Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: woof75 on November 30, 2009, 09:55:14 am
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"When tethered via USB the S2's performance is dramatically reduced. Each frame takes about 15 seconds to transmit to the computer and then a further five seconds till the image appears"
This is the most ridiculous oversight I've seen in a long time, does Leica have any idea what a professional photographer does. Is this a dentists camera after all...
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"When tethered via USB the S2's performance is dramatically reduced. Each frame takes about 15 seconds to transmit to the computer and then a further five seconds till the image appears"
This is the most ridiculous oversight I've seen in a long time, does Leica have any idea what a professional photographer does. Is this a dentists camera after all...
You left out a further part of the comment. That paragraph was wildly confused. I am not sure what the resulting FPS was, I got the impression that 15 shots were fired per minute.
"When tethered via USB the S2's performance is dramatically reduced. Each frame takes about 15 seconds to transmit to the computer and then a further five seconds till the image appears. This means that just 15 frames can be shot continuously in 60 second when tethered, and it takes a further 43 seconds to fully resolve all 15 frames."
Anyway, it isn't an oversight until the camera is shipped Right now the images are 70MB. Perhaps they will be half that upon shipping, doubling the firing rate. We'll have to wait to see. It does sound quite suboptimal to put it lightly.
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You left out a further part of the comment. That paragraph was wildly confused. I am not sure what the resulting FPS was, I got the impression that 15 shots were fired per minute.
"When tethered via USB the S2's performance is dramatically reduced. Each frame takes about 15 seconds to transmit to the computer and then a further five seconds till the image appears. This means that just 15 frames can be shot continuously in 60 second when tethered, and it takes a further 43 seconds to fully resolve all 15 frames."
Anyway, it isn't an oversight until the camera is shipped Right now the images are 70MB. Perhaps they will be half that upon shipping, doubling the firing rate. We'll have to wait to see. It does sound quite suboptimal to put it lightly.
It's just the most bizzare design imaginable, every pro I know who shoots MF shoot tethered, it's just how it's done nowadays. Fingers crossed things will get better. I'm not sure Leica will even survive this massive blunder. Save's me some money I guess, I half had my eye on the S2.
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It's just the most bizzare design imaginable, every pro I know who shoots MF shoot tethered, it's just how it's done nowadays. Fingers crossed things will get better. I'm not sure Leica will even survive this massive blunder. Save's me some money I guess, I half had my eye on the S2.
Hi,
We really like what we've seen of the Leica S2. We have been working with Leica in showing it to our customers to get their input and pre sell the unit when production is up to speed. Hardware & Software are still in development. Am I happy about the current tethered shot rate, no, but they know that and are very happy to receive input on how to make the system better. Not all pros shot tethered, it will depend on how they want to control the shooting situation. Give it a test when it's released and when they have the software finalized.
Best,
Rich Andres
Foto Care Digital
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It's not just the tether transfer speed, the buffer sucks. No way around it. I even get annoyed with the 15-17 shot buffer on a Canon 5DII.
Good luck to Leica. Selling a camera with big "yeh, but" to quite a few things is lame in 2009, even worse in 2010. I bet money it will be delayed even more. Michael's very reasonable test proves that a lot of work is still yet needed.
Camera companies need to seriously do as photographers ask for in specs not just listen and pick and choose. There are plenty of $1-3K cameras with better buffers and tethering, cameras that may not even be used all that much for their buffer or better tethering. Leica needs to wake up. Buying a camera on looks and label alone went out in 2008. It's a new world.
Oh yeh, this is a 160-320 ISO camera. They should just cap it off there. 1250 ISO should never be an option. The original Canon 1Ds had better 1250. That was in 2002.
I think one very large concept that Leica doesn't demonstrate it understands is that digital cameras are computers, not just cameras. Leica was and is a camera company. If they want to be a digital camera company then churn out product better and faster, with sizable improvements to their own products but also to competitors' products.
+1
peter
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We have been working with Leica in showing it to our customers to get their input and pre sell the unit
For the full effect.
1. Go to this link http://www.lala.com/#search/what%20was%20it%20you%20wanted (http://www.lala.com/#search/what%20was%20it%20you%20wanted) hit track #2.
BC
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"When tethered via USB the S2's performance is dramatically reduced. Each frame takes about 15 seconds to transmit to the computer and then a further five seconds till the image appears"
This is the most ridiculous oversight I've seen in a long time, does Leica have any idea what a professional photographer does. Is this a dentists camera after all...
Hi
Once the nine shot buffer is full to a card:
"Once the nine frame buffer is full it takes 20 seconds to completely clear, but if you keep your finger on the shutter release you can take one additional frame every five seconds while the buffer is writing to the card."
This performance by the S2 for both tethered & card is not at Pro level.
Denis
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This performance by the S2 for both tethered & card is not at Pro level.
Denis
My bet is that Leica can simply ignore the pro market and sell these things to wealthy amateurs. THAT is their market for this camera; not pros. There are way more wealthy amateurs out there than pros shooting tethered in a commercial studio. (Wouldn't you just love to see the market share demographics, just out of curiosity?) I'd bet it might be as high as 10:1.
Their target market will never tether, and will never come close to hitting the buffer. They'll shoot low-volume landscapes, or whatever, and probably be incredibly happy with the camera. I am dead serious.
I'm betting that, if we could ever get our paws on those top-secret demographic break-out sheets, we'd find that professional photographers that are owning and using MF gear, and tethering, are but a tiny blip on anybody's radar. My bet is, most pros that are tethering with paying jobs are renting the whole rig either from the studio, or from a Tech. They shoot the job, hand the camera to the Tech, and wave goodbye.
This S2 is a camera to go into an Eddie Bauer Expedition, or a Range Rover. Not a Grip Truck.
Having said that, can you imagine that some Leica engineer sat there with his stopwatch, and timed Twenty Seconds before the RAW came in at a full rez, and said, "Yes, that is perfect. Much faster than 669 Polaroid! Ship it!"
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Having said that, can you imagine that some Leica engineer sat there with his stopwatch, and timed Twenty Seconds before the RAW came in at a full rez, and said, "Yes, that is perfect. Much faster than 669 Polaroid! Ship it!"
Hi
DOA!
LOL
Denis
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Hi
Once the nine shot buffer is full to a card:
"Once the nine frame buffer is full it takes 20 seconds to completely clear, but if you keep your finger on the shutter release you can take one additional frame every five seconds while the buffer is writing to the card."
This performance by the S2 for both tethered & card is not at Pro level.
It makes the body for sure un-usable for panoramic work. Again, this reminds me exactly of the kind of performance I was seeing with my Mamiya ZD.
Cheers,
Bernard
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It makes the body for sure un-usable for panoramic work. Again, this reminds me exactly of the kind of performance I was seeing with my Mamiya ZD.
Cheers,
Bernard
Thanks for saying that & at least the ZD had an 11 shot buffer now 22 with the new Zd back. The ZD was a 2004 design & the S2 a 2008 design. Really how could they get this so wrong, they could have learned from the ZD mistakes.
Denis
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Thanks for saying that & at least the ZD had an 11 shot buffer now 22 with the new Zd back. The ZD was a 2004 design & the S2 a 2008 design. Really how could they get this so wrong, they could have learned from the ZD mistakes.
Denis
Smooth tethered shooting is one of the big advantages i use mfdb instead of dslr in the studio. Good thing I've already bought amy mfdb
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It's not a mistake they made, come on, they cant be that stupid! It just shows who is their targeted market. And they can't admit it and advertise the camera as a 'great entry in wealthy amateurs collection' because such a message wouldn't attract the wealthy amateurs
Special Leica calculator has shown that developing a decent buffer making it an optional investment for a pro is not worth it. The buffer won't change the fact that each tech gear snob will want one. And let them have it, peace and love.
Oh and I'v seen used Zd back for $1700 today, still nobody wants it.
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Hi,
We really like what we've seen of the Leica S2. We have been working with Leica in showing it to our customers to get their input and pre sell the unit when production is up to speed. Hardware & Software are still in development. Am I happy about the current tethered shot rate, no, but they know that and are very happy to receive input on how to make the system better. Not all pros shot tethered, it will depend on how they want to control the shooting situation. Give it a test when it's released and when they have the software finalized.
Best,
Rich Andres
Foto Care Digital
I'd be surprised if Leica can survive this.
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software updates won't change the port to fw800...but maybe the port really is already usb 3.0 compatible?...so we just have to wait a couple of years for a pc/mac to actually handle it?.....either way, i think they have a slide in module for wireless tethering planned...i wonder if it is wifi a, b or g....
how can anyone come up with a camera these days that is usable at only 160 or 320....
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- ISO-performance is pre-production-stage - it doesn't make sense to argue about that, especially not based on processed JPGs in the net.
- Let's hope it's compatible to USB 3.0, but there is currently no standard available which fits the needs of tethered shooting - we don't know how much longer FW will be around (and with additional cards with their own drivers, the fun really starts...)
- The S2 is the be far fastest MF-camera (>110MB/s, faster than the D3X with full-quality raw) around and the buffer is quite large by their standards - just use an appropriate (600x are supported) card!
But I guess these arguments aren't welcome here, anyway.
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- ISO-performance is pre-production-stage - it doesn't make sense to argue about that, especially not based on processed JPGs in the net.
- Let's hope it's compatible to USB 3.0, but there is currently no standard available which fits the needs of tethered shooting - we don't know how much longer FW will be around (and with additional cards with their own drivers, the fun really starts...)
- The S2 is the be far fastest MF-camera (>110MB/s, faster than the D3X with full-quality raw) around and the buffer is quite large by their standards - just use an appropriate (600x are supported) card!
But I guess these arguments aren't welcome here, anyway.
Well they are, but one could say exactly the opposite.
- ISO won't change much, perhaps half a stop better but that's it. Leica will NOT perform any miracles here
- I'm nearly 99% sure that it will not be a USB3 port. If it really is I will bow to Leica for it. However I just don't think so.
