Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: CBarrett on November 20, 2009, 09:58:28 pm
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Ok.... who's shooting wider than a 35mm on their P65+? What covers? I think Rodie's 23 will cover with no movements, and the forthcoming Schneider 28mm is supposed to give movements... but which will cover the top of the world's tallest building? The 23 with no rise or the 28 with rise? I guess that argument is purely hypothetical at this point. How can I decide between the two without spending 12 grand?
Or hell, even the Canon 17 T/S?
What's gonna get the shot?
Hmm....
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Chris, I recommend both the 28mm Mamiya (unfortunately, no shift) and the 17mm T/S. I'm at home and don't think there's anything here shot with the 17 (it's kind of new) but here's something shot with the 28. The 17mm exhibits virtually no barrel distortion, maybe a very slight adjustment needed. Jim
[attachment=18101:ext_1_04...ust_dc6b.jpg]
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Hello Chris,
Look at this "http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=35113"
It is a previous post by Jeff Totaro which he shows the amount of shift that you can get with the 23 HR Rod vs. the 24 Schneider; it looks like you get a lot of shift (6/10 mm) in the 23 mm considering how wide it is. With that being said, I would still get the 28 Schneider and deal with a much less stretch factor unless you plan on only using this lens when looking dead on a building or close to it.
Joe
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Hello Chris,
Look at this "http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=35113"
It is a previous post by Jeff Totaro which he shows the amount of shift that you can get with the 23 HR Rod vs. the 24 Schneider; it looks like you get a lot of shift (6/10 mm) in the 23 mm considering how wide it is. With that being said, I would still get the 28 Schneider and deal with a much less stretch factor unless you plan on only using this lens when looking dead on a building or close to it.
Joe
Thanks Joe, I've seen Jeff's comparison, which is why I would definitely go with the 23 over the 24... tough call about the 28 though. I have rented the Phase 28mm and was amazed at how much more image it gave me than my 35mm, but found it to go soft in the corners. If the Schneider 28 is a good performer it may just be the ticket. Even though the 23 is so much wider, the 28's 90mm image circle may allow you to stitch an image that yields a wider FOV.... then again (as I've found with my 35mm) the useable image circle may be much smaller than the actual.
Now my head hurts.
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Thanks Joe, I've seen Jeff's comparison, which is why I would definitely go with the 23 over the 24... tough call about the 28 though. I have rented the Phase 28mm and was amazed at how much more image it gave me than my 35mm, but found it to go soft in the corners. If the Schneider 28 is a good performer it may just be the ticket. Even though the 23 is so much wider, the 28's 90mm image circle may allow you to stitch an image that yields a wider FOV.... then again (as I've found with my 35mm) the useable image circle may be much smaller than the actual.
Now my head hurts.
All 3 ( 17 / 23 and probably the new Schneider 28 ) will do the job.
6mm movements on P65 with the 23mm isnt that bad. Let's see how will perform the schneider.
They need a new wide which match or surpass the HR lenses.
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All 3 ( 17 / 23 and probably the new Schneider 28 ) will do the job.
6mm movements on P65 with the 23mm isnt that bad. Let's see how will perform the schneider.
They need a new wide which match or surpass the HR lenses.
Hello
I have information from a professional dealer and also from a camera producer , that LINOS-RODENSTOCK will add two more wide angle lenses to the HR DIGARON-W series ,
most probabely 28mm and 23(24)mm lenses with an image circle of 90mm .
That would give enough room for movements , even for bigger sensors than 37x49mm .
Therefore I delayed the purchase of a HR DIGARON-S 28mm lens .
Jürgen
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The 17 T/S offers a fairly large image circle that should accommodate your chip size + some movement. It does, however, distort more than the Schneider/ Linos offerings.
You will need something like the Hartblei Cam (http://www.hartblei.de/en/hartbleicam1.htm) to use it
Yair
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Well the 23HR is certainly a great lens, however i am now even more interested in the new 28 from Schneider. If they really can get a good 90mm Image circle that would be amazing.
If and when RS gives us other wide angles could be discussed to death. It took them quite long to actually ship the 40HR-W and 23HR-S, so I am not so sure if we really see something from them soon. (At least from Schneider we have seen the actual lens 28/43) I would also be quite interested in how much a 23 with a 90mm image circle would cost. Any guess ^^ 10k ?
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The 17 T/S offers a fairly large image circle that should accommodate your chip size + some movement. It does, however, distort more than the Schneider/ Linos offerings.
