Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: stillekracht on December 19, 2009, 07:44:59 am
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Major flaw with Epson Stylus Pro 9900 causes banding in BLACK only
First of all, apologies for my bad English.
I am from behind the dikes, you see.
Problem:
Clear banding (parallel with headmovement) in black only.
This is not caused by a headstrike or deflected nozzles.
As you can see: The banding is not nozzle related.
Difficult to believe this is software related since the banding is in black only (and in gray with photoblack).
It is not inktube related because the problem is the same with Mat and Photoblack.
When it is inkpressure related one would expect it to be visible also in the colors.
Epson Repair Service guys:
The Epson Repair guys refuse to come and have a look at the machine and problem.
They told me: We can not fix it and we only get paid by Epson if we fix a problem.
They told me: We know of another E9900 with the same problem.
The problem was not solved by replacing the head...
For:
Hardware - Software settings / images / updates / problem description / What did I do so far?
Go to:
http://members.upc.nl/reppel/E9900.html (http://members.upc.nl/reppel/E9900.html)
Question:
Any of you have experience with this issue? And solved it?
Or am I doing something wrong.....
Thanks,
Hartelijke Groet van Matthijs Reppel
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Question:
Any of you have experience with this issue? And solved it?
Or am I doing something wrong.....
Were you printing with high speed checked? Make sure you are printing without high speed. You might also need to add "drying time per print head pass". I am not sure in the case of the 9900 but it might be under Paper Configuration in the Epson print dialog. I find I need more drying time for the print heads the darker the prints are. Good luck...
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Question:
Any of you have experience with this issue? And solved it?
Or am I doing something wrong.....
Were you printing with high speed checked? Make sure you are printing without high speed. You might also need to add "drying time per print head pass". I am not sure in the case of the 9900 but it might be under Paper Configuration in the Epson print dialog. I find I need more drying time for the print heads the darker the prints are. Good luck...
Thanks Jeff,
printing is done without high speed and this not a matter of drying time.
Look at: http://members.upc.nl/reppel/E9900.html (http://members.upc.nl/reppel/E9900.html)
Hartelijke Groet van Matthijs
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Thanks Jeff,
printing is done without high speed and this not a matter of drying time.
Look at: http://members.upc.nl/reppel/E9900.html (http://members.upc.nl/reppel/E9900.html)
Hartelijke Groet van Matthijs
Other than running a nozzle check and increasing the drying time beyond unchecking High Speed I am out of help. Hopefully someone else has an idea...
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Thanks Jeff,
printing is done without high speed and this not a matter of drying time.
Look at: http://members.upc.nl/reppel/E9900.html (http://members.upc.nl/reppel/E9900.html)
Hartelijke Groet van Matthijs
Sorry to hear about Epson support, although they might be right. It doesn't look like a hardware issue.
A few questions.
The problem is obvious in printed work?
Have you examined the other colors closely with a loupe ... the problem may be in all colors, but just so subtle it is only obvious in the blacks.
Is this roll paper or sheet paper? If roll, have you tried a different roll to make sure it's not a coating issue with the paper? have you printed to other types of paper and still see the problem?
When you say quality 3, I assume you are setting the driver to the 3rd choice (720 dpi). Have you tried higher quality settings of the printer? have you tried it with Microweave off?
One thing you might try is lowering the vacuum setting, could be the paper isn't moving as evenly as it should.
You might also try increasing the drying time dramatically. Not to allow it to dry, but just a wild guess is perhaps low pressure in the black ink line might cause this, and letting the head sit between passes may be enough to allow the pressure to stay more constant.
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Have you examined the other colors closely with a loupe ... the problem may be in all colors, but just so subtle it is only obvious in the blacks.
Is this roll paper or sheet paper? If roll, have you tried a different roll to make sure it's not a coating issue with the paper? have you printed to other types of paper and still see the problem?
Thanks Wayne,
In answer to your Questions:
The problem is obvious in printed work? : Yes indeed.
The problem may be in all colors?: Not at all. They are fine ( ckecked with loupe )
It is roll paper? : It is ... but sheet makes no difference. And tried the 3 steps of vacuum and Epson and Hahnemuhle papers. No results.
http://members.upc.nl/reppel/E9900.html: (http://members.upc.nl/reppel/E9900.html:)
Print Quality: Quality level 3 (720x1440) Microwave on and off; unidirectional (high speed: off)
I printed with quality 3 and 4 and 5. Only in quality 5 there is no visible banding.
(Quality 5 will even give you an acceptable print if you have deflected nozzles)
What I noticed is when the first 1 cm is printed there is no banding what so ever.
I used Epson USFA paper thickness of 0.3 (standard) 0.5 - 0.7 - 0.9 with no effect.
I run out of ideas….
You might also try increasing the drying time dramatically?: I already did. Sorry, no difference.
And: I did tap the cartridges in order to release trapped air bubbles!
No difference.
Matthijs
Problem pictures: http://members.upc.nl/reppel/E9900.html (http://members.upc.nl/reppel/E9900.html)
Topic also on:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/EpsonWi...t/message/93762 (http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/EpsonWideFormat/message/93762)
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I added a video on the webpage:
http://members.upc.nl/reppel/E9900.html (http://members.upc.nl/reppel/E9900.html)
I did change the matblack for a brand new one.
Shaked normally en did the tap thing: The problem is still there...
Take a look at http://members.upc.nl/reppel/E9900.html (http://members.upc.nl/reppel/E9900.html) for updates.
I am not giving in, you know, we build dikes...
Read this reaction on this forum:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/EpsonWi...t/message/93762 (http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/EpsonWideFormat/message/93762)
Quote:
I have a good technician that does service on my printers and he gave it his
best trying to fix this issue. he had plenty opportunities too, he has already
replaced the head in my printer 4 times, though for different reasons. at this
point I am fairly certain that on site service can't do a single thing to
eliminate this problem.
Epson itself has not been helpful, it is hard to get them to care about it.
especially that this is the issue that is most visible on papers like museo
silver rag or h. baryta, something that they don't really have in their offer.
on their papers you can see it, but they refer to it as a very minor
imperfection and as said before they don't give a crap.
it is true that things in europe work a little bit differently. returning a
printer because of that would be a battle with little chance of success. they
could probably replace it for another one, but then again why bother? they all
have the same issue...
and it is a pity, because other than that it is a great printer and you would be
hard pressed to find anything that good in this price range. or at all.
End of Quote.
Matthijs.
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Sorry to hear about Epson support, although they might be right. It doesn't look like a hardware issue.
EPSON is going to replace the printhead this week.
They acknowledge it is a hardware problem and know about it (!).
They told me that a replacement of the head is not always solving the problem.
But if they replace the second head for a third one most of the time the problem
is solved....
So I wonder how many heads are going to fall.
At epson production-design level...
I will let you know what happened next.
Posting this issue on:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/EpsonWi...t/message/93762 (http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/EpsonWideFormat/message/93762)
obviously helped!
Matthijs.
http://members.upc.nl/reppel/E9900.html (http://members.upc.nl/reppel/E9900.html)
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I feel bad for your problems but all the 9900's do not have this problem. You are the only one to date that I have heard has this issue.
1 or 2 in 5,000 does not make a major flaw! I hope you get it fixed very soon.
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I feel bad for your problems but all the 9900's do not have this problem. You are the only one to date that I have heard has this issue.
1 or 2 in 5,000 does not make a major flaw! I hope you get it fixed very soon.
Thanks Dan,
Sorry to say: I think you are wrong about this.
First: On this forum: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/EpsonWi...t/message/93762 (http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/EpsonWideFormat/message/93762)
you can read there are others having the same problem.
Second: The majority of 9900 users are probably not even aware of this problem.
They are in the sign bussines and if they did notice, found a workaround.
Third: If Epson in some causes need to replace the printhead two or three times ... before the problem is solved.
In that case you can speak of a major flaw.. in my opinion. As I did.
Five: As you could read: The repair guys told me: we are not comming. We can not fix it.
Do you find it strange I called it a major flaw?
Matthijs
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Hi,
I too have been having this problem for the last month.
on quality setting 4 I get banding in the black channel
on quality 5 I do not.
I dont print lower than quality 4.
I am getting so fed up with this machine!
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I too have been having this problem for the last month.
Hi Jason,
Untill now there have been 5 persons looking and testing.
Servicemen and one from Epson.
They changed the printhead and started up.
The printer died. Started up again and it died again.
They reinstalled the new printhead...
Everything worked but..
The problem is still there.
Now they think it might be the mainboard / motherboard.
Or the photoblack / matblack damper.
They are comming back.
The parts they need are not in stock.
So hope this is not going to take to much time.
The printer has at this moment (with the new printhead) nozzles missing in cyaan.
Was not able to get them back....
I am going into the zen mode.
Matthijs
http://members.upc.nl/reppel/E9900.html (http://members.upc.nl/reppel/E9900.html)
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Hi Jason,
Untill now there have been 5 persons looking and testing.
Servicemen and one from Epson.
They changed the printhead and started up.
The printer died. Started up again and it died again.
They reinstalled the new printhead...
Everything worked but..
The problem is still there.
Now they think it might be the mainboard / motherboard.
Or the photoblack / matblack damper.
They are comming back.
The parts they need are not in stock.
So hope this is not going to take to much time.
The printer has at this moment (with the new printhead) nozzles missing in cyaan.
Was not able to get them back....
I am going into the zen mode.
Matthijs
http://members.upc.nl/reppel/E9900.html (http://members.upc.nl/reppel/E9900.html)
Hi Matthijs,
thanks for this info - I will be prepared to give this guy stick when he turns up this week.
I made sure that he ordered all parts that could cause issues before xmas due to the Cyan channel going dead.
It wasn't until seeing your post the other day that I realized that had yet another issue with the machine.
So he will be turning up with motherboard and print head, he already replaced the cap and assembly a month ago.
They seem to come completely unprepared as if they think that all the machine needs is a firmware update!
On another post someone mentioned that the ink lines might be loose or broken near the print heads and/or seals.
I just hope it will get fixed this week so I can get printing again.
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I was thinking of getting a 7900. Does this problem occur with the 7900 too?
Thanks,
Dan
http://www.danbrownphotography.com (http://www.danbrownphotography.com)
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I was thinking of getting a 7900. Does this problem occur with the 7900 too?
Thanks,
Dan
http://www.danbrownphotography.com (http://www.danbrownphotography.com)
Hi Dan,
Not necessarily.
Although there are other printers in the 7900 and 9900 series showing this problem.
But, as far as I know, it appears only in very few of them.
When you have installed your 7900, just run the testfile as described on http://members.upc.nl/reppel/E9900.html (http://members.upc.nl/reppel/E9900.html)
Your machine will almost certainly be fine.
The 79/9900 is an almost perfect printer when it operates flawless.
I am just the unhappy one with one particular 9900 showing all kinds of flaws they don't seem to be able to solve.
Untill now.
Matthijs
http://members.upc.nl/reppel/E9900.html (http://members.upc.nl/reppel/E9900.html)
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Hi Dan,
Not necessarily.
Although there are other printers in the 7900 and 9900 series showing this problem.
But, as far as I know, it appears only in very few of them.
