Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: JdeV on October 02, 2009, 06:35:56 am
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If someone gets their hands on this camera can they please do a test handheld to see how much mirror slap there is.
In my experience you need to shoot at 1/250 or above with an 80mm lens on an H series body to avoid blur from mirror slap.
This is deeply disappointing compared to an RZ which, despite having a huge mirror, can be reliably hand-held with a 90mm lens at 1/60th second.
All Hasselblads with mirrors have had this problem, likewise the Pentax 6x7. I do not know from personal experience what the Mamiya 645 series have been like but reports have suggested mirror slap is a problem comparable to the H cameras.
Accurate comparative shutter lag data would also be welcome but that would need a proper test environment.
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If someone gets their hands on this camera can they please do a test handheld to see how much mirror slap there is.
In my experience you need to shoot at 1/250 or above with an 80mm lens on an H series body to avoid blur from mirror slap.
This is deeply disappointing compared to an RZ which, despite having a huge mirror, can be reliably hand-held with a 90mm lens at 1/60th second.
All Hasselblads with mirrors have had this problem, likewise the Pentax 6x7. I do not know from personal experience what the Mamiya 645 series have been like but reports have suggested mirror slap is a problem comparable to the H cameras.
Accurate comparative shutter lag data would also be welcome but that would need a proper test environment.
Hand held at 1/50 and f8 with the 645DF and 80mm LS lens:
(http://www.imagehut.eu/images/43969Screen%20shot%202009-10-02%20at%2011.43.21.png)
100% crop:
(http://www.imagehut.eu/images/46492Screen%20shot%202009-10-02%20at%2011.44.54.png)
For me there was never a mirror slap issue with the AFD family.
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I agree with yaya, I have a first generation AFD and have no problem doing handhelds down to 1/30 with the 80mm. I used to shoot Pentax 67 and I can't see how you could ever compare the two, but even with the huge mirror slap of the 67 I could handhold it at slower speeds than what you are suggesting.
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In my experience you need to shoot at 1/250 or above with an 80mm lens on an H series body to avoid blur from mirror slap.
This is deeply disappointing compared to an RZ which, despite having a huge mirror, can be reliably hand-held with a 90mm lens at 1/60th second.
All Hasselblads with mirrors have had this problem, likewise the Pentax 6x7. I do not know from personal experience what the Mamiya 645 series have been like but reports have suggested mirror slap is a problem comparable to the H cameras.
Accurate comparative shutter lag data would also be welcome but that would need a proper test environment.
With the H3D ¿and earlier? you can set a mirror-up to shutter-open delay to eliminate blur due to mirror slap.
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Since several firmware versions ago you can set the delay between the shutter and the mirror-up. This has eliminated the mirror slap problem (certainly for H2 and beyond).
What are you using?
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Hand held at 1/50 and f8 with the 645DF and 80mm LS lens:
(http://www.imagehut.eu/images/43969Screen%20shot%202009-10-02%20at%2011.43.21.png)
100% crop:
(http://www.imagehut.eu/images/46492Screen%20shot%202009-10-02%20at%2011.44.54.png)
For me there was never a mirror slap issue with the AFD family.
Hi,
Very interesting and useful.
Cheers,
Jonathan
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Since several firmware versions ago you can set the delay between the shutter and the mirror-up. This has eliminated the mirror slap problem (certainly for H2 and beyond).
What are you using?
I rent H3Ds with H backs and earlier H models with Phase backs.
I do use the shutter lag adjustment now and then but it is hardly a satisfactory solution to substitute one defect with another.
As has long been acknowledged, it is highly desirable feature for cameras to a) not cause blur by the action of their own mechanics, b take a picture as quick as possible after the shutter is pressed. There are some circumstances in which one can accept a deterioration in b to get an improvement in a) but generally not.
When shooting people in lowish available or continuous light this is a major issue, (particularly given the limited scope for increasing ISO).
It is extremely interesting that the Mamiya/645 series are apparently so superior in this respect.
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Since several firmware versions ago you can set the delay between the shutter and the mirror-up. This has eliminated the mirror slap problem (certainly for H2 and beyond).
What are you using?
This really does work. Noticeable difference. I set mine to 250ms and don't have any trouble. It could be cumbersome if I were shooting sports or action.
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This really does work. Noticeable difference. I set mine to 250ms and don't have any trouble. It could be cumbersome if I were shooting sports or action.
