Luminous Landscape Forum

Site & Board Matters => About This Site => Topic started by: Slobodan Blagojevic on November 25, 2009, 02:41:13 pm

Title: Re: "A Call For Support"
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on November 25, 2009, 02:41:13 pm
Quote
... But we do ask from time to time for your support in the form of a purchase of one of our unique educational video products. We don't want contributions or gifts – just that you consider the purchase of one of our modestly priced products...
It might help to offer something new to buy.

This is not meant as criticism, but rather matter-of-factly. For instance, I already have LLJ #16, 17, and 18, "Guide to Asset Management" and "Camera to Print". Lightroom 2 and CS4 guides are most likely great, but they are old news by now... So, as much as I would like to help the site, there is not much new in the store to buy, at least not for me.
Title: Re: "A Call For Support"
Post by: Ed Jack on November 25, 2009, 03:41:55 pm
Quote from: slobodan56
It might help to offer something new to buy.

This is not meant as criticism, but rather matter-of-factly. For instance, I already have LLJ #16, 17, and 18, "Guide to Asset Management" and "Camera to Print". Lightroom 2 and CS4 guides are most likely great, but they are old news by now... So, as much as I would like to help the site, there is not much new in the store to buy, at least not for me.


The origional text has been self-removed from here, this was my only post on this thread, but I wish I hadn't got involved. As it had turned nasty and maybe I was provocative (but not wrong) I feel maybe I should just let things go when I read things that I find disproportionate ?! It is quite possible that I may have interpreted the above in too negative a light in any case.
Title: Re: "A Call For Support"
Post by: Schewe on November 25, 2009, 04:21:47 pm
Quote from: slobodan56
Lightroom 2 and CS4 guides are most likely great, but they are old news by now... So, as much as I would like to help the site, there is not much new in the store to buy, at least not for me.



The way you say that implies that you've not yet seen either the LR 2 or CS4 Camera Raw guides? If true, then I suggest you are speaking from ignorance as opposed to knowledge...if you think you know as much about Lightroom 2 or Camera Raw 4 as I do (and by not getting the vids, that's the presumption) then I suggest you may be wrong...

Pretty sure you could buy either and if you DON'T find them useful educational resources, request (and get) a full refund...

Quote
This is not meant as criticism...

Yeah, and you'll love me in the morning and the check is in the mail...
Title: Re: "A Call For Support"
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on November 25, 2009, 04:49:10 pm
Quote from: Ed Jack
Oh no not another attention seeker!

Oh no, not another LL Cerberus! I would expect Mr. Schewe to attack, but looks like he inspired a legion of faithfuls.

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I've been visiting this site almost daily and have been doing so for the last 10 years, so I think I know the site quite well. Yes sometimes Michael goes through phases of not making much origonal contribution, but then he normally has a good reason, like being in the wilderness actually doing photography... rather than criticing a free service and forum for phtotgraphers.. oh yeah sorry  I forgot, you weren't criticing were you ?!!

I love it when people start a post "I don't mean to be critical... BUT..." as if it makes them more considered opinions in some way.
How maliciously or benevolently you read my comments is your prerogative, of course... I stand by my initial matter-of-factly remark that the store (not site) does not have much new to offer.

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I not being overly syncophantic here, except to say...

"I love it when people start a post "I don't mean to be sycophantic... BUT..." as if it makes them more considered opinions in some way."  

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... that the products on offer here are unique in many ways, you have a hand full of the publication on the video journals, so I am not sure why you believe this... too much of a good thing maybe?!!
Also I am confident that IF you can supply a review or article of interest to Michael I am sure he would publish it and maybe raise your percieved lack of content atleast in your own mind!

Where exactly did I say anything about uniqueness of the offer? Given that I bought  a decent number of products myself (and will do again, as soon as something new appears), I obviously think the products are unique and valuable. Also, where exactly did I complain about the "lack of content" on the site? Once again, I was talking about the store only.

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To be fair, MR did mention in the same post the number of unique new visitors per day, so why not promote the back catalogue of work, the LL |Video journals are mostly photo technique and location based... this does NOT go out of fashion like techno geek speak, something which is fairly limmited in the products!

Dpreview is still open if you fancy winding them up too, to be honest a pointless thread like this should be removed by the moderators anyway

While I am sure there are new visitors every day, I dare to assume that the bulk of the visitors are the old ones, therefore the bulk of new (monetary) contributions would come from the repeated customers... hence my suggestion that new stuff in the store would help. Now... if a helpful (by intention) suggestion by someone who already and repeatedly sent his money to this site is met with such hostility, what is left for the perceived "enemies" then?
Title: Re: "A Call For Support"
Post by: ErikKaffehr on November 25, 2009, 05:31:20 pm
Hi,

I had bought almost all stuff Michael and friends made, partly for the information and partly because they are great fun. The tutorials are great, giving much insight but also fun. Having a free site is a great advantage. I actually subscribe at least one pay site (DAP and Zeiss Lenses http://www.diglloyd.com (http://www.diglloyd.com) ) and also once subscribed to Sean Reid Reviews (good reviews but I hated reading them in flash). There is a lot of positives to say about LL and very little negatives. The forums are of great value as knowledgeable persons often chime in on the discussions.

