Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: David Grover / Capture One on March 01, 2010, 06:18:51 am

Title: H4D40 800 ISO Shot
Post by: David Grover / Capture One on March 01, 2010, 06:18:51 am
f6.7
0.3s exposure
HCD28
ISO800

Hand held (carefully braced against barrier!)

Slight Clarity and Shadow Fill adjustment

Tad of USM

Zero noise reduction.

I took this at 17:50, Sunset for that day is 18:25.  Very overcast, so there was no "Big Fat" favourable MFD light.  Just muddiness!

Full image...
[attachment=20571:H4D40ISO800.jpg]

Crops...

[attachment=20572:H4D800ISOCrop1.jpg]

[attachment=20573:H4D800ISOCrop2.jpg]

[attachment=20577:H4D800ISOCrop3.jpg]

[attachment=20574:H4D800ISOCrop4.jpg]

[attachment=20576:H4D800ISOCrop5.jpg]

[attachment=20578:H4D800ISOCrop6.jpg]

[attachment=20579:H4D800ISOCrop7.jpg]
Title: H4D40 800 ISO Shot
Post by: Dick Roadnight on March 01, 2010, 06:36:31 am
Quote from: David Grover / Hasselblad
f6.7
0.3s exposure
HCD28

Hand held (carefully braced against barrier!)

Slight Clarity and Shadow Fill adjustment

Tad of USM

Zero noise reduction.

I took this at 17:50, Sunset for that day is 18:25.  Very overcast, so there was no "Big Fat" favourable MFD light.  Just muddiness!

This is a similar type of shot to the Hasselblad picture of Hongkong on the USB card they gave me at the HD4-40 launch, and I found that Phocus 2.1 could almost eliminate the muddiness, cast etc, and make a really usable picture.
Title: H4D40 800 ISO Shot
Post by: BobDavid on March 01, 2010, 08:19:28 am
The 28mm lens is no slouch.
Title: H4D40 800 ISO Shot
Post by: fredjeang on March 01, 2010, 08:41:54 am
Very impressive, in the dark and warm areas.
May those pics close the eternal debate between 35mm and MDF...

Cheers,

Fred.
Title: H4D40 800 ISO Shot
Post by: arashm on March 01, 2010, 12:10:14 pm
David
Thank you for posting this
is there any ways you can host/post the Raw file for download?
Thank you
am
Title: H4D40 800 ISO Shot
Post by: bcooter on March 01, 2010, 01:09:45 pm
Quote from: David Grover / Hasselblad
f6.7
0.3s exposure
HCD28
ISO800

Hand held (carefully braced against barrier!)

Slight Clarity and Shadow Fill adjustment

Tad of USM

Zero noise reduction.

I took this at 17:50, Sunset for that day is 18:25.  Very overcast, so there was no "Big Fat" favourable MFD light.  Just muddiness!

Dave,

I think a lot of people would like to see a higher rez version.  Even a processed tiff could be set to jpeg compression 11 and that would only make about a 5 mb file which is pretty easy to download.

Saturday I was in a large camera store (yes there are a few camera stores left) and since this was Saturday you know it's not B+H.  Anyway, this store sells most medium format backs and cameras and the sales person who I have known a long time said Phocus is now quite good, except for the fact it uses a lot of video card power or video ram.

What I would love to see on a u tube video  (honestly . . . not in a way to trip anyone up) from you and your competitors is set up your camera connected to either a new clamshell powerbook or I Mac (no towers as towers do not travel well) set up with a 23" mirrored monitor and approx 30 ft. of firewire cord, that's around 9 meters for your rest of the world folk, ( and shoot about 800 frames, all named to about 11 different folders.

Go through the real world process of naming the folders before hand, renaming some of the shots because the AD decided to change the inset to the feature, shoot, shoot and keep shooting, then somewhere in the middle of all of this pull the firewire cord to make it disconnect, (so we can see how long it takes to reconnect), shoot some to cards and put them in sequence of the shoot, then reconnect shoot some more, then somewhere in the shooting process background process some smaller jpegs or tiffs (so the client can e-mail a few to the boss), with it not interrupting the shoot.

When briefly shooting non tethered, have the photographer show the AD the shot on the back of the camera and zoom in on the AD's reaction.  Does he squint, does he say great, does he say "what the hell is that"?

Now keep the video camera running and have the digital tech copy these to two different portable firewire drives for backup, then follow him/her to his room, office, van, and (keep that video camera running) have him/her put the images (from tethered and portable) in proper naming,  correct and process out 800 jpegs for web gallery use at 900 to 1000 pixels on the longest side.

I'm serious (well as serious as I get which probably isn't that serious), that this is what makes or breaks a system in real world use.

Now please on that U tube video have a preproduction meeting where nobody on set is allowed to say the words fabulous, fab, cool, groovy, sick, or marvelous.  No back slapping, two cheek kissing, holding glasses of wine.    Just let them stick to the facts man.

Now the final segment of the video is where you put the digital tech into one of those curtained rooms where his face is in shadow and his voice distorted and you ask him these question.

