Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: cdicarlo on January 27, 2010, 04:15:02 pm

Title: Feedback on epson 7900?
Post by: cdicarlo on January 27, 2010, 04:15:02 pm
I have followed the discussion on the epson 7900 for some months now, and with great interest, as I've wanted a 24" printer for some time.  I understand the problems with the ANC and that the firmware addresses the over-zealous cleaning problem, which is best done manually with nozzle patterns, etc.  It's a work around for a feature that sounded like a good idea, and I can work with that.    But is the high incidence of "clogs"-- or air in the nozzles resulting from a lack of pressure-- something that continues to annoy users?  Reading the anecdotal evidence on this forum makes me feel that it is a fairly problematic design flaw.  Or are there any users of the 7900 who have not had frequent problems with this issue?   My intended usage is not heavy duty, more like several times a month.

Great forum, many thanks for consideration,
Candace
Title: Feedback on epson 7900?
Post by: dgberg on January 28, 2010, 06:53:09 am
Candace,
I have both models the 7900 and 9900. Although I do have a business I probably only print with each printer once a week. The first month after the purchase of my 7900 (Dec,08) I had a service call because of a cleaning issue. That cleared up most of my problems. After the lastest firmware upgrade and I believe it was this past summer I have been printing with no issues whatsoever. I turn the printer off between uses and do a powerup and nozzle printout at least once a week if I have no printing for that week. seems to do the trick and the output of both units are stunning. Highly recommended!
Title: Feedback on epson 7900?
Post by: Scott O. on January 28, 2010, 12:04:42 pm
My comments pretty much echo what Dan has said.  I got mine, did some printing, and the next day had some clogs.  I was thinking bleep bleep!  After turning off the auto clog checking, turning off the printer when not used, and printing something (clog check pattern, test pattern, or some such) every few days I have had absolutely no issues and really like the printer.  Doesn't sound like clog issues are exclusive to Epson.  I suspect we hear more about them since there are probably more Epson printers in use.
Title: Feedback on epson 7900?
Post by: cdicarlo on January 28, 2010, 04:08:41 pm
[quote name='Dan Berg' date='Jan 28 2010, 06:53 AM' post='343014']
 I had a service call because of a cleaning issue. .... Highly recommended!

Dan,
This is very good to hear.  Do you have ANC turned off like most 7900 users?  I'm also curious about your original "cleaning issue."  Was it related to the ANC?
Candace
Title: Feedback on epson 7900?
Post by: cdicarlo on January 28, 2010, 04:21:21 pm
[quote name='soberle' date='Jan 28 2010, 12:04 PM' post='343086']
 I have had absolutely no issues and really like the printer....  Doesn't sound like clog issues are exclusive to Epson.

Thank you for the reply, this is also good to hear.  I'm not expecting zero clog issues.  I've been using smaller format (up to 17") Epson printers for 5 years, only experiencing occasional clogging.  And thanks to Arthur Entlich's wonderful manual, I've learned to work on the printers myself when  there is a problem.   There did seem to be an unusual amount of discussion on this forum regarding the 7900's ink maintenance, so I was/am curious to hear from owners whose printers don't have those issues.   And THX for the tip about printing a nozzle check every few days.

Candace  
Title: Feedback on epson 7900?
Post by: dchew on January 28, 2010, 07:55:48 pm
I have a 7900, but only for 2 months.  Love the prints, how easy it is to load, and several other features.  

I don't have an issue (yet) with frequent clogs or cleaning. I do plan to turn off auto clean, however.  Simply because that is what most people recommend, and I print about once or twice per week, so I just do a manual check when I turn it on, then print away...

Dave
Title: Feedback on epson 7900?
Post by: gmerrell on January 28, 2010, 09:43:56 pm
I have had an Epson 7800 for about 2 years and a 7900 for about 1 month. I would occasionally have a slight nozzle clog on the 7800 after a long period of inactivity. The 7800 is a great printer and real work horse.

The 7900 is a vast improved printer. So far I have had no clogs or problems of any kind. I highly recommend the 7900 if you need a printer this wide.