One suggestion I may make is that Michael could add a 'donate button' trough PayPal.

More frequent LLVJs would be nice. I personally enjoyed the earlier video journals more than the recent ones.

Best regards
Erik


Quote from: slobodan56
It might help to offer something new to buy.

This is not meant as criticism, but rather matter-of-factly. For instance, I already have LLJ #16, 17, and 18, "Guide to Asset Management" and "Camera to Print". Lightroom 2 and CS4 guides are most likely great, but they are old news by now... So, as much as I would like to help the site, there is not much new in the store to buy, at least not for me.
Title: Re: "A Call For Support"
Post by: BlasR on November 25, 2009, 05:42:41 pm
Quote from: slobodan56
It might help to offer something new to buy.

This is not meant as criticism, but rather matter-of-factly. For instance, I already have LLJ #16, 17, and 18, "Guide to Asset Management" and "Camera to Print". Lightroom 2 and CS4 guides are most likely great, but they are old news by now... So, as much as I would like to help the site, there is not much new in the store to buy, at least not for me.


Did you start this post to get some attention?
Title: Re: "A Call For Support"
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on November 25, 2009, 06:07:03 pm
Quote from: Schewe
... if you think you know as much about Lightroom 2 or Camera Raw 4 as I do (and by not getting the vids, that's the presumption) then I suggest you may be wrong...
Dear Mr. Schewe (with "c")! How would I ever dare to make such a preposterous presumption!? I tend to use Photoshop for reasons not even remotely close to a pissing contest, as you seem to imply.

However, you also seem to imply above something quite interesting as a marketing assumption: that those who are not buying your videos are just being arrogant (by assuming they know the subject better than you do). Trust me, there are gazillion subjects out there where I gladly admit I know way much less than the author... and yet I do not buy those books/videos either.

My point was different: with LR 3 already on the market (beta), and PS5 probably not too far away, my interest in buying educational material for previous versions is simply much smaller then it was when LR 2 and CS4 were a novelty.

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Yeah, and you'll love me in the morning...
In your dreams... I do not like bullies.

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... and the check is in the mail...
No... but it is actually in your hands already. I did buy your book "Real World Camera Raw with Adobe Photoshop CS3". You see, I can differentiate between lousy personality types and their technical expertise and give credit (and money) when credit is due.
Title: Re: "A Call For Support"
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on November 25, 2009, 06:17:13 pm
Quote from: BlasR
Did you start this post to get some attention?
Oh, you got me... you really uncovered my masochistic tendencies to expose myself to the usual flagellation and bullying by the Cerberus-in-Chief and the faithfuls.
Title: Re: "A Call For Support"
Post by: michael on November 25, 2009, 06:18:15 pm
OK everyone, calm down.

If you've already purchased some of our videos, thank you.

As for new video content, Chris is just finishing off the next Video Journal, and it should be online before the end of the year.

We will be taping at least two major new tutorials in the months head (meaning this winter) for spring publication.

As for the percentage of visitors who buy something, let's just say that it's less than a few percent of those that visit each month. That's who my message is aimed at, not those that do purchase and who participate here. Your support is greatly appreciated.

Michael
Title: Re: "A Call For Support"
Post by: cmi on November 25, 2009, 06:31:06 pm
Quote from: slobodan56
It might help to offer something new to buy.

This is not meant as criticism, but rather matter-of-factly. For instance, I already have LLJ #16, 17, and 18, "Guide to Asset Management" and "Camera to Print". Lightroom 2 and CS4 guides are most likely great, but they are old news by now... So, as much as I would like to help the site, there is not much new in the store to buy, at least not for me.

Slobodan,

Im not sure how to say this...

do you really think your are telling Michael something new? I would guess Michael is well aware about the state of his offers. Its not that he would be like "Oh my gosh - yeah, I have to offer something new, I forgot, gee, thanks!" So I wonder what you wanted to accomplish.

Essentially you are stepping up and saying "Nothing I'd like to buy now, give me something new."  No matter how you are saying it, in this context, even more so as the very first answer, honestly, I can understand people interpreting that as offensive. I fully believe you didnt intended to come across like that, you just said what you where thinking, I dont believe you wanted to make an attack on Michael, but thats how it came across at least to me and as it seems also to some others, as at least slightly offensive.

Just had to say that, best wishes to you, and sorry for my bad English,


Christian
Title: Re: "A Call For Support"
Post by: PierreVandevenne on November 25, 2009, 06:41:00 pm
Quote from: BlasR
Did you start this post to get some attention?

Quite frankly, and at the risk of becoming a "flamed" customer myself, he has a point. And so does Erik. I really would love new LLVJs. BTW, businesswise, the LLVJ is a great idea. And a constant flow of them would generate a smoother revenue stream for the site, unlike product specific tutorials that have a shelf life similar to niche IT product books.