1.  How did Phocus work on set.  Any glitches or crashes?  

2. How was it shooting to card, renaming and inserting them into the master shoot folder.  

3.  Did he see any weird stuff in the files, moire, alaising, artifacts?

4.  How long did it take to correct, process and insert these jpegs into web galleries.

5.  What time did he go to bed.


Thanks

BC

P.S.  Now not to start a rumor though I was told that soon Phocus will soon process Canon and Nikon files.   Any truth to this . . . because if it does that would be fab, cool, sick and marvelous.

If it tethered to these cameras that would be even better and I'm sure a lot of people will give you the two cheek kiss.



Title: H4D40 800 ISO Shot
Post by: David Grover / Capture One on March 01, 2010, 01:39:36 pm
Hi James,

How would know if I didn't sneakily edit the video?  ;-)

My point being the only person who can determine if the system is right for you, is probably you.

Jpeg level 10 is 7.5MB and the max upload is 2MB here so Ill figure something else out.

David

Title: H4D40 800 ISO Shot
Post by: David Grover / Capture One on March 01, 2010, 01:42:52 pm
Here is a yousendit.com link to a level 10 Jpeg..

https://rcpt.yousendit.com/828007285/6fdce0...49a17ad12ba41cd (https://rcpt.yousendit.com/828007285/6fdce02dcc06f3d3a49a17ad12ba41cd)

Valid for 7 days but no idea if they pull it if too many downloads.

So get it while its hot!

D

Title: H4D40 800 ISO Shot
Post by: mtomalty on March 01, 2010, 01:44:14 pm

BC

Maybe to get the ball rolling,  and to provide a template for David to follow,  you should create this YouTube video
with all the parameters you list as necessary for a successful shoot showcasing the equipment and manpower
required to make this a reality.

Mark
Title: H4D40 800 ISO Shot
Post by: fredjeang on March 01, 2010, 01:51:01 pm
Quote from: bcooter
When briefly shooting non tethered, have the photographer show the AD the shot on the back of the camera and zoom in on the AD's reaction.  Does he squint, does he say great, does he say "what the hell is that"?
If it is the photographer that shows from the back to the AD then it could be suspicious too    
The AD should just stay quiet in front of the monitor 30ft back while a camera is filming his face expressions.        

Quote from: bcooter
P.S.  Now not to start a rumor though I was told that soon Phocus will soon process Canon and Nikon files.   Any truth to this . . . because if it does that would be fab, cool, sick and marvelous.

If it tethered to these cameras that would be even better and I'm sure a lot of people will give you the two cheek kiss.
Any Plan for Pentax as well?

Fred.
Title: H4D40 800 ISO Shot
Post by: bcooter on March 01, 2010, 02:01:41 pm
Quote from: mtomalty
BC

Maybe to get the ball rolling,  and to provide a template for David to follow,  you should create this YouTube video
with all the parameters you list as necessary for a successful shoot showcasing the equipment and manpower
required to make this a reality.

Mark


Mark,

No problem.

Who do I send the estimate to?

 BC

Title: H4D40 800 ISO Shot
Post by: bcooter on March 01, 2010, 02:03:21 pm
Quote from: David Grover / Hasselblad
Hi James,

How would know if I didn't sneakily edit the video?  ;-)

David


Dave,

We all know that NOBODY in camera land would ever misrepresent a product.

We have total faith.

Actually I downloaded your file, but I don't shoot buildings and Hong Kong is pretty funky with all the smog, fog and mercry vapors.  Looks pretty good though.  (man I love Hong Kong . . . did you try the gooey web feet?)

Anyway.

The only detail test I look for is what I call the crop it vertical from a horizontal test cause this is what clients do.

A shot like this (don't look for detail cause it's a screen shot), shot with continuous light, high iso, where if you crop a breathing subject to shot horizontal to  vertical and do you see enough eyelash to retouch around?

[attachment=20588:eyelashes.jpg]

This vertical horizontal thing is the most abuse my files get, cause everybody now runs everything everywhere.

Thx.

BC

P.S.  Also come on Dave spill the beans, you guys gonna process them little Nikon and Canon files?
Title: H4D40 800 ISO Shot
Post by: David Grover / Capture One on March 01, 2010, 02:39:50 pm
Quote from: bcooter
Actually I downloaded your file, but I don't shoot buildings and Hong Kong is pretty funky with all the smog, fog and mercry vapors.  Looks pretty good though.  (man I love Hong Kong . . . did you try the gooey web feet?)



Thx.

P.S.  Also come on Dave spill the beans, you guys gonna process them little Nikon and Canon files?

Exactly...which is why you need to try it out for yourself, as no singular sample image applies to all.

As for Canon / Nikon, it has been talked about many times, but it is not as simple as just adding support.  There are much wider implications on a commercial level.

D

Title: H4D40 800 ISO Shot
Post by: AlexM on March 01, 2010, 02:47:54 pm
Quote from: David Grover / Hasselblad
Here is a yousendit.com link to a level 10 Jpeg..

https://rcpt.yousendit.com/828007285/6fdce0...49a17ad12ba41cd (https://rcpt.yousendit.com/828007285/6fdce02dcc06f3d3a49a17ad12ba41cd)

Valid for 7 days but no idea if they pull it if too many downloads.