Greg

Title: Feedback on epson 7900?
Post by: DeanChriss on January 29, 2010, 06:10:17 am
I've had a 7900 for just over a year and I don't regret it. I have not seen a clog since the last firmware update in early November 2009 even though the printer sat powered off for a two week period and a three week period with several days between uses otherwise. Before that update I'd categorize the clogging problem as a nuisance, not a deal breaker. And as others have said, the print quality is simply outstanding.
Title: Feedback on epson 7900?
Post by: dgberg on January 29, 2010, 07:01:42 am
Candice,
Yes ANC is still turned off. We never isolated the origional problem at the service call. The tech replaced quite a few parts and whatever he did it worked.
The nozzle check is a really good idea to run before printing as it uses only about 3" of paper and almost no ink. The only time I clean at all is if the nozzle check shows a clog.
Title: Feedback on epson 7900?
Post by: Chris Gilroy on January 29, 2010, 06:59:17 pm
As a Technician that worked primarily with Epson 7600/9600 series printers, I think the 7900/9900 series spoils me a bit. The old Epsons uses a fabric capping pad and didnt have pressurized ink systems, so they dried up quickly and resulted in frequent nozzle clogs. With the new printers most of this has been addressed. Keep in mind, of course, that with inkjets keeping the head "wet" and keeping a small amount of ink flow on a regular basis is the nature of the beast. I will say, for the most part, it's rare a business spends $5k on a machine they dont intend to use. In addition, I think there's a lot of mystery around how much ink a regular clean cycle actually uses. The forums can give the impression that these printers leak money, which is far from the truth. In reality, a standard clean cycle pushes just a couple mililters of ink through the head. At $0.32 per mil (depending on what supplier you use of course) I would say this cost you around $6. I'm not saying spending $6 every two months is nothing, but I think the general fear around cleaning is that hundreds of dollars are being wasted.

There are several tech tips that can be helpful when dealing with old Epsons, as well as instructions for upgrading the firmware on the new Epson 7900/9900 HERE (http://www.spectraflow.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=163&Itemid=68)
Title: Feedback on epson 7900?
Post by: Steven Draper on January 30, 2010, 12:04:49 am
I have a 7900 and generally have 1 or 2 print sessions per week, although left it for a month recently

No major problems, and a nozzle check prior to a big print and paired cleaning is all I need to do. With ANC on it was getting through a couple of colours very quick. I do try and remember to switch it off!

The print quality has elevated my images to a completely new level from the B9180 I was using.


My only gremlin is that the low ink light starts flashing very early and way before you need to change the cartridge - and with at least one ink low that means the light is always flashing. If anyone knows how to turn it off it would be great!


Steven
Title: Feedback on epson 7900?
Post by: Ryan Grayley on January 30, 2010, 07:02:49 am
Quote from: Chris Gilroy
As a Technician that worked primarily with Epson 7600/9600 series printers, I think the 7900/9900 series spoils me a bit. The old Epsons uses a fabric capping pad and didnt have pressurized ink systems, so they dried up quickly and resulted in frequent nozzle clogs.

I bought an Epson 9600 when it first came out and to this day I am still impressed by the infrequent nozzle clogs.
Not so my 7900. My 7900 is located next to my 9600 yet it clogs all the time. My ANC never worked properly so it remains switched off. It also randomly fails to print the whole of the cyan channel even during a print run. But now I don't have any of these 7900 hassles because most of the time the printer won't even initialise when I switch it on. I am just glad I also have a Z3200 as it has been trouble free in the year that I have had it.
Title: Feedback on epson 7900?
Post by: fjmcsu on January 30, 2010, 10:29:23 am
Quote from: Ionaca
I bought an Epson 9600 when it first came out and to this day I am still impressed by the infrequent nozzle clogs.
Not so my 7900. My 7900 is located next to my 9600 yet it clogs all the time. My ANC never worked properly so it remains switched off. It also randomly fails to print the whole of the cyan channel even during a print run. But now I don't have any of these 7900 hassles because most of the time the printer won't even initialise when I switch it on. I am just glad I also have a Z3200 as it has been trouble free in the year that I have had it.
I had similar experience comparing 7600 to 7900;it seemed for a while the 7900 had"settled down"(had it since October 09), now suddenly even after a day or two idle a channel will be completely blank. Usually clears with CL 1 cleaning although the other day it took 3- CL1's & one CL 2 to clear! I do not use ANC either!
Title: Feedback on epson 7900?
Post by: cdicarlo on January 30, 2010, 02:17:49 pm
[quote name='Steven Draper' date='Jan 30 2010, 12:04 AM' post='343495']

 With ANC on it was getting through a couple of colours very quick. I do try and remember to switch it off!