As far as Ed Jack's answer is concerned, here is my suggestion.

I've been visiting this site about three times a week, for the last three years. He's been visiting the site daily, for the last ten years. Assuming we're using the same bandwidth per visit, he has consumed about 8 times the bandwidth I have consumed. Since bandwidth costs seems to be an issue, I suggest the following: Ed Jack and I will privately compare the total of our LL invoices, multiply it by our bandwidth usage and one of us will adjust its contribution to LL upwards so it matches the other. Deal?
 
Title: Re: "A Call For Support"
Post by: Schewe on November 25, 2009, 07:30:07 pm
Quote from: slobodan56
No... but it is actually in your hands already. I did buy your book "Real World Camera Raw with Adobe Photoshop CS3". You see, I can differentiate between lousy personality types and their technical expertise and give credit (and money) when credit is due.

Wow...cool but ya know, CS4 shipped with Camera Raw 5.x so once again you are behind the 8-ball...

Quote
Dear Mr. Schewe (with "c")! How would I ever dare to make such a preposterous presumption!? I tend to use Photoshop for reasons not even remotely close to a pissing contest, as you seem to imply.

Not a pissing contest at all...but if you think there's nothing you can learn about LR 2 and Camera Raw 5 in CS4 then I would suggest you are wrong.

If you want more video tutorials, why not tell Adobe to increase the frequency of major new upgrades...say every 6 months of so–that will be sure to blow peoples' heads right off.

:~)
Title: Re: "A Call For Support"
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on November 25, 2009, 08:03:26 pm
A simple solution is for those who have the tutorials and want to make a contribution:  simply order the tutorial again, pay the money as an in kind contribution.  Pretty simple solution (at least in my mind).
Title: Re: "A Call For Support"
Post by: John Camp on November 25, 2009, 08:22:56 pm
Excuse me for interrupting the pissing contest, but I've never understood why LL -- "lula" -- doesn't have a t-shirt for sale for, say, $20 plus shipping. There's a site called "Hatchwise" in which designers create logos for prices of around $300, and many of the proposals are pretty damn good. After lula got a neat photo-oriented logo, I'll bet you could farm out the manufacture and shipping to a t-shirt site, and LL wouldn't have to do anything but send on the order information...and pick up, I suspect, a pretty nice chunk of cash. If you have a million unique users a month, you probably have a couple of million unique users a year. Sell a t-shirt to 1%, and that's a lot of t-shirts. And baseball caps. Photographers like hats and t-shirts. Especially with a neat logo.

JC
Title: Re: "A Call For Support"
Post by: michael on November 25, 2009, 09:25:39 pm
Thanks for the suggestion John, but I have no interest in selling caps and t-shirts.

This isn't about simply making money. It's trying to get the 990,000 people who visit the site each month, read our dozen or more new articles, review and tutorials, yet who don't consider purchasing one of our video products,  either because they think that it will inform or entertain them, or as a recognition of what they receive without charge.

Michael
Title: Re: "A Call For Support"
Post by: Griffin Friedman on November 26, 2009, 01:12:26 am
Quote from: Schewe
The way you say that implies that you've not yet seen either the LR 2 or CS4 Camera Raw guides? If true, then I suggest you are speaking from ignorance as opposed to knowledge...if you think you know as much about Lightroom 2 or Camera Raw 4 as I do (and by not getting the vids, that's the presumption) then I suggest you may be wrong...

I think the point is that there's newer software just around the corner. While that's always the case to some extent, it's especially valid towards the end of a version's life. I imagine sales of the LR2 guide have fallen since it was introduced, and probably took a sharp fall after the introduction of the LR3 beta. This isn't because the content is any less valid or useful, but because consumers want to get the best value for their dollar. Can you understand why I might now want to buy the LR2 tutorial now when I know I'm going to probably want the LR3 tutorial as well, and would rather wait a few months than pay twice?

I bought the LR2 tutorial a month or two before the LR3 beta was released. It was my first Luminous Landscape download. Am I disappointed that I bought it? Not at all. I continue to recommend it to my friends and whenever possible, on other forums. Had the LR3 beta been released I probably would have waited though. Now that I've downloaded and watched it I realize how useful and informative it was, but it was a gamble, and without knowing that I would have most likely waited for the LR3 version to get the best bang for my buck.

One possible way to counteract this cycle of constantly waiting for the next version would be to offer credits or discounted prices to those that have already bought a tutorial, similar to the way apple does others discounted OS updates to those that purchased computers in the weeks before an OS update. This rewards loyalty and provides comfort to those who are worried about newer better versions coming out shortly after they purchase. The downside is that you lose revenue from those that would have purchased the newer version regardless of the cost. I'm sure michael has numbers on how many people do just that, and can decide whether it is worth it.

