Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Colour Management => Topic started by: Wayne Fox on November 02, 2009, 06:01:59 pm
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Thanks for the insightful article on the challenges of printing targets from CS4/Leopard and Snow Leopard. The original post noting this problem was last January from Ryan, so it's been a long time coming. I'm glad someone with enough knowledge and enough clout experienced the problem and finally raised some attention at Apple and Adobe, for many of us have been fighting this for a long time. Currently I have not profiled a few papers for my 7900 because I had no method of using an older operating system or version of Photoshop.
I also appreciate the explanation ... it provides a little more confidence in the fix. Before it was impossible to "trust" a target ... now because of the logic of the explanation I'm feeling better about the work around.
So many thanks to Mark and Eric (and all of the others who have helped.) Hopefully it gets fixed someday, after all turning color management off in Photoshop should do just that, but at least I can resume making profiles for my 7900.
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So many thanks to Mark and Eric (and all of the others who have helped.) Hopefully it gets fixed someday, after all turning color management off in Photoshop should do just that, but at least I can resume making profiles for my 7900.
The root problem has been lurking in ColorSync since, well pre-Tiger as I recall. The ColorSync pipeline just "hates" untagged data...even if it's intentionally untagged like in Photoshop. So, various workarounds have been done in previous versions of Photoshop. However, Photoshop CS4 was strictly designed to adhere to the most recent printing APIs...
Regardless of the fact that recent Epson drivers have had the issue exposed, make no mistake about it–the root cause of the problem is Apple's refusal to allow a pathway for "intentionally untagged data".
The workaround works...thank goodness, but hopefully Mark can light a fire somebody at Apple to "fix" this issue once and for finally, all!
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Yep, a big thank you indeed. My i1io will finally start to become worth its price.
It is really comforting to see that Adobe does indeed care about us the way they do!
Cheers,
Bernard
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As a PC user, I have found some weird humor in all the travails Mac users have had to endure. Glad you will now finally be able to profile your papers. I can just see the new PC/Apple commercials: "Hi, I'm a PC and I don't need a work around to work with Photoshop!"
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Big ups of course to Eric for getting to the root problem, on his own time, no less. But this workaround has been circulating for months. I even blogged (http://blogfiftygreatestphotos.com/2009/02/20/leopard-cs4-and-printer-profiling) it back in Feb. And I was pretty sure the workaround actually came from one of Eric's public posts...
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Hi Amadou, yes, the two workarounds are related. There was a similar glitch back when we were trying to print Advanced B&W (ABW) photo targets and nothing came out. I see from your blog that you actually had a better workaround than the one I had originally suggested for the ABW case; I had originally proposed using Printer Manages Colors with Generic Gray / Generic RGB, with the caveat that it would break when Snow Leopard came out.
Also, as I recall, back then even though the ABW target printing wasn't working, the RGB target printing was still fine. Unfortunately now the RGB target printing is necessitating a similar workaround ...
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The issue is not confined to Leopard and Epson drivers. I'm using Tiger and an HP Z3100 with CS4 and I had the same problem. The workaround solved it. I read about it in Amadou's blog a few months ago.
-John
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Hi,
Thanks a lot to all who have been involved! I have a few questions, though.
1) Is this issue specific to Snow Leopard only or also to Leopard?
2) Is this issue specific to Photoshop or does it also apply to other profiling solution like the Color Munki?
Best regards
Erik
Thanks for the insightful article on the challenges of printing targets from CS4/Leopard and Snow Leopard. The original post noting this problem was last January from Ryan, so it's been a long time coming. I'm glad someone with enough knowledge and enough clout experienced the problem and finally raised some attention at Apple and Adobe, for many of us have been fighting this for a long time. Currently I have not profiled a few papers for my 7900 because I had no method of using an older operating system or version of Photoshop.
I also appreciate the explanation ... it provides a little more confidence in the fix. Before it was impossible to "trust" a target ... now because of the logic of the explanation I'm feeling better about the work around.
So many thanks to Mark and Eric (and all of the others who have helped.) Hopefully it gets fixed someday, after all turning color management off in Photoshop should do just that, but at least I can resume making profiles for my 7900.
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So just to be clear, could you please give the work around again for SL and CS4 or point me to the thread. Thank you.
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Solving Recent Profiling Issues With Apple Computers Epson Printers and Photoshop (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/solving.shtml)
So just to be clear, could you please give the work around again for SL and CS4 or point me to the thread. Thank you.
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Hi,
Thanks a lot to all who have been involved! I have a few questions, though.
1) Is this issue specific to Snow Leopard only or also to Leopard?
2) Is this issue specific to Photoshop or does it also apply to other profiling solution like the Color Munki?
Best regards
Erik
Erik, the problem can affect any application that goes through Apple's new print system. This is mainly on both Leopard and Snow Leopard. The issue that John reported with the Z series on Tiger may have had similar symptoms, and the workaround may have solved it, but it was likely a different root cause than the current problem. I have not tried Color Munki software recently and so I can't comment on that. It may work if it's using Apple's older print system (like Photoshop CS2 and CS3 did) but eventually it will break when the new OS versions come out without the older print system.
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What's interesting is that Canon at least with the iPF drivers had fixed this issue as early as Dec 2008. And I haven't seen it crop up since except in the recent LR 3 beta, which is even stranger. Why would Adobe release LR 3 Beta with old code after the goof up in LR2.3RC, especially since LR2.5 and PSCS4 do not have this problem using the same driver.
Seems like there is still a lot of misunderstanding about this whole issue.
Doyle
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1) Is this issue specific to Snow Leopard only or also to Leopard?
Both exhibit the problem.
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Both exhibit the problem.
The issue even goes back to Tiger. Of course LR was the only app using the new printing path back then, but we had to use the ColorSync workaround to print from LR1.31 but somehow it was fixed with 1.4. I would think PSCS4 would have this same problem with drivers that are not written correctly for the new printing path no matter how far back in the OS's you would go? I don't know, can CS4 even run on Tiger?
Doyle
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Thank You.
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Erik, the problem can affect any application that goes through Apple's new print system. This is mainly on both Leopard and Snow Leopard. ....
Let me ask a few questions-
1. Does the same issue apply to Lightroom, and if so WHAT is the work around?
2. Never mind printing profiles, does the same work around need to be applied to printing any photo, on CS(X) and/or Lightroom?
And by the way, somewhat with pique, I'm really glad this happened to Marc. I also learned that Apple is NO BETTER than the evil empire.
AND LASTLY, THE ONLY ONE WHO COMES OUT OF THIS WITH ANY CREDIBILITY IS ERIC CHAN. Guess JS doesn't have the stones he thinks he has. Sorry for the rant, three years of dealing with this "non" issue has its effect.
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I really think the pressure needs to be put on Epson and HP if they have the same problem.
I don't see where this is a problem with Apple or Adobe. If Canon can get it right, why can't Epson and HP. What would it benefit anyone for Adobe or Apple to make changes just because Epson can't get it right.
Is this maybe why the screwup with the LR3 beta?
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Apple could at least offer a way to print without going through the ColorSync system.
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Apple could at least offer a way to print without going through the ColorSync system.
If the drivers are written properly is it doesn't go through the ColorSync system.
Why continue pointing fingers at Apple and Adobe?
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Much thanks to Mark, Eric and Luminous Landscape for responding (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/solving.shtml) to this issue which I reported in January 2009:
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....howtopic=31410 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=31410))
I am now aware of three workarounds for printing profiling test charts using the combination of MacOS X 10.5 / 10.6; Photoshop CS4 and the Epson 7900/9900. All of them have been previously reported.
1. I have just tested Eric's latest workaround on matte paper and compared the results to my January benchmarks. Both Adobe RGB and ProPhoto RGB gave the correct result on matte paper with this work-around.
Hi Amadou, yes, the two workarounds are related. There was a similar glitch back when we were trying to print Advanced B&W (ABW) photo targets and nothing came out. I see from your blog that you actually had a better workaround than the one I had originally suggested for the ABW case; I had originally proposed using Printer Manages Colors with Generic Gray / Generic RGB, with the caveat that it would break when Snow Leopard came out.
2. Although Eric's original Generic RGB workaround broke with Snow Leopard, it will work if sRGB is used instead of Generic RGB. I tested this a couple of months ago and reported here:
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=37353 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=37353)
3. The third workaround is based upon Jason Hicking's original LightRoom ColourSync Utility workaround from nearly two years ago.
I successfully tested this method and reported this back in January:
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....st&p=253973 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?s=&showtopic=31410&view=findpost&p=253973)
[Edit 1: Provided a link back to the LL article.]
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Guess JS doesn't have the stones he thinks he has.
And who do you think went backchannel to Eric and Dave P. from Adobe?
:~)
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If the drivers are written properly is it doesn't go through the ColorSync system.
Why continue pointing fingers at Apple and Adobe?
Why? Because it _IS_ a ColorSync problem...
EVERYTHING in the Mac print pipeline goes THROUGH ColorSync. The problem is there _IS_ no method of bypassing ColorSync's inability to deal with intentionally untagged data...previous versions of the OS and printing APIs where worked around, But in the current print API there _IS_ no method of workaround (which is why the whole thing is broken–BECAUSE of Apple).
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1. Does the same issue apply to Lightroom, and if so WHAT is the work around?
No...because you can't print out a target from Lightroom There is no way in Lightroom of bypassing the ACR/LR color processing pipeline.
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If the drivers are written properly is it doesn't go through the ColorSync system.
DYP, unfortunately, they have to go thru ColorSync. The app needs to give the image data to ColorSync, and the driver needs to get its image data from ColorSync (*). There is no other mechanism. The key is to prevent ColorSync from performing a color transform while it has its hands on the image data. It's rather like sending a package via the post office to a friend, and hoping the post office passes it along as-is (unmodified) instead of opening it up and mucking with it.
Eric
(*) There is an exception, of course, which is the special case of an app talking directly to printer hardware, like ImagePrint and QuadToneRIP.
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Before we get the pitch forks out for Apple, its very, very possible (based on private email conversations I’ve had with some of the engineers mentioned in this post) that the problem is at least partially an Epson driver issue. Some of the drivers will use sRGB as the default profile which you can see in the ColorSync utility. This is not what “other” companies have recommended they do.
Drivers older than 6.5 don’t appear to exhibit this one issue, I can’t replicate it on an Epson 2880 or 3800 but CAN on an Epson 3880 using version 6.5.
A pitch fork for Apple for not documenting what’s going on with the OS is appropriate, I’ll give you that.
Lastly, if you do use Eric’s technique, its very important in the Print dialog of Photoshop to actually select the profile, not the same profile associated with the “RGB Working space” in the popup. IOW, if you assign Adobe RGB (1998) to the target, and your RGB working space in color settings is set to Adobe RGB (1998), DO NOT select “Working RGB” but instead specifically select the Adobe RGB (1998) profile from the popup menu.
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Why? Because it _IS_ a ColorSync problem...
EVERYTHING in the Mac print pipeline goes THROUGH ColorSync. The problem is there _IS_ no method of bypassing ColorSync's inability to deal with intentionally untagged data...previous versions of the OS and printing APIs where worked around, But in the current print API there _IS_ no method of workaround (which is why the whole thing is broken–BECAUSE of Apple).
But yet with the Canon iPF drivers ColorSync does not mess with intentionally untagged data. There does not appear to be anything broken with Adobe - Canon iPF drivers - Apple with LR2 and PSCS4. But I can not say the same about the LR3 beta.
Doyle
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But yet with the Canon iPF drivers ColorSync does not mess with intentionally untagged data.
And how have you reached that conclusion?
Personally, I'm rather disappointed with Apple over this... clearly there has to be a method of passing untagged data through colorsync otherwise the process of creating profiles isn't possible, and to eliminate that path and not provide sufficient justification or documentation is not good sense.
I'm also concerned that all the companies involved have spent so long finger-pointing over this issue (instead of getting their heads together and solving it), that we the customer have been left dangling without a resolution, and unable to effectively use the tools we've paid good money for. Poor show.
It shouldn't have been necessary for the issue to be highlighted on a high profile website such as this before the companies involved would take action ( assuming they even will ).