You will need something like the Hartblei Cam (http://www.hartblei.de/en/hartbleicam1.htm) to use it
Yair,
Do you know anyone who has actually used the Hartblei Cam?
Billy
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I would also be quite interested in how much a 23 with a 90mm image circle would cost. Any guess ^^ 10k ?
And could you imagine how much it would weigh?
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Yair,
Do you know anyone who has actually used the Hartblei Cam?
Billy
It is still in a prototype stage, but it seems to work well and it opens up some interesting options
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Well the 23HR is certainly a great lens, however i am now even more interested in the new 28 from Schneider. If they really can get a good 90mm Image circle that would be amazing.
Is this supposed to be a symmetric or retrofocus design? I don't see how they can make a symmetric design at that focal length with such a big image circle, without having problems with color casts not to mention massive light falloff...
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Is this supposed to be a symmetric or retrofocus design? I don't see how they can make a symmetric design at that focal length with such a big image circle, without having problems with color casts not to mention massive light falloff...
Question: Though symmetrically designed lenses have historically achieved greater quality due to the compromises inherent in retrofocus designs.... wouldn't a retrofocus lens with it's greater distance from the sensor than a comparable symmetrical lens be less prone to diffraction problems with it's angle of incidence being at a much more desirable angle?
No?
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Question: Though symmetrically designed lenses have historically achieved greater quality due to the compromises inherent in retrofocus designs.... wouldn't a retrofocus lens with it's greater distance from the sensor than a comparable symmetrical lens be less prone to diffraction problems with it's angle of incidence being at a much more desirable angle?
No?
To be honest I'm not sure about the impact on diffraction. Traditionally the advantage to symmetric designs is less distortion, but in the digital world that tradeoff has to be weighed against angle-of-incidence concerns with how the light hits the sensor at more of an angle towards the edges of the image circle.
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Ok.... who's shooting wider than a 35mm on their P65+? What covers? I think Rodie's 23 will cover with no movements, and the forthcoming Schneider 28mm is supposed to give movements... but which will cover the top of the world's tallest building? The 23 with no rise or the 28 with rise? I guess that argument is purely hypothetical at this point. How can I decide between the two without spending 12 grand?
Or hell, even the Canon 17 T/S?
What's gonna get the shot?
Hmm....
Large format, 8x10" film, Schneider Super Symmar XL 150mm ;-)
Best regards
sinar444
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Better go for 28mm Mamiya . So far,i've got no complains in using this one...Been using it for years now,better try this one.
Regards,
carlajons
Disque dur multimedia (http://disquedurmultimedia.org)
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Question: Though symmetrically designed lenses have historically achieved greater quality due to the compromises inherent in retrofocus designs.... wouldn't a retrofocus lens with it's greater distance from the sensor than a comparable symmetrical lens be less prone to diffraction problems with it's angle of incidence being at a much more desirable angle?
No?
Absolutely correct. The ultimate ultrawide lens *cannot* have a symmetrical design because of this very fact. Of course, you don't have to use a reversed telephoto construction to move the exit pupil out to a reasonable distance.
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Well the 23HR is certainly a great lens, however i am now even more interested in the new 28 from Schneider. If they really can get a good 90mm Image circle that would be amazing.
If and when RS gives us other wide angles could be discussed to death. It took them quite long to actually ship the 40HR-W and 23HR-S, so I am not so sure if we really see something from them soon. (At least from Schneider we have seen the actual lens 28/43) I would also be quite interested in how much a 23 with a 90mm image circle would cost. Any guess ^^ 10k ?
Since the Canon 17 TS-E has been mentioned in this thread it is interesting to note that it has a slightly larger angle of view than a 23mm lens covering a 90mm image circle.
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Large format, 8x10" film, Schneider Super Symmar XL 150mm ;-)
Best regards
sinar444
Angular coverage of the Super Symmars is not nearly large enough - not even close!
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Ok.... who's shooting wider than a 35mm on their P65+? What covers? I think Rodie's 23 will cover with no movements, and the forthcoming Schneider 28mm is supposed to give movements... but which will cover the top of the world's tallest building? The 23 with no rise or the 28 with rise? I guess that argument is purely hypothetical at this point. How can I decide between the two without spending 12 grand?
Could stitching be useful for your applications? That would cost you at most 1 grant.
Regards,
Bernard
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... but which will cover the top of the world's tallest building?...
from which distance?
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from which distance?
From 300Km...that's a long lens
(http://www.imagehut.eu/images/41085Screen%20shot%202009-11-24%20at%2018.03.35.png)
© Google
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Since the title is "wide.... I mean WIDE" I thought to react.
