Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: CBarrett on December 16, 2009, 08:52:53 pm

Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: CBarrett on December 16, 2009, 08:52:53 pm
So.... I'm pretty anxious to get a new tower.  My MBP is so much faster than my Dual G5 that I use the laptop for everything nowadays.  I've been holding off on a new Mac Pro as the line is nearly 300 days old.  We're supposed to get 6 core towers in March (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/12/15/details-of-core-i7-970x-gulftown-mac-pro-processors-leaked/).  However, I'm fairly annoyed that PS is still running in 32 bit on Mac whereas PC users have been running a 64 bit version for a while now (if they've installed the 64 bit OS).

I've actually been thinking about moving to PC for the tower, so that I can upgrade sooner and have the most flexibility in builds.  Not being exposed to Windows at all nowadays, would I be totally frustrated with a PC box?  Should I just wait for the new Mac's?

Pros and cons to each side?

I know a few of you have got to have a lot of opinions on the subject, lemme hear 'em.

Gracias,

CB
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: ddk on December 16, 2009, 09:06:29 pm
Quote from: CBarrett
So.... I'm pretty anxious to get a new tower.  My MBP is so much faster than my Dual G5 that I use the laptop for everything nowadays.  I've been holding off on a new Mac Pro as the line is nearly 300 days old.  We're supposed to get 6 core towers in March (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/12/15/details-of-core-i7-970x-gulftown-mac-pro-processors-leaked/).  However, I'm fairly annoyed that PS is still running in 32 bit on Mac whereas PC users have been running a 64 bit version for a while now (if they've installed the 64 bit OS).

I've actually been thinking about moving to PC for the tower, so that I can upgrade sooner and have the most flexibility in builds.  Not being exposed to Windows at all nowadays, would I be totally frustrated with a PC box?  Should I just wait for the new Mac's?

Pros and cons to each side?

I know a few of you have got to have a lot of opinions on the subject, lemme hear 'em.

Gracias,

CB

I highly recommend you trying windows on your mac for a few weeks before changing, then you'll know for yourself if you can live with windows or not. I'm in an environment with both platforms for several years and I still don't get windows!
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: Kirk Gittings on December 16, 2009, 09:13:35 pm
Chris, Thanks for the offer with the class BTW. I'll be in touch closer to class time.

As per your question. For years now I have run Mac laptops and PC towers, currently a 64 bit system with Vista-I'm waiting for all the software to catch up with W7 before I upgrade so I can't comment on that. So i have a 2 year old MBP and a brand new PC. To make a long story short (I want to go to bed soon-a long days shooting), I wish I had the resources to buy Mac towers and upgrade them regularly. I still think there is a stability and performance advantage to Macs. Maybe W7 will change my mind........my 2cs.
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: Ken Bennett on December 16, 2009, 09:17:19 pm
Quote from: CBarrett
So.... I'm pretty anxious to get a new tower.  My MBP is so much faster than my Dual G5 that I use the laptop for everything nowadays.

Man, you are describing my life right now. I'm holding off on the MacPro because I'm waiting for budget approval. (Working as a staffer has its downsides.) That might not come for a while. In the meantime, I use my G-5 Dual and watch the little spinning pizza every time I move a slider in ACR.
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: klane on December 16, 2009, 09:20:19 pm
I'm not trying to start a flame war anything, but I'd really rather not have a computer than have to work on a windows machine. The OS layout makes little sense to me, growing up my family always had windows machines, in highschool I got my first Macintosh and I've never looked back. Chris im in the same position as you I have beefed up MBP and my dual g5 has been sold for a while now, Im just waiting for the early March update to get a Mac Pro.
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: AlexM on December 16, 2009, 09:53:57 pm
I have always been using PC machines and not going to switch to mac. The performance is equal or better if you select good high-end components. For me there are much more pros for PC than for mac and I prefer to select part that I want to go inside my machine myself. Windows 7 x64 is very stable and the performance is better than with any other previous OS.
IMO trying windows on a mac is not going to tell you much but the interface.

Best,
Alex
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: Christopher on December 16, 2009, 10:12:09 pm
Well, I think there is a lot of talk about mac vs windows and in the end, BOTH systems work quite well and have there benefits. I for one really prefer windows to mac OS, but I have always worked more with windows. (However I worked with macs 90% of the time for two full years, I never really liked it and would NEVER say it is better)

In the end a PC is my choice not because of the OS. As long as the OS is similar I would ALWAYS choose a PC over a mac. It's just easier to upgrade, to change stuff, cheaper to built more flexible. I can built it myself and choose exactly which part from whatever company I want to have.

If you have doubt for windows, try windows 7 for a time. I think it really is a very nice OS and coupled with the greater flexibility of choosing all components I think PCs are the smarter choice if ones enjoys working on them. (I mean if you buy one from DELL or similar the price won't be much better than from Apple itself)

I also don't have a clue how much you want to spend. I mean numbers can start at 2000 and go up to 10.000 US. As nice as it sounds to have a 12 core computer which can handle 24 threads, well do we need it ? Will it be faster ? I don't think you will have more than 5-10% gain right now compared to a 6 core / 12 Thread computer, which certainly is a LOT cheaper.
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: Misirlou on December 16, 2009, 10:36:02 pm
Hmm. I use both all day long, and I'm currently typing this from IE8 in W7, on a new MacBook Pro. Those of you Mac users who abandoned PCs "years ago" really have zero perspective on current Windows development. Vista had its faults, but worked very different from XP, and was organized very differently. W7 is different still, and in my opinion, addresses everything I didn't like about Vista. If you're still complaing about the look of XP, you're pretty much the same as a PC user moaning about Macs only having single button mice. I actually prefer bits and pieces from both the current Mac and PC sides, and I wouldn't say either is decisively "better" for my purposes.

For the same money, a W7 box will likely be more powerful. But as long as you stay within a limited box of things you'd like to do, a Mac will probably be substantially simpler to learn. In the Mac world, things are either simple or impossible. In the PC world many more things are possible, but you will have to work harder to do some of them.

I can count on one hand the applications I had working in Vista that don't work on W7, and none of them are particularly useful or important to me. All of the big titles work fine now, and have worked fine even on the free release candidate for months now. The things that I can't get to work natively in W7 are all running for me in the XP virtual machine that comes with Windows 7 Ultimate. Just for grins, I fired up an old driving game from 1999 on my W7 64 bit tower (all the latest spec h/w), and it works well, even without resorting to the XP VM. I find that quite amazing.

Mac hardware usually has a much better design sense. The machines look better, feel better, and are priced accordingly.
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: BernardLanguillier on December 16, 2009, 10:36:36 pm
Quote from: Christopher
Well, I think there is a lot of talk about mac vs windows and in the end, BOTH systems work quite well and have there benefits. I for one really prefer windows to mac OS, but I have always worked more with windows. (However I worked with macs 90% of the time for two full years, I never really liked it and would NEVER say it is better)

In the end a PC is my choice not because of the OS. As long as the OS is similar I would ALWAYS choose a PC over a mac. It's just easier to upgrade, to change stuff, cheaper to built more flexible. I can built it myself and choose exactly which part from whatever company I want to have.

If you have doubt for windows, try windows 7 for a time. I think it really is a very nice OS and coupled with the greater flexibility of choosing all components I think PCs are the smarter choice if ones enjoys working on them. (I mean if you buy one from DELL or similar the price won't be much better than from Apple itself)

Win 7 is nice indeed, a very well designed OS IMHO.