I applaud Mark and those involved for publicizing this issue, and urge them to continue to use their contacts and influence to keep the pressure on until a proper resolution is made available. This is a major issue... and needs fixing in short order.
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But yet with the Canon iPF drivers ColorSync does not mess with intentionally untagged data. There does not appear to be anything broken with Adobe - Canon iPF drivers.......
Doyle
I believe it is because Canon drivers are not drivers in the same way Epson drivers are drivers. Canon drivers are more like an 'export'.
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And how have you reached that conclusion?
Personally, I'm rather disappointed with Apple over this... clearly there has to be a method of passing untagged data through colorsync otherwise the process of creating profiles isn't possible, and to eliminate that path and not provide sufficient justification or documentation is not good sense.
There is a method of passing untagged data through colorsync, I print all the time with these printers.
I'm also concerned that all the companies involved have spent so long finger-pointing over this issue (instead of getting their heads together and solving it), that we the customer have been left dangling without a resolution, and unable to effectively use the tools we've paid good money for. Poor show.
Some have.
Doyle
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I believe it is because Canon drivers are not drivers in the same way Epson drivers are drivers. Canon drivers are more like an 'export'.
Are you referring the Canon PS Plugin which is an export plugin?
I do not see where the drivers are like an export. There is a Fast Graphic Process option that bypasses the Apple print path which is a god send when printing from Indesign avoiding using the Print as Bitmap work around. But that makes no difference in for example the LR3 beta mess up. In fact the LR3 beta is so messed up that you can not even choose Fast Graphic Process. Really though FGP only comes into affect when passing off vector data which ID does if Print as Bitmap is not selected.
Doyle
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And who do you think went backchannel to Eric and Dave P. from Adobe?
:~)
Sorry Jeff, really. THAT was my feeble attempt to get you involved in this "discussion". Further more, thank you for the following-
"EVERYTHING in the Mac print pipeline goes THROUGH ColorSync. The problem is there _IS_ no method of bypassing ColorSync's inability to deal with intentionally untagged data...previous versions of the OS and printing APIs where worked around, But in the current print API there _IS_ no method of workaround (which is why the whole thing is broken–BECAUSE of Apple)."
FINALLY, someone with stones can tell it like it is. That's refreshing. Now, specifically to Lightroom, DOES Colorsync "muck" up the process when printing photos not profiles, i.e. to the Epson R2880 (DigitalDog-Epson has updated the R2880 Mac driver to 6.62). I (and I assume) others do have CS4 and can follow the work around for printing profiles. BUT, is there a problem printing photos with Lightroom (2.5 or Beta 3) due to this Colorsync "thingy"?
Andrew- the R2880 6.62 driver does default to sRGB in ColorSync. So, hence, my question when printing a photo from LR. Does ColorSync take the ProPhoto colorspace from LR, manipulate it because of the sRGB default and create a problem for the driver and thus the resultant print.
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There is a method of passing untagged data through colorsync, I print all the time with these printers.
Yes and no. The way its achieved is by a null profile whereby the source and destination profile are the same. All data is color managed but if you use such a null approach the result is “no color management”. And here’s the problem this article uncovers and why Eric’s tip works. In the old days, when things worked properly, an untagged target was tagged in the printing system with Generic RGB as both source and destination and thus, nothing happened. The print driver registers a profile with ColorSync and when working correctly, an Epson driver will register the correct profile based on the media setting. With the current crop of drivers that are not working correctly, they always register sRGB, at least that’s what the CS utility shows me for my 3880 but not my 7880 or 4800. Its not totally clear what causes this (is it an Apple bug, an Epson bug or a combo of each)? Based on private conversations and the fact that newer drivers from Epson appear to have this condition, it wouldn’t surprise me to hear its a driver issue.
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Now, specifically to Lightroom, DOES Colorsync "muck" up the process when printing photos not profiles, i.e. to the Epson R2880 (DigitalDog-Epson has updated the R2880 Mac driver to 6.62). I (and I assume) others do have CS4 and can follow the work around for printing profiles. BUT, is there a problem printing photos with Lightroom (2.5 or Beta 3) due to this Colorsync "thingy"?
I think some people have had problems when using non-Epson paper and profiles where the Epson default profile for the media setting can get into the way. There was a workaround for that too I think. But as far as I know the specific and special case where one is trying to print out intentionally untagged data doesn't relate to Lightroom cause you really can't print out color targets with Lightroom.
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Andrew- the R2880 6.62 driver does default to sRGB in ColorSync. So, hence, my question when printing a photo from LR. Does ColorSync take the ProPhoto colorspace from LR, manipulate it because of the sRGB default and create a problem for the driver and thus the resultant print.
As it relates to Lightroom if you print with Lightroom managing color, the default sRGB register is a non issue.
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As it relates to Lightroom if you print with Lightroom managing color, the default sRGB register is a non issue.
Thank you (again)!
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I read also somewhere in the last week or so ( I think it was the release notes for i1Match 3.6.3 for OS-X ) that Colorsync on Snow Leopard does not work with v4 ICC profiles.
Now I know this not related to the tagging issue under discussion here, but is another cause for concern, and frankly reduces my confidence in Apple's commitment to Color Management.
I have a brand new 7880 sitting in a corner that's never been powered up, I'm somewhat reticent to do so as I am not confident the tools I have to profile it and use it effectively will work as intended. I am actually considering printing from the... oh I can barely bring myself to say it... from the dusty Windows XP machine.
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I read also somewhere in the last week or so ( I think it was the release notes for i1Match 3.6.3 for OS-X ) that Colorsync on Snow Leopard does not work with v4 ICC profiles.
From X-rite re i1Match 3.6.3:
"Known issues —
This release of i1Match is currently not able to create correct large ICC4 monitor profiles on the new Intel Macs. It is recommended to create only default monitor profiles on the Intel Macs until a new version of i1Match will be released."
So the i1Match issue only relates to monitor profiling on new Intel Macs.
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I am actually considering printing from the... oh I can barely bring myself to say it... from the dusty Windows XP machine.
That'll work, but you'll have a much better iTunes experience on the Mac. Apparently that's where the really serious beta testing goes.
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I read also somewhere in the last week or so ( I think it was the release notes for i1Match 3.6.3 for OS-X ) that Colorsync on Snow Leopard does not work with v4 ICC profiles.
Now I know this not related to the tagging issue under discussion here, but is another cause for concern, and frankly reduces my confidence in Apple's commitment to Color Management.
I have a brand new 7880 sitting in a corner that's never been powered up, I'm somewhat reticent to do so as I am not confident the tools I have to profile it and use it effectively will work as intended. I am actually considering printing from the... oh I can barely bring myself to say it... from the dusty Windows XP machine.
If for some reason (can't think of any) I would go the Epson route I would use a RIP. I do have a 9600 here that never gets used anymore even though I have a RIP for it.
Doyle
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From X-rite re i1Match 3.6.3:
"Known issues —
This release of i1Match is currently not able to create correct large ICC4 monitor profiles on the new Intel Macs. It is recommended to create only default monitor profiles on the Intel Macs until a new version of i1Match will be released."
That could have been it, though I thought it was a little more serious than that, I'm trying to find the release notes of the new ColorMunki software to check those as well. That aside, if it's just the issue detailed above, then it's not an issue. I felt sure I read somewhere there was an issue with v4 and Colorsync in Snow Leopard.
Anyway, it's off topic, so, moot.
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If for some reason (can't think of any) I would go the Epson route I would use a RIP.
I think you have some unresolved issues with Epson...
Either way, not interested in commercial RIPs. Limited to one printer model and a niche market ( so limited resaleability ) which makes it too high a cost to justify, and arguably not worth the price in the first place. In my own ( naturally subjective ) testing no better in quality over a well setup and profiled printer using decent drivers *cough*.
That said, I'm a keen supporter of QuadToneRIP.
Anyway, we're veering off-topic again...
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That could have been it, though I thought it was a little more serious than that, I'm trying to find the release notes of the new ColorMunki software to check those as well. That aside, if it's just the issue detailed above, then it's not an issue. I felt sure I read somewhere there was an issue with v4 and Colorsync in Snow Leopard.
Anyway, it's off topic, so, moot.
Blue Eye Pro has no problem with creating and SL has no problem using Version 4 profiles. I have not heard of any problem with ColorEyes. And have no problems with version 4 printer profiles.
Doyle
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The issue is not confined to Leopard and Epson drivers. I'm using Tiger and an HP Z3100 with CS4 and I had the same problem. The workaround solved it. I read about it in Amadou's blog a few months ago.
-John
In what way could there be the same problem? The Z models use a separate application (Printer Utility>Color Center) that triggers the target printing and if I'm not mistaken the targets are stored on the printer like the calibration target is. At least I tried to find them in the Color Center map for other reasons and they are not there. The software doesn't even ask to switch off CM as there shouldn't be a channel that is affected by CM. The only treatment it gets is the ink limitation etc of the media preset. For the profile creation process after that there shouldn't be any interference of Adobe ACE or Apple Colorsync either.
Printing from Photoshop and the created profiles used there is another issue but as far as I understand it that should work well with tagged images. If you want to print targets with Photoshop for other profile creation programs then I can understand there is an issue. For example with QTR profile creation.
HP's optional APS does have the targets in the program map and it could use a driver channel that interferes with Colorsync but I have not seen a report of problems there.
Standing at the sideline here as I print from Qimage in a Windows environment with a Z3100 and Z3200. BTW an application where you can switch off CM and then it is really OFF. The way I print the QTR targets for B&W profiles.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/)
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Could this be a situation where it makes sense to leverage diagnostics by recourse to how these processes are managed between Windows XP (or perhaps Vista if it had no issues - I don't know I never adopted it) and the Windows versions of the same Epson drivers versus what happens or doesn't happen in the OSX environment? Perhaps if there were a way of drilling down such a comparison, would it help to throw light on the question of what aspects of the problem may be lodged with Colorsync versus what aspects with the Epson drivers? I ask these questions because there seems to be a view from Jeff that the problem is Colorsync, but a view from Andrew that the driver could also be involved; as well, it has intrigued me for some time now why using Epson professional printers with Windows appears to be more seamless than with OSX, so perhaps some cross-comparison between the technologies may help to confirm where the real solutions need to be implemented.
This episode also raises, yet again, a real question about why these several companies can't sit together and make sure that before they release crititcal software it will at least perform the most basic functions correctly. It's hard to believe that Apple, Epson, Adobe and if the situation were to arise Microsoft rather than Apple, would be hauled before any kind of anti-trust proceeding on such technical collaboration, because they mainly operate in different niches of the industry and could hardly be accused of stifling competition between themselves for conspiring to achieve technical coherence of their various products in aid of all their consumers. Why is this too much to expect?
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The big question why do the Epson drivers handle the call from PS No Colormanagement differently than PS Manages Color. These two calls should give the same reaction in the driver, No Colormanagement. The Canon iPF drivers handle both these calls exactly the same, No Correction.
That is why I conclude there is clearly something wrong with the Epson drivers.
Doyle
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The big question why do the Epson drivers handle the call from PS No Colormanagement differently than PS Manages Color. These two calls should give the same reaction in the driver, No Colormanagement. The Canon iPF drivers handle both these calls exactly the same, No Correction.
That is why I conclude there is clearly something wrong with the Epson drivers.
Doyle
I'm not convinced either contention is correct. No colour management in PS means Photoshop isn't managing colour - in which case the driver is managing colour, unless it is also switched off. These are separate functions in each software. I have no idea what goes on with Canon iPF drivers because I print with an Epson 3800, but if the Epson driver is correctly specified for Windows, it would seem counter-intuitive to me that Epson would be unable to correctly specify the same driver for Mac OSX - they have AT LEAST as much of a commercial interest in getting it right for Mac as they do for Windows given the high percentage of their clientele using their printers on Mac operating systems.
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Could this be a situation where it makes sense to leverage diagnostics by recourse to how these processes are managed between Windows XP (or perhaps Vista if it had no issues - I don't know I never adopted it) and the Windows versions of the same Epson drivers versus what happens or doesn't happen in the OSX environment?