Steve,
I would have thought that once it was turned off-- it was OFF.  Are you saying that EACH time the printer is turned on, one has to disable ANC?
Title: Feedback on epson 7900?
Post by: cdicarlo on January 30, 2010, 02:32:33 pm
Quote from: Ionaca
But now I don't have any of these 7900 hassles because most of the time the printer won't even initialise when I switch it on.

Over the past year you, along with Wayne, have reported some of the most problematic issues with the 7900, and it's the reason I've delayed my purchase and posted my original question.  Do you believe that you got a lemon?  

B&H in NYC is offering an extended warranty for the printer through Sage Protection ($325./extra 2 years) which is half the price of the Epson extended warranty.  I haven't spoken to them yet, but plan to do so.  Wonder if anyone has had experience with them?  Here's their website for those interested:   www.sagemaxprotectionplan.com
Title: Feedback on epson 7900?
Post by: cdicarlo on January 30, 2010, 02:44:32 pm
Quote from: Chris Gilroy
The old Epsons uses a fabric capping pad and didnt have pressurized ink systems, so they dried up quickly and resulted in frequent nozzle clogs. With the new printers most of this has been addressed.

This is interesting.  Some people seem to think that some of the 7900 clogging is due to a lack of pressure in the nozzles.  Any thoughts?
Title: Feedback on epson 7900?
Post by: BobDavid on January 31, 2010, 03:15:30 pm
My 9900 clogs a lot more than my 9800 and 7800 ever did.
Title: Feedback on epson 7900?
Post by: BobDavid on January 31, 2010, 03:35:23 pm
deleted
Title: Feedback on epson 7900?
Post by: ghaynes754 on January 31, 2010, 10:50:19 pm
ANC stays off once you set it to off.  No need to do it after a power up/power down cycle.

I also run a nozzle check as suggested by Dan.  I do my on a sheet of regular paper rather than running 3 inches of canvas.  If I find clogs I run a standard cleaning on the channel pair and flip the sheet of paper around for a second test (no sense in only using one end of the papaer   )  I also cut off the tests, labe the date and time and file them in an envelope.  That way I have a history if ever needed by service.
Title: Feedback on epson 7900?
Post by: Ryan Grayley on February 01, 2010, 04:06:00 am
Quote from: ghaynes754
I also run a nozzle check as suggested by Dan.  I do my on a sheet of regular paper rather than running 3 inches of canvas.  If I find clogs I run a standard cleaning on the channel pair and flip the sheet of paper around for a second test (no sense in only using one end of the papaer   )  I also cut off the tests, labe the date and time and file them in an envelope.  That way I have a history if ever needed by service.

I also keep my nozzle check prints but as well as the date, I write down the temperature and humidity too.
Title: Feedback on epson 7900?
Post by: Ryan Grayley on February 01, 2010, 04:09:57 am
Quote from: cdicarlo
Over the past year you, along with Wayne, have reported some of the most problematic issues with the 7900, and it's the reason I've delayed my purchase and posted my original question.  Do you believe that you got a lemon?

Yes I believe the 7900 is a lemon and I also think Epson is a lemon.

I reported my ANC problems to Epson within a few days of the printer arriving back in 2008.
Epson didn't respond for three months. Yes thats three months.
I have never known worse customer service.
Title: Feedback on epson 7900?
Post by: dgberg on February 01, 2010, 06:32:18 am
Ryan,
I called Epson about my problem (Jan 09) on a Mon and received a full box of parts from Epson on Wed. of that same week. The Tech called Thus. to see if the parts had arrived and was here Fri. morning to repair the printer. From call to full repair in less then a week.
Just goes to show how service can vary from state to state or country to country.
Yes you can surly have a lemon and topped off with a bad service experience I share your frustrations.
 My experience has been the exact opposite and I consider Epson the premier printers in the market.
Title: Feedback on epson 7900?
Post by: cdicarlo on February 01, 2010, 07:34:58 pm
I'd like to thank all of you who kindly responded to my original post and shared info and tips.  I just wanted to hear from a few happy campers-- and I did.  I placed an order for the 7900 (but not without some reservations, as there have been quite a few negative experiences)  and requested the Issue -Free Edition (smile).  To be continued...  many thanks for guidance.