...or people.
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...or people.
I photograph dogs. Never have any trouble (www.topdogimaging.net).
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I photograph dogs. Never have any trouble (www.topdogimaging.net).
Bob:
Love that upside down bulldog. Laugh out loud funny!
I think the H2 allows up to 200ms rather than 250ms, but it does help some. That said, I've never noticed much of an issue with the AFD (Mamiya or Phase One) cameras. Not as buttery as the Contax, but not far off. A non issue on the Phase One camera.
Steve Hendrix
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There is a Custom Function "Extra Mirror Delay" available on all H cameras. The options available are None, 25ms, 50ms (default), 100ms and 200ms.
This was implemented specifically for handheld photography, when slow shutter speeds are used.
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A fashion photographer is a dude magnet. A dog photographer is a lady magnet. Right on.
Tomorrow I photograph another early-teenage ballerina, in a leotard, to accompany her application for an audition for admission to The Royal Ballet School. There is a wall-to wall window in the studio, so I might try some without flash, or syncro-sun. These should be static poses, but I want to take the opportunity to take some pix of dancers dancing!
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There is a Custom Function "Extra Mirror Delay" available on all H cameras. The options available are None, 25ms, 50ms (default), 100ms and 200ms.
This was implemented specifically for handheld photography, when slow shutter speeds are used.
Let's be clear here -- when he says "slow shutter speeds", he's talking about a 60th and 125th even. Maybe he's not, but I am.
I have experienced camera shake from Mirror Slap with the H, even on a large tripod, shooting window light, at 125th. Given, this was with the H1, but my point is: the mirror slap issue is not a small one. You can literally feel the camera lunge in your hands, when the shutter fires. Hold the grip, and test it for yourself.
I have found though, that with the CF of the H2, even at 50ms, it helps a good bit.
Still, I am very paranoid shooting available light jobs with the H2 body. Tripod always, which basically turns the camera into the mobility and spontaneity of a view camera. Not what I'd call a great design, in a photographer's hands. The Contax 645 was much better in this regard, but the Contax had a tiny, dark, viewfinder.
Sadly, again: "Advantage: Canon". Again.
With money on the table, no one wants to deliver a job with half the frames with mirror slap blur. Not in a good economy, but certainly not in a challenged economy.
Be forewarned. Call that "Hasselblad-bashing" all you want -- I choose to view it as "informing other commercial photographers, so they don't blow a job".
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Let's be clear here -- when he says "slow shutter speeds", he's talking about a 60th and 125th even. Maybe he's not, but I am.
I have experienced camera shake from Mirror Slap with the H, even on a large tripod, shooting window light, at 125th. Given, this was with the H1, but my point is: the mirror slap issue is not a small one. You can literally feel the camera lunge in your hands, when the shutter fires. Hold the grip, and test it for yourself.
I have found though, that with the CF of the H2, even at 50ms, it helps a good bit.
Still, I am very paranoid shooting available light jobs with the H2 body. Tripod always, which basically turns the camera into the mobility and spontaneity of a view camera. Not what I'd call a great design, in a photographer's hands. The Contax 645 was much better in this regard, but the Contax had a tiny, dark, viewfinder.
Sadly, again: "Advantage: Canon". Again.
With money on the table, no one wants to deliver a job with half the frames with mirror slap blur. Not in a good economy, but certainly not in a challenged economy.
Be forewarned. Call that "Hasselblad-bashing" all you want -- I choose to view it as "informing other commercial photographers, so they don't blow a job".
My experience also, which is why I specifically quoted 1/250 for safety even with an 80mm lens. I also absolutely hate noticeable shutter lag. Without using the CF the H3D has comparable shutter lag to a DSLR (personal experience, specifications and reviews), but even 50ms makes it glacial and decisive moments will be missed.
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Any comments on the prices of the new camera and lens???
Snook
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Mirror bounce is unavoidable - it is a matter of degree. I had two 500 bodies - a 500C and also a later CM. They all bouced like mad. In fact, my disappointment on developing my first roll from the first 500 was immense. I would have had my Rollei TLR back in an instant. But, on a tripod, it was a different story. Which, of course, means that the hand-held joy of the Rollei, with its 75mm in my case, was never going to happen with the Hass with 80mm because of that damn mirror.