So get it while its hot!

D

Looks like a file from Nikon at iso800 but with a much higher resolution. Impressive.
Title: H4D40 800 ISO Shot
Post by: teddillard on March 01, 2010, 03:23:00 pm
Quote from: David Grover / Hasselblad
f6.7
0.3s exposure
HCD28
ISO800

Hand held (carefully braced against barrier!)

Slight Clarity and Shadow Fill adjustment

Tad of USM

Zero noise reduction.

I took this at 17:50, Sunset for that day is 18:25.  Very overcast, so there was no "Big Fat" favourable MFD light.  Just muddiness!


dude.  hand held?  you're a machine.  
Title: H4D40 800 ISO Shot
Post by: eronald on March 01, 2010, 03:28:25 pm
Quote from: bcooter
Dave,

We all know that NOBODY in camera land would ever misrepresent a product.
BC

P.S.  Also come on Dave spill the beans, you guys gonna process them little Nikon and Canon files?


I like the Canon sample files, they are really totally honest, every time I got a Canon I could do at least as well as the posted files.

Edmund
Title: H4D40 800 ISO Shot
Post by: aaron on March 01, 2010, 03:35:18 pm
Bcooter, will you let Mr.Russell know, when your talking to him next, that the ballet image posted is simply beautiful.

Sometimes the camera is totally irrelevant.   (unless you need a D3 to focus on a moving target in that gorgeous ambient light  )
Title: H4D40 800 ISO Shot
Post by: gwhitf on March 01, 2010, 04:03:38 pm
Quote from: David Grover / Hasselblad
So get it while its hot!

David,

That's an awfully nice file. I didn't know you worked out. You sure that wasn't a Foba camera stand you were leaning against?

I think next time, instead of some silly countdown clock on a webpage, why not just show a nice PHOTOGRAPH like that, and then have a countdown clock mounted on one of those buildings in that scene, kinda like that National Debt counter in Union Square, and then once it counts down, the fireworks come out of the top of one of those skyscrapers in that PHOTOGRAPH.

It's so funny to me -- mounds and mounds of Words wasted, and mounds and mounds of Specs and Numbers wasted, and all you've got to do is show one PHOTOGRAPH, and everyone in the world totally gets it that you've got a winner on your hands there.

So simple -- no ad agency needed -- just show one PHOTOGRAPH. Handheld, even. Distorted, even. But everybody gets it that's a nice camera and back.

Good luck with it. Very nice.
Title: H4D40 800 ISO Shot
Post by: TMARK on March 01, 2010, 04:25:42 pm
Nice.  Real nice.

I checked out Phocus and I like it.  Its a little slow on my tower but my v-card needs to be upgraded.

If H supports Nikon and Canon, well, you would really hit it out of the park, as we say in the states.  

Title: H4D40 800 ISO Shot
Post by: Baxter on March 01, 2010, 04:50:53 pm
Really helpful set of pictures, with tremendous level of detail. I'm currently just starting the research for a potential switch to Digital MF (currently 5x4 and Nikon). The full shot seems to have the distortion from such a wide lens with the skyscrapers on top LHS in particular radiating outwards. Does Phocus offer a way of controlling/recovering this? I use DxO for the Nikon and understood that Hasselblad have similar lens mapping to optimise performance.

Not sure I 'need' H4D at this stage, but don't want to hijack the thread.

Many thanks

Bax
Title: H4D40 800 ISO Shot
Post by: Nick-T on March 01, 2010, 05:24:41 pm
Quote from: Baxter
Does Phocus offer a way of controlling/recovering this? I use DxO for the Nikon and understood that Hasselblad have similar lens mapping to optimise performance.

The short answer is no. You are talking about perspective correction which Phocus does not do (although it's remarkably easy to do in Photoshop).
What Phocus does do (and very well) are lens corrections. The software automatically corrections for distortion (barrel/mustache) vignetting and CA (Chromatic aberration).
 It's actually a very clever system and IMO Hasselblad do not do a very good job of promoting it. Basically they have tens of thousands on lookup tables based on the computer designs for each lens at myriad combinations of aperture, subject to camera distance (focus distance) and focal length (very important with a zoom). I haven't used DxO but I cannot see how it's corrections would ever be as good/accurate as they simply do not have the data that Phocus uses.
Nick-T
Title: H4D40 800 ISO Shot
Post by: Barry Goyette on March 01, 2010, 05:28:25 pm
hey david...

as impressive as that file is...when I download it...it's not even the full sized image, is it? It's actually a pretty awkward resample

h4d-40 pixel dimensions  7304 x 5478   Jpeg uploaded: 5113 x 3835  (approx 70%) I think it would actuallly look a bit cleaner (given the sharpening and resampling) at full res.

(your crops appear to be made with the same resampling)

Barry
Title: H4D40 800 ISO Shot
Post by: David Grover / Capture One on March 01, 2010, 05:44:47 pm
Oooo good spot Barry!

My fault entirely.  I had a few shots of the image saved to the desktop and was messing with the wrong TIF.  You assume correct, it was a 70% down-sample I had made for someone.