Before switching to a Mac Pro 3 years ago I was on Win on a sort of DiY box, and already decided not to go that route again. Yes, you can cherry pick the components and assemble something that rocks on paper, but you can never be sure that it rocks for real also. Besides there will be no support, you are basically alone with your issues the day they occur and they will occur some day.

So since I see myself as a computer user and not as a hobbyst who likes to spend time building computers, it was clear to me that my next box would either be one from a mainstream manufacturer will proven support capability in my geo, or a Mac Pro.

All things considered, the Mac pro was cheaper than any of the equivalent configuration on the PC side so I went the Mac route.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: BernardLanguillier on December 16, 2009, 10:42:11 pm
Quote from: Misirlou
In the Mac world, things are either simple or impossible.

Aside from the Win vs Mac discussion, what you write is simply not factual. If you want to go that route on OSX, you can open a console window and start using a best in class UNIX command line shell than will enable you to do anything you can do using a UNIX workstation.

I used to write pretty complex scripts on AIX a few years ago (think thousands of lines) and you can do anything possible in terms of file manipulations and workflow definition, I have always found that superior to DOS shells personnally.

If you don't want to go that deep you can also use the Automator that is a great way to automate simple tasks.

So really, what you write above is simply not true.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: ddk on December 16, 2009, 10:47:15 pm
Quote from: Oleksiy
IMO trying windows on a mac is not going to tell you much but the interface.

Basically, that's really what its mostly about, otherwise, great hardware is available to both platforms and today, unless you're using software that's specific to only one OS.
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: Doug Peterson on December 16, 2009, 11:15:18 pm
Quote from: Christopher
[...]As nice as it sounds to have a 12 core computer which can handle 24 threads, well do we need it ? Will it be faster ? I don't think you will have more than 5-10% gain right now compared to a 6 core / 12 Thread computer, which certainly is a LOT cheaper.

Capture One, as an example, has, so far, scaled near linearly to additional threads in regard to processing and batch applying adjustments. That is when they went from 8 cores / 8 threads to 8 cores / 16 threads the performance throughput of processing large phase one files roughly doubled. I would very much expect the same thing when we get to 12 threads.

Whether increased processing speed and batch applying adjustments are relevant to you is of course dependent on your requirements and worfkflow.


Doug Peterson  ()
__________________
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Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: Misirlou on December 16, 2009, 11:17:08 pm
Quote from: BernardLanguillier
Aside from the Win vs Mac discussion, what you write is simply not factual. If you want to go that route on OSX, you can open a console window and start using a best in class UNIX command line shell than will enable you to do anything you can do using a UNIX workstation.

I used to write pretty complex scripts on AIX a few years ago (think thousands of lines) and you can do anything possible in terms of file manipulations and workflow definition, I have always found that superior to DOS shells personnally.

If you don't want to go that deep you can also use the Automator that is a great way to automate simple tasks.

So really, what you write above is simply not true.

Cheers,
Bernard

I'm not arguing that one can't do some powerful command line work on a Mac, and in fact my first serious home computer was built on a UNIX-like framework, so I do so fairly frequently. But I maintain that OSX is simpler at the GUI level than Windows. Someone who shys away from getting very involved with the tehnical aspects of their computer seems to me like an unlikley candidate to go writing custom scripts, or digging deeply into the world of UNIX file permissions or something, but you never know I guess.
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: Christopher on December 16, 2009, 11:33:39 pm
Quote from: dougpetersonci
Capture One, as an example, has, so far, scaled near linearly to additional threads in regard to processing and batch applying adjustments. That is when they went from 8 cores / 8 threads to 8 cores / 16 threads the performance throughput of processing large phase one files roughly doubled. I would very much expect the same thing when we get to 12 threads.

Whether increased processing speed and batch applying adjustments are relevant to you is of course dependent on your requirements and worfkflow.


Doug Peterson  ()
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
RSS Feed: Subscribe (http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/)
Buy Capture One at 10% off (http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/)


Well, it scales, however how good ? Is a 6 core 12 thread system which runs easily 500 Mhz faster, much slower than a 12 core 24 thread system ? I haven't seen any reviews but I very much doubt it. (It certainly is different in professional 3D rendering) In addition C1, is normally just a small part of the whole workflow, we all know that PS, doesn't scale at all, or well let's say it scales terrible.
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: BernardLanguillier on December 16, 2009, 11:37:15 pm
Quote from: Misirlou
I'm not arguing that one can't do some powerful command line work on a Mac, and in fact my first serious home computer was built on a UNIX-like framework, so I do so fairly frequently. But I maintain that OSX is simpler at the GUI level than Windows. Someone who shys away from getting very involved with the tehnical aspects of their computer seems to me like an unlikley candidate to go writing custom scripts, or digging deeply into the world of UNIX file permissions or something, but you never know I guess.

Agreed.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: BernardLanguillier on December 16, 2009, 11:39:09 pm
Quote from: Christopher
Well, it scales, however how good ? Is a 6 core 12 thread system which runs easily 500 Mhz faster, much slower than a 12 core 24 thread system ? I haven't seen any reviews but I very much doubt it. (It certainly is different in professional 3D rendering) In addition C1, is normally just a small part of the whole workflow, we all know that PS, doesn't scale at all, or well let's say it scales terrible.

Other apps that scale well include PTgui, Helicon Focus and autopano Pro.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: Christopher on December 16, 2009, 11:39:19 pm
Quote from: BernardLanguillier
Win 7 is nice indeed, a very well designed OS IMHO.

Before switching to a Mac Pro 3 years ago I was on Win on a sort of DiY box, and already decided not to go that route again. Yes, you can cherry pick the components and assemble something that rocks on paper, but you can never be sure that it rocks for real also. Besides there will be no support, you are basically alone with your issues the day they occur and they will occur some day.

So since I see myself as a computer user and not as a hobbyst who likes to spend time building computers, it was clear to me that my next box would either be one from a mainstream manufacturer will proven support capability in my geo, or a Mac Pro.

All things considered, the Mac pro was cheaper than any of the equivalent configuration on the PC side so I went the Mac route.

Cheers,
Bernard

Well it certainly is more effort to do it yourself, no question about that, however I never ran into any problems which I could not fix in 24 hours. Most of the stuff is quite small and one benefit of building it yourself is certainly that you can get a lot better $/performance rate.

The last part is partly true. Yes Macs are cheaper when they come out with a new model. However the Mac price changes slowly and so there are periods where you pay 40-80% bonus compared to actual hardware cost.
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: Christopher on December 16, 2009, 11:41:36 pm
Quote from: BernardLanguillier
Other apps that scale well include PTgui, Helicon Focus and autopano Pro.

Cheers,
Bernard


Well I would be interested in how often PTGUI actually uses all of your cores to 100%. I sometimes have the feeling that often other factors are much more limiting when creating panoramics. Can't comment on AutoPro, stopped using it, just find it way to slow when in editing mode.

The point I am trying to make is not, that it isn't faster, but how much really. People buy expensive SSDs Raid 0 systems and have a 10% speed gain in the beginning and after a few months the great RAID 0 system out of 4 SSDs is slower than a single SSD. The same doesn't hold true for CPUs, but to get the same clock speed in a 12 core machine compared to a 6 core system one has to buy quite a premium. Nearly enough to built a new computer a year later.
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: CBarrett on December 17, 2009, 12:00:33 am
Quote from: Christopher
The same doesn't hold true for CPUs, but to get the same clock speed in a 12 core machine compared to a 6 core system one has to buy quite a premium. Nearly enough to built a new computer a year later.


Yeah, I kind of wonder about getting a used machine with fewer cores but greater clock speed.  If Photoshop isn't using all the cores, couldn't an older machine with more Mhz be faster?