Another potential option, and something I'd definitely go for, would be the option to pay one higher price up front, and get all future versions of that videos for free. There could even be the option to pay a single fee and have access to all the video content, maybe for a limited amount of time, without having to pay individually.
Title: Re: "A Call For Support"
Post by: jeremyrh on November 26, 2009, 03:06:48 am
Quote from: slobodan56
No... but it is actually in your hands already. I did buy your book "Real World Camera Raw with Adobe Photoshop CS3". You see, I can differentiate between lousy personality types and their technical expertise and give credit (and money) when credit is due.
You're a better man than I. I'm sure Schewe has lots to teach me about photography, and I'd benefit enormously from watching his videos and reading his books, but I can't quite bring myself to put money in his pocket. My lack of emotional intelligence, and my loss in the end, no doubt.

I find it hard to believe that your observation generated so much vituperation - it seems quite reasonable to me that someone who has already bought quite a few items from the LL store might be hoping for something new. Of course it might not be cost effective for Michael to feed your habit, rather than market to "virgin" readers, but I don't really see the harm in your explaining how things look from your perspective.

Ho hum ...
Title: Re: "A Call For Support"
Post by: jenbenn on November 26, 2009, 03:30:48 am
I am appalled. I usually read this forum and contribute from time to time because I love the high expertise and the civilized manners of the visitors.  This used to be so much better than dpreview or any other of the Know-nothing-forums out there.  Seeing now that one of the chief contributors to LL and the forum looses his temper over a friendly critizism that is meant to be constructive simply because he does not agree with the critic makes me really worried.  Mr Schewe, I dont think an expert of your standing needs to react so harshly.  

Anyways, I do enjoy the videos produced by Micheal very much. Since I am just a student with very low income I have only purchased one video journal so far. Quite possible I will buy the new journal when it comes out, if the discount is still on then. Here comes my suggesttion: If there was a constant discount on LL products for students I think a lot more people would buy. If you think internationally there are a lot of students interested in photography  who bought  Lightroom as a student version for 100US$ (as I did) and took free classes at uni to learn the program. To be honest these classes are many times rubbish so one would wish to have a good video tuorial.  But paying 40US$ for a tutorial is quite a lot if you consider that the program's price was only 100Us$. Addiditionally at least for me it would take a one or two months of saving to afford  a tutorial.  ( I realize that in absolut terms 40 US$ is not much and surely not too much for the quality, but it is unfortunately too much for many students.)

You also have to consider that at the same price of 40US$ one can buy good tutorials in German, French, Italian etc, which are much more convinient for the speakers of those languages even when they are less informative then the LL videos.  I think that if the price of LL videos was lower many more international buyers would accept the inconvienience of viewing their tutorial in English. ( A lot of non-native speakers  have little problems reading English in their own time, so they visit your website.  But understanding  spoken English is a whole different matter for a non native without constant practice)

BTW, may I  propose that you add subtitles for non-natives to you videos? I know many people who would benefit greatly from that. For example all my friends, although their English is quite good, always switch on the (English) subtitles when they watch an English movie.
Title: Re: "A Call For Support"
Post by: Josh-H on November 26, 2009, 03:50:45 am
Here is my take...

I own everything Michael has produced - both in the way of video journals and in the way of tutorials. One of Michaels prints also hangs in my home gallery (Blue Lace Berg - and I love it).

I buy his tutorials and video journals for several reasons. Firstly, they are extremely informative, and I have learnt a lot from them (I am not embarrassed to say). Even the most seasoned Lightroom or Photoshop user will learn something from them (I usse both Lightroom and Photoshop daily and still learnt a lot), Secondly, they are wonderful entertainment and I thoroughly enjoy the banter, photographic talk and of course shirt wars! I enjoy the exotic locations and of course the photographic equipment reviews, techniques and general photo chit chat (I actually really enjoy the conclusions and choice of vino/single malt/beer to boot :-) )

Do I wish there was more in the way of content?

Of course! But then again.. I also understand how much work it is to produce this content and the age old motto of 'always leave them wanting more'.

Do I care abou the price?

Nup.. To be honest I would purchase them at 4 times the price. But thats just me.. I see value in them and can afford to pay the price of entry. That is not the point. The price is fair (in fact cheap) and reasonable.

The point is - as I understand, that Michael is requesting current readers and regulars who have not purchased anything to please do so to help contribute to the costs of running the site. Fair enough in my book as there are clearly server and bandwidth costs involved in the site. Given the amount of free content on the site (and lets face it there is a humungous amount) I think its an entirely legitimate request. It would be a very sad day for me if Lula were ever to be closed down because its upkeep costs could not be met.
Title: Re: "A Call For Support"
Post by: stamper on November 26, 2009, 04:29:30 am
QUOTE (slobodan56 @ Nov 26 2009, 01:07 AM) *
No... but it is actually in your hands already. I did buy your book "Real World Camera Raw with Adobe Photoshop CS3". You see, I can differentiate between lousy personality types and their technical expertise and give credit (and money) when credit is due.

