Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: CBarrett on November 04, 2009, 01:47:49 pm
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My .o2... (http://christopherbarrett.net/blog/?p=800)
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My .o2... (http://christopherbarrett.net/blog/?p=800)
Thanks for the review and photos of the setup. Have you by any chance used any of the specific wide angle cameras ( RM3, Artek, Cambo etc. ) in comparison? It would be great to have one system that can handle wide as well as longer lenses like conventional view cameras. This one appears to do the trick.
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Thx for the review, the new Arca is really a nice little view camera. Very interesting.
I don't think there will be 1 camera that will be great at everything.
- A MF system with or without AF for portraits, fashion, editoral.
- A fully geared + all movements view camera for studio stuff
- A pancake cam for architecture, landscape, documentary
- Something in between like this Arca, The Linhof Techno or the Flexicam that do not have all the classics movements on front and back but they are small, most versatile,, for allrounders.
The M line 2 is maybe that cam i was searching for, 3 years ago. A great tool.
(Waiting for some Linhof Techno reviews too, i think it's shipping)
I really hope there will be a market for these well engineered view cameras.
Tom
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Thanks for the review and photos of the setup. Have you by any chance used any of the specific wide angle cameras ( RM3, Artek, Cambo etc. ) in comparison? It would be great to have one system that can handle wide as well as longer lenses like conventional view cameras. This one appears to do the trick.
Thanks for posting your review and pics of your system.
What is widest lens that can be used on the M line Two with a FF DSLR set up?
How can one go between horizontal to vertical orientation with the DSLR set?
In your review you mention that DSLR set up is an accessory add-on, but can this adaptation work backwards if one buys the DSLR and which to mount a MFDB in the future?
Lastly did you purchase this unit in the states? Seems like arca products are difficult to get on a timely basis in the states.
Thanks again!
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Thanks for the review and images, very useful since there's not much info out there about this camera. I've been considering the possibility of getting the DSLR version for now, and later upgrading the rear standard for MFDB once there's a semi-affordable back with live-view at least as good as current DSLR's. So any additional thoughts about the usability with a DSLR would be welcome. For instance, given the way the DSLR appears to mount, I'm wondering if there are any issues with getting the sensor plane perfectly squared up.
What is widest lens that can be used on the M line Two with a FF DSLR set up?
Apart from the current Schneider 28mm Digitar (which is a pretty mediocre lens, using same optical formula as their PC Super-Angulon for 35mm systems, from what I've been able to gather), the widest view camera lens that will work is the Schneider 72mm. Using medium-format lenses with an adapter is something Arca is looking into, the problem is finding lenses that are good enough and can be adapted.
How can one go between horizontal to vertical orientation with the DSLR set?
With an L-Bracket.
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I think if I really planned on using my D3 with it, I'd get something like this (http://reallyrightstuff.com/rrs/Itemdesc.asp?ic=BD3%2DL&eq=BD3L%2D001&Tp=). I have their L Bracket for My Phase 1 645 and it uses a couple pins that sit in recesses in the body to keep it rigidly mounted. I expect the DSLR versions will keep the camera pretty square.
I have heard that the 28mm with focus, as for my Rodenstocks, the 70mm is the shortest I can get to focus.
Honestly, if you're looking at investing in this camera and the digital lenses, you should really be looking at a MFDB to get the most out of it.
-CB
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My .o2... (http://christopherbarrett.net/blog/?p=800)
one day, when I'm out of school and the tuition is finally paid off (my plan is within 3 years of graduation), I can invest in a system like this.
my first passion is portraits (think similar to Martin Schoeller's work). then architecture, and then food/lifestlye.
if I didn't love photography so much, I would study to be an architect. its in my blood (from family of engineers).
but I got the artist in me, and its stuck reaaaaal deep !
btw chris, this kind of absolutely stunning photography is what makes me look differently at digital capture. I'm still a die-hard 4x5 and 6x7/9 guy. Can't let it go.
hybrid workflow/printing though
thanks for posting this, I read it twice, and bookmarked it for my camera 'pon' - the r in the word .
-Dan
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I looked at this at Photo East, and thought it a great stitching option.
the wonderful thing is that you have a ton of stitch movements, way more than any of the pancake Alpa's/ Cambo's, etc,
with the P65+ you can cover virtually full 4x5" in 4 shots.
and ... you can use your own LF lenses, mounted to the cheap lens board just like we used to in film days.
no need to buy heavily marked up lenses by Alpa or Cambo, when you can get to reuse a full range of LF glass. including longer lenses - like 135's and above, with no problems, at far lower prices. no need for each to be in its own helical mount, no need to pay Alpa or Cambo a fortune for each option in your kit.
against that - it is a LOT bigger than a pancake type, more unwieldy, prone to wind etc, and that is an issue on location.
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Alpa + co would argue that the tolerances just aren't fine enough for digital MF - that you need to be within 1/1000ths to be accurate. any truth to this from using this - there is absolutely no play on that front standard when locked at zeros?
and just out of interest - which tripod head are you using it on?
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Alpa + co would argue that the tolerances just aren't fine enough for digital MF - that you need to be within 1/1000ths to be accurate. any truth to this from using this - there is absolutely no play on that front standard when locked at zeros?
and just out of interest - which tripod head are you using it on?
Yes they could argue that IF they weren't all jumping on the tilt / swing bandwagon which honestly throws those tolerances out the window. Those cameras wanna grow up to be view cameras...LoL.
If there is any slop in the M Line 2, its within the depth of focus of the back. No problems getting sharp edge to edge.
I do love the compactness of the plate cameras... I think if you only shoot wide and don't use more than three lenses, they're a pretty good solution.
Most of the plates are beautifully designed, especially the Alpa's, and as a fan of good design I find them soooo seductive.