- Well yes fastest, but it also has the largest files. Sorry but my P65 has smaller raw files..... Perhaps they should really learn more about lossless compressions.
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- The S2 is the be far fastest MF-camera (>110MB/s, faster than the D3X with full-quality raw) around and the buffer is quite large by their standards - just use an appropriate (600x are supported) card!
Not sure I understand what "by their standards" means...as several of today's digital backs have no buffering issues at all, whatever the CF card type is...(and they shoot 50 frames/ minute or more.
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I don't know what's gotten into you people.
It's obvious when you watch the video of the high pressure fashion shoot on the Leica website that this camera delivers the goods.
http://s.leica-camera.com/havanna (http://s.leica-camera.com/havanna)
Look at how the photographer balls his fis after getting the shot.
Look at how the tech guy marvels at the detail in the shots as they pop up on his screen every 20 seconds.
And the proof in the pudding is seeing the model as she laughs while chimping with the photographer.
That only happens when the shot is in the bag and the client is all silly with satisfaction.
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Bingo
It's not a mistake they made..... they can't admit it and advertise the camera as a 'great entry in wealthy amateurs collection' because such a message wouldn't attract the wealthy amateurs
......And let them have it, peace and love.
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Don't know if we are looking at the same video but there is no hectic shooting there just a lot of fiddling...
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Another thing is maybe they don't exploit the full potential the chip gives of multiple readouts (supposedly 4 gates?) are they only using one exit?
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http://s.leica-camera.com/havanna (http://s.leica-camera.com/havanna)
To be serious for a second, you watch that video after reading Michael Reichmann's review, and it almost makes you embarrassed to be in the advertising business. So my apologies to Yair, from one Liar to Another -- we're both questionable in our ethics. We both ought to be sent to the Principal's Office.
Secondly, it underscores the value of an objective, thorough honest review, rather than relying on hype and "reviews" by the people selling the products, especially when you're talking fifty or sixty thousand dollars of investment. (Not that I was, but maybe somewhere, in some country, someone was).
I think for me, what made that Leica video even worse is, when you see one of those Behind The Scenes videos, there is a part of your brain that tells you that you're seeing the truth -- an unvarnished look under the hood of a photo session. When in fact, when you really look at that video, it's about as Hollywood as you can get. Could just as well have been Bruce Willis behind the camera, shooting while the strobes are going off, yet without any type of pocket wizard or sync cord in some of the scenes.
What's also sobering is how a thorough review separates the hype from the truth. In some lab in Germany right now, there's some engineer looking through the camera manual, trying frantically, in vain, to make sure that that USB port can somehow be upgraded to USB 3.0.
So when you think about it, no wonder that the Christian Poulsen guy might not have had any love for Mr. Reichmann -- think of how many dollars were on the line. But the only stroke of luck for Leica is -- no potential customer of the Leica S2 is reading Luminous Landscape, so they won't be presented with the truth. All those Leica customers are reading The Robb Report, Cigar Aficionado, and The Financial Times.
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We really like what we've seen of the Leica S2. We have been working with Leica in showing it to our customers to get their input and pre sell the unit when production is up to speed. Hardware & Software are still in development. Am I happy about the current tethered shot rate, no, but they know that and are very happy to receive input on how to make the system better. Not all pros shot tethered, it will depend on how they want to control the shooting situation. Give it a test when it's released and when they have the software finalized.
They should just throw in 4GB before shipping. Memory is so cheap these days it makes no sense to gamble with a 6-image buffer.
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"When tethered via USB the S2's performance is dramatically reduced. Each frame takes about 15 seconds to transmit to the computer and then a further five seconds till the image appears"
This is the most ridiculous oversight I've seen in a long time, does Leica have any idea what a professional photographer does. Is this a dentists camera after all...
I don't think the Leica S2 was ever designed to be used as a tethered camera - yes I know it works that way but why would someone buy a 35mm sized 37mp body to use on a tripod in a studio? It's a great hand holdable high resolution alternative to a Canon or Nikon. And for that I love it. It's a perfect camera for someone who shoots on location from ladders, boats, helicopters, landscapes, seascapes etc etc. There are plenty of pros that make a living shooting in that environment. I have tried it and think it's a great camera for many of us where other MF cameras would never work as well if at all.
Why are so many of you so negative? if you don't like it, don't buy it.
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I don't think the Leica S2 was ever designed to be used as a tethered camera - yes I know it works that way but why would someone buy a 35mm sized 37mp body to use on a tripod in a studio? It's a great hand holdable high resolution alternative to a Canon or Nikon. And for that I love it. It's a perfect camera for someone who shoots on location from ladders, boats, helicopters, landscapes, seascapes etc etc. There are plenty of pros that make a living shooting in that environment. I have tried it and think it's a great camera for many of us where other MF cameras would never work as well if at all.
Why are so many of you so negative? if you don't like it, don't buy it.
15 + 5 seconds = 20 seconds before the image appears on the screen via tether. That will be a deal breaker for many pros & the rental market.
Denis
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I don't think the Leica S2 was ever designed to be used as a tethered camera - yes I know it works that way but why would someone buy a 35mm sized 37mp body to use on a tripod in a studio? It's a great hand holdable high resolution alternative to a Canon or Nikon. And for that I love it. It's a perfect camera for someone who shoots on location from ladders, boats, helicopters, landscapes, seascapes etc etc. There are plenty of pros that make a living shooting in that environment. I have tried it and think it's a great camera for many of us where other MF cameras would never work as well if at all.
Why are so many of you so negative? if you don't like it, don't buy it.
leica calls the S2 their studio camera for the studio shooter....many here are simply disappointed (including myself) and amazed that something as simple as steady tethered shooting at a industry standard frame rate just isn't there....a usb port for a 40mpix camera smells already pretty bad and 20sec per image just kills it....i would really think that in the big picture of designing a camera and lenses these things would be easy or smaller problems....so the question is what was leica thinking? sure a lot of people will like it, but it is just plain stupid to cut out people who might want it really bad but simply can't use it because tether speed is beyond bad....
i am truly amazed because the m8 which nobody would consider a studio camera is a very solid tethered performer....of course the files are a lot smaller....regardless....sinar, phase, hass, leaf...they all have much, much faster tethered speed....the biggest market for these backs still requires it...
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I don't think the Leica S2 was ever designed to be used as a tethered camera - yes I know it works that way but why would someone buy a 35mm sized 37mp body to use on a tripod in a studio? It's a great hand holdable high resolution alternative to a Canon or Nikon. And for that I love it. It's a perfect camera for someone who shoots on location from ladders, boats, helicopters, landscapes, seascapes etc etc. There are plenty of pros that make a living shooting in that environment. I have tried it and think it's a great camera for many of us where other MF cameras would never work as well if at all.
Why are so many of you so negative? if you don't like it, don't buy it.
Tethering poll (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=39676)
18 out of 28 voters tend to tether their DSLR both in studio and on location...at least on this board nearly 2/3 of DSLR shooters like to use their cameras tethered...
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I don't think the Leica S2 was ever designed to be used as a tethered camera - yes I know it works that way but why would someone buy a 35mm sized 37mp body to use on a tripod in a studio? It's a great hand holdable high resolution alternative to a Canon or Nikon. And for that I love it. It's a perfect camera for someone who shoots on location from ladders, boats, helicopters, landscapes, seascapes etc etc. There are plenty of pros that make a living shooting in that environment. I have tried it and think it's a great camera for many of us where other MF cameras would never work as well if at all.
Why are so many of you so negative? if you don't like it, don't buy it.
here here.
yet again everyone seems to think their way of working is the way that everyone works.
it isn't - lots of location people shoot 100% untethered.
not everyone is doing fashion/product shoots with Tech assistant on their elbow.
however I will say that I think Leica cutting the ties with Phase was not the smartest move.
yes I read about the registration info thing, but they would have had bullet proof tethering, world leader raw processor, and access to compressed raw file codecs that would have reduced their file sizes dramatically.
they fumbled the ball on this one, and the S2 will suffer due to it.
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I could see how the tethering issue could happen. Leica has no headspace for the studio (or roll-your-own-studio location shoot) world and their only DSLR-esque body to date has been the sghort-lived, low-production DMR, which if IIRC (and I could be wrong) had no tethering ability. I shot with one very briefly but can't recall about tethering.
Now, that said, some simple benchmarking and some of that supposed in-depth input from studio/fashion shooters (or a latte at any decent studio) during the design of the system would have nailed that down in a hurry. "..yup, make sure it's FW800, large buffer and quick tethered preview.." it's like saying it should have a hand strap - pretty well a given.
Shame, as they could have dumped a huge buffer in the beast (RAM is dirt cheap), tweaked some nice software and made the buffer and tethering speed a cheap-to-implement but very notable selling point vs the competition. But instead, they cripple it AND make you use a (I assume) spendy and what will be hard to find custom cable that can lock on to the camera - thus sending it flying with the first errant foot. I guess at that point, finding a replacement cable won't be your biggest concern anyway. Tethering isn't for everyone as was said, but you need to have that ability, in a decent form, onboard. It's a cheap way to avoid excluding LOTs of potential customers
All that being what it is, the S2 may be publicly targeted at the pro studio/fashion market, but as others have said, that's NOT where the VAST bulk of the unit's initial sales will come from. The trick will be what will happen after that initial bubble of sales to die-hard Leicaphiles and the odd bleeding-edge user. If cash is slow to come in, the product line growth might slow which will slow sales even more as folks get nervous about orphaning, and round and round we go.
The S2 is a nice idea, looks pretty good but has some notable shortcomings. However, to be fair, it is the firm's first MFDB body and could be refined handily in an S3, but the product line, Leica's rep in that target market and the company itself need to make it to an S3 stage to be able to improve upon the concept.
As for the "if you don't want it, don't buy it ..." comments, a big issue that raises hackles is the firm and it's die-hard fan's praising the thing (well prior to release let alone afterwards), like Leica's first step into MFDB land and back into DSLRs in general was the panacea to everyone's issues with MFDBs/high-end SLRs or that it somehow 're-defines' photography. It's a interesting tweener body concept that has exploited some past lessons of other manufactures, but neglected to exploit some it should have. It looks great, has Nth percentile glass and from all accounts handles (note handles, not necessarily performs) well.
