Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: mcfoto on October 12, 2009, 05:48:16 pm
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From BJP
Quote:
In an interview with BJP, Dov Kalinski, CEO of Leaf Imaging, confirms that the new company, which was formed in a partnership between Phase One and Leaf’s management team, is now up and running.
‘Leaf Imaging is a new legal entity, but otherwise we have not moved,’ says Kalinski. ‘We’re in the same place in the Kodak building. We’re in full production mode with the Aptus backs.’
In fact, he adds, ‘we’ll be announcing shortly the release of the Aptus 5, an entry-level product. We see a need for entry-level products with aggressive pricing to respond to the changes that are happening in the market.’
In July, Henrik Hakonsson explained that after its acquisition of the Leaf brand, Phase One would continue to support the Aptus line. ‘There is a strong following for Leaf's camera back. We would rather offer customers greater choice than just one cheaper integrated system,' he said.
Kalinski has also hinted at the release, before the end of the year, of a new version of the Leaf Capture software. He adds: ‘Part of the advantages of being part of Phase One is the collaboration on the software side. Now, the Capture One software also supports Leaf products. So our customers have a choice between Capture One and Leaf Capture.’
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I wish them well, but who in their right mind would buy anything with Leaf brand right now, as shaky and murky as everything seems? Isn't this just ripe to be a story, where you buy it today, and in a year, the Leaf brand is folded into some other company, or folded entirely, and some guy in Cleveland, in his garage, is assigned to repairing and servicing them? And that's after he's finished working on the lawn mowers.
Buying a Leaf product today seems similar to buying a Saturn car -- one day you think they survived the crash, and then the next day, Penske walks, and the whole Saturn brand is left in ashes.
Some of these managers need to take off their lab coats, and take a class in Human Behavior.
I've still got my Edsel digital back, but I use it to hold down receipts on my desk, when I've got the window thrown open.
No matter how aggressively they're priced, in the end, we're still talking ten or fifteen THOUSAND dollars. Who's willing to throw that out the window? I'd advise Phase to buy a case of those James Russell stickers, and slap a PhaseOne logo on that Leaf back, or better yet, run off a bunch of Red Dots on an Epson printer, so that people can feel (mildly) confident about their purchase.
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Wonder what "aggressive pricing" will be. A22's are going for about $5K now. An Aptus 5 (the same thing with a new screen) won't have a market if it's higher than $7-8K. You can buy 3 x 5DII's at that point.
Not to mention the 54s, which is a faster back than the A22 or Aptus 5II, can be had for around $6k. I have my doubts about the aggressive nature of the pricing. Remember the Mamiya branded Phase backs? P30's and P45s? They were priced aggressively, aggressively high for legacy backs.
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If I had the need for a digital back, and had the CASH (not credit, or loans) but cold hard CASH, I might buy a Leaf back.
but right now, film is giving me what I want, and how I like it, albeit wet-mount scanned(drum or IqSmart Flatbed).
I'm a photo major, and personally, for my work, 15k is a huge investment. 45k for a p65+ is insane to me. but to each their own. and different tools for different jobs
and its much cheaper too . I can shoot a 4x5 sheet of portra for roughly $3-4 a shot, 8x10 is $8-9 per shot. And that's with dip n' dunk processing to boot.
15k(let alone 45K) will cover an assload of film and processing, drum scanning and a shiny new fleet of Mac Pros to edit on, and finish it up with an Epson 11880 and a couple rolls of 60" paper to print my lovely photographs on . And I'll still have cash left over for lunch
sorry to rant on my first post. I don't shoot product or studio much (where I see digi backs mostly), but I can't see how Phase and Leaf(now Phase too) can charge such an obscene amount of money for a product that will be replaced by something newer and shinier, double the pixel count in 2-3 years.
My sinar p2 is still humming along, and I'm the 3rd user! I bought it from a guy I assisted for, along with a slew of schneider db lenses (90, 150, 210,360) and an 8x10 rear standard, bag bellows, basically the whole lot, for a week's work (12hr days) in studio. He bought it from a guy HE assisted for in the 80's. Its been into Sinar ONCE! I call that an investment!
why can't the companies give photographers what THEY want, not what the company's surveys and charts say they want. They need to talk to more photographers, people who actually use their products on a daily basis, and make money with their products. Every new generation should be better, not just re-polished and a few more pixels. For 15-45K or more, we should really be getting the best that the market and the manufacturer can offer. No exceptions....
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My thoughts exactly, although I do have a back that I hardly use. I mainly shoot B&W film, and there is nothing digital that comes close to silver. Nothing.
If I had the need for a digital back, and had the CASH (not credit, or loans) but cold hard CASH, I might buy a Leaf back.
but right now, film is giving me what I want, and how I like it, albeit wet-mount scanned(drum or IqSmart Flatbed).
I'm a photo major, and personally, for my work, 15k is a huge investment. 45k for a p65+ is insane to me. but to each their own. and different tools for different jobs
and its much cheaper too . I can shoot a 4x5 sheet of portra for roughly $3-4 a shot, 8x10 is $8-9 per shot. And that's with dip n' dunk processing to boot.
15k(let alone 45K) will cover an assload of film and processing, drum scanning and a shiny new fleet of Mac Pros to edit on, and finish it up with an Epson 11880 and a couple rolls of 60" paper to print my lovely photographs on . And I'll still have cash left over for lunch
sorry to rant on my first post. I don't shoot product or studio much (where I see digi backs mostly), but I can't see how Phase and Leaf(now Phase too) can charge such an obscene amount of money for a product that will be replaced by something newer and shinier, double the pixel count in 2-3 years.
My sinar p2 is still humming along, and I'm the 3rd user! I bought it from a guy I assisted for, along with a slew of schneider db lenses (90, 150, 210,360) and an 8x10 rear standard, bag bellows, basically the whole lot, for a week's work (12hr days) in studio. He bought it from a guy HE assisted for in the 80's. Its been into Sinar ONCE! I call that an investment!
why can't the companies give photographers what THEY want, not what the company's surveys and charts say they want. They need to talk to more photographers, people who actually use their products on a daily basis, and make money with their products. Every new generation should be better, not just re-polished and a few more pixels. For 15-45K or more, we should really be getting the best that the market and the manufacturer can offer. No exceptions....
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Not to mention the 54s, which is a faster back than the A22 or Aptus 5II, can be had for around $6k. I have my doubts about the aggressive nature of the pricing. Remember the Mamiya branded Phase backs? P30's and P45s? They were priced aggressively, aggressively high for legacy backs.
The spec sheet of the A54S said 0.87 s/f and the new one says 0.9 s/f.
If 0.03 is so crucial then I can guarantee that the two backs shoot at EXACTLY the same speed...the number was just rounded up to look better on paper.
The Aptus-II 5 offers the same high image quality as the A22 and A54S (some say that the FTF4052C (http://www.dalsa.com/sensors/products/sensordetails.aspx?partNumber=FTF4052C) is the best CCD ever made for stills photography) and adds a new screen with an updated interface/ firmware as well as new warranty, future support in LC and C1 and so on...worth an extra over buying used I think.
Yair
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The spec sheet of the A54S said 0.87 s/f and the new one says 0.9 s/f.
If 0.03 is so crucial then I can guarantee that the two backs shoot at EXACTLY the same speed...the number was just rounded up to look better on paper.
The Aptus-II 5 offers the same high image quality as the A22 and A54S (some say that the FTF4052C (http://www.dalsa.com/sensors/products/sensordetails.aspx?partNumber=FTF4052C) is the best CCD ever made for stills photography) and adds a new screen with an updated interface/ firmware as well as new warranty, future support in LC and C1 and so on...worth an extra over buying used I think.
Yair
All nice and good, but what you kinda missed to mention was a price. I know you can't tell us, BUT that is the main aspects if it is worth the extra. It easly could not, if the price is around 12k.
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All nice and good, but what you kinda missed to mention was a price. I know you can't tell us, BUT that is the main aspects if it is worth the extra. It easly could not, if the price is around 12k.
It is quite a lot less than 12K
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$5999.95
Do you know the specs? If this back can run on C1 Pro that will be an added bonus!
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I wish them well, but who in their right mind would buy anything with Leaf brand right now, as shaky and murky as everything seems? Isn't this just ripe to be a story, where you buy it today, and in a year, the Leaf brand is folded into some other company, or folded entirely, and some guy in Cleveland, in his garage, is assigned to repairing and servicing them? And that's after he's finished working on the lawn mowers.
Buying a Leaf product today seems similar to buying a Saturn car -- one day you think they survived the crash, and then the next day, Penske walks, and the whole Saturn brand is left in ashes.
Some of these managers need to take off their lab coats, and take a class in Human Behavior.
I've still got my Edsel digital back, but I use it to hold down receipts on my desk, when I've got the window thrown open.
No matter how aggressively they're priced, in the end, we're still talking ten or fifteen THOUSAND dollars. Who's willing to throw that out the window? I'd advise Phase to buy a case of those James Russell stickers, and slap a PhaseOne logo on that Leaf back, or better yet, run off a bunch of Red Dots on an Epson printer, so that people can feel (mildly) confident about their purchase.
George I hope you don't mind me jumping in,
There is nothing "shaky and murky" about the new Leaf Imaging company...manufacturing and shipments have recommenced in August and already the numbers are looking very good. Many people were waiting for the dust to settle before placing their orders and this shows trust and belief in the company, its products and its people.
There are new products coming in the next months, with further software developments and long term plans for new solutions
Leaf Imaging US was formed 2 weeks ago so it can continue to market and support the product. Maybe I should highlight the fact that Rick Adshead is now a member of the team and anyone who has ever owned a Leaf back in the US will appreciate that very much.
In Asia Leaf also has a strong organisation, including Fai Chan who is considered amongst the top digital product specialists in the world
Europe is covered by several people who are all experienced in both selling and supporting the product.
All these people are busy flying/ driving around the world right now, seeing customers and dealers and attending events and delivering a positive "we are ON" message. I must say that the response so far has been very, very positive!
None of the above is a kept secret and there are daily/ weekly newsletters going out to customers and dealers.
So this is not Saturn, far from it...Saturn was a BAD product while Leaf is one of the BEST products in the market, with a well established presence and a large install base, which is why people (end users, dealers and employees) stand by it and are proud to do so.
Last weekend in Barcelona, the Leaf stand at Sonimagfoto was constantly busy and this weekend the Salon De La Photo in Paris is expected to bring many people as well. Next week during PhotoPlus there are two events taking place were customers can meet the Leaf team and see the products. My understanding is that both events are already fully booked and I can say the same about 2 other events that take place in Scandinavia at the same time...
Yes the world's economy is "not in a good state" and yes the photographic industry has gone through some rough times but we are already seeing signs of recovery and we will continue to push forward and expect nothing but success in the future.
Sorry for the long reply but it is important for me that people see things from both sides of the window and as it is a nice and sunny day here I should better really get back to doing something constructive now:-)
Yair
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There is nothing "shaky and murky" about the new Leaf Imaging company...manufacturing and shipments have recommenced in August and already the numbers are looking very good. Many people were waiting for the dust to settle before placing their orders and this shows trust and belief in the company, its products and its people.
Yair,
I saw this tender love story the other night in the movie theater. It was called "ZombieLand". Woody Harrelson and a few others kept running from these people that were half-alive and half-dead, (seemingly, sorta like Leaf). The zombies were dragging a club foot, and throwing up bile, but were still somewhat alive, but limping along, (sorta like Leaf). Woody Harrelson kept trying to kill off the Zombies, but it took not one, but two, 12-gauge blasts to the head to actually kill a Zombie, (sorta like Leaf). Just when you thought a Zombie was dead and gone, they'd rise up from the ashes, (sorta like Leaf).
I wish Phase would just take a 12-gauge and finish off Leaf, and get back to work designing a digital back with a usable LCD that didn't requires dragging around a Zombie Laptop, and they could secede from the Megapixel Arms Race. Seems like lots of activity and scurrying around at Phase One, yet, in the end, nothing satisfactory ever comes to market. But hey, it's a free capitalistic country over there, and they can write the movie script however they like.
Good luck wearing that Viking Helmet. But you're now one of "them".
The End.
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Yair,
I saw this tender love story the other night in the movie theater. It was called "ZombieLand". Woody Harrelson and a few others kept running from these people that were half-alive and half-dead, (seemingly, sorta like Leaf). The zombies were dragging a club foot, and throwing up bile, but were still somewhat alive, but limping along, (sorta like Leaf). Woody Harrelson kept trying to kill off the Zombies, but it took not one, but two, 12-gauge blasts to the head to actually kill a Zombie, (sorta like Leaf). Just when you thought a Zombie was dead and gone, they'd rise up from the ashes, (sorta like Leaf).
I wish Phase would just take a 12-gauge and finish off Leaf, and get back to work designing a digital back with a usable LCD that didn't requires dragging around a Zombie Laptop, and they could secede from the Megapixel Arms Race. Seems like lots of activity and scurrying around at Phase One, yet, in the end, nothing satisfactory ever comes to market. But hey, it's a free capitalistic country over there, and they can write the movie script however they like.
Good luck wearing that Viking Helmet. But you're now one of "them".
The End.
You got me there...I haven't seen this movie but even though I do not agree to anything you say I prefer the film analogy to the car analogy...keeps it on a humoristic level.
Yair
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You know what I'm going to ask, Yair.
If 36x48 (three rows of 12x48) is $6K,
then please give me 48x48 (four rows of 12x48) for $8K.
Billy
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You got me there...I haven't seen this movie but even though I do not agree to anything you say I prefer the film analogy to the car analogy...keeps it on a humoristic level.
When you're trying to deal with Phase's promises and their "road maps", you've GOT to keep it humorous, or else you might be slightly disappointed.
http://www.zombieland.com/ (http://www.zombieland.com/)
As Woody Harrelson says, "Time to Nut up or Shut up". (Whatever that means...)
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The spec sheet of the A54S said 0.87 s/f and the new one says 0.9 s/f.