-CB
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: Christopher on December 17, 2009, 12:19:57 am
Quote from: CBarrett
Yeah, I kind of wonder about getting a used machine with fewer cores but greater clock speed.  If Photoshop isn't using all the cores, couldn't an older machine with more Mhz be faster?

-CB


Well it depends. The cheapest way to get great performance is OCing, however I can understand that most people don't want to do it. I wouldn't really want to buy a computer used. You never know how it was treated and such, however I want to give you some numbers as examples:

- i7 930 which runs at around 2.7Ghz costs 220EUR

- Xeon for a dual CPU system around the same speed costs:

for 2.7Ghz - 700EUR ( You need two of them = 1400EUR)
for 2.2Ghz - 400EUR ( Two = 800EUR )

Now I don't know any pricing of the new six core CPUS, but if one takes the current price system it would look like that:

- i7 6-core  running at 3.3Ghz CPU 800-1000EUR

Xeon for dual CPU system:

for 3.3Ghz - 1300-1600EUR (for two 2600-3200EUR)
for 2.8Ghz - 800-900EUR (for two 1600-1800EUR)

Now I am not against a dual CPU system, as I am still considering it myself, one just has to know that it is certainly more expensive, especially if one goes with the "cheaper" desktop system like i930.

In the End the real question is how much one is able or wants to spend. I mean could I spend 8k on a fantastic computer ? Yes sure, but would I prefer to spend half of it for a great computer which is 10% slower but get another lens or so, well for me the latter is much mire attractive.
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: DanielStone on December 17, 2009, 01:11:31 am
chris,

why not build/have a HACKINTOSH built for you?

windows-box running OSX. a friend of mine put one together running W7 dual booted with OSX, for about $2500, has 8 cores, 12gb of ram, (2) 300gb WD 10k rpm scratch drives, plenty of video card space, 750w power supply, in a sweet aluminum/black case(still trying to find the case online)

here it is...

.

the only downside is though: YOU ARE THE TECH GUY. there isn't someone you can call .

but if I were you, I'd get a Mac Pro, and write it off. you can just get a bare-bones one with a kick-ass set of processors, and upgrade the HD's and memory from OWC(other world computing) for A LOT LESS $$$ than if you ordered it straight from Apple.

same friend's dad(who bought a mac pro 2 months ago=graphic designer), upgraded his 2gb of stock ram to 16gb for like $500, apple would have charged like $1100. you do the math, he put one of the 300gb Raptor drives  HERE (http://www.wdc.com/en/products/products.asp?DriveID=459). my

if I had the money for a shiny new mac pro, I'd buy the bare bones one, with the best processor that fit my budget, and then waddle over to OWC and get my upgrade ram and get the HD's from Newegg. can save a LOT OF $$$$.


-Dan
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: DanielStone on December 17, 2009, 01:15:56 am
16gb ram for the mac pro upgrade from OWC

LINK (http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Other%20World%20Computing/85MP3S4M16GK/)

-Dan
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: michele on December 17, 2009, 03:03:18 am
Windows is the first virus for your computer. Remember the amount of power that an anitvirus is going to take... With mac or Linux you don't need to worry about it... Windows can work for a year, and you will see the performances going down day by day... My mac is a rock never a down. One thing that i really miss of the pc is the graphic card..2 years ago i could get 1gb of graphic card with less then 400 euros, now with mac there is no way to go more then 512mb... it's a shame... By the way, you have to buy a new license of photoshop for windows
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: Christopher on December 17, 2009, 03:09:56 am
Quote from: michele
Windows is the first virus for your computer. Remember the amount of power that an anitvirus is going to take... With mac or Linux you don't need to worry about it... Windows can work for a year, and you will see the performances going down day by day... My mac is a rock never a down. One thing that i really miss of the pc is the graphic card..2 years ago i could get 1gb of graphic card with less then 400 euros, now with mac there is no way to go more then 512mb... it's a shame... By the way, you have to buy a new license of photoshop for windows


As far as I can see with Adobe you do NOT have to buy a new license. Oh and who hooks up his workstation to the internet ? never, no matter whether mac, linux or windows
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: stewarthemley on December 17, 2009, 04:05:07 am
When I changed from PC to Mac about two years ago Adobe were very helpful and allowed me to change platform for PS for the cost of posting a CD, $10 maybe. LR was/is dual platform so no cost. But I think with most other software I had to pay for a new licence so it's certainly a factor to consider.
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: PatrikR on December 17, 2009, 05:47:16 am
I have a MacBook Pro and I run Windows Vista on it for some specialty applications.

Every time I boot to that terrible Windows a updating procedure starts. Every time there are new "IMPORTANT" updates that the computer simply can't live without. Then Virus protection and so on. The computer starts to install. Suddenly it tells you I need to restart or gives me an option to restart in an hour. Hour goes by and BOOM it shuts down. What ever I was working on is now history...

Then you try to install something and the Vista remembers that I don't have Administrator rights even I'm the only administrator.

My MacPro Xeon 266 from fall 2006 is still pushing strong, absolutely zero problems so far. It's a bit slow with Lightroom but otherwise I have newer had any issues with multilayer P45 files. Just fine and fast enough!
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: ctz on December 17, 2009, 06:12:12 am
My MacPro Xeon 266 from fall 2006 is still pushing strong, absolutely zero problems so far. It's a bit slow with Lightroom but otherwise I have newer had any issues with multilayer P45 files. Just fine and fast enough!
[/quote]


+1!

Tip for any old MacPro user, until you're waiting for arrival of The New One.
Put 3 or 4 hardrive in a Macpro and set them in Raid0. You will reach 3-400Mb/sec actual speed, compared to 80-100 for a single drive. You will think that you use a new (rocket) machine...
This will help for C1 or LRoom a lot (generating previews in particular).

Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: Christopher on December 17, 2009, 06:36:54 am
Well IO/s are more important than raw read or write speed. In addition RAID 0 only speeds up read and write for larger files and not for the normal system data.


Sorry to hear that PatrikR, but it sounds like a plain user error or user ignorance.
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: ctz on December 17, 2009, 07:04:14 am
Quote from: Christopher
RAID 0 only speeds up read and write for larger files and not for the normal system data.


I'm not talking about system data (altough I also use a SSD as system disk) but just cannot help not noticing a huge gain working with C1 and Lightroom.
And I consider a P45+ (RAW or multiple layers TIFF) a large file, don't you?
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: ctz on December 17, 2009, 07:10:44 am
Quote from: Christopher
Sorry to hear that PatrikR, but it sounds like a plain user error or user ignorance.


Yes, maybe there is an "user error".
But chances are that using MacOS you would not fall in this kind of "error" in the first place...

Sorry, just my two cents.
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: ddk on December 17, 2009, 08:02:50 am
Quote from: Christopher
As far as I can see with Adobe you do NOT have to buy a new license. Oh and who hooks up his workstation to the internet ? never, no matter whether mac, linux or windows

In this day and age many of us do! Our workstations are all networked, so are the printers, and all updating is carried out through the net.
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: Jonathan Wienke on December 17, 2009, 08:15:32 am
Quote from: PatrikR
Every time I boot to that terrible Windows a updating procedure starts. Every time there are new "IMPORTANT" updates that the computer simply can't live without. Then Virus protection and so on. The computer starts to install. Suddenly it tells you I need to restart or gives me an option to restart in an hour. Hour goes by and BOOM it shuts down. What ever I was working on is now history...