Oh, and as for heads, I've used Bogen 410's for years now. I'm going to have a real close look at the Arca Cube soon, but the lack of geared pan might be a dealbreaker.
-CB
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I do love the compactness of the plate cameras... I think if you only shoot wide and don't use more than three lenses, they're a pretty good solution.
-CB
good to know. so is there a problem with using say a 120mm or 135mm LF lens on this?
that way a simple 4 way stitch imitating 4x5" would be easily possible.
I'm not a superwide user, so that end of things is of less interest.
though of course what 'wide' is depends on whether you're doing single shot or stitching formats, duh.
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Yes they could argue that IF they weren't all jumping on the tilt / swing bandwagon which honestly throws those tolerances out the window. Those cameras wanna grow up to be view cameras...LoL.
If there is any slop in the M Line 2, its within the depth of focus of the back. No problems getting sharp edge to edge.
I do love the compactness of the plate cameras... I think if you only shoot wide and don't use more than three lenses, they're a pretty good solution.
Most of the plates are beautifully designed, especially the Alpa's, and as a fan of good design I find them soooo seductive.
Oh, and as for heads, I've used Bogen 410's for years now. I'm going to have a real close look at the Arca Cube soon, but the lack of geared pan might be a dealbreaker.
-CB
Have you had any experience of misalignment or focus errors with the 35mm lens, or have you ever used anything wider than 35mm on the camera?
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good to know. so is there a problem with using say a 120mm or 135mm LF lens on this?
that way a simple 4 way stitch imitating 4x5" would be easily possible.
I'm not a superwide user, so that end of things is of less interest.
though of course what 'wide' is depends on whether you're doing single shot or stitching formats, duh.
I carry a 135mm and you can focus that even when using the bag bellows. You could also move to a longer rail and bellows to shoot about any lens made. I do have a 50cm rail and bellows and it's a hoot shooting a 305mm on the P65+.... "You want detail? I got your detail!"
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I carry a 135mm and you can focus that even when using the bag bellows. You could also move to a longer rail and bellows to shoot about any lens made. I do have a 50cm rail and bellows and it's a hoot shooting a 305mm on the P65+.... "You want detail? I got your detail!"
I was under the impression (quite possibly mistaken) that the likes of a P65+ needed lenses designed for digital to take advantage of their resolution. Is the 305 a digital lens design?
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I was under the impression (quite possibly mistaken) that the likes of a P65+ needed lenses designed for digital to take advantage of their resolution. Is the 305 a digital lens design?
The new lenses ARE remarkably better, but the old film lenses are still quite usable, and if you need really really long...it's all you've got.
When I get a chance I'll put up a comparison between my old 135mm and the Digi 135mm.
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I have heard that the 28mm with focus, as for my Rodenstocks, the 70mm is the shortest I can get to focus.
Good to hear that the Rodenstock 70mm will work, are there any limitations using movement with that lens and your D3?
I'm also curious how much shift is possible with the DSLR? I know there's +/- 30mm on the rear standard, but can you actually use that much with a DSLR, or do you get a shadow from the lens mount after 12mm or so like you do with a a regular T/S lens on a DSLR?
Honestly, if you're looking at investing in this camera and the digital lenses, you should really be looking at a MFDB to get the most out of it.
I just don't see the value proposition in the sub-10K backs right now, especially since they could not completely replace my D3x for everything I use it for, and would have to be an additional purchase. The higher-end backs are just way too expensive for me, especially without live-view; trying to get critical focus with sliding backs or range-finders is not my idea of fun. Whene there are some more affordable backs with working live-view (on the LCD, not tethered) that would also be a compelling upgrade in image quality from my D3x I'll consider a back, which is why the M-Line 2's ability to work with both makes it appealing as a long-term investment.
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Good to hear that the Rodenstock 70mm will work, are there any limitations using movement with that lens and your D3?
I'm also curious how much shift is possible with the DSLR? I know there's +/- 30mm on the rear standard, but can you actually use that much with a DSLR, or do you get a shadow from the lens mount after 12mm or so like you do with a a regular T/S lens on a DSLR?
I just don't see the value proposition in the sub-10K backs right now, especially since they could not completely replace my D3x for everything I use it for, and would have to be an additional purchase. The higher-end backs are just way too expensive for me, especially without live-view; trying to get critical focus with sliding backs or range-finders is not my idea of fun. Whene there are some more affordable backs with working live-view (on the LCD, not tethered) that would also be a compelling upgrade in image quality from my D3x I'll consider a back, which is why the M-Line 2's ability to work with both makes it appealing as a long-term investment.
Maybe the CFV 39 Hasselblad might be worth considering for a view camera if Phocus manages decent live-view, (the UK Hasselblad rep. says it's imminent). Not sub-10K but not far off.
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Maybe the CFV 39 Hasselblad might be worth considering for a view camera if Phocus manages decent live-view, (the UK Hasselblad rep. says it's imminent). Not sub-10K but not far off.
Is that tethered or on the back LCD? I shoot landscapes, so tethering to a laptop is not an option. I imagine they'll get there eventually, but I'd like to start using a view camera before then.
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Chris,
Thanks for the review. I had the chance to handle this body and the Rm3d at the NY Photo expo. Both very nice.
The Arca family had one binder with prices on hand and nothing to give out.
Can you share your purchasing experience - the where, who, and any wait of it?
Most appreciated.
Chris G.
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Chris,
Thanks for the review. I had the chance to handle this body and the Rm3d at the NY Photo expo. Both very nice.
The Arca family had one binder with prices on hand and nothing to give out.
Can you share your purchasing experience - the where, who, and any wait of it?
Most appreciated.
Chris G.