Anyway, nothing to hide, so here is the original...

https://download.yousendit.com/VGljc2ZOQ1JENlJjR0E9PQ (https://download.yousendit.com/VGljc2ZOQ1JENlJjR0E9PQ)

Good night all,


David

Title: H4D40 800 ISO Shot
Post by: BernardLanguillier on March 01, 2010, 07:24:28 pm
Thanks for posting.

Good detail and pretty low noise considering it is ISO800. I haven't checked the original size image yet.

How much USM did you apply if I may ask?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: H4D40 800 ISO Shot
Post by: vandevanterSH on March 01, 2010, 07:33:04 pm
How much of the improved ISO performance Phocus 2.x and how much the new back?  I had considered ISO 400 on my CFV unusable, however, recently I intentionally under exposed several shots at ISO 400 and then "pushed" the exposure and fill.  The results were surprisingly good considering how bad properly exposed ISO 400 files were with flexcolor and early Phocus.  Or is this my imagination and selective memory?

Steve
Title: H4D40 800 ISO Shot
Post by: Barry Goyette on March 01, 2010, 09:39:04 pm
Quote from: vandevanterSH
How much of the improved ISO performance Phocus 2.x and how much the new back?  I had considered ISO 400 on my CFV unusable, however, recently I intentionally under exposed several shots at ISO 400 and then "pushed" the exposure and fill.  The results were surprisingly good considering how bad properly exposed ISO 400 files were with flexcolor and early Phocus.  Or is this my imagination and selective memory?
There have previously been some improvements in Phocus to allow up to 1600 on the 31 (which was originally maxed out at 800)...so certainly some of the improvement is in the software. However, when I processed out some 800 and 1600 iso images from the 40 last week I was doing it along side some existing images from my 31, in the same version of Phocus, and the images from the 40 were noticeably (and surprisingly) cleaner and more detailed...at 100% the grain size is comparable, but with fewer artifacts, and a significantly smoother tonal range, better skintones, and the appearance of more detail (indicating that perhaps less noise reduction is taking place, not more). Looking at the kodak's specs for the two sensors, i think you'd have to conclude that the heavy lifting is being done by the new sensor.

Title: H4D40 800 ISO Shot
Post by: gwhitf on March 01, 2010, 10:17:29 pm
.
Title: H4D40 800 ISO Shot
Post by: Baxter on March 02, 2010, 12:36:25 am
Quote from: Nick-T
The short answer is no. You are talking about perspective correction which Phocus does not do (although it's remarkably easy to do in Photoshop).
What Phocus does do (and very well) are lens corrections. The software automatically corrections for distortion (barrel/mustache) vignetting and CA (Chromatic aberration).
 It's actually a very clever system and IMO Hasselblad do not do a very good job of promoting it. Basically they have tens of thousands on lookup tables based on the computer designs for each lens at myriad combinations of aperture, subject to camera distance (focus distance) and focal length (very important with a zoom). I haven't used DxO but I cannot see how it's corrections would ever be as good/accurate as they simply do not have the data that Phocus uses.
Nick-T
Many thanks Nick.

Not sure about the fidelity levels which DxO uses, almost certainly not at same level as you quote. However it does work really well and offers auto corrections for spheres or cylinders. The corrections 'snap-in' and far less hassle than Photoshop!

I remember getting the low-down on Hasselblad lens correction system when first introduced from Matt at Robert White after he'd been on a training seminar and being impressed. I'll carry on my research and get off this thread!
Title: H4D40 800 ISO Shot
Post by: bcooter on March 02, 2010, 02:18:28 am
Quote from: aaron
Bcooter, will you let Mr.Russell know, when your talking to him next, that the ballet image posted is simply beautiful.

Sometimes the camera is totally irrelevant.   (unless you need a D3 to focus on a moving target in that gorgeous ambient light  )


Aaron,

Thank you.  I'll tell him when I speak to him, it will be greatly appreciated.  

We try to talk at least once a day.

BC
Title: H4D40 800 ISO Shot
Post by: Dustbak on March 02, 2010, 03:40:03 am
Quote from: gwhitf
With this high asa (800), and the larger nice tight LCD, and the fixed mirror slap, it's unarguably a nice combination, even with the cropped chip. Hasselblad is honing in on a magic combination for location shooters. The big question still for me is the usability of Phocus 2 on a MacbookPro with a less than stellar video card, and just the overall tethering usability. I wish there was a Phocus Mini-Me, if you needed to tether on a laptop, but didn't need to process on that machine. Just to make it quick and reliable to just see the frame, nice and big and tight on a 17" laptop. But to process later, back in the hotel, or back at home.

Still, to me, it's about seeing a photograph. Here, this camera's been hyped to death, and people obsessing about the numbers and the pixel dimensions, blah blah blah, but here's just a guy that takes the time to shoot a nice image, and BAM, that's all that needs to be said. One simple picture. And everybody shuts up, and takes notice. Makes you wonder why Hasselblad doesn't have that Nick guy go out and shoot some stuff in advance, nice and solid in a studio, with tungsten and strobe and whatever, and post 100% crops the very day it's announced. Let the pictures do the talking, and let the sensor design fans talk somewhere else.

