010, 11:25:25 am
Quote from: Studio2bn
Thanks for all the help....I am going with the i1xtreme....But......do I go with the UV filtered model or the NON UV Filtered model ??? I have researched and researched and can't seem to find any true benefits for picking one over the other...
Both or use papers without OBA!
Or Welcome to the great UV debate!
There are many-many articles, documents and debates about it.
For example, look at http://lists.apple.com/archives/Colorsync-...y/msg00147.html (http://lists.apple.com/archives/Colorsync-users/2007/May/msg00147.html)
Title: Now for the Bonus round question ! i1xtreme UV or NON UV system & why ?
Post by: Studio2bn on March 04, 2010, 11:44:41 am
Quote from: probep
Both or use papers without OBA!
Or Welcome to the great UV debate!
There are many-many articles, documents and debates about it.
For example, look at http://lists.apple.com/archives/Colorsync-...y/msg00147.html (http://lists.apple.com/archives/Colorsync-users/2007/May/msg00147.html)


Thanks for the article.....I had read another short article that stated that the NON UV system had a built in factor that compensated for the Optical Brightners anyway.....why couldn't they just put a "Removable Filter" on the system....but that would make too much sense !!!

Thanks for your time and help,

J Michael
Title: Now for the Bonus round question ! i1xtreme UV or NON UV system & why ?
Post by: probep on March 04, 2010, 12:12:14 pm
Quote from: Studio2bn
I had read another short article that stated that the NON UV system had a built in factor that compensated for the Optical Brightners anyway.....
Yes, but...
1. There are many profile builders that don't have OBA compensation option;
2. Some profile builders (X-Rite/GretagMacbeth ProfileMaker, for example) have "Correct for Optical Brightener" option, but it works ONLY for Perceptual Rendering Intent;
3. It's impossible to emulate UV-excluded spectrophotometer with UV-include spectrophotometer with some degree of certainty. For example, look at http://www.freelists.org/post/argyllcms/Us...e-FWA-content,9 (http://www.freelists.org/post/argyllcms/Using-an-i1-to-measure-FWA-content,9)
4. Professional devices (iSis for example) use both modes (UV-excluded and UV-included). See http://www.colorwiki.com/wiki/Optical_Brig..._2_-_X-Rite_OBC (http://www.colorwiki.com/wiki/Optical_Brighteners_2_-_X-Rite_OBC)
Title: Now for the Bonus round question ! i1xtreme UV or NON UV system & why ?
Post by: Studio2bn on March 04, 2010, 12:39:44 pm
Quote from: Nick Walker
I have been using Eye One spectro's for nearly 9 years. I put the same question to a senior member of the Gretag Macbeth team in Switzerland - approximately 5  years ago. They recommended sticking with the non UV type (a UV type was available), stating that the latest version of Eye One Match software automatically compensated for papers with optical brighteners.  

This advice was good enough for me as it was straight from the horse's mouth.

Nick...

That is about what I read in an article ( Brain fade) somewhere....The confusion comes in when I find blogs that were written in 2004/2005 !!! I had seen the statement that the newer models of the i1Pro/software "Do" have the ability to compensate for the OB's in papers where the older ones did not.....I was just in hopes of finding some of you guys who have been in the trenches with this product and knew the ins and outs of the best system ......

Looks like it's NON UV 2....UV  O so far.....any other feed back from other users would be very much appreciated......

Thanks....

J Michael
PS.....Now, could anyone recommend a descent inexpensive Scotch to go with the Brain Fry research !!!!!!!
Title: Now for the Bonus round question ! i1xtreme UV or NON UV system & why ?
Post by: probep on March 04, 2010, 12:53:52 pm
Quote from: Studio2bn
That is about what I read in an article ( Brain fade) somewhere....
Maybe in http://www.xrite.com/product_overview.aspx...;SupportID=3511 (http://www.xrite.com/product_overview.aspx?ID=1238&Action=support&SupportID=3511) ?

Nick Walker
Quote
the latest version of Eye One Match software automatically compensated for papers with optical brighteners
Ha-ha. If so and if you use Eye-one Match, what is the reason to buy i1Pro (without UV filter)?

I have an i1Pro and an i1Pro UVcut. i1Pro (without UV filter) never replace i1Pro UVcut. And vice versa. But usually I use an i1Pro (without UV filter).
Title: Now for the Bonus round question ! i1xtreme UV or NON UV system & why ?
Post by: englishm on March 04, 2010, 12:55:05 pm
Quote from: Studio2bn
PS.....Now, could anyone recommended a descent inexpensive Scotch to go with the Brain Fry research !!!!!!!

"Decent" and "Inexpensive" in the same sentence as [ single malt] Scotch is almost an oxymoron.

I'm partial to those from Islay:  Laphroaig Quarter Cask is a favourite, also  Lagavulin 16 year.  Aberlour 10 year, while not from Islay has to be among the quality vs cost winners
Title: Now for the Bonus round question ! i1xtreme UV or NON UV system & why ?
Post by: Studio2bn on March 04, 2010, 02:33:48 pm
Quote from: probep
Maybe in http://www.xrite.com/product_overview.aspx...;SupportID=3511 (http://www.xrite.com/product_overview.aspx?ID=1238&Action=support&SupportID=3511) ?

Nick Walker

Ha-ha. If so and if you use Eye-one Match, what is the reason to buy i1Pro (without UV filter)?

I have an i1Pro and an i1Pro UVcut. i1Pro (without UV filter) never replace i1Pro UVcut. And vice versa. But usually I use an i1Pro (without UV filter).
No, all I have now is Spectraview II.....that's it....but I wanted a system that I could color balance throughout my workflow....printer, scanner, etc.....

J Michael
Title: Now for the Bonus round question ! i1xtreme UV or NON UV system & why ?
Post by: Studio2bn on March 04, 2010, 02:36:29 pm
Quote from: englishm
"Decent" and "Inexpensive" in the same sentence as [ single malt] Scotch is almost an oxymoron.