If 0.03 is so crucial then I can guarantee that the two backs shoot at EXACTLY the same speed...the number was just rounded up to look better on paper.
The Aptus-II 5 offers the same high image quality as the A22 and A54S (some say that the FTF4052C (http://www.dalsa.com/sensors/products/sensordetails.aspx?partNumber=FTF4052C) is the best CCD ever made for stills photography) and adds a new screen with an updated interface/ firmware as well as new warranty, future support in LC and C1 and so on...worth an extra over buying used I think.
Yair
I thought the Aptus 5II was slower. Interesting.
If its about $6k, these will fly off the shelves. I agree on the IQ. With lots of light, this is a great chip. A few questions:
Is the 5II going to be made in the same mounts as they were previously?
Is MAC still the US servicer of Leaf products?
Thanks Yair.
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Five rows, 60x48, for 10k, for my RZ 67, please.
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Aptus 5 sounds promising. If the price is right...
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"Time to Nut up or Shut up".
I'll begin this with sorry for the long ramble.
Yesterday, had a semi low pressured shoot, both interior location then beach location.
For whatever reason I thought I shoot it with the Contax and Phase rather than the Canons and Nikons.
I haven't really touched the Contax in 9 months, except to shoot an image, then say to heck with it and shoot the Canons, so not to be tempted I didn't even bring the Canons as backup.
Also I wanted to shoot low horizontal so the waist level finder is much easier on me and the subject so after a day I have a few notes, let me look . . . I wrote them somewhere on an old kodak film box . . . ok found them.
Note to Phase.
Get rid of those four "soft" buttons, either that or give us a way to lock them out. It took me a few minutes to "remember" what they all did, but shooting low, knees in the sand on the beach and placing the camera in my lap always turned something on like the histogram or some grayed out stuff telling me about the file. Speaking of 4 buttons, who thought up the zoom in feature to check focus. OK I know the lcd is limited in use, I know it's small, but its like playing a pong game with a grand theft auto controller trying to figure out how to move that little cursor around to check focus.
Somebody please loan Phase a 5d2 to see that focus check button on the back. Two clicks, boom-boom, one move and you can see everything. It's so easy it's crazy easy.
Note to Contax (or whoever owns Contax).
I forgot what a great camera the Contax is and the lovely noise it makes when you use the waist level finder. It just smooth, click, smooth, click.
The lenses are super sharp without a bunch of mumbo jumbo software correction features and the camera is so rock solid is nuts. I know somebody smart probably looked at the medium format market and thought uh-uh, we ain't going down that road anymore, but come on, if Phase can spend the money to resurrect the plastic Mamiya, if anyone could contemplate saving the half built HY6, then there had to be some market for the Contax. Waist level finder, right angle grip, smooth as buttah shutter and mirror. Who the hell let that camera disappear?
Note to Phase One Software guys.
An assistant did me a "favor" and tethered me to version 4. I haven't tethered to version 4 ever except an early test when it came out and realized I wasn't going to beta test this thing until it got to version 5 point 7 something but yesterday I looked at the computer and instead of that familiar no nonsense white screen I saw that grey thing that has 24 tabs and thought well since it's running I'd give it a try and every-time I changed lenses, it would disconnect the camera. I bought Phase for the stability of the software and tethering and though I gotta admit I'm not a version 4 expert, just changing lenses shouldn't shut it down.
Last night when I processed the files, I thought ok I'd try version 4, but they just looked prettier, (I know that covers a lot of territory) in 3.78 so I used what I know, life was easy and I made the deadline.
Once again, somebody please loan phase a Canon with that EOS utility disk. I know it's dumb tethering software but anyone that owns an Iphone can learn to work it in about 3 minutes. Version 4 must take a class to really learn it . . . a very long class.
Note to anyone buying a medium format back.
Buy the p21+ and old Aptus 22, the Hasselblad p21 version (whatever that is) and some stickers that say P900, or Aptus 656 and stop worrying about spending twenty gazillion dollars. That back shoots a beautiful file, is detailed and unless you spend years with your nose on a 30" screen it shoots really pretty, really film-like (i know that also covers a lot of territory).
In fact spend another $100 on one of those dog shock collars. Every-time you think about "upgrading" just hit the button and knock yourself to the floor.
Since most people reading this are photographers it will take a year or so of shock training to understand you don't really need 8 billion pixels and have to sell the car just to own a medium format back that works. Nobody will know the difference and you'll have a lot more time to shoot rather than learn a bunch of stuff you don't need to learn anyway.
Note to self.
Shoot more with the P21+ and sell the p30+. The difference is just night and day when shooting. The p21+ just shoots when you press the button, the p30+ you shoot and count 1 thousand one one thou...click,
Put a spam blocker that stops all Calumet and Phase offers. Don't temp myself to buy anything other than more batteries for the contax.
Last note to Phase.
How about a firmware upgrade to give us a black and white option on the lcd? I know the lcd sucks, I know it's hard to tell it's color anyway, but yesterday the AD wanted to see the shot in black and white and I had to say naw there's no black and white function on here. but don't worry I'll do it when I process. Every camera on the planet has a black and white function.
Please throw away that paper mask that comes with the back. If you put it where it belongs (under the ground glass) everything is back focused. If you put it on top, it bows and of course doesn't give exact framing. Come one guys, stop being cheap, at least put Bill Maxwells phone number in the Phase One box so you can get the cropping without having to jury rig black photo tape.
Now please, please don't get rid of version 3. I know it's old, I know it's got a white background and the type design came from a ms-dos word processor, but it works and if it does crash when you shoot 500 files to a folder at least it starts back up fast and doesn't lose anything.
Version 4 is so heavy so many tabs nobody has time for it under even a light pressured project.
Note to all camera makers.
Go to Samy's with a wobbly TV tray under your arm. Sit it up and put every camera on the tray and shoot a frame. Watch the TV tray jump. Then do this with the Contax and notice how smooth it is.
Then try to change the Fstop and shutter on every camera made and realize some knobs goes one way, another wheel the other, then try the contax. It's got a real shutter dial with numbers a real F stop ring on the lens (also with numbers).
That's the goal.
Second note to self.
Do not buy any more cameras. What I own works, stop messing around. Go to the Pit Bull shop in East LA and buy that shock collar.
Spend more time using what I got, what I know and less time in front of the computer learning something that doesn't really change anything.
Since medium format wants to live in the film era of cameras, then fine, I'll just treat it like a film camera.
Shoot more with the p21+.
BC
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You know what I'm going to ask, Yair.
If 36x48 (three rows of 12x48) is $6K,
then please give me 48x48 (four rows of 12x48) for $8K.
Billy
I'd be interested in that - especially if it would be in a AFi, Hy6 or Rollei 6000 mount.
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If 36x48 (three rows of 12x48) is $6K,
Are you expecting the Aptus 5 to have a 36x48mm sensor?
Or are you taking the second hand or end-of-life discount prices on backs using two-generation old 22MP 36x48mm sensors as a basis for judging a reasonable price for a new back?
I would expect the Aptus 5 to use the smallest of current sensors, 33x44mm, probably the 28MP, 7.2 micron cell size Dalsa sensor, which I expect is now being discounted as the new generation of 6 micron sensors arrive. New 40MP, 6 micron cell 33x44mm sensors are surely coming from Dalsa and/or Kodak for the less expensive DMF options.
Is Phase One going to use the brand names Leaf and Aptus a bit like it uses Mamiya for backs: for less expensive models using slightly older sensors, as part of an effort to make "Phase One" its prestige brand name for backs, bodies and lenses?
[Edit] P.S. Thanks for the spec's zteff. So I guessed wrong: the cost saving is from using two-generation old 22MP 9 micron 36x48mm sensors. Does this allow retirement of the previous Aptus 76/65/22 lines? Are these Dalsa FTF4052C sensors left over from the alleged bulk purchase by Mamiya of such sensors for its ill-fated ZD models? Kodak has long since stopped making its 22MP 36x48mm sensor, but Dalsa still offers the FTF4052C.
If the forum talk about overcoming the crop of smaller sensors being a far higher priority than resolution increases is true for a significant proportion of DMF uses, this could make good sense.
But at the cost of both worse noise and worse resolution than newer sensors! The ISO 400 limit (same as for the Aptus 22) might be an inherent disadvantage of using that older (c. 2004) sensor technology. Technological progress since then, in particular reduced amp. noise, has outstripped the effects of pixel size reduction.
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Here are the specs of the aptus II 5...
Is it really true that this is the same chip as A22?
Anyone know why it doesn´t go to 800iso? This back has the biggest pixels of the Leaf lineup. It should be able to do great at high ISO, right?
-S[attachment=17184:leaf_apt...atasheet.pdf]
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...
it's always a pleasure to read your contributions. So ... thanks for sharing.
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Note to Phase.
Get rid of those four "soft" buttons, either that or give us a way to lock them out. It took me a few minutes to "remember" what they all did, but shooting low, knees in the sand on the beach and placing the camera in my lap always turned something on like the histogram or some grayed out stuff telling me about the file.
You can lock the buttons under a second. Push and hold the upper left button and tap the bottom right button. Those buttons are now locked until you do the same to unlock them.
Note to Phase One Software guys.
An assistant did me a "favor" and tethered me to version 4. I haven't tethered to version 4 ever except an early test when it came out and realized I wasn't going to beta test this thing until it got to version 5 point 7 something but yesterday I looked at the computer and instead of that familiar no nonsense white screen I saw that grey thing that has 24 tabs and thought well since it's running I'd give it a try and every-time I changed lenses, it would disconnect the camera. I bought Phase for the stability of the software and tethering and though I gotta admit I'm not a version 4 expert, just changing lenses shouldn't shut it down.
You know I have a lot of respect for you. But you used software for the first time on a job and it's Phase's fault that the user interface looked unfamiliar? Capture One 4's interface is ENORMOUSLY flexible (version 5 will be even more so) such that you can have everything on the screen at once (nice for power users with big monitors) or nothing but the image (or anything in between).
Your camera disconnecting when you change lenses is (very likely) not related to your software. If you were tethering to a more recent mac then you probably had insufficient power coming from the firewire port. Set the back to [Configuration > Power Source > Battery] and put a battery in the back and that will likely go away.
Capture One 4.8.3 is very very stable.
Last night when I processed the files, I thought ok I'd try version 4, but they just looked prettier, (I know that covers a lot of territory) in 3.78 so I used what I know, life was easy and I made the deadline.
This of course is purely aesthetic. Most of our user's have found the color, detail, and noise/grain structure to be better in version 4; however, anytime you change ANYTHING about the way an image is processed you'll have some who feel it was in the wrong direction, and that's fine.
Once again, somebody please loan phase a Canon with that EOS utility disk. I know it's dumb tethering software but anyone that owns an Iphone can learn to work it in about 3 minutes. Version 4 must take a class to really learn it . . . a very long class.
It's very rare to find photographers who prefer EOS utility to Capture One (assuming they have spent more than 5 minutes in each). You know this I'm sure.
We do start up training very frequently now and I can say from direct experience that every user we've trained has been up and running in under two hours. Yes, it does take 2 hours. It's a professional program with a lot of power and options; if you don't care about any advanced features I can show you everything you need to just connect and shoot in 10 minutes (just about all you can do with EOS utility).
Last note to Phase.
How about a firmware upgrade to give us a black and white option on the lcd? I know the lcd sucks, I know it's hard to tell it's color anyway, but yesterday the AD wanted to see the shot in black and white and I had to say naw there's no black and white function on here. but don't worry I'll do it when I process. Every camera on the planet has a black and white function.
Done. The P40+ and 65+ (and presumably every future back) has a black and white option on the LCD. It's possible this will be extended to previous backs in the future, but no promises.
Please throw away that paper mask that comes with the back. If you put it where it belongs (under the ground glass) everything is back focused. If you put it on top, it bows and of course doesn't give exact framing. Come one guys, stop being cheap, at least put Bill Maxwells phone number in the Phase One box so you can get the cropping without having to jury rig black photo tape.
Bill Maxwell in fact would be happy to make you such a mask and is literally a phone call away. If you don't want to deal with two vendors then when you're purchasing your back just ask your dealer to order you a focus screen with the proper markings. It's not being "cheap" to not include it as a Phase One part; business 101 tells you that doing so would only artificially increase the price of the product for those who want it and impose that cost even on those who don't.
Now please, please don't get rid of version 3. I know it's old, I know it's got a white background and the type design came from a ms-dos word processor, but it works and if it does crash when you shoot 500 files to a folder at least it starts back up fast and doesn't lose anything.
Version 4 is so heavy so many tabs nobody has time for it under even a light pressured project.
I never know if you use such phrases for literary effect or whether you really believe that every other user feels the same as you, but the vast majority of our user base has not only made the change to version 4 but are very very happy with it. It's very fast, very stable, and very customizable.
It's being used by many of our customers in very high pressure projects and they report rock solid fast performance.
Version 5 will allow you to add/remove any or all of the tabs, and just like version 4 add and remove any tool from any tab. It even has a preset workspace called "simplified" that hides all the advanced tools.
Doug Peterson ()
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Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
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Please throw away that paper mask that comes with the back. If you put it where it belongs (under the ground glass) everything is back focused. If you put it on top, it bows and of course doesn't give exact framing.
paper? it's plastic covered with paper. And indeed if you don't remove the paper the masks are too thick and lift the screen... which leads to back focus.
In addition the masks bow even under the screen (and might lift it). I cut the notches of the masks a little bit with a cutter so that they lie without strain on the two bridges. Thus the masks don't lift the screen and if the screen is adjusted right you won't have back focus.
However a much thinner mask would be better.
Then again I prefer the masks over lines on the screen as I don't want to change the screen for the different formats (crop 1.3, crop 1.1, FF). It takes some time to adjust the screen to the focus plane with shims and every screen is mounted slightly different into the screen frame (0.1mm higher/lower makes a considerable difference regarding back or front focus in the finder). Too, I like that the cropped area is grayed out.