Candace
Title: Feedback on epson 7900?
Post by: vgogolak on February 01, 2010, 07:43:28 pm
Well, if your experience is like mine you will be VERY happy. I just have not had the issue with clogging and I really like the fact that I get some pretty damn good prints on a variety of mpapers without RIPs or fiddling around.

I am an old dye sub bigot (kodak 8660, prints that were like REAL photos) and the 7900 gets me stuff that looks like a photo, not 'prints' of old.

Cross your fingers, but there are I suspect a lot of happy campers.

regards

Victor
Title: Feedback on epson 7900?
Post by: Wayne Fox on February 02, 2010, 05:51:49 pm
Quote from: Ionaca
Yes I believe the 7900 is a lemon and I also think Epson is a lemon.

I reported my ANC problems to Epson within a few days of the printer arriving back in 2008.
Epson didn't respond for three months. Yes thats three months.
I have never known worse customer service.

Please note that unfortunately for Ryan, this seems to be an Epson UK problem.  As an Epson USA customer, I have received outstanding service, immediate attention, prompt visits from a technician, and a replacement of my original printer which indeed was a "lemon"

While I still believe there may be some design issues that I would like to see Epson address regarding nozzle failures, my 7900 is performing quite well at this point without many clogs and quite manageable by using manual nozzle checks.
Title: Feedback on epson 7900?
Post by: cdicarlo on February 07, 2010, 02:57:58 pm

While I still believe there may be some design issues that I would like to see Epson address regarding nozzle failures, my 7900 is performing quite well at this point without many clogs and quite manageable by using manual nozzle checks.
[/quote]


Thank you for posting this, Wayne.  As you were one of the persons with one of the most problematic experiences, this says a lot to me, appreciate your feedback.
Candace
Title: Feedback on epson 7900?
Post by: JohnHeerema on February 09, 2010, 12:00:43 am
Thanks for asking about people's experiences with the Epson 7900!

I was particularly curious, because I too was on the verge of purchasing an Epson 7900. After reading an awful lot of postings, both here and elsewhere, on people's experiences with various 24" printers, I came to some conclusions:

It seems that a certain percentage of Epson 7900s don't come out of the factory quite right. My impression is that the design is a bit fragile, in the sense that the manufacturing process has to go just right, or else the printer will have problems with clogs, air leaks in the ink tubes, or excessive head cleaning. Probably most 7900s are fine, but a significant percentage are not. Almost everyone who is happy with their Epson 7900 has turned automatic head cleaning off.

It also seems that Epson's service varies in both responsiveness and competence, depending on where you are located, and on which technician you happen to get.  

So, I tried an experiment.

I called up my friendly sales rep, and ask him to order an Epson 7900, but only if I could have a guarantee that I could have the entire machine swapped out if it turned out that I happened to get one of the ones that wasn't put together quite right, and which also couldn't be satisfactorily repaired by Epson within about three months. I explained that I didn't care if the guarantee came from Epson, or from them.

I heard back today.

Epson Canada assures me that their normal guarantee covers all of my concerns. Nevertheless, they are unwilling to guarantee a machine replacement in the event that it turns out that they are unable to make my new printer work properly.

My local dealer (The Camera Store in Calgary) also assured me that they will work hard to ensure that I don't end up with a lemon. However, they can't afford to guarantee a machine replacement if it turns out that Epson can't make the printer work right.

So the Epson 7900 is a no-go.

I looked at some other printers too. The Canon IPF6100 is a fine printer, and is about $2,200, vs $3,400 for the Epson. I might get one of them. People seem to report fewer problems with ink clogs with the Canon, than with the Epson, particularly those living in a dry climate, or who print only occasionally. The major problem with the Canon seems to be that the heads may need replacement in a year or two, at a cost of about $1,000. The print quality is not quite up to the Epson 7900, and the design is now three years old. Canon's web site is a disaster, and it is sometimes tough to find a Canon profile for any given paper.

At this point though, I'm thinking that the Epson 7900 was announced almost two years ago, and that Epson seems to have about a three year cycle between large format printer designs. Although I'm a fussy printer, and like to print everything myself, I might just wait a while, and see what comes down the pike in the next year.

Canon is due for a new printer announcement.
HP might decide to become a serious player again in the large format printer market.
Epson might fix the 7900 design.
Until then, I might just keep sending my large format stuff out for printing.