I'm partial to those from Islay:  Laphroaig Quarter Cask is a favourite, also  Lagavulin 16 year.  Aberlour 10 year, while not from Islay has to be among the quality vs cost winners


Yea....I figured anything under $ 50.00 inexpensive....Do you happen to have any samples you could send me !!! Just a fifth of each will suffice ......at least for this week !!!
Title: Now for the Bonus round question ! i1xtreme UV or NON UV system & why ?
Post by: na goodman on March 04, 2010, 07:24:11 pm
This is what I was told by xrite when I was making the same decision. If you ever think you are going to print using a rip than you should get the UV one. If you don't use a rip now and don't think you will be using one in the future than get the one without UV. i1match software will compensate automatically for OBA's in the paper. Again, if you think you will ever use a rip get the UV one.


Title: Now for the Bonus round question ! i1xtreme UV or NON UV system & why ?
Post by: probep on March 05, 2010, 09:06:33 am
Quote from: na goodman
i1match software will compensate automatically for OBA's in the paper.
I don't uderstand this statement. If "i1match software will compensate automatically for OBA's in the paper" - it's noncense. (once more again) what is the reason to buy i1Pro? If i1Pro "compensate automatically" -  i1Pro UVcut do "compensate" in reality.

i1Pro NEVER replace i1Pro UVcut.
Title: Now for the Bonus round question ! i1xtreme UV or NON UV system & why ?
Post by: bradleygibson on March 05, 2010, 10:33:59 am
Quote from: probep
I don't uderstand this statement. If "i1match software will compensate automatically for OBA's in the paper" - it's noncense. (once more again) what is the reason to buy i1Pro? If i1Pro "compensate automatically -  i1Pro UVcut do "compensate" in reality.

i1Pro NEVER replace i1Pro UVcut.

I'm confused--didn't you who provide the link to x-rite?  Here is what they say:

From X-Rite: "UV brighteners in paper can "fool" the spectrophotometer and result in profiles that look too yellowish.

There are two ways to compensate for UV brighteners and get a normal-looking profile. One is to attach a UV filter to the spectrophotometer. The i1, DTP41, DTP45, and Pulse spectrophotometers are available with a UV filter, but they must be ordered with this feature and cannot be changed by the user. The Spectrolino spectrophotometer has an accessory UV filter that can be changed by the user. The DTP70 and iSis both have user switchable UV options.

The second way of compensating for UV brighteners is to use a profiling program with built-in compensation. Both ProfileMaker 4 and later and i1Match 2 and above include software compensation for UV brighteners. With these programs it is not necessary to use a UV filter."


According to this, it would seem that the i1Pro could replace the i1Pro UVcut, if the profiling software you are using is able to recognize the signature of OBA papers and compensate for it.  When using the instrument with RIPs and with other software that is not able to compensate, one must use the UVcut device for proper results (option 1, above).

Seems like a good, clear answer to me--thanks for the link!

Is there another reason why you feel the i1Pro shouldn't replace the i1Pro UVcut?

-Brad
Title: Now for the Bonus round question ! i1xtreme UV or NON UV system & why ?
Post by: Studio2bn on March 05, 2010, 11:16:24 am
Quote from: bradleygibson
I'm confused--didn't you who provide the link to x-rite?  Here is what they say:

From X-Rite: "UV brighteners in paper can "fool" the spectrophotometer and result in profiles that look too yellowish.

There are two ways to compensate for UV brighteners and get a normal-looking profile. One is to attach a UV filter to the spectrophotometer. The i1, DTP41, DTP45, and Pulse spectrophotometers are available with a UV filter, but they must be ordered with this feature and cannot be changed by the user. The Spectrolino spectrophotometer has an accessory UV filter that can be changed by the user. The DTP70 and iSis both have user switchable UV options.

The second way of compensating for UV brighteners is to use a profiling program with built-in compensation. Both ProfileMaker 4 and later and i1Match 2 and above include software compensation for UV brighteners. With these programs it is not necessary to use a UV filter."


According to this, it would seem that the i1Pro could replace the i1Pro UVcut, if the profiling software you are using is able to recognize the signature of OBA papers and compensate for it.  When using the instrument with RIPs and with other software that is not able to compensate, one must use the UVcut device for proper results (option 1, above).

Seems like a good, clear answer to me--thanks for the link!

Is there another reason why you feel the i1Pro shouldn't replace the i1Pro UVcut?


Firstly, I appreciate all the help everyone has contributed......

Probep...didn't you send me a link that stated something totally different ? I Looked back and re-read the link that was sent and now I think I am hearing the reverse of what the link stated......Do I need to get my Medications adjusted !!! I have gone back over some of the responses and see several contradications.........This is why I have been so confused about which system to buy.....I have been told that if I use a RIP that I would need to get the i1Xtreme "WITH" the UV Filter.....if I "Was Not" planning on using a RIP to go with the NON UV model ......


The only thing I have now is the Spectraview II that I bought with my NEC 2690wuxi.....which as I stated works very well, but will only calibrate my monitor....I just wanted to be able to hopefully get my printer, scanner etc in line calibrated with my monitor.......So....now we are back to which "i1xtreme" works better "Without a RIP "........I can't afford a RIP system and the i1xtreme......So, is there an answer here somewhere amongst all the confusion and contradiction !!!

Thanks
J Michael

Now, I am headed to the liquor store......I know they have an answer !!!

(Not really....I don't drink )



-Brad
Title: Now for the Bonus round question ! i1xtreme UV or NON UV system & why ?
Post by: bradleygibson on March 06, 2010, 12:23:49 am
All this assumes of course, that you'll be using papers with optical brighteners:

Simple answer - just ask if the *software* you'll be using to make profiles can compensate for OBA's.  If it can, get the i1Pro. Otherwise, go with the i1Pro with UVCut.
Title: Now for the Bonus round question ! i1xtreme UV or NON UV system & why ?
Post by: shewhorn on March 10, 2010, 08:43:46 am
I recently (about 3 weeks ago) posed the UV cut vs. non UV cut question to X-Rite, asked about why the options were there, etc... This is the story as it was told to me...  The i1 Pro is originally a Gretag MacBeth product and they chose to do UV compensation in software. When X-Rite bought them they had a different philosophy... they wanted to filter out the UV before it got to the sensor and not rely on software to do that (although I have to say I seem to remember a UV cut option being there prior to the GMB getting bought by X-Rite... (shrug)) so the UV Cut option was born. Of course the software still had to support the existing i1 Pros out there so the option still had to be present in the software.