If some folks like it enough to buy, great, if many (who could afford to) don't, Leica shouldn't have any illusions as to why not. The S2 is a good first start. Lets see where (or IF) it goes from here.
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I could see how the tethering issue could happen. Leica has no headspace for the studio (or roll-your-own-studio location shoot) world and their only DSLR-esque body to date has been the sghort-lived, low-production DMR, which if IIRC (and I could be wrong) had no tethering ability. I shot with one very briefly but can't recall about tethering.
Now, that said, some simple benchmarking and some of that supposed in-depth input from studio/fashion shooters (or a latte at any decent studio) during the design of the system would have nailed that down in a hurry. "..yup, make sure it's FW800, large buffer and quick tethered preview.." it's like saying it should have a hand strap - pretty well a given.
Shame, as they could have dumped a huge buffer in the beast (RAM is dirt cheap), tweaked some nice software and made the buffer and tethering speed a cheap-to-implement but very notable selling point vs the competition. But instead, they cripple it AND make you use a (I assume) spendy and what will be hard to find custom cable that can lock on to the camera - thus sending it flying with the first errant foot. I guess at that point, finding a replacement cable won't be your biggest concern anyway. Tethering isn't for everyone as was said, but you need to have that ability, in a decent form, onboard. It's a cheap way to avoid excluding LOTs of potential customers
All that being what it is, the S2 may be publicly targeted at the pro studio/fashion market, but as others have said, that's NOT where the VAST bulk of the unit's initial sales will come from. The trick will be what will happen after that initial bubble of sales to die-hard Leicaphiles and the odd bleeding-edge user. If cash is slow to come in, the product line growth might slow which will slow sales even more as folks get nervous about orphaning, and round and round we go.
The S2 is a nice idea, looks pretty good but has some notable shortcomings. However, to be fair, it is the firm's first MFDB body and could be refined handily in an S3, but the product line, Leica's rep in that target market and the company itself need to make it to an S3 stage to be able to improve upon the concept.
As for the "if you don't want it, don't buy it ..." comments, a big issue that raises hackles is the firm and it's die-hard fan's praising the thing (well prior to release let alone afterwards), like Leica's first step into MFDB land and back into DSLRs in general was the panacea to everyone's issues with MFDBs/high-end SLRs or that it somehow 're-defines' photography. It's a interesting tweener body concept that has exploited some past lessons of other manufactures, but neglected to exploit some it should have. It looks great, has Nth percentile glass and from all accounts handles (note handles, not necessarily performs) well.
If some folks like it enough to buy, great, if many (who could afford to) don't, Leica shouldn't have any illusions as to why not. The S2 is a good first start. Lets see where (or IF) it goes from here.
This is about the most succinct comment on the S2 to date.
I am completely bemused by leica's omission of a large buffer, and high(er) speed tethering. Short of a huge design oversight, there can be no logical reason for the omission. I know people work in lots of different ways, but if you're going to offer tethering, getting it right can't be so much more expensive than getting it wrong. However, getting it wrong must shut out at least 30% of professional buyers who had their eye on the S2 system.
I'm sure Leica will get it sorted in the future, but it will massively reduce the resale value of the first batch of S2s (unless they can be upgrade for free).
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I have been thinking some more about this, and while I hope that Leica adds more RAM to make the buffer larger than 6 images, I think that the tethering issue ought to be solvable. The theoretical max. throughput of Firewire 400 and USB 2.0 are within 10% of each other... There is some protocol overhead in USB, but there should be no reason for Leica not to be able to pull within 20% of the performance of the P40+ setup. It is just a question of tuning the firmware in the camera and the software on the computer. I guess they need to just get out there and hire two of the top programmers in the field at whatever cost, and get it done.
If they can do this, if they fix the 6-image buffer (for example by giving 2:1 compression), then the USB port starts to look like a hidden benefit, if USB 3 can be supported. Apple seems to add less and less FW to their computers these days, and it is hard to find a decent computer from anyone else with FW. I am a big FW fan, but I have the creeping feeling that the party is almost over. Cheap wins, yet again.
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here here.
yet again everyone seems to think their way of working is the way that everyone works.
it isn't - lots of location people shoot 100% untethered.
not everyone is doing fashion/product shoots with Tech assistant on their elbow.
however I will say that I think Leica cutting the ties with Phase was not the smartest move.
yes I read about the registration info thing, but they would have had bullet proof tethering, world leader raw processor, and access to compressed raw file codecs that would have reduced their file sizes dramatically.
they fumbled the ball on this one, and the S2 will suffer due to it.
the good thing with a faster shooting rate is that it will work untethered too, the bad thing on a slow rate is that it wont work tethered.
can u see the difference ?
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The lesson to Leica, in all this, should be to keep your cards close to your chest. Here they are, already late in shipping, supposedly due to "production issues", and they're still working out gaping holes in the system? But the key thing is: They're doing it publicly, in full view of the buying public.
There is a reason that a retail store puts up that brown kraft paper over the windows as they're prepping their stores -- they don't want the public to see the making of the sausage, until Grand Opening Day. Maybe they've learned a lesson in this; it certainly has blown up in their face.
And the ironic thing is: They fly to Havana, produce an expensive video, showing a fake fashion shoot, probably with a non-working camera, and they show the guy shooting to the computer, and yet, the most glaring shortcoming of the system is the very thing they feature in the video.
They'd have been much better off flying to Africa, on some Range Rover safari, and shown a bunch of handsome men and women shooting to card, with a bunch of lions and tigers in the background, at sunset, with a computer nowhere in sight.
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after i listened the announcement of the s2 1,5 years ago i immediately thought that i cant believe that leica will do it right,- if ever this camera will see the market.
now its here, and big shortcomings with it. i didnt expected anything better after this strange DMR system ( and that there did not came a DMR2 ) and after the M8 with its glorious thin ir glass. making such deep design mistakes in their digital department i couldnt see how leica would be able and how it could have the knowhow to make a 100% working new digital concept. lets see how this story will go on now and, in the worst but most likely case, how it will end.
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after i listened the announcement of the s2 1,5 years ago i immediately thought that i cant believe that leica will do it right,- if ever this camera will see the market.
now its here, and big shortcomings with it. i didnt expected anything better after this strange DMR system ( and that there did not came a DMR2 ) and after the M9 with its glorious thin ir glass. making such deep design mistakes in their digital department i couldnt see how leica would be able and how it could have the knowhow to make a 100% working new digital concept. lets see how this story will go on now and, in the worst but most likely case, how it will end.
seems that leica caters mostly to taiwanese and japanese collectors. since they do not unpack their cameras there is no problem with thethering performance.
on a more serious note, leica messed up the M8, didn't even get it right with the M8.2, released a suboptimal M9 in a hurry (which is still an interesting camera
but far from what it should and could have been) and now they do everything possibly wrong with the S2...except the lenses. this shows that leica is mainly an
optics company with little understanding of digital photography. the S2 was supposed to be their pathway into digital, but the price-performance ratio is subpar.
the S3 will be better for another 20.000.-Euros (of course without upgrade path) but....
good that phase and hasselblad deliver.
peter
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i wonder why they just don't offer leica R lenses in EF mount as zeiss ZE...
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i wonder why they just don't offer leica R lenses in EF mount as zeiss ZE...
Because they are stupid in some ways ^^
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after i listened the announcement of the s2 1,5 years ago i immediately thought that i cant believe that leica will do it right,- if ever this camera will see the market.
That is a very European statement.... i.e. if somebody develops something new, the first thing (we) Europeans do, is to find reasons why it can't work.
Most often the conclusion then is "let's not get even started".
Kudos to Leica to not fall into this trap.
The US mentality is to not look left or right, just do it, since we are in the US, it gotta be the best and the biggest. After a while, reality catches up with the development. But the product has been developed then, and there is a chance that improvements iron out initial shortcomings.
Regarding Firewire: Its basically dead, since Apple moves away from it.
I think Carsten had a point by saying that a bigger buffer, file compression and firmware improvements can help with tethering speed.
And: Hasn't the poll here shown that 1/3 of photogs don't insist on tethering?
If somebody builds a new car, targeting it to 1/3 of the driver population is not bad.
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In a nutshell: I am (not?) surprised how negatively people react. Particularly on a fixable IT-type issue. Folks here seem to behave like computer freaks. Any photographic features of the camera, like handling, the "process" of shooting with it, lenses, shutter options seems to be irrelevant. I find that a bit surprising.
Peter
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In a nutshell: I am (not?) surprised how negatively people react. Particularly on a fixable IT-type issue. Folks here seem to behave like computer freaks. Any photographic features of the camera, like handling, the "process" of shooting with it, lenses, shutter options seems to be irrelevant. I find that a bit surprising.
When a 8000 US$ D3x gets shot down in flames because of its price although it has delivered perfectly on all its promises (and then more), don't you think it is normal that a 23.000 US$ offering generates criticism when it gets it wrong in important areas like buffer depth, thethered shooting or cold weather battery life?
What does that have to do with European vs US mind sets?
I totally agree with you that the issues that have been reported will not impact all users of the S2, and that the system has great potential mostly in terms of image look thanks to the lenses, but this should not prevent issues from being pointed out.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Hi,
Offering some kind of conversion of R-lenses to CaNikon would have been nice R-customers once R-line was put down.
Best regards
Erik
Because they are stupid in some ways ^^
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Hi,
Offering some kind of conversion of R-lenses to CaNikon would have been nice R-customers once R-line was put down.
Already available for Nikon through 3rd party:
http://www.leitax.com/leica-lens-for-nikon-cameras.html (http://www.leitax.com/leica-lens-for-nikon-cameras.html)
I have already bought one, I am just missing the Leica lens.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Already available for Nikon through 3rd party:
http://www.leitax.com/leica-lens-for-nikon-cameras.html (http://www.leitax.com/leica-lens-for-nikon-cameras.html)
I have already bought one, I am just missing the Leica lens.
