Luminous Landscape Forum
Site & Board Matters => About This Site => Topic started by: WaitingForAnR10 on February 02, 2010, 08:51:08 am
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I had the same experience in Toronto a few years back. The queue (and it was a queue, sort of) snaked about a kilometer in front of the security screening area. When flights were close to leaving, people came out and grabbed passengers out of the line and led them through to be screened. It was a total mess.
I live north of Boston, MA, and travel occasionally to see family north of Toronto. For the last two years I've driven rather than flown. Ironically, with the accumulation of delays for getting to and from the airport, security, etc., it only takes us an extra three hours. However, it's much more pleasant, the scenery is better, and we have our car when we arrive. We've been driving up via the Thousand Island Bridge, which boasts some very nice scenery. Two summers ago we stopped at Niagara Falls for a few hours to do some sightseeing, something difficult to do when you fly. Not really tempted to return to the airport again.
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Canada: Bring back the train........ with a bit of subsidy from our govt. it could be affordable
Lars451
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And don't forget you can always fly via Porter Airlines (http://www.flyporter.com/), which is one of the sanest flying experiences on the continent. Unfortunately, there are only a few U.S. destinations (Boston/Chicago/Myrtle Beach/New York). You'll pay more in the end connecting through those cities, but you get what you pay for.
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Maybe once those businesses on the other side of security, the ones that folks need to rush past, start to go bankrupt then GTAA may start to get the message.
I flew to Miami from Pearson in early Jan and went through the whole shebang, but fortunately it wasn't at a busy time and the delay wasn't substantial, but I've heard lots of other more typical experiences that mirror Michael's. I wonder when the full body scans will go into production (I think Pearson has 2) - probably a drop in the bucket in terms of solving the problem.
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http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/01/24/body_scanner_fail/ (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/01/24/body_scanner_fail/) shows how in-effective these scanners are, and from what we're told, the scanners that Canada has bought wouldn't have stopped the pants bomber anyhow.
What will help is to ditch the security theatre, and actually do real security, which for the most part happens behind the scenes and we neither see nor hear about at, as that would reduce it's effectiveness.
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http://vi.sualize.us/view/nkempinski/b4414...9455f297a58c8c/ (http://vi.sualize.us/view/nkempinski/b4414ff3df3b45bedf9455f297a58c8c/)
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What will help is to ditch the security theatre, and actually do real security, which for the most part happens behind the scenes and we neither see nor hear about at, as that would reduce it's effectiveness.
... and what makes you think 'they' aren't doing 'real security'? We need both theater and 'real' security, IMO.
I imagine we have seen an incredible uptick in 'real' security in the last 10 years ... but 99% of that stuff happens nowhere near the airport and you never hear about it.
It has clearly been pretty effective, but the true cost to our freedoms and principles won't be tallied for some time.
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The security has lost the plot, and is spending its time chasing the most ridiculous things.
Last year a friend had a knife brochure confiscated, because it contained a picture of a knife.
Last month another friend had his book, a novel, confiscated because there was a picture of a gun on the cover.
Problem is, confront them on the insanity of such things and one is sure to miss one's flight (whilst sitting in a holding cubicle).
I recently had to endure the rantings of a Canadian airport security officer, who, at the top of his voice, proclaimed to all that
he had found a knife in my luggage. I knew I had no knife, I'm not that crazy to fly with one. He went off, holding my bag aloft,
telling everyone of his find. Of course, by the time he had got to the bottom of my bag he found my little Giottos folding
mini-pod, in a pouch. Oops. Thing is, he was so focussed on his supposed find, that he failed to search anything else, or me,
or my wife.
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Before last December I fly internationally through pearson which requires you to go through a different security area bypassing the immigrations hall. The security guard responsible for the x-ray scanner did not even look at the scanner as my full sized backpack with camera equipment passed through. And on the other side of security was.. the same departure gate area.
If someone wanted to sneak something onto a plan, they could just get someone going through international departures to carry it through and meet them on the departures gate. in effect, the U.S. security has a loophole. or atleast it did before December.
