Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Beginner's Questions => Topic started by: Justan on February 01, 2010, 04:34:45 pm
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I started doing panos recently and want to buy tools to help produce the best results.
Yesterday, courtesy of references from other members, I came across references to “pano heads” used on tripods. The descriptions show that these can be hugely useful tools.
Here are references:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/2936...ramic_Head.html (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/293634-REG/Manfrotto_303_303_QTVR_Panoramic_Head.html)
http://reallyrightstuff.com/pano/index.html (http://reallyrightstuff.com/pano/index.html)
I have some questions about pano heads in general:
A primary utility of pano heads is to reduce or eliminate “image parallax.” How close does the subject need to be for a pano head to be of benefit?
What is your preference in manufacturer and model? I know you get what you pay for but don’t have a sense of who may build a better or worse head assembly for this purpose.
Thanks!
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A primary utility of pano heads is to reduce or eliminate “image parallax.” How close does the subject need to be for a pano head to be of benefit?
Anything not at infinity focus can be troublesome, which varies depending on the focal length you're using (longer makes parallax more noticeable) and how far your non-pano setup rotates from the nodal point, which again depends on the lens you're using and its focal length setting (if it is a zoom). Yes, in some circumstances you can get away with hand-holding or not using a pano head, but a good pano setup makes life much easier when stitching no matter what you shoot.
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I started doing panos recently and want to buy tools to help produce the best results
Before you start spending money on a pano bracket, check out, how often you had problem stitching the pano due to parallax error. It is a relevant issue for example indoor; it may or may not be an issue outdoor.
You can make lots and lots of excellent panos even hand-held. If you have problems, shoot from a tripod. Note, that the plate of swiweling/rotation should be be level, not the camera itself. If there is problem with the stitching or with the result, post it.
If you are really into panos, then spending on the stitcher is more important than the pano bracket (and it costs much less). Decent stitchers are those, which are based on Panorama Tools: PTGui, PTAssembler, Hugin (I am not sure about Autopano Pro).
ADDED
How close does the subject need to be for a pano head to be of benefit?
The problem arizes, when the very same close subject appears in several shots. Otherwise it is often no problem at all. The following example was shot hand-held, from a rock in the water, only a tiny bit above the water level, between the tree you can see at the left edge and the shrub at the right edge. These both were not too big, they fitted in one single frame (each), thus the stitching did not cause any problem.
Pano with 28mm lens on 1.6x cropping camera (http://www.panopeeper.com/panorama/SproatLake_28mm.jpg)
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Before you start spending money on a pano bracket, check out, how often you had problem stitching the pano due to parallax error. It is a relevant issue for example indoor; it may or may not be an issue outdoor.
I don't mean to be disrespectful however what if the best pano opportunity that you have had for many months comes along and you don't use proper pano technique and gear. I almost always carry my pano gear and tripod with me should the opportunity present itself. The cost of not using proper technique to start with could be a lost opportunity should parallax errors present themselves.
I use the RRS gear and love it. I bought the entire setup for both horizontal and vertical shooting.
Kelly
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what if the best pano opportunity that you have had for many months comes along and you don't use proper pano technique and gear
There are settings, which do require accurate shootings. I have my own (self-made) pano bracket and I use it, when I see its relevance. However, this is not necessary generally. I have created several hundred panos, and although I don't have a recording of this aspect, I estimate that the majority of them was shot hand-held.
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I never get tired of posting pictures of my Amazing Panohead.
Besides the Ebay Gitzo 1270 head and a tripod, the total cost was about $8.17 and a quick trip to Home Depot and about an hour of very un-pretty woodworking frenzy. Made of Oak, the poor man's 6061-T6 Aluminum. The vertical beam is attached to the Gitzo head with 1/4-20 carriage bolts, somebody always asks. The three Gitzo adjustments let me trim the rotations quite nicely, please don't ask how but simply believe it's possible. And yes, it holds the beefcake-but-dead D2X rock solid and without a hitch, just try THAT with your Nodal Nebisher or whatever ya got. Harrumph!
[attachment=19925:Bills_Am...Panohead.jpg]
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I have a nodal ninja. It is nice enough but I ended up replacing all of it except the swing arm. I used a kirk rail and an acratech leveling base to complete the kit. But it is a lot of crap to carry if you don't use it. So it tends to live in my trunk.