Now... the problem is if you profile a paper with OBAs without a UV filter, the UV can potentially throw off the profile so the UV filter is a necessary thing (be it a physical filter, or a digital one). I then asked "What will happen if I profile a paper WITHOUT OBAs using a puck that has a physical filter?". In this case there is no UV content so there's nothing to filter. The end result is the same as if there was no filter there. That said I decided to go with a puck that had the UV cut and so far I haven't noticed any issues profiling non OBA paper such as Hahnemuhle German Etching. When I profile papers like Epson Exhibition Fiber the UV filter is of course already there.

Now... that filter IS of course a physical filter and any addition of an element is going to impart some kind of distortion. In this case I don't believe it's as critical as we aren't concerned about things like sharpness so the question then would be, is the physical UV cut filter detrimental to any part of the process when it is not needed? I believe the answer is no.

If there is anyone in the Boston, MA area with an i1 Pro without the UV cut filter, get in touch with me. I'd love to do a side by side comparison.

Cheers, Joe
Title: Now for the Bonus round question ! i1xtreme UV or NON UV system & why ?
Post by: digitaldog on March 10, 2010, 09:20:36 am
I’d agree with the fellow in Switzerland and go non UV. There are a lot of issues too with UV filtration in a unit in a general sense. Is the light source in the Spectrophotometer anything like the light source illuminating the print?

Yesterday I did some testing with an iSis (which allows both measurements, and idea situation) using Premium Luster. A UV and non UV profile produce very similar results viewed in a GTI booth. I also did some work a year ago, again with the iSis profiling a digital press that had a very high OBA content (think a b*of -6)! Again, the results were preferable with the no cut measurements in PROFILER (which has no UV compensation when building profiles).

The best solution is having an on and off switch or removable filter like my very old Spectrolino. If you have to stick with one, go non UV.
Title: Now for the Bonus round question ! i1xtreme UV or NON UV system & why ?
Post by: Ernst Dinkla on March 10, 2010, 09:55:25 am
Quote from: probep
Yes, but...
1. There are many profile builders that don't have OBA compensation option;
2. Some profile builders (X-Rite/GretagMacbeth ProfileMaker, for example) have "Correct for Optical Brightener" option, but it works ONLY for Perceptual Rendering Intent;
3. It's impossible to emulate UV-excluded spectrophotometer with UV-include spectrophotometer with some degree of certainty. For example, look at http://www.freelists.org/post/argyllcms/Us...e-FWA-content,9 (http://www.freelists.org/post/argyllcms/Using-an-i1-to-measure-FWA-content,9)
4. Professional devices (iSis for example) use both modes (UV-excluded and UV-included). See http://www.colorwiki.com/wiki/Optical_Brig..._2_-_X-Rite_OBC (http://www.colorwiki.com/wiki/Optical_Brighteners_2_-_X-Rite_OBC)

Graeme Gill of ArgyllCMS still thinks that starting from a UV included model gives the most universal approach. ArgyllCMS can compensate the UV component in the profile creation to get a UV cut based profile. That is the opposite of the method above and in my opinion the better one. His argument is that if you create a profile with a UV cut spectrometer you also have to assure that the viewing conditions later on are not lit by any UV light sources.

http://www.freelists.org/post/argyllcms/Ey...v-filter-or-not (http://www.freelists.org/post/argyllcms/Eyeone-pro-Uv-filter-or-not)

If one uses papers with OBA (FWA) content and the spectrometer has a UV cut filter then there is already some inconsistency in the workflow. Either one selects the paper with optical brighteners to get that extra (bluish) white reflectance and profile accordingly with UV or one selects papers without OBA and then the spectrometer with a UV cut filter doesn't do a better job than the one without a UV cut filter. An analogy is in selecting OBA containing papers and frame them behind normal glass, the glass cuts out most of the UV light that should create the OBA effect.

As I understand there are also two methods of UV filter cut. A UV cut filter on the lamp and a UV cut filter on the sensor. There's a difference as the second one should still measure the OBA effect to a degree but isn't influenced by reflecting UV light. I could be wrong on this but I have a vague memory of a discussion on the Colorsync list. Led lamps in Spectrometers and colorimeters will usually fall in the first category as the selected lightsource(s) doesn't have a UV component.

On the HP Z models that I have the spectrometers have a UV cut filter. For me another good reason to get an Eye 1 Basic without the filter.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/)







Title: Now for the Bonus round question ! i1xtreme UV or NON UV system & why ?
Post by: probep on March 10, 2010, 10:02:31 am
Some specialists prefer a spectrophotometer without UV filter, some - with UV filter (Eric Chan, for example   ).
Spectrolinos are not produced now.
Title: Now for the Bonus round question ! i1xtreme UV or NON UV system & why ?
Post by: probep on March 10, 2010, 10:11:09 am
Quote from: Ernst Dinkla
Graeme Gill of ArgyllCMS still thinks that starting from a UV included model gives the most universal approach. ArgyllCMS can compensate the UV component in the profile creation to get a UV cut based profile. That is the opposite of the method above and in my opinion the better one. His argument is that if you create a profile with a UV cut spectrometer you also have to assure that the viewing conditions later on are not lit by any UV light sources.
Sorry, did you read http://www.freelists.org/post/argyllcms/Us...e-FWA-content,9 (http://www.freelists.org/post/argyllcms/Using-an-i1-to-measure-FWA-content,9) ?
I do confirm that it's imposible to emulate i1Pro UVcut thoroughly.
Title: Now for the Bonus round question ! i1xtreme UV or NON UV system & why ?
Post by: Scott Martin on March 10, 2010, 10:15:35 am
Quote
Yesterday I did some testing with an iSis (which allows both measurements, and idea situation) using Premium Luster. A UV and non UV profile produce very similar results viewed in a GTI booth. I also did some work a year ago, again with the iSis profiling a digital press that had a very high OBA content (think a b*of -6)! Again, the results were preferable with the no cut measurements in PROFILER (which has no UV compensation when building profiles)
If we expand the range of experience to include a variety of RIPs, PROFILER's linearization process, and a broader range profiling applications and printers (solvent, UV curable, silver halide, dye-sub, etc) you'll start to see more reasons to have one or the other. Many linearization applications produce better results when a UV filtered (or UVex) device is used. I travel around the country (and occasionally outside) with a case full of spectros (capable of UVin or UVex measurements) helping demanding clients with color management and workflow issues. I work with a huge variety of printers and software applications - practically everything on the market.  I find practical, real-world reasons to use UVex over UVin measurements most of the time. Sometimes you've got to ignore the theory and do some side-by-side comparisons and let the results speak for themselves. Even some papers without OBAs, like metallic silver halide papers for example, linearize and profile better with UVex measurements. On the other hand, some toner based processes linearize and profile better with a UVin measurements. Some software applications currently use UVin compensation while others don't and that dictates what device one should use. In addition, we're about to see a whole new generation of pro level profiling software that could change the way we think about UVin or UVex measurements.