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Done. The P40+ and 65+ (and presumably every future back) has a black and white option on the LCD. It's possible this will be extended to previous backs in the future, but no promises.
I don't believe I'm literate enough to produce anything for effect, but I do write as I talk, so maybe that's the problem.
I also don't expect anyone to see anything my way, I just gave my experiences of revisiting medium format after shooting about 2 dozen campaigns with Canons and Nikons.
I can address every point you make but I would probably bore everyone to tears. I did use it on battery power and I know my way around 4 point whatever cause I've processed twenty gazillion files in it and like the rendering for Canon and Nikon, some for Phase but when I'm really pressured I know version 3 well and I have to admit now that you mention version 5 it gives me the sweats.
I think I and a lot of others are just on overload. Let's be realistic, I signed on to be a photographer, learned to be a business person, but never want to be a computer geek. I appreciate the control digital can give me, but loathe the time investment. Hell I own three cars that are 3 years old and none have more than 14,000 miles, so that tells you how much time I spend buried in front of a screen when I'm not shooting.
It's sometimes way, way too much and the fact that there will be version 5 well, I hope it's good, I'm sure you'll sell a lot of it to the Canon/Nikon guys, but I kind of wish it would hit the brakes on updates.
As far as other things like the mask, yes I can call Bill Maxwell, I can afford to send off two of my ground glasses and have then etched, but come on, nobody wants to look down at any camera and guess what the cropping is. Even the Leaf Valeo came with a blacked out ground glass. So maybe cheap sounds harsh, but compared to the 7 year old Valeo, that piece of paper sure looks "thrifty".
I appreciate the tip for locking off the buttons, but a black and white function should be easy and if not a real plus.
It was cool that the AD was forward enough to see something and say "that would make a great black and white" and uncool for me to say, uh, I gotta wait until we're back at the computer station to show you that. I wanted to kick myself for not bringing the Canons and that's not what you or anyone that sells medium format wants to hear.
I don't expect phase/leaf/mamiya, (maybe it should be one word now like Phleyia, cause that sounds exotic), or Hasselblad to compete head to head with Canon, but I would like to see some simple things that make it easier to get it approved on set and out the door.
My goal at this stage is to keep it simple, spend more time creating on set, less time with the computers and not buy a lot more stuff. I've already got too much stuff.
BC
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Are you expecting the Aptus 5 to have a 36x48mm sensor?
Or are you taking the second hand or end-of-life discount prices on backs using two-generation old 22MP 36x48mm sensors as a basis for judging a reasonable price for a new back?
I would expect the Aptus 5 to use the smallest of current sensors, 33x44mm, probably the 28MP, 7.2 micron cell size Dalsa sensor, which I expect is now being discounted as the new generation of 6 micron sensors arrive. New 40MP, 6 micron cell 33x44mm sensors are surely coming from Dalsa and/or Kodak for the less expensive DMF options.
Is Phase One going to use the brand names Leaf and Aptus a bit like it uses Mamiya for backs: for less expensive models using slightly older sensors, as part of an effort to make "Phase One" its prestige brand name for backs, bodies and lenses?
[Edit] P.S. Thanks for the spec's zteff. So I guessed wrong: the cost saving is from using two-generation old 22MP 9 micron 36x48mm sensors. Does this allow retirement of the previous Aptus 76/65/22 lines? Are these Dalsa FTF4052C sensors left over from the alleged bulk purchase by Mamiya of such sensors for its ill-fated ZD models? Kodak has long since stopped making its 22MP 36x48mm sensor, but Dalsa still offers the FTF4052C.
If the forum talk about overcoming the crop of smaller sensors being a far higher priority than resolution increases is true for a significant proportion of DMF uses, this could make good sense.
But at the cost of both worse noise and worse resolution than newer sensors! The ISO 400 limit (same as for the Aptus 22) might be an inherent disadvantage of using that older (c. 2004) sensor technology. Technological progress since then, in particular reduced amp. noise, has outstripped the effects of pixel size reduction.
The FT4052C is still in production and as such it makes the Aptus-II 5 a solid and affordable product for those who do not need (or cannot afford) high iso or higher resolution. The competition might not have an equivalent product as the Kodak 22MP was discontinued a while ago. The Aptus 65 and 75 are still offered refurbished and their successors the Aptus-II 6 and 7 still use the same 7.2µ Dalsa sensors.
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The FT4052C is still in production and as such it makes the Aptus-II 5 a solid and affordable product for those who do not need (or cannot afford) high iso or higher resolution. The competition might not have an equivalent product as the Kodak 22MP was discontinued a while ago. The Aptus 65 and 75 are still offered refurbished and their successors the Aptus-II 5 and 7 still use the same 7.2µ Dalsa sensors.
Yair
Did you mean to say the Aptus 5 is a successor to Aptus 65? Wouldn't it be more a successor to Aptus 22? Aptus II 6 would be the successor to Aptus 65 if I understand your thinking...
Thanks,
Steve Hendrix
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Shoot, I'd buy a Leaf back in a second. They have fantastic files. I prefer them over Phase, but that P65 is sure something.
The price of this new Aptus-II 5 needs to be pretty damn agressive to have any advantage over a 5D2, because at ISO 50, the Canon files (or Nikon D3x files) are pure sex. From test files I have of the Aptus 22 vs. 5D2, the 5D2 is superior... and it does a crapload of other things with video, high ISO, etc. But I admit, my favorite files are still from the 33MP 36x48 backs from Leaf. I hope the company stays alive and well.
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I'm a photo major, and personally, for my work, 15k is a huge investment. 45k for a p65+ is insane to me. but to each their own. and different tools for different jobs
15k(let alone 45K) will cover an assload of film and processing, drum scanning and a shiny new fleet of Mac Pros to edit on, and finish it up with an Epson 11880 and a couple rolls of 60" paper to print my lovely photographs on . And I'll still have cash left over for lunch
Everyone is entitled to express their opinion, however there's a big difference between being a student and being a working photographer. $15k may seem like an unreasonable amount of money to someone on a student's budget, but that's a couple of days work for many commercial photographers. While I have nothing against film, the process you describe has almost no applicability to the real world of commercial and advertising photography.
From T1000:
From test files I have of the Aptus 22 vs. 5D2, the 5D2 is superior.
I've done test shots with my H1/Leaf combo and a 5D MII. No contest - the MF images were sharper and had better detail in the shadows. If nothing else, Canon can't compete with the MF lenses. That said, I don't know that you'd really be able to tell the difference in the final print.
I love my Leaf back. I'd definitely consider buying the Leaf 5 if the LCD was in the same league as the 5d MII or Nikon D700. This business about closing down Leaf is nonsense in my opinion.
John
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I think it's a very interesting development, fingers crossed it all pans out nicely. To me around 22mp is the sweet spot.
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This sounds a bit like somebody called James ...
Second note to self.
Do not buy any more cameras. What I own works, stop messing around. Go to the Pit Bull shop in East LA and buy that shock collar.
BC
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I thought the Aptus 5II was slower. Interesting.
If its about $6k, these will fly off the shelves. I agree on the IQ. With lots of light, this is a great chip. A few questions:
Is the 5II going to be made in the same mounts as they were previously?
Is MAC still the US servicer of Leaf products?
Thanks Yair.
1. Yes the Aptus-II 5 is made in Phase One/ Mamiya AFD, Contax, V-series and H mounts
2. Regarding service in US (talking on behalf of Leaf Imaging):
* Customers who purchase a new Aptus-II (or a refurbished Aptus) from Leaf Imaging US will be serviced by Leaf Imaging US
* Leaf backs that are out-of-warranty can be serviced by Leaf Imaging US and can be upgraded to insure future software compatibility; This includes Aptus, Aptus S and Aptus-II digital backs
For more details you should contact your dealer.
Yair
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1. Yes the Aptus-II 5 is made in Phase One/ Mamiya AFD, Contax, V-series and H mounts
Support for the long discontinued Contax 645, and also for various discontinued Bronica and Fuji bodies according to the new Leaf Aptus-II brochure, but not for the Leaf Afi or any other flavor of the Hy6.
Not a good sign for the likelihood that Phase One will decide to revive the Afi/Hy6.
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Support for the long discontinued Contax 645, and also for various discontinued Bronica and Fuji bodies according to the new Leaf Aptus-II brochure, but not for the Leaf Afi or any other flavor of the Hy6.
Not a good sign for the likelihood that Phase One will decide to revive the Afi/Hy6.
The Aptus line was never marketed for the AFi. The AFi was a different line
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The Aptus line was never marketed for the AFi. The AFi was a different line
Of course it was not back where the Afi body was available, because the versions of Leaf backs for use with the AFi body were sold in bundles with the Afi body, not separately. But there was that way to get a Leaf back for an Afi body; now there is not. Adding Aptus backs in Afi mount would seem to be the only option for getting a new Leaf back for an existing Afi/Hy6 body.
Do you not find it strange that Afi/Hy6 versions of the Aptus-II backs have not been added, meaning that AFi/Hy6 owners are less well supported for new Leaf backs than owners of all those other MF systems, including even the long gone Contax, Bronica and Fujifilm?
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Of course it was not back where the Afi body was available, because the versions of Leaf backs for use with the AFi body were sold in bundles with the Afi body, not separately. But there was that way to get a Leaf back for an Afi body; now there is not. Adding Aptus backs in Afi mount would seem to be the only option for getting a new Leaf back for an existing Afi/Hy6 body.
Do you not find it strange that Afi/Hy6 versions of the Aptus-II backs have not been added, meaning that AFi/Hy6 owners are less well supported for new Leaf backs than owners of all those other MF systems, including even the long gone Contax, Bronica and Fujifilm?
AFi backs were sold separately, although many people chose to buy them as part of a system.
They were different to the Aptus backs. Aptus backs will not fit the AFi body and will not work on it as the internals are different.
I do not find it strange...
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Leaf never got around to having a revolving
Lead did "get around" to having a revolving sensor, though
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Really, just like an RZ67 "revolving". If so, it shows how poorly it was marketed. Being a Leaf customer for a few years, I was very aware of products. So that one was slipped in without much fanfare. A big feature I would think.
You must have been on a long holiday or really busy (I hope the latter) to miss the rotating sensor in the AFi-II 7 and AFi-II 10...launched at Photokina 2008...
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AFi backs were sold separately, although many people chose to buy them as part of a system.
They were different to the Aptus backs. Aptus backs will not fit the AFi body and will not work on it as the internals are different.
I do not find it strange...
Let me try again, dropping the Afi vs Aptus model naming distinctions,, and just considering which MF bodies Leaf makes backs for.
Leaf sells backs for a variety of long discontinued MF system from Contax, Bronica and Fujifilm
but
Leaf does not currently sells any backs for the Afi/Hy6 bodies (unless I am missing something).
This contrast is what I find strange.
Is this, as someone suggests above, because the installed base of Afi/Hy6 bodies is far smaller than for systems like the Contax 645, and so is not considered worth serving?
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Let me try again, dropping the Afi vs Aptus model naming distinctions,, and just considering which MF bodies Leaf makes backs for.
Leaf sells backs for a variety of long discontinued MF system from Contax, Bronica and Fujifilm
but
Leaf does not currently sells any backs for the Afi/Hy6 bodies (unless I am missing something).
This contrast is what I find strange.
Is this, as someone suggests above, because the installed base of Afi/Hy6 bodies is far smaller than for systems like the Contax 645, and so is not considered worth serving?
Like I said many people bought the camera as a system which means they already have Leaf AFi backs on those bodies. Quite different to the many Contax bodies that are used with film or with older/ smaller backs.
The Contax was sold for several years, the AFi was sold for several months...
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Like I said many people bought the camera as a system which means they already have Leaf AFi backs on those bodies. Quite different to the many Contax bodies that are used with film or with older/ smaller backs.
Fair enough: so maybe future "new and improved" Leaf backs will come in Afi/Hy6 versions, when a back upgrade makes sense.
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Just received the email this morning.
Aptus II 5 is $8K
AFDIII body & 80mm are $2K extra
so, give me 48x48 at $11K please
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Just received the email this morning.
Aptus II 5 is $8K
AFDIII body & 80mm are $2K extra
so, give me 48x48 at $11K please
http://www.leaf-photography.com/updates1009-en.html (http://www.leaf-photography.com/updates1009-en.html)
You know Billy it won't be just cramming in a larger sensor as it will require changing the interface, electronics etc. so EVEN IF a square sensor was only 3K more expensive, a new square back would still be ALLOT more expensive...
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Just received the email this morning.
Aptus II 5 is $8K
AFDIII body & 80mm are $2K extra
so, give me 48x48 at $11K please
56x56
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Shoot, I'd buy a Leaf back in a second. They have fantastic files. I prefer them over Phase, but that P65 is sure something.
The price of this new Aptus-II 5 needs to be pretty damn agressive to have any advantage over a 5D2, because at ISO 50, the Canon files (or Nikon D3x files) are pure sex. From test files I have of the Aptus 22 vs. 5D2, the 5D2 is superior... and it does a crapload of other things with video, high ISO, etc. But I admit, my favorite files are still from the 33MP 36x48 backs from Leaf. I hope the company stays alive and well.
i have bought both... i prefer the aptus 22 so much that a friend of my is using my 5 D II now...
it must depends on your shooting style and you lenses and camera !
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Oh dear, it's true! It's only $8k.
I guess it will make an outrageous xmas present! (for humble me of course)
Does it have any of the Plus technology of P1 for long exposures? Max exp?
Thanks
Eduardo
http://www.leaf-photography.com/updates1009-en.html (http://www.leaf-photography.com/updates1009-en.html)
You know Billy it won't be just cramming in a larger sensor as it will require changing the interface, electronics etc. so EVEN IF a square sensor was only 3K more expensive, a new square back would still be ALLOT more expensive...
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It's a Leaf back and as such, has no Phase technology whatsoever. The only Phase One connection will be Capture One support of the Leaf files in a month or less.