I'd honestly love to see that new Hasselblad, in a studio, on a tripod, next to this upcoming 1ds4 and maybe the Nikon D3x, side by side, and let the pictures do the talking for a change. Why this does not happen more often, amazes me. If you got it, why not strut it?

I use Phocus on a  early 2008 MBP 15" which definitely has the weaker 8600M GT video card. I have no problems shooting to it tethered. I actually shoot tethered about 80% of my time. I can pull out the cable and reconnect without issues, this happens now and than because I sometimes step on the cable! I have done sessions on location varying from 50 to around 800 shots. Most of these were without problems, most problems derived from bad cables (always take several).

I need to stress out, if you are the machine gun type shooter, this is not your thing but shooting at a nice pace is certainly doable. I even use the 39 which is probably even the slowest one out there.

I only run into performance issues doing multishot sessions. It takes too long, especially for the people around me, before the final image is in. I am currently waiting for the new MBP to see if that final obstacle can be taken away.

Still... there is no such thing as perfect and I can think of a number of things that I would like to have improved and I am pretty certain they will.
Title: H4D40 800 ISO Shot
Post by: David Grover / Capture One on March 02, 2010, 08:13:19 am
Quote from: BernardLanguillier
Thanks for posting.

Good detail and pretty low noise considering it is ISO800. I haven't checked the original size image yet.

How much USM did you apply if I may ask?

Cheers,
Bernard


Only a little - 250 @ 0.7.  Thats in Phocus by the way, which has a much finer scale than PhotoShop.  0 -> 1000.

Title: H4D40 800 ISO Shot
Post by: David Grover / Capture One on March 02, 2010, 08:21:11 am
Quote from: gwhitf
David,

That's an awfully nice file. I didn't know you worked out. You sure that wasn't a Foba camera stand you were leaning against?

Quote from: teddillard
dude.  hand held?  you're a machine.  


I don't like to brag and all....
Title: H4D40 800 ISO Shot
Post by: gwhitf on March 02, 2010, 08:33:36 am
Quote from: Dustbak
I use Phocus on a  early 2008 MBP 15" which definitely has the weaker 8600M GT video card. I have no problems shooting to it tethered. I actually shoot tethered about 80% of my time. I can pull out the cable and reconnect without issues, this happens now and than because I sometimes step on the cable! I have done sessions on location varying from 50 to around 800 shots. Most of these were without problems, most problems derived from bad cables (always take several).

I need to stress out, if you are the machine gun type shooter, this is not your thing but shooting at a nice pace is certainly doable. I even use the 39 which is probably even the slowest one out there.

I only run into performance issues doing multishot sessions. It takes too long, especially for the people around me, before the final image is in. I am currently waiting for the new MBP to see if that final obstacle can be taken away.

Still... there is no such thing as perfect and I can think of a number of things that I would like to have improved and I am pretty certain they will.

Can I ask these questions of you, related to above? In your experience:

When you say "most were done without problems", what were those problems exactly?

Why is that camera not for "machine gun type shooter", ie, lifestyle/location? In your opinion.

When shooting fast, tethered, approximately how long does your camera take, after you shoot, before the fully-rezzed-in Preview flows into Phocus for client review?

Thanks. Just trying to get my head around this, for real-world use.

Separate from this, I also wonder the model number of the very best VideoCard to look for, that's commonly installed into a 17" MacBookPro laptop, to match up well with Phocus.
Title: H4D40 800 ISO Shot
Post by: Dustbak on March 02, 2010, 09:16:18 am
Quote from: gwhitf
Can I ask these questions of you, related to above? In your experience:

When you say "most were done without problems", what were those problems exactly?

Why is that camera not for "machine gun type shooter", ie, lifestyle/location? In your opinion.

When shooting fast, tethered, approximately how long does your camera take, after you shoot, before the fully-rezzed-in Preview flows into Phocus for client review?

Thanks. Just trying to get my head around this, for real-world use.

Separate from this, I also wonder the model number of the very best VideoCard to look for, that's commonly installed into a 17" MacBookPro laptop, to match up well with Phocus.

I have experienced the following problems;

1) Phocus hanging or crashing. Occcassionally, once every day with 2.0. once every couple of days with the current version 2.01.
2) Firewire error. This error requires you to take out the cable, shut down the camera and start it up again. Happens once a day at the most. Probably due to a degrading cable, remember not to step on the cable too often while shooting and walking around.
3) Empty batteries.
4) Also a firewire error but one that is kind of nasty. After having done several shots that are still coming in, the preview is already on the screen but the files aren't there yet. Firewire error, the camera goes off-line and the previews disappear and you have lost the files you thought you had. Fortunately this only happened twice last year. Very humiliating to explain you have to reshoot items.

For the machine gun shooting.  You can shoot at a pace of at most 1fps, you can make a small series but I find after 10 shots or so you need to give it a bit of time to catch up. If you can take your pace down just a tad (say 1/2fps) you can virtually shoot continuously. Remember I shoot the 39 which apparently is the slowest of the bunch.

When shooting fast the previews come in after about 2 seconds, it than takes another couple of seconds before they are sharp. The 'fuzzy' fast previews are in most cases enough to satisfy most clients at that moment. When they want to examine more closely the full sharp version is in. This slows down after about 10 shots.