When you have installed your 7900, just run the testfile as described on http://members.upc.nl/reppel/E9900.html (http://members.upc.nl/reppel/E9900.html)
Your machine will almost certainly be fine.
The 79/9900 is an almost perfect printer when it operates flawless.
I am just the unhappy one with one particular 9900 showing all kinds of flaws they don't seem to be able to solve.
Untill now.
Matthijs
http://members.upc.nl/reppel/E9900.html (http://members.upc.nl/reppel/E9900.html)
Hi Matthijs
Just out of interest when did you purchase your machine and when did you notice the banding start?
thanks,
Jason
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Hi Matthijs, Just out of interest when did you purchase your machine and when did you notice the banding start?
thanks, Jason
Hi Jason,
I purchased this 9900 on nov 5, 2009.
In the first two weeks i printed photography without solid black. Great printer.
After being away for 2 weeks I started - after a perfect nozzle check - printing a photo with lots of solid black.
Looking at that print I first noticed there was something wrong. Seriously wrong. A major f#%* up.
I have been using epsons for more than 10 years.. so I know a bit about problems.
This problem is definitely not your standard issue.
I took some days troubleshooting.
I called Epson on dec 8.
So this is probably not something that will happen suddenly after some time.
This 9900 was definitely not flawless when it arrived in my studio.
Matthijs
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Hi again,
This problem: "a strange wave-like horizontal pattern in black" is still not solved.
The printhead was changed two times.
The damper-unit was changed.
The problem still remains.
This epson 9900 arrived on nov 5, 2009.
The first two weeks I printed photography without solid black.
I went away for two weeks.
After returning I printed a photo with lots of solid black.
And the problem became visible.
After trying to troubleshoot this problem I contacted Epson on dec 8, 2009
They came to my studio on dec. 24 for the first time.
They visited my studio 5 times now.
Untill this moment the problem is not solved.
Any off you have experience with this issue?
Hartelijke groet van Matthijs
Click here for information on and pictures / video of this problem (http://members.upc.nl/reppel/E9900.html)
[attachment=19992:epson_99...k_only_5.jpg]
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These printers are fed under pressure, yes? Could it be that the pressure for the black feed is not constant, or at least not constant enough? Tiny leak somewhere, tiny bit of grit preventing a perfect seal, pressure pump problem, IDK. Just another direction to look.
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These printers are fed under pressure, yes? Could it be that the pressure for the black feed is not constant, or at least not constant enough? Tiny leak somewhere, tiny bit of grit preventing a perfect seal, pressure pump problem, IDK. Just another direction to look.
We experience this same issue.
We have found that changing paper types set in the driver has a big effect on it - different paper types work with different papers. (Means a lot of profiling work!). Fine Art Textured and WCRW seem the two best types in general to minimize the effect while still getting very good results from the printer. Doesn
't totally eliminate it on pure blacks but it gets to the point where you pretty much have to shine a torch on the page to see the issue.
The problem doesn't occur nearly as much with sheets and I am fairly sure the problem is not abotu ink delivery so much as it is about paper transport mechanisms.
We are also getting dropping out on the cyan channel (not block, the whole channel disappears, pretty sure there is not enough pressure/suction pulling the ink through).
We have jsut put a service call in for both but I am not sure I hold a lot of hope for their abilities to fix the striping issue.
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The problem doesn't occur nearly as much with sheets and I am fairly sure the problem is not abotu ink delivery so much as it is about paper transport mechanisms.
We are also getting dropping out on the cyan channel (not block, the whole channel disappears, pretty sure there is not enough pressure/suction pulling the ink through).
You have problem that is a known issue (losing entire cyan channel) which is directly related to ink pressure, yet your are sure the black problem has nothing to do with ink delivery?
I had the complete loss of cyan channel problem as well. The repair of that problem has all but eliminated "clogs" ... I have only had 2 missing nozzles in the past several weeks.
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You have problem that is a known issue (losing entire cyan channel) which is directly related to ink pressure, yet your are sure the black problem has nothing to do with ink delivery?
I had the complete loss of cyan channel problem as well. The repair of that problem has all but eliminated "clogs" ... I have only had 2 missing nozzles in the past several weeks.
Well I could be wrong - but I have the sense they're two separate unrelated issues (backed by quite a bit of testing). And varying the paper type (which I doubt has a lot to do with ink pressure) - changes the black banding issue significantly - also an Epson engineer described in detail what changing this paper type does with respect to paper feeding (and told me this was the first time the paper types have also adjusted paper feed tensions etc, the older 600s and 800s just changed ink laydown apparently).
So I am still fairly confident it's a transport thing but I am happy to be wrong...so long as a fix comes to light one way or another. BTW we have a 7900 that exhibits the black banding issue as well, so it's obviously not that uncommon a problem - two 900 series printers, two for two problems.
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You have problem that is a known issue (losing entire cyan channel) which is directly related to ink pressure, yet your are sure the black problem has nothing to do with ink delivery?
I had the complete loss of cyan channel problem as well. The repair of that problem has all but eliminated "clogs" ... I have only had 2 missing nozzles in the past several weeks.
If there has been no major change between the pressure system of the 11880 (and identical systems before that one) and the x900 then I do not see a relation between pressure on the ink feeding system and print quality flaws like described. The basics are as follows: an air pump keeps pressure on the air chambers around the ink pouches of all the carts, continuously, a signal from the buffer chamber on the head opens an ink valve in the printer near the cart slot for that channel, when the buffer is filled a signal goes back to close the valve. The pressure of the system is not helping the heads to squirt but only to feed enough ink to the buffer. What can go wrong is a valve doesn't open: cyan channel not loading, or a puncture of the air chamber or a leak at the cart connection that the pressure isn't high enough: the air pressure sensor gives an error warning. There could be a twilight situation (though I doubt that) where the lower air pressure isn't triggering the sensor and the ink flow on all channels is affected. That would create starvation in the print run, getting worse to the end of the print and image content dependent. It wouldn't affect black only. I personally think that Epson is at the edge of what they can control in printing, paper transport, ink limitation, dot distribution. The slightest changes in the conditions and subtle flaws like described appear. A friend with an 11880 has similar problems.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/)
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Well I could be wrong - but I have the sense they're two separate unrelated issues (backed by quite a bit of testing). And varying the paper type (which I doubt has a lot to do with ink pressure) - changes the black banding issue significantly - also an Epson engineer described in detail what changing this paper type does with respect to paper feeding (and told me this was the first time the paper types have also adjusted paper feed tensions etc, the older 600s and 800s just changed ink laydown apparently).
So I am still fairly confident it's a transport thing but I am happy to be wrong...so long as a fix comes to light one way or another. BTW we have a 7900 that exhibits the black banding issue as well, so it's obviously not that uncommon a problem - two 900 series printers, two for two problems.
The driver has always adjusted the paper feed based on the paper type selected since the 7000/9000 let alone later models.
Tension prior to the *900 series was determined by the spindle - normal or high tension. The *900 series has a motorised feed and the tension is altered according to the driver (or RIP) settings.
So the engineer either didn't tell you the whole story or you didn't understand. Stepping and tension are not the same thing and whilst both play a role, stepping is by far the more important of the two.
What papers are you using, what settings are you using in the driver, what OS, and what app are you printing from?
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For what it's worth, some years ago I had a banding problem with a new Epson 7600 I had bought. The banding was parallel to the print head travel. The printer came with the problem. A number of days were spent attempting to resolve the problem and talking with Epson on the phone. Finally Epson sent a technician since the new printer had the warranty of course. After almost two full days of the technician's time, plus he ordered and replaced a number of parts - though not the print head - Epson gave up and replaced the printer with another 7600. Apparently the cost of paying the technician and the parts had reached the point where it was cheaper to just replace the printer.
The second printer worked fine, no banding, as it should. The cause of the banding problem was never resolved. I don't know if this is particularly good news, but this is just a case of one way Epson decided to 'resolve' it after trying all their casebook solutions.
Mike
__________________
Mike Bailey
The Elemental Landscape
BlueRockPhotography.com (http://BlueRockPhotography.com)
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So I am still fairly confident it's a transport thing but I am happy to be wrong...so long as a fix comes to light one way or another. BTW we have a 7900 that exhibits the black banding issue as well, so it's obviously not that uncommon a problem - two 900 series printers, two for two problems.
It is definitely not a paperfeed tension or transport issue.
When you look at this page (http://members.upc.nl/reppel/E9900.html)
and print the testfile as described you will understand that paperfeet-tension problems would be visible in the colors also.
Futhermore if it was a paperfeed-tension problem one would expect the wavelike patern to be more consitend in its appearance.
So remains inkpressure issues.
Only photo and matblack has, so to say, two dempers for one (printhead) channel.
The first "demper" beeing the switch damper.
Right behind this you find a "regular" demper.
( As I understand..., forgive me if I am wrong..., I am getting tired... )
When I start printing the testfile the first cm or so of the black is flawless...
When the whole black printhead channel is used in laying down ink the wavelike pattern appears.
At that time it looks like the inkflow is not sufficient enough to lay down enough ink.
Strange enough the inkpressure pump does not get a signal inkpressure is insufficient.
Is this maybe also the case when suddenly one cartridge color has disappeared? ( Nozzle check )
If there's a leak in the inkpressure system the inkpressurepump will start trying to lift the lack of pressure.
So it does get a signal ... but maybe not soon enough ... or the pressure is not sufficient enough.
Because the black has "two dempers" maybe thats just enough "obstruction" to frustrate the inkflow without triggering the pressurepump.
The pressure is okay. Only the black inkflow is not enough.
(excuse my english..)
Hartelijke groet van Matthijs
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The second printer worked fine, no banding, as it should. The cause of the banding problem was never resolved. I don't know if this is particularly good news, but this is just a case of one way Epson decided to 'resolve' it after trying all their casebook solutions.
Mike
They are almost ready to declare this 9900 in my studio DOA.
But this dossier first has to go to Epson HQ in France and Japan...
And I am not convinced a new one will be flawless...
As I am still believing this is a major flaw in design.
Hartelijke groet van Matthijs
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If there has been no major change between the pressure system of the 11880 (and identical systems before that one) and the x900 then I do not see a relation between pressure on the ink feeding system and print quality flaws like described.
Yes, but the if in your statement might apply. I believe there has been a change in the pressure/ink delivery system and it very well might be the root cause of many of the missing nozzle issues. I was told by a tech the 11880 had multiple pumps where as the 79/9900 used only 1. Whether he actually knew what he as talking about I don't know and I haven't been able to confirm this with anyone.
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Yes, but the if in your statement might apply. I believe there has been a change in the pressure/ink delivery system and it very well might be the root cause of many of the missing nozzle issues. I was told by a tech the 11880 had multiple pumps where as the 79/9900 used only 1. Whether he actually knew what he as talking about I don't know and I haven't been able to confirm this with anyone.
Wayne,
The 10000, 7800, 9800, 7880, 9880 have just one air pump. The problems appear with the 9900, 7900, 11880. Whether one of the three has more or less air pumps, all three show this problem. The 11880 has 3 air pressure pumps (service manual). I don't think there are 3 groups though as there is only one pressure sensor. Have to read the manual a bit better though.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html (http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html)
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Wayne,
The 10000, 7800, 9800, 7880, 9880 have just one air pump. The problems appear with the 9900, 7900, 11880. Whether one of the three has more or less air pumps, all three show this problem. The 11880 has 3 air pressure pumps (service manual). I don't think there are 3 groups though as there is only one pressure sensor. Have to read the manual a bit better though.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html (http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html)
I have 2 11880 printers running, one infrequently, and one used on a daily basis. Neither have exhibited any problems similar to the 2 7900's I have experience with.