From my experience it is always a good idea to give Martin Vogt at Arca Swiss a call, he is extremely helpful and much more into detail than any website could ever be. If you have got any questions regarding Arca Swiss cameras, lens compatibility, dimensions of bellows, rails, movements, he would be the man who knows it all.
Frank
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Thanks Frank. I believe it was Martin at the Photo Expo. I'm sure there is no one better for specifics.
They had a sign up form at the show to receive info, but I haven't seen anything yet. I resorted to taking a pocket camera picture of one page from the complete price list they had on hand.
One can't purchase direct, no? So I'm still interested in user purchase experience from within the US.
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Thanks Frank. I believe it was Martin at the Photo Expo. I'm sure there is no one better for specifics.
They had a sign up form at the show to receive info, but I haven't seen anything yet. I resorted to taking a pocket camera picture of one page from the complete price list they had on hand.
One can't purchase direct, no? So I'm still interested in user purchase experience from within the US.
I checked with Diane, the Arca Rep, and you can email her for pricing as well as dealer info. From personal experience, Rod at Photomark really knows his Arca.
Diane Graham Henry <arcaswiss@aol.com>
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One can't purchase direct, no? So I'm still interested in user purchase experience from within the US.
I have no idea how dealers are set up in the US, but I did of course order my whole camera and lenses directly from Martin.
If you want both, improve your german language skills and have a look at german Arca Swiss prizes, you might want to check out this shop. (http://www.arca-shop.de/index.php?language=en&XTCsid=32e5a627503982f44a8bf2bc5eea6d88)
Ah, the site is also in english... easy...
But anyway, they told me that they were not convinced by the M-Line Two, which would be the reason why you cannot find the camera on their website.
Again the only thing I can recommend is to talk to Martin.
Frank
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Christopher,
I saw your other thread comparing the D3 and P65+ both shot on the M-Line 2 with the Rodenstock 70mm HR, very interesting. Can you tell me a little more about using the D3/M-Line 2 with the 70mm HR? Based on my reading of the specs there's just barely enough clearance for this combo to work, so I'm wondering if there are any limitations on the range of movements you can use with this setup. Can you use the full tilt and shift capabilities of the M-Line 2 with that lens and a DSLR?
Thanks,
Jeff
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Christopher,
I saw your other thread comparing the D3 and P65+ both shot on the M-Line 2 with the Rodenstock 70mm HR, very interesting. Can you tell me a little more about using the D3/M-Line 2 with the 70mm HR? Based on my reading of the specs there's just barely enough clearance for this combo to work, so I'm wondering if there are any limitations on the range of movements you can use with this setup. Can you use the full tilt and shift capabilities of the M-Line 2 with that lens and a DSLR?
Thanks,
Jeff
Hey Jeff,
Yep, you're right there is just barely clearance. Not much movement with the 70 HR. The 90 HR, of course, offers much more flexibility. To be truthful, given the limited functional lens range, I can't imagine the dslr package is going to fly off the shelves.
-C
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Thanks for the info Chris. It sounds like the Schneider Digitar 72mm XL might be a better option to consider. Its image circle isn't quite as big, but it has an extra 10mm or so of rear clearance. The Schneider 72mm's image circle covers 62 degree FOV, so with stitching I could actually cover most of the range from about 37mm to 70mm (35mm equivalent), which would be a pretty good chunk of my landscape work. Of course stitching isn't always practical.
I agree this is very much a niche product for DSLR users. If Arca-Swiss can adapt some MF lenses that might help. But even if they don't I'm considering the system because it would be a 'bridge' camera for me, allowing me to start using a view camera for at least some of my work now, and eventually getting a digital back that would take full advantage of it.
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John,
This might interest you as well.
SK Grimes Nikon --> Arca Adapter (http://www.skgrimes.com/thisweek/8-28-06/index.htm)
-C
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The new Arca camera looks interesting.
Perhaps I should sell my Arca 8x10, 4x5, and 6x9, pay a bit, and get this new camera (which looks like it can still shoot 6x9 film?).
I totally agree that to be really usable live view on the back is necessary- either that or a tethering solution for an ipod touch or an iPad when it comes out. I can live with a rough idea of the composition - but the live view on the 5d2 has taught me something: you need that live view accuracy of focus.
So if you want to buy one - you call up the rep in Chicago or Martin correct? Web sites for companies are so.... uh.....err....... uh...... OK I don't get it. Why don't they have the most basic web site? Is it too complex or is there some sort of cache to not having any info available? Oh well, just thought I'd raise that odd thing about Arca.
Let us know of your tests from the 70mm hr on the Phase back and the d3 camera Chris: it would be interesting to hear.
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The the two reps at the photo expo booth explained to me that they sell a lens plate for Hasselblad lenses. Did I misunderstand what they were telling me?
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This might interest you as well.
SK Grimes Nikon --> Arca Adapter (http://www.skgrimes.com/thisweek/8-28-06/index.htm)
Looks interesting, although as a custom one-off it may not be any more cost effective than getting the M-Line 2. One thing that really appeals to me about the M-Line 2 is that it's considerably lighter and more compact than any other camera of this type that I've seen.
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The the two reps at the photo expo booth explained to me that they sell a lens plate for Hasselblad lenses. Did I misunderstand what they were telling me?
When I was exchanging emails with Martin a couple of months ago about lens options/compatiblity, he mentioned that they were prototyping MF lens adapters. Originally they were looking at Mamiya 645, but only the older Pro-TL manual-focus lenses could be adapted and I was doubtful they were really sharp enough for a high-density DSLR sensor. I mentioned Hasselblad V lenses, since they're reputed to be quite sharp (the downside being they're also very expensive and big/heavy due to having leaf shutters). I never heard back what they decided to offer but if they now have Hassy adapters available that's good news. That can get you as wide as 40mm rectilnear.