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Have a look at this website of mine www.timelessjewishart.com (http://www.timelessjewishart.com) almost all stitched, many multi row stitches, not one single one used a nodal slide or a pano head in the traditional sense. The only problem I ever had with parralex was with a stitch of a window shot with a 50mm lens and a distance of less than a yard from the subject with not quite enough overlap otherwise the program would have got it even then.
I use Autopano Pro and find it far better than PTGUI for negating the need for all these expensive and not particularly stable gadgets. People love to make life difficult for themselves...
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I shoot most of my panos with a 70-200 these days - most often at about 105mm, but I use the whole range.
I shoot mostly single row panos - both vertical and horizontal.
I have found it useful to figure out where the entrance pupil of the lens is at various focal lengths and while I don't have true pano head, I use my Giotto ball head with a leveling base and try to position the camera so it will rotate on a flat base as close to the entrance pupil as I can.
With today's software (I use AutopanoPro and CS4), I find that a truly level base for rotation helps a whole lot and I have very, very few panos that won't stitch right up.
I think were I to start doing multi-row panos, I would buy a pano head ... but given than a single row pano gives me 350dpi at my largest print size (12x18), I'm happy for now.
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Anything not at infinity focus can be troublesome...
Thanks!
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> Before you start spending money on a pano bracket, check out, how often you had problem stitching the pano due to parallax error. It is a relevant issue for example indoor; it may or may not be an issue outdoor.
Thanks, this adds to the previous comment. I had one instance where this became a problem. I was shooting with a focal point about 30’ or so in the distance and the differences between the stitches couldn’t be well resolved by CS3
> If you are really into panos, then spending on the stitcher is more important than the pano bracket (and it costs much less). Decent stitchers are those, which are based on Panorama Tools: PTGui, PTAssembler, Hugin (I am not sure about Autopano Pro).
Stitching software is something I want to learn more about. What are the key features to look for? While I haven’t done it yet, I can see multiple row stitches will come into the formula. I'm also very interested in learning more about the techniques in stitching, shooting with stitching as the intended goal, and some of the processing techniques,. The key gremlin other than the 1x experience with parallax distortion so far is due to the unavoidable variables in lighting when shooting panos in daylight.
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> if the best pano opportunity that you have had for many months comes along and you don't use proper pano technique and gear. I almost always carry my pano gear and tripod with me should the opportunity present itself.
> I use the RRS gear and love it. I bought the entire setup for both horizontal and vertical shooting.
Thanks! I agree it’s better to have it and not need it rather than the other way around.
In my brief research the RRS folks do more to explain the tools others.
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I never get tired of posting pictures of my Amazing Panohead.
Besides the Ebay Gitzo 1270 head and a tripod, the total cost was about $8.17 and a quick trip to Home Depot and about an hour of very un-pretty woodworking frenzy. Made of Oak, the poor man's 6061-T6 Aluminum. The vertical beam is attached to the Gitzo head with 1/4-20 carriage bolts, somebody always asks. The three Gitzo adjustments let me trim the rotations quite nicely, please don't ask how but simply believe it's possible. And yes, it holds the beefcake-but-dead D2X rock solid and without a hitch, just try THAT with your Nodal Nebisher or whatever ya got. Harrumph!
[attachment=19925:Bills_Am...Panohead.jpg]
Brilliant! This idea briefly crossed my mind but thought I’d need to get my hands on one to model it properly. And then due to my relentless work load it’s easier to spend some $$ than to carve out the time to screw around for a few hours. But I have a buddy that’s an engineer with a wood shop and too much free time.
In the left image you can see a number of holes in the section to which the camera mounts. What are these based on?
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I have a nodal ninja. It is nice enough but I ended up replacing all of it except the swing arm. I used a kirk rail and an acratech leveling base to complete the kit. But it is a lot of crap to carry if you don't use it. So it tends to live in my trunk.
Thanks for this and also the suggestion to start a separate thread!
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Have a look at this website of mine www.timelessjewishart.com (http://www.timelessjewishart.com) almost all stitched, many multi row stitches, not one single one used a nodal slide or a pano head in the traditional sense. The only problem I ever had with parralex was with a stitch of a window shot with a 50mm lens and a distance of less than a yard from the subject with not quite enough overlap otherwise the program would have got it even then.
I use Autopano Pro and find it far better than PTGUI for negating the need for all these expensive and not particularly stable gadgets. People love to make life difficult for themselves...