I think this is the smartest product/price point offering from any of the MFDB companies. It should have been done a year or more ago. It's a very capable back, lovely files and more than enough megapixels for most work.
I always cringe when someone describes something as "lovely". Kinda like kissing your sister.
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Cringe, what I do when I view some people's work.
Where's the link to your work??
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Where's the link to your work??
Where's yours?
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Not a bad price $8000.00. This will kill the ZD & drive down the price of used Aptus 22 & 54s backs. The Phase body is that the AFDIII? If so how much is the DF body that is just released with this package?
Denis
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Hmmm... I was first told by the local dealer here that Aptus II 5 back only would be US$8K, and back plus PhaseOne 645 camera body and lens would be US$10K. Then the next day, she sent a correction saying that it would be US$10K for back only. I guess we'll wait till the dust settles.
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Even if the back plus camera, plus lens is 8k, why should I take that over a Nikon d3x or much more importantly, a sony a850, or canon 5d2. I have devoured the information on these boards for a while, but I can find a compelling reason aside from these things:
Sync Speed (you get a camera capable of leaf shutter lenses)
Lower Min Iso
Bigger Viewfinder
No AA Filter
Subjective Other Benefits:
You look more professional with a bigger camera
"better" lenses (though given the availability of zeiss glass on all of those platforms i would disagree)
"better" color
Is it really worth paying 8k or 10k for a digi back plus phase cam and 80mm lens for those benefits? I really don't think so. I have been waiting and watching eagerly to see what the market will produce before I take my next serious step up in digital, having been shooting with the d2x and the d300 since they came out. I don't even have that much lens investiture because I only buy what I use a LOT, so it certainly wouldn't bother me to move to a different system.
My point is that I just cannot see the cost benefit analysis working right for this. I think you may pull in a bunch of dentists who had not considered MF Digital because of the costs, but I don't think I know working pros who would drop 8 or 10 or 11 grand on a back that only provides those benefits.
Perhaps I am crazy.
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We have more information and prices on our website:
Leaf Aptus II 5 (http://www.peartreephoto.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1255702110&archive=&start_from=&ucat=&)
The back is going to be supplied with both Leaf Capture and Capture One DB plus please bear in mind that the Aptus is an open platform and can be attached to an extensive range of View Cameras.
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The only reason to shoot MFD, in my very humble opinion, is for the look of the larger chip and the availability of MF lenses. Resolution doesn't really matter unless you are selling giant prints (or want to be secure in the knowledge that your sunset picture can be printed at 40x60). Is this worth 8 large? The price of a D3x or M9? Maybe.
I am certainly not an MFDB fanboy, but this back produces the best file of any back, maybe the Leaf 75 is a little better. I think its a better file than the D3x, not by much, but there is a difference. What an MF back gives you over the Nikon is access to different lenses with a bigger chip, that gives you a different rendering. That's it. Is it worth the hassle of shooting a back? The limited iso, the strange screens, the need to tether, all that light you need? Maybe, maybe not. Its a tool in the tool box, and at $8k, certainly not that expensive. Not cheap, either, but not bad.
I have a 54s that I use only occassionaly on an RZ and a Sinar P. I mainly shoot motion now, but when I shoot stills, sometimes the Aptus comes out, sometimes I rent a D3x/1ds3, sometimes I shoot my M8, and sometimes I shoot film. It just depends on the project. So its not an either/or choice, in my opinion. If your work demands the look of MF, the rendering of the lenses, on a regular basis, buy one. If it doesn't, don't. Just rent if you need it. If you've been getting by with 1.5 crop sensors, I doubt your work requires the rendering from a big chip. A D3x will probably get much more use.
Even if the back plus camera, plus lens is 8k, why should I take that over a Nikon d3x or much more importantly, a sony a850, or canon 5d2. I have devoured the information on these boards for a while, but I can find a compelling reason aside from these things:
Sync Speed (you get a camera capable of leaf shutter lenses)
Lower Min Iso
Bigger Viewfinder
No AA Filter
Subjective Other Benefits:
You look more professional with a bigger camera
"better" lenses (though given the availability of zeiss glass on all of those platforms i would disagree)
"better" color
Is it really worth paying 8k or 10k for a digi back plus phase cam and 80mm lens for those benefits? I really don't think so. I have been waiting and watching eagerly to see what the market will produce before I take my next serious step up in digital, having been shooting with the d2x and the d300 since they came out. I don't even have that much lens investiture because I only buy what I use a LOT, so it certainly wouldn't bother me to move to a different system.
My point is that I just cannot see the cost benefit analysis working right for this. I think you may pull in a bunch of dentists who had not considered MF Digital because of the costs, but I don't think I know working pros who would drop 8 or 10 or 11 grand on a back that only provides those benefits.
Perhaps I am crazy.
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Will the new Aptus II 5 work with the new DF body and leaf lenses?
Bill
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Even if the back plus camera, plus lens is 8k, why should I take that over a Nikon d3x or much more importantly, a sony a850, or canon 5d2. I have devoured the information on these boards for a while, but I can find a compelling reason aside from these things:
Sync Speed (you get a camera capable of leaf shutter lenses)
Lower Min Iso
Bigger Viewfinder
No AA Filter
Subjective Other Benefits:
You look more professional with a bigger camera
"better" lenses (though given the availability of zeiss glass on all of those platforms i would disagree)
"better" color
Is it really worth paying 8k or 10k for a digi back plus phase cam and 80mm lens for those benefits? I really don't think so. I have been waiting and watching eagerly to see what the market will produce before I take my next serious step up in digital, having been shooting with the d2x and the d300 since they came out. I don't even have that much lens investiture because I only buy what I use a LOT, so it certainly wouldn't bother me to move to a different system.
My point is that I just cannot see the cost benefit analysis working right for this. I think you may pull in a bunch of dentists who had not considered MF Digital because of the costs, but I don't think I know working pros who would drop 8 or 10 or 11 grand on a back that only provides those benefits.
Perhaps I am crazy.
For me its about the size of the sensor. It surprises me that the issue of the "look" (regardless of MP) of MF pictures only occationally is discussed in these forums. For me, the "feel" of pictures taken by a larger sensor is the main point of shooting MF. Its like they just "sit" better / seem more real. The market is saturated with people shooting dslr and shooting MF gives you a different and more professional look in your pictures. I started out shooting MF and I could never go back to 35. To me the new Aptus-II 5 is the (almost) perfect back (I shoot mostly fashion), except that I would like it to shoot 2 f/s and dont see why this is not possible as the Aptus II 10 shoots at 1.1 s/f and the file is more than 2 times larger.
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This is exactly my main concern with this sensor: If you shoot mostly fashion will you please be kind to tell us more about your encounters with moire and how you cope? And yes, it is the look I'm interested. Most of the times I can see it on the net pics. Sometimes I can't tell a difference though.
Thanks
Eduardo
For me its about the size of the sensor. It surprises me that the issue of the "look" (regardless of MP) of MF pictures only occationally is discussed in these forums. For me, the "feel" of pictures taken by a larger sensor is the main point of shooting MF. Its like they just "sit" better / seem more real. The market is saturated with people shooting dslr and shooting MF gives you a different and more professional look in your pictures. I started out shooting MF and I could never go back to 35. To me the new Aptus-II 5 is the (almost) perfect back (I shoot mostly fashion), except that I would like it to shoot 2 f/s and dont see why this is not possible as the Aptus II 10 shoots at 1.1 s/f and the file is more than 2 times larger.
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Will the new Aptus II 5 work with the new DF body and leaf lenses?
Bill
Yes of course it will
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For me its about the size of the sensor. It surprises me that the issue of the "look" (regardless of MP) of MF pictures only occationally is discussed in these forums. For me, the "feel" of pictures taken by a larger sensor is the main point of shooting MF. Its like they just "sit" better / seem more real. The market is saturated with people shooting dslr and shooting MF gives you a different and more professional look in your pictures. I started out shooting MF and I could never go back to 35. To me the new Aptus-II 5 is the (almost) perfect back (I shoot mostly fashion), except that I would like it to shoot 2 f/s and dont see why this is not possible as the Aptus II 10 shoots at 1.1 s/f and the file is more than 2 times larger.
If you want this mysterious and hard to nail down 'look' i think your looking in the wrong place with these puny mfd sensors, medium format use to be 6x7 or 6x8, possibly 6x6 if you were on a budget, but 'back in the day' if you mentioned 6 x 4.5 you would hear the sniggers from the back of the room. If you want the 'look' then you better get a large format, preferably a 10-8 and a few sheets of film.
I could be wrong, but if you can actually show me the difference in the 'look' between these mfd's and a 35mm digital with an example, then i will eat my screen!
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If you want this mysterious and hard to nail down 'look' i think your looking in the wrong place with these puny mfd sensors, medium format use to be 6x7 or 6x8, possibly 6x6 if you were on a budget, but 'back in the day' if you mentioned 6 x 4.5 you would hear the sniggers from the back of the room. If you want the 'look' then you better get a large format, preferably a 10-8 and a few sheets of film.
I could be wrong, but if you can actually show me the difference in the 'look' between these mfd's and a 35mm digital with an example, then i will eat my screen!
I completely agree. I agree about the sniggers too.
Are there other brands of backs that have the large sensor, similar to the P65+? Agreed, when dealing with tiny differences between Canon sensor size and some of the MF sizes, the importance is to get the largest sensor possible. (Unless that sensor is 45 grand).
I think when people talk about this mysterious difference between 35 and MF, they are seeing two distinct differences:
* CCD with no anti-alias, versus CMOS.
* Difference in optics, and the way that optics render focus with larger formats.
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I think when people talk about this mysterious difference between 35 and MF, they are seeing two distinct differences:
* CCD with no anti-alias, versus CMOS.
* Difference in optics, and the way that optics render focus with larger formats.
Yes. The backs can look different. It was worth it to me to buy an Aptus 54s, for when I want the look. It was cheap-, used, from a friend going out of business. You can get really, really close with fast lenses on 35mm. I love the Canon 85L and 135L. Easier than lugging around the old RZ, as well.
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Hmmm... I was first told by the local dealer here that Aptus II 5 back only would be US$8K, and back plus PhaseOne 645 camera body and lens would be US$10K. Then the next day, she sent a correction saying that it would be US$10K for back only. I guess we'll wait till the dust settles.
The Aptus II 5 is $7995 for the back only. The promotion for the 645 body with an 80mm lens is an additional $2000. $9995 total.
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The Aptus II 5 is $7995 for the back only. The promotion for the 645 body with an 80mm lens is an additional $2000. $9995 total.
Hi Chris,
Does the promotion include the option of the new 645DF Body and Aptus II 5 ?
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... medium format use to be 6x7 or 6x8, possibly 6x6 if you were on a budget ...
Really? I thought that "back in the day", the MF systems of greatest prestige and widest professional usage were from Hasselblad and Rollei, in 6x6 and not commonly considered as low budget options.
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i don't get why leaf/phase does not bring this into d3x territory....because, really, the d3x is too expensive....do the back with the DF body for 8000$.....so anyone who shoots studio, does not need the high iso and the faster AF really has a choice...with this price you can still get a d3x with 2 or 3 nice lenses for the same price and get the same quality up to 11x14 or all commercial applications.....for someone looking for the tool to shoot ANY job, they will still get the 5dII for 25% and pay for a killer mailer....
the only real reason to go with this back is the DF camera and the schneider lenses....and if that package is 11000 or 12000 it is just too much again....
anyone who has ever shot with DMF knows that you don't get a real MF look with any back...the look comes form the larger capture size and 36x48 is still smaller then 645 which even in film days was considered more like 35mm then MF which starts at 6x6 or 6x7....the fujis with 6x8 and 6x9 (and 6x17!) were a true step up from 35 (and from 645)......
also: there is nothing worse then the castrated viewfinders...i honest to god do not understand what is so difficult of expensive about just magnifying the viewfinder image a tad? at least to bring it up to the "full" 645 (which is laughable for MF standards....)...has anyone actually ever taken the Dback off and shot a couple of rolls?
i have always liked the mamiya 645 system, great ergonomics, good price, great lenses (ok, some dogs as well...) but a great system which has never failed me (which is more then i can say about all the others...) and the DF with the schneider leaf lenses makes is really the system to beat....but the real competition is canon and nikon....amateurs and semi pros will go for the name and recommendation of the salesperson which will probably be hasselblad....regardless of what mamiya/phase/leaf do.....mamiya=plastic....hasselblad=quality....that is engrained somewhere....that schneider optics blow everything out of the water not only with raw performance but also with beautiful rendering does not register with people who read lens performance tests at bedtime...
aptus 5 with the DF and a schneider 80 for 9000....i still would not buy it but for someone who thinks they need it and that it will take their photography to the next level it is hard to turn down....
the whole MF market can be summed up with the old but more true then ever ansel adams: nothing worse then a sharp (edit: and super detailed) image of a fuzzy concept.....amazing how many large, terribly boring and incredibly sharp images come out of DMF.....that and HDR....
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We have more information and prices on our website:
Leaf Aptus II 5 (http://www.peartreephoto.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1255702110&archive=&start_from=&ucat=&)
The back is going to be supplied with both Leaf Capture and Capture One DB plus please bear in mind that the Aptus is an open platform and can be attached to an extensive range of View Cameras.
Hi If they follow the Euro pricing for the DF body & LS lens of 3000.00 USD that would be a good deal.
Denis
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Really? I thought that "back in the day", the MF systems of greatest prestige and widest professional usage were from Hasselblad and Rollei, in 6x6 and not commonly considered as low budget options.
Well the 6x6 reference was 'tongue in cheek', really inferring that medium format didnt start and end with 6x4.5, but the budget comment was in reference to the film usage, the main reason for shooting 6x4.5 was that you got a few extra frames on a roll of 120/220. A 6x8 was almost twice as expensive to run as a 6x4.5.
Having said that, Rollei's were considered prestige as you had to have a bag full of them as one body rarely made through a roll before it broke down.
You could get by with one Hassy body, they actually use to be reliable.