Cheers,
Bernard
Bernard
I wrote to Leitz once asking whether they would ever make their lenses availlable in mounts for third party cameras as it would hugely raise their market share for lenses. Their response was to ignore the question and inform me that they made excellent slr cameras and suggested I consider them... apart from being no reply at all, it suggests that the writer knows nothng about the market about which he is asking the question; a double insult. Asking the original question is not an insult - it is an offer to purchase equipment that would not have otherwise been bought or even considered.
Strange people.
Rob C
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Already available for Nikon through 3rd party:
http://www.leitax.com/leica-lens-for-nikon-cameras.html (http://www.leitax.com/leica-lens-for-nikon-cameras.html)
I have already bought one, I am just missing the Leica lens.
Cheers,
Bernard
Same shop also has them for Pentax, Sigma, Sony (=Konica/Minolta A) and Canon.
I've never used them, but seen lots of positive reports on quality of the replacement mount and the job is fully reversible (if you ever find an R-body you would like to re-use your modified lens on)
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i'm using contax zeiss lens on canon also... but lenses like ZE zeiss have a chip in it for focus confirmation...
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That is a very European statement.... i.e. if somebody develops something new, the first thing (we) Europeans do, is to find reasons why it can't work.
Most often the conclusion then is "let's not get even started".
Kudos to Leica to not fall into this trap.
The US mentality is to not look left or right, just do it, since we are in the US, it gotta be the best and the biggest. After a while, reality catches up with the development. But the product has been developed then, and there is a chance that improvements iron out initial shortcomings.
Regarding Firewire: Its basically dead, since Apple moves away from it.
I think Carsten had a point by saying that a bigger buffer, file compression and firmware improvements can help with tethering speed.
And: Hasn't the poll here shown that 1/3 of photogs don't insist on tethering?
If somebody builds a new car, targeting it to 1/3 of the driver population is not bad.
--
In a nutshell: I am (not?) surprised how negatively people react. Particularly on a fixable IT-type issue. Folks here seem to behave like computer freaks. Any photographic features of the camera, like handling, the "process" of shooting with it, lenses, shutter options seems to be irrelevant. I find that a bit surprising.
Peter
you should not quote me and leave out the context of what i wrote.
i dont think its very european to have doubts in its competence if a company has released formerly several products with deep design mistakes, and this is what i wrote. i am not in general sceptical to new developements, at contrary. so pls. dont cut out single sentences and dont copy the rest which shows what i expressed:
i wrote:
"after i listened the announcement of the s2 1,5 years ago i immediately thought that i cant believe that leica will do it right,- if ever this camera will see the market.
now its here, and big shortcomings with it. i didnt expected anything better after this strange DMR system ( and that there did not came a DMR2 ) and after the M8 with its glorious thin ir glass. making such deep design mistakes in their digital department i couldnt see how leica would be able and how it could have the knowhow to make a 100% working new digital concept."
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Hi,
Yes, I'm aware of that. What I essentially ment is that Leica it self should have made some effort in enabling the use of their R-lenses with Nikon or canon with as much functionality kept as possible. Folks have invested in that platform in good faith and than Leica just laid down the R-seies.
Best regards
Erik
Already available for Nikon through 3rd party:
http://www.leitax.com/leica-lens-for-nikon-cameras.html (http://www.leitax.com/leica-lens-for-nikon-cameras.html)
I have already bought one, I am just missing the Leica lens.
Cheers,
Bernard
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In such a small and demanding (!) market, crossing out 1/3rd of potential customers in the very beginning (or should I say before it) is a HUGE mistake and such an act doesn't fall into 'it's still not that bad' category from marketing point of view. It's a suicide. no, it WOULD be a suicide, because it's not their target. The target is a wealthy mid-aged european / asian guy who likes shiny logos on their toys.
I wouldn't be too suprpised if the sample shots from Havana were taken with a MKII
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The target is a wealthy mid-aged european / asian guy who likes shiny logos on their toys.
Leica does extensive Market Research, to determine the most discriminating clients. The S2 was based on this man:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2SSZA0CjdQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2SSZA0CjdQ)
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Perhaps Leica should send everyone in this thread their next model before release as it
seems that the testers didn't really do their job.
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i think you guys are wrong.
leica did the best they could do, unfortunately they couldnt do better and this is the problem.
leica cant survive with collectors and hobbyists with this S system and its not their plan too. even the r system is not from much interest by collectors, the s not at all. it always was the M which was holding leicas head over the water. and the S is not a camera, where all developement costs are since 45 years written of. but at all it is just another example of a company which is not up to the task of our times and came out with gear which isnt thought enough and finished enough.
not different to the other mf companies which already went belly up or are on the way to do that.
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Leica does extensive Market Research, to determine the most discriminating clients. The S2 was based on this man:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2SSZA0CjdQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2SSZA0CjdQ)
Oh noes! They totally mind-washed me with that commercial during last NBA playoffs
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leica calls the S2 their studio camera for the studio shooter....many here are simply disappointed (including myself) and amazed that something as simple as steady tethered shooting at a industry standard frame rate just isn't there....a usb port for a 40mpix camera smells already pretty bad and 20sec per image just kills it....i would really think that in the big picture of designing a camera and lenses these things would be easy or smaller problems....so the question is what was leica thinking? sure a lot of people will like it, but it is just plain stupid to cut out people who might want it really bad but simply can't use it because tether speed is beyond bad....
i am truly amazed because the m8 which nobody would consider a studio camera is a very solid tethered performer....of course the files are a lot smaller....regardless....sinar, phase, hass, leaf...they all have much, much faster tethered speed....the biggest market for these backs still requires it...
I think Leica is working on support for the last DNG specification and (I suppose) lossless compression. USB is a more or less passive data highway (FW has built in controllers), so some kind of update to 3.0 specifications should be possible. Anyway, Apple itself is preparing the adoption of USB3 and eSATA for high speed communication ports in future Macs. They don't support chains of devices or target mode, but Apple is filling patents for bringing these "FW features" to USB3 and eSATA. Leica made a decision based on long term support. FW may disappear sooner than expected by many.
http://www.faq-mac.com/noticias/38313/appl...lementacion-usb (http://www.faq-mac.com/noticias/38313/apple-podria-dar-giro-implementacion-usb)
http://www.applesfera.com/apple/una-nueva-...-interfaz-esata (http://www.applesfera.com/apple/una-nueva-patente-muestra-la-funcionalidad-target-mode-con-la-interfaz-esata)
(Sorry, it is in Spanish, but you can find links to the English-written sources)
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I have been thinking some more about this, and while I hope that Leica adds more RAM to make the buffer larger than 6 images, I think that the tethering issue ought to be solvable. The theoretical max. throughput of Firewire 400 and USB 2.0 are within 10% of each other... There is some protocol overhead in USB, but there should be no reason for Leica not to be able to pull within 20% of the performance of the P40+ setup. It is just a question of tuning the firmware in the camera and the software on the computer. I guess they need to just get out there and hire two of the top programmers in the field at whatever cost, and get it done.
If they can do this, if they fix the 6-image buffer (for example by giving 2:1 compression), then the USB port starts to look like a hidden benefit, if USB 3 can be supported. Apple seems to add less and less FW to their computers these days, and it is hard to find a decent computer from anyone else with FW. I am a big FW fan, but I have the creeping feeling that the party is almost over. Cheap wins, yet again.
I agree.
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Because they are stupid in some ways ^^
That is not the reason.
I think japanese companies don't give access to their patents to Leica for this. Leica asked Canon years ago and the answer was "no".
Why Zeiss has access to the EOS mount? Just because the manufacturer is Cosina, a japanese company. They got the key, not Zeiss.
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post deleted
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Camera companies need to seriously do as photographers ask for in specs not just listen and pick and choose. There are plenty of $1-3K cameras with better buffers and tethering, cameras that may not even be used all that much for their buffer or better tethering. Leica needs to wake up. Buying a camera on looks and label alone went out in 2008. It's a new world.
Oh yeh, this is a 160-320 ISO camera. They should just cap it off there. 1250 ISO should never be an option. The original Canon 1Ds had better 1250. That was in 2002.
I think one very large concept that Leica doesn't demonstrate it understands is that digital cameras are computers, not just cameras. Leica was and is a camera company. If they want to be a digital camera company then churn out product better and faster, with sizable improvements to their own products but also to competitors' products.
+1 ! Thank you for this post. This is something I've been thinking for decades, not doing it they ended put their company and all the humans being involved in a high risk. A lot of people (and posters) still think that we (the users) should not critized legendary brands like Leica because of the condesending aspect, I disagree with this position because actualy, too many decisions made by "super wised executives" (extremely well paid) are incoherent and dangerous.
I do not see why the S2 would not have an interchangeable sensor unit with the same design, according to the target. Ricoh did it in a compact cam (but did it badly). This is totaly incoherent, absolutely stupid and the consequences will not last very long to emerge, even if we like to think that Leica knows what their doing...
As I work in advertising, I can tell you that we see (in the last 10 years) emerging a new generation of young, agresive, incompetent and condesendant executives, specialy in the marketing area, that have power and use it pretty badly. When I read in some posts that "Leica can't be that stupid" or "they would not made such mistakes because they know better than us what they are doing"...I want to answer: "ah yes?...lets see in 5 years, if they are still here because of their wised decisions". Look what they have done with ( and for ) their R users, wich would have been a natural choice instead of puting themselves in an imperfect system that is not likely to be competitive in this segment. Now, Nikon and Canon users have all these R lenses for their gear...
Oh, and by the way, the international crisis we just had...how could it be? if economy is in hand of super competent people who knows what their doing and won't be so stupid.
And apart of the performance problem
Can someone tells me what is the selling point (the strength) of a camera that will be obsolete in a few years while in other systems you just have to upgrade the back? Or this jewel is actually targeting the very rich photographer who is looking for a gift for himself to commemorate his 40 anniversary of professional career?!?...The only possible exit I see for this model will be a tempting price wich I doubt will happen.