I was planning on visiting my friend in LA this spring. I guess I'll cancel that trip and find another country to spend my vacation time in.
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"The Fifth Estate", a Canadian investigative news TV program did a piece on airport security recently. The hour-long show confirmed that even the experts are saying: "We're no safer. The only effect of increased airport security is the harassment and delay of air travellers." To which I'd add "And the enrichment of the so-called security industry"
I had my lighter confiscated by airport security recently. It was immediately returned to me in a small ziploc bag. That's MUCH safer.
Anyone had their Giottos squeeze bulb air blower investigated? That's just what we need in our carry-on, right? A lens cleaner in the form of a rubber cartoon bomb.
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The security has lost the plot, and is spending its time chasing the most ridiculous things.
Last year a friend had a knife brochure confiscated, because it contained a picture of a knife.
Last month another friend had his book, a novel, confiscated because there was a picture of a gun on the cover.
Problem is, confront them on the insanity of such things and one is sure to miss one's flight (whilst sitting in a holding cubicle).
I recently had to endure the rantings of a Canadian airport security officer, who, at the top of his voice, proclaimed to all that
he had found a knife in my luggage. I knew I had no knife, I'm not that crazy to fly with one. He went off, holding my bag aloft,
telling everyone of his find. Of course, by the time he had got to the bottom of my bag he found my little Giottos folding
mini-pod, in a pouch. Oops. Thing is, he was so focussed on his supposed find, that he failed to search anything else, or me,
or my wife.
Please, please, please tell me you're kidding.
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Mike,
A few observations. I used to work for a company based in Oakville, ON, and after flying through Pearson initially, I ended up driving to meetings from my home just north of New York City. With all of the wait time, driving was just as fast (7 hours). And since there is no baggage restriction when you drive, I always had my camera equipment with me!
Secondly, due to the outrageous travel taxes Canada charges US flights, you will find driving to Buffalo and flying out of there to be a lot cheaper.
Finally, I don't think the problem is specifically with the GTAA, but with the national government. Once coming back to the US on the Lewiston-Queenston Bridge, we were stopped by Canadian customs for a while. Apparently, according to the news, their union was in negotiations with the government, and they decided to halt everyone going to the US as a labor action! So, perhaps the jam-up at Pearson may be do to a similar labor situation, not the authorities.
Now, the Canadian government has eastern New Yorkers upset. They want us to build a large customs station at the border on the New York-to-Montréal Amtrak rail line and require all passengers and their luggage to disembark for a 100% search. Processed passengers can then reembark, and the train will proceed to Montréal. This is probably the only rail line fast enough between the countries for business people to consider, and the Canadian government wants to destroy that connection. Rail travel to and from New York State and Toronto is not very practical, because there is an hours' long stop for tourists at Niagara Falls.
Regards,
Bill VN
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Mike,
... Rail travel to and from New York State and Toronto is not very practical, because there is an hours' long stop for tourists at Niagara Falls.
Regards,
Bill VN
Bill,
My daughter used to take that train when she lived in Toronto, and the two hour stop in Niagara Falls is not for tourists - it's for immigration and customs. Yes it takes that long to process everyone on the train coming into the US or Canada. They build it into the schedule. But at least she didn't have to get off the train per the Montreal proposal - the officers sweep through the train.
Back in the pre-Amtrak days (1970), I took a train from St. Paul to Winnipeg. In those days, the customs officers were through the train in five minutes. But that was a different era.
Carl
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Michael,
Maureen and I flew with Porter to NYC between xmas and New Years. It was the same hassle however, one airline at the terminal makes it easier. For those who are not aware, they fly from Toronto Island and their planes are driven by propeller but they are fast. almost as fast as a bigger carrier jet.
Porter does connect in Chicago to multiple destinations.
I highly recommend you give them a try.