This episode also raises, yet again, a real question about why these several companies can't sit together and make sure that before they release crititcal software it will at least perform the most basic functions correctly. It's hard to believe that Apple, Epson, Adobe and if the situation were to arise Microsoft rather than Apple, would be hauled before any kind of anti-trust proceeding on such technical collaboration, because they mainly operate in different niches of the industry and could hardly be accused of stifling competution between themselves for conspiring to achieve technical coherence of their various products in aid of all their consumers. Why is this too much to expect?
Windows Vista worked fine with my R2880; never had a problem in printing. Upgraded to Win7 two weeks ago and printed fine (though the print dialogue box said the printer was busy when it wasn't but that was cleared up by downloading the latest Win7 driver). Microsoft clearly makes their OS available to printer vendors so that drivers can be checked and updated without a problem. It's not clear why Apple is encountering the snafus that this thread is discussing other than they are not being as transparent as need be. I don't think that cooperation between Apple and printer manufacturers raises any antitrust issues in the same way that some Microsoft practices have. I've been a happy PC user since day one and have not had any problems as things migrated from DOS -> Win3 -> XP -> Vista -> Win7. All the hardware worked as promised.
I guess I'll begin working on my C++ programing skills and apply for a job with Apple to clean up this mess!!!!
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I'm not convinced either contention is correct. No colour management in PS means Photoshop isn't managing colour - in which case the driver is managing colour, unless it is also switched off. These are separate functions in each software. I have no idea what goes on with Canon iPF drivers because I print with an Epson 3800, but if the Epson driver is correctly specified for Windows, it would seem counter-intuitive to me that Epson would be unable to correctly specify the same driver for Mac OSX - they have AT LEAST as much of a commercial interest in getting it right for Mac as they do for Windows given the high percentage of their clientele using their printers on Mac operating systems.
No, there is a separate PS call, Printer Manages Color. This should be the only selection that allows the driver to managing color. All functions in the driver should be available with this call including No Colormanagement.
It has always appeared that Apples desire in the new printing path is that when Application Manages Color or in the case of PS No Color Management that the printer drivers will turn off CM with no CM options available to the end user other than adjustment sliders. I believe any printer driver not following this is not coded correctly for Apples new printing path. Likewise any printer driver that defaults to colorsync instead of No CM is likewise coded wrong.
Doyle
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No, there is a separate PS call, Printer Manages Color. This should be the only selection that allows the driver to managing color. All functions in the driver should be available with this call including No Colormanagement.
It has always appeared that Apples desire in the new printing path is that when Application Manages Color or in the case of PS No Color Management that the printer drivers will turn off CM with no CM options available to the end user other than adjustment sliders. I believe any printer driver not following this is not coded correctly for Apples new printing path. Likewise any printer driver that defaults to colorsync instead of No CM is likewise coded wrong.
Doyle
The way the Windows implementation works is that in Photoshop Print Preview, if you select Printer Manages Colour, then Photoshop is not managing colour. However, within the Epson driver there are colour management options from which the user selects, as to HOW the printer will manage colour. This is accessed either from Page Set-Up in the Photoshop Print Preview or from Preferences when the printer driver is called-up after one clicks on Print.
I don't understand what the first sentence of your second paragraph means, so the rest of it doesn't click in my mind. Either the printer or the imaging application must manage colour unless colour management is intentionally disabled in both, say in order to print profiling targets - the case at hand here. The imaging application and the printer driver should be independently user-controllable, and the operating system should respect that. These companies need to cohere enough to make it happen that way.
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Microsoft clearly makes their OS available to printer vendors so that drivers can be checked and updated without a problem.
I don't think it works that way. A Windows OS has millions upon millions of lines of code and it's proprietary. I believe they make an SDK available which is supposed to allow third party applications and drivers to be crafted coherently. I believe this is standard industry practice.
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I don't think it works that way. A Windows OS has millions upon millions of lines of code and it's proprietary. I believe they make an SDK available which is supposed to allow third party applications and drivers to be crafted coherently. I believe this is standard industry practice.
Correct; I was typing to fast and multitasking. Years ago when Win 3 was the OS, I actually wrote some applications (mainly games for my daughters) and fooled around with the SDK. Fun but not my real life job; future versions of Windows grew in complexity to eliminate the fun factor.
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As I understand it, Apple's OS-X printer pipeline is the CUPS system and Gutenprint (formerly GIMP-print) which are open-source, so the driver writers should be able to get all the information they need on interfacing with that...
My understanding of this problem as explained so far, is that Colorsync will not allow data through it without applying some form of colour management to it, the straight-through path has been disabled, and Colorsync sits between the application and the printer driver, so if you want to talk to the printer driver, you have to talk to Colorsync. This is I believe Jeff Schewe's position? and I think some of what Andrew Rodney has posted supports this, though he theorizes that there may be driver issues also.
DYP claims that only the Epson driver is at fault, because he believes the Canon driver works as he expects it to. With no disrespect to DYP I'm not sure of his credentials or how he qualifies this other than a subjective evaluation, perhaps with a few more reports from Canon users we could build a consensus? It might help highlight the base issue, and if it is Colorsync, Canon and HP users have as much to gain as Epson users. To my mind, if the Canon driver must also be accessed through Colorsync it would therefore subject to the same issue.
The comparisons with Windows printer pipelines isn't really fair or useful I feel, they're very different, Windows can't do 16 bit printing through it's pipeline ( unsure about Windows 7 ), OS-X has 16 bit wide pipelines... they're different technologies and each platform will be written separately with only a few base similarities.
So far the only people who've not really said anything, or been involved, is Apple... I hope you guys are having some luck putting pressure on these companies to look at this.
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Seems this is getting blown a little out of proportion. Some thoughts ..
This problem has existed for a very long time, and workarounds have existed for a long time.
The problem affects an incredibly miniscule number of mac users ... I'm guessing less than one in 10,000 ... probably even a lot fewer than that.
It isn't a major printing glitch. It's not like Mac printing is broken. Normal printing using CS4/leopard/snow leopard functions just fine, and output is fine. Out of all the media being printed by Macs every day on Epson printers, how much of that is actually targets for profiling? And of course this is targets for machines not using a RIP. Saying the affected output is miniscule is an overstatement.
the ONLY thing affected is trying to print an unmanaged image directly to a printer. What percent of mac users actually need to do this? sure on this forum it's pretty commonplace, but outside of our little world it's really quite rare.
I don't know who is to "blame" but to me that's a pointless exercise. There is no conspiracy here, just an extremely rare problem occurring to an amazingly small number of Mac users, with lots of documented work a rounds. My original post wasn't in reference to the work around or bringing this issue to light ... I myself was very involved in the original thread and was probably the first to verify what Ryan was observing. He, myself, and others have been working around this problem for some time. Because the problem affects so few users, no one paid any attention, and unfortunately we don't have any inside pipeline to any of these companies to get them to listen.
The real problem seems to stem from miscommunication between parties as well as perhaps some assumptions. For example, I wonder if any of the OS X and ColorSync engineers are aware of how critical it is to be able to send an unmanaged file to a printer for a few very specialized users. While we can criticize apple, what they have done with ColorSync has actually made it relevant to the OS and their own applications. For example you can actually print from iPhoto now and easily apply a profile to get decent results ... something very difficult to do before leopard. It seems the OS is simply assuming data pushing through it as been "color managed', and if not attempts to do so. For nearly all applications and users this isn't necessarily a bad thing. In this one small isolated instance there is an issue. Obviously using the null profile method tricks the OS. But the entire premise of the Mac is to simplify things for the user, so the assumption, while perhaps problematic in this very rare case, is somewhat valid in the context of the philosophy of the Mac and the Mac OS.
Thanks to Mark some engineers are actually listening, and now understand this very remote issue. With feedback from people like Mark, Eric, Jeff and others, maybe the annoyance will go away. But in the meantime the explanation of why the workaround actually works provides some confidence in the accuracy of the targets. I have tried several workarounds before, but I was never completely confident in them. I found myself always reverting to using an old OS and and old versions of Photoshop to "verify" them ... I finally gave up and just resorted to doing that in the first place. this left me without a good way to profile my 7900. Targets looked OK, but I never trusted them so I stuck with papers that had good profiles available from other sources. I've been asked to test some new papers from a vendor meaning I have to build profiles, I'm a little more confident now that one of the workarounds I've tried before is actually valid ... which means I can actually try them on my 7900
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The comparisons with Windows printer pipelines isn't really fair or useful I feel, .
When I made this suggestion, I didn't have in mind any kind of beauty contest or equity considerations between operating systems - that's not what it was about. It's about seeing for purposes of analysis whether one can leverage information from something that works to understand better why something else with a number of similar attributes doesn't - for the specific intention of obtaining a non-managed profiling target. Whether it would be a useful avenue of investigation or not I do not know - I only asked the question - those who have the credentials in both operating systems can perhaps provide some insight.
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Hi Wayne, I think that's a fair characterization. One of the things I wanted to understand when I dove into the problem was whether a workaround existed that would be robust. Some workarounds (including ones I've used and suggested in the past) are fragile in that they depend on driver versions and/or OS versions (e.g., they work with Leopard, but not Snow Leopard, or the other way around). Other workarounds seem like they ought to work, but don't for highly technical reasons (e.g., if your working space in PS is "Adobe RGB (1998)" and if you chose "Working RGB - Adobe RGB (1998)" from the Printer Profile popup, seems like that should be the same as just choosing "Adobe RGB (1998)" from the same popup, right? But it's not, and you will get the wrong target printout if you do the former).
For folks on the Mac who wish to print targets, it's bad enough that we need workarounds. It would be even worse if we had to say, "ok, if you have this printer, that driver, and this OS version, then use this workaround ... and if you have that printer, this other driver version, then use this other workaround ..."
In other words, if we're going to have to deal with a workaround, the saving grace is to have a single one that can be used reliably and independent of the OS version, printer model, and driver version. (Unfortunately, I cannot claim for sure that the proposed workaround in the article has these desirable properties. But it appears to, and based on the technical understanding of what goes on within the ColorSync pipeline, I believe it does for the time being ...)
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Well, I for one do appreciate a concrete workaround. And thank you Mark and Eric for your time and effort you have put into this problem. It has gone on for a long time. My solution was to leave CS3 on my system and print my targets out from there, even though my work is done in CS4. Hopefully one day it will all be sorted out. Again, thank you for the time you have put into this problem, it is indeed appreciated.
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I don't know who is to "blame" but to me that's a pointless exercise. There is no conspiracy here, just an extremely rare problem occurring to an amazingly small number of Mac users, with lots of documented work a rounds. My original post wasn't in reference to the work around or bringing this issue to light ... I myself was very involved in the original thread and was probably the first to verify what Ryan was observing. He, myself, and others have been working around this problem for some time. Because the problem affects so few users, no one paid any attention, and unfortunately we don't have any inside pipeline to any of these companies to get them to listen.
The real problem seems to stem from miscommunication between parties as well as perhaps some assumptions. For example, I wonder if any of the OS X and ColorSync engineers are aware of how critical it is to be able to send an unmanaged file to a printer for a few very specialized users. While we can criticize apple, what they have done with ColorSync has actually made it relevant to the OS and their own applications. For example you can actually print from iPhoto now and easily apply a profile to get decent results ... something very difficult to do before leopard. It seems the OS is simply assuming data pushing through it as been "color managed', and if not attempts to do so. For nearly all applications and users this isn't necessarily a bad thing. In this one small isolated instance there is an issue. Obviously using the null profile method tricks the OS. But the entire premise of the Mac is to simplify things for the user, so the assumption, while perhaps problematic in this very rare case, is somewhat valid in the context of the philosophy of the Mac and the Mac OS.
Wayne,
While you consider it as a positive development, the auto/black-box/overall color management, I wouldn't like it at all. It asks for far more communication between the OS, applications and drivers than simpler less user friendly concepts. A complex structure bound to fail somewhere like we have seen. While you think just a small group of printer users is harmed by it, I think far more are and they do not follow these lists as they trust the companies' "you push the button, we do the rest" philosophy. There are a lot of cheap colorimeter/scanner profiling packages. There are the profile creation shops where you can send your targets. The crowd that uses QTR or some curve adaptions to print B&W from Photoshop (I have not seen the article mentioned yet on the Digital B&W list). There are the precooked profiles on the paper manufacturer's and distributor's sites. Can you still trust the profiles or the output? We all know this isn't easy stuff to learn; color management, profile creation, and now somewhere someone has thrown in some spanners too.