Naturally all of these numbers aren't fixed but ball park and can vary somewhat due to circumstances. They are also based on my setup and way of working. For the stuff that I do, which is shooting accessories for fashion magazines on location, garments and catalogue, it works. The only area that is currently giving me a bit of a problem is multishot sessions.

The video card that is in my MBP is known to be a total disaster. Many people have experienced problems with it. I am not sure whether you can choose your video card with the MBP's. My own preference would go to Ati cards instead of Nvidia. I have had my share of trouble with those over the years.

I am sure the new MBP will give me better performance. I would love to have it go fluid and do 1 or 2 fps continuously for hundreds of shot. With my setup that is not the case yet but I can work it and feel comfortable with it.
Title: H4D40 800 ISO Shot
Post by: gwhitf on March 02, 2010, 09:19:25 am
Thanks for your candor. Real-world answers.
Title: H4D40 800 ISO Shot
Post by: David Grover / Capture One on March 02, 2010, 09:57:47 am
If you want super fast tethered shooting then a lot of the time the hard drive is the limiting factor.

I don't know what you have in your MBP Dustbak, but certainly a 7200RPM would help.

Also the 50 and 40 tether faster as they can dump the data much quicker than the 39 or 31 can.

As you know I have a dual disk setup.  SSD for OSX and Applications, 500GB 7200RPM for data.  Certainly whips things along!

D

Title: H4D40 800 ISO Shot
Post by: Dustbak on March 02, 2010, 10:07:02 am
I have 2.4ghz CPU, 6Gb of main memory and the 5400rpm 200gb disk. My next MBP (Geezz Apple please release it) will have at least 8Gb and at least 1 SSD drive. Just hoping they will get a good GPU.
Title: H4D40 800 ISO Shot
Post by: bcooter on March 02, 2010, 11:34:08 am
Quote from: Dustbak
I have 2.4ghz CPU, 6Gb of main memory and the 5400rpm 200gb disk. My next MBP (Geezz Apple please release it) will have at least 8Gb and at least 1 SSD drive. Just hoping they will get a good GPU.


This is why I mention the video.

I know it sounds silly, but there is nothing that will send clients, photographers, crew and talent crazier than standing around waiting to get a computer up and running;

I have heard a lot of client stories where they say they will never use a photographer again because the camera/computer went down every so many frames and took 30 minutes each time to get running.

I started digital capture with Brand C shooting to cards and downloading every 50 frames or so and this went along well, actually bulletproof, until clients felt they had to see each frame as they were shot.

Moved to Brand L and V8 software good, Brand L and 10 software bad, Brand P and 3 software good, brand p and 4 software bad, now brand c and it's included software very good.

I'm not nervous about this business anymore, since I've done it all of my adult life, but like most live in fear of the dreaded blank screen. or "it's not connecting" words.  

Today, especially in today's economy, everybody on set is under a huge volume of pressure to produce quickly, cleanly and on budget and nothing is allowed to slow it down.

So with that in mind nothing tells me more than working real world, though nothing tells me more than clarity from a manufacturer.

if a camera and it's required software really needs a new powerbook with an SSD card a second drive installed and maxed on ram just say it (I think David did), but also show it.

Showing it in the real world covers a lot of territory.  Look at the positive response from Dave's real world un retouched, un tripodded, shot of smoggy/foggy Hong Kong at 800 iso.

Compare this response to the Leica release of the S-2 with those over retouched, cuban photographs in the boxing ring.  The Leica images told us nothing, Dave's 10 minutes leaning on a pillar in Hong Kong speaks volumes.

To put a positive spin on it, for the last few years professional photography is an industry in change, to put a negative spin on it some think it's a dying industry, I'm kind of in between those two thoughts because as
much as I'd like to think it's just about change, I know the realities of the monetary and creative challenges that are put in front of us daily and it's a much different world in 2009/2010 than it was in 2006.

Regardless of what you think of the future of this industry the very hard reality is nobody is going to buy anything anymore that is problematic and nothing speaks louder than real world use.

I know a lot of photographers that have had a lot of different relationships with various makers.  The makers seem happy as a bowl of punch as long as the photographer says brand whatever is the easiest, best in the world, glossing over the issues and God forbid a photographer says actually brand whatever is pretty good, but we did have 4 crashes a day with the system.  The relationship gets strained at that point which is kind of dumb because nobody believes the world is always rosy type of comments.  

Selling is all about believability.  Nobody believes the NASCAR driver after they've turned their car into a smoking ball of muck when they say the "Gatorjuice 500 special was just great today and I want to thank Gatorjuice and my great team for almost killing me".  

If I was in the camera selling business I'd show two sessions.  One . . . the standard shot on white studio session with the stanard 20 people standing around a monitor saying stuff like look at the eyelash detail (I just fell asleep) and the other, showing a very small crew walking through the streets of Paris at night, shooting a model with maybe one small continuous light and using a table and a pile of cloth napkins as a tripod.  Then I'd show those images from un retouched through the whole process of post production and finish out.

The first session I would show as all business, the second session I would show as fun, cause God knows we all gotta have a little fun when we've spend money.