Is the fact that their Raw size is bigger an indication that it capture more data? Is the buffer speed coherent with the camera design and pro needs?
I agree with GWHITF post that S2 is NOT targeting the pro but the very wealthy amateurs who are looking for a kind of "porshe design" that would suit with their Porshe cars. Not targeting either the R users who have moved to other brands.
It is sad, but it is true.
Fred.
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I have no dog in this fight and perhaps this has been noted before but Chasseur d'Images, the French photographic magazine, has a fairly comprehensive test of the S2.
They did a detailed comparison of test images against the D3x. Image quality looked good. A significant jump in detail from the D3x. More noise at higher ISOs but manageable.
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If anyone has the gall to introduce an ultra expensive camera, without even a basic lens line up nor bother to come up with a halfway decent dedicated raw converter, and call it a pro product, its Leica. It seems to me that as long as there's a red dot, its holy.
The die hard Leica fan must be a different animal. The M8 fiasco should have killed them outright; they sold a faulty product which they tried to coverup and lie about, at a very high prices. Instead what did they do when the proverbial $hit hit the fan? Absolutely nothing! They convinced the groupies to spend more money for overpriced filters and stick them on top of their very expensive glass and these people bought into it. WTF, I rest my case...
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Hi,
I'd suggest you may be wrong on the raw converter issue, we don't need more raw converters we need a couple of good ones. The lens line may broaden with time.
I'm not sure of how the S2 fits in the market. The MF market seems to be limited and dominated by Hasselblad and Phase One. The professional/well-heeled amateur market can probably accept the prices Leica has, if the system lives up to expectations.
Leica can also probably improve the camera and correct some issues with firmware upgrades.
Best regards
Erik
If anyone has the gall to introduce an ultra expensive camera, without even a basic lens line up nor bother to come up with a halfway decent dedicated raw converter, and call it a pro product, its Leica. It seems to me that as long as there's a red dot, its holy.
The die hard Leica fan must be a different animal. The M8 fiasco should have killed them outright; they sold a faulty product which they tried to coverup and lie about, at a very high prices. Instead what did they do when the proverbial $hit hit the fan? Absolutely nothing! They convinced the groupies to spend more money for overpriced filters and stick them on top of their very expensive glass and these people bought into it. WTF, I rest my case...
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Hi,
I'd suggest you may be wrong on the raw converter issue, we don't need more raw converters we need a couple of good ones. The lens line may broaden with time.
I'm not sure of how the S2 fits in the market. The MF market seems to be limited and dominated by Hasselblad and Phase One. The professional/well headed amateur market can probably accept the prices Leica has, if the system lives up to expectations.
Leica can also probably improve the camera and correct some issues with firmware upgrades.
Best regards
Erik
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/well-heeled (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/well-heeled)
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Thanks!
Slip of toungue/brain/fingers!
Best regards
Erik
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/well-heeled (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/well-heeled)
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If anyone has the gall to introduce an ultra expensive camera, without even a basic lens line up nor bother to come up with a halfway decent dedicated raw converter, and call it a pro product, its Leica. It seems to me that as long as there's a red dot, its holy.
The die hard Leica fan must be a different animal. The M8 fiasco should have killed them outright; they sold a faulty product which they tried to coverup and lie about, at a very high prices. Instead what did they do when the proverbial $hit hit the fan? Absolutely nothing! They convinced the groupies to spend more money for overpriced filters and stick them on top of their very expensive glass and these people bought into it. WTF, I rest my case...
I have never figured out why people have this almost racist attitude to Leica and it's users. I have never owned a Leica myself. I can see why other people would buy it, RF, small, quality lenses, No AA, quality results, weighs little and quiet. As for the IR issue, Leica quickly admitted the fault and worked the best solution they could. Try getting Canon to admit to a fault, they had my 1DsmkIII back 3 times, every photographer I know that has one had the same fault and sent them back to get them fixed, yet talk to someone at Canon about your concerns and always the reply was "never heard of that before". So Canon sold me a camera that couldn't do infinity, crucial for my work and a basic prerequisite for any camera I reckon. It's sort of fixed, but should go back as all my lenses are microadjusted roughly by the same amount. If all I had to do was screw a filter on my lens to fix it, tat would of been easier and quicker than sending the camera off 3 times (One was for a new shutter, about 20,000 clicks, 5000 less than my smkII made).
If I have a criticism of Leica it's that they always technology wise appear to be one step behind others.
Kevin.
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I have never figured out why people have this almost racist attitude to Leica and it's users. I have never owned a Leica myself. I can see why other people would buy it, RF, small, quality lenses, No AA, quality results, weighs little and quiet. As for the IR issue, Leica quickly admitted the fault and worked the best solution they could. Try getting Canon to admit to a fault, they had my 1DsmkIII back 3 times, every photographer I know that has one had the same fault and sent them back to get them fixed, yet talk to someone at Canon about your concerns and always the reply was "never heard of that before". So Canon sold me a camera that couldn't do infinity, crucial for my work and a basic prerequisite for any camera I reckon. It's sort of fixed, but should go back as all my lenses are microadjusted roughly by the same amount. If all I had to do was screw a filter on my lens to fix it, tat would of been easier and quicker than sending the camera off 3 times (One was for a new shutter, about 20,000 clicks, 5000 less than my smkII made).
If I have a criticism of Leica it's that they always technology wise appear to be one step behind others.
Kevin.
Kevin,
I do not think there is any kind of racism towards Leica. Most users, me included, have a great respect for such a lengendary brand. But I think that a lot of us and also potential buyers are feeling that something goes wrong in the red circle house.
The M8 was a problematic camera, and Leica tried to fix it, it is true. One big mistake is one thing and everybody has forgiven with the very impresive M9, but it seems that they haven't really learned from it.
In your example with Canon, if I understand well, this was a quality control problem, not a conceptional mistake. One think is a bad exemplary, another is an immature design. They will probably fix most of the problems in the future, but what they have done so far is put their image at risk and gave a bad taste to the pros. When you talk about a camera in this price, targeting the high end professional, you can not allowed yourself to make such basics imperfections.
If I write something wrong here in the forum, the consecuences are zero. When Leica put an imperfect product on the market, it is all an industry and human beings who are putten at risk.
Also, the S2 project was a very courageous but a very risky one. The natural way would have been, according to me, a R9 digital successor, FF in the spirit of the D3. They have choosen another path, more extreme but much more dangerous. (now Hasselblad is coming with cutted prices, Red is on the corner etc...) So mistakes are even less tolerated, they had to proove that their system is really competitive and failed so far for mistakes that could have been avoided if a better care and listening would have been done.
So there is this impression that they allowed themselves these sort of imprecisions just because they have the best reputation...mmm, very dangerous actitude.
My feeling, and I may be badly informed, is that they have the best fine engineers and "savoir faire" of photographic industry but there is serious problem in other departments.
Their commemorations special editions tell a lot about what kind of mentality has emerged recently from their marketing department.
Fred.
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Hi,
I'd suggest you may be wrong on the raw converter issue, we don't need more raw converters we need a couple of good ones.
Hi Erik,
I wish it was so, I have products from Nikon, Fuji, Kodak, Leaf and Phase and in every case the dedicated converters give better results than my universal software, ie PS, LR, SP, RC, and LZ. The differences aren't subtle either, I get superior results with the dedicated software everywhere; noise, dr, tonal range, color, moire and even sharpening. I would love to do everything with one or two pieces of software, but the nature of the beast doesn't allow it yet.
The lens line may broaden with time.
I'm sure that it will and maybe at that time I'll look at the S2 seriously again, of course if its chip isn't out dated by then...Price is also an issue, one can get great deals in higher spec'd products from others today, how the do you think the market will look like by the time they have a competitive lens line up?
I'm not sure of how the S2 fits in the market. The MF market seems to be limited and dominated by Hasselblad and Phase One. The professional/well-heeled amateur market can probably accept the prices Leica has, if the system lives up to expectations.
Leica can also probably improve the camera and correct some issues with firmware upgrades.
MF isn't just for the pro sector, there are plenty of serious amateurs out there shooting MF too. IMO the S2 could have fit very nicely in the market if Leica had put out a complete system. I was in line to buy one but I can't take them as a serious player at this point, specially when I see what Phase and Hasselblad are offering. Maybe they'll get their act together for the S3.
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Kevin,
In your example with Canon, if I understand well, this was a quality control problem, not a conceptional mistake. One think is a bad exemplary, another is an immature design. They will probably fix most of the problems in the future, but what they have done so far is put their image at risk and gave a bad taste to the pros. When you talk about a camera in this price, targeting the high end professional, you can not allowed yourself to make such basics imperfections.
Fred.
Fred,
No there are some very anti Leica people about, all to ready to pick up on anything that does not fit in with their way of working and thinking. The M8 had problems, mainly the IR fiasco and somethings it did not do as well as other cameras, but the Leica had plus points that no other camera had or has.
No design issue, every single professional photographer I know had the same problem.
And what basic flaw does the S2 have, have I missed something?
Kevin.
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I have never figured out why people have this almost racist attitude to Leica and it's users. I have never owned a Leica myself. I can see why other people would buy it, RF, small, quality lenses, No AA, quality results, weighs little and quiet. As for the IR issue, Leica quickly admitted the fault and worked the best solution they could. Try getting Canon to admit to a fault, they had my 1DsmkIII back 3 times, every photographer I know that has one had the same fault and sent them back to get them fixed, yet talk to someone at Canon about your concerns and always the reply was "never heard of that before". So Canon sold me a camera that couldn't do infinity, crucial for my work and a basic prerequisite for any camera I reckon. It's sort of fixed, but should go back as all my lenses are microadjusted roughly by the same amount. If all I had to do was screw a filter on my lens to fix it, tat would of been easier and quicker than sending the camera off 3 times (One was for a new shutter, about 20,000 clicks, 5000 less than my smkII made).
If I have a criticism of Leica it's that they always technology wise appear to be one step behind others.
Kevin.