When a simple amateur prints his phone pictures in streams like that there are 3 companies to make it easy for him, they all implant auto features in their software and they all have to take care that the two other companies' features are neutralised when their feature is active. It is a dangerous scenario, the more when they try to protect the user by making the task as simple as it can be without any feedback on the choices made.
I return to Qimage. In its color management settings Mike added some years ago the auto-assinging feature too. For the untagged images. When no profile is assigned, the EXIF data do not give an indication, then it will assign sRGB as the default (he had AdobeRGB first till I suggested that sRGB would fit better in cases like that, just statistically better and fitting old/odd spaces also better). It can make the wrong guess, that has been discussed. That feature can be switched off. It can get another color space instead of the sRGB default. It is switched off when Qimage's total CM is switched off.
There are three general settings for Qimage's CM: 1/ Qimage CM on, 2/ Printer CM does the job (Qimage CM off, assigned image profile information goes through), 3/Qimage CM off (nothing is done in Q's CM and only RGB data goes through). Changing them does not switch the driver's CM automatically in the opposite conditions. Less user friendly but much more transparent. Consistent for the odd workflows of target printing and general NON-CM workflows like when you do a P2P conversion in Photoshop and feed the image to Qimage. Consistent in the normal workflow. If there is a flaw in your settings like double profiling you can detect that.
There is nothing lost in user friendly software with one extra choice available in the three components of that chain: CM off, CM off, CM off. Like the OFF button on the TV can be user friendly :-)
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/)
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I think we should be thanking Eric for describing a workable workaround. This is the first time I have ever seen somebody devote so much thought to defining what "workable workaround" might mean
Maybe some diagnostic tools should get distributed that allow any user to check whether profiles are being applied in a printpath, and by which application.
Edmund
Hi Wayne, I think that's a fair characterization. One of the things I wanted to understand when I dove into the problem was whether a workaround existed that would be robust. Some workarounds (including ones I've used and suggested in the past) are fragile in that they depend on driver versions and/or OS versions (e.g., they work with Leopard, but not Snow Leopard, or the other way around). Other workarounds seem like they ought to work, but don't for highly technical reasons (e.g., if your working space in PS is "Adobe RGB (1998)" and if you chose "Working RGB - Adobe RGB (1998)" from the Printer Profile popup, seems like that should be the same as just choosing "Adobe RGB (1998)" from the same popup, right? But it's not, and you will get the wrong target printout if you do the former).
For folks on the Mac who wish to print targets, it's bad enough that we need workarounds. It would be even worse if we had to say, "ok, if you have this printer, that driver, and this OS version, then use this workaround ... and if you have that printer, this other driver version, then use this other workaround ..."
In other words, if we're going to have to deal with a workaround, the saving grace is to have a single one that can be used reliably and independent of the OS version, printer model, and driver version. (Unfortunately, I cannot claim for sure that the proposed workaround in the article has these desirable properties. But it appears to, and based on the technical understanding of what goes on within the ColorSync pipeline, I believe it does for the time being ...)
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The problem affects an incredibly miniscule number of mac users ... I'm guessing less than one in 10,000 ... probably even a lot fewer than that.
It isn't a major printing glitch.
This one problem, I’d fully agree. I’m actually pleasantly surprised by the article and number of posts here on this one issue (it shows this site has some pretty advanced users). But this is not the only problem printing. We’ve seen issues where hitting print sent the job into outer space and never to the printer. We’ve seen a problem with Advanced B&W where one has to use Adobe RGB (1998), we’ve seen issues with a small area of red in color space would band etc.
I agree that this one issue, printing targets isn’t a hill worth dying on. But there’s a history of printing issues with the key players discussed here (who I’ll simply refer to as AAE <g>).
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This one problem, I’d fully agree. I’m actually pleasantly surprised by the article and number of posts here on this one issue (it shows this site has some pretty advanced users). But this is not the only problem printing. We’ve seen issues where hitting print sent the job into outer space and never to the printer. We’ve seen a problem with Advanced B&W where one has to use Adobe RGB (1998), we’ve seen issues with a small area of red in color space would band etc.
I agree that this one issue, printing targets isn’t a hill worth dying on. But there’s a history of printing issues with the key players discussed here (who I’ll simply refer to as AAE <g>).
Andrew, I've taken an interest in this thread, because I have for some time been contemplating a general move over to Mac. I'm on Windows right now and I'm actually quite agnostic about platforms - when it becomes incrementally more attractive to switch I probably will, but one of the things which holds me back is the collection of printing issues involving how AAE play together or don't. I have tremendous admiration and respect for how Eric, with his extremely busy professional work schedule, nonetheless developed an ingenious workaround in this particular instance, and for the roles of Mark Dubovoy and Jeff Schewe in getting the issue on the table. The point Wayne made about the relative size of the profile-making clientele *grosso modo* may be statistically substantiated, but to me is not the most relevant consideration. Firstly, I think it may not be so miniscule, but more importantly, whatever the number affected - it is not insignificant, it is a generic function in its own right which deserves to work properly, the same can be said of any other outstanding problems affecting the cohesiveness of the print path between the concerned softwares, and I can't believe these glitches would be unavoidable, if only the companies concerned would make it their business to achieve a higher level of co-operation in the interest of the consumers of their products. This discussion reinforces my interest in how they can be exercised to do this, so going forward the pain can be largely avoided.
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- it is not insignificant, it is a generic function in its own right which deserves to work properly, the same can be said of any other outstanding problems affecting the cohesiveness of the print path between the concerned softwares, and I can't believe these glitches would be unavoidable, if only the companies concerned would make it their business to achieve a higher level of co-operation in the interest of the consumers of their products. This discussion reinforces my interest in how they can be exercised to do this, so going forward the pain can be largely avoided.
Does Apple have this where they won't it, that is the big question? Are Adobe and the printers (drivers) still chasing a moving.
Does Adobe really understand what is going on. With the release of the LR3 beta with the driver once again being forcing to ColorSync instead of no CM, it appears not. Even though LR2 and PSCS4 work correctly, at least with Canon iPF drivers.
With printers (drivers) who knows. I my case Canon has been very responsive, even getting calls back from higher ups on there printing issues. Is Epson responsive to complaints?
With every new update, be it OS, Apps, Drivers one has to keep their fingers crossed, or do what I do and always keep backups and test partitions to test these on.
Will 10.6.2 change things? Unanswered question that not only we the end user have, but I bet Adobe and the Printers have the same question.
What will CS5 bring? Will Indesign, Illustrator and Acrobat have to use the new printing path in CS5? Will the final release of Lightroom be fixed? I hope so since this is the exact same thing as what happen with 2.3RC and 2.3FR.
Doyle
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From my experience both Epson and Adobe ARE very responsive to complaints. I have no experience with Apple so I can't offer a view about them. But all these questions you are raising - perhaps examples of the kinds of things which the companies should be cohering on before we even need to ask about it.
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This one problem, I’d fully agree. I’m actually pleasantly surprised by the article and number of posts here on this one issue (it shows this site has some pretty advanced users). But this is not the only problem printing. We’ve seen issues where hitting print sent the job into outer space and never to the printer. We’ve seen a problem with Advanced B&W where one has to use Adobe RGB (1998), we’ve seen issues with a small area of red in color space would band etc.
I agree that this one issue, printing targets isn’t a hill worth dying on. But there’s a history of printing issues with the key players discussed here (who I’ll simply refer to as AAE <g>).
Andrew-could not agree with you more. I wanted to pen a reply to Wayne indicating pretty much the same feeling. THIS issue of printing profiles may be as small as he indicated, BUT the issues with printing thru AAE is one large bucket of fish. Thank God, the profile issue happened to someone like Mark. Does anyone really think the issue would have been addressed by so many "players" where it not he that pursued it. No disrespect intended, but the most informative (and refreshing) part of this thread has been your and JS's input. I realize neither of you "work" for AAE, but I suspect there is a relationship that could be strained by the intensity of the comments. As one of the resident peans, I appreciate your frank input and hope you guys will continue to carry the water for the rest of us.
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A Little Light
May I shine a little light into the darkness and confusion ?
I too have encountered this problem, but with Canon printers (sorry DYP). I have posted on this topic giving a warning both on this site and the Adobe Photoshop Mac site. I have also been spending a considerable amount of time trying to get answers out of Apple, Adobe, and Canon - with a variety of success.
By far the most helpful have been Adobe US, with Canon UK ranking last for ignoring my letters and then completely misunderstanding the problem. Apple are just plain paranoid.
With Adobe I am in email correspondence with Kevin Connor who has been most helpful (does this mean I got the ‘stones’ then ?!).
Apologies for probably restating what Jeff Shewe and Eric Chan have already said in other forums and posts.
Adobe tell me that Apple have provided new printing APIs (probably from Tiger onwards) and that the new APIs require every file sent for printing to have a profile of some sort attached. Photoshop CS4 (and possibly other CS4 applications ?) implement these new APIs.
The problem arises when Photoshop CS4 sends a file for printing which has no profile attached to it, like targets for colour profiling. Eric Chan’s brilliant, but devious, workaround clearly confirms to Adobe’s statement be true.
This obviously begs the question (which others have also asked): how therefore do Apple expect users to profile devices when it is not possible to print without colour management ?
I have asked Apple this question.
Apple Europe came back with the answer “We cannot answer your question or help you with the issue you have identified”. When I asked why they said “For business reasons.”. However, one splendid person (who has to remain anonymous) suggested posting the issue as a bug on the Developers’ website. I have done this and received two contradictory replies which I am not allowed to tell you since they are covered by a non-disclosure agreement. I can tell you that they don’t really take us any further forward. I have asked Apple if I can reveal their reply since it is clearly in their interests to do so. I await an answer and will post it as soon as I am allowed to.
My conversations with Apple, and to a degree with Adobe, confirm that there is a general lack of understanding of the necessity to print without colour management. It is highly likely that the ColorSync engineers at Apple simply do not understand the importance of this issue. I do not agree with Wayne that this is a minor, and minority, issue. The ability to profile devices and media is key to being able to use colour management.
However asking, and answering, the following questions may give us some guidance as to where the problem lies and who therefore needs to fix it. Apologies, as this may add more fuel to the fire.
1. How many applications, and which, are effected by this problem ?
Currently we know of only one, Adobe Photoshop CS4. It appears, that other applications and profiling software, such as ColorMunki, are not effected. But we need more testing to be sure.
2. How many iterations of Mac OSX are effected ?
Evidence from the internet strongly suggests that it effects Tiger, Leopard, and Snow Leopard alike. It may be that the old printing APIs have been disabled/discontinued in Snow Leopard but there is no clear evidence for this yet.
3. Which printer models and makes are effected ?
Again, from the internet, it appears that Epson and Canon printers definitely are effected (DYP hold off from posting a reply for a minute and read the rest of this). Also possibly HP, but the evidence is scanty. It would not be unreasonable to conclude that all printers are effected but more testing is required.
There is some confusion about the extent to which the printer driver may have an influence on whether this problem is manifest or not. May I draw to everyone’s attention that there is a crucial difference between trying to print untagged (no profile) files without colour management and trying to print tagged files without colour management. In the former case, and with CS4, it will fail as ColorSync will try to impose some form of colour management. I know that DYP may be itching to reply to this, but consider this fact first - that Canon provide software specifically for printing targets for profiling on the Mac, the ‘Color Management Tool Pro’. Could this be because they recognise this problem is, perhaps, unrelated to the driver and so have provided their own workaround ?
I hope this helps clarify things. Apologies if it hasn’t (retires to a safe distance just in case).
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The only thing I will ask is which Canon Printer, what driver version?
Doyle
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Simon, yes, the concerns are well stated. As Mark mentioned in the article, the problem is tricky because it depends on the printer model, driver version, and OS version, among possibly other factors.
CS4 is probably one of the few Mac non-Apple apps that has switched over to using the new Apple print APIs (at Apple's strong, repeated request). This is necessary going forward, e.g., to have any chance at all for a 64-bit Photoshop, and other reasons. (The old print APIs simply do not exist for 64-bit apps on the Mac.) By contrast, smaller and more specialized apps (e.g., the software that comes with profiling packages) are likely using the older print API routines (similar to what CS2 and CS3 did), which would explain why they are not affected. There is generally not a need for such apps to, say, be 64-bit compatible, or take advantage of other new OS features (hardware acceleration). On the other hand, they will probably no longer work in a future OS update, when the old deprecated print APIs disappear for good.