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just one council : buy a Z3200 !
I "work" with a 9900 more than 6 month last year in my office, epson come 5 time in that period to fix some trouble like you, they have changed the head, the pump, etc...it was always trouble, so at least I decided to buy a HP Z3200...and now I print everyday without troubles !
I understand your desapointment, really...
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I am still having this issue!
Only in the black channel and on all quality settings 4 and below (setting Q5 seems to be a fix), I have to buy some Epson stock to prove that it is not 3rd party paper issue before they will take the case any further.
Regarding the Cyan channel issue:
Having had my 9900 out of action for a whole month I went against the advice of Epson and performed a Power Clean for about 5 minutes and then opened the door to cancel the clean and rebooted the printer.
Since then I have not had any issue with the Cyan channel (touch wood) and have done a couple of hundred prints.
I am really unimpressed with Epson to the point that I may trade in for a HP at great expense and inconvenience.
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You have problem that is a known issue (losing entire cyan channel) which is directly related to ink pressure, yet your are sure the black problem has nothing to do with ink delivery?
I had the complete loss of cyan channel problem as well. The repair of that problem has all but eliminated "clogs" ... I have only had 2 missing nozzles in the past several weeks.
I am trying to find other users that have an 11880 printer. We have experienced a major flaw with the way in which the 11880 lays down cyan. Epson tried on three separate occasions to fix the problem and was not successful. We are now trying to get a full refund from them but they will not do so. They will only give us a refund based upon a 12 month amortization schedule! In addition, they are requiring us to pack up the faulty machine or they will have to chage us an extra $1000 to do so! I am so outraged by the way they have handled this that I am looking for other 11880 users (or for that matter and other user) who would be interested in printing the same corner of a photo where we first discovered this problem.
If you are interested, please contact me directly, outside of this forum, at info@picturesalon.com.
Thank you
Tom Crozier
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Major flaw with Epson Stylus Pro 9900 causes banding in BLACK only
First of all, apologies for my bad English.
I am from behind the dikes, you see.
Problem:
Clear banding (parallel with headmovement) in black only.
This is not caused by a headstrike or deflected nozzles.
As you can see: The banding is not nozzle related.
Difficult to believe this is software related since the banding is in black only (and in gray with photoblack).
It is not inktube related because the problem is the same with Mat and Photoblack.
When it is inkpressure related one would expect it to be visible also in the colors.
Epson Repair Service guys:
The Epson Repair guys refuse to come and have a look at the machine and problem.
They told me: We can not fix it and we only get paid by Epson if we fix a problem.
They told me: We know of another E9900 with the same problem.
The problem was not solved by replacing the head...
For:
Hardware - Software settings / images / updates / problem description / What did I do so far?
Go to:
http://members.upc.nl/reppel/E9900.html (http://members.upc.nl/reppel/E9900.html)
Question:
Any of you have experience with this issue? And solved it?
Or am I doing something wrong.....
Thanks,
Hartelijke Groet van Matthijs Reppel
I am trying to find other users that have an 11880 printer. We have experienced a major flaw with the way in which the 11880 lays down cyan. Epson tried on three separate occasions to fix the problem and was not successful. We are now trying to get a full refund from them but they will not do so. They will only give us a refund based upon a 12 month amortization schedule! In addition, they are requiring us to pack up the faulty machine or they will have to chage us an extra $1000 to do so! I am so outraged by the way they have handled this that I am looking for other 11880 users (or for that matter and other user) who would be interested in printing the same corner of a photo where we first discovered this problem.
If you are interested, please contact me directly, outside of this forum, at info@picturesalon.com.
Thank you
Tom Crozier
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Hi Tom,
Sorry to say and forgive me, but I think this is not the way to go.
Please make a perfect scan of the problem and put it in an attachment with your next post for all of us to see.
You also could try to print a testfile exactly as described on this page (http://members.upc.nl/reppel/E9900.html).
[http://members.upc.nl/reppel/E9900.html]
Scan it. Post it.
Hartelijke Groet van Matthijs
I am trying to find other users that have an 11880 printer. We have experienced a major flaw with the way in which the 11880 lays down cyan. Epson tried on three separate occasions to fix the problem and was not successful. We are now trying to get a full refund from them but they will not do so. They will only give us a refund based upon a 12 month amortization schedule! In addition, they are requiring us to pack up the faulty machine or they will have to chage us an extra $1000 to do so! I am so outraged by the way they have handled this that I am looking for other 11880 users (or for that matter and other user) who would be interested in printing the same corner of a photo where we first discovered this problem.
If you are interested, please contact me directly, outside of this forum, at info@picturesalon.com.
Thank you
Tom Crozier
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There seems to be a lot of this going on. Do you guys think there is some major flaw in the design of this particular pressurized cart feed design?
I know all the years I ran my Epson 10K with the pressurized carts it never gave me a single problem ever, and it's still going with back and white inks in it. But this new system of the 9900 is completely different.
You certainly shouldn't have banding issues in the back channel like that regardless of any media type setting or bad profle. This is making me wonder if it can ever be fixed correctly. That along with all the ink waste is probably going to make me stay with the HpZ machines for awhile.
john
We experience this same issue.
We have found that changing paper types set in the driver has a big effect on it - different paper types work with different papers. (Means a lot of profiling work!). Fine Art Textured and WCRW seem the two best types in general to minimize the effect while still getting very good results from the printer. Doesn
't totally eliminate it on pure blacks but it gets to the point where you pretty much have to shine a torch on the page to see the issue.
The problem doesn't occur nearly as much with sheets and I am fairly sure the problem is not abotu ink delivery so much as it is about paper transport mechanisms.
We are also getting dropping out on the cyan channel (not block, the whole channel disappears, pretty sure there is not enough pressure/suction pulling the ink through).
We have jsut put a service call in for both but I am not sure I hold a lot of hope for their abilities to fix the striping issue.
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There seems to be a lot of this going on. Do you guys think there is some major flaw in the design of this particular pressurized cart feed design?
hi John,
I can't help thinking this might be the case.
Unfortunately, I think, too many operators probably are not aware of this subtle flaw I described. (http://members.upc.nl/reppel/E9900.html)
You certainly shouldn't have banding issues in the back channel like that regardless of any media type setting or bad profle.
Exactly.
So when people ask me: Can't you live with it.. my answer is: Certainly not.
The problem is still not solved... after 2 months.
Hartelijke groet van Matthijs
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I don't know about you guys but if I had a major problem that lasted even 3 or 4 weeks with no resolution I'd ask them to come pick the piece of junk up and refund the money, much less 2 months. Sounds like you have been more than patient with them. All I can say is you better not wait until your warranty is over or you will be screwed.
john
hi John,
I can't help thinking this might be the case.
Unfortunately, I think, too many operators probably are not aware of this subtle flaw I described. (http://members.upc.nl/reppel/E9900.html)
Exactly.
So when people ask me: Can't you live with it.. my answer is: Certainly not.
The problem is still not solved... after 2 months.
Hartelijke groet van Matthijs
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The driver has always adjusted the paper feed based on the paper type selected since the 7000/9000 let alone later models.
Tension prior to the *900 series was determined by the spindle - normal or high tension. The *900 series has a motorised feed and the tension is altered according to the driver (or RIP) settings.
So the engineer either didn't tell you the whole story or you didn't understand. Stepping and tension are not the same thing and whilst both play a role, stepping is by far the more important of the two.
What papers are you using, what settings are you using in the driver, what OS, and what app are you printing from?
I did write the engineer told me this was the first time tension (not stepping) was changed by the paper type in the driver but I probably should have left off the 'etc' in that sentence.
The reason I think this is tension OR stepping related is that the paper type setting has such a big effect on it - you can change the wave pattern and or almost eliminate it by varying just the paper type and no other setting. While it isn't a perfectly straight set of lines, it is a fairly regular pattern of waves. It may or may not (or also) be pressure related but the effect is 100% consistent given certain paper types and settings.
We use a lot of matte rag papers - have seen the effect on Hahne Photo Rag, Bamboo & Torchon (the worst), but also Museo Portfolio Rag, Silver Rag, Gold Fibre Silk to a lesser degree. The best paper type to use is WCRW or Textured Fine Art. High speed off, quality 4 (5 reduces but does not eliminate the issue, and 4 should of course be usable in any case). Platform is XP with Photoshop CS2 and CS4. Latest firmware and drivers.
I agree though that it should then appear in the colours as well and I can't see it there - it's just in deep blacks. So I am probably wrong about this, it's just the sense I have because it looks like the black channel is overprinting. Doesn't seem like Epson have any real idea what it is either, but hopefully these issues coming to light across the world will get them to solve it.
Anyway, time I chased up Epson again about looking into this, and the cyan thing.
For those having the issue, how much experimenting have you done with the paper feed controls in the driver and or the LFP remote panel?
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I did write the engineer told me this was the first time tension (not stepping) was changed by the paper type in the driver but I probably should have left off the 'etc' in that sentence.
Yes, that is correct. Previously, if the paper required high tension, the driver would have assumed that the user was using the correct spindle.
The reason I think this is tension OR stepping related is that the paper type setting has such a big effect on it - you can change the wave pattern and or almost eliminate it by varying just the paper type and no other setting. While it isn't a perfectly straight set of lines, it is a fairly regular pattern of waves. It may or may not (or also) be pressure related but the effect is 100% consistent given certain paper types and settings.
It sounds to me more like a paper setting mismatch.
Have you tried an Epson paper using the appropriate driver setting? The other papers are, of course, not native to the driver and any setting is a best approximation.
I'm not suggesting you shouldn't use those papers, but I am suggesting a simple way to test the printer is to use, say, an Epson matte and an Epson gloss paper with the driver set to match and then see if the issue persists. If it does, you certainly have a stronger case to speak to Epson whereas at the moment it could simply be that the 3rd party paper and the driver setting isn't well matched, which isn't Epson's problem.
We use a lot of matte rag papers - have seen the effect on Hahne Photo Rag, Bamboo & Torchon (the worst), but also Museo Portfolio Rag, Silver Rag, Gold Fibre Silk to a lesser degree. The best paper type to use is WCRW or Textured Fine Art. High speed off, quality 4 (5 reduces but does not eliminate the issue, and 4 should of course be usable in any case). Platform is XP with Photoshop CS2 and CS4. Latest firmware and drivers.
The paper settings can be fine tuned in the driver. Have you tried that? It can be very effective when calibrating a 3rd party paper, or even compensating for unusual temperature or humidity levels.
I agree though that it should then appear in the colours as well and I can't see it there - it's just in deep blacks. So I am probably wrong about this, it's just the sense I have because it looks like the black channel is overprinting. Doesn't seem like Epson have any real idea what it is either, but hopefully these issues coming to light across the world will get them to solve it.
What black are you printing? RGB value? What settings in PS (black point compensation, which ICC profile, etc)? Do you see a difference when you change from bi-directional to uni-directional printing?