If you're stupid enough to have updates set to install automatically, you have no right to complain when they install...automatically. It's kind of like complaining that it hurts when you whack your thumb with a hammer. The solution is to quit whacking your thumb--all you need to do to fix this behavior is set updates to download automatically, but install manually (hint: it's the middle option in Microsoft Update). When updates are available they will automatically download, but YOU choose when you want to install them instead of having it happen automatically in the middle of something else.
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: erick.boileau on December 17, 2009, 08:27:13 am
in addition to the price of PCs  you have to buy the license for windows 7 64 , Snow Leopard cost 29 euro
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: Jonathan Wienke on December 17, 2009, 08:31:19 am
Quote from: CBarrett
So.... I'm pretty anxious to get a new tower.  My MBP is so much faster than my Dual G5 that I use the laptop for everything nowadays.  I've been holding off on a new Mac Pro as the line is nearly 300 days old.  We're supposed to get 6 core towers in March (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/12/15/details-of-core-i7-970x-gulftown-mac-pro-processors-leaked/).  However, I'm fairly annoyed that PS is still running in 32 bit on Mac whereas PC users have been running a 64 bit version for a while now (if they've installed the 64 bit OS).

I've actually been thinking about moving to PC for the tower, so that I can upgrade sooner and have the most flexibility in builds.  Not being exposed to Windows at all nowadays, would I be totally frustrated with a PC box?  Should I just wait for the new Mac's?

Only you can answer the question of whether Windows would annoy you. Go down to a computer store and try out some machines running Windows 7 and see. If you do a lot of batch processing or work with large files, 64-bit support is important, and should weigh heavily into your decision. On that basis alone (and the performance benefits that go with it), I would seriously consider a tower with 12GB of RAM running Win7 64-bit. If you get something with a dual-I7 motherboard, you'll have 8 cores and 16 threads via hyperthreading.
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: Doug Peterson on December 17, 2009, 09:00:13 am
Quote from: DanielStone
why not build/have a HACKINTOSH built for you?

Because you'd be violating the intellectual property of Apple.

I mean, why not go to a photographer's website and just copy paste their work into your advertisement? I have a friend who did it, and the quality was almost as good!
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: CBarrett on December 17, 2009, 09:05:46 am
I suppose I'm just going to have to wait until March and see if anything comes out of Cupertino.  I can always fix my Mac, I've been using them since OS 7 but I would have no idea how to maintain Windows.

Maybe Apple will release an even cooler enclosure and then I'll get Doug to build me a killer machine with internal raids.

; )
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: rainer_v on December 17, 2009, 09:31:30 am
Quote from: CBarrett
I suppose I'm just going to have to wait until March and see if anything comes out of Cupertino.  I can always fix my Mac, I've been using them since OS 7 but I would have no idea how to maintain Windows.

Maybe Apple will release an even cooler enclosure and then I'll get Doug to build me a killer machine with internal raids.

; )

i am in a similar situation as you ... ( once more    .. ) .
although my workstation isnt too slow its not longer supported neither by apple nor by adobe. its unfortunately the last hi end power mac with 2.5quad processor, 16gb memory and raid 0. fast enough,  but these nice companies decided that i have to upgrade now, with their politic not to bring out new software updates for power macs. thats tough.  i hate this kind of behavor from any company who does it ,- but i even hate more windows after many years of using it, so i will go on using macs.
although i thing that the new quad core powerbooks, which probably will come out in springtime, will be enough powerfull for my editing work,
so this time maybe i just will add a new hi end powerbook next summer and use my existing one as backup.

i made very bad experience with macs too buying them directly after they came out, so i will avoid this this time hopefully.
my mbp 2.2 dual intel 15" i still use was 6 times in apple shop for repair, fortunately all covered by waranty, but so much stress and waiting times for me. the quad had an exchanged motherboard and processor.
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: michele on December 17, 2009, 09:40:38 am
One thing that i hope is photoshop for linux... open source world with possibility of very good hardware, less expensive then mac and maybe better
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: teddillard on December 17, 2009, 09:41:46 am
just reading the subject made my day.  

("Windows or Mac?  It don't matter, I hate ALL computers")

good luck, i feel your pain.
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: CBarrett on December 17, 2009, 09:50:27 am
Quote from: rainer_v
my mbp 2.2 dual intel 15" i still use was 6 times in apple shop for repair, fortunately all covered by waranty, but so much stress and waiting times for me. the quad had an exchanged motherboard and processor.


6 times?!!!  Wow.  I've never had an Apple Laptop go in for repair.  They're either working fine or totally destroyed.

Powerbook 1400 ----  Cat peed on it
Powerbook G3  ---  Slipped and fell on ice (after a night out drinking) and smashed
Powerbook G4 12"  ---  Crushed between me and pavement in motorcycle accident

The current 17" is pretty snappy with 8gb ram.  I have this eSATA 5 drive striped raid I used to use with the tower and hook that up to the laptop with an expresscard adapter which gives me a pretty fast scratch disk.

Still.... 2gb layered files.... will anything crunch these quickly?
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: SeanFS on December 18, 2009, 01:29:44 am
Quote from: CBarrett
So.... I'm pretty anxious to get a new tower.  My MBP is so much faster than my Dual G5 that I use the laptop for everything nowadays.  I've been holding off on a new Mac Pro as the line is nearly 300 days old.  We're supposed to get 6 core towers in March (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/12/15/details-of-core-i7-970x-gulftown-mac-pro-processors-leaked/).  However, I'm fairly annoyed that PS is still running in 32 bit on Mac whereas PC users have been running a 64 bit version for a while now (if they've installed the 64 bit OS).

I've actually been thinking about moving to PC for the tower, so that I can upgrade sooner and have the most flexibility in builds.  Not being exposed to Windows at all nowadays, would I be totally frustrated with a PC box?  Should I just wait for the new Mac's?

Pros and cons to each side?

I know a few of you have got to have a lot of opinions on the subject, lemme hear 'em.

Gracias,

CB


I have been in the same situation = PC boxes always have such tempting specs, but then there is windows and the windows version of everything., Then my computer guy offered me a second hand 4 core mac pro second hand at a very cheap price ( especially compared to new!) and it really does the business so I can run Phocus and capture one on the proper platform . Still have the G5 for admin. The 2.66 Macpro is  fast enough for Raw processing ( and will be faster once I shove some more ram and a couple of drives for a raid system into it ) and  so I will leave off getting anything newer until the volume of work requires it.
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on December 18, 2009, 03:58:13 am
Quote from: ddk
Basically, that's really what its mostly about, otherwise, great hardware is available to both platforms and today, unless you're using software that's specific to only one OS.



Thank you!!!

Very true...I dont understand how anything else is different specially now with the cpu being Intel.

I just like to know where my files are in detail, and like to know the structure and organization of them.
I like to know if a file is moved or copied, applicatons settings are saved. etc.  I was never able to do that with a MAC OS. I would have to accept what it said.
Mac OS, I always seem to be blocked of doing something, or knowing where things are.  My first system was a MAC, and many systems to come.  Then I got a PC, and had both. I still use both.
I think it really comes down to what you feel comforatble using.  If you never used a Windows OS or XP, and don't have lots to manage, I think a MAC is great.

It would be interesting to know which OS runs "lean" and faster than the other?