I'm curious whether my conclusions resonate with others.





Title: Feedback on epson 7900?
Post by: ghaynes754 on February 09, 2010, 12:08:09 am
Ask the dealer to do the same warranty on an HP or a Canon and I would wager that the answer would be exactly the same.  This sounds more like an issue of service and while I haven't had any problems with my 9900 the one fellow I know that had a service call on his 7900 for a clogged nozzle got prompt service here in the US.
Title: Feedback on epson 7900?
Post by: JohnHeerema on February 09, 2010, 01:43:25 pm
Quote from: ghaynes754
Ask the dealer to do the same warranty on an HP or a Canon and I would wager that the answer would be exactly the same.  This sounds more like an issue of service and while I haven't had any problems with my 9900 the one fellow I know that had a service call on his 7900 for a clogged nozzle got prompt service here in the US.

I agree that no manufacturer likes to make special concessions. If they felt that they could sell their products with no warranty at all, they would (this is how many software manufacturers sell their products).

Printer manufacturers warranty their products for two reasons: to limit their statutory liability exposure, and to attract potential buyers. They change their products, or improve warranty coverage, if they see the change as helping their bottom line.

That's where groups of people, like the members of this forum, can help. If enough people make it clear that they would purchase a product if it came with a replacement guarantee, but not otherwise, it's sometimes possible for even a big and hidebound organization to change. This is why I believe it's important to let manufacturers know why you are not purchasing their products.

Another change factor, which can be influenced by a forum like this, is corporate pride, or corporate shame. If a Seiko Epson executive sees that a large number of people are criticizing a product in his portfolio for good reason (and in Japan, it's always "his"), he is likely to direct his product group to fix the problem.

That's my $.02 at least.
Title: Feedback on epson 7900?
Post by: k_p98 on February 09, 2010, 06:02:30 pm
Quote from: JohnHeerema
I looked at some other printers too. The Canon IPF6100 is a fine printer, and is about $2,200, vs $3,400 for the Epson. I might get one of them. People seem to report fewer problems with ink clogs with the Canon, than with the Epson, particularly those living in a dry climate, or who print only occasionally. The major problem with the Canon seems to be that the heads may need replacement in a year or two, at a cost of about $1,000. The print quality is not quite up to the Epson 7900, and the design is now three years old. Canon's web site is a disaster, and it is sometimes tough to find a Canon profile for any given paper.

Canon is due for a new printer announcement.
HP might decide to become a serious player again in the large format printer market.
Epson might fix the 7900 design.
Until then, I might just keep sending my large format stuff out for printing.

I'm curious whether my conclusions resonate with others.

I've just stumbled upon this thread and it took me way back to the days when I owned an Epson 4800.  When it printed it was gorgeous, but honestly, half of the time it was a lemon.  What was even worse was that when a cleaning cycle was run to clear up a few clogged nozzles, entire color channels would be missing in other colors AFTER the cleaning.  It got to the point where I would dread turning it on because I would think that in order to do one 8x10 print which would use up 2ml of ink, I'd have to spend 20 or 30ml just to get the thing going.  A power clean, which dumps 100ml down into the maintenance tank I think helped quite a bit, but alas, when the printer was sold I didn't cry.

Now I have a brand new iPF6100.  Yes it is getting old, but dam the price was good.  They even announced the iPF6350 now with new inks which sound great, but that is about all that's a major innovation.  So far, I have had no problems at all, and clogging seems to now be an issue.  I think with the Epson 7900 you still waste a bit of ink when the print head needs to switch the color channel between the blacks, and with the Canon none of this is true.  The Canon even has a nice power roll holder.

I'm not saying the Canon is perfect, but the price is amazing right now.  With Epson you've got this constant clogging issue to worry about.  The HP seems to have solved their issue with printing reds over the 3100 model, but it apparently has quite a loud fan that seems to make people go crazy since it is always on, even when it isn't printing.