Finally, are you using the matte black or the photo black when printing to those media?
Anyway, time I chased up Epson again about looking into this, and the cyan thing.
For those having the issue, how much experimenting have you done with the paper feed controls in the driver and or the LFP remote panel?
As I said above, that can be very useful. I'd highly recommend some experimentation (though only after testing some Epson papers to baseline to ensure the printer itself doesn't have a problem).
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I don't know about you guys but if I had a major problem that lasted even 3 or 4 weeks with no resolution I'd ask them to come pick the piece of junk up and refund the money, much less 2 months. Sounds like you have been more than patient with them. john
Well, I am hesitant about asking a refund because of this:
[!--quoteo(post=345507:date=:name=Picture Salon' and private post date='Feb 7 2010, 09:08 PM)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE (Picture Salon' and private post date='Feb 7 2010, 09:08 PM) [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=345507\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]We are trying to get Epson to give us a full refund and to pick up the printer but they are only giving us 75% of what we paid for it (based upon a 12 month amortization which is ridiculous) and making us pack it up for return or they will have to chage us an extra $1000 to do so![/quote]
Hartelijke groet van Matthijs
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You certainly shouldn't have banding issues in the back channel like that regardless of any media type setting or bad profle. This is making me wonder if it can ever be fixed correctly. That along with all the ink waste.
john
EXACTLY
I have just ordered Epson media so I can do testing on it - 260gsm Premium Luster and 505gsm Velvet Fine Art.
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It sounds to me more like a paper setting mismatch.
...etc
As I said above, that can be very useful. I'd highly recommend some experimentation (though only after testing some Epson papers to baseline to ensure the printer itself doesn't have a problem).
Hi Phil
Bit busy but in short ALL of that and a whole lot more has been tried - including the paper feed thing (read the beginning of this thread and the stillekracht page). This is not something easy that can be 'settings'-ed away in a jiffy. And not something that occurred with our previous 7800 or 9800. Or indeed with the ones before that. Lots and lots of experience to draw on here, so take my word for it this isn't your run of the mill issue.
Even the paper feed thing has been tried, but not so extensively as it changes the size of the final prints which is perhaps just as big a problem as the black issues.
My first plan is to get them to sort out the cyan thing, then see where we are and confirm the issue also on Epson media and take it from there.
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Hi Phil
Bit busy but in short ALL of that and a whole lot more has been tried - including the paper feed thing (read the beginning of this thread and the stillekracht page). This is not something easy that can be 'settings'-ed away in a jiffy. And not something that occurred with our previous 7800 or 9800. Or indeed with the ones before that. Lots and lots of experience to draw on here, so take my word for it this isn't your run of the mill issue.
Even the paper feed thing has been tried, but not so extensively as it changes the size of the final prints which is perhaps just as big a problem as the black issues.
My first plan is to get them to sort out the cyan thing, then see where we are and confirm the issue also on Epson media and take it from there.
For the cyan issue, I'd be looking at having the ink system replaced. As for the rest, until it's confirmed on Epson media and matching driver settings, I don't think you'll be able to nail it down unfortunately.
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For the cyan issue, I'd be looking at having the ink system replaced. As for the rest, until it's confirmed on Epson media and matching driver settings, I don't think you'll be able to nail it down unfortunately.
When I called Epson USA, the entire cyan channel dropping appeared to be a known issue. The shipped the parts air, tech called and scheduled for 1 day later. I wasn't there when the repair was done, so I don't know how long it took to actually repair, but since that time my nozzle failures have dropped to almost nothing. I think I've had to do one clean in the last 4 weeks --- for 3 missing nozzles in 1 color. Probably wouldn't have been detectable on a print.
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I have just ordered Epson media so I can do testing on it - 260gsm Premium Luster and 505gsm Velvet Fine Art.
Hi Jason,
I am interested in your results.
Lots of talking on this forum (http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/EpsonWideFormat/message/94462) about using the paperfeet adjustment settings to overcome this problem.
On fineartpapers the paperfeet adjustment should be at +30 (!)
I printed a testfile according to these paperfeetadjustment settings.
While this might be OK for some.. it is not for me.
It is a workaround. A poor one.
As I already stated on this page (http://members.upc.nl/reppel/E9900.html): print @ 1440 x 2880 and there is (almost) no problem visible in the output.
Also a workaround.
At any paperfeet adjustment setting there is still this
wave like pattern (http://members.upc.nl/reppel/E9900.html#wave_pic) (new pic) visible during the printing proces.
This is (http://members.upc.nl/reppel/E9900.html#video) surely not how a PRO machine should be printing.
Even my old 7600 is printing black better compared with this 9900.
99% of the work I do is on mat and fine artpapers. These prints have a
lot of solid black. This black should be velvet. 100% velvet. Perfect
velvet. They are not. At all. Not even, when you look closely, at any
paperfeet adjustment setting or at 1440 x 2880 printing.
Hartelijke Groet van Matthijs.
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I am on a Mac so my choices are 1440 or 2880. I consider the other lower settings for documents only. Are you using these lower quality settings when you print your photos? I have been following this thread as I have a 7900 and 9900 but have no problems. I am interested in seeing what your printer does with these 1440 or 2880 settings on a photograph with lots of black. Can you upload one or have you done that already?
I am really hoping Epson can find a fix for you soon.
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You certainly shouldn't have banding issues in the back channel like that regardless of any media type setting or bad profle.
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Hi Dan,
When you print on Epson Utra Smooth Fine Art the driver gives you three possible quality settings.
720x1440 / 1440x1440 and 1440x2880. (Uni or Bi directional and microwave.)
On my old 7600 I was perfectly happy with the black on Fine Art papers printing 720x720. unidirectional. Microwave off.
Most operators agree that printing on fine art papers using 1440x2880 is ridiculous.
As I stated on this page [http://members.upc.nl/reppel/E9900.html]: Even with deflected nozzles you will get an acceptable output @ 1440x2880.
I printed with all quality settings. Only 1440x2880 gives an acceptable output. And it is the workarround for this moment.
If you like to see what happens during printing process look at this video:
[http://members.upc.nl/reppel/E9900.html#video]
Also on that page: scanned output making the problem apparent.
Hartelijke Groet van Matthijs.
I am on a Mac so my choices are 1440 or 2880. I consider the other lower settings for documents only. Are you using these lower quality settings when you print your photos? I have been following this thread as I have a 7900 and 9900 but have no problems. I am interested in seeing what your printer does with these 1440 or 2880 settings on a photograph with lots of black. Can you upload one or have you done that already?
I am really hoping Epson can find a fix for you soon.
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I saw the video several times. I would really like to see how a picture with a fair amount of black comes out at 1440. I really do think something is wrong it just seems to be quite baffling. I have both of Epsons new printers and have 0 desire to do a test print to see if my printer will duplicate this. At 1440 and 2880 printing photographs the output is absolutuly perfect. I still digress back to 720 as a document print setting but as you say you have been using it in the past with no problems.
If the printer shows any of these effects at 1440 or higher I would then jump down Epsons throat believe me I'm on your side.
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I would really like to see how a picture with a fair amount of black comes out at 1440.
Hi Dan,
@1440 banding is visible in black.
Cannot scan the result... scanner...jpeg...internet...possible lack of displaycolorcalibration at the recieving end will destroy the subtle information.
So take a plane and I will show you the print and... Holland also ;-)
I have both of Epsons new printers and have 0 desire to do a test print to see if my printer will duplicate this.
I understand.... I would be happy though when 9900 users would try to duplicate it....
If the printer shows any of these effects at 1440 or higher I would then jump down Epsons throat believe me I'm on your side
I am trying to do my best not to get angry...
This tech is a very nice guy and he is as baffled as I am.
Epson Holland has no throat... that must be the reason why I do not hear from them at all....
Hartelijke Groet van Matthijs
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Hi there,
seems that I'm having exactely the same problem with just one little (but may be relevant) difference...
We use a RIP (Colorproof XF 4.1) and notice this mistake ONLY when using the HalfTone-Mode. ConTone is the "standard" mode for all the RIPs using the EPSON printer driver engine. Some RIPs out the allow their own screening and separation scheme – advantage is a much more better proofing stability (vs. loss of orange/green capabilities (which do not matter when proofing).
Please find attached a scan of the blurred print. You can see the problem in Black only – in the past we had some prints where Cyan was as bad and Magenta was not so bad but not satisfying either.
So – Matthijs you are not alone :-(
Cheers,
Lorenz
PS we have tried adjusting PaperFeed – did not make a dirfference :-(
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We use a RIP (Colorproof XF 4.1) and notice this mistake ONLY when using the HalfTone-Mode. ConTone is the "standard" mode for all the RIPs using the EPSON printer driver engine. Some RIPs out the allow their own screening and separation scheme – advantage is a much more better proofing stability (vs. loss of orange/green capabilities (which do not matter when proofing).
Have you contacted the RIP vendor? If it's only happening using the RIP in a particular mode, it would seem likely that your problem is RIP related.
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@Phil
As the banding seems to be exactely the same as Matthijs described (not using a Rip) it makes me think that it is NOT related to a RIP. Seems to be connected to print mode parameters.
And yes we have EFI informed on the issue. They have been investigating the issue and wil be probably talk to Epson – which might be a very helpful channel that an enduser like me is not able to use...
Cheers,
Lorenz
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I had this same thing happen when the humidity level got really low. With normal humidity levels, no problems.
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@Phil
As the banding seems to be exactely the same as Matthijs described (not using a Rip) it makes me think that it is NOT related to a RIP. Seems to be connected to print mode parameters.
And yes we have EFI informed on the issue. They have been investigating the issue and wil be probably talk to Epson – which might be a very helpful channel that an enduser like me is not able to use...
Cheers,
Lorenz
Sorry, I must have misunderstood. I thought you indicated that the problem does not exist on your printer if you do not use the RIP? If you are also seeing it without the RIP then I agree it may be machine related although my previous comments about testing with Epson media and standard settings apply. If it's not happening without the RIP then I would maintain that it's more likely a RIP issue. That the symptoms may be similar to another user isn't a strong case for determining the cause either way.
It's certainly good that it's been reported to EFI and I hope it's resolved soon for you.
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seems that I'm having exactely the same problem with just one little (but may be relevant) difference...
Hi Lorenz,
It certainly "looks" like the same issue.
To make sure it is, would you please try to print a solid black square of 10 x 10 cm.
( Or like the example on this page: http://members.upc.nl/reppel/E9900.html#file (http://members.upc.nl/reppel/E9900.html#file) )
720 x 1440 @ unidirectional on a fine art paper like Epson Smooth Fine Art using Mat or Photoblack.
To see what happens during printingprocess you have to open the cover. ( Or use a flashlight to see what happens. )
Because the printingprocess will stop when you open the cover you need to insert two small pieces of cardboard in the locks to get the printingprocess going again.
Look for any wavelike pattern during the printingprocess.
Clearly visible on this video: http://members.upc.nl/reppel/E9900.html#video (http://members.upc.nl/reppel/E9900.html#video)
If you see comparable results it would be a great help if you could make a video of this and post it on youtube and provide us with a link in this topic.