Otherwise yes, Buffalo is the solution
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Serious question, how much do air taxi flights cost? I'd love the idea of pulling up to a private airfield, hopping into a 4 seater with my wife and then flying over. No it won't be as comfortable and no airline meals, I'll still bet you would arrive before the first class passengers having to transverse that nightmare and who probably paid just as much for one ticket - get on their airliner. Can it be that expensive if the air taxi doesn't have to land at a major hub (take a taxi there)? I've little to no idea about this kind of thing.
I've no idea if it would be but I know one thing, if I read that article and had a small plane, I'd know that this was the time to cash in...
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Maybe you just had a bad experience Michael? Before you jump down my throat, I was one of those people contributing to these forums about my alarm regarding the no carry on thing that went on for a while, because I had an impending trip to Miami.
I went on Monday 25th Jan and returned on Friday 29th Jan. It was a breeze. Pearson took about 20 minutes longer than usual and other than multiple security checkpoints, (what's this thing about putting your hands in your pockets and then having a sensor waved over them?) I experienced nothing out of the ordinary. Staff were courtious and polite, even joking at times - the only a**hole was the U.S. customs guy who was really surly, but that's the luck of the draw anywhere. It took me as long to get out of Miami as it did to get out of Pearson. The security was very lax in comparison, but many people were held up for proof of residency documents. It seems they were more concerned with immigration issues than security.
One of us had an experience that was out of the ordinary. I do hope it was you. Cheers.
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Serious question, how much do air taxi flights cost? I'd love the idea of pulling up to a private airfield, hopping into a 4 seater with my wife and then flying over. No it won't be as comfortable and no airline meals, I'll still bet you would arrive before the first class passengers having to transverse that nightmare and who probably paid just as much for one ticket - get on their airliner. Can it be that expensive if the air taxi doesn't have to land at a major hub (take a taxi there)? I've little to no idea about this kind of thing.
My spouse is part owner of a small (4-seat) plane, so I have a good idea of the cost of flying small planes. Prices vary of course, but in general the fuel and other operating costs for small single-engine planes are very roughly as much as two first-class seats for short or medium-short domestic flights. Add on the pilot's time, and it's not cheap.
Also, if you fly over international borders, there are complications. You have to fly into specific airports that have customs agents, and wait in the plane (and you can't get out for bathroom stops) until a customs agent gets around to coming out to check you, which may be minutes or may be hours. At least that's how another pilot friend of ours described it (he did it a couple of times). We haven't tried it after hearing about his experience with it.
Sorry, Ben. Not a great option either.
Lisa
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Note to self: Never piss off Michael
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A simple solution: body scanners, cctv and security checks for anyone approaching mailboxes. Good for the industry. Good for unemployment.
And of course, harass photographers who shoot pictures of mailboxes, especially if they are using T/S lenses. For all we know, they could be planning a terrorist act.
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I used to work for the TSA. I can tell you first hand that for every security measure taken, there are 10 ways around it. It's complete security theater. It's been a couple of years since then so maybe things have changed, but I highly doubt it. Like the mailbox that Michael mentioned, I always considered the baggage claim area to be a major security hole.
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Another vote for train travel. I live in NYC and said goodbye to my car last year when I moved here. I haven't flown in three years and take the train whenever I can. The bus is the other mode I take. People without a lot of dough ride the bus. It's slow but very affordable.
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Isn't it generally true that people go to work for the government so they do not have to think? They just follow a manual, no concern as to whether it makes any sense or not?
Everyone seems to have a story about how they accidentally smuggle something in.
Mine is this - I have a big rolling laptop bag. I flew from Sacramento to Burbank in the morning. Just the normal useless laptop in its own bin.
In the evening, going through security in Burbank for the return trip, TSA says "we'll have to inspect this bag." Then he undoes a couple of zippers and reaches down in it, and presto there is my leatherman I lost about a year ago! "You plan on flying with this?" "Well, no, I didn't plan to, but I did this morning!" Actually they were super nice about it, and my travel companion checked her bag, with my leatherman, so I didn't have to throw it away.