120x100 degrees undistorted with the 14-24mm Nikkor- 3 images
I am using a nikon D3x for architecture and also the three PCE Lenses Nikon recently made.
Canon just put out two new wideangle TS lenses that seem to be at least as good as the Nikkors.
Especially I was intrigued by the 17mm Lens - Sometimes the view just cannot be wide enough. (I would prefer it without a tilt feature)
The samples I saw on internet showed however a lot of -over the top- perspectives- It showed the end of what is 'realistic'.
Somedays ago I discovered that with my 14-24mm nikkor zoom used at 14mm i can make 'realistic' photograps of 120x100 degrees ( 90 is round the corner) with straight lines using three images shot in portrait mode.
Photoshop connected the three images for me...
To my suprise I got a 48megapixel image that really looks great. The perspective has to be simple- than it still works - it is About 8000x6000pixel
The sides are streched off course but still the quality is amazing.
It only takes a little attribute from Really Right Stuff to shoot the three image panorama. Distortions of the 14mm are corrected with PT-lens. So i concluded that I do not need to carry around an extra TS/ PCE lens on my back- it is heavy enough.
The shot below I made to see if it will turn up realistic or not. The shot needed more view than the 14mm could give in one shot.
I think I cut some of the sides but than it is OK.
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Very interesting... after hearing how many of the mfdb shooters carry dslr kits with t/s lenses as backup or for quick shots, it made me think about buying the PCe's and carrying my D3 more regularly. It bothered me, though, that 24mm would be the widest so maybe I will just get an ultrawide prime and stitch/correct perspective on those very rare occasions.
Interesting...
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Just a short info from the "work in Progress" Hartblei Cam.
I did some shootings yesterday, besides the lots of demoes on the recent canon promo show 2009 germany.
It appears that the Canon 17TS is capable to fully shift 12 mm on our Hartblei Cam UP AND DOWN. Now that would add 24mm of Image height to a P45+ (which I use for testing).
As the normal unshifted image angle is already 125 degr. (diag.) this should give a stitched something close to (I know this sounds really crazy now) 150 degr...........
If you step this down to at least f14 or f16 even the corners are "usable" although I know for the pixel peepers who will start reproing Siemensstars immediately this may not be an option.
On the other hand it´s the only lens on the planet which goes that far.
attached here are 2 samples the Canon TS 17mm shifted up about 9mm (!!!) and the Canon TS 24mm straight both from a P45+ downsampled.
The pics are not very neat or designed, just some demo shots from the Canon tour, but I will upload soon some of the full phaseOne P45+ files I did yesterday night.
Very interesting... after hearing how many of the mfdb shooters carry dslr kits with t/s lenses as backup or for quick shots, it made me think about buying the PCe's and carrying my D3 more regularly. It bothered me, though, that 24mm would be the widest so maybe I will just get an ultrawide prime and stitch/correct perspective on those very rare occasions.
Stefan
Interesting...
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"The 17mm exhibits virtually no barrel distortion, maybe a very slight adjustment needed."
the 17 exhibits a lot of moustache distortion, while the new 24 is really ggod !
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How about custom made body for your MFDB?
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=36322 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=36322)
I will try to make Canon EF lens version, but I don't need more wideangle lens now.(PC nikkor 28mm)
It's very cheaper than Hartblei cam. below US$2K?
and If you use wideangle, focusing is not important becuase of large DOF.
Generally I've shot HC35mm but, I used my custom 28mm body for special interior shot.
Whenever shot, I set focusing to infinity and F8~11.
now, I'm test my CONTAX carl zeiss 85mm F1.4 T*lens with P45 back.
modified for nikon F mounts. contax 85mm has about 59~60mm image circle. so a little, very little vignetts occured.
Image quality is excellent, is comparable HC80mm.
but flange distance problem, It can't focusing infinity now. but about 0.5~10m focusing well. It's enough to my cases.
When shoot F1.4, It has wonderful depth of field view.
I will post detailed pictures with 85mm F1.4 / P45.
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the 17 exhibits a lot of moustache distortion
Your copy exhibits a lot of moustache distortion? Can you post images showing this?
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Your copy exhibits a lot of moustache distortion? Can you post images showing this?
Its unlikely that there will be any signficant sample variation for distortion.
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Its unlikely that there will be any signficant sample variation for distortion.
That's why I'd like to see his images showing said distortion.
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the 17 exhibits a lot of moustache distortion
Well the 17TS and 24TS are the only two lenses that PT lens state there is no need to correct.
You might want to take your sample back to Canon.
Cheers
T