In my case I am convinced it is not a software / RIP issue. ( Epson NL agrees ). It is ofcourse not a humidity issue. ( My studio is always @ 40% minimal )
In my case Epson NL is troubleshooting this on my machine in my time.(!)
For two months now....
The next thing they are going to do is to replace the NVRAM on my machine with the NVRAM from a 9900 that is printing flawless.. according to Epson. [http://members.upc.nl/reppel/E9900_NVRAM.html]
If you want to prevent Epson Germany trying to troubleshoot this issue on your machine ( they will start by replacing the printhead ),
make sure you have a video of the printing process.
When your printingprocess flaw is comparable to mine, refer Epson Germany to Epson NL. Case: card.nl / Stilleprint Dordrecht / EHQ-090591569 / KJFE003379
Or this topic.
Lorenz, please keep us up to date on this issue.
As I will do.
Untill I have a 9900 that is printing flawless....
Hartelijke Groet van Matthijs
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(http://www.the-farm.net/LL/img008.jpg)
Epson Stylus Pro 9900, Velvet Fine Art Paper (13"x19" sheet), 1440x720, Microweave on, Uni-directional.
Photoshop CS4, PS Manages Colour, canned profile, relative intent, sRGB source, driver to ICM (off) Windows XP SP3 x86, TCP/IP.
Source image 360ppi, colours as specified by OP. Originally squares were 10cm as suggested, but simply didn't fit conveniently on the available test paper, so resized but maintained resolution and colour.
Scanned on Epson V700 at 360 ppi with all processing OFF (ie no unsharp masking, no colour correction, etc etc).
Converted to JPG quality 9 (no visual change) and cropped but not resized.
Judge for yourselves, but I don't see any quality issues. I also have a 1200dpi scan that's too big to post, but I see no issues on it, either.
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Thanks Phil,
no quality issues to be seen indeed.
Did you also look at the printing process while printing black?
So I wish Epson is going to replace my problematic 9900 for a new one which is printing like the one you have.
Hartelijke Groet van Matthijs
Epson Stylus Pro 9900, Velvet Fine Art Paper (13"x19" sheet), 1440x720, Microweave on, Uni-directional.
Judge for yourselves, but I don't see any quality issues.
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Thanks Phil,
no quality issues to be seen indeed.
Did you also look at the printing process while printing black?
So I wish Epson is going to replace my problematic 9900 for a new one which is printing like the one you have.
Hartelijke Groet van Matthijs
No apparent issues during the printing process, although to be honest how it looks during the process is not really something I'm concerned with - it's the final result that counts.
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Major flaw with Epson Stylus Pro 9900 causes banding in BLACK only
First of all, apologies for my bad English.
I am from behind the dikes, you see.
Problem:
Clear banding (parallel with headmovement) in black only.
This is not caused by a headstrike or deflected nozzles.
As you can see: The banding is not nozzle related.
Difficult to believe this is software related since the banding is in black only (and in gray with photoblack).
It is not inktube related because the problem is the same with Mat and Photoblack.
When it is inkpressure related one would expect it to be visible also in the colors.
Epson Repair Service guys:
The Epson Repair guys refuse to come and have a look at the machine and problem.
They told me: We can not fix it and we only get paid by Epson if we fix a problem.
They told me: We know of another E9900 with the same problem.
The problem was not solved by replacing the head...
For:
Hardware - Software settings / images / updates / problem description / What did I do so far?
Go to:
http://members.upc.nl/reppel/E9900.html (http://members.upc.nl/reppel/E9900.html)
Question:
Any of you have experience with this issue? And solved it?
Or am I doing something wrong.....
Thanks,
Hartelijke Groet van Matthijs Reppel
Hi There:
We have experienced what sounds like a similar problem but on our 11880. Epson sent a technician on three separate occasions, replaced the print head twice, and still no solution. We were so unhappy with the amount of time it took and with no positive results that we are in the process of getting a refund. I would be interested to see if you would have the same problem that we do but with cyan not laying down correctly. I can send you the file if you like.
Epson does read these forums and will probably be upset with me yet again. I have already heard form the dealer who sold me the printer. He got some angry calls from them. But my opinion is that they have not done enough. They simply wanted to replace the printer. But I couldn't trust that the new one didn't have the same problem. They are apparently very inexperienced in dealing with these printer issues.
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As my decision has not be made on Epson, HP or Canon for my purchase of a 44" printer, I have been following this thread with interest.
Has there been an update on your 9900? Has it been replaced or repaired successfully?, Does it all work OK?.... Lots of questions sorry... it's just the most interesting post with regards a major purchase for me.
Thanks for your candid information.
Nick Osborne
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But I couldn't trust that the new one didn't have the same problem.
Very doubtful. I've never seen a single post about an 11880 with a problem like this, am running 2 of them myself and a good friend has sold several (I help him with support). One of the better printers Epson has made, including low clogging, speed and quality.
Replacing the printer seems appropriate - no company has never not had to do this and you happen to be the unlucky one. Most l likely it isn't even their fault, but resulted in some hidden damage during shipping or a defective part from a supplier. Apparently you didn't like that option, so I'm guessing some heated discussions have ensued. One of those no one wins situations.
Agreed it is a pain for the user when this happens, since this type of thing is very hard to isolate so it often requires repeated trips and service ... about all you can do is try a shotgun solution and start replacing stuff. Very similar to my first 7900 which they eventually decided to replace, and the new one has been stellar. I'll be trading up to a 9900 before long.
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Hi Nick,
This 9900 has not been replaced or repaired. Yet...
This week the tech replaced the NVRAM. To no avail.
Four weeks ago they send a printproof to Epson France.
I wonder what Epson France could analyse with a printproof only...
The tech used his laptop to run the testfile also.
The same problem.
An other photographer (the son of a famous Dutch photographer)
has exactly the same problem on his 9900.
Two week ago I asked Epson for compensation for
lost ink and paper. No answer. Yet...
I talked to my dealer.
They were not amused.
They are waiting for my signal to come into action.
First I am going to talk to Epson on a professional imaging fair next week.
Problem, video and updates on: This webpage (http://members.upc.nl/reppel/E9900.html)
Hartelijke Groet van Matthijs
Has there been an update on your 9900? Has it been replaced or repaired successfully?
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Hi again,
An update on this issue.
The problem is not solved.
Yesterday I visited a professional photography trade fair
here in the Netherlands.
Epson had - ofcourse - a stand on this fair.
I was able to run my testfile on a 9900 at their stand.
Surprise: a comparable issue like on my 9900.
Look at the results on this webpage (http://members.upc.nl/reppel/E9900.html#update):
Not so obvious as on my 9900 testresult
but still very visible as a flaw.
I am going to escalate this issue.
I spoke to my dealer and they are becomming angry.
I spoke to a dealer of printsupply and he told me:
Oh, I have seen this already before..This is a well known issue.
Sometimes it is solved by replacing the printhead twice...
Hartelijke Groet van Matthijs.
The webpage about this issue (http://members.upc.nl/reppel/E9900.html)
Major flaw with Epson Stylus Pro 9900 causes banding in BLACK only
Problem:
Clear banding (parallel with headmovement) in black only.
This is not caused by a headstrike or deflected nozzles.
As you can see: The banding is not nozzle related.
Difficult to believe this is software related since the banding is in black only (and in gray with photoblack).
It is not inktube related because the problem is the same with Mat and Photoblack.
When it is inkpressure related one would expect it to be visible also in the colors.
For: Hardware - Software settings / images / updates / problem description / What did I do so far?
Go to: http://members.upc.nl/reppel/E9900.html (http://members.upc.nl/reppel/E9900.html)
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How would replacing the print head "twice" help, unless the first replacement was faulty?
Looking at your sample scan from the show - the only "issue" appears to be where you have stopped the printer from completing the print. The solid black area appears fine. I think you're seeing a problem where none exists in that example.
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Yes indeed Phil,
But replacing the print head twice did the job, how ridiculous it may sound.
Nobody really understands. Unless this issue is printhead related.
Of course the output may be acceptable.
The point is: The black ink is lay down in a particular way.
Not at all comparable to the gray square.
On my 9900 the back ink is lay down in such a particular way... the output is affected.
On both machines the issue is the same.
Mine is worse and effecting the output.
That's the only difference.
This is of some importance in troubleshooting this problem.
Hartelijke groet van Matthijs.
How would replacing the print head "twice" help, unless the first replacement was faulty?
Looking at your sample scan from the show - the only "issue" appears to be where you have stopped the printer from completing the print. The solid black area appears fine. I think you're seeing a problem where none exists in that example.
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Of course the output may be acceptable.
The point is: The black ink is lay down in a particular way.
Not at all comparable to the gray square.
On my 9900 the back ink is lay down in such a particular way... the output is affected.
On both machines the issue is the same.
Mine is worse and effecting the output.
That's the only difference.
This is of some importance in troubleshooting this problem.
Maybe, maybe not. It's worth looking at, but if the output is acceptable and as expected on one machine but not another, and the "wave" pattern you're seeing from the multipass process is the same, it suggests to me some other issue.
I think you may be too focussed on what you think is wrong/unusual/different in that pattern and look at more "traditional" fault causes for your issue.
Personally, I would isolate the source data (ie try a different computer, change cables/connection type), change location (to ensure there's no external factors), change software and reinstall latest drivers, test strictly on Epson media with default driver settings for that media, change black ink cartridge, look for anything that might affect paper feed physically, test at all output resolutions with both bi-di and uni-di, print only completed prints (don't stop them part way through - I think it's distracting you from finding the real cause), ensure all calibrations (including colorimetric) are completed by an Epson technician, latest firmware.
I know you've done a lot of testing already, but again you seem focussed on an issue that isn't bringing you any results. So move past that, return to more traditional troubleshooting techniques and them investigate the results.
Whatever you might think, there's ample evidence that this isn't a widespread problem. After the initial tests that I did, I tried other media and still can not replicate the problem, for example.
Regarding replacing the printhead twice, it simply suggests to me either the first replacement head was faulty or the technician didn't perform the repair and calibration to spec as opposed to there being some actual benefit to replacing the head twice. If replacing a head becomes an option and doesn't work, I'd look at the mainboard and the power supply and ensure all the ribbon cable connections are individually checked as well as all the ink lines from cartridge to head (particularly seals).
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Personally, I would isolate the source data (ie try a different computer, change cables/connection type), change location (to ensure there's no external factors), change software and reinstall latest drivers, test strictly on Epson media with default driver settings for that media, change black ink cartridge, look for anything that might affect paper feed physically, test at all output resolutions with both bi-di and uni-di, print only completed prints (don't stop them part way through - I think it's distracting you from finding the real cause), ensure all calibrations (including colorimetric) are completed by an Epson technician, latest firmware.
I did and I did and I did. All of them.
This machine has been showing the same problem printing from 4 different PC's. Three different connections. Different software. etc.
print only completed prints (don't stop them part way through - I think it's distracting you from finding the real cause).
Of course this is what I did. At that point I noticed a banding which was not your typical nozzle issue. At that point I started looking at the printingprocess it self. I have been working with epson large formats for more then 10 years. I know about the regular issues. This was different.
I know you've done a lot of testing already, but again you seem focussed on an issue that isn't bringing you any results. So move past that, return to more traditional troubleshooting techniques and them investigate the results.
I certainly would not know what traditional troubleshooting I did not do yet.