This is timely. One of the projects I wanna do is of synagogues in some nearby towns.
Your web site (as is the case with others here) has a lot of really nice works!
Thanks!
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I shoot most of my panos with a 70-200 these days - most often at about 105mm, but I use the whole range.
I shoot mostly single row panos - both vertical and horizontal.
I have found it useful to figure out where the entrance pupil of the lens is at various focal lengths and while I don't have true pano head, I use my Giotto ball head with a leveling base and try to position the camera so it will rotate on a flat base as close to the entrance pupil as I can.
With today's software (I use AutopanoPro and CS4), I find that a truly level base for rotation helps a whole lot and I have very, very few panos that won't stitch right up.
I think were I to start doing multi-row panos, I would buy a pano head ... but given than a single row pano gives me 350dpi at my largest print size (12x18), I'm happy for now.
Thanks! So far I've used similar focal lengths. The 70 mm end of the zoom is dang near perfect for most work but longer lenses come in very handy. I've done one experiment doing a pano in much tighter quarters and that literally lead to this discussion
One of the things I delight at about pano shooting is the massive amount of detail, especially in the background. In fact the biggest complaint I have is that printing them to their ability is beyond the limits of my mat making equipment. It’s another topic but mounting, framing, and safely transporting works which are around 2’ x 7’ is fairly involved, requires a lot of space and careful handling.
In a couple of studies the camera was slightly off level and the end result was leveling after the fact and then needing to crop off parts of the pan. It worked out okay but added a bit to the work flow.
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This is timely. One of the projects I wanna do is of synagogues in some nearby towns.
Your web site (as is the case with others here) has a lot of really nice works!
Thanks!
If you're shooting indoors then I wouldn't do it without a nodal slide, you'll also need less stability than outdoors so those dual axis pano setups shouldn't be too much of a problem. Keep in mind that if you're shooting for architectural type work you want to use a longer lens for less width, you can't do a rectilinear/planar stitch (where all lines are straight) with a stitch wider than 120 degrees (14mm on FF) personally I believe it's nearer 80 degrees (28mm on FF) then use the horizon tool in the stitching program to fix the vertical/horizontal perspective. Keep in mind that photoshop is a joke of a stitching program for when you need real control. Both Autopano Pro and PTGUI are made for doing the kind of complicated stitching needed for architecture.
Another though much more expensive solution for architecture might be to use a DSLR adaptor to LF and a digitar type lens. You will get movements, flat stitching (no need for complicated stitching programs, problems with rectiliniear angles, etc). Personally if I needed more accurate stitching for architecture (commercial level) that is the solution I'd be using, a cambo or something with a high megapixel, decently implemented LV camera. A cheaper solution would be to use a t/s lens but then you don't get that much stitch and by the time you've straightened perspective in PS you've lost any resolution advantage.
Question to those using nodal slides, are you using primes? Seems to me that working out the nodal point for all focal lengths of a zoom would be a royal pain in the neck. I use a zoom without nodal but I'm not shooting indoors where it matters.
I made a youtube video a while back showing how to shoot pano's without being crippled with the 'keep horizon in centre' nonsense, another widely held pano myth. I deleted it but if I can find it I'll put it back up and link to it.
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Seems to me that working out the nodal point for all focal lengths of a zoom would be a royal pain in the neck.
Indeed it would ... fortunately some folks have done the work and shared ...
I wish I remembered where I found this ... but I don't ... enjoy!!
http://photography.jeremypayne.net/web/entrance%20pupils.xls (http://photography.jeremypayne.net/web/entrance%20pupils.xls)
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OK, this is a video I made with my wife's p&s held in one hand to show someone who requested to see how I stitched specifically for the kind of thing I'm shooting. It addresses both shooting non level and not using nodal slides outdoors. Please excuse the quality and background, I did it on my balcony mid building work and everything looks like a bomb site!
Please keep in mind that my methods are specific to my output, using focal lengths longer than 50mm when shooting, producing outdoor rectilinear stitching and a final stitched FOV aiming for 45 degrees (50mm 'normal' perspective). If I was shooting indoors I'd be using nodal and primes (possibly just using t/s lenses or 4X5 adapted given how untrusting I am of these unweildy dual axis rigs).