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When I was exchanging emails with Martin a couple of months ago about lens options/compatiblity, he mentioned that they were prototyping MF lens adapters. Originally they were looking at Mamiya 645, but only the older Pro-TL manual-focus lenses could be adapted and I was doubtful they were really sharp enough for a high-density DSLR sensor. I mentioned Hasselblad V lenses, since they're reputed to be quite sharp (the downside being they're also very expensive and big/heavy due to having leaf shutters). I never heard back what they decided to offer but if they now have Hassy adapters available that's good news. That can get you as wide as 40mm rectilnear.
You know, I could of sworn that they used to make a lensboard with a bayonet on the front to take 'Blad V lenses... hmm. Can you imagine a view camera with a zoom lens!
SWEEET!
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You know, I could of sworn that they used to make a lensboard with a bayonet on the front to take 'Blad V lenses... hmm. Can you imagine a view camera with a zoom lens!
SWEEET!
That would be pretty neat. Were zoom lenses common in the older mounts? I know I've seen some for the 'H' series, but in browsing at B&H and KEH I haven't seen zooms for the older cameras.
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When I was exchanging emails with Martin a couple of months ago about lens options/compatiblity, he mentioned that they were prototyping MF lens adapters. Originally they were looking at Mamiya 645, but only the older Pro-TL manual-focus lenses could be adapted and I was doubtful they were really sharp enough for a high-density DSLR sensor. I mentioned Hasselblad V lenses, since they're reputed to be quite sharp (the downside being they're also very expensive and big/heavy due to having leaf shutters). I never heard back what they decided to offer but if they now have Hassy adapters available that's good news. That can get you as wide as 40mm rectilnear.
Silvestri have one...
The Silvestri #1150 Hasselblad Lens Actuator is a device which allows Hasselblad's 80mm, 120mm, and 150mm V-series lenses to work with the #1119 lensboard for the Bicam II camera.
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Silvestri has 2 different actuators i think, one longer than the other.
I have one for the Flexicam, you'll find some pictures on the old flexicam thread.
V- lenses are very nice on the view cam, , but the Digitar (and Rodenstocks) are even better;-)))
Tom-
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Silvestri have one...
The Silvestri #1150 Hasselblad Lens Actuator is a device which allows Hasselblad's 80mm, 120mm, and 150mm V-series lenses to work with the #1119 lensboard for the Bicam II camera.
80mm is of no interest though, it's lenses in the 40-50mm range that would be useful. I'm not entirely familiar with the full Hassy lineup, so when I said V-Series I may have misspoke. It's actually the 40mm and 50mm CF/CFe lenses that I was discussing with Arca-Swiss.
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80mm is of no interest though, it's lenses in the 40-50mm range that would be useful. I'm not entirely familiar with the full Hassy lineup, so when I said V-Series I may have misspoke. It's actually the 40mm and 50mm CF/CFe lenses that I was discussing with Arca-Swiss.
I have the 50 CFe, and iv'e tried the 40 CFi IF... you can use this kind of lens with a zoerk or a mirex... i've find that the 40 have the worst distorsion, i've never seen !
The 50 is quite a good lens, less distortion than the 60Cf, and sharp all the way (floating element).
I'm using the 50 on a 503cw with my aptus with great results.
For the Canon, i've found an Olympus 35 PC, not so bad at F11.
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I have the 50 CFe, and iv'e tried the 40 CFi IF... you can use this kind of lens with a zoerk or a mirex... i've find that the 40 have the worst distorsion, i've never seen !
The 50 is quite a good lens, less distortion than the 60Cf, and sharp all the way (floating element).
I'm using the 50 on a 503cw with my aptus with great results.
For the Canon, i've found an Olympus 35 PC, not so bad at F11.
Thanks for the feedback on those lenses. I haven't been able to find much info about them on the web. Sounds like the 50mm may be the better choice.
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I am using the 50mm hassi lens on a cambo ultima 35 (a poor mans Arca Swiss M line two) with a canon 1ds mark III on the back, so far it is my favorite lens for this set up. With stiching I am getting a nice large file with a wide FOV. THe hassi 80 is also very good, I was working with the 40 CF (floating element) but was having a hard time getting edge to edge sharpness at anything but F22, and 22 is not really a great fstop to be working with on that lens, found it a bit soft. I am also working with the schneider 28 digitar (special for this camera, looks like an enlarging lens) it seems to have quite a bit of distortion at the edges. I am planing to get the M line two since it seems to be much more precise and lighter than the cambo, I also like the pin registration system for attaching the dslr body to the rear standard.
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I am using the 50mm hassi lens on a cambo ultima 35 (a poor mans Arca Swiss M line two) with a canon 1ds mark III on the back,
Interesting Michael, it's good to hear from somebody who has used these lenses in the manner I'm considering. Doesn't the Ultima 35 have the same list price as the M-Line 2? I did look into the Ultima 35 until I saw that the bare camera weighed 11lbs, not something I want to be hauling around in the field.
so far it is my favorite lens for this set up. With stiching I am getting a nice large file with a wide FOV.
How much shift can you get with this setup? Also, are you using the 50 f/4 CF or CFi? Does this lens use screw-on filters?
My understanding is that the 28mm Digitar is actually the same basic lens design as the 28mm PC Super-Angulon. I've used that lens on my Nikons and it's far from excellent, especially once you shift. It's most definitely not worth $2K, I think I would still use my 24mm PC-E for wider shots.
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How much shift can you get with this setup? Also, are you using the 50 f/4 CF or CFi? Does this lens use screw-on filters?