Good thing I didn't know it was in there eh? First I would have dispatched all the passengers. Then I unscrew the hinges on the cockpit door (with the handy screwdriver part). Or I just saw the dang door right off with the 3" saw. HA HA! It is I, the Leatherman Terrorist! Prepare to be multi-tooled to death! I use the pliers to disengage the autopilot....
Friend of mine went through security in LAX. He was going hunting in Mexico. Sat down in the plastic chairs, reached into his bag for his book, and there's a pistol clip full of 9mm bullets. Just about shat hisself. He didn't want the airport shut down, so he put it in a paper food bag, and dumped it in a garbage can.
If all these WMD's are getting through accidentally, what could happen with people that are trying?
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Isn't it generally true that people go to work for the government so they do not have to think? They just follow a manual, no concern as to whether it makes any sense or not?
?? No. At least not if you plan on going anywhere in your career, just the same as in the private sector.
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Another vote for train travel...high speed rail.
When in Europe, i would almost never fly.
As for working for the govt - evidently brain washing occurs in the private sector/corporate world equally.
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One thing is for sure, the current take on security is ridiculous IMO. It is not only that it is weird so much money is spent on airport security and the way it is conducted is basically only aggravating to the people they pretend to protect without providing a lot of real security and still allowing giant holes.
It seems the only action feared is things happening on board of airplanes...
It is so ridiculous, you would not even know where to begin. Sad thing is that whatever you do, say, post or whatever this seems only to get worse. Chances are higher you get killed by an overambitious airport security officer believing you are a terrorist than actual terrorists. My biggest fear at airports today are the people that are supposed to protect me, the people that get paid from the money we provide by flying in the first place.
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Well the situation is really ridiculous - so much that here in Germany we had Harald Schmid (who is doing a satirical night show - pretty much like letterman in the US) recently made a joke on this:
According to the new regulations and standards passengers with their own natural teeth are supposed to be banned from Airplanes as they could bite the pilot. So people should only be allowed to
enter an airplane if they have taken out their teeth and checked them in with their luggage.
I add - well this is really opening some new job advantages for older people, as younger people with their complete teeth will not be able to fly anmore, board meetings will happen much more calmly (average age about 80+)
and the secretary will offer any attendants a glass with a teeth cleaning tablet, talks could be like: damn I can´t speak today because my teeth never left o`hare , they lost my luggage, again.....etc.pp.
So attention kids: if you wanna make career - don´t brush your teeth anymore !
As the Monthy python sung in Life of Brian: just look at the bright side of life, dam di dam didamdidam didam
Greetings from Munich
Stefan
One thing is for sure, the current take on security is ridiculous IMO. It is not only that it is weird so much money is spent on airport security and the way it is conducted is basically only aggravating to the people they pretend to protect without providing a lot of real security and still allowing giant holes.
It seems the only action feared is things happening on board of airplanes...
It is so ridiculous, you would not even know where to begin. Sad thing is that whatever you do, say, post or whatever this seems only to get worse. Chances are higher you get killed by an overambitious airport security officer believing you are a terrorist than actual terrorists. My biggest fear at airports today are the people that are supposed to protect me, the people that get paid from the money we provide by flying in the first place.
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Toronto is not alone... the Calgary airport has the same issues, with ridiculously long delays caused by US Customs and Immigration being located in the airport. It's funny that no other country on the planet feels the need to locate their Customs personnel on foreign soil... if Canada simply kicked these people out of our airports, it would solve most of our security problems.
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The problem is not US Customs pre-clearnace, which is nice because it means that after your long flight to somewhere in the USA you can just walk off the plane and get your car or whatever without a long line-up to go through customs. The problem is the security in-efficiencies and ludicrous protocols.
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Here's an alternate way to help keep your checked luggage more secure :>))
http://lifehacker.com/5448014/pack-a-gun-t...e-theft-or-loss (http://lifehacker.com/5448014/pack-a-gun-to-protect-valuables-from-airline-theft-or-loss)
Mark
www.marktomalty.com
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The problem is not US Customs pre-clearnace, which is nice because it means that after your long flight to somewhere in the USA you can just walk off the plane and get your car or whatever without a long line-up to go through customs. The problem is the security in-efficiencies and ludicrous protocols.