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A Little Light
May I shine a little light into the darkness and confusion ?
I too have encountered this problem, but with Canon printers (sorry DYP). I have posted on this topic giving a warning both on this site and the Adobe Photoshop Mac site. I have also been spending a considerable amount of time trying to get answers out of Apple, Adobe, and Canon - with a variety of success.
By far the most helpful have been Adobe US, with Canon UK ranking last for ignoring my letters and then completely misunderstanding the problem. Apple are just plain paranoid.
With Adobe I am in email correspondence with Kevin Connor who has been most helpful (does this mean I got the ‘stones’ then ?!).
Apologies for probably restating what Jeff Shewe and Eric Chan have already said in other forums and posts.
Adobe tell me that Apple have provided new printing APIs (probably from Tiger onwards) and that the new APIs require every file sent for printing to have a profile of some sort attached. Photoshop CS4 (and possibly other CS4 applications ?) implement these new APIs.
The problem arises when Photoshop CS4 sends a file for printing which has no profile attached to it, like targets for colour profiling. Eric Chan’s brilliant, but devious, workaround clearly confirms to Adobe’s statement be true.
This obviously begs the question (which others have also asked): how therefore do Apple expect users to profile devices when it is not possible to print without colour management ?
I have asked Apple this question.
Apple Europe came back with the answer “We cannot answer your question or help you with the issue you have identified”. When I asked why they said “For business reasons.”. However, one splendid person (who has to remain anonymous) suggested posting the issue as a bug on the Developers’ website. I have done this and received two contradictory replies which I am not allowed to tell you since they are covered by a non-disclosure agreement. I can tell you that they don’t really take us any further forward. I have asked Apple if I can reveal their reply since it is clearly in their interests to do so. I await an answer and will post it as soon as I am allowed to.
My conversations with Apple, and to a degree with Adobe, confirm that there is a general lack of understanding of the necessity to print without colour management. It is highly likely that the ColorSync engineers at Apple simply do not understand the importance of this issue. I do not agree with Wayne that this is a minor, and minority, issue. The ability to profile devices and media is key to being able to use colour management.
However asking, and answering, the following questions may give us some guidance as to where the problem lies and who therefore needs to fix it. Apologies, as this may add more fuel to the fire.
1. How many applications, and which, are effected by this problem ?
Currently we know of only one, Adobe Photoshop CS4. It appears, that other applications and profiling software, such as ColorMunki, are not effected. But we need more testing to be sure.
2. How many iterations of Mac OSX are effected ?
Evidence from the internet strongly suggests that it effects Tiger, Leopard, and Snow Leopard alike. It may be that the old printing APIs have been disabled/discontinued in Snow Leopard but there is no clear evidence for this yet.
3. Which printer models and makes are effected ?
Again, from the internet, it appears that Epson and Canon printers definitely are effected (DYP hold off from posting a reply for a minute and read the rest of this). Also possibly HP, but the evidence is scanty. It would not be unreasonable to conclude that all printers are effected but more testing is required.
There is some confusion about the extent to which the printer driver may have an influence on whether this problem is manifest or not. May I draw to everyone’s attention that there is a crucial difference between trying to print untagged (no profile) files without colour management and trying to print tagged files without colour management. In the former case, and with CS4, it will fail as ColorSync will try to impose some form of colour management. I know that DYP may be itching to reply to this, but consider this fact first - that Canon provide software specifically for printing targets for profiling on the Mac, the ‘Color Management Tool Pro’. Could this be because they recognise this problem is, perhaps, unrelated to the driver and so have provided their own workaround ?
I hope this helps clarify things. Apologies if it hasn’t (retires to a safe distance just in case).
This does effect other applications like PSE6 for the Mac. This link is from Sept. 2008 and if you go to the bottom you will see a response from Adobe Amsterdam. I encountered this problem over a year ago when helping a client that was using PSE6. http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?t...93&tstart=0 (http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=1672493&tstart=0)
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This does effect other applications like PSE6 for the Mac. This link is from Sept. 2008 and if you go to the bottom you will see a response from Adobe Amsterdam. I encountered this problem over a year ago when helping a client that was using PSE6. http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?t...93&tstart=0 (http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=1672493&tstart=0)
Anything that is going through the new print path is prone to this problem if the App, OS, Printer Drivers do not communicate properly. Or keep up with what still appears to be a moving target.
Just a reminder, there is always the ColorSync Utility Workaround, that we used for this problem pre LR1.4, but the CUW will not work for printing profiling targets.
Doyle
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This thread has been quiet for a few days now....
I just got fed 10.6.2 update, which claims to fix a few problems judging by the release notes, but no mention of anything Colorsync. Having said that, it's quite possible a fix might go through without notification. Anyone in a position to test 10.6.2 able to verify any or no changes to the issue?
I'm wondering if Mark has had a response from Apple yet?
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This thread has been quiet for a few days now....
I just got fed 10.6.2 update, which claims to fix a few problems judging by the release notes, but no mention of anything Colorsync. Having said that, it's quite possible a fix might go through without notification. Anyone in a position to test 10.6.2 able to verify any or no changes to the issue?
I'm wondering if Mark has had a response from Apple yet?
It does appear to fix the RGB printing issue with Indesign where the monitor profile was introduced into the printflow unless Print as Bitmap was selected.
As for PSCS4 and LR2.5 everything still seems to work correctly with drivers that are correctly written for Apple's new printing path. Hopefully Apple now has this where they want it so that it is no longer a moving target for the Application and Printer software developers.
Doyle
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This thread has been quiet for a few days now
I'm wondering if Mark has had a response from Apple yet?
Also Simon is still waiting for a response for Apple.
I have also asked Apple to clarify whether the 'old' printing APIs have been withdrawn in Snow Tiger, thus removing the ability to print without Colour Management and, if not, whether Apple have any plans to remove them in a future iteration or update of Mac OSX.
Don't anyone hold your breath, though ...
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A Little Light
May I shine a little light into the darkness and confusion ?
My conversations with Apple, and to a degree with Adobe, confirm that there is a general lack of understanding of the necessity to print without colour management. It is highly likely that the ColorSync engineers at Apple simply do not understand the importance of this issue. I do not agree with Wayne that this is a minor, and minority, issue. The ability to profile devices and media is key to being able to use colour management.
I hope this helps clarify things. Apologies if it hasn’t (retires to a safe distance just in case).
I can assure you that the Apple ColorSync engineers I spoke to are well aware of the issue, have been aware of it for a year, and understand the *necessity *to print without colour management at least as well as anyone else. That doesn't mean they can get much done about this within the structure of the enterprise.
It's also pretty obvious that Eric is doing everything he can to solve the issue, but Adobe has been less than active about sending someone from the Photoshop or Lightroom team to the ICC meetings, at least the ones I attended (I'm two meetings out of sync). Strangely, the moving-picture branch of Adobe is red-hot on profiles. Inkjet printing issues were well known - however they were hitting everyone except Adobe (I was told in private that PS and LR were the only apps that could still make it work on Mac at one point) and one wonders whether that didn't suit them just well, until it ended up biting them too.
As for Xrite, everyone treats them like sh*t and refuses to give them the time of day; they are the biggest goldfish in the teeny profiling pond. The current industry model is the customer shoudl go and buy calibration tools from Xrite and then somehow bolt them onto the display and print path, calibrate things and make the bits and pieces work together. However if the hooks for profiling(Xrite) aren't there then the whole edifice just collapses. If Xrite turned into a open hardware company things would be ok because calibration and gamut mapping could then be a "feature" of the OS or the individual apps, but as long as industry partners see them as part competitors they will keep inadvertently breaking their software. Small vendors like Xrite die if they have to run the treadmill without cooperation, and keep desperately updating products while upstream changes keep breaking them. And each time a user cannot use the Xrite stuff easily the whole color management chain of that user breaks.
The engineers at all these places are nice guys, and all of them know there jobs very well indeed. But the companies' attitudes and ability to play together are not so great. BTW - seen any open Raw file formats from Nikon or Canon ?
Edmund
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It's also pretty obvious that Eric is doing everything he can to solve the issue, but Adobe has been less than active about sending someone from the Photoshop or Lightroom team to the ICC meetings, at least the ones I attended (I'm two meetings out of sync). Strangely, the moving-picture branch of Adobe is red-hot on profiles.
Edmund
Adobe just announced a 10% layoff in staff. One has to wonder what the impact will be on Photoshop/Lightroom versus other Adobe products.
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I followed many of the posts but still unable to figure out a question, IS THE PROBLEM happening only to printing targets untagged using PS/ LR? Because I printed target from Datacolor Syder 3 Print SR on Snow Leopard and didn't notice any problem.
One thing Wayne said I cannot agree more is the problem is not bothering too many among the Mac users. The head of graphic department of my office (an architect firm) just told me today that it is normal the prints on glossy paper come back from a output are normally noticeably darker and with colour different from what they see on the screen. I didn't dare to ask if he know what is colour management.
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I am on Leopard using CS4 and have never been able to print my targets out of Spyder 3 Print. They have always been off due to not being able to turn color management off. This was also confirmed by Datacolor over a year ago to me. Whether using the i1 or Datacolor I have to print my targets out of CS3 and then read them. All profiles work properly in CS4. It is only when trying to turn color management off to print the targets in CS4 that the problem arises.
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Looked at Amadou's blog about the workaround again, now I know what I missed. Fortunately in the EPSON driver, in my Leopard and Snow Leopard era, the default is Epson colour controls but not Colorsync under the color matching, so I had no problem printing the target straight from Spyder 3 print by just choosing No color management in the color mode. In fact I'd never touched the color matching before yesterday.
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Under Color Matching Color Sync is checked but greyed out and epson color controls is unchecked and greyed out. Like I said printing out of CS3 is the easiest fix for me right now.
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I read also somewhere in the last week or so ( I think it was the release notes for i1Match 3.6.3 for OS-X ) that Colorsync on Snow Leopard does not work with v4 ICC profiles.
I knew I'd read it somewhere....
http://www.xrite.com/product_overview.aspx...;SupportID=5082 (http://www.xrite.com/product_overview.aspx?ID=758&Action=support&SupportID=5082)
X-Rite claim Apple is aware and are working on it. I wonder if this was included in 10.6.2?
I wonder also if we'll ever hear anything about these issues from Apple themselves, I'm rather disappointed with their apparent lack of response.
Whilst it's been stated this affects only the printing of targets, and not actual prints using ICC profiles, I have to be honest, my confidence in printing from my Mac is severely dented, I honestly don't know if I trust it anymore.
Incidentally, ProfileMaker 5.0.10 released for Mac.
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I knew I'd read it somewhere....
http://www.xrite.com/product_overview.aspx...;SupportID=5082 (http://www.xrite.com/product_overview.aspx?ID=758&Action=support&SupportID=5082)
X-Rite claim Apple is aware and are working on it. I wonder if this was included in 10.6.2?
I wonder also if we'll ever hear anything about these issues from Apple themselves, I'm rather disappointed with their apparent lack of response.
Whilst it's been stated this affects only the printing of targets, and not actual prints using ICC profiles, I have to be honest, my confidence in printing from my Mac is severely dented, I honestly don't know if I trust it anymore.
Incidentally, ProfileMaker 5.0.10 released for Mac.
That statement by Xrite is a bunch of bull. May be their software has a problem with SL and version 4 profiles. But SL does not have a problem with version 4 profiles, printer or monitor!
In fact I just went back and looked at a scanner profile I created on 11/11 with i1Match version 3.6.2 on 10.6.2 and it is a version 4 profile and works correctly.