My understanding is that the 28mm Digitar is actually the same basic lens design as the 28mm PC Super-Angulon. I've used that lens on my Nikons and it's far from excellent, especially once you shift. It's most definitely not worth $2K, I think I would still use my 24mm PC-E for wider shots.
The 50 CF non Fle isn't as sharp as the others
The 50 CF Fle is a good lens but i went with the Cfi version because i prefer the sync plug...
They all use filters with hassy bayonnet
you can find all the infos there :
Hasselblad V lenses (http://www.hasselbladhistorical.eu/HW/HWLds.aspx)
Considering the 28... the PC super angulon is even better than the digitar, because being the same design, the digitar lack the floating element !
I can't see why you wants to carry an M line 2 in the field for DSLR use...
It's much easier to use a mirex or a zork... it looks like that the best combo is zork with Pentax 645 AF lenses !
(http://www.archinart.com/zboard/icon/member_image_box/1/Mirex%20Pic02.jpg)
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I can't see why you wants to carry an M line 2 in the field for DSLR use...
It's much easier to use a mirex or a zork... it looks like that the best combo is zork with Pentax 645 AF lenses !
A view camera has more flexibility in movements, plus rear shift is more convenient for stitching.
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Jeff, I am using the 50 mm CF (uses b60 filters), with that lens I can get a 9 frame stitch. Center+ 10 mm up and center + 10 mm down x 3 across, with the 28 mm, still a 9 frame stitch but I can only get 5 mm before I lose coverage. I do not know about any design similarities to the 28 PC, but I do find the 28 to be very sharp all the way to the edges, just funky with lots of distortion on the edges that I have to correct in PS, very expensive? yes, but I needed it for a specific job (very small interior space) and could not find another option. I bought the cambo set-up last year used from another LL, forum user. It is a great camera but The Arca was not available then so now I am saving up...
Interesting Michael, it's good to hear from somebody who has used these lenses in the manner I'm considering. Doesn't the Ultima 35 have the same list price as the M-Line 2? I did look into the Ultima 35 until I saw that the bare camera weighed 11lbs, not something I want to be hauling around in the field.
How much shift can you get with this setup? Also, are you using the 50 f/4 CF or CFi? Does this lens use screw-on filters?
My understanding is that the 28mm Digitar is actually the same basic lens design as the 28mm PC Super-Angulon. I've used that lens on my Nikons and it's far from excellent, especially once you shift. It's most definitely not worth $2K, I think I would still use my 24mm PC-E for wider shots.
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Thanks for the additional info, Michael. Very useful. 3x3 stitch sounds promising, that should allow covering a pretty substantial FOV.
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FYI for those interested, I've gotten confirmation from Arca-Swiss about the Hasselblad lens adapter:
Yes we have done first test and are now producing Hasselblad Lens board adapters, I guess they are
available within 2 weeks. Price will be around 200$.
Best regards
Marc Customer Support
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Something I have not been able to extract from the discussion - which focal lengths you can actually tilt.
Comparing the Alpa, we have a limit of 80mm and up for use with tilt. That is a physical property of how the lens and back distances are set. I lust after a tiltable HR Digaron-W 40 or 50.
What I don't understand is whether any adaptations on the M2 would allow me to tilt the shorter lenses while retaining my focus range. Any advice?
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Something I have not been able to extract from the discussion - which focal lengths you can actually tilt.
Comparing the Alpa, we have a limit of 80mm and up for use with tilt. That is a physical property of how the lens and back distances are set. I lust after a tiltable HR Digaron-W 40 or 50.
What I don't understand is whether any adaptations on the M2 would allow me to tilt the shorter lenses while retaining my focus range. Any advice?
Unfortunately, the Rodenstock HR-W 40mm and 50mm cannot be used with the M-Line 2 DSLR. Although they are retro-focus designs, the deeply recessed rear elements mean there is not enough rear clearance to use with a DSLR. It's too bad, these would be very useful lenses if they were compatible especially given the large image circle.
The Rodenstock HR-W 70mm will mount and focus, but doesn't have room for movements according to Christopher.
The Schneider APO-Digitar 72mm has an extra 10mm or so of rear clearance compared to the HR-W 70mm, so it should allow tilts; but I have not gotten confirmation of this from anybody who has actually tried that combo, so at this point it's speculation although I believe it should be possible.
The Hasselblad lenses are SLR designs and should have plenty of clearance to allow tilts, since they're designed for a flange focal distance of 74.9mm.
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Unfortunately, the Rodenstock HR-W 40mm and 50mm cannot be used with the M-Line 2 DSLR. Although they are retro-focus designs, the deeply recessed rear elements mean there is not enough rear clearance to use with a DSLR. It's too bad, these would be very useful lenses if they were compatible especially given the large image circle.
The Rodenstock HR-W 70mm will mount and focus, but doesn't have room for movements according to Christopher.
The Schneider APO-Digitar 72mm has an extra 10mm or so of rear clearance compared to the HR-W 70mm, so it should allow tilts; but I have not gotten confirmation of this from anybody who has actually tried that combo, so at this point it's speculation although I believe it should be possible.
The Hasselblad lenses are SLR designs and should have plenty of clearance to allow tilts, since they're designed for a flange focal distance of 74.9mm.
Thank you Jeff. I understand, though I am not thinking of the DSLR version of the M2. I want to do this a simply as possible, ideally copying someone's existing and proven implementation. Christopher's setup looks good but we do different things. I only need tilt and shift - not swings - so a tech camera would be fine above 80mm and I am about to pull that trigger.
The M2 offers an alternative (to the tech) as a reasonably portable view camera. It would be worth extra complexity if the M2 could extend the range of focal lengths that are tiltable.