A last point for those who might flame me for having contrary views to those of the generally held pano community, I've shown how I do it and have the pictures to prove that it works...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrfTR5GCHZo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrfTR5GCHZo)
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hello Justan,
If you use a tripod often and like to buy something wel made- i would go for the RRS solution.
In fact I have the same equipment used on the video of Ben Rubenstein.
If you add one more attibute you can set your nodal point for every lens in about 1 minute and make perfect horizontal panorama's
The manfrott/bogen stuff is not very intersting.
THE RRS system is far well made and more clever-
the basis is the L-Bracket.
When I am up in the moantains without tripod - I use my finger to be tripod.
I put my finger under the nodalpoint and turn the camera while making the pano.
It works perfect. ( pixel perfect on a D3x Nikon)
cheers ,
Pieter Kers
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As a matter of interest are there tables of nodal points for popular lenses?
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As a matter of interest are there tables of nodal points for popular lenses?
Look back a few posts.
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Sorry Jeremy, missed that post. You don't happen to have one for canon by any chance?
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You don't happen to have one for canon by any chance?
Hi Ben,
It's not that hard to determine it yourself, and better yet also take the camera mounting position into account. I use a small table of settings for my lenses on my RRS setup which also incorporates the different positioning offsets between landscape and portrait orientation (due to an offset in the camera L-bracket). Just a table of camera orientation and various lenses with the displacements I need to set on the various bars using my favorite camera mounting orientation (vertical bar on the left).
Cheers,
Bart
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Sorry Jeremy, missed that post. You don't happen to have one for canon by any chance?
Just found this ...
http://wiki.panotools.org/Entrance_Pupil_Database (http://wiki.panotools.org/Entrance_Pupil_Database)
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I really enjoy taking panos.
I've found that outdoors most of the panos can be taken without any problems handheld. I use the tripod only if I need it for the shutter speed.
Indoors things change as you usually have things near the camera and they appear on several frames making the stitching more difficult.
In terms of software I found PtGui pro, Hugin and PtAssembler to be ahead of AutopanoPro and the others.
Luis
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Martin Schweda has a collection of selfmade panorama hardware at his german/english blog: http://www.360und180.de (http://www.360und180.de)
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If you're shooting indoors then I wouldn't do it without a nodal slide, you'll also need less stability than outdoors so those dual axis pano setups shouldn't be too much of a problem. Keep in mind that if you're shooting for architectural type work you want to use a longer lens for less width, you can't do a rectilinear/planar stitch (where all lines are straight) with a stitch wider than 120 degrees (14mm on FF) personally I believe it's nearer 80 degrees (28mm on FF) then use the horizon tool in the stitching program to fix the vertical/horizontal perspective. Keep in mind that photoshop is a joke of a stitching program for when you need real control. Both Autopano Pro and PTGUI are made for doing the kind of complicated stitching needed for architecture.
Another though much more expensive solution for architecture might be to use a DSLR adaptor to LF and a digitar type lens. You will get movements, flat stitching (no need for complicated stitching programs, problems with rectiliniear angles, etc). Personally if I needed more accurate stitching for architecture (commercial level) that is the solution I'd be using, a cambo or something with a high megapixel, decently implemented LV camera. A cheaper solution would be to use a t/s lens but then you don't get that much stitch and by the time you've straightened perspective in PS you've lost any resolution advantage.
Question to those using nodal slides, are you using primes? Seems to me that working out the nodal point for all focal lengths of a zoom would be a royal pain in the neck. I use a zoom without nodal but I'm not shooting indoors where it matters.
I made a youtube video a while back showing how to shoot pano's without being crippled with the 'keep horizon in centre' nonsense, another widely held pano myth. I deleted it but if I can find it I'll put it back up and link to it.
Thanks for this information - I looked at the video and it did a fine job of explaining. I truly appreciate the effort to post and link that!
This weekend I hope to get some time to work out the details for making a pano head similar to what BillT illustrated. It sounds as if once the details are worked out the assembly itself is fairly straight forward. I contacted my buddy with a wood shop and he said he’s game to do wood working.
I also saw a used pano head at a local retail store. Didn’t write down the manufacturer. It appears very ruggedly built but is a fairly heavy contraption. Based on weight I'm guessing it was made for MF. They only want $350 for it and the sales guy was hinting at discounts.
Haven’t tried multi row panos as PS didn’t provide a way of doing it, but can see it’s vital for interior shots.