Epson tech (he is their top tech previously working at Epson HQ) has no troubleshooting techniques left also.
The only thing left seems to be replacing stuff. To no avail.
If replacing a head becomes an option and doesn't work, I'd look at the mainboard and the power supply and ensure all the ribbon cable connections are individually checked as well as all the ink lines from cartridge to head (particularly seals).
Exactly what I proposed to Epson last week: Change the mainboard. The tech is waiting on approval from Epson HQ.
Hartelijke Groet van Matthijs
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Exactly what I proposed to Epson last week: Change the mainboard. The tech is waiting on approval from Epson HQ.
Normally, this would involve backing up the NVRAM and then loading it into the new mainboard. It might be worth discussing with them the possibility of not doing this, and having it all calibrated from scratch.
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Normally, this would involve backing up the NVRAM and then loading it into the new mainboard. It might be worth discussing with them the possibility of not doing this, and having it all calibrated from scratch.
Yes indeed,
actually they suggested this already.
According to this advice (http://members.upc.nl/reppel/E9900_NVRAM.html).
Hartelijke groet van Matthijs.
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How long have you had this printer and it has been useless? Since December? And now it is March and Epson's still jerking you around? How are you getting any printing done? Any way the dealer can just give you your money back, or give you credit for what you paid plus maybe some extra for all the wasted supplies and time, and put that towards another printer? Good luck.
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Replace Epson.
How long have you had this printer and it has been useless? Since December? And now it is March and Epson's still jerking you around? How are you getting any printing done? Any way the dealer can just give you your money back, or give you credit for what you paid plus maybe some extra for all the wasted supplies and time, and put that towards another printer? Good luck.
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How long have you had this printer and it has been useless? Since December? And now it is March and Epson's still jerking you around? How are you getting any printing done? Any way the dealer can just give you your money back, or give you credit for what you paid plus maybe some extra for all the wasted supplies and time, and put that towards another printer? Good luck.
He is in the The Netherlands. Getting your money back is the last thing they do. Class actions do not exist here. EU rules didn't change that. It is only when you can get on Dutch TV in a consumer complaint program that they act. Writing endless messages on lists like LL and the Epson Wide Format list doesn't alert Epson in The Netherlands. Recall the Orange Plague of Epson dyes, compensation was given to US customers, nothing changed or happened in the EU, not a word of information from Epson in the EU on that issue. There's a myth in the US that consumers are protected in the EU.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/)
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He is in the The Netherlands. Getting your money back is the last thing they do. Class actions do not exist here. EU rules didn't change that. It is only when you can get on Dutch TV in a consumer complaint program that they act. Writing endless messages on lists like LL and the Epson Wide Format list doesn't alert Epson in The Netherlands. Recall the Orange Plague of Epson dyes, compensation was given to US customers, nothing changed or happened in the EU, not a word of information from Epson in the EU on that issue. There's a myth in the US that consumers are protected in the EU.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/)
Yup, it's tough here in NL, the sales agreement most likely says that Epson cannot be held liable for loss of income due to use of their products...
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Hi, I would like to know if you have any news about this problem with the X900 series.
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To me it looks like a VSD issue. Replacing the head can help but i would be looking at earthling/power supplies problems.
edit: looking at the latest pic i'd agree with Farmer. you can't stop the printer and just look at the MW screening process and say there's the problem.
where's your test file, i'll try it on my 9900.
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This thread has me quite worried.
I recently made 2 prints 140 by 120 cm on my 11880 on Hahnemuhle ultrasmooth and saw the banding issue in the blacks. Never seen it before. I thought it was paper related since I had a very odd mottling in the blacks on this paper before on A2 sheets. Made the same prints on Epson Hot Press Bright and the mottling was no where to be seen. Hahnemuhle replaced the paper on that occasion and admitted the problem was theirs. Thing is the banding on the roll is parallel lines quite unlike the mottling that I got on the sheets.
I am running the 11880 with an IP RIP. The machine is 18 months old and has been a pleasure to work with. Hope this is not the beginning of problems. My plan was to avoid the ultrasmooth in future.
Time for some tests I guess. Problem is testing is both time consuming and expensive.
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This thread has me quite worried.
I recently made 2 prints 140 by 120 cm on my 11880 on Hahnemuhle ultrasmooth and saw the banding issue in the blacks. Never seen it before. I thought it was paper related since I had a very odd mottling in the blacks on this paper before on A2 sheets. Made the same prints on Epson Hot Press Bright and the mottling was no where to be seen. Hahnemuhle replaced the paper on that occasion and admitted the problem was theirs. Thing is the banding on the roll is parallel lines quite unlike the mottling that I got on the sheets.
I am running the 11880 with an IP RIP. The machine is 18 months old and has been a pleasure to work with. Hope this is not the beginning of problems. My plan was to avoid the ultrasmooth in future.
Time for some tests I guess. Problem is testing is both time consuming and expensive.
Are you getting banding on Hahnemuhle but not the Epson or is that the mottling issue fixed by new paper from Hahnemuhle and really not related to the actual problem your having?
Have your printed using the Epson drivers? This could easily be a problem related to the settings in the RIP.
This thread was about a suspected defect in 79/9900 printers, your problem really doesn't sound like a printer problem ... I wouldn't suspect the 11880 as the issue. Might have been better as a new thread rather than tacked onto this old one.
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The ink pressure problems are definitely going on with the 9900 machines with a lot of folks. There are also defective carts out there that have contributed to that confusion. For the life of me I can't imagine why Epson wouldn't replace the black cart before running around installing and reinstalling new heads. This is not new though. There have been a lot of reports with the same banding and dropping of nozzles on the very similarly designed 11880 pressurized ink cart machines. My friend had Epson over there constantly trying to resolve dropped cyan and black nozzles. The output has been spectacular, but lots of problems. Some people have no problems with the 9900 printers at all but have had issues with bad carts, I do know that. Other people have flawless results with these same printers. You see very little complaints about the 7900 that has the same system and awesome resolution. Go figure. Stay in warranty.
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Are you getting banding on Hahnemuhle but not the Epson or is that the mottling issue fixed by new paper from Hahnemuhle and really not related to the actual problem your having?
Have your printed using the Epson drivers? This could easily be a problem related to the settings in the RIP.
This thread was about a suspected defect in 79/9900 printers, your problem really doesn't sound like a printer problem ... I wouldn't suspect the 11880 as the issue. Might have been better as a new thread rather than tacked onto this old one.
The reason I brought up the 11880 in this thread is because it has already come up with some printers using the 11880 seeing the same problem. The mottling issue was solved by the paper change but now I see banding. The mottling confused the issue and led me to think the banding was a paper issue but now I am not so sure. As I said I need to do some tests but am too busy to get to it at the moment.
I have not used the Epson drivers and quite agree that the problem could be caused by a rip setting.
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Just went through this EXACT same saga. They finally replaced the printer. Guess what, SAME PROBLEM. This would lead me to believe it was either an inherent flaw in the 9900 or that something is wrong with my side of things. The reasons I am inclined to believe the former (that it is an inherent issue with the 9900) are as follows:
- Epson techs are consistently unable to print a test print without the banding issue in the dark range. On their paper, with their file, sent from their computer.
- Various paper types and brands have been used, all with the same results.
- Various computers with running Windows and OS X using different driver versions (latest included) have been used all producing the same results.
Solutions I have found (well, workarounds really, they don't solve the underlying issue, just sidestep it):
- Significantly slow down drying time per pass in "Advanced Media Control"
- Significantly lower paper feed adjustment in "Advanced Media Control"
These seem to abate the issue to the point of it being negligible. This, however, is not satisfactory. When shining a light directly on the prints, the subtle flaw is usually still visible. This is unacceptable for archival prints which command such high prices.
Would love to see this fixed, but afraid I will forever be dealing with this issue.
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Has this been confirmed as a problem on all 9900s? How about the 7900s?
Thanks in advance.
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No it has not. In fact I have heard of only a handful. I have both 7900 and 9900 and mine have had no such problems. Not sure what is going on but it is by far not affecting the entire fleet.
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I am experiencing the exact same problem. Was yours ever resolved? I tried updating the firmware to HW029 but it didn't change the outcome.
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That's horrible and inexcusable.
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I also have the exact same problem, and it's very easy to reveal it with a RIP that allows one to print only to the black channel. I'm still working on nailing it down, but it seems to be a moire in one or two of the dot sizes, and possibly limited to just K, not LK or LLK.
We'll see, frankly I have better things to do with my time...
I think it's inherent in the printer, and most images along with how the OEM driver builds black and neutrals simply doesn't reveal it. My 9600, 9800, 7800, and 9880 do not have this problem.
Tyler
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I am experiencing the exact same problem. Was yours ever resolved? I tried updating the firmware to HW029 but it didn't change the outcome.
This is probably redundant advice, but did you do a thorough head alignment? I had black problems that 90% went away after a good auto alignment, followed by manual fine tuning. I thought it was blocked nozzle banding, turned out to be head alignment.
just thought it worth mentioning.
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My 9900 (second hand) has worked pretty much flawless.
When I purchased it, I drove it back from previous owner by simply stuffing it in my car (weight and size of a filled coffin!:-), and it was driven 130 miles over two mountain passes and 140 miles. It then was packed by four "pallbearers" down a flight of stairs and shoe-horned into my studio.
Once it was set up, I did two things before printing: a head cleaning and a head alignment. It has been a phenomenal machine in the month I've been running it
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i have an epson 9900.
hi everyone,
have been reading this thread with interest. i have solved my problem with this waving in the black.
i am outputting straight from photoshop, no rip involved.
i just changed one setting and kept everything else as normal.
i set the platen gap to standard instead of auto, low and behold it worked straight away, perfect blacks!!
the platen gap is in the settings when you print in photoshop, not on the printer.
have viewed this whole thread and can't see that anyone else has found this solution.
uber
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Fantastic, thanks so much. I'm using StudioPrint, changing the platen Gap from an Epson paper "auto" to user, then from default to medium made the difference here. Going through every setting, it clearly makes a big difference. I've never seen this behavior with many other Epson large format models, just the 9900. I even saw it come and go with sheet vs roll, but now wonder if the 2 environments had different platen gap settings as well.
Problem solved.
Thanks again,
Tyler
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That's been a known fix for a while (google 7900 zebra striping for example). Problem is, the increase in head strikes can be pretty severe....
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Problem is, the increase in head strikes can be pretty severe....
And what is actually solved by that method? Is the reduced distance keeping droplet addressing better or is the dotgain (bleed) higher that way and so covering up a droplet addressing flaw?
I do not see what else it could be.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst
Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
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Well, functionally speaking it solves the issue and makes for a saleable print. That's enough for me, but it's a right pain in the butt. I can trigger it on ANY 7900 or 9900, people who say they don't see it aren't looking hard enough o roding the right test...I've tried about 10 personally - and Epson have tried a bunch and failed the tests as well. Maybe here in Aus. we got a whole lot of rejects...but I doubt it.
The only control other than platen gap that has a significant effect is the paper feed adjusment (try +20 - works well enough with most prints) - Epson are WELL aware of the issue both here and internationally and it is unquestionably a 'head in the sand' approach from them. Given the next printers are probably 12 to 18 months out and that there IS an almost bearable (but quite hassle filled) workaround - I think we're just going to have to wait it out.