If you want a PC with support buy a Dell or Hp, gateway etc.  They come with decent warranties.
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on December 18, 2009, 04:02:48 am
Quote from: Christopher
As far as I can see with Adobe you do NOT have to buy a new license. Oh and who hooks up his workstation to the internet ? never, no matter whether mac, linux or windows



I have my workstation running on the internet, but I have a differnet system for email and ftp.  so its just for updates and sometimes if I need to lookup something.
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on December 18, 2009, 04:20:04 am
Quote from: DanielStone
chris,

why not build/have a HACKINTOSH built for you?

windows-box running OSX. a friend of mine put one together running W7 dual booted with OSX, for about $2500, has 8 cores, 12gb of ram, (2) 300gb WD 10k rpm scratch drives, plenty of video card space, 750w power supply, in a sweet aluminum/black case(still trying to find the case online)

here it is...

.

the only downside is though: YOU ARE THE TECH GUY. there isn't someone you can call .

but if I were you, I'd get a Mac Pro, and write it off. you can just get a bare-bones one with a kick-ass set of processors, and upgrade the HD's and memory from OWC(other world computing) for A LOT LESS $$$ than if you ordered it straight from Apple.

same friend's dad(who bought a mac pro 2 months ago=graphic designer), upgraded his 2gb of stock ram to 16gb for like $500, apple would have charged like $1100. you do the math, he put one of the 300gb Raptor drives  HERE (http://www.wdc.com/en/products/products.asp?DriveID=459). my

if I had the money for a shiny new mac pro, I'd buy the bare bones one, with the best processor that fit my budget, and then waddle over to OWC and get my upgrade ram and get the HD's from Newegg. can save a LOT OF $$$$.


-Dan


That Looks like a LIAN tower or a Silverstone.

Couple months ago I built my main workstation(oposted in another thread)12GB ram i7 that is quad core at 3.5Ghz with 1gb fanless video card, SSD drive for OS and 2 scratch SSD'd,  with dual screen. I can hardly hear the system is on. It is blazing fast.  
All for about $1300. It has a DVD writer and even thermal readings and fan control in a very slick aluminum case by Lian, it is also very light weight.
Win7 Ultimate with CS4 64bit, C1 Pro5 (as 3.7x will not run).   I can use 400 or 600 point brush, anad it doesnt stutter.Apply any effect you want...snap.  One thing that I dont understand why it does slow is the smear/blurr finger tool.  I will take it and smear a image with 400 or 500 size, and it starts right away, but it is in slow motion.  Yes they are large files in CMYK(don't get started on me, it was just testing), and it goes at a pace.  most other things even the drop blurr are rather snap and done.  

Chris might know this one...?
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: Christopher on December 18, 2009, 07:17:47 am
Quote from: Phil Indeblanc
That Looks like a LIAN tower or a Silverstone.

Couple months ago I built my main workstation(oposted in another thread)12GB ram i7 that is quad core at 3.5Ghz with 1gb fanless video card, SSD drive for OS and 2 scratch SSD'd,  with dual screen. I can hardly hear the system is on. It is blazing fast.  
All for about $1300. It has a DVD writer and even thermal readings and fan control in a very slick aluminum case by Lian, it is also very light weight.
Win7 Ultimate with CS4 64bit, C1 Pro5 (as 3.7x will not run).   I can use 400 or 600 point brush, anad it doesnt stutter.Apply any effect you want...snap.  One thing that I dont understand why it does slow is the smear/blurr finger tool.  I will take it and smear a image with 400 or 500 size, and it starts right away, but it is in slow motion.  Yes they are large files in CMYK(don't get started on me, it was just testing), and it goes at a pace.  most other things even the drop blurr are rather snap and done.  

Chris might know this one...?


Just curious but what type of SSDs are you using ? Even cheap Intel M 80Gb cost around 200EURs each.
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: ziocan on December 18, 2009, 08:06:33 am
Quote from: DanielStone
chris,

why not build/have a HACKINTOSH built for you?

windows-box running OSX. a friend of mine put one together running W7 dual booted with OSX, for about $2500, has 8 cores, 12gb of ram, (2) 300gb WD 10k rpm scratch drives, plenty of video card space, 750w power supply, in a sweet aluminum/black case(still trying to find the case online)

here it is...

.

the only downside is though: YOU ARE THE TECH GUY. there isn't someone you can call .

but if I were you, I'd get a Mac Pro, and write it off. you can just get a bare-bones one with a kick-ass set of processors, and upgrade the HD's and memory from OWC(other world computing) for A LOT LESS $$$ than if you ordered it straight from Apple.

same friend's dad(who bought a mac pro 2 months ago=graphic designer), upgraded his 2gb of stock ram to 16gb for like $500, apple would have charged like $1100. you do the math, he put one of the 300gb Raptor drives  HERE (http://www.wdc.com/en/products/products.asp?DriveID=459). my

if I had the money for a shiny new mac pro, I'd buy the bare bones one, with the best processor that fit my budget, and then waddle over to OWC and get my upgrade ram and get the HD's from Newegg. can save a LOT OF $$$$.


-Dan
That is a Lian Li tower.
newegg.com carry them.

Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: kers on December 18, 2009, 01:02:39 pm
Quote from: CBarrett
So.... I'm pretty anxious to get a new tower.  My MBP is so much faster than my Dual G5 that I use the laptop for everything nowadays.
CB


I do not know how you can work with these large files on a G5. What you buy now is about 10 times faster...
The choice between Appe and Windows is more about what you like best- they have the same speed & processors...
I would put a raid-0 in it to make it faster and a large amount of RAM.

If you want a fast mac I would consider Lloyd Chambers very usefull website;   http://macperformanceguide.com/ (http://macperformanceguide.com/)

Pieter
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on December 18, 2009, 01:42:54 pm
Quote from: Christopher
Just curious but what type of SSDs are you using ? Even cheap Intel M 80Gb cost around 200EURs each.

OOppps... I swapped out the WD-Raptor after wards. So drives are a bit more :-)
Even with the drives....Just about $2K, as they were about $200/$300 64/128.

I am using the Patriot Torqx drives. 128GB for OS, and 2x 64GB for scratch.

MB was $150 Asus Pro
12GB ram I forget the price, but they are likely Patriot  Newegg price
i7 cpu the 870. Not the original 955. but Asus allows a overclock that I have 49c degrees at 3.47Ghz (cpu-id) $280
Thermal Silent fan $40
all alum short tower case $110
vid card $90 to 120?
dvd write $40
Sythe temp reader $30
roller stand to sit tower on IKEA  $8-15?
I also purchased an Intel NAS SS4x? (upgrades RAM) for $149 from NewEgg, and originally installed 5 500GB drives I had new.  But now I have 4 Hitachi 1TB waiting to go in as RAID1(Faster? than RAID5).
Samsung XL 30 LED screen for main

I will likely get 1 or even 2 more Intel NAS(TB drives), This will replace the 8Bay (8x1TB) Sans Digital tower I have.
and then 2x 2TB external backup to do weekly backups on each...then turn those drives off after backup, as the RAID drives can fail around the same time. and keeping drives off power will surely lengthen the life.





Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: Jack Flesher on December 18, 2009, 01:47:41 pm
Quote from: CBarrett
Yeah, I kind of wonder about getting a used machine with fewer cores but greater clock speed.  If Photoshop isn't using all the cores, couldn't an older machine with more Mhz be faster?

-CB

Speaking for myself only, my current machine is a 2x4core 3.2 early 2008 MacPro with 24G ram and 6 internal drives in various RAID configurations -- older, but no slouch even with the P65+ files.  However, I already have a buyer for this existing machine when the 2x6-core Macs this spring, so my upgrade cost becomes reasonable -- so I am planning on doing it. (If there are only 1x6core machines, then no, I won't be upgrading.)   Will CS be faster?  Not unless CS5 makes better use of onboard RAM.  And upgraded programs like Helicon Focus and AutoPano Giga (and Pro) and C1 already run pretty fast on my current machine, so maybe I only net a 15 to 20% performance gain with the new machine, but then I am future-proofed somewhat.  Not an easy call, but for me a probably yes...
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: PatrikR on December 18, 2009, 02:45:05 pm
Quote from: ctz
Yes, maybe there is an "user error".
But chances are that using MacOS you would not fall in this kind of "error" in the first place...