So I think it's important to ask what printing processes and software applications one will be using in order to recommend one or the other as the answers will likely point toward one or the other. For those that can afford it, the iSis with the OBC kit is clearly the most versatile choice at this time, if you don't need to measure super thick materials that it can't handle.
Title: Now for the Bonus round question ! i1xtreme UV or NON UV system & why ?
Post by: shewhorn on March 10, 2010, 10:31:48 am
Quote from: Onsight
So I think it's important to ask what printing processes and software applications one will be using in order to recommend one or the other as the answers will likely point toward one or the other. For those that can afford it, the iSis with the OBC kit is clearly the most versatile choice at this time, if you don't need to measure super thick materials that it can't handle.

Interesting. If you narrow the application down to just large format inkjet printing (Canon IPFx100, and now the x300... Epson x900, etc.) what has your experience been with regards to hardware vs. software UV filtration (using papers both with an without OBAs)?

Cheers, Joe
Title: Now for the Bonus round question ! i1xtreme UV or NON UV system & why ?
Post by: Scott Martin on March 10, 2010, 10:41:03 am
Quote from: shewhorn
Interesting. If you narrow the application down to just large format inkjet printing (Canon IPFx100, and now the x300... Epson x900, etc.) what has your experience been with regards to hardware vs. software UV filtration (using papers both with an without OBAs)?
Are you just profiling with driver usage? If so, with which software? Or are you using a RIP, and if so, which one?
Title: Now for the Bonus round question ! i1xtreme UV or NON UV system & why ?
Post by: Scott Martin on March 10, 2010, 10:47:14 am
And are you printing fine art work for "pleasing color" or are you involved with any spot color matching? Are you trying to get gorgeous prints that everyone falls in love with or are you trying to hit "Coca Cola Red" for example, for clients?
Title: Now for the Bonus round question ! i1xtreme UV or NON UV system & why ?
Post by: shewhorn on March 10, 2010, 11:14:52 am
Quote
Are you just profiling with driver usage? If so, with which software? Or are you using a RIP, and if so, which one?

and...

Quote from: Onsight
And are you printing fine art work for "pleasing color" or are you involved with any spot color matching? Are you trying to get gorgeous prints that everyone falls in love with or are you trying to hit "Coca Cola Red" for example, for clients?

Manufacturer's drivers (Epson and Canon drivers, no RIP (it would seem to me that the general consensus is that the manufacturing tolerances and consistency of large format printers from unit to unit is good enough now that as far as fine art prints are concerned there's no real advantage to using  RIP although experience has taught me that as I gain experience I'm able to see differences that I previously wasn't able to see...)), profling with Eye One Match for fine art work for "pleasing color" (gorgeous prints that everyone falls in love with) BUT... I'm also curious to hear about the challenges presented by other applications.

Cheers, Joe
Title: Now for the Bonus round question ! i1xtreme UV or NON UV system & why ?
Post by: Scott Martin on March 10, 2010, 11:29:20 am
Quote from: shewhorn
Manufacturer's drivers profiling with Eye One Match for fine art work for "pleasing color"
Since EOM uses software based OBA correction you won't see a difference when using a UVin or UVex device. If you wanted to make spot measurements of the paper itself using EyeOneShare, a regular non-filtered EyeOne will graph the effects of the OBAs that the UV Cut won't. I keep my regular EyeOnePro around particularly for these spot measurements.

Looking at the bigger picture, the choice of profiling software you choose will have a greater effect on the quality of your prints than UV filtration. Monaco PROFILER, IMO, will produce a preferable gray balance, shadow and edge gamut detail. Now isn't the best time to buy as another solution is getting close to coming to market.
Title: Now for the Bonus round question ! i1xtreme UV or NON UV system & why ?
Post by: shewhorn on March 10, 2010, 12:22:52 pm
Quote from: Onsight
Now isn't the best time to buy as another solution is getting close to coming to market.

Thank you... very interesting (especially the quoted part). I specifically went with the UV cut as I wanted the option to be able to use alternative software that wasn't able to filter UV in software... just some options. Either way I foresee a future need for something a little more automated (an iSis perhaps) so I can always sell the i1 Pro UV cut or hold on to it as a backup. For the time being it's doing the job I need it to do.

Dyin' to ask more questions about this other solution but, I know how that goes! :-)

Cheers, Joe
Title: Now for the Bonus round question ! i1xtreme UV or NON UV system & why ?
Post by: Studio2bn on March 10, 2010, 01:53:06 pm
Thanks again guys for all the input and help you have given here....it has been a great learning experience .....


Here is what I have and where I hope to go...

1) I have " NO RIP " .....I am using printer drivers only...( Honestly, I can not afford a new RIP system and the i1Xtreme or similar device at this time)

2) I have the NEC 2690WUXI......with the Spectraview II...I Love this monitor and the Spectraview II....but as we know it is limited to calibrating the Monitor only

3) I print with an Epson 9800....K3 Ultrachromes....I NEVER use 3rd party inks !!!