Nothing racist about it Kevin, that's how things are in Leica land. Would you have kept your Canon if they came out and said to you that your mk3 was designed with a major flaw, it will never focus properly but you'd be able to get away with it if you spend another $200 each for a bunch filters to stick in front of your 85/1.2, TSE 17mm, 300/2.8 or any other expensive lens that you own, would you go along with it? How many high end Canon users do you think would say fine and carry on?
Flash forward to 2010, a brand new NICHE product with a 20k+ price tag just for a digital body that's becoming obsolete as we speak. Better still, no lenses to shoot with, just a promise of something in the future, from a company that never kept a deadline, and is horribly stretched thin both physically and financially. Would any serious photographer but a devoted Leica fan go for this? Lets not forget the software issue, they're banking on some future release by Adobe of something, but for now its all a bunch of band aids, compromises and promises. We don't even know how far is Adobe willing to customize their software for Leica. Would any serious photographers stick by another company if they unloaded this BS into the market. Yet here we are still talking about the S2, people writing reviews about it and even defending it when we would have laughed our heads off and dismissed it outright if it wasn't Leica...
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Fred,
No there are some very anti Leica people about, all to ready to pick up on anything that does not fit in with their way of working and thinking. The M8 had problems, mainly the IR fiasco and somethings it did not do as well as other cameras, but the Leica had plus points that no other camera had or has.
No design issue, every single professional photographer I know had the same problem.
And what basic flaw does the S2 have, have I missed something?
Kevin.
Kevin,
I would like sincerely to see Leica into the battle in the next years. That would be a lot better for all of us if such a brand with this level of savoir-faire and approach will survive and provide top level tools. I wish they do it.
But DDK's posts, sorry if I may name a poster, resumed my feeling about the S.
The sensor body in a few years will be obsolete, and there is nothing you can do but buy another one again. They have not taken into consideration the video capability, wich would have suit very well the body design, and that would have been a great sale argument.
I know here in Spain, all life Leica R users that had to swich to Canon because they realised that their brand abandonned the R serie to put itself into a format where they first need to give confidence to potential buyers. (and that not many R users are willing to adopt because of its price and imposibility to use their expensive optics they have been invested on for many years). This is where they failed so far to me: users first impressions=This has problems, it is not matured. Of course, they will, like with the M8, fix most if not all the issues, but you know that impressions, feeling have a lot of power.
I think that they had a market for, first R9 succesor, and then going further with something bigger later, but they've done a huge step and it looks that this jacket is a bit big.
Hope I'm wrong and we will see Leica as a serious and settled player in the future.
Regards,
Fred.
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Nothing prevents Leica from designing the S2 to be factory-upgradable to a new sensor - send it in, and get a new hi-rez or hi-iso or CMOS chip, and maybe LiveView electronics drop-shiipped back home for $10K? Maybe get the shutter and mirrorbox swapped too, and a new battery thrown in? Also, this would be a steady revenue stream which would bypass the dealers, just like Microsoft got - dealers sell an S2 once, Leica gets 2 or 3 upgrades out of it because used cameras can be upgraded too ...
Edmund
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Nothing racist about it Kevin, that's how things are in Leica land. Would you have kept your Canon if they came out and said to you that your mk3 was designed with a major flaw, it will never focus properly but you'd be able to get away with it if you spend another $200 each for a bunch filters to stick in front of your 85/1.2, TSE 17mm, 300/2.8 or any other expensive lens that you own, would you go along with it? How many high end Canon users do you think would say fine and carry on?
Flash forward to 2010, a brand new NICHE product with a 20k+ price tag just for a digital body that's becoming obsolete as we speak. Better still, no lenses to shoot with, just a promise of something in the future, from a company that never kept a deadline, and is horribly stretched thin both physically and financially. Would any serious photographer but a devoted Leica fan go for this? Lets not forget the software issue, they're banking on some future release by Adobe of something, but for now its all a bunch of band aids, compromises and promises. We don't even know how far is Adobe willing to customize their software for Leica. Would any serious photographers stick by another company if they unloaded this BS into the market. Yet here we are still talking about the S2, people writing reviews about it and even defending it when we would have laughed our heads off and dismissed it outright if it wasn't Leica...
I was not specifically talking about the S as it was the M you mentioned. To be honest as I don't own or plan to own any Leica non of it is my problem. It's an endless expensive merry-go-round where ever you place your bet. Sometime I just wish digital would go away altogether.
Kevin.
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Nothing racist about it Kevin, that's how things are in Leica land. Would you have kept your Canon if they came out and said to you that your mk3 was designed with a major flaw, it will never focus properly but you'd be able to get away with it if you spend another $200 each for a bunch filters to stick in front of your 85/1.2, TSE 17mm, 300/2.8 or any other expensive lens that you own, would you go along with it? How many high end Canon users do you think would say fine and carry on?
Flash forward to 2010, a brand new NICHE product with a 20k+ price tag just for a digital body that's becoming obsolete as we speak. Better still, no lenses to shoot with, just a promise of something in the future, from a company that never kept a deadline, and is horribly stretched thin both physically and financially. Would any serious photographer but a devoted Leica fan go for this? Lets not forget the software issue, they're banking on some future release by Adobe of something, but for now its all a bunch of band aids, compromises and promises. We don't even know how far is Adobe willing to customize their software for Leica. Would any serious photographers stick by another company if they unloaded this BS into the market. Yet here we are still talking about the S2, people writing reviews about it and even defending it when we would have laughed our heads off and dismissed it outright if it wasn't Leica...
I was not specifically talking about the S as it was the M you mentioned. To be honest as I don't own or plan to own any Leica non of it is my problem. It's an endless expensive merry-go-round where ever you place your bet. Sometime I just wish digital would go away altogether.
Kevin.
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Sometime I just wish digital would go away altogether.
Kevin.
Kevin, sometimes I feel exactly the same. Then, I get the urge to try something and I get almost instant results which changes everything...
I think that it depends on what you're doing at the time. I loved transparencies and the fact that after the shoot they were your problem only until the edit and then you just sent in the bill or, if personal, pulled out the scanner.
Mainly, I resent the time sitting at a computer tempting DVT which, for me, is no idle fear. I had an extraordinary event happen two days ago: I was spotting out a file, saving as I went along, and saved again at the end of the work. Next day, I opened it up and had lost all the spotting. I have no idea why, nor how, but it happened nonetheless, and I had to re-do it all. This time, it stayed put. So far.
Rob C
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In my opinion the biggest mistake Leica made was dumping on their loyal R users. I sold almost every piece of my Leica equipment (still offering my 280/400 APO modular system with f2.8 focusing module if anyone is interested) because Leica trashed all R users. Some people think this was a good move on Leica's part but, to me, it was the mistake, that if Leica fails, will be the main reason for their demise. You just can't throw out 20 years of loyal customers as if they are trash.
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In my opinion the biggest mistake Leica made was dumping on their loyal R users. I sold almost every piece of my Leica equipment (still offering my 280/400 APO modular system with f2.8 focusing module if anyone is interested) because Leica trashed all R users. Some people think this was a good move on Leica's part but, to me, it was the mistake, that if Leica fails, will be the main reason for their demise. You just can't throw out 20 years of loyal customers as if they are trash.
I agree!
See this link: http://www.summilux.net/r10/index.php?lang=en (http://www.summilux.net/r10/index.php?lang=en)
Cheers,
Fred.
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One of the keys to the market success of the S2 will be if they can become a presence in rental houses. So far a search for Leica S2 Rentals points to our companies Leica S2 Rental page (http://www.captureintegration.com/2010/02/03/leica-s2-rental/), Dale Photo's, and an online warehouse-style rental place.
I personally don't think that any of us will get a particularly strong response for rental until there are at least the four initial lenses out in LS versions. However, with a 35mm, 70mm, 120mm, and 180mm leaf shutter lens version out we may get response from those fashion shooters who are:
1) currently shooting dSLRs
2) want to differentiate themselves branding and image quality wise from 5DII, 1DsIII, D3X etc shooters
3) are shooting on a budget where the difference between renting a 5DII kit and a renting a S2 kit is only a small % of the production budget
We have more than a few shooters a month who only request prime lenses and often enquire about Zeiss for the Canon because they want top notch lenses.
We also have a lot of shooters in Miami who rent the H system specifically for the leaf shutter lenses.
So there is a potential for a market there IMO. Only time will tell.
Doug Peterson
Doug Peterson ()
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In my opinion the biggest mistake Leica made was dumping on their loyal R users. I sold almost every piece of my Leica equipment (still offering my 280/400 APO modular system with f2.8 focusing module if anyone is interested) because Leica trashed all R users. Some people think this was a good move on Leica's part but, to me, it was the mistake, that if Leica fails, will be the main reason for their demise. You just can't throw out 20 years of loyal customers as if they are trash.
I agree 100%
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Leica strategy is obvious; announce the discontinuance of "R" line. R users sell to those with Sony or Canon bodies, or just trash. Put out M's and S's for 2-3 years.
In 2012 a Leica R-AF will be announce, 50MP FF, with a new line of lenses, R mount (or R adaptable). There will be enough holdouts, with a few R lenses, just enough to seem 'worthwhile"
Any you will buy it!
So will I
Or it may be a 4/3 but it will come with AF lenses, S2 technology and a new lens line. The adapter for older R lenses only requires a registry distance compatible. (or a simple reverse say .7x extender)
Why do I think this? Leica has repeatedly said, "there will be a product for the "R" users. They Said R lenses were disc. and R bodies. They did NOT say you would never again have a Leica product for R lenses.
But I have been known to be wrong :-).....
....rarely LOL
Best regards
Victor
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I really would like to know whether Leica is SELLING the camera to people and if the new Leica dealers are happy how it is going ? I can only speak for two dealers in Germany, who both took the path of wanting to sell the S2. They both had around 10 preorders and so on, in the end they both canceled their contract with Leica and haven't sold one single S2. The only two things remaining are a Leica Logo on the Homepage and around 20-40 Leica S2 booklets. So is it better in the US ? ?