Sorry, just my two cents.

Like the young John O'Connor from Terminator 2 would put it: "Exactamundo"

And I do admit the total 100% zero interest into learning to control the Windows system.

But C is also right and I admit - Guilty as charged:) Patrik
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: PatrikR on December 18, 2009, 03:07:32 pm
Quote from: Jonathan Wienke
If you're stupid enough to have updates set to install automatically, you have no right to complain when they install...automatically. It's kind of like complaining that it hurts when you whack your thumb with a hammer. The solution is to quit whacking your thumb--all you need to do to fix this behavior is set updates to download automatically, but install manually (hint: it's the middle option in Microsoft Update). When updates are available they will automatically download, but YOU choose when you want to install them instead of having it happen automatically in the middle of something else.

Thanks Mr. Wienke. Sorry I had no idea that I was not smart enough to use the Windows.

Please share more tips if there are others equally idiots like me otherwise you can just pm me.
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on December 18, 2009, 03:23:49 pm
Quote from: PatrikR
Thanks Mr. Wienke. Sorry I had no idea that I was not smart enough to use the Windows.

Please share more tips if there are others equally idiots like me otherwise you can just pm me.



Ya a bit harsh on Pat there.
Yes, it is not a good idea to have auto updates always on.  Although I control it, I manually do all the critical updates anyway. I don't do any of the others. NetFrame on C1 you are forced (not sure why??)

Oddly enough with Win7 the first drivers it installed for a couple different things (vid card, LAN) worked just fine.  I did the update to the driver, and new drivers failed.  

  Thats why the MAC is rather appealing to so many, it is for people who dont care to know.  You don't really know how to organize or setup your files , with a MAC you dont have a choice, and that is sometimes a great thing....Ignorance is bliss, and it seriously can be rewarding to get else done than tinker with a computer.  
I am too controlling, as I am with my images, so I want to SEE where my files "sit".
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: LiamStrain on December 18, 2009, 03:35:23 pm
The mac gives you as much control as you want. It can run on autopilot and be just fine, or you can get as in-depth as anyone would care to and start mucking around in the Unix if you really want it.

I like that you can do both.

With Windows the maintenance is required, and often for things I really wish I didn't have to bother with. I use both at the office. But the Mac's get 80% of my work, and the PC a disproportionate amount of effort for how little I still do use it.

I think my next upgrade will be another Mac Pro, and dual boot.
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on December 18, 2009, 05:35:52 pm
Quote from: LiamStrain
The mac gives you as much control as you want. It can run on autopilot and be just fine, or you can get as in-depth as anyone would care to and start mucking around in the Unix if you really want it.

I like that you can do both.

With Windows the maintenance is required, and often for things I really wish I didn't have to bother with. I use both at the office. But the Mac's get 80% of my work, and the PC a disproportionate amount of effort for how little I still do use it.

I think my next upgrade will be another Mac Pro, and dual boot.


Is the Unix mode with a differnt GUI or is it command line?
If the latter....Who wants to go into it in Unix command line to do anything?  I certainly dont.  it is bad enough we are tinkering with the PC's in Windows Explorer (Windows7 did some very nice additions), now we need to go back to Dos on the MAC to handle things...No Thanks!  But if it has a GUI to manage the files, then for me...It all comes down to the esthetics and if you want to pay the price for it.  I loved the look of the G5. (My version used to run super hot), but the Lian cases are so stealth and lightweight, all aluminum, and clean lines, I am very happy with it.  

At the end, its all about you being happy...or the Art Director that has to look over your shoulder, and has no clue yet is convisnced that MAC's are the better for design/PS/graphics.
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: LiamStrain on December 18, 2009, 05:45:53 pm
The Unix base is command line. But even when using the GUI, it's not as tho OSX is moving your files around unless you are silly about what software you are using and how it's set up (iPhoto for instance, which is crap software to begin with). I guess I didn't understand your comment about "where the files sit" ... Mine are organized in the same file structure across both systems, and can be browsed, moved, organized, etc. however I wish.

Functionally, the operating systems are very similar. I just have to do less to the mac to keep it running well.
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on December 18, 2009, 05:55:06 pm
Quote from: LiamStrain
The Unix base is command line. But even when using the GUI, it's not as tho OSX is moving your files around unless you are silly about what software you are using and how it's set up (iPhoto for instance, which is crap software to begin with). I guess I didn't understand your comment about "where the files sit" ... Mine are organized in the same file structure across both systems, and can be browsed, moved, organized, etc. however I wish.

Functionally, the operating systems are very similar. I just have to do less to the mac to keep it running well.


Ok, now you got me up to fire up the Mac (OS 10.4?6? one of those)and take another look with more patients :-)

I like seeing each of my drives and computers on the network. right clicking getting the info and sharing the idividual folders for users rather simple.
On the Mac, I never got used to the way it lays out the file structure "tree" as You get the drive or drives, then applications just along the drives then the docs also along. I dont think you can change that.

Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on December 18, 2009, 06:33:06 pm
I can get used to it. It does have somewhat of a left pane, but it is far from a skeletal view of the structure of files. ...not in a way I am used to seeing it and still "masked" ..  Ya, just what you prefer.  If anyone is buying either a PC or MAC, just buy them with some assured warranty. they are the same crap.  If you are building your own, than obviously you are on a PC, or some modded MAC.

So to the OG poster....the answer is obvious...Find a good lab, and stock on film :-) HA!

Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: RobertJ on December 20, 2009, 03:48:10 pm
This thread is hilarious.  Some of these posts... Wow.  This is like reading a report on computers from Ken Rockwell.

Lots of ignorance going on in here about computers, whether PC or Mac.  

And that post from michele that says "Windows is the first virus for your computer blah blah..." REALLY takes the cake.  Wow!  Seriously?  People like you shouldn't be allowed to use computers.  Period.  

PC vs. Mac threads = EPIC FAIL.
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: Jonathan Wienke on December 20, 2009, 10:19:21 pm
Quote from: PatrikR
Thanks Mr. Wienke. Sorry I had no idea that I was not smart enough to use the Windows.

If you'd have simply asked how to keep Windows from rebooting while you're in the middle of doing something important, you'd have gotten a reasonable answer to a reasonable question. But if you're going to criticize the OS for something so obviously user error, you should expect a few chuckles at your expense, like the guy who called tech support because the "cup holder" on his tower kept retracting and spilling his drink every time he rebooted his computer...
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on December 21, 2009, 12:05:07 am
Quote from: Jonathan Wienke
If you'd have simply asked how to keep Windows from rebooting while you're in the middle of doing something important, you'd have gotten a reasonable answer to a reasonable question. But if you're going to criticize the OS for something so obviously user error, you should expect a few chuckles at your expense, like the guy who called tech support because the "cup holder" on his tower kept retracting and spilling his drink every time he rebooted his computer...
I never use that cup holder anyway, 'cuz it's too small for my beer stein (urp!) 
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on December 21, 2009, 02:59:07 am
Quote from: Eric Myrvaagnes
I never use that cup holder anyway, 'cuz it's too small for my beer stein (urp!) 


One thing I learned after wanting to give my MAC another go with patients and open mind approach......