4) To this point I have only used the ICC profiles provided by the Vendors

Considering what I have to work with I have been very fortunate with the response of the few Artists/Photographers that I have been printing for....However, " I " feel that there is room for growth and improvement with my printing skills and the level of control that I have .....I want to take this to the next level because when " I " look at the results " I " know that it could be better....Hence the search for something like the X-Rite i1Xtreme......I am starting to run into more and more Artists that prefer various/differing  Papers & canvases.....and situations that have made me feel that I need more knownledge....better control......and better printing skills to deal with some of these Artists at the next level....

I am trying to figure out how I can move to the next level....learning how/have more control of my end products.....I just want to become a better printer.....and seperate myself from any of the other local printers and "Sign" printers who think they are Fine Art printers !!!

Are most of the Artists happy with my work...Yes.....Do I see where there can be room for improvement....Yes........

So...give me guidance....Ye Ole Gurus of the vast world of Color control and Professional Printing !!!

Thanks again
 
J Michael Gill
Studio2bn@cox.net
Title: Now for the Bonus round question ! i1xtreme UV or NON UV system & why ?
Post by: Ernst Dinkla on March 10, 2010, 02:22:24 pm
Quote from: probep
Sorry, did you read http://www.freelists.org/post/argyllcms/Us...e-FWA-content,9 (http://www.freelists.org/post/argyllcms/Using-an-i1-to-measure-FWA-content,9) ?
I do confirm that it's imposible to emulate i1Pro UVcut thoroughly.

I did. And I would say the better approach is to remove a component that has been measured than to add a component that isn't measured. Both remain simulations but you may have noticed the observation that UV cut spectrometers actually give values below 420nm that they can't measure. So with UV cut spectrometers + profile creators that simulate UV spectrometer results the simulation builds on top of another simulation.

I bought an Eye 1 basic without UV filter because my Spectrocam seemed to get more deviations. I actually start to wonder whether the Spectrocam may have been just more accurate to all kinds of fluorescence effects due to its Xenon flash that has a closer match to daylight than all the other spectrometers. The discussion you gave the link for doesn't give me more confidence on what spectrometers actually read.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/)
Title: Now for the Bonus round question ! i1xtreme UV or NON UV system & why ?
Post by: Scott Martin on March 10, 2010, 02:38:46 pm
Quote from: Studio2bn
I want to take this to the next level because when " I " look at the results " I " know that it could be better....
While I do think that superb custom PROFILER profiles might be a nice subtle step to take at some point I don't think that custom profiles via EyeOneMatch would be worthwhile. Instead you might consider focusing your attention on little details like localized contrast enhancement and print sharpening. Take a workshop, get critiqued, get inspired, investigate different presentation techniques, try some new papers, print coatings, etc... Sometimes we think that buying something will fill a void but nothing does that like inspiration and quality learning experiences.
Title: Now for the Bonus round question ! i1xtreme UV or NON UV system & why ?
Post by: shewhorn on March 10, 2010, 03:28:39 pm
Quote from: Onsight
While I do think that superb custom PROFILER profiles might be a nice subtle step to take at some point I don't think that custom profiles via EyeOneMatch would be worthwhile. Instead you might consider focusing your attention on little details like localized contrast enhancement and print sharpening. Take a workshop, get critiqued, get inspired, investigate different presentation techniques, try some new papers, print coatings, etc... Sometimes we think that buying something will fill a void but nothing does that like inspiration and quality learning experiences.

It has always been my experience that education paired with good old experimentation go way beyond the gear in terms of improving results. My most productive learning always seems to come out of trying to realize as much potential as I possibly can from extremely limited tools. This kind of experimentation is what often leads to more creative uses of tools and that experience often translates to new tools when you upgrade.

Cheers, Joe
Title: Now for the Bonus round question ! i1xtreme UV or NON UV system & why ?
Post by: Studio2bn on March 10, 2010, 05:19:54 pm
Once again Thanks to all of you for taking your time and sharing your wisdom with me.....


Both Scott Martin/ Onsight...... and Joe /Shewhorn......... are closer to the truth....both well put and closer to reality than anything I have heard .....and for that I thank you both.....and here is why....

I delivered a set of proofs today....For a new artist I had met recently and I had really wondered if I could meet her expectations....she came in ...picked up the prints....walked around looking at them....walked outside and looked at them for 30 minutes or so...and I am thinking oh well....she comes back in...lays the prints down and says " Well, you have managed to to something that no other printer has been able to do....these are perfect !!! " And has placed a fairly large order.........After she left...I started thinking about what all the other Artists had said about my work.....and both you guys are right.....I just need to look inwardly a little more.... learn to use my equipment to its maximum potential ....broaden my scope of materials....finishes...presentations ....I believe that I was "Over Thinking" this entire ordeal !!! I guess sometimes our expectations we place on ourselves become over the top......So, I am just going to continue to study....understand my equipment...my substrates...finishes etc a lot better....and see where it leads me .....because from the feedback that I have gotten from the Artists...maybe I am doing better than I thought I was !!!

Ok.....you guys just saved me about $1500.00 !!! So, what do you want for your Birthday !!!!!!


I appreciate you and your help.......

J Michael Gill.........
Title: Now for the Bonus round question ! i1xtreme UV or NON UV system & why ?
Post by: shewhorn on March 10, 2010, 08:51:56 pm
Quote from: Studio2bn
Ok.....you guys just saved me about $1500.00 !!! So, what do you want for your Birthday !!!!!!

A Canon IPF8300  ... actually already have that one on pre-order.