Doyle
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I have been using Eric Chan's workaround this quarter in the lab at my school. There are 3 wide format printers here I am trying to establish profiles for as a side project in my wide format graphics course. The printers include Epson Stylus Pro 7600, 7900 & 9800. As far as I can tell the workaround works fine in printing the test target, but in order to print images via Photoshop you would have to convert or assign the printer profile to the document profile to keep colorsync from interfering. If you convert the profile whites are no longer pure IE RGB 255. If you assign the profile the whites issue is resolved, but then you are no longer honoring the original document colorspace. Have to be careful not to save while working with the converted or assigned profile for printing purposes. This seems really unsatisfactory to me. For now my impression is that life would be much simpler to just print with cs3/2. Can always flatten psd files to a png or tiff if you are bent on using CS4. I am a newcomer to color management, so if something I said here is wrong please correct me gently.
I am considering experimenting with printing from a virtual machine. I use VirtualBox, it can access and use the host hardware such as usb devices. It might be possible to use windows or a linux distro in a virtual machine to bypass colorsync completely.
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... in order to print images via Photoshop you would have to convert or assign the printer profile to the document profile to keep colorsync from interfering.
You have to convert, assign will not work (it doesn’t change the numbers, only the definition of the numbers).
If you convert the profile whites are no longer pure IE RGB 255.
Did you pick an Absolute Colorimetric intent?
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There seems to be some miscommunication regarding the scope of the proposed workaround.
The proposed workaround was only ever intended to be used for printing profile targets, for the purposes of building profiles.
It was never intended to be used for printing normal images, once you already have profiles.
It is possible that other, related workarounds are needed to print normal images if using an older printer model with an older driver. It would not surprise me. However, I have not researched it.
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@ digitaldog
I used the perceptual rendering intent when converting document profile to match the custom printer profile. I picked perceptual rendering intent in the print dialogue as well but I am guessing that this is moot since there is no out of gamut colors after the conversion has taken place.
I still gotta wrap my mind around some concepts in color management. Right now I'm struggling to visualize what exactly assigning a profile to the document color space does. The same RGB number would look different depending on the color spaces because some are bigger, others are smaller, and they encompass different spatial dimensions. Pro Photo has yellows that Adobe RGB does not. When I assign the custom printer profile, is that kind of like "Preserve RGB Numbers"? Sorry for bringing this up here, I guess I'm getting off topic. I am just eager for a resolution, but it's also important to me that I understand what's going on with my colors.
@ madmanchan
Are you talking about the Generic RGB workaround? What are some other workarounds I should investigate?
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There seems to be some miscommunication regarding the scope of the proposed workaround.
The proposed workaround was only ever intended to be used for printing profile targets, for the purposes of building profiles.
It was never intended to be used for printing normal images, once you already have profiles.
It is possible that other, related workarounds are needed to print normal images if using an older printer model with an older driver. It would not surprise me. However, I have not researched it.
If you can print a target, you can can also print with the resulting profile: Do a conversion using relative or perceptual intent of any image into devicespace, and then print it using your devicespace workflow. Converting using absolute won't work with normal profiles, unless I'm wrong, because of a white point issue, although I've heard this can be easily fixed by editing the profile. Whether you actually need such a workaround for printing images is a different story; however the above technique is one I use regularly for assembling composite images when testing gamut mappings or comparing profiles.
Edmund
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I still gotta wrap my mind around some concepts in color management. Right now I'm struggling to visualize what exactly assigning a profile to the document color space does. The same RGB number would look different depending on the color spaces because some are bigger, others are smaller, and they encompass different spatial dimensions.
R0/G255/B/0 isn’t the same color in sRGB as Adobe RGB (1998) nor ProPhoto RGB. Same number, different color (because its a different color space). When you assign a profile, you tell Photoshop the scale of the numbers. The number don’t change, the color appearance does because the definition of the numbers, the scale is different.
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well articulated, Andrew.
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@ digitaldog
Thanks for the explanation, very clear. I find it strange that 255 permutation of each color (RGB) has different "scale" in different color spaces.
@ eronald
Converting using absolute won't work with normal profiles, unless I'm wrong, because of a white point issue, although I've heard this can be easily fixed by editing the profile
How would I go about doing this? Make a copy of the RGB 1728 Bill Atkinson reference file and change the RGB number for the first patch? Does it involve editing the image itself in Photoshop?
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@ digitaldog
Thanks for the explanation, very clear. I find it strange that 255 permutation of each color (RGB) has different "scale" in different color spaces.
Think of it this way. If you ask me how far I live from you and I say 1000, you don’t know if I mean 1000 miles, 1000 yards, 1000 kilometers. When we say G255, without the scale (the color space), the number alone is as ambiguous as when I say “I live 1000 from you”.
When Photoshop knows G255 is associated with a scale (sRGB, Adobe RGB (1998), ProPhoto RGB), it can now preview the color based on that info. So the preview updates. The numbers don’t.
Gas in the US and gas in the UK are basically the same. But when I ask someone the cost of gas and they are buying it by the litter and I’m buying it by the gallon, while the gas is the same, the resulting number isn’t because the scale is different.
If you look at the CIE chromaticity diagram which defines human vision, if you plot the gamut of sRGB and then ProPhoto RGB, you see 255G falls in a vastly different location (the scale is not the same). We use the same numbers to define the most saturated green but they fall in different locations within color space. Numbers alone can’t define a color. We need numbers and the scale, in this case, the scale is a color space.
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But when I ask someone the cost of gas and they are buying it by the litter and I’m buying it by the gallon.
G'day Dog,
Ummm-- You mean from a CAT(cracker)or for a CAT(alytic) vehicle?
DesW
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I just made a new color profile for my personal monitor today on Snow Leopard. Is the Apple Colorsync issue only affecting printers, or does it affect other devices too such as displays, scanners etc? Did Apple really mess with colorsync just so that the regular consumer would get better prints out of iPhoto?
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The issue only effects printing profile target files from Photoshop CS4 and certain Epson printers...has nothing to do with any other devices. Although there does seem to be Snow Leopard issues with multiple displays on the same system.
And that has nothing to do with the print pipeline other than all this stuff are primarily Snow Leopard issues and at 10.6.2 still seems to be causing a lot of "issues" for a variety of people (although the data loss bugs seems to have been fixed in 10.6.1 or 10.6.2).
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I just made a new color profile for my personal monitor today on Snow Leopard. Is the Apple Colorsync issue only affecting printers, or does it affect other devices too such as displays, scanners etc? Did Apple really mess with colorsync just so that the regular consumer would get better prints out of iPhoto?
Not sure they messed with colorsync for that express purpose. What they seem to be trying to do is develop a more robust and color aware printer pipeline, with perhaps Aperture being the main target for these improvements. The end result is that all printing from the OS can be color managed and printed with the correct profile - iPhoto, Preview, Safari, etc. This began with Leopard, not Snow Leopard. In that process they overlooked the fact that a very small portion of their users (miniscule might be a better word) need more advanced control. At least they have acknowledged and understand this now.
The issues surrounding Snow Leopard are somewhat puzzling. I'm not sure what changes were made to the printing pipeline, but I thought most of those were done with Leopard, not Snow Leopard. However, SL seems to have introduced a rash of printing challenges for many users, while others (such as myself) have printed just fine with no need for any work around except the now well documented issue of printing unmanaged targets for creating profiles.
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It appears that the problem for many people in doing an upgrade to SL something got messed up. The solution that has worked for many is to use the installer to uninstall the drivers, delete the driver cache file and install and then add back in. In one upgrade to SL I saw the printer was no longer registered with ColorSync. Starting with Leopard that is a must.
Doyle
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It appears that the problem for many people in doing an upgrade to SL something got messed up. The solution that has worked for many is to use the installer to uninstall the drivers, delete the driver cache file and install and then add back in. In one upgrade to SL I saw the printer was no longer registered with ColorSync. Starting with Leopard that is a must.
Doyle
Maybe you can describe this fix a bit more clearly - How does one reset the cache?
Edmund
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Maybe you can describe this fix a bit more clearly - How does one reset the cache?
Edmund
Example of cache locations.
/Library/Caches/Canon
or could be in the User /Users/"you"/Library/Caches folders.
Just delete the cache file or folder.
I don't think that this will fix the issue of coding that does something different when PS Manages Color as opposed to when No Color Management is selected.
Doyle
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The issue only effects printing profile target files from Photoshop CS4 and certain Epson printers...has nothing to do with any other devices. Although there does seem to be Snow Leopard issues with multiple displays on the same system.
And that has nothing to do with the print pipeline other than all this stuff are primarily Snow Leopard issues and at 10.6.2 still seems to be causing a lot of "issues" for a variety of people (although the data loss bugs seems to have been fixed in 10.6.1 or 10.6.2).
This issue definitely effects Canon printers, and probably HP printers as well. Because of the nature of the cause of the problem I believe it has the potential to effect all printers - and that there can be no exceptions.
There seems to be a new (but related) issue with X-Rite's ColorMunki (profiling tool) which renders it incapable of printing targets for profiling without colour management under Mac OSX 10.6.2. See this, and related links:
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=39727 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=39727)
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This issue definitely effects Canon printers, and probably HP printers as well. Because of the nature of the cause of the problem I believe it has the potential to effect all printers - and that there can be no exceptions.
There seems to be a new (but related) issue with X-Rite's ColorMunki (profiling tool) which renders it incapable of printing targets for profiling without colour management under Mac OSX 10.6.2. See this, and related links:
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=39727 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=39727)
I think there needs to be a list made of what printers it affects. Because I know it does not affect the Canon iPF printers at least in LR2 and PSCS4. I do know there is software like the the LR3 beta that does not work correctly.
For you does ColorMunki allow you to make selections in Color Matching or are they grayed out? If they are grayed out to what do they default to?
In your advance guide http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controll...#ModelDetailAct (http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controll...#ModelDetailAct)
Under Advanced Guide > Printing from a Computer > Printing with Other Application Software > Changing the Print Quality and Correcting Image Data > Specifying Color Correction > Printing with ICC Profiles (Specifying an ICC Profile from the Application Software) is this information correct or will your driver not work this way.
Doyle
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Maybe you can describe this fix a bit more clearly - How does one reset the cache?
Edmund
I've recommended this document to a few users trying to solve SL printer problems, and I know it helped a couple of them.
http://www.epson.co.uk/Printers-and-All-In...;articleId=1975 (http://www.epson.co.uk/Printers-and-All-In-Ones/Large-Format/Epson-Stylus-Pro-GS6000/Drivers-Support?target=article&extn=.html&articleId=1975)
After removing all the Epson drivers and resetting the Mac OS X printing system as described in the document, I also recommend you navigate to "MacintoshHD/Library/Caches/" and if there is an Epson folder there, delete it. Restart, empty the trash and then download and reinstall the latest drivers.
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This issue definitely effects Canon printers, and probably HP printers as well. Because of the nature of the cause of the problem I believe it has the potential to effect all printers - and that there can be no exceptions.
There seems to be a new (but related) issue with X-Rite's ColorMunki (profiling tool) which renders it incapable of printing targets for profiling without colour management under Mac OSX 10.6.2. See this, and related links:
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=39727 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=39727)
Simon, I wonder if anyone has compiled a list of printers that are affected. After 4 days of testing I can tell you that it is possible to print perfect targets on the Epson 3800 from Eye-One Match, CS4 and Preview 5. Also the same thing on another 3800 printing with v1.1.1 in ColorMunki. In CS4 it is as simple as using "Printer Manages Color" as the "Epson controls color" is the default option in "Color Matching". And, Eric's workaround does not work on these printers. The 3800s are using driver v6.11. Clearly, there is something different with this combination of hardware/software.
Don
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Hi Don.
Early on in this débacle, when I was still in email correspondence with Kevin Connor and Tom Attix of Adobe, I asked if - as a result of the testing they were doing, and had done - they would send me, or publish, a list of printers with which it was possible to print accurate targets without colour management. This, along with information about the printer driver and the version, and iteration of OSX - and any other relevant details.
This they have not done, despite repeated and polite requests.
It is reasonable to surmise, therefore, that they have been unable to find a sufficiently robust workaround with CS4, and that this effects ALL printers.
I am interested in your workaround. I recall that when I tried it with OSX 10.4.11 (Tiger) the targets were printed with some patches clipped (patches with different colours were printed identically*) and thus were not suitable for profiling. I will, however, try it again to be absolutely sure.
* I used a target printed from PS CS2 as a benchmark.
The problem with diagnosing this particular problem is that it is necessary to do the tests extremely meticulously, carefully documenting what settings are used, and use a known benchmark print to compare results with. Some correspondents on this website have clearly not done this and their results, and comments, only muddy the water - unfortunately (I am not suggesting for one moment that you are one of these).