You point out that, from an earlier post, it appears that the M2 will let me use Hasselblad lenses / shutters via a new adapter, though I suppose they must be mounted in the Arca boards. Trouble is that I use a 67mm diagonal back. The Hassi lens circles are pretty small from what I can see, and the glass is not necessarily optimal for high res digital backs. Guess the V option makes most sense if you have a library of V lenses and can experiment. Otherwise, I would be buying Rodenstock or Schneider in the hope they will work.
Back to the tech camera vs M2. I know what Alpa does, and that is some of what I want. The M2 might do more of what I want but that "might" word is difficult to deal with.
Aaargh. So many variables. Starting to boggle.
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Thank you Jeff. I understand, though I am not thinking of the DSLR version of the M2. I want to do this a simply as possible, ideally copying someone's existing and proven implementation. Christopher's setup looks good but we do different things. I only need tilt and shift - not swings - so a tech camera would be fine above 80mm and I am about to pull that trigger.
The M2 offers an alternative (to the tech) as a reasonably portable view camera. It would be worth extra complexity if the M2 could extend the range of focal lengths that are tiltable.
You point out that, from an earlier post, it appears that the M2 will let me use Hasselblad lenses / shutters via a new adapter, though I suppose they must be mounted in the Arca boards. Trouble is that I use a 67mm diagonal back. The Hassi lens circles are pretty small from what I can see, and the glass is not necessarily optimal for high res digital backs. Guess the V option makes most sense if you have a library of V lenses and can experiment. Otherwise, I would be buying Rodenstock or Schneider in the hope they will work.
Back to the tech camera vs M2. I know what Alpa does, and that is some of what I want. The M2 might do more of what I want but that "might" word is difficult to deal with.
Aaargh. So many variables. Starting to boggle.
Cunim, If you're capturing with a digi back and not a DSLR, I'm not sure why you would consider the adapted-lens route. I actually doubt that the forthcoming adapter will have a mechanism to actuate the leaf shutters, but expect that it is to be used solely with dslrs and will depend upon their focal plane shutters (I could be wrong). But moreover, why would you consider that route over Rodenstock/Schneider glass? When using the lenses that were built for these cameras, you have tilt available all the way down to 35mm and possibly wider (not to mention greater shift capability).
Also, if you are considering a tech camera and favor long lenses (in the 80mm+ range) make sure you look at the helical mounts of those lenses on tech cameras. They look to me to be far less portable than a comparable view camera system.
As with any substantial purchase, investigate as much as humanly possible. If I can offer any further info, don't hesitate to ask.
-CB
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Cunim, If you're capturing with a digi back and not a DSLR, I'm not sure why you would consider the adapted-lens route. I actually doubt that the forthcoming adapter will have a mechanism to actuate the leaf shutters, but expect that it is to be used solely with dslrs and will depend upon their focal plane shutters (I could be wrong). But moreover, why would you consider that route over Rodenstock/Schneider glass? When using the lenses that were built for these cameras, you have tilt available all the way down to 35mm and possibly wider (not to mention greater shift capability).
Also, if you are considering a tech camera and favor long lenses (in the 80mm+ range) make sure you look at the helical mounts of those lenses on tech cameras. They look to me to be far less portable than a comparable view camera system.
As with any substantial purchase, investigate as much as humanly possible. If I can offer any further info, don't hesitate to ask.
-CB
Thanks, Chris. Yes, further info. Please. Don't know anyone with an Alpa or Arca in this area (Niagara).
Using the Dalsa 60MP sensor in either the P1 or H implementation.
Fond of shorter lenses for the movement system. Think I would use long ones on a DSLR or MF back.
Need to shift, though about 30% each side will be fine given the size of my subjects on the detector.
Make lots of use of 16-24 mm range on a FF DSLR. Think I would like to tilt down to about a 40mm FF645, though that is something I have yet to establish. I have planar surfaces that go from 2m to 15m away. Will use Helicon when necessary, but not a fan.
Suppose I could put a T/S24 on my Canon to experiment but the imaging characteristics are so different and doesn't answer the fundamental question.
Simple. Can I tilt a 40 mm Schneider or Rodenstock on the M2 without either physical or optical interference? Of course, I need to keep the ability to focus at distance. If this is doable, the view camera is a better choice for me. I have no idea why it would be doable with the view vs the tech but hope springs eternal.
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Simple. Can I tilt a 40 mm Schneider or Rodenstock on the M2 without either physical or optical interference? Of course, I need to keep the ability to focus at distance. If this is doable, the view camera is a better choice for me. I have no idea why it would be doable with the view vs the tech but hope springs eternal.
I don't have much experience with the tech cameras, so not sure what their limitations are as far as which ones can tilt and what lenses they can tilt. I know this, though. I was out shooting a building earlier today with the M2. I had my Rodenstock Apo Sironar Digi 45mm on with 15mm of rise and 5mm shift. The top of the building was soft and I was able to tilt to bring it into focus. The right corner was still a little soft and a slight swing fixed that.
I was easily able to tilt far more than I needed with the Arca. On a later shot, I also used tilt with the 35mm. The Apo-Sironar Digi 35mm is really a sub par lens, but even on the P65+ I was able to achieve sharpness across the field with careful focusing and just a little tilt.
The first shot, where I used rise, shift, tilt AND swing displaced any notions I might of ever had about switching to dslr. Not that I'm biased or anything ; )
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The top of the building was soft and I was able to tilt to bring it into focus. The right corner was still a little soft and a slight swing fixed that.
this sounds to my ear like the two standards are not 100% parallel - this is one the biggest difference between the view camera and the flat tech cameras and the main reason why I switched system. I simply had to much trouble getting a even focused image with the 24/35 mm on the view camera.