The longer I am in this game, the more I realise ALL the machines have their flaws - from Imacon sharpness issues, to Epson clogging/wavy blacks, to moire/fringing and wierd purple thingies in Leicas, whatever it is - you just have to workaround it and hope they solve it next time!
Groetjes
B808
Perfect is the enemy of good - or more accurately, of getting on with the job and making a living!!
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well I have to say, for a well known problem it's been remarkable how little mention of it I've found even with extensive searching for the last few months. Discussing it with Epson, they appear dumbfounded there is any such problem, never heard of it. So though, that's been their attitude about every issue I've had with the 9900. I'm not doubting your comments at all, I'm just discouraged how access to known problems and solutions seems to be getting scarcer and scarcer.
Anyway, this is the most informed thread I've seen on this topic. The problem with mine was no doubt exacerbated by the fact that as soon as I started using the new printer and began experiencing far more head strikes than any Epson I've used in 12 years or so, with commonly used materials, I immediately changed my platen gap to wide in my setups. This setting displays the highest degree of the problem of all settings, I now see. So I've been trying to work around this problem from day one.
Anyway... may I ask- won't cheating the paper advance setting result in non accurate image length? Or am I misunderstanding that control?
I agree with your assessment that every product has it's particulars, and i can live with this if the workarounds actually solve the problem. It does make for beautiful prints when all goes well.
Tyler
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I can trigger it on ANY 7900 or 9900, people who say they don't see it aren't looking hard enough o roding the right test...I've tried about 10 personally - and Epson have tried a bunch and failed the tests as well. Maybe here in Aus. we got a whole lot of rejects...but I doubt it.
Can you elaborate on the steps necessary to guarantee replication of this fault? Who have you been speaking with at Epson?
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Can't give you the Epson names I am afraid, private discussions. Wouldn't be fair to the techs (Epson and their service agents) who have discussed it with me in the 'we know it's there but we don't officially acknowledge it' type way. And fairly they state that generally with Epson media and the settings they recommend, it doesn't happen....but then the head strikes do...and with very normal thrid party media (photo rags and the like) - it's easy enough to trigger and they have tested it themselves with the same results. Not at all sure it is ALL machines when I am not exaggerating but I genuinely suspect it's at least a lot of them.
But in the very first post of this thread are the steps to replicate....and basically you can take anEpson 9900, load it with something like Photo Rag, set the platen gap to wide, and print pure RGB 0 black through the Epson driver (paper type Epson Archival Matte usually shows it worst). Put the print under good light and you will see wavy stripes, to some degree, pretty much every time. Heck, you can go to the APPAs, take a mini torch, and see the stripes on prints all over the awards wall :) It's definitely not unusual.
On some machines, it's not obvious and basically you need a bright torch light to really see it on the print so it's effectively non existant. On others it's quite noticeable on any pure black print.
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Well there's this thread, some on DPReview IIRC, this one http://blog.howardgrill.com/2009/06/30/epson-7900-epilogue/ and when I was looking into it I found a few more, so it's definitely out there....
Epson initially played dumb with us as well. But the longer we spent with them the more it came out before eventually they started acknowledging it - the attitude now is that it's simply a part of the design and something that can (sort of) be worked around - pointing them at these sorts of threads helps as well of course, and the original poster has documented it in some detail. But whenever I come across a big Epson I try it out and I haven't found one yet I can't trigger the problem on.
Yes the basic issue is that head strikes are very common on standard. And 'auto' usually seems to lead to 'wide' and manually setting 'wide' or above induces the issue...we see it predominantly on matte papers (about 90% of what we do) but also on things like Harman glossy and Silver Rag as well, though less prominent. We don't use any Epson media so can't comment on that but I have seen it on Epson Velvet and Premi Semi Gloss for example.
There MAY be a tiny shift in image size but it's never been enough to cause us an issue - on a typical 24 by 25 say it can't be more than a mm too of shift in size I'd say.
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I've never encountered frequent head strikes or reports of frequent head strikes with Epson media or any of the popular 3rd party media with normal settings - the odd roll, toward the end, might have enough memory to need some attention, but quite rare. Perhaps you could PM me with a contact name?
I don't mean to sound as though I doubt you, but I do find it difficult to reconcile with experience.
Platten gap won't affect image size by any discernable amount.
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We're talking about the paper feed adjustment re: image size, not the platen gap.
Are you saying you don't get fairly regular head strikes on think fine art media (300gsm or thereabouts) with the platen gap set to standard? Because if so you must be a very lucky man....we print anywhere from 50 to 300 roll prints a week, mind, so our volumes might bring out the problems a bit more. But I've never met an Epson x900 series that doesn't do this...so the the temptation is to go to 'wide' and bingo, there's your problem with blacks....
(I am not sure why breaking a confidence to you, about a problem you don't have, makes sense?). I'm not fussed about being believed, I can trivially easily demonstrate the problem in practise as can the others in this thread I am sure....if you have one without this, then either you are not doing the same tests, or you are lucky enough to have a better machine. Which is great for you, not so great for us!
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I'm just interested, because I've never heard anyone at Epson say what you're saying they've said, and I know them pretty well :-) That's OK, though.
At 300gsm+ I'd typically adjust to Wide, but not to Widest and make sure suction was set medium, although it's usually only from the last 1/3 or 1/4 of the roll that the memory makes this an issue. Definitely if you're doing a lot more of that type of media (and you are), then that could account for it, but I have on several occassions attempted to replicate this fault and I can't (across many machines). I wish I could - it might be useful :-)
Glad you have a solution, but it would be better if you had one that didn't cause head striking.
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Let me get this straight, you have the option of persistent nasty dither in the black channel or potential head strikes that will destroy your heads in the mid term?
This is just my opinion, and I'm probably wrong, as I often am, but I'm sure it has occurred to many of you that this dilemma is quite possibly an outgrowth of Epson's marketing group to control the type of media that is being used in their machines. We used to laugh that Epson's "Ultra Giclee" strategy would look for a way to put chips in all their media and require it for operation. Maybe they are getting close to doing that?
They have two successful papers, Premium Luster and Exhibition Fine Art (Innova UltraSmooth) but I would imagine that about 2/3 of the fine art papers, gloss fiber media, and canvas being used in their LF printers is not Epson made. Canson, Hahnemuhle, Ilford, Breathing Color and Harmon are producing superior products in most categories, obviously. That's no secret. To me it smells like their attempt to control "media settings" to such a fine tuned degree has mucked up a really amazing printer otherwise. Course if you are using Premium Luster you're cool (unless those pressurized carts flake out but that seems easier to solve?).
I hope Canon has the sense to know they can't do that, as HP finally came to terms with and offered third party media support. In this world they can't own everything. Maybe there is a solution down the road in a firmware update. If they were smart they would do that yesterday.
john
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With all due respect, John, what a load of rubbish :-)
Although, some people have been having success printing onto metal, so perhaps you can customise a tin-foil hat? ;p
Honestly, considering the number of these printers in use, the quantum of people who appear to have an issue is extremely small. That doesn't mean that they're not having an issue, but it's hardly a mass production issue and you've already seen that in many cases Epson has replaced parts or machine for users to try to resolve it.
So let me provide you with the third option: No banding/dither and using a wide variety of third party media without issue. That's how the vast majority of users run.
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Yea, it's probably just a few bad apples ruining the pleasure for everyone. Damn whiners.
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Reading the thread backwards I see among the complainers users with a thorough experience in printing. Pity that they are the unlucky ones or Is the silent majority as uncritical as it usually is :-)
On the use of third party papers; here in Europe Epson makes exactly that distinction to lift this issue to a service case state, it is only done when you use Epson media. Not that the issue is solved by that policy, at the end the answer can still be that it is part of the design. I don't think it is something designed on purpose, I am more inclined to the idea that the technology is stretched too thin here. The droplet addressing can't cope with the normal plate gap or too little dotgain to cover up that kind of subtle weaving flaws. One of the two is solved by setting the plate gap smaller than suitable for the paper. It wouldn't surprise me if a slight difference in head quality can make or break the image quality per printer. There used to be a time that a small voltage change to the nozzles was enough to deal with that, remember the head code numbers for the 9000's. With the minimum droplet sizes of 3.5 picoliter, changed dithering/weaving methods and the high droplet frequencies needed today, a solution like that is probably too rough. Why does it happen with the latest models? In my opinion because there are Canons out there with 12 ink channels firing from >2000 nozzles per ink channel.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst
New: Spectral plots of +250 inkjet papers:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
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I noticed something like what you are describing my first 9900. I found that checking off the Super MicroWeave box in the print driver window fixed the problem for both PK and MK. I always print with Super MicroWeave on. (See attachment for snapshot of this setting.)
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When two people I know had this issue over and over on the 9900, Epson kept coming by and throwing all kinds of things at the problem, then ended up saying in frustration, "well it's not THAT bad is it? Can't you just use it the way it is?
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I'm just interested, because I've never heard anyone at Epson say what you're saying they've said, and I know them pretty well :-) That's OK, though.
At 300gsm+ I'd typically adjust to Wide, but not to Widest and make sure suction was set medium, although it's usually only from the last 1/3 or 1/4 of the roll that the memory makes this an issue. Definitely if you're doing a lot more of that type of media (and you are), then that could account for it, but I have on several occassions attempted to replicate this fault and I can't (across many machines). I wish I could - it might be useful :-)
Glad you have a solution, but it would be better if you had one that didn't cause head striking.
Well, I think that comes down to the head in the sand approach - it took ages before I could get them to admit they had heard of the problem and they knew others with it. I doubt very much they are talking about it with people when they don't absolutely have to - and a lot of this chat was with their service agents (who are here in a couple weeks time for more of a chat) - They have replaced everything basically, bar the machine - new pumps, caps, printer head etc. No change.
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All of that is happening under warranty? I presume you're not located somewhere that's particularly dry or wet or anything like that?
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Depends on what you think of Melbourne's climate :) But no, it's pretty steady in our office.
It WAS under warranty at the time. We have now let it lapse since they can't seem to fix it anyway, and we work around it as best we can. It's really only pure blacks that cause/show the issue, so it's not all that common in the big scheme of things and for the most part the printer runs beautifully other than this. That said, given we established the issue under warranty, I am sure we could push them a bit to keep trying to sort it but short of replacing the whole machine I don't think there is much left to try - I think it's endemic in the design under certain conditions and I hope basically that with the next gen. the problem will have been designed out. And that can't be much more than a year away...
BTW we have both a 7900 and an 900 here and BOTH machines have the same problem. So it's definitely NOT that isolated ... we're two for two here.
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I now remember I had a similar issue with a second-hand 7600 I bought a few years back.
On high speed, despite fresh carts, alignment, nozzle cleaning, the blacks were banded. I turned high-speed off and that solved the problem.
I'm not saying that that's the same problem with this 9900, but if it hasn't been tried, it may be worth a shot.
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Believe me its been tried. EVERYTHING has been tried. weave, hgi speed, finest detail, different print qualities, paper feed dry times etc etc.
And base paper types. That actaully has the biggest effect. I am curious what base paper types people generally use with the various matte rages they use....
We generally use VFA or EAM as the paper type in the driver.