I think Hasselblad is in a good position because their name has a bling factor, their cameras have been in the market for a long time and now it seems (I say the word seems with a cautious tiny voice) that their software and workflow is catching up to the rest of the world.

If all of this is true they are worth a look, but once again, it better be bulletproof and reliable and as far as waiting on apple to make a faster powerbook, well that's just not the case anymore, it's up to the camera and software to work off the shelf today, not hoping for it to work tomorrow.


IMO

BC

Title: H4D40 800 ISO Shot
Post by: gwhitf on March 02, 2010, 01:23:18 pm
Quote from: bcooter
Showing it in the real world covers a lot of territory.  Look at the positive response from Dave's real world un retouched, un tripodded, shot of smoggy/foggy Hong Kong at 800 iso. Compare this response to the Leica release of the S-2 with those over retouched, cuban photographs in the boxing ring.  The Leica images told us nothing, Dave's 10 minutes leaning on a pillar in Hong Kong speaks volumes.

I agree completely, Large Cooter.

These things have gotten so complicated, it's almost easy to forget that it's about how the photograph is rendered. Show a photograph (unretouched); not a Spec Sheet. I'm betting that the guys that really get hard over a Spec Sheet are rarely buyers of the camera. They might study, but they rarely write the big check. So why cater to them? Show photographs, and don't retouch them.

In addition, I'd also see nothing wrong with Hasselblad recommending two types of laptops -- a minimum required setup, but also, a recommended setup to get the most out of the experience. I bought a 7200rpm 17" off the shelf at SmallDog.com, and it was worth every penny. It's my tethering machine. You wonder if they fear they're scaring off a potential customer if they post anything that requires them to spend an extra dime to get it to work well. But then, the camera arrives, they hook it up to tether to an old 15", and it chugs to a crawl. That cannot create a satisified customer experience.

Or else, have a "consumer webpage", where there are landscapes, sunsets, and animals, but also have a separate pro page, where there are a bunch of worried people, standing around a laptop, waiting for the Preview to flow in, while the beads of sweat flow down the Tech's forehead.

Trust me, they are two radically different experiences, and two radically different customers.
Title: H4D40 800 ISO Shot
Post by: Dustbak on March 02, 2010, 01:54:22 pm
Quote from: bcooter
"it's not connecting" words.

That thought make me truly sweat because at that moment you realize it is out of your hands and could be a problem that you cannot fix on the spot. Fortunately this has happened to me only once and it has been a while ( knock on wood, statistically I am in the danger zone).

Quote from: bcooter
If all of this is true they are worth a look, but once again, it better be bulletproof and reliable and as far as waiting on apple to make a faster powerbook, well that's just not the case anymore, it's up to the camera and software to work off the shelf today, not hoping for it to work tomorrow.

Hasselblad's solutions do work today with the current hardware, my MBP is at the bottom end of the recommended setup. Hasselblad does state a minimal requirement as well as a recommended configuration. More is always better. I don't mind buying the latest state of the art hardware if it gives me the desired performance. The only reason I currently wait for the new MBP is because it is bound to have a fairly drastic upgrade and it is supposed to happen any day now. I could always get the current model but I can hold on for a while if I get updated spec's.

Ah well... it is the never ending story I guess
Title: H4D40 800 ISO Shot
Post by: fredjeang on March 02, 2010, 03:10:53 pm
Quote from: bcooter
...To put a positive spin on it, for the last few years professional photography is an industry in change, to put a negative spin on it some think it's a dying industry, I'm kind of in between those two thoughts because as
much as I'd like to think it's just about change, I know the realities of the monetary and creative challenges that are put in front of us daily and it's a much different world in 2009/2010 than it was in 2006.

Regardless of what you think of the future of this industry the very hard reality is nobody is going to buy anything anymore that is problematic and nothing speaks louder than real world use.
It is a very interesting statement, made by someone who is fully trustable (if I can say it in english).
I would like to know if bcooter thinks that there will really be a kind of "purification" in the industry (I mean all the actors) and will soon disappear many unperfect products but also many ways of working, where 100% of reliability and 0 time lost will become THE standard?
And what about video capability in MFD?
But the points made by bcooter are really relevants in my understanding, and something is changing that we (all involved in the process at one stage or another) and the brands will have to face soon or later.
If the pressure is higher, and keeps going higher, who will be able to maintain the competition?

Ps: It seems that the jpeg at 100% for download is a 10 quality but not max 12.

Fred
Title: H4D40 800 ISO Shot
Post by: Dick Roadnight on March 02, 2010, 05:10:41 pm
David...

Next time you find yourself in front of a nice landscape, take a picture with a tripod, MLU and an HD4-60. (Or send me the camera and let me do it).

Dick
Title: H4D40 800 ISO Shot
Post by: AlexLF on March 02, 2010, 06:06:12 pm
Just seen the pictures - very impressive!
Title: H4D40 800 ISO Shot
Post by: fredjeang on March 02, 2010, 06:24:35 pm
Quote from: Dick Roadnight
David...

Next time you find yourself in front of a nice landscape, take a picture with a tripod, MLU and an HD4-60. (Or send me the camera and let me do it).

