Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: Radeldudel on October 20, 2009, 08:46:37 am
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I'm pondering buying a printer (Epson 9900 would be nice).
But to see if this really adds up, I'd like to know how high printing costs per m² (or per square foot) are for different printers.
Of course I know, these information is always highly variable, since printing a lot of dark prints is more expensive than high-key, but still I'd love to get a few pointers about costs for inks.
Paper prices I can look up, it's just the ink costs per m² where I got no clue at all.
Is there somewhere a site comparing ink costs for different high-end fine-art printers?
Thanks,
Sam
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If you buy 700ml inks for a 9900 you can be as low as .31/ml, while 220ml carts for the 9880 should fall at about .36/ml. Based on 2 to 3ml per square foot ink usage you can calculate the ink cost. As I mentioned in another thread, I'd use $1.00 per sq ft as a rough cost.
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As I mentioned in another thread, I'd use $1.00 per sq ft as a rough cost.
Great, thats a good approxmiation (especially since it is easy to remember).
thanks!
Sam
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If you buy 700ml inks for a 9900 you can be as low as .31/ml, while 220ml carts for the 9880 should fall at about .36/ml. Based on 2 to 3ml per square foot ink usage you can calculate the ink cost. As I mentioned in another thread, I'd use $1.00 per sq ft as a rough cost.
Randy,
2 to 3 ML per square foot is 22 to 33 ML per square meter.
The nice price per ML on the large cart doesn't compensate ink use like that.
That is a lot of ink, we have seen all kinds of numbers here so far but usually between 0.8 to 2 ML a square foot, where the 2 ML is already seen as a high number.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/)
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"The nice price per ML on the large cart doesn't compensate ink use like that."
Ernst, I don't quite get the message on this line. Can you rephrase it - I must be thick-headed today.
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If you buy 700ml inks for a 9900 you can be as low as .31/ml, while 220ml carts for the 9880 should fall at about .36/ml. Based on 2 to 3ml per square foot ink usage you can calculate the ink cost. As I mentioned in another thread, I'd use $1.00 per sq ft as a rough cost.
I had guessed about £1/A4, which is more than double, but on the right side, and might be accurate for dark coloured prints ( I think that the shades of grey inks are cheaper than the colours?
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Gee, I know this is an ink cost discussion - however, in my practical world of, wide format Z3100, fine art printing on expensive rag (Hahnemuhle) paper. The paper cost - not the ink - is the big expense - by far.
I would buy on other factors - than relative ink costs - is my point.
Howard
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Gee, I know this is an ink cost discussion - however, in my practical world of, wide format Z3100, fine art printing on expensive rag (Hahnemuhle) paper. The paper cost - not the ink - is the big expense - by far.
So good the (good) paper is more expensive than the printing? Thats good to know, too.
I would buy on other factors - than relative ink costs - is my point.
I will, but I don't want to buy without this little piece of knowledge. I don't wanna end up with a printer where afterwards everyone says "how could you buy *that*, the ink is way more expensive than all competitors".
Kind regards,
Sam
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Gee, I know this is an ink cost discussion - however, in my practical world of, wide format Z3100, fine art printing on expensive rag (Hahnemuhle) paper. The paper cost - not the ink - is the big expense - by far.
I would buy on other factors - than relative ink costs - is my point.
Howard
Howard,
With a Z3100 on Photorag and in a market that asks for Photorag it is less an issue.
As soon as you have to print on RC papers or even cheaper qualities like EEM / Litho Realistic for another market and with a printer that will lay down 25 ML on a square meter (or somewhere else) you will notice a problem in your pricing. Either you accept the smaller margin then or you are not competitive.
I don't believe that 2 to 3 ML per square foot in the first place so that is why I am asking where it comes from.
Randy,
On the nice price: 0.31 $ per ML on a 700 ML cart is a nice price. In Europe for the same cart content 0.26 Euro per ML excl VAT is about the best you can get (buyer's perspective :-)
There is a discussion going on at the Epson Wide Format list in what way the recent Epsons count their ink use. It isn't clear at all to the memebers there.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/)
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I know that Red River did the some experimentation on their papers and has ink costs for some printers here (http://www.redrivercatalog.com/cost-of-inkjet-printing.html). Even if there is a 10% error based on their calculations of how much ink is left in the partially full cartridge, the costs are over one dollar per square foot. Papers requiring photo black have a higher cost factor. I would agree with others that the cost of the paper is more than the ink and one can get per sheet costs from a number of vendor websites that should allow one to calculate the rough cost per print.
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We print and sell allmost entirely canvas produced from the Epson 7900.
I can also tell you that canvas and ink costs are a minimal cost in the big picture. If you use 2ml of ink per square foot @ .31 per ml that is .62cents per square foot and your canvas is about $1.40 a square foot ,your material cost for those 2 items is $2.00 a square foot.