Someone mentioned the Pentax 67. I had a brand new Pentax 67 ll for a few months and not only did the mirror bounce but the shutter was every bit as bad too. I'm afraid that the mechanical construction is simply what it is and you will never beat that - just elect to live with it or not.
The day when the sensor switches itself on and off instead of needing a shutter to do the job will be the day that many problems with slr design are solved . All you might need to worry about then could be old friend mirror slap.
I think I mentioned some time ago that Hasselblad actually published a newsletter where they printed two side-by side shots with one of their cameras to illustrate the need for mirror up; they were totally honest and also pointed out that it was an unwanted feature of all slr types.
Rob C
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I think I mentioned some time ago that Hasselblad actually published a newsletter where they printed two side-by side shots with one of their cameras to illustrate the need for mirror up; they were totally honest and also pointed out that it was an unwanted feature of all slr types.
Rob C
Was that parallel with the video I've seen of a coin balanced on an 80mm showing how little vibration there is when the shutter fires, didn't mention mirror locked up
Disclaimer: V system user with Phase back, never saw mirror slap with film
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Any comments on the prices of the new camera and lens???
Snook
$5,990 - Phase One DF camera
$3,490 - LS 55mm/f2.8
$2,490 - LS 80mm/f2.8
$3,990 - LS 110mm/f2.8
Far as I know, compatible with all digital backs that mount to previous generation AFD.
And, on a note of extreme good news, Rick Adshead, long-time Leaf tech support God, has come on board with the Leaf Imaging division of Phase One in a similar role as he has had for, gosh, so many years I have lost count. This is awesome news. This probably deserves its own thread.
Steve Hendrix
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Hi,
In my view the Pentax also has issues with shutter induced vibrations. I had a lot of issues with my Pentax 67 (not Pentax 67 II) on top of my Manfrotto C055 tripod. These problems went away when I upgraded to a Velbon CF (Sherpa 630) tripod having a third of the weight (head included).
Best regards
Erik
Mirror bounce is unavoidable - it is a matter of degree. I had two 500 bodies - a 500C and also a later CM. They all bouced like mad. In fact, my disappointment on developing my first roll from the first 500 was immense. I would have had my Rollei TLR back in an instant. But, on a tripod, it was a different story. Which, of course, means that the hand-held joy of the Rollei, with its 75mm in my case, was never going to happen with the Hass with 80mm because of that damn mirror.
Someone mentioned the Pentax 67. I had a brand new Pentax 67 ll for a few months and not only did the mirror bounce but the shutter was every bit as bad too. I'm afraid that the mechanical construction is simply what it is and you will never beat that - just elect to live with it or not.
The day when the sensor switches itself on and off instead of needing a shutter to do the job will be the day that many problems with slr design are solved . All you might need to worry about then could be old friend mirror slap.
I think I mentioned some time ago that Hasselblad actually published a newsletter where they printed two side-by side shots with one of their cameras to illustrate the need for mirror up; they were totally honest and also pointed out that it was an unwanted feature of all slr types.
Rob C
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My experience also, which is why I specifically quoted 1/250 for safety even with an 80mm lens. I also absolutely hate noticeable shutter lag. Without using the CF the H3D has comparable shutter lag to a DSLR (personal experience, specifications and reviews), but even 50ms makes it glacial and decisive moments will be missed.
the only reason why the AFD might seem superior is because each time you press the shutter button you have to wait something like half a second before the shutter actually triggers.
and no you can't adjust the duration of the delay.
mirror slap has been part and parcel of medium format for ages.
sorry man but if you can't get a sharp image from the 80mm on a H at 1/250th of a second maybe it's other factors like the stability of your shooting position or your handshake?
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the only reason why the AFD might seem superior is because each time you press the shutter button you have to wait something like half a second before the shutter actually triggers.
and no you can't adjust the duration of the delay.
mirror slap has been part and parcel of medium format for ages.
sorry man but if you can't get a sharp image from the 80mm on a H at 1/250th of a second maybe it's other factors like the stability of your shooting position or your handshake?
You didn't properly read anything I wrote did you?
I am curious that you think that the AFD takes 1/2 second after pressing the shutter before the picture is taken. Do you attribute this to shutter lag, AF performance or some combination of the two.
Do other users of the AFD have the same experience I wonder?