A very pertinent point. I too bought the book and found it very good. Better than - imo - Rob Sheppards book which is btw worthy of buying. But I wonder how many have been put off buying the book and other books by him? He is of course entitled to his opinion but as to marketing his products a publishers nightmare?
Title: Re: "A Call For Support"
Post by: pegelli on November 26, 2009, 04:39:06 am
Strange thread.

On the one hand isn't it blatently obvious that Michael's request isn't pointed at people who find nothing new in his shop because they already have purchased all items of their interest there.

On the other hand I'm also surprized why this has to pointed out so harsh and uncivilized to the OP.  
Title: Re: "A Call For Support"
Post by: Rob C on November 26, 2009, 05:11:02 am
Quote from: pegelli
Strange thread.

On the one hand isn't it blatently obvious that Michael's request isn't pointed at people who find nothing new in his shop because they already have purchased all items of their interest there.

On the other hand I'm also surprized why this has to pointed out so harsh and uncivilized to the OP.  




I think it is quite easy to understand, really.

a. I believe that the OP was not intending an attack.
b. I believe that Michael didn't see it as an attack either.
c. I believe that personality glitches in the resident Rottweiler were simply, and unavoidably, switched on; better ask Pavlov.
d. I believe that there is a band of regulars here that is simply unable to accept that views different to its own can be legitimate.
e. I believe I Believe was one of Frankie Laine's greatest hits.

Lighten up, folks, it ain't the end of anybody's world.

Rob C
Title: Re: "A Call For Support"
Post by: Jim Pascoe on November 26, 2009, 06:10:25 am
When I first started reading the item at the top of 'What's new", I had a dreadful feeling that Michael was announcing the imminent demise of LL unless financial assistance was forthcoming.  Even as my eyes ran over the first few lines I was mentally reaching for my credit card to make a donation, until I reached the end of the section and saw that it was in fact a request for site visitors to buy some of the excellent tutorials.

I have bought a number of tutorials from the site, and will probably buy the Asset Management tutorial in the New Year, when I might have time to watch it.

The OP was merely commenting on the dearth of new items to buy that would interest him, as one of the seemingly tiny proportion of site visitors who does actually buy from, and therefore support, the site.

It is hard to believe that some people would attack in such a strong way another forum member who is obviously a fan and supporter of the site.  Michael has now clarified that his item was really a plea to the silent majority who never financially support the site and asks us all to calm down.  Is Schewe really doing the site any favours by reacting in such a strong way?  He is obviously well-respected for his technical skill and knowledge, but does not come across very well in posts like this.  Are site and forum visitors more likely to buy tutorials featuring Schewe now?  If 10% of site visitors spent half of what Slobodan has on tutorials and books by Schewe, I am sure the site's finances would be in a very healthy state.

Michael, this is a great site, and I for one will continue to support it and still would even if it became a subscription site, as I now do to Sean Reid's site.    

Schewe, I try hard to like you, but you really do not need to leap into the attack every time you perceive the slightest critique to LL or Michael. But then surely a man who rides a BMW R can't be all bad?
Title: Re: "A Call For Support"
Post by: caribsurf on November 26, 2009, 06:30:42 am
As a very recent member of The Luminous Landscape, I am surprised at how quickly the tone and quality of debate slips into the gutter. Mr Reichmann's request for support seems totally in order and slobodan56's response to be reasonably measured and innocuous, but I have not been on this site long enough to know if Schewe and slobodan56 have ongoing scores to settle. As a retired Sales Manager, one of the things that you train salespeople to do is how to handle objections. When potential Customers present you with objections, the classic response is to provide an analysis of your perception of why they do not see your Product or Service as providing a solution to his or her situation and ASKING THEM IF YOUR PERCEPTION IS CORRECT. The next part of the process is to provide Proof. If you can't do this, then any sale is unlikely and it is better to acknowledge that you cannot help with his or her problem this time but may well be able to do so with a different problem on another occasion. Simply being rude and attacking them will never ever be productive. So far, the few threads that I have joined in with have been very light on facts and many of the Contributors just make unjustified statements that plainly cannot be accurate E.G. "You can't demonstrate it with web jpegs, and not much point in trying." (Why do all Camera Equipment manufacturers have Image Sites if that were the case?)  and the loose and interchangeable use of the description "Professional" and "Amateur" (the inference being that if an individual has been shootings images for twenty years they are "Professional" VS someone with four of five years experience being an "Amateur"). I have not bought anything yet, but I am considering doing so. Certain individuals poor attitude and getting down in the gutter does not actually encourage anyone to take the software training seriously when the author blows his or her top. This is how I see things as newcomer. Sticking to indisputable facts and being levelled headed might be a better approach for all of us.
Title: Re: "A Call For Support"
Post by: mike.online on November 26, 2009, 06:58:00 am
Hi Michael,

I thought I would throw my $0.02 into the well.

A friend of mine showed me the "from camera to print" video and while I had read a few articles before, that was really what hooked me onto this site. Since then I've bought your LR2 video and enjoyed it thoroughly.