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Nice images John! Really like your style.
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Hi Chris,
Does the promotion include the option of the new 645DF Body and Aptus II 5 ?
Not from what I see, which is a special price on the recently superseded Phase One 645 AF body with Aptus-II 5 back.
The whole deal looks like deals for the price sensitive on older generation stuff ... which is fine, since it seems that a lot of MF users are wanting to step out of the expensive upgrade rat race, get a decent if not cutting edge kit at a manageable price, and stick with it for a while. (But can this kit use the new LS lenses?)
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Really? I thought that "back in the day", the MF systems of greatest prestige and widest professional usage were from Hasselblad and Rollei, in 6x6 and not commonly considered as low budget options.
After the Rolleicord, very few people in the US used Rollei. Most common MF in a studio was an RZ.
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Having said that, Rollei's were considered prestige as you had to have a bag full of them as one body rarely made through a roll before it broke down.
Slight exageration perhaps? My used 6008 has been put through 50,000 shots easily without a hiccup.
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Yair, do you have any info on whether those Mamiya DL28 and DL33 packages will eventually come with a DF body instead of an AFDIII body (like they do now)? And also, any word on a Mamiya DL22 package that would include a DF body and this new Aptus-II 5 back?
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The thing that's been sticking in the back of my mind, for the past few days, was one simple line written by James Russell, in one of these threads, it was something like "Give me something truly revolutionary, so my clients say That's amazing".
I have been thinking what that would look like. At this point in this digital evolution, it seems like we're ready again for something truly revolutionary, kinda like the Canon 1D was, or that D30, years ago.
What would that look like in MF? I simply want a camera that fits well in my hand, that shoots about 22MP, at about two frames a second, that's FULL FRAME no bullshit 645 sensor. And the kicker, it can't cost any more than about fifteen grand for the body and back together. That, to me, is the ONLY thing that is going to hold off the tidal wave of the next Canon/Nikon release. I read on canonrumors.com, that the next 1ds4 is predicted to be 32 megapixels -- if that is so, that's gonna steal a lot of thunder from anything that's overpriced in MF. That 32MP will sell for seven or eight k in USdollars, for what is, in a sense, a body and back together. So there is the bar -- can anything in MF come even remotely close to matching that. And let's not talk about that the next ASA in 35 will be 102,000. And no, that's not a typo. Can CCD compete with that?
http://www.canonrumors.com/2009/10/announc...er-20-2009-cr3/ (http://www.canonrumors.com/2009/10/announcement-october-20-2009-cr3/)
I should say, I am rooting for MF to pull their head out of the sand and see what's about to come at them, head on, down the tracks.
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The thing that's been sticking in the back of my mind, for the past few days, was one simple line written by James Russell, in one of these threads, it was something like "Give me something truly revolutionary, so my clients say That's amazing".
I have been thinking what that would look like. At this point in this digital evolution, it seems like we're ready again for something truly revolutionary, kinda like the Canon 1D was, or that D30, years ago.
What would that look like in MF? I simply want a camera that fits well in my hand, that shoots about 22MP, at about two frames a second, that's FULL FRAME no bullshit 645 sensor. And the kicker, it can't cost any more than about fifteen grand for the body and back together. That, to me, is the ONLY thing that is going to hold off the tidal wave of the next Canon/Nikon release. I read on canonrumors.com, that the next 1ds4 is predicted to be 32 megapixels -- if that is so, that's gonna steal a lot of thunder from anything that's overpriced in MF. That 32MP will sell for seven or eight k in USdollars, for what is, in a sense, a body and back together. So there is the bar -- can anything in MF come even remotely close to matching that. And let's not talk about that the next ASA in 35 will be 102,000. And no, that's not a typo. Can CCD compete with that?
I should say, I am rooting for MF to pull their head out of the sand and see what's about to come at them, head on, down the tracks.
Must say I have been watching this MFDB thing for a few years.
If I can not buy something like the 645DF with the Aptus II 5 for under 10K, then I will be watching a bit longer.
At this point, I have learned to be patient.
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The thing that's been sticking in the back of my mind, for the past few days, was one simple line written by James Russell, in one of these threads, it was something like "Give me something truly revolutionary, so my clients say That's amazing".
I have been thinking what that would look like. At this point in this digital evolution, it seems like we're ready again for something truly revolutionary, kinda like the Canon 1D was, or that D30, years ago.
What would that look like in MF? I simply want a camera that fits well in my hand, that shoots about 22MP, at about two frames a second, that's FULL FRAME no bullshit 645 sensor. And the kicker, it can't cost any more than about fifteen grand for the body and back together. That, to me, is the ONLY thing that is going to hold off the tidal wave of the next Canon/Nikon release. I read on canonrumors.com, that the next 1ds4 is predicted to be 32 megapixels -- if that is so, that's gonna steal a lot of thunder from anything that's overpriced in MF. That 32MP will sell for seven or eight k in USdollars, for what is, in a sense, a body and back together. So there is the bar -- can anything in MF come even remotely close to matching that. And let's not talk about that the next ASA in 35 will be 102,000. And no, that's not a typo. Can CCD compete with that?
I should say, I am rooting for MF to pull their head out of the sand and see what's about to come at them, head on, down the tracks.
And the 1Ds4 will probably do video....and clean ISO 6400. However won't it be diffraction limited to f/8 or larger? Also I'm betting that it will actually have even less dynamic range than its predecessor. That's just what the pixel peeps, panogeeks and stitcher freaks want - they can shoot multiple frames and focus stack, stitch and HDR blend until their hearts content or maybe they'll just talk about it? (note: you know who you are - please control yourselves this is not an invitation to ruin another thread) Problem also is its a lot harder to get glass to match 32mpix in 24x36mm format - much easier when you have 36x48 or larger. Glad to see phase/leaf taking the glass seriously as its going to be ever more important.
This Aptus 5 might be great with the schneider glass.
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At this point in this digital evolution, it seems like we're ready again for something truly revolutionary, kinda like the Canon 1D was, or that D30, years ago.
My thoughts exactly... I've continuously struggled with the decision to get into MF. At first from a budget standpoint... now that I can afford it, I'm not sure I want to drop the money with the canikon onslaught on the move. I clearly see the difference in the files that comes from the big sensor/different glass... and I'm not sure I'd need more than 22mp.
... but I'm just so tired of the cameras being a compromise of sorts. I've tested a few bodies and did enjoy the more deliberate process. LOVED the files.
But still... I'm ready for some revolution. 22mp & 2fps sounds perfect if you ask me. Get the back, body, and an 80 as a package @ $8k and I think you're almost there. I love the idea of taking canikon on at it's own price point, especially given the less than crystalline IQ from the d3x and the lack of zing in the 1dsIII files.
Ah, but the 5dmkII... As much as I don't really care for mine, the value proposition is too damned hard to beat (like the a900).
Well, we're headed in the right direction at least.
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Oh... and why doesn't anyone other than sinar make rollei-fit backs? Everyone's creaming about the schneider glass now that Phamiya has partnered up, but when I was first investigating MF several years back I REALLY found the look of the 6008 series glass from schneider to be fantastic, and that system gets almost no cred.
Everyone says "it's all about the glass", but no one walks that walk, lol... ok the S2 is gonna walk that walk, but that thread is in polar opposite from the aptusII-5 thread on basis of price alone.
I still find myself looking into a 6008af system just for the glass and sync speed, but then the reality of how little the mf back makers support the rollei system smacks me in the face. I still check ebay prices on the 6008 equipment. I'm not saying (for one second) the market needs to got the way of Rollei, but those cameras were/are indeed different. The aptusII-5 is semi-revolutionary on one front only... price.
Maybe the pentax will be "different" (if it every makes it out of development)
One last thought... I'd LOVE to see a very simple, stupidly rigid mf-digital view camera NOT made by a company who thinks their cameras are made of diamonds (and priced accordingly). The engineering traditions still left over from Britain in both India and China could make this very possible. We're talking simple stuff (in concept)... beefy gear-driven standards with accurate detents, built on the scale of a 6x9 camera for use with a DB. Photoclam's version of the arca cube is one example of such a product. Not cheap... but not priced like fine jewelry. Maybe like a chamonix version of the m-line2, but an actually different design that is simplified and paired down while offering precision and rigidity.
An aptusII-5 on a small metal/carbon-fiber view camera would be killer for art portraiture and architectural/product work.
Maybe the cheaper back frees up the capital to be spent on a nicer camera system.... is that the revolution we're all looking for? Wish I knew.
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Oh... and why doesn't anyone other than sinar make rollei-fit backs? Everyone's creaming about the schneider glass now that Phamiya has partnered up, but when I was first investigating MF several years back I REALLY found the look of the 6008 series glass from schneider to be fantastic, and that system gets almost no cred.
Everyone says "it's all about the glass", but no one walks that walk, lol....
.
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I'm still shooting the 6008AF - love it. Love the lenses for this system. Though everything just keeps working great on my 6008 AF, I would have eventually migrated to the Hy6/AFi and may still if someone picks it back up.
Yair - how come Leaf never made backs for the Rollei 6000 system?
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the thing I cannot realize is why Rodenstock and schneider(well now schneider with Phase) didn't enter the MFD digital-designed lenses, partnering with MF manufacturers like Phase and Leaf earlier. I mean, hasn't it only been in the last few years since the high megapixel backs have been rolling out that people really start to look at upping the lens designs for the higher resolving power of the sensors from the film-era, which worked totally fine for film? But now that we have digital, many think that the film lenses need to meet the dumpster for a date, but sadly, its true. Many of these lenses can resolve high enough for most work. Now, I've seen some terrific pictures( I hate calling them images) that have been taken on DB's(mainly my friends Aptus 75s) with film LF/MF lenses. these files are clean, super sharp(recent LF schneider and Nikkor glass), and don't seem to have the problem with color fringing like some of these new 'digital' lenses do. you'd think that the manufacturers would release a 'flawless' product for such an insane amount of money they charge?
why wouldn't rodenstock and schneider have jumped into the foray of MFD lens design earlier? Now, I know that there are going to be people who think that Hassy V glass and 6000 series glass is perfectly fine for the sensors, but compared to the new digitar lenses, they simply don't compare IMO, yes, In My Opinion.
imagine if they thought: "lets design the best we can for 1/2 the price". they could do it. will they eventually? not likely. regrettably.....
I still shoot film primarily for my work (4x5 and 6x7), and have drum scans done(when my budget can afford it, i have to eat :munch:
it is exciting to see all this glorious competition between these companies, trying to 'one-up' each other with every new model. I can't afford it though, and I don't know that even if I could, I would buy it.
just my .02c
-Dan
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Yair, do you have any info on whether those Mamiya DL28 and DL33 packages will eventually come with a DF body instead of an AFDIII body (like they do now)? And also, any word on a Mamiya DL22 package that would include a DF body and this new Aptus-II 5 back?
I believe I saw a press release somewhere from Mamiya US about their new DM line with 22-56 MP and optional DF cameras at the higher end, you should check with MAC.
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Hi Chris,
Does the promotion include the option of the new 645DF Body and Aptus II 5 ?
Add another €1,000 for a Phase One 645DF body and an 80mm LS lens
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I believe I saw a press release somewhere from Mamiya US about their new DM line with 22-56 MP and optional DF cameras at the higher end, you should check with MAC.
Cool, I found it, thanks: http://www.photographyblog.com/news/mamiya...m_28_dm33_dm56/ (http://www.photographyblog.com/news/mamiya_dm22_dm_28_dm33_dm56/)
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Hasselblad keeps on with its 50, 60 , 100 MP , why did they stop their H3D II 22mp ? , they could now do a H4D 22
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Hasselblad keeps on with its 50, 60 , 100 MP , why did they stop their H3D II 22mp ? , they could now do a H4D 22
The KAF-22000 sensor has been out of production for quite a long time
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The KAF-22000 sensor has been out of production for quite a long time
Why would they keep a 22mp sensor around?
No offense meant, but 22mp on a 48x36 back was for me a moire machine. Pattern moire, not just color.
Could have just be the perfect storm, but I saw a lot of perfect storms.
In fact more megapixels to fight moire has and probably always will be a large selling point for the makers to go to higher count sensors.
BC
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Having said that, Rollei's were considered prestige as you had to have a bag full of them as one body rarely made through a roll before it broke down.
You could get by with one Hassy body, they actually use to be reliable.
Well, that may be your experience but mine is the opposite. Sorry...
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I'm still shooting the 6008AF - love it. Love the lenses for this system. Though everything just keeps working great on my 6008 AF, I would have eventually migrated to the Hy6/AFi and may still if someone picks it back up.
Yair - how come Leaf never made backs for the Rollei 6000 system?
Hi Eric, got my new Hy6 from Franke & Heidecke just a few weeks ago. FYI, Franke & Heidecke is still doing its business and the prospects for continued activity look good. Also, Sinar has announced continued full support for the Hy6. I believe this system is not dead at all.
On the 6008 AF, compatible digital backs are only made by Sinar and PhaseOne (there was/is a OEM'ed Rollei DB20p back, which is a PhaseOne P20, and newer PhaseOne backs can be ordered with 6008 AF mount through the dealer).
Pascal
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I'll begin this with sorry for the long ramble.
Yesterday, had a semi low pressured shoot, both interior location then beach location.
For whatever reason I thought I shoot it with the Contax and Phase rather than the Canons and Nikons.
I haven't really touched the Contax in 9 months, except to shoot an image, then say to heck with it and shoot the Canons, so not to be tempted I didn't even bring the Canons as backup.
Also I wanted to shoot low horizontal so the waist level finder is much easier on me and the subject so after a day I have a few notes, let me look . . . I wrote them somewhere on an old kodak film box . . . ok found them.
Note to Phase.
Get rid of those four "soft" buttons, either that or give us a way to lock them out. It took me a few minutes to "remember" what they all did, but shooting low, knees in the sand on the beach and placing the camera in my lap always turned something on like the histogram or some grayed out stuff telling me about the file. Speaking of 4 buttons, who thought up the zoom in feature to check focus. OK I know the lcd is limited in use, I know it's small, but its like playing a pong game with a grand theft auto controller trying to figure out how to move that little cursor around to check focus.