The whole situation is an awful mess ! This is much is clear.
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The problem with diagnosing this particular problem is that it is necessary to do the tests extremely meticulously, carefully documenting what settings are used, and use a known benchmark print to compare results with. Some correspondents on this website have clearly not done this and their results, and comments, only muddy the water - unfortunately (I am not suggesting for one moment that you are one of these).
The whole situation is an awful mess ! This is much is clear.
Simon
Why do you not answer my questions, which makes it appear that you are one of these.
In my working with Canon and the documentation that I have pointed you to I think you should be able to get this working correctly. Or maybe I am mistaken and you do not print with Canon printers.
Doyle
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Hi Don.
Early on in this débacle, when I was still in email correspondence with Kevin Connor and Tom Attix of Adobe, I asked if - as a result of the testing they were doing, and had done - they would send me, or publish, a list of printers with which it was possible to print accurate targets without colour management. This, along with information about the printer driver and the version, and iteration of OSX - and any other relevant details.
This they have not done, despite repeated and polite requests.
It is reasonable to surmise, therefore, that they have been unable to find a sufficiently robust workaround with CS4, and that this effects ALL printers.
............................
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Why knock on Adobe's door about this? What makes you think it's their problem? From all I've read here - and with considerable interest in case I decide to change my O/S - it would appear to me that this is an Apple Computer Inc. problem which they need to resolve. Now interestingly, Wayne Fox says they've recognized the issue and Jeff Schewe says a number of other issues have been addressed in a "dot" release or two of Snow Leopard, so perhaps from hereon it is just a matter of waiting for the printer target "no color management" issue to be resolved and all will be well?
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Why knock on Adobe's door about this? What makes you think it's their problem? From all I've read here - and with considerable interest in case I decide to change my O/S - it would appear to me that this is an Apple Computer Inc. problem which they need to resolve. Now interestingly, Wayne Fox says they've recognized the issue and Jeff Schewe says a number of other issues have been addressed in a "dot" release or two of Snow Leopard, so perhaps from hereon it is just a matter of waiting for the printer target "no color management" issue to be resolved and all will be well?
For a lot of us this issue has been resolved. For others it could be and Don Cone is a prime example. For others it would appear they have more interest in complaining than resolving.
Doyle
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For a lot of us this issue has been resolved. For others it could be and Don Cone is a prime example. For others it would appear they have more interest in complaining than resolving.
Doyle
When you say "it" has been resolved - do you mean by Eric Chan's (generously provided) workaround, or generically for all printers and drivers at the level of the O/S itself?
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When you say "it" has been resolved - do you mean by Eric Chan's (generously provided) workaround, or generically for all printers and drivers at the level of the O/S itself?
All printers and drivers no I don't believe so as some drivers still appear to have coding issues. But yes there are drivers that when installed properly work correctly. I will again point out that there are previous posts here and elsewhere of proper procedures to do this. I believe SL presents maintenance challenges that also contribute to this, such as cleaning cache files when changes are made and driver installs that for what ever reason do not properly register with ColorSync. And I have personally seen where permissions got messed up and could not be repaired creating a need to uninstall drivers and then reinstall. All of these issue can happen in previous OSs but SL seems to be more prone to this.
Also it has been widely reported that upgrades to OSs instead of a clean installs cause numerous problems with printer drivers. In most cases a complete uninstall, delete cache files and reinstall of the printer drivers fixed these problems. This is exactly what Epson is suggesting as well though I believe they have missed the deleting cache part.
As for Eric Chan's (generously provided) workaround, no this is not what I am talking about. I am referring to correctly working drivers. Eric workaround just like the ColorSync Utility workaround may be necessary for drivers that cannot function correctly. Also any application that uses the old printing path and that you can turn off color management can be used to to print unmanaged targets.
Doyle
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Doyle, thanks for that response. It raises an interesting industry coordination issue which may be worth some discussion. To use a musical analogy, we have a conductor, the players and the audience. Let us say the OS is the conductor, the printer drivers are the players and the customers are the audience. In the final analysis the audience needs to be satisfied with the performance. This means that the orchestra needs to have its act together. In the musical world, the conductor changes some details of the performance and the players are expected to fall in line and perform. All that is supposed to happen during rehearsals, so to the greatest extent possible there are no surprises on stage during the performance, though such is known to happen. Now taking it back to operating systems and printer drivers, one really wonders why this particular orchestra seems to be doing too little fine-tuning during rehearsal and and too much during the performance, to the detriment of the customers. I might add, this is not the first time or the only context in which there have been printing issues with new software releases.
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Hi Don.
Early on in this débacle, when I was still in email correspondence with Kevin Connor and Tom Attix of Adobe, I asked if - as a result of the testing they were doing, and had done - they would send me, or publish, a list of printers with which it was possible to print accurate targets without colour management. This, along with information about the printer driver and the version, and iteration of OSX - and any other relevant details.
This they have not done, despite repeated and polite requests.
It is reasonable to surmise, therefore, that they have been unable to find a sufficiently robust workaround with CS4, and that this effects ALL printers.
I am interested in your workaround. I recall that when I tried it with OSX 10.4.11 (Tiger) the targets were printed with some patches clipped (patches with different colours were printed identically*) and thus were not suitable for profiling. I will, however, try it again to be absolutely sure.
* I used a target printed from PS CS2 as a benchmark.
The problem with diagnosing this particular problem is that it is necessary to do the tests extremely meticulously, carefully documenting what settings are used, and use a known benchmark print to compare results with. Some correspondents on this website have clearly not done this and their results, and comments, only muddy the water - unfortunately (I am not suggesting for one moment that you are one of these).
The whole situation is an awful mess ! This is much is clear.
Thanks for the response Simon. I'm not surprised that you have not heard back from Adobe. Adobe can't be in the position of pointing fingers at other vendors so information on testing is not shared. This community is the best source of information on the problem because we have a diverse hardware/software base to draw from. You are correct that gathering data needs to be done meticulously but if we share what works as well as what does not work we would have information that is invaluable to developers. They do read these forums. That is why I wanted to take the time, paper and ink to find out what DOES work.
What I did was not a "workaround" it was simply setting up each application to print bypassing Colorsync. I was able to do that successfully printing Eye-One targets. The printer driver and printer responded correctly and I got good target prints. But, others can't do that and for them Eric's "workaround" fixes the problem. That should be a BIG clue. As I understand it, Eric uses Colorsync to apply a null correction to fix the problem. The "workaround" does not work on my system. So, what is different? The OS is the same, the applications are the same but the printers and drivers are not. Doyle has been hammering on this consistently and frankly, it makes sense. He is also correct regarding corruption of cache files and I believe that re-installing ColorMunki from the original DVD and then updating to the current version for Snow Leopard is what fixed my friends problem with ColorMunki on the Epson Pro3800.
If more users would report their successes we would be a lot farther down the road to a solution of the problem.
Don
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Doyle, thanks for that response. It raises an interesting industry coordination issue which may be worth some discussion. To use a musical analogy, we have a conductor, the players and the audience. Let us say the OS is the conductor, the printer drivers are the players and the customers are the audience. In the final analysis the audience needs to be satisfied with the performance. This means that the orchestra needs to have its act together. In the musical world, the conductor changes some details of the performance and the players are expected to fall in line and perform. All that is supposed to happen during rehearsals, so to the greatest extent possible there are no surprises on stage during the performance, though such is known to happen. Now taking it back to operating systems and printer drivers, one really wonders why this particular orchestra seems to be doing too little fine-tuning during rehearsal and and too much during the performance, to the detriment of the customers. I might add, this is not the first time or the only context in which there have been printing issues with new software releases.
Mark, that is a really great analogy.
And, I might add all three need to have some level of intelligence, and be willing to understand what is going with all their partners.
Doyle
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Why knock on Adobe's door about this? What makes you think it's their problem? From all I've read here - and with considerable interest in case I decide to change my O/S - it would appear to me that this is an Apple Computer Inc. problem which they need to resolve. Now interestingly, Wayne Fox says they've recognized the issue and Jeff Schewe says a number of other issues have been addressed in a "dot" release or two of Snow Leopard, so perhaps from hereon it is just a matter of waiting for the printer target "no color management" issue to be resolved and all will be well?
In regards to printing targets (the main issue of this thread) I'm not sure Apple is the primary cause. Additionally, the issue has existed since Leopard (it was not introduced with Snow leopard although many of us were hopeful SL would fix it). Because of Mark's (and others) efforts at least some engineers at Apple are now aware of the importance of insuring there is a non-mangaged path to print targets, but it is still the driver's responsibility to manage things correctly to achieve this result.
As far as wider problems with Snow Leopard and Epson printers, I believe most users experiencing problems with Snow Leopard are getting bit by numerous upgrades and lots of "stuff" left laying around from previous OS X and Epson driver installs. Several have reported that fully deleting all Epson drivers and cache files followed by a reinstall of the drivers resolved their problems. Also I know of at least one person who did a fresh install of SL on a separate partition, booted from that, installed the drivers and printed fine. There also appears to be some users that skipped Leopard, and are now moving to snow Leopard, so they are experiencing the same issues many of us went through quite some time ago.
The issue is puzzling to say the least because many users are having no problems whatsoever. As I've mentioned elsewhere, I did a simple install of Snow Leopard, and continued printing without any problems to my 7900. I also have had no problems printing to my 3800 and my 11880. What's different about my system? I'm not sure ... I wish I knew.
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I also have had no problems printing to an epson 9800 and a 3800. I continue to print my targets out of CS3 for my work around even though CS4 is what I use for everything else. Just seems the easiest thing to do right now. As you and others have stated the printing of targets has been an issue for a long time, hopefully some day it will get resolved.
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Several have reported that fully deleting all Epson drivers and cache files followed by a reinstall of the drivers resolved their problems.
Wayne- how does one delete appropriate cache files from 10.6.2? Where are they located. Search has proved fruitless. Thanks!
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I'm using a Canon iPF6100 with SL and print with custom icc profiles via ImageNest 2.0. If I use the printer CM/colorsync route I get prints with a light gray background. Using the Vendor CM option and no color correction prints are fine. Screen grabs for the latter workflow shown below.
(http://www.pbase.com/scho/image/120168494/large.jpg)
(http://www.pbase.com/scho/image/120168497/large.jpg)
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Simon
Why do you not answer my questions, which makes it appear that you are one of these.
In my working with Canon and the documentation that I have pointed you to I think you should be able to get this working correctly. Or maybe I am mistaken and you do not print with Canon printers.
Doyle
Doyle.
I am not sure what questions you mean. I have several times, on other forums and posts, given you details of my set-up. I have also invited you to test whether your set-up is, indeed, able to print accurate targets without colour management using a benchmark print from a version of Photoshop prior to CS4. I am awaiting your results with interest - along with the details of your set-up. If, as you and others contend, that it is the printer driver that is at fault then publishing your results, methodology, and set-up would help clarify the whole situation for a lot of people.
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I'm using a Canon iPF6100 with SL and print with custom icc profiles via ImageNest 2.0. If I use the printer CM/colorsync route I get prints with a light gray background. Using the Vendor CM option and no color correction prints are fine. Screen grabs for the latter workflow shown below.
ImageNest does not use the new printing path and that is why you have full control over the drivers. With LR and PSCS4 that use the new printing path the Color Matching dialog will be grayed out and default to ColorSync and the Main dialog under Color with be grayed out and defaulted to No Correction when PS Manages Color and when PS is set to No Color Management.
Simon
The above describes what happens with my iPF printer when No Color Management is selected in the PS print dialog. What I was asking is how does your printer driver react in comparison to what I have described here and to the documentation that I pointed you to in the advanced document?
Or here. http://www.dypinc.com/Canon/Canon_Pro9500_...anced_Guide.pdf (http://www.dypinc.com/Canon/Canon_Pro9500_Mark_II_series_Advanced_Guide.pdf)
Doyle
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Why knock on Adobe's door about this? What makes you think it's their problem? From all I've read here - and with considerable interest in case I decide to change my O/S - it would appear to me that this is an Apple Computer Inc. problem which they need to resolve. Now interestingly, Wayne Fox says they've recognized the issue and Jeff Schewe says a number of other issues have been addressed in a "dot" release or two of Snow Leopard, so perhaps from hereon it is just a matter of waiting for the printer target "no color management" issue to be resolved and all will be well?