You're right, but it goes much deeper than that. We've had decades to plan for "peak-loading" high-alert situations with added layers of scrutiny, but the evidence shows that our planners and bureaucrats have done very little to anticipate these eventualities and be ready to handle them without creating massive chaos. Instead, what we are seeing in Canadian airports is a fundamental systemic failure of planning for operational emergencies. Instead, their priorities have been to save money on staffing and maximize revenue from concessions; as well, the basic design of these airports obviously under-estimated security requirements going forward and, from all information gleaned on television recently, there would appear to be considerable confusion amongst the myriad of agencies between which various responsibilities are allocated in ill-defined ways; so we are poorly served in terms of organization, space and people to ramp up the procedures when the threat situation is perceived to have increased. I don't think under current conditions one could sustain a credible argument that we don't need systems to insure that people aren't carrying weapons into aircraft; but what we do need sre smart systems, tightly administered and adequately resourced - and this is what we don't have. The economic cost to the country of this bureaucratic disfunctionality must be extraordinarily high, but there is no incentive/disincentive structure in place for anyone responsible for anything that matters to minimize it. People will stand in line for hours to board their aircraft, flights will be delayed and cancelled, and the people so-called managing these processes will still collect their paycheques as if nothing was wrong.
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Just came back from 3 weeks in India - the Frankfort Airport currently is on my "list" of airports to avoid. We flew from Trivandrum (normal security) to Mumbai where we had to go through security twice because the regional carriers fly into one airport and leave out of another. When we got to Frankfort we had to deplane so our plane could be serviced after the 8 hour flight. They had us go down a closed hallway down to another closed hallway - there was no way any of us could have gone to the "outside world" - no places to eat, NO contact with anyone else. (Fortunately there was a restroom). They "herded" us down the hallway and through TWO lines of security where they x-rayed everything again, padded us down and went through everything in our carry on. Problem was there were two big planes the one I was on and one from Delhi - making right at 700 passengers. We had been screened carefully in Mumbai x 2 and could not have had anyone hand us anything or gotten anything to add to our "stuff" = now here's the big part - would you believe it took FIVE HOURS to clear that security check point. And as soon as we cleared it we had to go back on the plane - making us 4 hours late leaving Frankfort. I felt particularly bad for the elderly as well as the small children.
I had just flown through Frankfort in October coming in on a regional carrier and had nothing like this happen. So beware and watch your connections! Of course we all missed ours out of Chicago.
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Good to know.
I think someone should develop an internet site of "airports to avoid", and make sure the governments and travel industries of all the countries responsible for them get to know it exists.
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I think someone should develop an internet site of "airports to avoid", and make sure the governments and travel industries of all the countries responsible for them get to know it exists.
A list of airports to avoid already exists; you can start here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airports_by_IATA_code:_A).
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The thing is...if something happens in one of these airports, you'll have all those people talking on TV telling everyone how bad security was and how they didn't check people on that plane coming from India.
It sucks, yes...I've been in situations like that a few times...not 5 hours but for a long time. Once at Miami International it took forever and I was on a connection as well...coming from Amsterdam and heading to Costa Rica..I couldn't go anywhere...so why all the screening again??? Yes, it happens everywhere. It seems to me that no country trusts the security on the other countries.
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A list of airports to avoid already exists; you can start here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airports_by_IATA_code:_A).
Interesting Harri - sure is a long list, but doesn't talk about the aggravation factor. I think that element remains for people to add depending on their experience.
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The thing is...if something happens in one of these airports, you'll have all those people talking on TV telling everyone how bad security was and how they didn't check people on that plane coming from India.