Somebody please loan Phase a 5d2 to see that focus check button on the back. Two clicks, boom-boom, one move and you can see everything. It's so easy it's crazy easy.
Note to Contax (or whoever owns Contax).
I forgot what a great camera the Contax is and the lovely noise it makes when you use the waist level finder. It just smooth, click, smooth, click.
The lenses are super sharp without a bunch of mumbo jumbo software correction features and the camera is so rock solid is nuts. I know somebody smart probably looked at the medium format market and thought uh-uh, we ain't going down that road anymore, but come on, if Phase can spend the money to resurrect the plastic Mamiya, if anyone could contemplate saving the half built HY6, then there had to be some market for the Contax. Waist level finder, right angle grip, smooth as buttah shutter and mirror. Who the hell let that camera disappear?
Note to Phase One Software guys.
An assistant did me a "favor" and tethered me to version 4. I haven't tethered to version 4 ever except an early test when it came out and realized I wasn't going to beta test this thing until it got to version 5 point 7 something but yesterday I looked at the computer and instead of that familiar no nonsense white screen I saw that grey thing that has 24 tabs and thought well since it's running I'd give it a try and every-time I changed lenses, it would disconnect the camera. I bought Phase for the stability of the software and tethering and though I gotta admit I'm not a version 4 expert, just changing lenses shouldn't shut it down.
Last night when I processed the files, I thought ok I'd try version 4, but they just looked prettier, (I know that covers a lot of territory) in 3.78 so I used what I know, life was easy and I made the deadline.
Once again, somebody please loan phase a Canon with that EOS utility disk. I know it's dumb tethering software but anyone that owns an Iphone can learn to work it in about 3 minutes. Version 4 must take a class to really learn it . . . a very long class.
Note to anyone buying a medium format back.
Buy the p21+ and old Aptus 22, the Hasselblad p21 version (whatever that is) and some stickers that say P900, or Aptus 656 and stop worrying about spending twenty gazillion dollars. That back shoots a beautiful file, is detailed and unless you spend years with your nose on a 30" screen it shoots really pretty, really film-like (i know that also covers a lot of territory).
In fact spend another $100 on one of those dog shock collars. Every-time you think about "upgrading" just hit the button and knock yourself to the floor.
Since most people reading this are photographers it will take a year or so of shock training to understand you don't really need 8 billion pixels and have to sell the car just to own a medium format back that works. Nobody will know the difference and you'll have a lot more time to shoot rather than learn a bunch of stuff you don't need to learn anyway.
Note to self.
Shoot more with the P21+ and sell the p30+. The difference is just night and day when shooting. The p21+ just shoots when you press the button, the p30+ you shoot and count 1 thousand one one thou...click,
Put a spam blocker that stops all Calumet and Phase offers. Don't temp myself to buy anything other than more batteries for the contax.
Last note to Phase.
How about a firmware upgrade to give us a black and white option on the lcd? I know the lcd sucks, I know it's hard to tell it's color anyway, but yesterday the AD wanted to see the shot in black and white and I had to say naw there's no black and white function on here. but don't worry I'll do it when I process. Every camera on the planet has a black and white function.
Please throw away that paper mask that comes with the back. If you put it where it belongs (under the ground glass) everything is back focused. If you put it on top, it bows and of course doesn't give exact framing. Come one guys, stop being cheap, at least put Bill Maxwells phone number in the Phase One box so you can get the cropping without having to jury rig black photo tape.
Now please, please don't get rid of version 3. I know it's old, I know it's got a white background and the type design came from a ms-dos word processor, but it works and if it does crash when you shoot 500 files to a folder at least it starts back up fast and doesn't lose anything.
Version 4 is so heavy so many tabs nobody has time for it under even a light pressured project.
Note to all camera makers.
Go to Samy's with a wobbly TV tray under your arm. Sit it up and put every camera on the tray and shoot a frame. Watch the TV tray jump. Then do this with the Contax and notice how smooth it is.
Then try to change the Fstop and shutter on every camera made and realize some knobs goes one way, another wheel the other, then try the contax. It's got a real shutter dial with numbers a real F stop ring on the lens (also with numbers).
That's the goal.
Second note to self.
Do not buy any more cameras. What I own works, stop messing around. Go to the Pit Bull shop in East LA and buy that shock collar.
Spend more time using what I got, what I know and less time in front of the computer learning something that doesn't really change anything.
Since medium format wants to live in the film era of cameras, then fine, I'll just treat it like a film camera.
Shoot more with the p21+.
BC
Best argument yet for me not bothering with MF backs for anything but personal work or as a hobby.
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Best argument yet for me not bothering with MF backs for anything but personal work or as a hobby.
Actually, I didn't mean to say medium format doesn't have a place for commerce, I just think from a p30 to a p40+ your not changing anything that much in the final image.
Medium format really is like a film camera, probably because their legacy is based on film cameras, at least from the film plane forward.
Given that, just shoot it like you shot film, take what comes and don't get too caught up in pixel peeping, ca, blooming defecation or anything that takes your thoughts away from the photograph and puts it onto the box on top of the tripod.
Where all of this falls down is when we compare medium format next to a modern dslr which offers everything from fast frames rates, mega detailed lcds and even video.
Those are the leaps and bounds cameras, but once again it doesn't mean that if your taking a traditional still photograph a traditional film type of camera with a digital back is not rewarding.
It also is nice to look at that 4:3 crop. It looks like stills, acts like stills and to some extent takes me back to an era I enjoyed.
Now, if I was to do it all again, I'd probably own different cameras for different reasons. I like the way that Hasselblad company markets and presents itself, love their website and Victor magazine and feel that there is still some legacy left over from the Victor days, including an F2 lens and a waist level finder. Maybe not a lot, but some.
So IMO there is a place for a medium format camera, but the conditions and the mindset have to be right.
In fact if I was Hasselblad, I'd forget about talking digital and start talking photograhic art. Sell the digital cameras as they sold the film cameras, with the legacy, the quality and the history all part of the package.
Oh yea, also sell the skin tones, cause the only time I tested a blad it had the prettiest skin tones of all out of the camera. I didn't go that direction because the blad I used was early production and slow and Phocus was not out yet and though I thought Flexcolor was ok, it wasn't what I wanted for high production, but anyway, those skin tones were nice.
BC
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Hi Eric, got my new Hy6 from Franke & Heidecke just a few weeks ago. FYI, Franke & Heidecke is still doing its business and the prospects for continued activity look good. Also, Sinar has announced continued full support for the Hy6. I believe this system is not dead at all.
On the 6008 AF, compatible digital backs are only made by Sinar and PhaseOne (there was/is a OEM'ed Rollei DB20p back, which is a PhaseOne P20, and newer PhaseOne backs can be ordered with 6008 AF mount through the dealer).
Pascal
Hi Pascal,
Yes, I also have the phase db20p back on my 6008AF. It's a great set-up. Also I can concur with you on reliability - certainly not what i've seen. Recently I borrowed a 40 year old 2.8F Rollei TLR from a friend that had not been used for a dozen years or more and put about 50 rolls of film through it. Everything worked including the meter - perfect and what a joy to not need batteries or anything else. I was really impressed. I've had very few problems with my 6000 series gear too.
Eric
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Not a bad price $8000.00. This will kill the ZD & drive down the price of used Aptus 22 & 54s backs. The Phase body is that the AFDIII? If so how much is the DF body that is just released with this package?
Denis
Ehhhh the Mamiya ZD back costs only $3700 new.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/5859...el_Digital.html (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/585949-REG/Mamiya_310_120_ZDb_22_Megapixel_Digital.html)
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I think the new Aptus II 5 seems like a great backup solution for those with 6's, 7's, or 10's. Or for those wanting to separate themselves from the 35mm look for the same dollars as a new D3x.
When did you think that you could afford to have two backs? I'm not rich or crazy. I just think it may be easier to have the two backs on location and to be able to leave a second format at home...
Unless you need the versatility that a backup 35mm system offers.
Sure I wish the MF backs were even cheaper but this looks pretty good.
Robb
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Ehhhh the Mamiya ZD back costs only $3700 new.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/5859...el_Digital.html (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/585949-REG/Mamiya_310_120_ZDb_22_Megapixel_Digital.html)
Make sure you read this part:
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BH Important Notice!
This item cannot be returned or exchanged unless defective
***
You better make sure you really want that ZD before you plunk down the money. I don't know if this is a new price, as we still show $6,999 on our Mamiya price list. Could be they're just blowing out the remainder of the inventory. Wouldn't surprise me to see them discontinued in light of the potential, though no yet established Mamiya-branded OEM Leaf or Phase backs distributed through Mac Group.
Steve Hendrix
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Make sure you read this part:
***
BH Important Notice!
This item cannot be returned or exchanged unless defective
***
You better make sure you really want that ZD before you plunk down the money. I don't know if this is a new price, as we still show $6,999 on our Mamiya price list. Could be they're just blowing out the remainder of the inventory. Wouldn't surprise me to see them discontinued in light of the potential, though no yet established Mamiya-branded OEM Leaf or Phase backs distributed through Mac Group.
Steve Hendrix
The Mamiya ZD is an old design (and somewhat dated) but so is the "new" Leaf back. We could spend forever wondering why it's only $3700 but in the end of the day the price for a new Mamiya ZD digital back is $3700 and no use in pretending it is $6999.
I actually think it's typical for the medium format industry, pretending the 20mp+ full-frame DSLR's do not exist. No matter how much we like medium-format it's undeniable that pricing of digital backs has been in no touch with reality. Large majority of professional photographers were using medium format gear before the digital age, of the five professional studio and event photographers I know personally all stopped using film when the original Canon 5D came out few years ago and have sold their Hasselblads and Mamiyas or have dug'em into a box in the garage. And landscape/nature guy's it's even more hopeless. I occationally use my Mamiya 7 film camera if I feel I need the added resolution but mostly I use it for fun/nerdishm. The $3700 sticker for the Mamiya ZD back is the first time a digital back is priced for the real world, even if it's a little late, and guys like me might actually think seriously about buying. Dropping the price to $8000 for an entry level old technology Leaf back is a tiny step forward but will still send you above $10.000 for a camera+back combination witch is still too expensive.
Best, Hrannar
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The Mamiya ZD is an old design (and somewhat dated) but so is the "new" Leaf back. We could spend forever wondering why it's only $3700 but in the end of the day the price for a new Mamiya ZD digital back is $3700 and no use in pretending it is $6999.
I actually think it's typical for the medium format industry, pretending the 20mp+ full-frame DSLR's do not exist. No matter how much we like medium-format it's undeniable that pricing of digital backs has been in no touch with reality. Large majority of professional photographers were using medium format gear before the digital age, of the five professional studio and event photographers I know personally all stopped using film when the original Canon 5D came out few years ago and have sold their Hasselblads and Mamiyas or have dug'em into a box in the garage. And landscape/nature guy's it's even more hopeless. I occationally use my Mamiya 7 film camera if I feel I need the added resolution but mostly I use it for fun/nerdishm. The $3700 sticker for the Mamiya ZD back is the first time a digital back is priced for the real world, even if it's a little late, and guys like me might actually think seriously about buying. Dropping the price to $8000 for an entry level old technology Leaf back is a tiny step forward but will still send you above $10.000 for a camera+back combination witch is still too expensive.
Best, Hrannar
The actual USA list price of a Mamiya ZD is $6,900. I can tell you that the price listed on BH is either a misprint or some sort of blow out purchase. The price they list is nearly $3,000 below USA dealer cost. Take it for what it is worth. And considering the hit rate of the ZD, I would take the no refund policy very seriously.
The pricing on the Aptus 5 with a camera + back is under $10,000, which is the same USA list price as the Mamiya ZDb camera + back.
Steve Hendrix
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It's definitely NOT a misprint. The ZDb is now $3699, and the Mamiya body with back is only $7,399.95.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/6056...SLR_System.html (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/605694-REG/Mamiya_310_150_645ZDb_Digital_SLR_System.html)
Still overpriced if you ask me.
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It's definitely NOT a misprint. The ZDb is now $3699, and the Mamiya body with back is only $7,399.95.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/6056...SLR_System.html (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/605694-REG/Mamiya_310_150_645ZDb_Digital_SLR_System.html)
Still overpriced if you ask me.
Wow that is getting cheap! If it could do ISO 400 I would be all over it.
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It's definitely NOT a misprint. The ZDb is now $3699, and the Mamiya body with back is only $7,399.95.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/6056...SLR_System.html (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/605694-REG/Mamiya_310_150_645ZDb_Digital_SLR_System.html)
Still overpriced if you ask me.
It may not be a misprint. If it is not - and I am awaiting a response from Mamiya at this point - my guess is that with the likely advent of Mamiya branded OEM Leaf and/or Phase One digital backs, the ZD is probably done and this is a blow out to BH to get rid of the remainder.
Steve Hendrix
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At $3,699 it's still overpriced by almost $3,700. The ZD was a failed experiment and is being relegated to the proverbial scrap-heap of history. The Aptus 5, on the other hand, is a proven, quality instrument at what, for MFDBs, an attractive entry level price.
One of these is a toy, the other a tool. No serious photographer with clients and accounts on the line would trust the ZD. Aptus' are rock solid by comparison. This is appels and oranges.
- my2c.
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The Aptus 5, on the other hand, is a proven, quality instrument ...
The Aptus backs in general are, but the Aptus-II 5 is brand new, so not quite "proven" yet.
And it uses exactly the same 2004 vintage, "ISO 400 with a tailwind" sensor as the ZD backs and bodies, for those who care about low light handling. In fact, I wonder if Mamiya has a stock or purchasing obligation left from a volume purchase agreement for sensors for the poor selling ZD models: it was widely said that the low ZD pricing was based in part on a discount for a commitment to a volume purchase of the sensors.