Speaking of pre-ordering... I just ordered this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Color-Management-Und...2027&sr=8-1 (http://www.amazon.com/Color-Management-Understanding-Wiley-Technology/dp/0470058250/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1268272027&sr=8-1)

I'm looking for more technical resources to expand my knowledge base and that book caught my eye... it's supposed to be released on April 5th. Also picked up this one as well which was in stock (released January of 2009):

http://www.amazon.com/Digital-Color-Manage...=pd_sim_sbs_b_3 (http://www.amazon.com/Digital-Color-Management-Wiley-Technology/dp/047051244X/ref=pd_sim_sbs_b_3)

Light reading! LOL

Cheers, Joe
Title: Now for the Bonus round question ! i1xtreme UV or NON UV system & why ?
Post by: Scott Martin on March 11, 2010, 12:45:13 am
Quote from: shewhorn
A Canon IPF8300  ... actually already have that one on pre-order.
I've used it - great machine - lots of refinements. Love the new inks and scratch resistance. The improved gamut is a little smaller than Epson's HDR inkset in the highlights but is larger in the deepest (darkest) tones - especially in the blues. As a night photographer I'm particularly excited about those deep saturated colors! The new precision dot mode actually increases the gamut even further by placing the lighter ink dots down after the darker ink dots. Fun to look at under a loupe. I've got a review in the works...
Title: Now for the Bonus round question ! i1xtreme UV or NON UV system & why ?
Post by: shewhorn on March 11, 2010, 10:30:11 am
Quote from: Onsight
I've used it - great machine - lots of refinements. Love the new inks and scratch resistance. The improved gamut is a little smaller than Epson's HDR inkset in the highlights but is larger in the deepest (darkest) tones - especially in the blues. As a night photographer I'm particularly excited about those deep saturated colors! The new precision dot mode actually increases the gamut even further by placing the lighter ink dots down after the darker ink dots. Fun to look at under a loupe. I've got a review in the works...

I'm even more excited about it now!!! I was on Ilford's site last night and noticed they had a profile up for the IPF6350 so I was checking out the Ilford GSF profiles in Color Think for the 6100, 6350 and Epson 7900. Looks like Canon has done a great job with the new inks.

Cheers, Joe
Title: Now for the Bonus round question ! i1xtreme UV or NON UV system & why ?
Post by: Studio2bn on March 11, 2010, 10:38:23 am
For Scott at Onsight...

In reference to a statement you made earlier......" A better solution is coming to market " Can you tell us a little more on what that solution is ....


J Michael
Title: Now for the Bonus round question ! i1xtreme UV or NON UV system & why ?
Post by: Scott Martin on March 11, 2010, 10:39:53 am
Quote from: shewhorn
I'm even more excited about it now!!! I was on Ilford's site last night and noticed they had a profile up for the IPF6350 so I was checking out the Ilford GSF profiles in Color Think for the 6100, 6350 and Epson 7900. Looks like Canon has done a great job with the new inks.
And you can download a "Media Configuration File" (MCF) that allows "Ilford Gold Fibre Silk" to show up in the printer driver and on the printer as a media type. That MCF file contains lots of preferences about the handling of the paper (head positioning, suction, ink limits, etc). While the "special" media types were nice to use on the previous printers with 3rd party papers, this solution is even better. Of course, HP has had this for years...
Title: Now for the Bonus round question ! i1xtreme UV or NON UV system & why ?
Post by: Scott Martin on March 11, 2010, 10:43:11 am
Quote from: Studio2bn
In reference to a statement you made earlier......" A better solution is coming to market " Can you tell us a little more on what that solution is
Sorry, no, except that it will replace several pro-level color management applications available today.
Title: Now for the Bonus round question ! i1xtreme UV or NON UV system & why ?
Post by: probep on March 11, 2010, 11:19:13 am
Quote from: Onsight
Sorry, no, except that it will replace several pro-level color management applications available today.
X-Rite Prism technology, I think.

Prism major functionalities:
Monitor profile generation
Projector profile generation
Printer CMYK profile generation with auto black generation
Printer RGB profile generation
Printer CMYK profile generation with advanced options to adjust black generation
Printer CMYK+N profile generation (N<=4)
Printer profile generation from iteration
Optical Brightener Compensation
Small test chart (Munki API�s)
Spot color iteration
Device transforms for conversion of color data using ICC profiles
Delta E calculation
Harmonies
Spectral blends
Color extraction from image
Centroid functions and auto naming
Hilbert indexing (use for ordering colors)
Color conversation (not device specific)
Title: Now for the Bonus round question ! i1xtreme UV or NON UV system & why ?
Post by: issa on June 23, 2010, 06:36:47 am
Quote from: probep
Yes, but...
1. There are many profile builders that don't have OBA compensation option;
2. Some profile builders (X-Rite/GretagMacbeth ProfileMaker, for example) have "Correct for Optical Brightener" option, but it works ONLY for Perceptual Rendering Intent;
3. It's impossible to emulate UV-excluded spectrophotometer with UV-include spectrophotometer with some degree of certainty. For example, look at http://www.freelists.org/post/argyllcms/Us...e-FWA-content,9 (http://www.freelists.org/post/argyllcms/Using-an-i1-to-measure-FWA-content,9)
4. Professional devices (iSis for example) use both modes (UV-excluded and UV-included). See http://www.colorwiki.com/wiki/Optical_Brig..._2_-_X-Rite_OBC (http://www.colorwiki.com/wiki/Optical_Brighteners_2_-_X-Rite_OBC)


Is there any documentation where this qualified that OBA correction in PM5 happens in teh Perceptual rendering intent only, as I mostly use relative, also do non UV spectrophotometer emit some uv through the the tungesten lighting

Thanks
Issa
Title: Now for the Bonus round question ! i1xtreme UV or NON UV system & why ?
Post by: probep on June 28, 2010, 07:37:26 am
Quote from: issa
Is there any documentation where this qualified that OBA correction in PM5 happens in teh Perceptual rendering intent only, as I mostly use relative, also do non UV spectrophotometer emit some uv through the the tungesten lighting