As for the LLVJ's I've only bought one so far, Antarctica. I had read all of the written content from that trip, and that's what pushed me into buying the VJ (I wouldn't have otherwise) and also what encouraged me to drive to your gallery from Kingston (where I was a student) just to see the prints first hand.

As for the older VJs, I'm sure that they are excellent, but for me at least, its the connection from the other content (written and photographic) that pulls me in to know more. I suppose that's the unfortunate (for me) reality which keeps me from buying older issues. Maybe you could link the articles that you wrote from the previous VJ so that I could 'get into' them more and be compelled to buy the corresponding VJ?

Mind you, my frugality might be because I was a student (little income) when I joined the site and am now an intern in Ethiopia (also little income).

I'm guessing that the next VJ will have something to do with the Leica's and Death Valley (PODAS). Those intrigue me, and I'm likely to buy the VJ while I'm back in Canada (for the holidays). The free site content drives me to the purchases. Maybe this is all pretty obvious stuff, but I'm sure its nice to hear from customers just the same.

Anyways I also just wanted to say that in the past few months there has been a ton of content (reviews and whatnot) posted on your site which I have read and enjoyed the great majority. Keep up the great work!

- Micheal
Title: Re: "A Call For Support"
Post by: PierreVandevenne on November 26, 2009, 07:25:45 am
Quote from: caribsurf
I have not bought anything yet, but I am considering doing so. Certain individuals poor attitude and getting down in the gutter does not actually encourage anyone to take the software training seriously when the author blows his or her top. This is how I see things as newcomer. Sticking to indisputable facts and being levelled headed might be a better approach for all of us.

The training videos I have purchased are really worth their price, both in form and content. Highly recommended.  When you buy a book, you judge it on its content and don't know or care if the author never buys a drink for friends, beats his wife or worse ;-) If everyone stuck to facts and kept his cool, forums would be dull. And I sheepishly confess that watching the Schewe vs World rounds can be entertaining at times.
Title: Re: "A Call For Support"
Post by: BlasR on November 26, 2009, 08:08:12 am
Quote from: slobodan56
Oh, you got me... you really uncovered my masochistic tendencies to expose myself to the usual flagellation and bullying by the Cerberus-in-Chief and the faithfuls.


Don't get mad, just get more DVD for your friends/family they are great & nice info.  if you don't have dvd 1 -18 I will recommend you to get it.

Happy thanksgiving my friend.  life is beautiful enjoy it
Title: Re: "A Call For Support"
Post by: budjames on November 26, 2009, 08:15:08 am
I'm a charter subscriber to LLDVJ, have purchased every tutorial produced by Michael and friends, and I visit the web site probably at least once a day.

I think that Michael, Chris and others have done an excellent job of educating us all and providing a forum to meet others and share experiences online. For all of the above, thank you!

So, I ditto Mike's request to purchase the tutorials or whatever to help support the cause. I'm sure that there a thousands of individuals that enjoy the site, but have not purchased all of the available tutorials. If each one stepped up and purchased just one item, that would make a significant contribution to the support the web site.

I'm also a member of the National Association of Photoshop Professionals for which I pay $99/yr to belong. I am not a professional, but just a serious amateur photographer. Yet, I find my membership to NAPP a worthy investment. Scott Kelby and associates have done an incredible job of commericializing Photoshop and Lightroom education. I hope he makes a lot of money doing it too because I want him to long term success into the future providing excellent resources for folks like me.

There are several other sites, FredMiranda.com, for example, that charge subscriptions to access portions of the web site. I understand that there is significant cost to maintaining a web site and forum for all of the world to enjoy, therefore, I have no problem if Michael starts to charge to access his web site as it's that good!

Cheers.
Bud James
Title: Re: "A Call For Support"
Post by: ErikKaffehr on November 26, 2009, 11:25:53 am
Hi,

I'd just add that they are also entertaining, much more than anything on TV or made in Hollywood. Just my 2 cents, soon worth a penny ;-)

Best regards
Erik


Quote from: Josh-H
Here is my take...

I own everything Michael has produced - both in the way of video journals and in the way of tutorials. One of Michaels prints also hangs in my home gallery (Blue Lace Berg - and I love it).

I buy his tutorials and video journals for several reasons. Firstly, they are extremely informative, and I have learnt a lot from them (I am not embarrassed to say). Even the most seasoned Lightroom or Photoshop user will learn something from them (I usse both Lightroom and Photoshop daily and still learnt a lot), Secondly, they are wonderful entertainment and I thoroughly enjoy the banter, photographic talk and of course shirt wars! I enjoy the exotic locations and of course the photographic equipment reviews, techniques and general photo chit chat (I actually really enjoy the conclusions and choice of vino/single malt/beer to boot :-) )

Do I wish there was more in the way of content?

Of course! But then again.. I also understand how much work it is to produce this content and the age old motto of 'always leave them wanting more'.