/adam
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this sounds to my ear like the two standards are not 100% parallel - this is one the biggest difference between the view camera and the flat tech cameras and the main reason why I switched system. I simply had to much trouble getting a even focused image with the 24/35 mm on the view camera.
/adam
that's where the trouble start... the retro focus 40 must be the larger lens that you can use with a view camera without the need of a computer to be 100% shure about sharpness !
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this sounds to my ear like the two standards are not 100% parallel - this is one the biggest difference between the view camera and the flat tech cameras and the main reason why I switched system. I simply had to much trouble getting a even focused image with the 24/35 mm on the view camera.
/adam
Actually, it's pretty common to have use this sort of tilt/swing when using substantial movements with architecture (or anything else). Having standards 100% parallel will cause you to miss focus, since as you approach the perimeter of the image circle the focal plane develops some curvature. Also, the top edge of the building is substantially farther from the lens than the base, so scheimpflug is employed to pull that in, even then, the right corner was yet further away, hence the swing. Have you noticed that all the tech cameras are adding tilts to their systems (which is hilarious considering they were designed to overcome the issue of lenses being out of parallel)?
Schneider and Rodenstock both state that since smaller apertures are no longer a valid solution to solve depth of field problems as they used to be for film (due to diffraction) that tilts and swings should be employed to overcome focus issues.
I think I need to reconstruct this problem/solution and then borrow a Cambo to setup alongside to verify my argument.
Of course, I admit to being a blind follower of the view camera cult on frequent occasion. If I'm wrong, it's a lovely excuse to buy an Rm3d!
-CB
Also, as much as I complain about this Apo-S Digi 35mm... when I remove the back and see just what I'm demanding from the optics, I'm amazed I have any image at all. So Thank You Rodenstock, and Schneider too, for making really excellent glass all these years!
(http://christopherbarrett.net/IMG_0386.jpg)
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I have yet to encounter a situation shooting a building with a 35 or wider where I needed tilt or swing, and the consensus among my colleagues who use view cameras with MFDB is they have yet to use a view camera that can easily properly focus a 35 or wider lens (because of the standards not being parallel).
That 35 rodenstock you have is notorious for field curvature and focus shift issues. If you bought it from Rod I'm surprised - when I tried to buy one 3+ years ago he told me straight out it was a dog.
The HR doesn't have those issues.
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That 35 rodenstock you have is notorious for field curvature and focus shift issues. If you bought it from Rod I'm surprised - when I tried to buy one 3+ years ago he told me straight out it was a dog.
The HR doesn't have those issues.
"as you approach the perimeter of the image circle the focal plane develops some curvature."
it depends on lenses... and that 35 have focus shift problem as well... that was the reason for me to go with the schneider 35 xl along with my 45, 55, 90 and 120M rodenstock
an other reason was that there's more space betwen the end of the rear element and the MFDB with the 35 XL...
The 35xl have a sort of curvature also but no focus shift, and at F9 - F11 being // is the goal.
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Very usefull info here Chris!
Can you comment on one aspect which i am wondering about.
Compared to using a plate camers (cambo wrs/Artec etc..) I would think its difficult use the Arca for stitching, on a regular plate camera you have a larger focusing screen within which you can shift the digital back around, so you can see your framed image on the groundglass, with the Arca the digital back is fixed in its position on the rear standard so tho shift for stitching you move the whole rear standard rather than just the back within the standards frame.
So you cant ever see the full image you plan on stitching, only what the back is capturing.
Is this correct?
Thanks,
Aaron
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Is this correct?
on the arca, the groundglass is 6x9cm...
For stitching with an arca view camera you have two solutions :
Using a stiching back (arca rotaslide or Kapture Group), then you don't move the back frame
or Using the back frame (same as cambo in a way...)
Using a stitching back is indeed the best solution.
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I am such a geek! I took the M2 out to the garage, clamped the rail firmly to the bed of my jointer and pulled out my dial indicator (with magnetic base). I zeroed out the indicator with the rear standard in its center detent. I then shifted completely from one side to the other and then ran the same test with full rise and fall.
The lateral shift showed a variation of .004" across 70mm. Rise and fall showed less than .001" variation. I don't own a stitching back, but just sliding my Kapture Group back and forth showed a variation of .003". I've used the Rotaslide and Phase One's stitching back and neither felt like they were tight enough to best 4 thou.
Just how precise does this stuff need to be anyway?
Now I want an Alpa 12 Max to test!
Thank God I have some shoots coming up! See what happens when I have too much time...
-C
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Just how precise does this stuff need to be anyway?
Didn't Joseph Holmes include something in his two articles:
http://www.josephholmes.com/news-medformatprecision.html (http://www.josephholmes.com/news-medformatprecision.html)
http://www.josephholmes.com/news-sharpmediumformat.html (http://www.josephholmes.com/news-sharpmediumformat.html)
I must confess that in spite of intending to, I never got around to reading through both, so my apologies if the information you are looking for isn't there. I only use a 22MP back which works well with my Contax 645 and Contax lenses. My Hasselblad-to-Contax adapter is out though, but I have ordered a Novoflex replacement. I don't use T/S cameras.
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Didn't Joseph Holmes include something in his two articles:
http://www.josephholmes.com/news-medformatprecision.html (http://www.josephholmes.com/news-medformatprecision.html)
http://www.josephholmes.com/news-sharpmediumformat.html (http://www.josephholmes.com/news-sharpmediumformat.html)
I must confess that in spite of intending to, I never got around to reading through both, so my apologies if the information you are looking for isn't there. I only use a 22MP back which works well with my Contax 645 and Contax lenses. My Hasselblad-to-Contax adapter is out though, but I have ordered a Novoflex replacement. I don't use T/S cameras.
Gosh, all this precision alignment scares me. Simple is good for someone as broadly challenged as I am. I will modify my shooting to work with simple, as opposed to my equipment to work with complex. Alpa order going in today.