It sucks, yes...I've been in situations like that a few times...not 5 hours but for a long time. Once at Miami International it took forever and I was on a connection as well...coming from Amsterdam and heading to Costa Rica..I couldn't go anywhere...so why all the screening again??? Yes, it happens everywhere. It seems to me that no country trusts the security on the other countries.
Of course the issue isn't just planes to and from India. The climate of suspicion, panic and mistrust is by now universal. In this respect the terrorists have the world exactly where they want it, at a tremendous economic cost to economies and individuals the world over. If governments thought about this rationally they would devote far more resources to up-stream detection and more efficient airport security procedures so that less of this nonsense needs to be undertaken so awkwardly at departure points. Just looking at it in terms of our world of photography, I can see many photo trips being cancelled because of airport logistics. I've already done it and I'll think very carefully about embarking on any others until some semblance of sanity returns. Other people are thinking likewise in respect of general business travel, and as aggravation grows and travel decreases the airlines and the travel indutry associations (covering many billions of dollars worth of business) should swing into action and try to knock some rationality into these systems - if they are doing so already, it would seem they need to work harder at it.
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Found it - airport reviews: Skytrax (http://www.airlinequality.com/main/forum.htm) Very interesting stuff here.
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Found it - airport reviews: Skytrax Very interesting stuff here.
Great site (just keep in mind that people who have problems are far more likely to post reviews than people who don't). I see practically everyone there shares my opinion of CDG (Paris).
Thanks
Lisa
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Great site (just keep in mind that people who have problems are far more likely to post reviews than people who don't). I see practically everyone there shares my opinion of CDG (Paris).
Thanks
Lisa
For good reason - it's one of the worst on the planet.
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Oh - one more thing - you're generally right that people are more prone to complain than to endorse, but interestingly on that site, if you look at the relatively good airports, for example Hong Kong, Heathrow Terminal 5, Zurich, Bangkok Suvarnabhumi, Singapore, etc., people do write-in positive reviews of their experience, so it's probably a useful guide, but as always, each person's experience will vary.
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Heathrow is relatively good? News to me. Especially Terminal 5, the official luggage black hole...
I find CDG to be typically french and Frankfurt to be rather silly about security (one check to get into a terminal and another to get into a gate) but at least being Germans they're efficient at it. Trick is to have shoes/boots without metal and a removeable belt buckle so you can just put your bag on the conveyor and walk through. Works in the UK and Germany. Not in France where they made me take every single electrical item out of my bag that contained cameras, laptops, earphones, sundry USB and bluetooth cords, CF cards, etc. Took rather a while and I was running late for my connection.
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The Skytrax posts for Heathrow T5 are better on the whole than those for Frankfurt. I personally haven't used T5 yet, but I've been through T4 umpteen times on BA before T5 was opened and they have never misplaced a piece of my luggage, but this happens with all airports; at the worst of times past in the UK security was thorough but at least polite.
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Arrive early or else (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMRe2tusDhQ).
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The Skytrax posts for Heathrow T5 are better on the whole than those for Frankfurt. I personally haven't used T5 yet, but I've been through T4 umpteen times on BA before T5 was opened and they have never misplaced a piece of my luggage, but this happens with all airports; at the worst of times past in the UK security was thorough but at least polite.
Couldn't care less what reviews show, I fly internationally about 85 times a year, I know what I see and experience...
T5 has a particularly bad reputation for losing luggage on connections.
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OK, good to bear in mind. But how has the security clearance procedure treated you - if you've been through since December 25th?
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An associated Press story:
DALLAS - If you want a pillow and blanket in coach on American Airlines, it's going to cost you.
The airline will charge $8 for a pillow and blanket in coach class for domestic trips and some international flights longer than two hours, beginning May 1. The international flights are to and from Canada, Mexico, Hawaii, the Caribbean and Central America.
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OK, good to bear in mind. But how has the security clearance procedure treated you - if you've been through since December 25th?
I haven't been through since then though I'm flying twice in a couple of weeks, once through Frankfurt and once through Manchester. I haven't heard of there being any significant changes but I'll update.