Do I care abou the price?

Nup.. To be honest I would purchase them at 4 times the price. But thats just me.. I see value in them and can afford to pay the price of entry. That is not the point. The price is fair (in fact cheap) and reasonable.

The point is - as I understand, that Michael is requesting current readers and regulars who have not purchased anything to please do so to help contribute to the costs of running the site. Fair enough in my book as there are clearly server and bandwidth costs involved in the site. Given the amount of free content on the site (and lets face it there is a humungous amount) I think its an entirely legitimate request. It would be a very sad day for me if Lula were ever to be closed down because its upkeep costs could not be met.
Title: Re: "A Call For Support"
Post by: David Mantripp on November 26, 2009, 02:00:35 pm
I used to have LL on speed dial. I learnt a lot from the forums. The workshop I participated in was a turning point on several levels. And I bought my first DVD player just to watch LLVJ vol 1.  And then I bought the whole set.   And Lightroom tutorials too, even though I've exercised my democratic right to use the Competitor's Product, AND I don't think that video tutorials in general are anywhere near as useful as books, albeit these are most certainly entertaining.

And I'd subscribe too, if the price was reasonable, although I wouldn't like to see a subscription-only site.

But I really, really went off the LL some time back, because of, to borrow Rob C's words, the Rottweiller effect. It was just getting too much. I'm sort of getting back into it these days.

I'm pretty sure that if anybody other than The Rottweiller behaved in this way, he/she would be politely asked to leave. Which leads me to believe that actually, like many Rottweillers, his bark is considerably worse than his bite, and maybe we're just losing a lot in translation to text ... and let's face it, his fairly regular explosions are actually pretty damn funny.  And, if you're feeling really evil and just a bit bored, well, baiting the Rottweiller can be entertaining.

But in this particular case I agree with Slobodan and I think he deserves an apology.

Maybe a really good revenue stream would be a PayPal-powered swear box.
Title: Re: "A Call For Support"
Post by: Schewe on November 26, 2009, 04:03:04 pm
Quote from: Jim Pascoe
But then surely a man who rides a BMW R can't be all bad?


It's a BMW R1200 GS Adventure....that's what I ride...

:~)
Title: Re: "A Call For Support"
Post by: Jim Pascoe on November 26, 2009, 04:12:38 pm
Quote from: Schewe
It's an R1200 GS Adventure....that's what I ride...

:~)

Ah, mine is the straight R1150 GS.  Nice bikes, especially when loaded up with some good cameras!
Title: Re: "A Call For Support"
Post by: Rob C on November 26, 2009, 04:28:22 pm
I'm sure that four wheels would be nicer, but then anything is better than a horse.

Rob C
Title: Re: "A Call For Support"
Post by: budjames on November 26, 2009, 06:06:33 pm
Quote from: Schewe
It's a BMW R1200 GS Adventure....that's what I ride...

:~)

I ride a 1983 BMW R100RS (70k miles including PA to CA and back, Canada and a bunch of other great rides and I'm the original owner) and a 1989 BMW K100RS (I'm also the original owner).

Now they mostly sit in the garage under covers. I do ride them both throughout the year but no more overnight trips.

Cheers.
Bud
Title: Re: "A Call For Support"
Post by: Schewe on November 26, 2009, 11:55:29 pm
Quote from: drm
But in this particular case I agree with Slobodan and I think he deserves an apology.


Ya know...reading through all the criticisms posted (edited for brevity);

"I do not like bullies"
"bullying by the Cerberus-in-Chief" )I actually liked this one)
"flamed" customer"
"generated so much vituperation" [ok, have to admit I had to look that one up]
"I am appalled"
"a publishers nightmare"
"c. I believe that personality glitches in the resident Rottweiler were simply, and unavoidably, switched on; better ask Pavlov."
"slips into the gutter"

I thought wow, maybe I screwed the pooch and posted some really "Mean&Nasty™" response to the OP and crossed the lines of even my somewhat limited sense of civility...

So I went back and re-read what I wrote in post one and two to the OP....

Gotta tell ya, I really don't see where I was even rude to the OP let along falling into the true "Cerberus-in-Chief" category ...read what I wrote and parse the language carefully–I never said a mean thing to the guy...

I said: "If true, then I suggest you are speaking from ignorance as opposed to knowledge...if you think you know as much about Lightroom 2 or Camera Raw 4 as I do (and by not getting the vids, that's the presumption) then I suggest you may be wrong..."

Hummm...sorry if that sounds arrogant but I am assuming I know just a bit more about Lightroom 2 and Camera Raw CS4 than the OP and that he might be able to learn a thing or two from me...

Is that mean and nasty? Heck, I even said "I suggest he was wrong" instead of saying he was full of crap...

Yes, I presumed he hadn't seen either of the vids...sorry, that's the way he was positioning the critique. (Actually, I have a sneaking suspicion the OP hasn't upgraded to Photoshop CS4 and therefore isn't interested in any tutorials about it–so, he'll just have to wait till Adobe releases CS5 (which Michael and I are planning for).