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The lateral shift showed a variation of .004" across 70mm.
-C
To be honest I allwas thought that all the talk about 0.01 mm was to much marketing talk and I thought with a smile on the face, that the fussiness about so small tolerances had something to do with the water they drink in switzerland :-) - that was until I got a new back that had a bit different focus plane than the old, I took the adjustable Alpa V adapter and started to shim it - I don't smile anymore at the swiss, only at my own ignorance....... 0.1 mm (millimeter) change the focus a lot and yes you can just see a difference in 0.01 mm - it do not ruin the image at all, but there is a difference..... yes it's too scary
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Hi Chris,
I enjoyed your review of the M-two back when it came out, and wondered if you had any comments on using this vs. using an Arca F (classic, metric, etc) 6x9 for an MFDB. I'm considering one or the other for my H3 back for landscapes. The M-two looks like a nice steady system for the back, but there are times when on 4x5 I like to use rear tilt for foreground emphasis, something I would miss in the M-two. If worse comes to worse, I can always lean the body back and compensate with front tilt and rear rise, but that is a bit cumbersome. I'm considering either the M-two or an F-metric 6x9, either with a Kapture group stitching back, for use in the field (untethered, ideally). I'd appreciate hearing any experiences you've had.
Thanks!
Bill
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Few Questions on the M 2
First, does the swing and tilt on the front standard click into "0" position?
What is the smallest flange focal length for a lens that can be used with no sliding back (just placing the MFDB on the standard)? with a sliding digital back?
Are there issues with using short focal length symmetrical focus lenses (like the Apo 35 xl) with a sliding back on the M2 like there is on the Sinar p3?
Can anyone name a place within a reasonable drive (daytrip) of Philadelphia, PA, USA that may have one to look at?
If anyone could answer any of these (especially the one about the flange focal length) I would very much appreciate it.
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What is the smallest flange focal length for a lens that can be used with no sliding back (just placing the MFDB on the standard)? with a sliding digital back?
you can mount every lenses available without the sliding back !
Are there issues with using short focal length symmetrical focus lenses (like the Apo 35 xl) with a sliding back on the M2 like there is on the Sinar p3?
No, it's ok for the 35XL... except that is quite hard to focus with a ground glass !
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Are there issues with using short focal length symmetrical focus lenses (like the Apo 35 xl) with a sliding back on the M2 like there is on the Sinar p3?
Curious to know about these issues. Are they lens-related only, or do they have to do with the P3 specifically?
Kumar
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I use a sliding back with my 35mm all the time. I'm usually able to hit focus on the groundglass.
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Curious to know about these issues. Are they lens-related only, or do they have to do with the P3 specifically?
Kumar
I was looking at p3 reviews and it appears that with the short flange focal length of the Scheider 35xl, you may not be able to use a sliding back on the p3 with that lenses. This is what I was told anyway (and read), but I plan on taking a trip to Fotocare and check out the p3 and that lens in person.
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I was looking at p3 reviews and it appears that with the short flange focal length of the Scheider 35xl, you may not be able to use a sliding back on the p3 with that lenses. This is what I was told anyway (and read), but I plan on taking a trip to Fotocare and check out the p3 and that lens in person.
The Sinars drive me nuts. I hate the round rail, and the big clamp in between the standards makes no sense at all, much less flexibility in the field.
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Wow, that does not make any sense, thanks for pointing it out. Why would they design a system like that? Well I guess with no obstacle to keep the standards from touching, the M2 would work well with short flange focal lengths.
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The clamp can be repositioned anywhere on the rail, so that's not too much of a hassle. I usually place it behind the rear standard on the 6" rail unless I have to use 150mm or longer lenses.
Kumar
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The clamp can be repositioned anywhere on the rail, so that's not too much of a hassle. I usually place it behind the rear standard on the 6" rail unless I have to use 150mm or longer lenses.
Kumar
Here's the issue I had with Sinar's... if I was shooting an interior with my tripod backed all the way up against a wall and wanted to back up a little bit more, I had to remove the front standard, pull the rail out of the clamp, replace the standard and slide the rail back into the clamp, screwing up focus and composition. With an Arca, Linhof or even a Horseman you can just slide the rail back on it's clamp without moving the standards at all.
I think this is "too much of a hassle." The standards themselves on the P's are beautifully done but the rail system has got to go.
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Rail Clamp II
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I was looking at p3 reviews and it appears that with the short flange focal length of the Scheider 35xl, you may not be able to use a sliding back on the p3 with that lenses. This is what I was told anyway (and read), but I plan on taking a trip to Fotocare and check out the p3 and that lens in person.
It's not ideal, but it can be done. SK Grimes machined a custom recessed P3 board for me about 3 years ago for the P3 for to work with the Schneider 35XL. It's not easy to access the controls, but it will work. The sliding back makes a difference, though. If it is a KaptureGroup sliding back, I don't believe it gets close enough because the KG slider fits into the rear frame of the P3, adding about a half inch of critical mass between the rear flange and the imaging plane. Because the Sinar sliding back actually replaces the rear frame of the P3, that - in combination with the SK Grimes custom recessed board - will work.
Otherwise, you could buy the Sinar digital lenses, which are already housed in recessed boards, but for 35mm you're limited to the 35HR (Rodenstock) with its small image circle. And of course, the extra expense (worth it to some).
Steve Hendrix
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I checked with Diane, the Arca Rep, and you can email her for pricing as well as dealer info. From personal experience, Rod at Photomark really knows his Arca.
Diane Graham Henry <arcaswiss@aol.com>
Thank you Chris. this is my first post here and I'm always available to help with any Arca-Swiss questions.