Thanks
Issa
There were such links, but I didn't store them.
Nevertheless if you have ColorThink Pro and an i1Pro (as well as PM5), you can make sure that it's true. Create profiles with and without OBA correction and compare them in the ColorThink Pro. Rel. Colorimetric LUTs will be identical.
Title: Now for the Bonus round question ! i1xtreme UV or NON UV system & why ?
Post by: probep on June 28, 2010, 08:10:27 am
BTW Did anyone use BableColor CT&A v 3.0? Very interesting indeed. I did. But, ha-ha, an i1Pro even with UV-filter from photocamera and with manipulations will not replace native i1Pro UVcut.
The quote from BabelColor CT&A doc:
Quote
Spectral Tools: Use this tool to measure color patches with and without UV-cut with only a non-UV-cut Eye-One. A UV-blocking filter is required.
Title: Now for the Bonus round question ! i1xtreme UV or NON UV system & why ?
Post by: Scott Martin on June 28, 2010, 06:05:07 pm
Quote from: Studio2bn
For Scott at Onsight...
In reference to a statement you made earlier......" A better solution is coming to market " Can you tell us a little more on what that solution is ....
i1Profiler is what it's called and the cat is now out of the bag. You can read about it at: http://www.xrite.com/custom_page.aspx?PageID=156 (http://www.xrite.com/custom_page.aspx?PageID=156)

NickWalker, when you do some exhaustive testing between EyeOneMatch,MonacoProfiler and the upcoming i1Profiler I think you'll feel good about retiring EyeOneMatch!
Title: Now for the Bonus round question ! i1xtreme UV or NON UV system & why ?
Post by: issa on June 29, 2010, 12:56:36 pm
OK now for real world example.

I printed a 918 test chart which was allowed to dry for 3 days, this was measured with i1Pro and measure tool in PM 5.09 with spectral enabled, I did several measurment, and all were very close to each other, I created  a profile using Profilee Maker without the correct for optical brightners switched on. The software recognised there were OBA in the paper. Paper is Hahnemuhle Fine Art Baryta.

Same measurement were done with another i1Pro but this time it is UV cut, also created many measurement and then a profile in PM5.

Printed two test images withe two profiles, and I can't see or tell any difference at all, under different viewing conditions. Is that may be due to the paper having low OBA.

I was expecting the UV Cut profile, to give a blusih cast under uv light, as this was not compensated for with yellow ink, and normall indoors, where the profile measured without filter, I expected normal color under UV light due to extra yellow ink to offset the increased blue from the OBA and slight yellowish indoors, as there is no UV light to react with paper, well that is what these forum led me to beleive.

Have I missed something along the line ssome where?

Thanks in advance
Issa









Title: Now for the Bonus round question ! i1xtreme UV or NON UV system & why ?
Post by: probep on June 29, 2010, 11:32:00 pm
Quote from: issa
Printed two test images withe two profiles, and I can't see or tell any difference at all, under different viewing conditions. Is that may be due to the paper having low OBA.
I didn't use Hahnemuhle Fine Art Baryta. But usually Fine Art papers don't have OBA (I know the only paper with considerable amount of OBA - it's Epson Velvet Fine Art Paper).
Try papers with large amount of OBA (Epson Ultra Glossy Paper, Epson Traditional Photo Paper, Epson Archival Matte Paper etc.) and you'll see the difference at a glance.
Title: Now for the Bonus round question ! i1xtreme UV or NON UV system & why ?
Post by: shewhorn on June 30, 2010, 01:43:16 am
Quote from: probep
I didn't use Hahnemuhle Fine Art Baryta. But usually Fine Art papers don't have OBA.
Try papers with large amount of OBA (Epson Ultra Glossy Paper, Epson Traditional Photo Paper, Epson Archival Matte Paper etc.) and you'll see the difference at a glance.

FAB does have OBAs. As to how much I'm not sure. Hahnemuhle's data sheet only says that the "OBA content" is "moderate".

Cheers, Joe
Title: Now for the Bonus round question ! i1xtreme UV or NON UV system & why ?
Post by: Ernst Dinkla on June 30, 2010, 03:29:01 am
Quote from: probep
I didn't use Hahnemuhle Fine Art Baryta. But usually Fine Art papers don't have OBA (I know the only paper with considerable amount of OBA - it's Epson Velvet Fine Art Paper).
Try papers with large amount of OBA (Epson Ultra Glossy Paper, Epson Traditional Photo Paper, Epson Archival Matte Paper etc.) and you'll see the difference at a glance.

Almost all the RC papers have OBA/FWA. It is less used in Fine Art papers but even in that category there are some loaded with it.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

spectral plots of +100 inkjet papers:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm (http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm)
Title: Now for the Bonus round question ! i1xtreme UV or NON UV system & why ?
Post by: probep on June 30, 2010, 04:05:04 am
Quote from: Ernst Dinkla
Almost all the RC papers have OBA/FWA. It is less used in Fine Art papers but even in that category there are some loaded with it.
Thanks for your info.

BTW about OBAs (measured values) in Epson papers.
Title: Now for the Bonus round question ! i1xtreme UV or NON UV system & why ?
Post by: issa on June 30, 2010, 05:04:57 am
Quote from: probep
Thanks for your info.

BTW about OBAs (measured values) in Epson papers.

Thanks - I think whilst FAB does have OBA it is ver small amount and does not have an any visual impact of prints whetehr you use UV-CUT or non UV I1Pro.

I was interested to the difference, i suupose I ned to use High OBA content paper to se that, might do that at some stage.
Title: Now for the Bonus round question ! i1xtreme UV or NON UV system & why ?
Post by: Ernst Dinkla on June 30, 2010, 05:18:35 am
Quote from: probep
Thanks for your info.

BTW about OBAs (measured values) in Epson papers.

Comparing the spectral plots of a nice OBA free Fine Art paper with a high whiteness like Canon Rag Photographique or Moab Entrada Neutral, to the plots of Moab Entrada Rag Bright, Lumijet Photo White Satin + Photo White. HM Photorag Bright White, HM Torchon, HP Canvas paper, I see OBAs used to the level of what is common in RC papers. Smaller quantities used in HM Photorag etc.

The most extreme: Moab Entrada Rag Bright just ahead of the FujiFilm Photo Glossy RC on the OBA measured valley and peak

In Fiber and Baryta qualities the HM FineArt Pearl, Innova IFA29 FibaPrint White Semi-Matt, Maob Colorado Fiber Satine, HM FineArt Baryta, that is just half of OBA containing paper in that category that I have the spectral plots for.