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Indeed it would ... fortunately some folks have done the work and shared ...
I wish I remembered where I found this ... but I don't ... enjoy!!
http://photography.jeremypayne.net/web/entrance%20pupils.xls (http://photography.jeremypayne.net/web/entrance%20pupils.xls)
Thanks! These charts take a lot of the work out of the process!
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Martin Schweda has a collection of selfmade panorama hardware at his german/english blog: http://www.360und180.de (http://www.360und180.de)
I dunno if it's just me but every time i open the site, after a few seconds it redirects my browser. Anyone else experience this?
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I use Autopano Pro and find it far better than PTGUI for negating the need for all these expensive and not particularly stable gadgets. People love to make life difficult for themselves...
I looked at the Autopano Pro site and have a question about this and similar products. While I understand this is far advanced of what PS does for panos, does this replace PS entirely or is it used in addition to?
And related, to above I'm not at all certain about work flow when doing panos. So far I've done minimal workup in RAW and then open in PS to merge and complete. The question is: Do people do the workup on raw files, then convert & stitch? Or???
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I really enjoy taking panos....
In terms of software I found PtGui pro, Hugin and PtAssembler to be ahead of AutopanoPro and the others.
Luis
How do they differ? How does one come to make an educated decision without trying all the top contenders??
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How do they differ? How does one come to make an educated decision without trying all the top contenders??
By trying them all
No, just kidding, but nevertheless with a serious undertone. Seriously, Hugin and PTAssembler are not expensive (in fact Hugin is free). PTAssembler is Windows only, unless you run Parallels on a Mac I suppose. So start there and then with the knowledge about that look at what others have to say about e.g. PTGui (and remember, people tend to defend their own choices, not necessarily the best product ...).
They all have different benefits and weaker points, and it depends on you particular needs which one serves your needs best. Actually many people end up by using several of them, whatever the particular need and easy workflow dictates.
Cheers,
Bart
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Justan, you can make a pano from raw file to finished cropped HDR image in a pano program. I wouldn't advise it though. I process the RAW files using ACR for max DR, etc. I export 16 bit TIFF's and load those into Autopanopro. I make the pano and save. I then take the finished pano back into ACR, crop and do as much work as possible before sending to photoshop for layers, etc. Because all the basic work is done in ACR I usually manage to finish an image with only 4-6 layers, half of which is just the B&W conversion, etc.
This photo was incredibly hard to process for, it was too wide an angle for the rectilinear pano I made from it. I did it in autopanopro and ptgui. Ptgui gave a less distorted result, slightly, but the finished file, from 7 frames, was only 11 megapixels. The Autopano image was 35 megapixels and I fixed the worst of the distortion in PS.
In other words, download a trial of both, try it on a good trial pano, see which one floats your boat.
(http://www.timelessjewishart.com/pics/Jerusalem/Bigger/Sukkot_Dawn.jpg)
Interesting picture, 5am, field stripped the cable release with my teeth and spliced it, it worked and I'm useless at DIY stuff.
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A slightly belated but sincere thanks for the feedback on this! It is good to know that the “standout” in the field of stitching software is PS due to being about the worst of the bunch - and that the tools offer a variety of solutions rather than competitive solutions.
I will schedule some time to test the main contenders.
Ben, I thought about the photo (above) over several days. It really is a very nice one. I was at first troubled by the satellite dish because I thought it incongruous with the rest of the scene. After some deliberation I concluded that it fits well and makes for a harmonic of sorts of the rest of the image. While it does stand out, it ultimately serves the image in much the same way that the building portal exists where it appears there was once a chimney. The photo is a lot about change on different levels, and illustrates some change is more subtle than others.
Again, very nicely done – not even addressing the issues related to doing it as a stitch!
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This photo was incredibly hard to process for, it was too wide an angle for the rectilinear pano I made from it. I did it in autopanopro and ptgui. Ptgui gave a less distorted result, slightly, but the finished file, from 7 frames, was only 11 megapixels. The Autopano image was 35 megapixels and I fixed the worst of the distortion in PS
I don't understand this problem. I tried PTGui for years ago for a short time, but it was in its beginning phase and I dropped it, and I have been using PTAssembler in the meantime. However, they both are based on Panorama Tools, thus PTGui too should offer you to specify the output size. The time the "stitcher" spends on warping will be much longer, of course, as will the blending be, but that should be natural.