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Let's be precise in what we're discussing. The original Mamiya AFD and the AFDII had very noticeable shutter lag, compounded by a spongy release feel and a long throw. This thread is not about those cameras. The Phase One/Mamiya AFDIII with current firmware has very little noticeable shutter lag, the throw feels a bit reduced, although it still doeesn't offer a firm click feel to the release. But the lag itself is barely noticeable at all. That the DF has reduced the lag even further, and reduced the throw, and reportedly also has a much firmer click to the release convinces me (based on the progress I have already seen in the AFDIII) that shutter lag is a problem of the past. We're not talking about Mamiya AFD or AFDII cameras here.
So - back to main topic, mirror slap, the mirror slap has never been aggressive in the Phase One/Mamiya camera and Yair's post is a good example of what is easily accomplished at slower shutter speeds.
Steve Hendrix
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There is nothing like a 1/2 second delay on the original AFD's either (except when auto focus is changing). I've got two bodies and have experienced minimal shutter lag, 100ms maybe (P45+ back).
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Mirror bounce is unavoidable - it is a matter of degree. I had two 500 bodies - a 500C and also a later CM. They all bouced like mad. In fact, my disappointment on developing my first roll from the first 500 was immense. I would have had my Rollei TLR back in an instant. But, on a tripod, it was a different story. Which, of course, means that the hand-held joy of the Rollei, with its 75mm in my case, was never going to happen with the Hass with 80mm because of that damn mirror.
Rob C
Bring back the wire-frame view-finder ...and make auto-zoom wire frame view finders and lens hoods while you are at it - does no-one realise how ineffective Lens hoods are on zooms at maximum focal length?
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Tripod always, which basically turns the camera into the mobility and spontaneity of a view camera.
Everybody beats themselves up with the Canon this, the Phase that, comparing an M9 to a Nikon to a Hasselblad and to be honest the world has changed.
What use to be medium format is now large format and if you don't think so, walk into your friendly value added dealer and say you want the biggest digital format camera made and it's 645.
I've seen this stuff go back and forth for the last 5 years and the only difference I see in medium format today is the file sizes are bigger and maybe you get a 1/2 stop better iso.
It doesn't make a Hasselblad or Phase bad, it just means that when your talking mirror slap, iso, lcd's, shutter lag, etc. etc. medium format works more like large format than any smaller dslr.
Think of the previews. To really see a medium format preview you need a computer and a software suite (i.e. polaroid processor).
Think of the way the medium format cameras have evolved. The newest Mamiya finally has less shutter lag and three new lenses. By the time they have a whole series of lenses the 35mm cameras will probably be at 35mpx and shooting high def 4k video in raw format.
This isn't a knock on Phase, it's just the way these specialty systems evolve in the digital age.
On this forum the comparisons will rage on and probably never be resolved, but in the world of professional photography cameras have gotten smaller, project expectations have become much larger and the time frame to shoot and deliver halved and I don't see any indication of the clock going backwards.
This doesn't mean that medium format is not viable, it just means that you shoot it differently for different projects. You see people cross over, shooting still life with a Canon, some guy here wants to shoot night time aerials with a medium format back, but to me those are the exceptions not the rule.
Now I view a 35mm project as something that can be shot at 14 fps and have video.
To me medium format is a 22mpx dslr and large format is a digital back, regardless of the camera.
That's just not my view, it's also my client's views or better put expectations, because most clients don't see the format of camera, they see the format as the size of the computer screen, if that.
It's all kind of backwards now. In the film days I would do personal work with a hand camera, 35mm or 2 1/4 then when the gig came in a lot of times it was shot 4x5 or 8x10 because the client wanted to go larger or retouch on the transparency. Now I shoot nearly every paying project with some kind of 35mm camera because the expectations and pace have tripled though when I shoot for personal work I'll shoot it with my Contax because I'm working my own schedule and have the time.
BC
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A fashion photographer is a dude magnet. A dog photographer is a lady magnet. Right on.
That's priceless
I wonder where Guy With Camera fits in that equation...
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the only reason why the AFD might seem superior is because each time you press the shutter button you have to wait something like half a second before the shutter actually triggers.
and no you can't adjust the duration of the delay.
mirror slap has been part and parcel of medium format for ages.
I don't think this is true because when shooting film with the AFd, which has barely any shutter lag, I could hand hold to 1/15 or so and get acceptably sharp images.
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There is nothing like a 1/2 second delay on the original AFD's either (except when auto focus is changing). I've got two bodies and have experienced minimal shutter lag, 100ms maybe (P45+ back).