Off-topic: we could use a better term for whitening agents based on fluorescence. OBA, optical brightening agent is too vague as it doesn't mention fluorescence yet it describes the reflection/converted output of the fluorescent better with "brightening". FWA, fluorescent whitening agent doesn't describe the output correctly. At least for the stuff used in papers FBA would be better.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

spectral plots of +100 inkjet papers:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm (http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm)

.
Title: Now for the Bonus round question ! i1xtreme UV or NON UV system & why ?
Post by: Scott Martin on June 30, 2010, 08:46:53 am
Quote from: issa
I was expecting the UV Cut profile, to give a blusih cast under uv light, as this was not compensated for with yellow ink, and normall indoors, where the profile measured without filter, I expected normal color under UV light due to extra yellow ink to offset the increased blue from the OBA and slight yellowish indoors, as there is no UV light to react with paper, well that is what these forum led me to believe. Have I missed something along the line ssome where?
The differences should be really subtle, that's for sure, since you've checked the OBA checkbox. As you can imagine, the differences were more significant before GMB had provided that checkbox. PMP's OBA correction effects the Perceptual intent. Did you also make prints using other intents, especially Absolute Colorimetric? More real world testing is required. Linearization in different RIPs, for example, is worth testing. Profile creation in different applications is worth testing. Profiling different media is in order. You'll find that some situations call for one or the other. Being a color management consultant requires that you have both on hand and know which one will work best in what situations and why. It's a complex discussion, but for simple inkjet/driver profile creation, like what most here are interested in, one should focus on what software is being used to make the profile, more than the UV filtration since it won't make much of a difference.

Title: Now for the Bonus round question ! i1xtreme UV or NON UV system & why ?
Post by: Ernst Dinkla on June 30, 2010, 08:49:36 am
Quote from: issa
Thanks - I think whilst FAB does have OBA it is ver small amount and does not have an any visual impact of prints whetehr you use UV-CUT or non UV I1Pro.

I was interested to the difference, i suupose I ned to use High OBA content paper to se that, might do that at some stage.


Hahnemühle FineArt Baryta has more OBA aboard than this discussion suggests. More than many RC papers have. More than PhotoRag Bright White has.

I don't think that you need a higher OBA loaded paper than FAB for tests like that. If it doesn't work with FAB, the effect will not change significantly with another paper.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

spectral plots of +100 inkjet papers:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm (http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm)
Title: Now for the Bonus round question ! i1xtreme UV or NON UV system & why ?
Post by: issa on June 30, 2010, 09:09:58 am
Quote from: Onsight
The differences should be really subtle, that's for sure, since you've checked the OBA checkbox. As you can imagine, the differences were more significant before GMB had provided that checkbox. PMP's OBA correction effects the Perceptual intent. Did you also make prints using other intents, especially Absolute Colorimetric? More real world testing is required. Linearization in different RIPs, for example, is worth testing. Profile creation in different applications is worth testing. Profiling different media is in order. You'll find that some situations call for one or the other. Being a color management consultant requires that you have both on hand and know which one will work best in what situations and why. It's a complex discussion, but for simple inkjet/driver profile creation, like what most here are interested in, one should focus on what software is being used to make the profile, more than the UV filtration since it won't make much of a difference.

Hi scott

I did not check correct for optical brightners, and wanted one profile UV cut and another using no filter i1pro , therefore having two extremes. I was expecting to see a difference but i can't see any visual differences under all sorts of lighting, UV, day light and tungesten

Also used Relative Colormetric intent
Title: Now for the Bonus round question ! i1xtreme UV or NON UV system & why ?
Post by: probep on June 30, 2010, 09:19:10 am
Quote from: Ernst Dinkla
Hahnemühle FineArt Baryta has more OBA aboard than this discussion suggests. More than many RC papers have. More than PhotoRag Bright White has.

I don't think that you need a higher OBA loaded paper than FAB for tests like that. If it doesn't work with FAB, the effect will not change significantly with another paper.
Do you have measured data about OBA/FWA in FAB (or in any papers you mentioned above)? Otherwise it's like "discussion about nothing".
Did you compare i1Pro vs i1Pro UVcut in reality?
Title: Now for the Bonus round question ! i1xtreme UV or NON UV system & why ?
Post by: issa on June 30, 2010, 09:20:54 am

Here is the spectral reflectance chart taken from the profile ( measured data), both profiles were buit without correct for optical brightners checked.

[attachment=22873:spectral.png]

Thanks Issa
Title: Now for the Bonus round question ! i1xtreme UV or NON UV system & why ?
Post by: Ernst Dinkla on June 30, 2010, 09:38:34 am
Quote from: probep
Do you have measured data about OBA/FWA in FAB (or in any papers you mentioned above)? Otherwise it's like "discussion about nothing".
Did you compare i1Pro vs i1Pro UVcut in reality?

You must have missed the link in the other messages:

spectral plots of +100 inkjet papers:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm (http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm)

To judge in what category of OBA use a paper falls you do not need a UV-cut spectrometer. What tells a lot is the spectral distribution of the print side reflectance. There is more than that in the link I gave.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

spectral plots of +100 inkjet papers:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm (http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm)
Title: Now for the Bonus round question ! i1xtreme UV or NON UV system & why ?
Post by: Ernst Dinkla on June 30, 2010, 09:47:41 am
Quote from: issa
Here is the spectral reflectance chart taken from the profile ( measured data), both profiles were buit without correct for optical brightners checked.

[attachment=22873:spectral.png]

Thanks Issa

And the UV-cut Spectrometer knows the reflectance below say 420 Nm that it can't measure :-)


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

spectral plots of +100 inkjet papers:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm (http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm)


Title: Now for the Bonus round question ! i1xtreme UV or NON UV system & why ?
Post by: Scott Martin on June 30, 2010, 10:26:40 pm
Quote from: issa
I did not check correct for optical brightners, and wanted one profile UV cut and another using no filter i1pro , therefore having two extremes. I was expecting to see a difference but i can't see any visual differences under all sorts of lighting, UV, day light and tungesten
I see, yes it's subtle. You are using the paper gray axis setting? Use an excellent evaluation image with a large greyscale ramp and view under daylight. Repeat the test on a paper with tons of OBAs for a more pronounced effect.