There is a reason why
- the Aptus-II 5 with its 2004 era 48x36mm sensor with 22 million 9 micron photosites sensor offers only ISO 25-400.
while
- the Aptus-II 7 with its 2006 era 48x36mm sensor with 33 million 7.2 micron micron photosites sensor offers ISO 50-800.
The newer, higher res. sensor has about one third the dark current, half the fixed pattern noise, and 30% less "electrons" worth of amplifier noise. (Along with twice the charge to voltage conversion factor in the amplifiers.) This seems to add up to better "image level" noise characteristics.
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I think the AFi/Hy6 is a dead end unless a manufacturer picks it back up and continues the line.
The AFi backs were never REVOLVING just rotating, which was lame at best. Leaf never got around to having a revolving mount, Sinar did I believe.
Every time we buy anything, there is no true guarantee support or new product availability will be there in the future. Some products hit a dead end faster than others.
Sorry? I wasn't aware we had any problem with our Sinar HY6 (http://www.image2output.com/prodlist.aspx?cat=48) - No I've just checked and its all ok- even more I see we are offering some support for AFi and Rollei HY6 cameras also and there are new packages too
Edwin
ps. and of course Sinar have a Portrait/Landscape, click-click, rotating adaptor that is a beautiful piece of swiss precision engineering
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Sorry? I wasn't aware we had any problem with our Sinar HY6 (http://www.image2output.com/prodlist.aspx?cat=48) - No I've just checked and its all ok- even more I see we are offering some support for AFi and Rollei HY6 cameras also B) and there are new packages too
Edwin
ps. and of course Sinar have a Portrait/Landscape, click-click, rotating adaptor that is a beautiful piece of swiss precision engineering
John is in the States. Few people in the states have seen a working Hy6, so to John the Hy6 never really entered the head space. The marketing was so piss poor in the US that I never really knew if the back rotated or not.
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I'm unaware of any sales or repair infrastructure for the Hy6/ AFi in the US.
Does anyone have any information on this?
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I'm unaware of any sales or repair infrastructure for the Hy6/ AFi in the US.
Does anyone have any information on this?
John,
The Hy6 would be thru Sinar, which is distributed thru Bron Imaging Group in the United States. www.bronimaginggroup.com Repair is shipped overseas to Sinar in Switzerland.
The AFI is not being supported by Leaf Imaging currently. Any remaining stock would be sold thru MAC group. www.macgroupus.com
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The Aptus backs in general are, but the Aptus-II 5 is brand new, so not quite "proven" yet.
And it uses exactly the same 2004 vintage, "ISO 400 with a tailwind" sensor as the ZD backs and bodies, for those who care about low light handling. In fact, I wonder if Mamiya has a stock or purchasing obligation left from a volume purchase agreement for sensors for the poor selling ZD models: it was widely said that the low ZD pricing was based in part on a discount for a commitment to a volume purchase of the sensors.
There is a reason why
- the Aptus-II 5 with its 2004 era 48x36mm sensor with 22 million 9 micron photosites sensor offers only ISO 25-400.
while
- the Aptus-II 7 with its 2006 era 48x36mm sensor with 33 million 7.2 micron micron photosites sensor offers ISO 50-800.
The newer, higher res. sensor has about one third the dark current, half the fixed pattern noise, and 30% less "electrons" worth of amplifier noise. (Along with twice the charge to voltage conversion factor in the amplifiers.) This seems to add up to better "image level" noise characteristics.
BJL, no offence but can I ask you if you have ever handled an Aptus back and/ or taken any photographs with one?
The Dalsa 22MP (which BTW is still in production, unlike other 22MP chips) is considered, by many, to be one of the finest CCDs ever made and as one that is cable of producing, given the right conditions and mounted inside an Aptus, Aptus S or Aptus-II (or even a Valeo), the sharpest, cleanest and richest files compared to most if not all other digital capture devices.
Have a look at Peter Yang's photo which has won him the ASME's "Best Magazine Cover of The Year" (http://www.magazine.org/asme/2009-best-magazine-cover-winners-finalists.aspx) and guess which back it was shot with. Peter has another, bigger back but he chose to use his Aptus 22 for this job.
The Aptus-II 5 is based on the WELL PROVEN technology from the Aptus 22 and Aptus 54S and combines it with some other improvements taken from the other mambers of the Aptus-II family.
Let me know if you would like to see some vintage file from these backs.
Yair
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BJL, no offence but can I ask you if you have ever handled an Aptus back and/ or taken any photographs with one?
The Dalsa 22MP (which BTW is still in production, unlike other 22MP chips) is considered, by many, to be one of the finest CCDs ever made and as one that is cable of producing, given the right conditions and mounted inside an Aptus, Aptus S or Aptus-II (or even a Valeo), the sharpest, cleanest and richest files compared to most if not all other digital capture devices.
Have a look at Peter Yang's photo which has won him the ASME's "Best Magazine Cover of The Year" (http://www.magazine.org/asme/2009-best-magazine-cover-winners-finalists.aspx) and guess which back it was shot with. Peter has another, bigger back but he chose to use his Aptus 22 for this job.
The Aptus-II 5 is based on the WELL PROVEN technology from the Aptus 22 and Aptus 54S and combines it with some other improvements taken from the other mambers of the Aptus-II family.
Let me know if you would like to see some vintage file from these backs.
Yair
Hi Yair,
I agree with all you say about the Dalsa ccd, Sinar use the same chip for their eMotion 54 and its a very popular cameraback,- try to get a secondhand one for example, Carl Glover's HY6 example images (http://www.image2output.com/Product.aspx?id=2076&cat=48) also are witness to this which were shot with this cameraback.
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John,
The Hy6 would be thru Sinar, which is distributed thru Bron Imaging Group in the United States. www.bronimaginggroup.com Repair is shipped overseas to Sinar in Switzerland.
The AFI is not being supported by Leaf Imaging currently. ..........
Anyone needing support for AFi cameras could go to their respective countries Sinar Distributor for those accessories common between the Hy6 and the Afi
Edwin
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Hi Yair,
I agree with all you say about the Dalsa ccd, Sinar use the same chip for their eMotion 54 and its a very popular cameraback,- try to get a secondhand one for example, Carl Glover's HY6 example images (http://www.image2output.com/Product.aspx?id=2076&cat=48) also are witness to this which were shot with this cameraback.
To be honest my personal choice would be an Aptus over an eMotion
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Does anyone know if there will be ANY difference regarding noise from the A22/54s to the A-II 5?
Was hoping for some improvements except speed / display from my old A22.
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Within the next month or so we may be able to see what Aptus 22 files look like in Capture One. That would be the most interesting thing to see and use as a comparison for better or worse to the default Leaf files in what they show noise wise at 200 and 400. The AII5 files will most likely just be the same to the A22/A54s. The software conversion is where the improvement may lie.
And I wouldn't expect miracles. But that is a great sensor in that unit (at 25-100 ISO). It's just not designed for higher. I do have some customers who use 200 from time to time, carefully. I don't expect Capture One to make ISO 400 on the Aptus II 5 a usable ISO in typical situations, though some mild improvement is possible. I don't think it will change the intended end user target for this product. It might make those intended users just a bit happier, though.
Steve Hendrix
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quick question
if the Aptus II 5 is based on the same rock solid foundations of the Aptus 22, does that mean that it also carries on the weakness of long exposures?
I made a thread yonks back, where the Aptus was superior in pricing but the Phase One more suited my needs doing 5 - 20 second exposures on a regular basis for car work.
I would love to grab an Aptus II 5, but again it's pointless if my bread and butter work relies solely on the back's only weakness. I was told the Phase One refurbs are "sold out" and the P30+ and P25+ prices are a substantial price jump.
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quick question
if the Aptus II 5 is based on the same rock solid foundations of the Aptus 22, does that mean that it also carries on the weakness of long exposures?
I made a thread yonks back, where the Aptus was superior in pricing but the Phase One more suited my needs doing 5 - 20 second exposures on a regular basis for car work.
I would love to grab an Aptus II 5, but again it's pointless if my bread and butter work relies solely on the back's only weakness. I was told the Phase One refurbs are "sold out" and the P30+ and P25+ prices are a substantial price jump.
Easton:
I've produced clean exposures with Leaf Aptus backs up until 30 seconds with the help of the Leaf Clean Long Exposure tool to eliminate the hot pixels. I also found I could get better results if I varied my exposures. For example, sometimes when a capture called for 8 seconds, I would over expose slightly by half a stop or so, and this often produced a cleaner file after adjusting the density down in post. Without room to over expose, the longer exposures weren't quite as clean, but I believe they were still usable. FYI - I believe the Clean Long Exposure tool will be in the Capture One software for Leaf Aptus backs.
That's surprising to hear about the P25+ pricing. In the USA, after the refurbished program expired, the pricing of the P25+ brand new was reduced to $1,000 below the pricing of the P25+ refurb. The P30+ price remained the same, however.
Steve Hendrix
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The Dalsa 22MP (which BTW is still in production, unlike other 22MP chips) is considered, by many, to be one of the finest CCDs ever made and as one that is cable of producing, given the right conditions and mounted inside an Aptus, Aptus S or Aptus-II (or even a Valeo), the sharpest, cleanest and richest files compared to most if not all other digital capture devices.
Yair, perhaps you misunderstand me; any negatives I see with that 22MP sensor are only relative to the fact that Dalsa and Kodak have continued to make progress, and their two more recent generations of MF CCDs are even better. To say it again, the newer sensors give higher resolution with no impairment in the visible quality of shadows or dynamic range when compared fairly --- at the image level, not the pixel level. I have little time for nostalgic waffle about the superiority of lower resolution, lower sensitivity sensors from the good old days of big, slow, manly pixels. But I can see that for some photographers, an Aptus-II 5 is a better choice than anything else in its price range.
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I use Aptus 22 and 75 and prefer the overall look of the files from the 22.
@Easton - I have no problems shooting 8 to 30 sec exposures with A22 if I process those files in LC.
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Yair, perhaps you misunderstand me; any negatives I see with that 22MP sensor are only relative to the fact that Dalsa and Kodak have continued to make progress, and their two more recent generations of MF CCDs are even better. To say it again, the newer sensors give higher resolution with no impairment in the visible quality of shadows or dynamic range when compared fairly --- at the image level, not the pixel level. I have little time for nostalgic waffle about the superiority of lower resolution, lower sensitivity sensors from the good old days of big, slow, manly pixels. But I can see that for some photographers, an Aptus-II 5 is a better choice than anything else in its price range.
BJL,
I must second what Yair is saying here, the Dalsa 22 MPx sensor is a fantastic sensor and still is. I have myself and many other customers a preference for backs with this sensor for overall image quality. I don't think it is only nostalgia or the "good old days", at least for me personally. And when you have a look at a multishot file coming from this sensor, then you won't believe your eyes. I say it here again like I said it since many years: the 16-shot from the Dalsa 22 MPx sensor (88,8 MPx file) is superior to a 8x10" transparency.
Best regards,
Thierry
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Hi Thierry, hope you're well.
Off topic, would you know if sensors/bayer filter deteriorate
in any way over time?
Billy
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Double post
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Hi Thierry, hope you're well.
Off topic, would you know if sensors/bayer filter deteriorate
in any way over time?
Billy
Hi Billy,
am fine, thanks, and hope you too?
I have absolutely no knowledge of even one single such sensor deterioration, honestly. There are even very old 12 MPx sensor from Loral, or then the Philips 6 MPx sensor which are still used by many, without any such problem.
Best regards,
Thierry
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I must second what Yair is saying here, the Dalsa 22 MPx sensor is a fantastic sensor and still is.
And do I have to say again, I am not disputing its virtue considered in isolation, or in comparison to what someone was using previously, or in comparison to smaller format options. My comments are solely relative to newer MF CCD options. Can you point me to any evidence that the newer sensors are worse or no better, when the end products are compared fairly, like on prints of equal and sufficiently large size? If there were a consensus for the idea of the 22MP sensor being as good as or better than newer options, current MF price patterns should be turned on their head, with 22MP models commanding prices comparable to (or even higher than) back with newfangled smaller pixel sensors. The marketplace instead shows that the silent majority of DMF back buyers agree with me.
Of course, I am not the slightest bit interested in examples of people liking what they see when pixel peeping at 100% on screen, or printing at equal PPI from backs of different pixel counts, for reasons that have been discussed many times, though I suspect that some MF photographers do assess gear that way.
And of course, if 22MP at low enough ISO works fine for someone's needs, the newer sensors may offer no advantage to such a person, and the Aptus-II 5 might then be a good choice (comparisons to 35mm DSLR aside!)
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Thanks for answering my questions.
Is $9,200 USD a satisfactory price for the new Aptus II 5?
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Thanks for answering my questions.
Is $9,200 USD a satisfactory price for the new Aptus II 5?
Before you spend any money for any expensive camera (I now define expensive as anything past a 5d2) I suggest you ask yourself these questions.
1. Will it change the look of your work and result in more bookings, more profit, a prettier girlfriend?
2. Will it make your life easier, faster, do what you need . . . 100% of what you need and allow you more time to spend making images?
3. Will the dealer and manufacturer let you try the system for a full shoot, the way you shoot, the volume you shoot, the style you shoot and if it doesn't work will they take it back no questions asked?
4. Is the camera stable, 100% available for rentals (backups) in every major market, are lenses on the shelf ready for sale, is every promised or announced feature both in hardware and software delivered on time?
5. Is the software solid, fast, work with your computer system, or require new computers, new operating systems. Digital backs are 90% software and if it's fast, intuitive and stable it makes the whole process
100% easier, if it's still a work in progress then consider yourself an unpaid beta tester.
6. What is the learning curve. 1 day, 1 week, 1 month? A problematic camera can take 2 months out of your year, what is two months worth?
7. Is tech support one phone call away, do digital techs in your market know how to work the system, can you run the system by yourself if the tech gets the flu?
8. Have your clients asked you for a better file a better camera? Has anyone that will possibly pay you looked at your work and asked what camera you use?