Our gallery wraps go for about $50.00 a square foot. That makes ink and canvas 5% of total cost. For a 22" X 32" gallery wrap that sells for $275.00, total materials including stretcher frame are just over 10% of a total sale.
My breakdown for a $275.00 wrap is as follows.
My labor rate I strive for is $50.00 per hour. I have 2 3/4 hours in a wrap plus the image fee and materials. My costs are not $50.00 an hour ,I am charging $50.00 and hour for my time.
I hope that makes sense. Someone commented that my costs seemed quite high and I wanted to clarify.
$50.00 for my image liscense fee
$30.00 ink - canvas - stetcher bars - hanger
$50.00 post process 1 hour
$50.00 print the image and varnish with Glamor II - 1 hour
$45.00 Build the frame - 3/4 hour
$50.00 Strech and staple canvas to frame and add the hanger - 1 hour
$275.00 total
$245 labor and $30.00 materials.
Your probably asking the wrong question. Labor is everything. Yes it's good to know about the ink but if you sell large the numbers do not lie.
The bigger the better. I am looking to add the 9900 as the 7900 is just too small for my gallery wraps.
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Dan, thanks a lot for your detailed breakdown, it is very helpful.
Of course, total cost is quite high, maybe I underestimate my working hours. I will see, still I appreciate pointers about the printing cost.
Thanks,
Sam
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I know that Red River did the some experimentation on their papers and has ink costs for some printers here (http://www.redrivercatalog.com/cost-of-inkjet-printing.html). Even if there is a 10% error based on their calculations of how much ink is left in the partially full cartridge, the costs are over one dollar per square foot. Papers requiring photo black have a higher cost factor. I would agree with others that the cost of the paper is more than the ink and one can get per sheet costs from a number of vendor websites that should allow one to calculate the rough cost per print.
One dollar per square foot with A3+ desktop models is what they counted in an elaborate way. No mention of ML per cart or the price of the cart but a unit called CEU = cartridge equivalent usage. Counting per square inch which may be a nice area on a desktop model. We all know that MLs in desktop printer carts are 2x to 3x the price of wide format carts MLs so I ignore that price per print size as given in their tables.
If that CEU counting for the R2400 has been correct.
An Epson R2400 has 12 ML per cart
They quote 0.00075 CEU per square inch so I compute 1.3 ML per square foot.
There's no reason that a wide format of the same generation should use more than that on a square foot.
With 0.30 - 0.40 $ a ML on the big carts that makes the price per square foot 39 to 52 dollarcents for a wide format.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers)
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Your probably asking the wrong question. Labor is everything. Yes it's good to know about the ink but if you sell large the numbers do not lie.
The bigger the better. I am looking to add the 9900 as the 7900 is just too small for my gallery wraps.
I agree completely with your view on this but not on the wrong question lines.
He should have asked how he can create a market that allows margins and labor costs/times like your's above and still have plenty to do.
My pricing isn't that far off but I know that I have not the market share of the canvas competition, their pricing is half mine or even lower. For several reasons: the image quality isn't equal, some use Eco-solvent inks with a way lower price and their prints go without the varnish as a result of that ink choice.
The cost of inks as part of a labor intensive product still counts depending on the market. In products that are not more than paper + ink it becomes way more important.
The main question of this thread is what goes through the printer and the price you pay for it. What I see so far varies wildly and some find it a non issue. That creates a nice playing field for printer manufacturers.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/)
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Good points Ernst,
Yes I must agree that ink and paper are still a very important part of the equation in your total sale price,especially if you are selling small. I was trying to say that taking that ink number and then comparing it to the total ink costs from printer to printer is really a non factor in the printer purchase decision. (Larger printers of equal size) If my ink costs for my 7900 are .62 per square foot or $3.72 for a 6 square foot print and the cost for an equal size Canon printer are $4.22 for the same print that comes to .50 cents difference out of a $275.00 sale. Not a reason at all to buy one over the other.
Thats where I was going with that
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I have nearly an headache
Ernst what will be the price in euro and meter square ? , I shall get the Epson 3880 within the next 2 weeks I hope
thank you
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Don't forget ink lost in cleans. Estimates from a number of sources (including my own ) suggest cleaning ink is about the same as printing ink. Some users are lucky and use less, but best calculate on the poorer scenario. That puts my usage at about 40ml/sqm.
I print on 9900 at 2880 ppi. This puts down more ink. I do this not just to aid smoothness , but to increase richness. As mentioned before ink cost is a small fraction of total cost. Time is the most expensive input . Work out your time .. Then add printer, computer and software cost over 3 years, value of space (at rent value),electricity, rates, rubbish collection and beer and coffee for clients. Then calculate what a print costs. Who cares if someone points out that there are cheaper inks. Of course. Let them put kerosene in their cars. The best always costs more money.