It seems to vary body by body. My bodies were horrible.
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Guy Mancuso?
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Let's be precise in what we're discussing. The original Mamiya AFD and the AFDII had very noticeable shutter lag, compounded by a spongy release feel and a long throw. This thread is not about those cameras. The Phase One/Mamiya AFDIII with current firmware has very little noticeable shutter lag, the throw feels a bit reduced, although it still doeesn't offer a firm click feel to the release. But the lag itself is barely noticeable at all. That the DF has reduced the lag even further, and reduced the throw, and reportedly also has a much firmer click to the release convinces me (based on the progress I have already seen in the AFDIII) that shutter lag is a problem of the past. We're not talking about Mamiya AFD or AFDII cameras here.
So - back to main topic, mirror slap, the mirror slap has never been aggressive in the Phase One/Mamiya camera and Yair's post is a good example of what is easily accomplished at slower shutter speeds.
Steve Hendrix
haha you know how these threads have a tendency to become imprecise. But you are right, this is not about the AFD and AFDII.
but my experiences with them have been horrible. Shooting film was fine, no delay, but with digital I missed tons of shots because of the lag.
I'm sure it's fixed now.
But to the original threadstarter, I read your statement carefully
"In my experience you need to shoot at 1/250 or above with an 80mm lens on an H series body to avoid blur from mirror slap.
This is deeply disappointing compared to an RZ which, despite having a huge mirror, can be reliably hand-held with a 90mm lens at 1/60th second.
All Hasselblads with mirrors have had this problem, likewise the Pentax 6x7. I do not know from personal experience what the Mamiya 645 series have been like but reports have suggested mirror slap is a problem comparable to the H cameras."
the RZ's balancing is different from a H camera of course, and perhaps the reason you're seeing such intense mirror slap is due to the way you're handling it. Because 1/250th s is quite extreme.
Yes it would be interesting to see the difference in mirror slap, in the meantime with a H you should adjust the mirror delay, it makes a good difference.
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I've use a screw driver as a hammer before and a knife as a screwdriver. They work but not the jobs they were designed to do. Trying to get a MF camera to act/work like a 35mm camera is not reasonable. And trying to get a 35mm FF digital camera to have the image files of a MF camera is not reasonable. The trick is to always have the right tool for the job and in photography this means 2-3 systems if you want to get different types of jobs done. It just grows tiring to me reading people complain about functions that cameras weren't designed for and, in fact, shouldn't be used for. If you shoot a wide variety of subjects/jobs then you need a wide variety of cameras and that is just the way it is.
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Let's be precise in what we're discussing. The original Mamiya AFD and the AFDII had very noticeable shutter lag, compounded by a spongy release feel and a long throw. This thread is not about those cameras. The Phase One/Mamiya AFDIII with current firmware has very little noticeable shutter lag,
Strangely enough, my new PhaseOne camera has a very noticeable and annoying shutter lag when using mirror up mode. this is when in full manual mode and AF turned off. When I press the shutter release the second time to trigger the exposure, the camera makes some type of small sound, not sure what, then releases. When not using mirror lockup the shutter fires much more normally ... not much lag. Is there some setting I need to change?
I haven't noticed this before because I almost always use the self timer. I discovered this last night as I was shooting splashing waves ... very difficult to time the splash when using mirror lock up.
I also can't find anyway to do a bracket of more than +1/0/-1 ... not very useful. Am I missing something there?
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Guy Mancuso?
Guy fits in a sports BMW
Edmund
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Alot of the shooters I tech for notice a vary pronounced lag with the AFD111. I think its mostly the deep draw of the button. The Contax never had this problem.........hmmm progress!
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If someone gets their hands on this camera can they please do a test handheld to see how much mirror slap there is.
In my experience you need to shoot at 1/250 or above with an 80mm lens on an H series body to avoid blur from mirror slap.
This is deeply disappointing compared to an RZ which, despite having a huge mirror, can be reliably hand-held with a 90mm lens at 1/60th second.
All Hasselblads with mirrors have had this problem, likewise the Pentax 6x7. I do not know from personal experience what the Mamiya 645 series have been like but reports have suggested mirror slap is a problem comparable to the H cameras.
Accurate comparative shutter lag data would also be welcome but that would need a proper test environment.