9. Have you calculated the complete costs of camera, back, lenses, larger storage (usually double), time to make jpegs for presentation, new operating systems, probably a new computer, including backups?
If everything but the camera fails can you still work, show an image to the AD, keep on schedule and budget?
10. Will it make you happy, or will you pull your hair out in frustration? Happy is important, even can be worth the time and effort, but problems can throw you and your clients for a loop, spoil a lot of
good equity and make you think about the camera rather than the image. It's all about the content and the image and I looked at your work it's quite nice so if you think a new camera will change
your work, your life for the better go for it, if not, put the money and especailly the time in something that will move you forward.
Few if any good client will hire you for your gear, it's all about the image, your talent and how you do business.
FWIW, I've drank the Kool-Aid, sometimes the results were worth it, most of the time I'm not quite sure. I do know it takes many, many hours to learn a new system, get use to it's nuances and if that system is slow,
limiting, a work in progress, it can take what should be a good, easy, creative and profitable day and turn it into a nightmare and this isn't directed at digital backs, this is my view of the complete digital process, software to hardware,
dslr to medium format.
Also FWIW I had an Aptus 22, not heavily used that I sold after about a year and could not get more than $8,000 for it. Now granted I'm not one to spend anytime on e-baby fighting off deals to gain an extra $500 but from over $20,000 to
$8,000 was quite a drop. Remember all of this stuff, camera, computers drop in price about 1/2 the moment you turn the key (or push the shutter).
FWIW 3. Spending a lot of money on a camera made me use it, at times I probably shouldn't have but I spent the cash, talked myself into believing it was a wise investment and pixel peeped my way into be sure I did the right thing.
The old Aptus 22 file can be beautiful, can be problematic depending on subject and lighting, but only you will know if it's worth it so find a dealer that will let you test it the way you work.
11. The final question. Are you looking at the Aptus 5 just because of costs? Is the price the motivator or is the quality? If it's costs you'll probably find yourself next buying an Aptus 7 or 10 in the next few months. If the camera is problematic (not
that I'm saying the Aptus 5 is) you will find yourself going back to a dslr and regretting the time invested. Only you can answer this, but be sure, be clear, be careful.
IMO
BC
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1. Will it change the look of your work and result in more bookings, more profit, a prettier girlfriend?
BC
There was so much wisdom in your post... I hated to clip it all. So true So true
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Before you spend any money for any expensive camera (I now define expensive as anything past a 5d2) I suggest you ask yourself these questions.
BC
BC,
very important points! Now, if I had the cash to invest in an Aputs II5, and I had the need for speed(pun intended ), I'd get one in an instant. Just because of the need.
I'm getting used to the quality of 4x5 color negs right now, so my standard for quality(at least for me) is a 6x7 neg/transparency, minimum. Maybe a 6x4.5, since my H2 is such a nice camera .
butt for right now, Portra and f/4 or 5.6 is what I'm getting used to for portraits and my personal work for people.
film gives me what I want, and I've got a good line on cheap drum scans. So I guess I'm spoiled
now, a D3x is a great camera, only held/fired one once. But the overall 'feel in the hand' was such that I was instantly lusting after one. But a need for the best 16bit file(film scan) can't be met by a d3x. regrettably.
-Dan
EDIT: oops, (but) is what I meant
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My workflow/style of shooting requires a lot of shadow recovery which is something digital backs always shone.
I had a ZD back before I sold it and compared with my 5D2 it was much better for my style of work. Especially as a file input for retouching.
I've been waiting for an opportunity to buy back into a digital back and the Aptus II 5 seems to be it. Should hopefully produce even better files than the ZD, and hopefully more reliable
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and what about long exposures with the Leaf Aptus-II 5 22 MP ?
25 ISO is perfect for long exposure but how does the files look ?
thank you
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and what about long exposures with the Leaf Aptus-II 5 22 MP ?
25 ISO is perfect for long exposure but how does the files look ?
thank you
The only backs in the world which do a good exposure in the "minutes" or "hours" range are the Phase One P45, P45+, P30+, P25+, P21+ and P20+.
So are you asking about long exposure meaning several seconds to 30 seconds or are you asking about really long exposures like 90 seconds, 10 minutes, or two hours?
Doug Peterson ()
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Yair,
I saw this tender love story the other night in the movie theater. It was called "ZombieLand". Woody Harrelson and a few others kept running from these people that were half-alive and half-dead, (seemingly, sorta like Leaf). The zombies were dragging a club foot, and throwing up bile, but were still somewhat alive, but limping along, (sorta like Leaf). Woody Harrelson kept trying to kill off the Zombies, but it took not one, but two, 12-gauge blasts to the head to actually kill a Zombie, (sorta like Leaf). Just when you thought a Zombie was dead and gone, they'd rise up from the ashes, (sorta like Leaf).
I wish Phase would just take a 12-gauge and finish off Leaf, and get back to work designing a digital back with a usable LCD that didn't requires dragging around a Zombie Laptop, and they could secede from the Megapixel Arms Race. Seems like lots of activity and scurrying around at Phase One, yet, in the end, nothing satisfactory ever comes to market. But hey, it's a free capitalistic country over there, and they can write the movie script however they like.
Good luck wearing that Viking Helmet. But you're now one of "them".
The End.
You got me there...I haven't seen this movie but even though I do not agree to anything you say I prefer the film analogy to the car analogy...keeps it on a humoristic level.
Yair
What.... ? Yair is part of the undead ? If he bites you do you "turn too", or is that vampires ? Either way it's an inteteresting business model if it rellies on bitting people to then possess them (into buying the very latest back) and create an undying army of digital back users craving the flesh of Canon 5DII users who are adamant that they never need another camera again and that as they are surrounded by Yair's minions and are finally finished off, they are still squeeling something about having "just as much of a 3D look as a MFDB from their canon". Zombies are about as real as the abillity to make a 3D image onto a 2D bit of paper - even Epson's new superdooper (2D) papers can't do that (yet)!!
So let's give Yair a break and bear in mind how good the Afi 10/AptusII 10 is "for the money". Talk about putting Phase in an awkward position.
EJ
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Yair,
I saw this tender love story the other night in the movie theater. It was called "ZombieLand". Woody Harrelson and a few others kept running from these people that were half-alive and half-dead, (seemingly, sorta like Leaf). The zombies were dragging a club foot, and throwing up bile, but were still somewhat alive, but limping along, (sorta like Leaf). Woody Harrelson kept trying to kill off the Zombies, but it took not one, but two, 12-gauge blasts to the head to actually kill a Zombie, (sorta like Leaf). Just when you thought a Zombie was dead and gone, they'd rise up from the ashes, (sorta like Leaf).
I wish Phase would just take a 12-gauge and finish off Leaf, and get back to work designing a digital back with a usable LCD that didn't requires dragging around a Zombie Laptop, and they could secede from the Megapixel Arms Race. Seems like lots of activity and scurrying around at Phase One, yet, in the end, nothing satisfactory ever comes to market. But hey, it's a free capitalistic country over there, and they can write the movie script however they like.
Good luck wearing that Viking Helmet. But you're now one of "them".
The End.
What.... ? Yair is part of the undead ? If he bites you do you "turn too", or is that vampires ? Either way it's an inteteresting business model if it rellies on bitting people to then possess them (into buying the very latest back) and create an undying army of digital back users craving the flesh of Canon 5DII users who are adamant that they never need another camera again and that as they are surrounded by Yair's minions and are finally finished off, they are still squeeling something about having "just as much of a 3D look as a MFDB from their canon". Zombies are about as real as the abillity to make a 3D image onto a 2D bit of paper - even Epson's new superdooper (2D) papers can't do that (yet)!!
So let's give Yair a break and bear in mind how good the Afi 10/AptusII 10 is "for the money". Talk about putting Phase in an awkward position.
EJ
Judging from the conflicting sentiments in the above two paragraphs I have to wonder if the movie you were watching was'nt actually 'Strange case of Dr.Jekyll and Mr.Hyde'
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till i've bought my Aptus 22, i 've didn't touch my 5DII anymore... it all depends on your shooting styles... for me it was a big step ahead !
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The only backs in the world which do a good exposure in the "minutes" or "hours" range are the Phase One P45, P45+, P30+, P25+, P21+ and P20+.
So are you asking about long exposure meaning several seconds to 30 seconds or are you asking about really long exposures like 90 seconds, 10 minutes, or two hours?
I think that you cannot go over 30 seconds with Leaf , then, yes, exposure of 30 seconds ?
I have sold my P45 a few month ago and it was very good for very long exposures, I regret than now there is nothing any more in MF for night photography
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Anyone shooting natural light with an aptus 22 at 400iso? I have some sample raws i've been playing with and I know everyone is saying it's not usable at 400 but curious if anyone out there is making it work.
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Anyone shooting natural light with an aptus 22 at 400iso? I have some sample raws i've been playing with and I know everyone is saying it's not usable at 400 but curious if anyone out there is making it work.
This is all scene and subject dependent and it also depends on your expectations.
With film, especially neg film shooting a 400 asa film in low light produced tons of grain in shadows and clumping and nobody thought twice about it, but in the digital world, a spec of noise and everyone goes nuts, so the digital expectations seems to be so different to the film expectations.
The Aptus will go to 400 iso, but don't expect smooth as a baby's butt, Canon 400 asa, even Canon 1000 asa cause it doesn't do that, though it doesn't mean it's not pretty, it's just not something you can do if somebody says that want to see the stitching on a pair of jeans from across the street.
If your shooting non tethered, the previews are gonna scare the crap out of you, cause the preview doesn't have any noise reduction, so tether or check things on the computer, because if you show a client that 400 asa preview they gonna die.
Now if your not shooting for a client, your probably better off underexposing at 200 and working it in post. Not much difference, but some and less loss of detail.
Someone I know well shot this with an Aptus 22 at 400 iso.
[attachment=18350:aptus400asa.jpg]
BC
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I use 400 sometimes. Works for some things.
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Depending on the light ISO400 can do great things, remember that we're used to looking 1:1 on a PC screen but that's not realistic.
Try a 400ISO file and print it on A2 size and you will see that the noise is much less that you would expect.
I've A2 ISO6400 prints from the 5DMKII that needed no noise reduction, and I have 800ISO files that needed them.
It all depends on the light and the wavelengths probably.
I find the Aptus in normal sunlight to perform very well on ISO400 (read usable if necessary) however when the light is getting cooler like in the shadow it's performs much worse.
Under tungsten light I switch to the 5DMKII even on ISO200.
So there is no 100% answer for this I'm afraid.
On the other hand I shot a 800ASA roll film color a while ago and that really scared me and put the noise "issues" of digital back in line
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On the other hand I shot a 800ASA roll film color a while ago and that really scared me and put the noise "issues" of digital back in line
Good point for people to remember. When I shot 400asa neg on 6x7 and scanned it the results on screen at 100% were frightening. In print it was fine.
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George I hope you don't mind me jumping in,
There is nothing "shaky and murky" about the new Leaf Imaging company...manufacturing and shipments have recommenced in August and already the numbers are looking very good. Many people were waiting for the dust to settle before placing their orders and this shows trust and belief in the company, its products and its people.
There are new products coming in the next months, with further software developments and long term plans for new solutions
Leaf Imaging US was formed 2 weeks ago so it can continue to market and support the product. Maybe I should highlight the fact that Rick Adshead is now a member of the team and anyone who has ever owned a Leaf back in the US will appreciate that very much.
In Asia Leaf also has a strong organisation, including Fai Chan who is considered amongst the top digital product specialists in the world
Europe is covered by several people who are all experienced in both selling and supporting the product.
All these people are busy flying/ driving around the world right now, seeing customers and dealers and attending events and delivering a positive "we are ON" message. I must say that the response so far has been very, very positive!
None of the above is a kept secret and there are daily/ weekly newsletters going out to customers and dealers.
So this is not Saturn, far from it...Saturn was a BAD product while Leaf is one of the BEST products in the market, with a well established presence and a large install base, which is why people (end users, dealers and employees) stand by it and are proud to do so.
Last weekend in Barcelona, the Leaf stand at Sonimagfoto was constantly busy and this weekend the Salon De La Photo in Paris is expected to bring many people as well. Next week during PhotoPlus there are two events taking place were customers can meet the Leaf team and see the products. My understanding is that both events are already fully booked and I can say the same about 2 other events that take place in Scandinavia at the same time...
Yes the world's economy is "not in a good state" and yes the photographic industry has gone through some rough times but we are already seeing signs of recovery and we will continue to push forward and expect nothing but success in the future.
Sorry for the long reply but it is important for me that people see things from both sides of the window and as it is a nice and sunny day here I should better really get back to doing something constructive now:-)
Yair
I fully agree. I'm on my third Leaf Back and fully delighted with it. My first was before Kodak bought them and I placed my order for my Aptus 10 II despite the newly announced (at that time) change in ownership this last spring and summer. I have a lot of confidence. The fact that Rick is there is certainly an added bonus. He gave me a lot of help--one time in particular was with my Aptus 16 while I was giving a workshop at Glacier Point in Yosemite--he saved the day (my fault, not the back btw) and has continually come up with the right answers. None of my backs have had to go in for servicing to fix a problem--I'm delighted with Leaf.
But if anyone is going to look for guarantees in our economic environment for the next several years, forget it--there are no guarantees with anyone, any corporation or business. Anyone of them could be out of business next month or year--not to realize that is naive. Just not the present reality folks. They used to say as goes General Motors goes the nation. Well guess what........
Is there a company operating today making a digital back that anyone here would bet $10,000 or $20,000 on it surviving for a year. I wouldn't, but I would buy another Leaf in a heartbeat if the need arose. I think they are a superior product after doing a lot of shopping, testing and demos as well as seeking others use various other brands in the field--they will be around whether it's name be Leaf, PhaseOne-Leaf or WhoeverDB--in my opinion, they have a better mousetrap :-)
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and nobody knows how look the file at 30 seconds ?