I knocked on Apple's, Adobe's and Canon's doors. Apple initially refused to respond quoting "business reasons" but then gave me some limited information which I cannot reveal under a non-disclosure agreement (although, really, it doesn't help much). Canon have failed to respond at all, aside from a standard letter answering another entirely unrelated question. Adobe, however, have spent a considerable amount of time and effort - at a very senior level - trying to help me (us) out.
From the information Adobe have given me it does appear that the origin of the problem is from Apple. Adobe have told me that Apple changed the printing APIs such that every file sent to a printer "must" have a profile attached to it (i.e. it must be "tagged"). Thus, in the case of untagged files (our colour patch targets for profiling), the OS attempts to colour manage the file in undisclosed ways which is, of course, what we don't want it to do.
CS4 adopted these new Apple APIs, presumably in preparation for the release of Snow Leopard. Older versions of Photoshop still use the old APIs, thus no problem.
I do not believe that it is helpful to hand-out blame to one party or another. My own view is that Apple, Adobe, and the printer manufacturers should all get together and solve this problem and stop 'handing it over the wall' to someone else. They all need to take responsibility for the problem and for finding a solution. It is not as if it is going to go away of its own accord !
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Interesting - and kudos to Adobe.
I fully subscribe to your closing comment on the need for better industry coordination to improve the prospects of such screw-ups not happening, and I have been making a similar point in a number of such dsicussion threads past and present. Assigning blame of course is not the object of the discussion, but that said, those involved in solving the problem need to know where it comes from. Whether they are prepared to share that information with the clients is another matter. The primary client interest is that it be resolved at the level of its fundamentals, and those responsible for doing so presumably know who they are. Forums such as this are helpful to stimulate interest in problem solving and applying consumer pressure where appropriate.
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Wayne- how does one delete appropriate cache files from 10.6.2? Where are they located. Search has proved fruitless. Thanks!
Cache files can be found in "MacintoshHD/Library/Caches/". There is usually a folder there named Epson ... throw the entire folder in the trash and empty the trash.
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From the information Adobe have given me it does appear that the origin of the problem is from Apple. Adobe have told me that Apple changed the printing APIs such that every file sent to a printer "must" have a profile attached to it (i.e. it must be "tagged"). Thus, in the case of untagged files (our colour patch targets for profiling), the OS attempts to colour manage the file in undisclosed ways which is, of course, what we don't want it to do.
CS4 adopted these new Apple APIs, presumably in preparation for the release of Snow Leopard. Older versions of Photoshop still use the old APIs, thus no problem.
I do not believe that it is helpful to hand-out blame to one party or another. My own view is that Apple, Adobe, and the printer manufacturers should all get together and solve this problem and stop 'handing it over the wall' to someone else. They all need to take responsibility for the problem and for finding a solution. It is not as if it is going to go away of its own accord !
These kind of comments from Adobe and others are why this issue goes round and round and why it is so frustrating. There is simple to much buck passing from everyone which does nothing but confuse people and give the parties involved an excuse to not make the effort to fix their own problems. Their statement "Thus, in the case of untagged files (our colour patch targets for profiling), the OS attempts to colour manage the file in undisclosed ways which is, of course, what we don't want it to do" is simply not true. There are printer drivers that will pass untagged files, without color management to the printer.
Simon in your case it does appear to be a printer driver problem, because it should work exactly the same as I have previously described. Check you PM.
Doyle
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From the information Adobe have given me it does appear that the origin of the problem is from Apple. Adobe have told me that Apple changed the printing APIs such that every file sent to a printer "must" have a profile attached to it (i.e. it must be "tagged"). Thus, in the case of untagged files (our colour patch targets for profiling), the OS attempts to colour manage the file in undisclosed ways which is, of course, what we don't want it to do.
Hmm, it makes me wonder Simon. If Apple's APIs require that all files sent to a printer MUST be tagged then how can I possibly send an untagged target file directly to the printer by just choosing to not use Colorsync? It would seem that either Apple has changed the API or Adobe is misinformed. In the tests this week, I did this from 3 different applications and the output was identical. I wish there were some logical explanation for why some systems have a problem and some don't.
Don
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From the information Adobe have given me it does appear that the origin of the problem is from Apple. Adobe have told me that Apple changed the printing APIs such that every file sent to a printer "must" have a profile attached to it (i.e. it must be "tagged"). Thus, in the case of untagged files (our colour patch targets for profiling), the OS attempts to colour manage the file in undisclosed ways which is, of course, what we don't want it to do.
I've talked directly with a couple of people that are pretty involved in the non-mamanged workflow issue now, and they firmly believe the drivers can be fixed to resolve the problem. I also prefer to keep my sources anonymous. While Apple may have "caused" the problems with changes to the OS (which certainly is their right) , at this point things can work. According to them, it appears some changes to the printer drivers are in order at this point.
I'm surprised at all of the discussion of a problem that has existed since October of 2007. Printing of non managed targets is not a Snow Leopard issue. It's easy to work around it (at least 3 or 4 different ways to do this).
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Hmm, it makes me wonder Simon. If Apple's APIs require that all files sent to a printer MUST be tagged then how can I possibly send an untagged target file directly to the printer by just choosing to not use Colorsync? It would seem that either Apple has changed the API or Adobe is misinformed. In the tests this week, I did this from 3 different applications and the output was identical. I wish there were some logical explanation for why some systems have a problem and some don't.
Don
If you can choose ColorSync or Vendor Matching (what ever it may be called in a particular printer driver) your either using an application that does not use the new printing path or you are selecting Printer Manages Color in an application that does use the new printing path.
Doyle
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If you can choose ColorSync or Vendor Matching (what ever it may be called in a particular printer driver) your either using an application that does not use the new printing path or you are selecting Printer Manages Color in an application that does use the new printing path.
Doyle
FWIW Doyle, I am choosing Printer Manages Color in CS4. I am choosing Epson Color Controls in the Color Matching tab of the printer driver in Preview, And, I am choosing the same thing in the Eye-One software. All of these applications can print an untagged profile target correctly. Doesn't that sort of suggest that Apple can do it right?
Don
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This has been quiet too long...
I am very disappointed to see that nearly 7 weeks after this was publicised ( and it was known about for months prior that! ) that the manufacturers have still not addressed this problem. My faith in printing from my Mac is basically zero right now, I simply don't trust it. Before you start, yes I know I *could* print from it, but my confidence that it's all actually working correctly is destroyed. To think I upgraded to my 7880 specifically to take advantage of the 16 bit drivers on the Mac, and now my only reliable option is to use Windows and it's 8 bit printing paths. I've a 7880 here which has never been used, I do not use Epson papers, I use 3rd party papers, which means I have to profile them, and yet I cannot do so reliably, not without "workarounds" which I do not consider to be a proper solution.
Epson - I've supported for many years, had great faith in their products which I've recommended to others without reservation, but they've literally left their customers hung out to dry here. They sell you a Pro printer, which you would use for business, and then cut you off with no drivers or drivers which don't work properly. Not only the problems for printers officially supporting Snow Leopard, but the printers ( including Pro models ) they've disinherited. I've seen many posts from people with printers for which Epson have said they're just not going to release Snow Leopard compatible drivers for, e.g. Pro 4000. If anyone asked me right now for a recommendation, I honestly think I would suggest they avoid Epson.
Apple - As secretive as ever, will acknowledge nothing, totally non-committal and won't help you for fear of admitting something. The user here who received some help from Apple Support to try to fix this had to sign a non-disclosure agreement before they would help! I never thought I'd say it, but Apple is now Microsoft in all but name. My opinion of Snow Leopard printing is currently "it's broken" anyone asking me will be given a recommendation to print from something else.
Adobe - The most responsive of the three, but other than pointing out it's "not their fault" seem to have done little to get this resolved ( Eric Chan's personal efforts notwithstanding ). I still think there's more than meets the eye here, but at least they have publicly acknowledged something.
Am I whinging and moaning? Sure I am, but I think it's justified, to me this is utterly unprofessional and the epitome of poor customer support, clearly from the posts I've seen I'm not the only one who feels slightly aggrieved at this situation. Do I expect these companies to drop everything they're doing an devote all their attention to me? Of course not, but this isn't just me is it? These are current products, which they're still selling, which do not work as they are supposed to. When will somebody do something to fix this?
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My opinion of Snow Leopard printing is currently "it's broken" anyone asking me will be given a recommendation to print from something else.
It is not broken for everybody. So the big question is why.
Doyle
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Am I whinging and moaning? Sure I am, but I think it's justified, to me this is utterly unprofessional and the epitome of poor customer support, clearly from the posts I've seen I'm not the only one who feels slightly aggrieved at this situation. Do I expect these companies to drop everything they're doing an devote all their attention to me? Of course not, but this isn't just me is it? These are current products, which they're still selling, which do not work as they are supposed to. When will somebody do something to fix this?
[/quote]
There is an old saying in engineering to the effect that "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". Maybe it ain't broke. Have you actually tried to print an untagged target on your 7880 with SL with Colorsync turned off? I'll bet you can if you try.
Don
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[quote name='DonCone' date='Dec 19 2009, 10:13 AM' post='334029'
There is an old saying in engineering to the effect that "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". Maybe it ain't broke. Have you actually tried to print an untagged target on your 7880 with SL with Colorsync turned off? I'll bet you can if you try.
Don
[/quote]
Don, this thread is about 123 posts long. If there's nothing broken what's all the fuss been about? I mean are you sure? Would be nice!
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[quote name='DonCone' date='Dec 19 2009, 10:13 AM' post='334029'
There is an old saying in engineering to the effect that "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". Maybe it ain't broke. Have you actually tried to print an untagged target on your 7880 with SL with Colorsync turned off? I'll bet you can if you try.
Don
Don, this thread is about 123 posts long. If there's nothing broken what's all the fuss been about? I mean are you sure? Would be nice!
Mark, I fell into the trap of reading some of these posts and assuming that I must have the problem too. I do not. I printed a target the way I have many times in the past from PS and it was bad. I did not realize that in CS4, selecting "No Color Management" in the Adobe print dialog actually turned Colorsync "ON". That was my only problem. When I started reading this thread it seemed to be a mixed bag of people who had a problem and people who do not. There are printers that do not have updated drivers for Leopard/Snow Leopard available and they may have the problem. I don't have one to test so don't know. But, with Leopard compatible drivers printing from applications that can turn Colorsync Off in the printer driver should work.
Don
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Thanks for the insightful article on the challenges of printing targets from CS4/Leopard and Snow Leopard..........
So many thanks to Mark and Eric (and all of the others who have helped.) Hopefully it gets fixed someday, after all turning color management off in Photoshop should do just that, but at least I can resume making profiles for my 7900.
With the "soon" to be released 10.6.3, It would be nice if we could get an update from the main characters to the article or this thread as to whether printing targets will be "fixed"!
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With the "soon" to be released 10.6.3, It would be nice if we could get an update from the main characters to the article or this thread as to whether printing targets will be "fixed"!
my guess is 10.7 will work, thereby forcing an upgrade. Apple have promised that profile printing will be a supported test case in the future, however these days their engineering resources are probably focused onthe iphone/ ipad system.
Edmund
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With the "soon" to be released 10.6.3, It would be nice if we could get an update from the main characters to the article or this thread as to whether printing targets will be "fixed"!
Uh, do you think Apple would actually TELL anybody what they did or didn't fix in a dot release? Really? I got a bridge in the desert I'll sell ya...
We'll see but I wouldn't be holding my breath if I were you...
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Does anybody know what small number of printer drivers this affects. As I have pointed out before, it appears that this problem affects only some printer drivers, so it is highly uncertain that this is an Adobe or Apple problem.
Doyle
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Thanks for the insightful article on the challenges of printing targets from CS4/Leopard and Snow Leopard........
So many thanks to Mark and Eric (and all of the others who have helped.) Hopefully it gets fixed someday, after all turning color management off in Photoshop should do just that....
Now that 10.6.3 has been released, does anyone know if the issue has been fixed?