It really depends on how steady the Photographer could hold the camera with a shutter speed range from 1/60 - 1/125s, I always had a problem with my hands when holding my H system + 50-110MM Zoom lens with 1/60. 1/90s to 1/125s is OK but of course 1/250 is always the best.
I think the H 80MM is a very well designed standard lens. If I could manage to hold the Camera with lens from 28MM to 80MM lens, everyone could do it.
Indeed, I could say Rollei 6008 & H System having the most serious Mirror Box vibration, however, H System do allow you to adjust the delay....
For Short (Fixed) Focal Length lens vary from 28MM to 100MM, I had no problem at all!
PS: I had owned Rollei 6008 system from 1988 till 2006!
Frankly, for Leaf Shutter Medium Format System, I think it is OK.
Please do not compare it with 135MM DSLR, it is not on a fair ground!
Even for Mamiya AFD System, it is a Focal Plane Shutter, the whole mechanical design is different!
The operation on 645 or 6x6 is different from 135MM DSLR.
Why not increase the ISO to 200/400? I had found the noise control is quite acceptable in Digital Back!
A Tripod is highly suggested to take pictures with heavy/long focal lens under 1/60s.
Regards
Derek
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It really depends on how steady the Photographer could hold the camera with a shutter speed range from 1/60 - 1/125s, I always had a problem with my hands when holding my H system + 50-110MM Zoom lens with 1/60. 1/90s to 1/125s is OK but of course 1/250 is always the best.
What is required is a standardised test for cameras not on tripods... surely the way to do this is to suspend the camera, and fire it with the timer, or remote release?
There would need to be standardisation for this technique... two threads hung from two points a metre apart, attached to two points on or near the camera, separated by the diagonal of the format, or the focal length of the lens?
The longer the lens, the more inertia it has, making it more stable - I could hand-hold my Novoflex 640mm @ 1/125... because it is not a telephoto, (and comes with two pistol grips and a shoulder grip).
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Alot of the shooters I tech for notice a vary pronounced lag with the AFD111. I think its mostly the deep draw of the button. The Contax never had this problem.........hmmm progress!
There could be several reasons for this - one is that their AFDIII may not have the latest firmware, which improved things quite a bit, and two, there is still a substantial throw to the release button, once you get a feel for where the release point is, that helps. But the decreased throw and surer click of the new DF should make this a non-issue.
Steve Hendrix
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I thought the afd 3 was supposed to sort out the shutter lag "problem". This time it'll be different though right?
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I thought the afd 3 was supposed to sort out the shutter lag "problem". This time it'll be different though right?
Well - I think it did resolve, very nearly, the lag itself. But I have always felt the physicality of the shutter release itself contributes to the sensation of shutter lag. Electronically, an updated AFDIII has very little lag in my experience, but the long throw and release button itself still contribute to a lag feeling or lag affect. I am only going from anecdotal feedback, but that seems to have been adjusted in the DF. If this is true then the experience of the release should be similar to what you get from an H1/H2, which I have always found responsive, but just as much for the actual feel of the release as for the amount of lag.
Steve Hendrix
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Steve's bang on the money here, when I changed systems from the H2 to the AFD II and III the first thing I noticed was the depth of the release button before it fired, quite different from the H2 and DSLR's... that is NOT a shutter lag problem, it's a user lag problem, once you hit the button it fires.
these camera's are high end bits of kit that require a user to get to know them, I shoot fashion, mostly with fast recycling Profoto packs, now you just don't shoot 'rat-a-tat-tat' in a studio, the lights need a little time to recharge, you get into a flow working with the lights, all this twaddle about micro second shutter lag is real world nonesense.
LEARN TO USE YOUR CAMERA. I have shot with both H2 and Mamiya AFDII's handheld at 1/60th with a 150mm on using natural light... 65% were fine 35% were not, but I'm asking for trouble going below 1/150th with a 150mm lens.
Buying kit doesn't make you a better shooter, using it does... dismissing an H2 with shutter slap is rubbish... the worlds TOP shooters use that camera, it and the Mamiya/Phase are now industry standard in NYC, London, Paris, Milan & Tokyo...
So maybe it's not the camera......?