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Leica strategy is obvious; announce the discontinuance of "R" line. R users sell to those with Sony or Canon bodies, or just trash. Put out M's and S's for 2-3 years.
In 2012 a Leica R-AF will be announce, 50MP FF, with a new line of lenses, R mount (or R adaptable). There will be enough holdouts, with a few R lenses, just enough to seem 'worthwhile"
Any you will buy it!
So will I
Or it may be a 4/3 but it will come with AF lenses, S2 technology and a new lens line. The adapter for older R lenses only requires a registry distance compatible. (or a simple reverse say .7x extender)
Why do I think this? Leica has repeatedly said, "there will be a product for the "R" users. They Said R lenses were disc. and R bodies. They did NOT say you would never again have a Leica product for R lenses.
But I have been known to be wrong :-).....
....rarely LOL
Best regards
Victor
Victor, I have to say, after reading your post carefuly over and over again, that you might be absolutely right.
Fred.
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Not sure if he got through a dealer, or Leica themselves since he's on the list for prototype testing (got #21 and #24 M9 models), but I know at least one shooter in the US with an S2. He took it out for a spin the other day.
His blog post about it:
http://aphotocontributor.typepad.com/aphot...real-beast.html (http://aphotocontributor.typepad.com/aphotocontributor/2010/02/the-real-beast.html)
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Not sure if he got through a dealer, or Leica themselves since he's on the list for prototype testing (got #21 and #24 M9 models), but I know at least one shooter in the US with an S2. He took it out for a spin the other day.
His blog post about it:
http://aphotocontributor.typepad.com/aphot...real-beast.html (http://aphotocontributor.typepad.com/aphotocontributor/2010/02/the-real-beast.html)
You know, I like Chris's work but taking out a S2 to shoot Jpegs.... is a bit nutty for me.
but hey to each their own....
am
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Not sure if he got through a dealer, or Leica themselves since he's on the list for prototype testing (got #21 and #24 M9 models), but I know at least one shooter in the US with an S2. He took it out for a spin the other day.
His blog post about it:
http://aphotocontributor.typepad.com/aphot...real-beast.html (http://aphotocontributor.typepad.com/aphotocontributor/2010/02/the-real-beast.html)
Hey, what an interesting link...if you read between lines about the "fucking landscape shooters"...but the think is, that there are probably more talent in some forums than what I've seen in those more than average pictures.
It is worth a look, judge by yourself.
I think he did not like some critisims here and somewhere else, and he is angry.
He will survive...
Fred.
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AM - I agree with you about the JPGs. But I can understand his point from a workflow standpoint here. He wasn't going to have time to do any work on them, and given that there is still some question about the raw conversions, he wasn't taking chances. I imagine the JPGS were tagged and up on the wire pretty immediately.
As for his attitude, he's pretty opinionated and has little patience for the dentists shooting scenic barns with a 1DsMkIII and a P65+ on order crowd. I think he could care less about what anyone in a forum thinks.
He will survive, and so will we. I take him with a good natured grain of salt. I like his work.
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AM - I agree with you about the JPGs. But I can understand his point from a workflow standpoint here. He wasn't going to have time to do any work on them, and given that there is still some question about the raw conversions, he wasn't taking changes. I imagine the JPGS were tagged and up on the wire pretty immediately.
As for his attitude, he's pretty opinionated and has little patience for the dentists shooting scenic barns with a 1DsMkIII and a P65+ on order crowd. I think he could care less about what anyone in a forum thinks.
He will survive, and so will we. I take him with a good natured grain of salt. I like his work.
I agree with you.
I don't have any problem with opinionated people.
am
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Seriously, He is a great photographer no doubt, and it is fine he says what he thinks without curves...and it is fine we do the same.
Liam, since I joined the LU-LA I'm learning much more english expressions than in my all studies.
The "dentists shooting scenic barns" made me laugh for awile. I loved it!
Fred.
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Why can't we just get a coupled rangefinder camera with a 6x6 digital FF sensor ... ?
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Why can't we just get a coupled rangefinder camera with a 6x6 digital FF sensor ... ?
mmm...pentax was on that, but now it is not sure they will do it this year. I would like to because I have some wonderful pentax primes that I do not use. A digital succesor of the Pentax 6x7 would be terrific. (it is not rangefinder but...quasi) But I might get tired of waiting and invest in another system if they don't do it this year.
Fred.
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Nothing prevents Leica from designing the S2 to be factory-upgradable to a new sensor - send it in, and get a new hi-rez or hi-iso or CMOS chip, and maybe LiveView electronics drop-shiipped back home for $10K? Maybe get the shutter and mirrorbox swapped too, and a new battery thrown in? Also, this would be a steady revenue stream which would bypass the dealers, just like Microsoft got - dealers sell an S2 once, Leica gets 2 or 3 upgrades out of it because used cameras can be upgraded too ...
Edmund
+1
they need to get this official and publicly stated, just like Phase, an Upgrade Path is very advisable for (potential) customers so they know their investment is protected to an acceptable degree.
I went from P45+ to P65+ via that route, and it kept me in the Phase loop.
its not necessary withthe M series cameras so much, but with the S series and its stratospheric prices, it most definitely is.
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Hi,
Leica had an upgrade program for the M8, at least.
Best regards
Erik
+1
they need to get this official and publicly stated, just like Phase, an Upgrade Path is very advisable for (potential) customers so they know their investment is protected to an acceptable degree.
I went from P45+ to P65+ via that route, and it kept me in the Phase loop.
its not necessary withthe M series cameras so much, but with the S series and its stratospheric prices, it most definitely is.
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Shooting people my favorite pastime' - Russia's Medvedev
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20100210/157837850.html (http://en.rian.ru/russia/20100210/157837850.html)
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ha - nice to know he can afford one at least.
I see the price of this already declining a bit in USA. no need to pay full list unlike the M9.
Leica over-pitched it.
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ha - nice to know he can afford one at least.
he can afford as many as he want
(http://pics.livejournal.com/drugoi/pic/00y04kzp.jpg)
(http://pics.livejournal.com/drugoi/pic/00y15x00.jpg)
(http://pics.livejournal.com/drugoi/pic/00y18bz6.jpg)
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"When tethered via USB the S2's performance is dramatically reduced. Each frame takes about 15 seconds to transmit to the computer and then a further five seconds till the image appears"
This is the most ridiculous oversight I've seen in a long time, does Leica have any idea what a professional photographer does. Is this a dentists camera after all...
I have an S2 (have had it for six weeks now, I paid retail and got it through normal retail channels) and so having read through this thread today I thought I'd test my shipping version's tethered performance.
I do not often shoot tethered but sometimes need to, and when I do it is 20% in the field, and about 40/40 studio still life and portrait. So I am not one of those guys that needs to pop off 100 shots a minute and I rarely know where the Continuous button is on my cameras. Nonetheless I do own a fairly well equipped studio, two or three macs, an S2 and a Phase One setup with P45+ on an AFDIII with a 'new' style body on order. So I was able to run some comparative tests. Not very scientific, using an iPhone as a timer, but you get the picture.
First up the S2. I set up a folder for it to dump into and then just monitored how quickly it can do so. The answer is 15 frames a minute in C mode but in S mode you can get it to 17. Interestingly, the first ten seconds in C mode see nine frames recorded and then the rate drops radically. If you shoot into LR the first frame appears in a shade under 12 seconds but C1 has it from a hot folder in 8.8 and if you just watch the folder itself, the first frame is there in 5.7.
Next, the P45+ and I should mention here that I find when shooting studio sessions, this is sometimes a pig. When the wind is in the right direction it's great but some sessions it just keeps dropping the camera/computer connection and requires re-starting of C1 and of the camera - once, memorably, when I had a paid model and a deadline, for every frame. Today however everything was smooth: I shot into a clean new tethered folder and the first frame popped up in 4.6 seconds. In Continuous mode I got 32 shots in the first minute BUT interestingly the first ten seconds captured only 6 frames as against the S2's 9.
The S2's performance here could certainly be faster, especially after the first burst of nine or ten frames, but honestly for the way I shoot I would find the S2 at least as useful as the P45+. I tend to bang of a small handful of frames and then check them on the monitor to see if I have what I want and the S2 is a little faster at that. I rarely use an assistant so by the time I've got to the monitor the lag in transmission, which for those first few frames is small anyway, would not be an issue. Given that I so far find Image Shuttle (despite still being in Beta) more dependable than C1's tethered shooting, I think I'd generally get more done and with less hassle with an S2.
Another really important thing, and I use this with joy, is the ability to shoot tethered to a Macbook Air. For travel landscape work this is a great boon when you're trying to keep weight down on airlines.
I do appreciate that a lot of you guys are working often with fast-paced fashion shoots, art directors and clients hovering critically over monitors and assistants aplenty and that for you, larger buffers and faster data rates are vital. For me it matters not a jot. I don't really 'get' why Leica went the way it did (other than the imminent demise of FW?) but the S2's tethered shooting suits me fine.
Tim
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Next, the P45+ and I should mention here that I find when shooting studio sessions, this is sometimes a pig. When the wind is in the right direction it's great but some sessions it just keeps dropping the camera/computer connection and requires re-starting of C1 and of the camera - once, memorably, when I had a paid model and a deadline, for every frame. Today however everything was smooth: I shot into a clean new tethered folder and the first frame popped up in 4.6 seconds. In Continuous mode I got 32 shots in the first minute BUT interestingly the first ten seconds captured only 6 frames as against the S2's 9.
I'd visit your Phase One dealer or give them a call. There is no reason your P45+ tethering shouldn't be absolutely rock solid. This is one of the reasons why Phase One backs tethered to Capture One have by far the largest market in professional rental.
You could also check out our ideal tethred setup guide (http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/09/09/the-ideal-tethered-setup/) which outlines the things that can sometimes cause issues. At the top of my list in the last couple months (as far as calls to our dealership) has been people who have another firewire device plugged in (even if not in use) - firewire busses can sometimes start cross-talking when more than one device is plugged in which can cause a dropped connection.