Dick
I think the David's picture is also interesting as well exactly because the way it was taken. Your point is that you want to see a sample taken in "proper" conditions, wich would be tripod, mlu and timer. I understand and agree...But, it is also interesting to see what can be expected in "unproper" conditions like in this case.
In the way, the David pic is saying: that is the worst you can have.
And that is pretty impressive I think.

Thank David for this sample.

Fred.
Title: H4D40 800 ISO Shot
Post by: David Grover / Capture One on March 03, 2010, 02:20:44 am
Quote from: fredjeang
I think the David's picture is also interesting as well exactly because the way it was taken. Your point is that you want to see a sample taken in "proper" conditions, wich would be tripod, mlu and timer. I understand and agree...But, it is also interesting to see what can be expected in "unproper" conditions like in this case.
In the way, the David pic is saying: that is the worst you can have.
And that is pretty impressive I think.

Thank David for this sample.

Fred.

It was definitely the worst as especially I am not too keen on heights and didn't have a neck strap on the camera!  The H4D was balanced on the glass wall at the end of the rooftop bar.  You can see it in the attached image.

But yes, good point.  I have no doubt with MLU, tripod etc etc, the 31,39,40,50 and 60 would all produce stunning results.

D
Title: H4D40 800 ISO Shot
Post by: Dick Roadnight on March 03, 2010, 11:18:32 am
Quote from: David Grover / Hasselblad
It was definitely the worst as especially I am not too keen on heights and didn't have a neck strap on the camera!  The H4D was balanced on the glass wall at the end of the rooftop bar.  You can see it in the attached image.

But yes, good point.  I have no doubt with MLU, tripod etc etc, the 31,39,40,50 and 60 would all produce stunning results.

D
...yes - you are keen to show that it will do a good job hand held at night, but some of us want to know how the 60 (@ 50 asa) compares to a good 10 * 8 shot.

You are, presumably, one of the few who has had the privilege of using an H4D-60.
Title: H4D40 800 ISO Shot
Post by: David Grover / Capture One on March 03, 2010, 12:12:02 pm
Quote from: Dick Roadnight
...yes - you are keen to show that it will do a good job hand held at night, but some of us want to know how the 60 (@ 50 asa) compares to a good 10 * 8 shot.

You are, presumably, one of the few who has had the privilege of using an H4D-60.

Dick,

10MP aside, I would not expect you to see anything remarkably different to the camera you already own?

David
Title: H4D40 800 ISO Shot
Post by: Dick Roadnight on March 03, 2010, 04:56:18 pm
Quote from: David Grover / Hasselblad
Dick,

10MP aside, I would not expect you to see anything remarkably different to the camera you already own?

David

Is this the sales department talking?
The 60 has APL and
much better auto-focus
( but I should be able to get good auto-focus using the extra focus light on my Metz flashes)
...but one thing thay I look forward to is being able to
fill the width of a 24" (7900) printer @ 360ppi
or to print 24 * 36" @240ppi
or, with a single row stitching back, print 24" * whatever
without scaling or up-rezing.

Fortunately I have the option to upgrade without spending a fortune.

I think the the upgrade from phocus to phocus 2 make more difference than the extra 10 Mpx. but I  have that already.
Title: H4D40 800 ISO Shot
Post by: Nick-T on March 03, 2010, 05:02:12 pm
Quote from: Dick Roadnight
The 60 has APL and

Australian Pork Limited?
Title: H4D40 800 ISO Shot
Post by: Dick Roadnight on March 03, 2010, 05:12:47 pm
Quote from: Nick-T
Australian Pork Limited?
Auto Phcous Lock, for focus and re-compose.
Title: H4D40 800 ISO Shot
Post by: David Grover / Capture One on March 04, 2010, 02:01:56 am
Quote from: Dick Roadnight
Is this the sales department talking?
The 60 has APL and
much better auto-focus
( but I should be able to get good auto-focus using the extra focus light on my Metz flashes)
...but one thing thay I look forward to is being able to
fill the width of a 24" (7900) printer @ 360ppi
or to print 24 * 36" @240ppi
or, with a single row stitching back, print 24" * whatever
without scaling or up-rezing.

Fortunately I have the option to upgrade without spending a fortune.

I think the the upgrade from phocus to phocus 2 make more difference than the extra 10 Mpx. but I  have that already.

Dick,

The AF is the same on the H4D40, 50 and 60.

Also I would not expect True Focus to give you a benefit on a Landscape image.. unless you were focussing on something closer in the foreground at a wide open aperture.

24" wide is a walk in the park for your 50MP.

David

Title: H4D40 800 ISO Shot
Post by: Dick Roadnight on March 04, 2010, 03:54:28 am
Quote from: David Grover / Hasselblad
Dick,

The AF is the same on the H4D40, 50 and 60.

Also I would not expect True Focus to give you a benefit on a Landscape image.. unless you were focussing on something closer in the foreground at a wide open aperture.

24" wide is a walk in the park for your 50MP.

David
Many of the benefits of the H4 will make no difference when I use the back on a view camera, but I do also do dance photography, people and some general point-and-shoot photography.

I have used an H4D-40, and the AF is much better than my H3D11-50, with or without modeling lights.