S
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Steve's bang on the money here, when I changed systems from the H2 to the AFD II and III the first thing I noticed was the depth of the release button before it fired, quite different from the H2 and DSLR's... that is NOT a shutter lag problem, it's a user lag problem, once you hit the button it fires.
these camera's are high end bits of kit that require a user to get to know them, I shoot fashion, mostly with fast recycling Profoto packs, now you just don't shoot 'rat-a-tat-tat' in a studio, the lights need a little time to recharge, you get into a flow working with the lights, all this twaddle about micro second shutter lag is real world nonesense.
LEARN TO USE YOUR CAMERA. I have shot with both H2 and Mamiya AFDII's handheld at 1/60th with a 150mm on using natural light... 65% were fine 35% were not, but I'm asking for trouble going below 1/150th with a 150mm lens.
Buying kit doesn't make you a better shooter, using it does... dismissing an H2 with shutter slap is rubbish... the worlds TOP shooters use that camera, it and the Mamiya/Phase are now industry standard in NYC, London, Paris, Milan & Tokyo...
So maybe it's not the camera......?
S
The time from when you press the button FULLY to when it "actually" takes the shot is lagged and it is the most frustrating things there is.. Not sure if it is the samthing everyone is talking about but I have it happen all the time on the AFDII and it has had me lose many shots!!!!!
As well as the hunting of the crap auto focus...
Quite embarrassing when you "missed" the shot because of the Camera and not the user...
Has happened to me many times.....
It has Nothing do do with learning to use the camera on my end!! Been using mamiya for well over 20 years now!
Hopefully the DF resolved this PITA problem!
Snook
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I thought the afd 3 was supposed to sort out the shutter lag "problem". This time it'll be different though right?
Lag is, by definition, present on all cameras including Canons/Nikons. It is only a matter of the amount of it. The lag on the AFD3 (especially with the most recent firmware) was greatly improved from the AFD2. All indications are that the lag has been greatly reduced between the AFD3 and the DF.
For most users the lag on the AFD3 was in fact no longer a problem. Hopefully (and our initial hands on testing confirms it) the DF will extend that statement to those fashion/portrait shooters who are most likely to notice the difference of a few ms of lag.
We're not as full of marketing BS as you think :-P.
Doug Peterson ()
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Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
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The time from when you press the button FULLY to when it "actually" takes the shot is lagged and it is the most frustrating things there is.. Not sure if it is the samthing everyone is talking about but I have it happen all the time on the AFDII and it has had me lose many shots!!!!!
As well as the hunting of the crap auto focus...
Quite embarrassing when you "missed" the shot because of the Camera and not the user...
Has happened to me many times.....
It has Nothing do do with learning to use the camera on my end!! Been using mamiya for well over 20 years now!
Hopefully the DF resolved this PITA problem!
Yes that is exactly what we're talking about here. The AFD3 is already much better in this regard than the AFD2 you have and the DF will be better still (and on par or faster than the H2/H3).
You might think about upgrading that body to a DF when it's released, or an AFD3 (for which I'm sure we will have good deals as many users upgrade to the DF). The DF would also give you leaf shutter lenses which I know you would enjoy on your 645 platform as you already do with your RZ.
Doug Peterson ()
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
RSS Feed: Subscribe (http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/)
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is it true that the leaf shutter lenses will work only on the df?
that would be pretty ridicolous, for all those who bought into the sytem this year.
there was never any hint that those lenses will need a new camera.
still can't believe it but it would be nice to get some enlieghtening information.
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is it true that the leaf shutter lenses will work only on the df?
that would be pretty ridicolous, for all those who bought into the sytem this year.
there was never any hint that those lenses will need a new camera.
still can't believe it but it would be nice to get some enlieghtening information.
Probably due to the electronics needed to "cock" the shutter in the lens they would need a new body and ofcourse Mamiya will make a lot more money selling new bodies!!!
Maybe they would offer a trade in rebate for the AFD3 guys which would not include me.. I am pretty disappointed in the prices as they seem really high and if you need the lens like I do, buying another camera body for over 5,000 grand is ridiculous, plus I always have back ups so that would be over 10,000 for two bodies..
Pretty disappointing and pretty late if you ask me, but no one has asked me...:+]
Does anybody else feel the prices are really high and when will we know if the new body is needed for the leaf shutter lens???
Snook
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Erik I think the prices are to compete with h series pricing, i agree those who bought into the AFD II/Phase One two months ago should have a very very generous carrot dangled in front of them but who knows.