The Image Shuttle tethering application is very promising but they have not yet removed the "beta" label the last time I checked (Jan 29) and I would agree with their decision not to do so as in my experience it's not yet at production-stability. The promising aspects are the ability to shoot both JPG and RAW, but place them in different folders (could be very helpful to digital techs), the ability to completely control the camera from the computer, the simple-but-informative interface, and some nice UI touches that I find very smartly implemented.
The positive about S2 tethering is, as you point out, that initial burst of images possible. The negative is the shot-to-preview time, especially for the last image in a series, can be upwards of a minute long. Though a more appropriate comparison would be a Phase One P40+, Leaf Aptus-II 8 or H4D-40 (all of which are much faster than your P45+ and are more of a generational sibling to the S2). The Aptus-II 8 for instance can capture 60 images in a minute.
As you you so aptly illustrate though not everyone's needs long bursts with quick review when shooting tethered. Not everyone's needs are the same.
Doug Peterson ()
__________________
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I have been using Dragon Stop Motion http://www.dragonstopmotion.com/ (http://www.dragonstopmotion.com/) to tether; while it won't be very useful for action shots, it's abilities with regard to LiveView and overlays are superb.
Edmund
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Edmund,
Would you start a thread about HOW you're using this Dragon Stop Motion, please?
Billy
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My bet is that Leica can simply ignore the pro market and sell these things to wealthy amateurs. THAT is their market for this camera; not pros. There are way more wealthy amateurs out there than pros shooting tethered in a commercial studio. (Wouldn't you just love to see the market share demographics, just out of curiosity?) I'd bet it might be as high as 10:1.
Their target market will never tether, and will never come close to hitting the buffer. They'll shoot low-volume landscapes, or whatever, and probably be incredibly happy with the camera. I am dead serious.
I'm betting that, if we could ever get our paws on those top-secret demographic break-out sheets, we'd find that professional photographers that are owning and using MF gear, and tethering, are but a tiny blip on anybody's radar. My bet is, most pros that are tethering with paying jobs are renting the whole rig either from the studio, or from a Tech. They shoot the job, hand the camera to the Tech, and wave goodbye.
This S2 is a camera to go into an Eddie Bauer Expedition, or a Range Rover. Not a Grip Truck.
Having said that, can you imagine that some Leica engineer sat there with his stopwatch, and timed Twenty Seconds before the RAW came in at a full rez, and said, "Yes, that is perfect. Much faster than 669 Polaroid! Ship it!"
To be serious for a second, you watch that video after reading Michael Reichmann's review, and it almost makes you embarrassed to be in the advertising business. So my apologies to Yair, from one Liar to Another -- we're both questionable in our ethics. We both ought to be sent to the Principal's Office.
Secondly, it underscores the value of an objective, thorough honest review, rather than relying on hype and "reviews" by the people selling the products, especially when you're talking fifty or sixty thousand dollars of investment. (Not that I was, but maybe somewhere, in some country, someone was).
I think for me, what made that Leica video even worse is, when you see one of those Behind The Scenes videos, there is a part of your brain that tells you that you're seeing the truth -- an unvarnished look under the hood of a photo session. When in fact, when you really look at that video, it's about as Hollywood as you can get. Could just as well have been Bruce Willis behind the camera, shooting while the strobes are going off, yet without any type of pocket wizard or sync cord in some of the scenes.
What's also sobering is how a thorough review separates the hype from the truth. In some lab in Germany right now, there's some engineer looking through the camera manual, trying frantically, in vain, to make sure that that USB port can somehow be upgraded to USB 3.0.
So when you think about it, no wonder that the Christian Poulsen guy might not have had any love for Mr. Reichmann -- think of how many dollars were on the line. But the only stroke of luck for Leica is -- no potential customer of the Leica S2 is reading Luminous Landscape, so they won't be presented with the truth. All those Leica customers are reading The Robb Report, Cigar Aficionado, and The Financial Times.
The lesson to Leica, in all this, should be to keep your cards close to your chest. Here they are, already late in shipping, supposedly due to "production issues", and they're still working out gaping holes in the system? But the key thing is: They're doing it publicly, in full view of the buying public.
There is a reason that a retail store puts up that brown kraft paper over the windows as they're prepping their stores -- they don't want the public to see the making of the sausage, until Grand Opening Day. Maybe they've learned a lesson in this; it certainly has blown up in their face.
And the ironic thing is: They fly to Havana, produce an expensive video, showing a fake fashion shoot, probably with a non-working camera, and they show the guy shooting to the computer, and yet, the most glaring shortcoming of the system is the very thing they feature in the video.
They'd have been much better off flying to Africa, on some Range Rover safari, and shown a bunch of handsome men and women shooting to card, with a bunch of lions and tigers in the background, at sunset, with a computer nowhere in sight.
Leica does extensive Market Research, to determine the most discriminating clients. The S2 was based on this man:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2SSZA0CjdQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2SSZA0CjdQ)
I appreciated tashley taking the time to post his observations of the Leica S2 after his 6 weeks of ownership. Although he has only made one post in this thread so far, I hope to read more of his experience in the future. I hope that it's positive, but want to read more of his experience either way.
gwhitf,
You have written several opinions of the Leica S2 in this thread and I'm wondering what experience you've had with the camera so far. Are you basing what you've written on what you've read about it or some hands on experience?
To quote a few samples from your above posts:
"My bet is that Leica can simply ignore the pro market and sell these things to wealthy amateurs. THAT is their market for this camera; not pros."
"Secondly, it underscores the value of an objective, thorough honest review, rather than relying on hype and "reviews" by the people selling the products, especially when you're talking fifty or sixty thousand dollars of investment. (Not that I was, but maybe somewhere, in some country, someone was)."
"What's also sobering is how a thorough review separates the hype from the truth."
"But the only stroke of luck for Leica is -- no potential customer of the Leica S2 is reading Luminous Landscape, so they won't be presented with the truth. All those Leica customers are reading The Robb Report, Cigar Aficionado, and The Financial Times."
"They fly to Havana, produce an expensive video, showing a fake fashion shoot, probably with a non-working camera,"
Fake shoot? Non-working camera? That seems like a pretty strong assertion. Have you not yet seen a working camera?
Are your several opinions "an objective, thorough honest review, rather than relying on hype"? Hype as we know can be negative as well as positive.
I'm asking because a movie review written by a critic based on what he's read about the movie has less value to me than one from a critic that has actually seen the movie. Know what I mean?
tashley... how does gwhitf know that you are reading "Cigar Aficionado"? Might want to close the curtains.
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I appreciated tashley taking the time to post his observations of the Leica S2 after his 6 weeks of ownership. Although he has only made one post in this thread so far, I hope to read more of his experience in the future. I hope that it's positive, but want to read more of his experience either way.
gwhitf,
You have written several opinions of the Leica S2 in this thread and I'm wondering what experience you've had with the camera so far. Are you basing what you've written on what you've read about it or some hands on experience?
To quote a few samples from your above posts:
"My bet is that Leica can simply ignore the pro market and sell these things to wealthy amateurs. THAT is their market for this camera; not pros."
"Secondly, it underscores the value of an objective, thorough honest review, rather than relying on hype and "reviews" by the people selling the products, especially when you're talking fifty or sixty thousand dollars of investment. (Not that I was, but maybe somewhere, in some country, someone was)."
"What's also sobering is how a thorough review separates the hype from the truth."
"But the only stroke of luck for Leica is -- no potential customer of the Leica S2 is reading Luminous Landscape, so they won't be presented with the truth. All those Leica customers are reading The Robb Report, Cigar Aficionado, and The Financial Times."
"They fly to Havana, produce an expensive video, showing a fake fashion shoot, probably with a non-working camera,"
Fake shoot? Non-working camera? That seems like a pretty strong assertion. Have you not yet seen a working camera?
Are your several opinions "an objective, thorough honest review, rather than relying on hype"? Hype as we know can be negative as well as positive.
I'm asking because a movie review written by a critic based on what he's read about the movie has less value to me than one from a critic that has actually seen the movie. Know what I mean?
tashley... how does gwhitf know that you are reading "Cigar Aficionado"? Might want to close the curtains.
ROTFL.... weirdly I did smoke a cigar last night but, and this may tell gwhitf something, I have no idea what it was - it just happened to be available and I enjoyed it.
I appreciate your invitation but I probably won't take it up: I have learned that there are an awful lot of people who who have never tasted Chinese food but have incredibly strong opinions on what it must surely taste like and why it has been wrongly prepared.
I have a gallery of S2 pictures at the below address and I hasten to add that these have all been taken in a casual walk around sense while I got to know the camera before committing to using it for anything serious. So they are educated snapshots only and I make no claim for them other than that. However, in the interests of collaborative endeavour, they are all available for download at their original size and as JPEGs most are at between 90 and 100% quality. Some are crops, many are not, and the shots are chosen purely to show a variety of ISO's, shutter speeds, apertures, working conditions etc. If they are useful to anyone, then I'm happy.
http://tashley1.zenfolio.com/p141510420/ha8ce4ab#ha8ce4ab (http://tashley1.zenfolio.com/p141510420/ha8ce4ab#ha8ce4ab)
Here's one of them for anyone interested:
(http://tashley1.zenfolio.com/img/v1/p177005739-5.jpg)
Best
Tim
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Edmund,
Would you start a thread about HOW you're using this Dragon Stop Motion, please?
Billy
I am interested too
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I am interested too
Done, thread is up in this forum, as it is LiveView and this is something us chickens here tend to do.
Edmund
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Not sure if he got through a dealer, or Leica themselves since he's on the list for prototype testing (got #21 and #24 M9 models), but I know at least one shooter in the US with an S2. He took it out for a spin the other day.
His blog post about it:
http://aphotocontributor.typepad.com/aphot...real-beast.html (http://aphotocontributor.typepad.com/aphotocontributor/2010/02/the-real-beast.html)
Maybe I'm alone here but I found myself getting wound up by his childish stream of consciousness style of 'writing'.