So it seems to me that buying the Canon is the lesser of 3 evils.  Yes the printheads will be expensive if you need to replace them, but all the bad stories are mostly from the iPF5000 which had the PF-01 printhead, not the newer PF-03 one.  Plus by then the Canons will be even cheaper, so picking up a new one just to get the free starter inks and new printheads might be quite an economical route.  Plus, since its already a good $1500 possibly cheaper than the Epson, just set aside the cash you save incase you need new print heads.  The huge price difference cannot be over looked and if you aren't exactly sure what to get, going with the cheapest option is perhaps the way to go.
Title: Feedback on epson 7900?
Post by: JohnHeerema on February 09, 2010, 09:15:56 pm
Thanks for your posting!

The IPF6350 looks very interesting. At least on paper, it seems to bring the Canon gamut up to the level of the Epson 7900. If it also offers the same level of reliability as the IPF6100, and solves the Canon media profiling issues, I expect to become a Canon customer.

My first Epson photo printer was their very first ever photo printer. $750 for a dye-based letter-size printer.
There have been quite a few Epson printers since then, so the switch to Canon should be "interesting".

I'm glad Epson decided that they didn't want me as a repeat customer!

Title: Feedback on epson 7900?
Post by: ghaynes754 on February 10, 2010, 01:37:08 am
John, great humming bird photo on your page.  Canon, HP, Epson all have strengths and weaknesses.  I looked at all 3 but came back to Epson.  Had a 3800 for about 2 years, never had a problem with it, didn't like switching black inks, yep that eats it up and never had a problem with clogged heads even if I didn't print for a month.

Bought a 9900, good deal, $1000 rebate.  The ink switch is minimal but since I print mainly canvas I haven't used much photo black.

Any of the three are good machines.  Each one makes improvements and at any given time one seems to be slightly ahead of the others.

 Look at size and space.  One thing I like about the Epson is that everything is easily accessible from the front and it isn't as deep as the Canon or HP.

Like all electronics it seems they are out of date, new model the minute you take the plunge.  Me, I'm holding out for the 64 cartridge model that gives incredible color fidelity that can print the range of the human eye.  Uh-oh just saw an email about the Fuji-Epson-Canon-Murota-EFI 264 color model.  Guess I need to upgrade again.

Good luck.
Title: Feedback on epson 7900?
Post by: JohnHeerema on February 11, 2010, 01:24:09 pm
Quote from: ghaynes754
John, great humming bird photo on your page.  Canon, HP, Epson all have strengths and weaknesses.  I looked at all 3 but came back to Epson.  Had a 3800 for about 2 years, never had a problem with it, didn't like switching black inks, yep that eats it up and never had a problem with clogged heads even if I didn't print for a month.

Bought a 9900, good deal, $1000 rebate.  The ink switch is minimal but since I print mainly canvas I haven't used much photo black.

Any of the three are good machines.  Each one makes improvements and at any given time one seems to be slightly ahead of the others.

 Look at size and space.  One thing I like about the Epson is that everything is easily accessible from the front and it isn't as deep as the Canon or HP.

Like all electronics it seems they are out of date, new model the minute you take the plunge.  Me, I'm holding out for the 64 cartridge model that gives incredible color fidelity that can print the range of the human eye.  Uh-oh just saw an email about the Fuji-Epson-Canon-Murota-EFI 264 color model.  Guess I need to upgrade again.

Good luck.

Thanks for your kind comment!

Ain't it the way of all flesh?
Should it be the brash young product, or the experienced one?
Hmmm... was I talking about printers, or about people?

Generally when it comes to products in the technology fast stream, I'm an early adopter, but try not to be the first in line to get burned. Like you said, you can put off a decision forever, waiting for the next great thing, and end up never doing the things you want to be doing.

With people on the other hand, I lean toward the people who I already know are smart. But that's a whole other discussion!

I like the Epson 7900 a lot, but I'm troubled that the company has refused to acknowledge a widespread problem with their product. To me, the corporate attitude makes a big difference. That's why I wanted to see if there was a human being at Epson Canada who was willing to acknowledge that their product has a known problem which affects a minority of the 7900s, and who was willing to stand behind their product.

It seems that it almost always comes down to individual people. Do the execs at Epson stick to the corporate line that all is fine, or is there an executive willing to stick their neck out, and stand behind a slightly troubled product? I got an answer that made a difference to my personal purchasing decision.
Title: Feedback on epson 7900?
Post by: ghaynes754 on February 11, 2010, 02:39:07 pm
Worst case would be something like the Toyota executive that supposedly committed seppuku as he was responsible for the throttle design or in someway implicated.  That is an extreme case of contrition.