Cheers,
Brian
www.pharoseditions.com.au
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Don't forget ink lost in cleans. Estimates from a number of sources (including my own ) suggest cleaning ink is about the same as printing ink. Some users are lucky and use less, but best calculate on the poorer scenario. That puts my usage at about 40ml/sqm.
I print on 9900 at 2880 ppi. This puts down more ink. I do this not just to aid smoothness , but to increase richness. As mentioned before ink cost is a small fraction of total cost. Time is the most expensive input . Work out your time .. Then add printer, computer and software cost over 3 years, value of space (at rent value),electricity, rates, rubbish collection and beer and coffee for clients. Then calculate what a print costs. Who cares if someone points out that there are cheaper inks. Of course. Let them put kerosene in their cars. The best always costs more money.
Cheers,
Brian
www.pharoseditions.com.au
Alright, yet another number: 40ML per square meter = 3.6 ML per square foot, Epson 9900.
BTW, are the profiles for the 2880 dpi settings a different set than for the lower print resolutions ?
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/)
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there is a cost calculator on the epson website
http://content.epson-europe.com/uk/runningcostcalculator/ (http://content.epson-europe.com/uk/runningcostcalculator/)
its not bad either i find its not far off the mark
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there is a cost calculator on the epson website
http://content.epson-europe.com/uk/runningcostcalculator/ (http://content.epson-europe.com/uk/runningcostcalculator/)
its not bad either i find its not far off the mark
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Earnst,
[quote name='Ernst Dinkla' date='Oct 23 2009, 07:34 AM' post='319498']
"Alright, yet another number: 40ML per square meter = 3.6 ML per square foot, Epson 9900."
This includes the wasted ink cleaning. About 1/3 of cleaning ink is squirted through clean nozzles.
"BTW, are the profiles for the 2880 dpi settings a different set than for the lower print resolutions ?"
Yes. We observed considerable differences on the 9800 with 1440 and 2880 profiles, especially in dark saturated colours. With the 9900 printing is only on 2880 dpi.
Best
Brian
www.pharoseditions.com.au
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there is a cost calculator on the epson website
http://content.epson-europe.com/uk/runningcostcalculator/ (http://content.epson-europe.com/uk/runningcostcalculator/)
its not bad either i find its not far off the mark
the link is not working
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the link is not working
It isn't working for several printers as no media choices are included at the end.
But some do.
Pricing of ink is based on June 2008 in UK pounds, RRP prices. I have set the UKP at 1.25 Euro at that time.
The 9450, a dual CMYK model, A0 size Enhanced Matte, printed with an ink price of 1.63 UKP and that more or less translates to 6 ML per square meter = 0.54 per square foot. 220 ML carts, 0.30 Euro per ML excl VAT
The 11880, 2880 x 1440, A1 Premium Luster, printed with an ink price of 1.37 UKP and that translates to 11.3 Ml per square meter = 1 ML per square foot.
700 ML carts, 0.26 Euro excl. VAT.
The 3800, same paper, 2.8 ML per A2 is 11.2 ML per square meter = 1 ML per square foot. 80 ML carts. 0.56 Euro per ML excl VAT.
I can not imagine that ink waste is included, not in cleaning, not what is left in the carts, not what is wasted on prints with banding.
The image used may have been low in overall density (it usually is).
My conclusion based on this (and more) is that the average ink quantity landing on the paper is 1 ML per square foot, 11 ML per square meter, plus or minus 20%. And any ink use above that in practice is wasted ink. Which doesn't fall in the 30%+ category but in the 100 to 200%+ category if the 2-3-4 ML per square foot quoted in this thread has any meaning.
I have been in this business for 10 years. Ink landing on the paper is usually in the (rough) 0.8 to 1.5 ML per square foot category. It has been like that with the Epson 3000, 9000, 10000 and it is like that with the HP Z3100/3200. If there is a difference it is in the ink wasted. 100 - 200 % ink waste isn't normal.
It isn't uncommon in competitive markets to add just 15-25% on media costs in the end price. In some markets one can get away with adding 200% as it goes unnoticed in the overall costs of the product. If you pay 200 Euro for a 700 ML cart it is nice to know what lands on the paper and what goes down the drain with different printers. Before you start adding your percentage on top of the ink price. In any market.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/)
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thank you
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there is a cost calculator on the epson website
http://content.epson-europe.com/uk/runningcostcalculator/ (http://content.epson-europe.com/uk/runningcostcalculator/)
its not bad either i find its not far off the mark
This link does not work for me using Mac/Snow leopard/safari (loads but page is blank), but it does work (on the Mac) with firefox... but none of the 900 series printers is on it.
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i am on mac and firefox and the link is not working