If you have a lot of files and you are often managing them...I don't care if it does have Unix, it is a PAIN IN THE A$$ to manage my photos and files... to move them arround, and simple drag clicks become anoying chores.
And this is just my capture folders!  If you are used to it, that is great for you.

I also wonder what apps people cannot run on the MAC that (or just about every) user end up getting Windows to run on a MAC?  This I ask, as I can see file managing being the number 1 reason for me.

If you are not married into MAC software, and think you might run Windows on your MAC....Just get a PC. get a warranty, or have a knowledgable tech build you one.

Many newbie people think that Photoshop or other design or graphic software work better, or is easier to use on the MAC....SIMPLY, NOT ANYWHERE CLOSE TO TRUTH.  
Most things are identical...Things that are not, are a keystroke difference.  Thats it.

There is not one thing you can do on the Mac version of Adobe products that you cannot do on the PC version. (I might be wrong, but there are PC exclusive functions that the MAC doesn't have now)  I know this is likely very basic info, but I wanted to mention it in case there are viewers out there that might need to get that straight first.
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: LiamStrain on December 21, 2009, 03:39:57 am
I guess I must be used to it. I don't see any practical difference between the file structures and the way I use them.

I'd be curious to look over your shoulder some time Phil. To see what you are doing to organize your files.

I agree - there is no compelling reason to go with mac for graphics work. Not anymore anyway.

That said - I maintain that I have to do less futzing around with the computer itself, and can just concentrate on work, when using the mac.

But we'll probably have to agree to disagree.



The only reason I installed windows on my big mac's is to run autocad - which was not made in a mac friendly version (don't know if they've changed that). That, and working inside large corporations, the mac's tend to not play as well with MS exchange servers and NTLM authentication proxies. That's gradually changing, but has been a royal pain, running windows solved several of those issues without having to build redundant systems, or scrap legacy software.
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on December 21, 2009, 03:49:28 am
Quote from: LiamStrain
I guess I must be used to it. I don't see any practical difference between the file structures and the way I use them.

I'd be curious to look over your shoulder some time Phil. To see what you are doing to organize your files.

I agree - there is no compelling reason to go with mac for graphics work. Not anymore anyway.

That said - I maintain that I have to do less futzing around with the computer itself, and can just concentrate on work, when using the mac.

But we'll probably have to agree to disagree.



The only reason I installed windows on my big mac's is to run autocad - which was not made in a mac friendly version (don't know if they've changed that). That, and working inside large corporations, the mac's tend to not play as well with MS exchange servers and NTLM authentication proxies. That's gradually changing, but has been a royal pain, running windows solved several of those issues without having to build redundant systems, or scrap legacy software.


Only if you don't breathe heavily on my ears, and give me a 10 minute massage ...:-)

I have to open multiple Finder windows to get one thing out of a folder into another. and If I don't have the app I am using (C1 for instance) "Show me in Finder", I still don't know where that folder resides in any of the "views", and how many multiples of it I have, and it makes a of a mess, specially in C1 making multiple folders for Capture.
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: brumbaer on December 21, 2009, 04:34:24 am
Hello,

 
Quote from: Phil Indeblanc
I have to open multiple Finder windows to get one thing out of a folder into another.

I do not want to discuss whether having a source and a destination window is faster, clearer or whatever compared to doing the operation in one window. But let me point out, that you can copy files and folders in a single Finder window as well. Especially in the column view you can work as you can in the windows tree view. And if you are dragging a file or folder in any view, onto an folder it will open and let you travel down the directory tree to wherever your file shall go to.  The copy and paste method works equally well as it does in windows, also without the need of a second window.

 
Quote from: Phil Indeblanc
and If I don't have the app I am using (C1 for instance) "Show me in Finder", I still don't know where that folder resides in any of the "views", and how many multiples of it I have, and it makes a of a mess, specially in C1 making multiple folders for Capture.

I do not see that to be different in Windows. The app tells you where it's files are or it doesn't. If it doesn't you have to look for them.
As soon as you understand where the app puts it's files you know where to look, but again that's the same for any OS.
If you have a filename or an idea of an filename, spotlight and the Finder search will quickly find what you are looking for including duplicates, even if you do not know where the app stores it's file.

If you are happy with Windows and the way it works and the additional control it pretends to offer, why try OS X anyway. Stay with Windows, be happy and productive and let Mac users be happy and productive with OS X.

Most wouldn't call Windows a failure, because it doesn't work like the Norton Commander they are used to.

Regards
SH







Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: Theresa on December 24, 2009, 05:43:25 pm
Quote from: CBarrett
So.... I'm pretty anxious to get a new tower.  My MBP is so much faster than my Dual G5 that I use the laptop for everything nowadays.  I've been holding off on a new Mac Pro as the line is nearly 300 days old.  We're supposed to get 6 core towers in March (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/12/15/details-of-core-i7-970x-gulftown-mac-pro-processors-leaked/).  However, I'm fairly annoyed that PS is still running in 32 bit on Mac whereas PC users have been running a 64 bit version for a while now (if they've installed the 64 bit OS).

I've actually been thinking about moving to PC for the tower, so that I can upgrade sooner and have the most flexibility in builds.  Not being exposed to Windows at all nowadays, would I be totally frustrated with a PC box?  Should I just wait for the new Mac's?

Pros and cons to each side?

I know a few of you have got to have a lot of opinions on the subject, lemme hear 'em.

Gracias,

CB

I have used both a iMac and Windows PCs extensively but do not have a professional workflow.  I am glad I went back to Windows.  The hardware can be both cheaper and better if you assemble it yourself.  I put this system together for about $1200 and a comparable Mac Pro would have been at least twice that.  It has a quad core i7 processor, 6GB RAM, and 2.5 TB of HD space.  The video card is an ATI 4870, last years technology but still faster than all but the most expensive options for a Mac and the monitor is a 25" one I already had.  The problem for me with the iMac is it couldn't be upgraded or expanded, outside of USB and Firewire disks.  eSATA is much faster than even USB 3.  I will be able to pop a 6 core processor into it if I ever need to.  I think OSX is a marginally better operating system but as someone mentioned it is significantly different from Windows so you may have trouble adapting.  Software is available for both, with rare exceptions it may be better on one than the other.  The fanbois of either system will tell you that one is vastly better than the other, but that is not my experience.  As someone said, try Windows 7 64 bit in either Parallels or the other (the name slips my mind) virtualizing software.  It runs quite well and you can get an idea if you will be able to work with Windows.  The learning curve for basic use is not steep for either Windows or Mac these days.  The Mac has wonderful industrial design but IMHO that does not make it more useful.  Back in the mid-80s the Mac was MUCH better than a pc running MSDOS, but those days are long past.  If you want to be pragmatic try both.  If you are highly emotionally attached to OSX then stay with it.  I think the world is enriched by diversity and the Mac adds that to the computer world, but I don't miss using one.  It is possible to use OSX on a non-Apple PC but that requires much tweaking and incompatibilities with hardware remain.
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on December 24, 2009, 06:16:18 pm
Quote from: CBarrett
So.... I'm pretty anxious to get a new tower.  My MBP is so much faster than my Dual G5 that I use the laptop for everything nowadays.  I've been holding off on a new Mac Pro as the line is nearly 300 days old.  We're supposed to get 6 core towers in March (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/12/15/details-of-core-i7-970x-gulftown-mac-pro-processors-leaked/).  However, I'm fairly annoyed that PS is still running in 32 bit on Mac whereas PC users have been running a 64 bit version for a while now (if they've installed the 64 bit OS).