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WHY are there so many posts on this thread?????????????
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this issue has become clears as a bell for me in the last week due to this thread, after months of troubleshooting, the problem is really head strikes, not the K channel necessarily.
Many of us, after experiencing head strikes with our new 9900s, did what we always have... widen the platen gap settings right off the bat. Then after some experience with making prints we discover this pattern in blacks is revealed under certain conditions. I for one never went back to revisit the platen setting, it's never created a problem like this before with any Epson I've owned.
So it seems the screening patterns, dither, dot placements, whatever, that were introduced with these models require more precise placement than ever to avoid interference patterns, and a large part of that has to do with settings that effect mechanics. The settings all have to be as intended. When I am on medium platen , and the thickness setting is as it should be for the paper, everything works well with the ~300 fine art papers popular here.
If I get head strikes with a given paper, then I have to find workarounds in order to change to "inappropriate" platen gap settings. One that looks promising is changing the thickness setting, I've reduced the artifact even with a wide platen setting playing with thickness, but haven't nailed any of this down. Paper feed setting testing will have to be next. I'm wondering if doing alignments with a paper setting other than the paper actually used may come up with something more forgiving, not sure. I wish someone other than us busy users would be doing this kind of testing for solutions.
It's a problem with this model, not a malfunction that can be repaired in my opinion. It baffled me for as long as it did because my previous x600s and x800s never did this.
Because of the papers I use, if I can find a cheat that lets me just stay on wide platen gap to avoid strikes, I'd could live with that.
Other than this and the weak cutter, I'm extremely happy with the printer now.
Tyler
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...And base paper types. That actaully has the biggest effect....
yes because that changes thickness and platen settings for you automatically. You can override them, but as you've reported yourself those are the critical factors, so it makes sense media settings will have an impact.
...I am curious what base paper types people generally use with the various matte rages they use....
We generally use VFA or EAM as the paper type in the driver.
I wish I could help with that, but the RIP I use let's the user define that, with of course attendant thickness, gap, and offset settings... I can select Epson defaults too, like in the OEM driver, but I abandoned them right off as I had to have access to custom platen gap settings to avoid head strikes.
Tyler
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I think it's endemic in the design under certain conditions and I hope basically that with the next gen. the problem will have been designed out. And that can't be much more than a year away...
There are already new models, the 9890/7890. With another ink set but many similarities. There is the 4900. If there are no problems with them Epson must have found what is wrong and could use that information for servicing the x900 (+11880) range. If they show the problems too then it is a question of time and this thread becomes even longer.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst
Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
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I wish I could help with that, but the RIP I use let's the user define that, with of course attendant thickness, gap, and offset settings... I can select Epson defaults too, like in the OEM driver, but I abandoned them right off as I had to have access to custom platen gap settings to avoid head strikes.
Tyler
I don't know if it's some help or support,
but printing from ImagePrint has never showed any "zebra pattern" at all. Never.
Head strikes; yes, but adjusting Platen Gap one step, and it's gone.
/Sven
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I'm happy you have had no problems Sven. Unfortunately it's not just a driver or RIP issue. I have a friend that gave up on IP with his 9900 for this exact reason... the difference with his from those reported here is that his moire was seen in extremely dark colors on PK papers, rather than the MK ~300 papers most in this thread are talking about.
I think it's entirely possible for some, even most perhaps, because of the nature of their images, their particular paper and settings, to never see the problem.
Tyler
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Just wanted to let the OP know that I had a similar experience with some unexplained banding, though not nearly as frustrating or time consuming as this, though much time was consumed looking for solutions which is how I happened upon this post.
I have since had my problem solved and made a new topic about it in the forums under the title "Something Every Epson 9900 Owner Needs To Know About Banding", though wanted to link to it through this post since this is where I first went looking for answers as well. For me, the solution was the result of an onsite service call with Epson's techs and took all of about an hour to fix. I don't know if it would fix the OP's banding issues, but is something that everyone who owns a 9900 should be aware of and add to their troubleshooting techniques.
The link is here:http://http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=58449.0 (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=58449.0)
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Tyler,
What is the issue that makes your cutter weak?
On my 2 Epsons the cutter has worked perfectly every single time.
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If the cutter starts to jam or rip the paper:
Take it off and apart. It's usually full of paper-dust.
Clean and put a couple drops of some thin oil. Be careful to put it together in a proper way.
Esp. the small gearwheels.
It should now work nice and smooth.
/Sven
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it works the vast majority of the time, thinner papers are fine. But it's simply not strong enough to make it all the way across with a thick fine art paper toward the end of the roll, which pinches the cutter head more and more as moves left. I've received all the advice imaginable about this, it's been replace 3 times, and the entire device replaced once, including motor. It has occurred with Canson Rag Photographique 310, H Sugar Cane, and Epson's own Hot Press Natural- all somewhat "hard" papers.
It's simply too weak about 1% of the time, usually fairly critical times...
It's obvioulsy a step up from the previous cutters, but it needs a stronger motor to work flawlessly here.
Tyler
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Tyler,
You are holding the heavier papers or canvas up with both hands when it is cutting?
I had what you are explaining happen to me right after the purchase several years ago. It was 36" or 44" canvas cannot remember.
As the cutter cut the wide canvas the weight of the cut section pulled and pinched the material and I got a jam.
I now position myself directly in front of the printer and hold both sides of the paper or canvas until the cut is complete.
No problems since.
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That's good advice.
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Well since this old thread has been resurrected and now going OT, I'll chime in quickly to reiterate that Epson specifically says that cutting canvas will prematurely dull the cutter blade and specifically recommends turning auto roll cutting off.
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David,
My Epson,s cut canvas like a hot knive through butter.
My print counters shows in excess of a 1000 prints (Mostly canvas) and the cutter is cutting as it did from day one.
Not sure where that information came from in the Epson chain but from "my" operational standpoint it stays on.
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The cutter on the X900 series of Epson printers is fine for canvas, according to Epson. Where did the advice about not cutting canvas originate?
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David,
My Epson,s cut canvas like a hot knive through butter.
My print counters shows in excess of a 1000 prints (Mostly canvas) and the cutter is cutting as it did from day one.
Not sure where that information came from in the Epson chain but from "my" operational standpoint it stays on.
+1
/Sven
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One more comment, if we keep this thread going it needs to be renamed or started anew. Dan, I appreciate the advice, and yes I do indeed do that now. I have a one man shop, I do many things at once, making sure I am at the printer each time a cut will occur to assist it is not my idea of a functional cutter. In fact there are times the printer may be doing several on a roll and cut in my absence. So, I consider this a flawed cutter, period. That's my point. I'm not looking for workarounds, I'm looking for Epson to improve their pro level and expensive product, I know for a fact others share my experience.
But thanks, and by the way, I never print on canvas, so whatever cutter/canvas issues may or may not exist are not what I was referring to...
Tyler
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Sorry I disagree but their is nothing wrong with the cutter itself. (At least not mine.) With wide materials it does not matter if it is matte paper or canvas.
Wide heavy materials all react the same.(Sagging on the cut side causing binding.)
I admit it would be nice if Epson had designed something to hold the heavy print from falling before it is completely cut off.
Always cost versus benefit.
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My post above about cleaning the cutter, was tip from an Epson Tech. Because I called them for a cutter problem that was
the same as Tyler mention; Canson Baryta and Hot Press.
But he also adjusted the "driving-belt" and position of the cutter. Everything worked perfect.
After that I clean the cutter on regular basis.
/Sven
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Specifically stated on the Info sheet that came with PCM.
"If your printer has a cutter,do not use it to cut the paper.The thickness of this media will dull the cutter blade.Additionally,lint from cutting the paper can clog the print head cleaning mechanism and make it necessary to clean the print head more freequently or have the printer serviced.Instead press the (down arrow) Paper Feed button to feed the paper to the cutting position.Then cut it with scissors another type of cutter or the optional manual media cutting system ( avilable with printers listed below)...7600,7800,7880,9600,9800,9880,10600.
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Yea, but the 9900 has a completely different cutter than the printers on your list.
/Sven
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Yea, but the 9900 has a completely different cutter than the printers on your list.
/Sven
ditto, the x900 series had a completely new disc/rotary cutter which does not have most of the problems of its predecessors.
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According to the fact sheet it lists the 7900-9900 and other (Utrachrome models) as supported printers, and the list at the bottom stipulates models specifcally to use the[size12pt] optional [/size] manual cutter available for those specific models only.
So I take that at face value... "If your printter has a cutter don't use it" !
don't use the auto cutter that is built in to the 7900-9900 or the others on the supported printer list for this canvas, but you can use the manual (optional) cutter available for the printers on the list wrote above.
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What a lot of rubbish!
I'm printing almost every day on our 49- and 9900, and use the auto-cutter on every media out there !!
As Dan posted, it's like "a hot knife through butter".
/Sven
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There is absolutely no reason to avoid using the cutter on the 900/890 series printers when using canvas. The comments about not using it relate exclusively to previous generations of printers.
In fact, you'll find that the driver for the previous generations of printers won't allow you to set to cut for canvas, but the 900/890 series will, which is a pretty clear indication as to the intent.
As Dan has said, there's zero problem with canvas and heavy media in terms of cutting. Wide prints may have some issues, although personally I've not found it a problem. You can set the basket to be more of a "ramp" for want of a better term, which offers some support during cutting, but still I've not found this necessary but I understand that others may have a different experience and may well print more or on different media.
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I suppose it is obvious at this point, but as an Epson dealer, I can confirm that the cutter on the X900 series printers is engineered to cut canvas. There is no longer a need to manually cut canvas. The old style razor knife on Epson printers before the 900 series had a tendency to carry the fibers to the head area as it is a static knife. The new rotary cutter does not carry the fibers to the head end of the printer because it turns as it moves across the media, which avoids the issue of fibers at the head. If a cutter is exhibiting problems it may need service.
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It frankly escapes me why there is any problem with the point I am making. To be clear- I do not print on canvas, the problems I am describing occur with fine art papers. The cutter has been service multiple times and replaced, and the errors and problems verified by a tech in the internal log. With every previous large format Epson I have owned or still own, I have not had this problem. Yes, the old cutter required printer cleaning as it was inside the printing cavity, everyone knows that, but it would print and cut print after print after print un-monitored or "helped" manually.
Other than the lack of required printer chamber cleaning and less frequent blade replacement, the new cutter, JUST AS A CUTTER, does not perform as reliably for me and others I know.
I hope Epson, at the least, hears me.
Tyler
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Other than the lack of required printer chamber cleaning and less frequent blade replacement, the new cutter, JUST AS A CUTTER, does not perform as reliably for me and others I know.
The only time I had problems with the cutter on my 7900 and 9900 is when I hold the paper OUT from the printer. Try pressing the paper against the feed chassis at both sides at the time of the cut. Readjusting the basket position can also help the paper lie flatter on the feed.
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Thanks for all the replies on the cutter.I guess I was taking the caution too literally since the form does say that the 7900-9900 are supported and not to use the cutter.
BTW -there are many ambiguous statements in the Manual itself. Cautionary statements in the left column of the pages....
"Don't do a head cleaning when using thick media" for one..
how thick?, and if your set for auto cleanings, does the printer know not to clean itself and tell you to put different
paper in?