So maybe it was my final comment...the "love me in the morning" comment...would it help if I added the smilie (did you or he honestly expect "love")

:~) (see, I added the friggin' smilie, ok?)

You'll note that I made the assumption that he could buy the products in question and if he DID'T find any value, then he could get a full refund (hey, it's a no risk deal–if LuLa won't give him a refund if he doesn't like the goods, I'll cut him a personal check for the difference).

So, then maybe it was my SECOND post on the subject that sent everybody's civility meters into overload...read that post and tell me EXACTLY where I went wrong...heck, I even added the friggin' smilie after the Adobe update schedule...was it the fact that I said he was behnd the 8-ball cause what he bought was the Real World Camera Raw CS3 version, not the current shipping version...)again, an assumption that he's still on CS3–which is perhaps a factor in his assessment of the lack of "new materials" critique).

Is there anything there to apologize for? Really?

As it relates the the Luminous Landscape forum and the overall scrutiny my posts seem to elicit (relative to some of the other a$$holes on the planet), guess what folks? I've been on-line since the early 1980's first with AOL, the CompuServe then various bulletin boards, the Adobe Forums, the Digital Darkroom forum and here at LuLa. I post the way I write and I write the way I think...re-read what I write carefully (I am now a professional writer ya know I'm a co-author of 3 books) and you tell me what the true nature of my posts actually are...no, I'm not particularly shy and retiring...yes, I tend to write aggressively and colorful...no, I'm not boring, yes, I tend to get into peoples' faces...I'm from Chicago, ya wanna make something of that?

I don't take the mentality that I want something from ANYBODY, so you can pretty much forget about me treating you all like a potential "client" and being "nice" to you because I want you to buy something from me. Do, or don't based entirely on your own wishes and desires...but you seriously shouldn't be expecting any particularly behavior from me in that regard...

At this point in my career, there is nothing I can be induced to do for money...I'm retired from advertising photography largely because in order to be successful as an ad shooter, you _DO_ have to treat idiots and a$$holes like they matter. And...they simply don't matter to me anymore...

If you all think I'm a big Mean&Nasty™, you have the option to set the forums to ignore me as a user...I've taken the liberty to do that to some of the other forums members who piss me off more than they post useful content...do that and you can completely avoid seeing my Mean&Nasty™ words to other people (think of it as a "Schewe" censor button).

You can also petition Michael to have me banned from the forums...but if you actually bother to carefully parse what I write, I doubt you'll be able to make a compelling case for banning, I suspect that ain't gonna happen...

So, you can act all offended and try to use the "way I treat customers" as some lame method of behavior modification...but that ain't gonna happen...I find some of the regular members intellectually challenging and not prone to false offense...to the rest of the people who seem hellbent on trying to bring about some sort of sanctimonious pressure to try to get me to "play well with others", sorry, just ain't gonna happen (it's way too much fun being a bad boy).

On a more sober note, I do indeed hope that everybody here in the LuLa flora & fauna have a wonderful Thanksgiving (at least here in the US) because I do have a great sense of gratitude that I find myself in the position I find myself in and can afford to "play" more often than "work".

(and for those who do find me "mildly entertaining"...I'll try to elevate my entertaining content in the future...

P.S. Note, since I'm actually in between books (the OP has so nicely pointed of that LR 3 and Photoshop CS5 won't be too far off) I'm free to spend my time on the forums trading jabs with you all...won't be long till I'll be completely overwhelmed by deadlines and find no time to play...so, make hay while the sun shines!
Title: Re: "A Call For Support"
Post by: jeremyrh on November 27, 2009, 02:30:03 am
Well, that was a "tale ... full of sound and fury"  - I'm sure such a literary giant can supply the rest of the quotation ...

As you say, we can hope you get over your silly attention-seeking behaviour, but it's not likely - to use your own words: "sorry, just ain't gonna happen (it's way too much fun being a bad boy)"; you enjoy being offensive and no-one can do anything about it. That is more or less a definition of a bully. If that is how you want to be, regardless of the impact on your own credibility, or on that of the places you hang out, it's your choice - you're a big boy now.
Title: Re: "A Call For Support"
Post by: budjames on November 27, 2009, 04:30:12 am
So what does this have to do with "Call for support"?
Title: Re: "A Call For Support"
Post by: jeremyrh on November 27, 2009, 04:43:10 am
Quote from: budjames
So what does this have to do with "Call for support"?
Umm ... nothing, unfortunately. It started out with someone suggesting how Michael could tempt people to buy videos, etc., and progressed to Schewe talking about his favourite subject (guess what), and how he was not going to treat people nice, and if they don't buy his videos he doesn't care as he doesn't need the money. Unfortunately I acquiesced in his silly agenda by responding, for which: apologies.
Title: Re: "A Call For Support"
Post by: michael on November 27, 2009, 05:19:05 am
OK folks, time to move on.

Michael