I've actually been thinking about moving to PC for the tower, so that I can upgrade sooner and have the most flexibility in builds.  Not being exposed to Windows at all nowadays, would I be totally frustrated with a PC box?  Should I just wait for the new Mac's?

Pros and cons to each side?

I know a few of you have got to have a lot of opinions on the subject, lemme hear 'em.

Gracias,

CB



I am interested to know if any of these posts really helped you take a pick? Did you learn anything from them?  Cheers!
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: free1000 on December 27, 2009, 10:38:06 am
I used PC's up until 2004 when I bought my first mac Laptop. In 2008 I switched from the PC towers to the Mac and now I would not go back to PC's.

The Mac has similar if not better performance for my pro photo workflow.
It has a better customer relationship management software than PC's (Daylite from Marketcircle).

But more importantly it has a lower cost of ownership than the PC did.

I no longer have to.

1) Run maintenance utilities like registry maintenance tools.
2)  Reinstall Windows on a regular basis when the registry gets corrupt for some undiagnosable reason.
3) Learn a superficially different UI every time there is a major OS release and spend ages hunting down where Msoft have decided to move my shortcuts, etc. in the latest OS build.
4) Undo numerous screws and fiddly bits to slot in a new hard drive.

When upgrading from an older mac to a new one.

I can use the migration assistant to move all my apps and data to the new machine, instead of starting a new

For backing up

I can easily use Carbon Copy Cloner to maintain an always ready bootable backup of my system drive.

This all ensures cheaper and easier operation and saves me on average 2 days of IT and maintenance per annum. And time is money.

Resale costs

When I want to upgrade, my macs have substantially less depreciation than PC's, as a result the true cost can be substantially lower than a plasticy PC.

Longevity.

That first powerbook 12 I bought as an experiment lay in the corner of my studio only occastionally used until last week when my partners HP laptop (4 years old) finally kicked the bucket, I've now moved her onto the PB as she is just using her computer for web surfing, email and playing with photos from her compact camera. So thats already 5 years of use whereas that HP laptop she bought has fallen apart after a shorter time.

I make the total cost of ownership of Macs to be lower than PC's. Not a scientific assessment, but that's my gut feel.
 

Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: Fritzer on December 27, 2009, 02:25:13 pm
Quote from: CBarrett
So.... I'm pretty anxious to get a new tower.  My MBP is so much faster than my Dual G5 that I use the laptop for everything nowadays.  I've been holding off on a new Mac Pro as the line is nearly 300 days old.  We're supposed to get 6 core towers in March (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/12/15/details-of-core-i7-970x-gulftown-mac-pro-processors-leaked/).  However, I'm fairly annoyed that PS is still running in 32 bit on Mac whereas PC users have been running a 64 bit version for a while now (if they've installed the 64 bit OS).

I've actually been thinking about moving to PC for the tower, so that I can upgrade sooner and have the most flexibility in builds.  Not being exposed to Windows at all nowadays, would I be totally frustrated with a PC box?  Should I just wait for the new Mac's?

Apart from some filters, Photoshop is still a single core app, so the possibly upcoming 16 core mac won't do much for you.
I made the switch from a G5/2Ghz and a MBP ('08) to a 2008 MacPro 2.8Ghz some time ago, and the MacPro is significantly faster than both, day-and-night faster, actually.

With a decent amount of RAM (12-16GB) and a Raid0 scratch disk (only two drives), it's a very fast system, dealing with Aptus 75 files.
For more info on optimization, look here (http://macperformanceguide.com/) .

I have never used PS (CS4 here) in 64bit Windows, hence I can't comment on possible advantages of the 64bit PhotoShop .
Also, I'm running Windows XP on a seperate harddrive for a few programs - haven't tried Windows 7 yet.

If 7 is any similar to XP in the widest sense, I'll never be tempted to switch from OSX; it's not only the utter ugliness of XP, but also the non-intuitive file and system structure , and vulnerabilty to any hardware, software and malware issues imaginable.

People more capable than me have suggested that Windows needs to be re-done from scratch, much like Apple did with OSX, to become a modern OS.
I'm not very fond of many of Apple's current offerings, in particular the Pro line, but imho you just can't beat the OS for ease of use and mind.
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: CBarrett on December 27, 2009, 03:00:43 pm
Quote from: Phil Indeblanc
I am interested to know if any of these posts really helped you take a pick? Did you learn anything from them?  Cheers!

I don't think I learned too much I didn't know... after battling with a bout of The OS is always Greener... I'm pretty sure I'm stickin with Mac.  Well, I've got until the new towers are released to thin kabout it, anyway.  No sense in investing in an aging machine.

I'll likely go with whatever midrange machine they release, 16gig RAM and 6 internal drives with the 3rd party expansion kit.  Maybe 1 4 drive Raid 0 for scratch and a 2 drive Raid 0 for OS.  Perhaps then my 5 drive eSATA Raid box will be reassigned to active job storage while the new Drobo serves as the Vault... incrementally backed up to external FW drive.... yada yada
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on December 27, 2009, 03:11:24 pm
Quote from: CBarrett
I'll likely go with whatever midrange machine they release, 16gig RAM and 6 internal drives with the 3rd party expansion kit.  Maybe 1 4 drive Raid 0 for scratch and a 2 drive Raid 0 for OS.  Perhaps then my 5 drive eSATA Raid box will be reassigned to active job storage while the new Drobo serves as the Vault... incrementally backed up to external FW drive.... yada yada


I just purchased 2 Intel NAS SS4200e.  each can hold 4 drives.  Very easy to use, and on sale for $135 shipped from Buy.com. Newegg had it on sale, but back up to $220.

I have 1 running with Raid0+1, it is upgradable, and it is super fast.

I recommend this for fast storage of mid sized needs.

best!
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: pcunite on December 27, 2009, 03:56:57 pm
Quote from: Fritzer
If 7 is any similar to XP in the widest sense, I'll never be tempted to switch from OSX; it's not only the utter ugliness of XP, but also the non-intuitive file and system structure , and vulnerabilty to any hardware, software and malware issues imaginable.

People more capable than me have suggested that Windows needs to be re-done from scratch, much like Apple did with OSX, to become a modern OS. I'm not very fond of many of Apple's current offerings, in particular the Pro line, but imho you just can't beat the OS for ease of use and mind.

There are a lot of misinformed people in the world as well. Windows XP and newer running in LUA+SRP mode (google it) are some of the most secure systems available equaling a Linux system in SELinux mode. Your most likely a fine photographer but neither you nor your friends are experts at OS management. Run MAC because you think it is pretty not because it is secure.
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: CBarrett on December 27, 2009, 04:00:46 pm
Quote from: pcunite
There are a lot of misinformed people in the world as well. Windows XP and newer running in LUA+SRP mode (google it) are some of the most secure systems available equaling a Linux system in SELinux mode. Your most likely a fine photographer but neither you nor your friends are experts at OS management. Run MAC because you think it is pretty not because it is secure.


Well,  I do like a pretty OS.  I'm sure I only considered switching because Windows 7 is sooo shiney!
Title: Stupid Computers
Post by: Jonathan Wienke on December 28, 2009, 01:44:30 am
Quote from: pcunite
There are a lot of misinformed people in the world as well. Windows XP and newer running in LUA+SRP mode (google it) are some of the most secure systems available equaling a Linux system in SELinux mode. Your most likely a fine photographer but neither you nor your friends are experts at OS management. Run MAC because you think it is pretty not because it is secure.

Either OS can be secured quite well. I've done some work at a 3-letter agency on their classified network, and PCs outnumbered Macs, except in the photo department.