Pricing kit alongside the competition is one thing, but to get it into the rental houses and make it worthwhile for current H users and us AFD II users to 'invest' the prices have to come down or trade ins need to be hefty.
Right now people like us would and will spend that 10K as Erik mentioned on advertising, promo's and personal work to keep us in the minds of our clients...
I would rent the new body and three new lenses for a shoot and carry my normal kit along side, but I live in a major city... those that don't.....
S
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We're not as full of marketing BS as you think :-P.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/06/business.../06adco.html?hp (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/06/business/media/06adco.html?hp)
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As far as I know there is a upgrade price from a AFD 3 if you bought it in the last year for around 1500US. Could be wrong, but it exists in Germany.
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Of course a nice thing about Mamiya is you can buy a afd 1 body for 800 dollars as back up to keep you going. Also MAC group in Long island (NY) is phenomenally quick and professional with repairs and loaners. I have been so impressed by them.
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With the variable delay to reduce mirror-shake, shutter-lag is related to Mirror-shake, but in the one page of specifications in the 8 page data-sheet for the HD4-60, this significant parameter is absent ...of course they should quote figures for normal operation, and with the mirror locked up.
...does anyone know the actual numbers claimed/quoted by the Phase and Hassy?
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Of course a nice thing about Mamiya is you can buy a afd 1 body for 800 dollars as back up to keep you going. Also MAC group in Long island (NY) is phenomenally quick and professional with repairs and loaners. I have been so impressed by them.
unfortunately they don't feature as much in rental houses these days. I had problems renting a AFDII backup when I was in NY for a job
hopefully phase one works on getting their cameras in the rental houses?good to have choice
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http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/06/business.../06adco.html?hp (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/06/business/media/06adco.html?hp)
About time.
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Does anybody else feel the prices are really high and when will we know if the new body is needed for the leaf shutter lens???
Snook
I don't know. 16,000 clams for a Mamiya, excuse me Phase body and three lenses seems high. Especially When Hasselblad was selling a Camera, a lens and a 31mpx back for $17,000.
Actually at those prices in seems like Phase is getting into Hy6 territory and the marketing seems the same.
Why do digital companies want to change the name of cameras from Rollei to AFI, Mamiya to Phase?
That's like calling a Hasselblad an Imacon. It's not that it's a bad name, but why throw away all of that brand recognition?
It would be as if Leica put a big red Jenoptik dot on their cameras because they went digital.
I don't get it, but thank God for black gaffers tape. Actually thank God for KEH.
BC
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Why do digital companies want to change the name of cameras from Rollei to AFI, Mamiya to Phase?
That's like calling a Hasselblad an Imacon. It's not that it's a bad name, but why throw away all of that brand recognition?
It would be as if Leica put a big red Jenoptik dot on their cameras because they went digital.
BC
Often in cases like this it's not a matter of choice.
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In my experience you need to shoot at 1/250 or above with an 80mm lens on an H series body to avoid blur from mirror slap.
I'm glad you prefaced your comment with "in my experience," because, in my experience, I've shot down to 1/60th with good results and I have no problem shooting at 1/125th with no blur. I don't use the shutter lag compensation either. I'm shooting with a well-worn H1 so it's not like I have the latest and greatest. The culprit may be the camera, but it could be shooting style as well.
John
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I'm glad you prefaced your comment with "in my experience," because, in my experience, I've shot down to 1/60th with good results and I have no problem shooting at 1/125th with no blur. I don't use the shutter lag compensation either. I'm shooting with a well-worn H1 so it's not like I have the latest and greatest. The culprit may be the camera, but it could be shooting style as well.
John
You might be able to get results at slower shutter speeds that you personally consider usable but can you get as sharp as the camera can do 99% of the time at 1/60 or even 1/125? I believe the answer is 'no' regardless of shooting style.
If you disagree, do this test: Point the camera at something like some posters with fine text on them that the camera can just resolve, fire off 10 frames each at different shutter speeds and look at your results at 100%. If you are very good/lucky you might have a fairly high success rate with 1/125 (forget 1/60) but I've done this with a few different assistants and no-one has even managed 70%. If you want to be thorough, stick the camera on a tripod, lock up the mirror, wait, and do a reference shot for comparison.
All this might sound a bit obsessive but the fact of the matter is that current MFDBs are only modestly superior to a D3x/1dsmkIII in terms of the detail they can resolve and you are chucking that out of the window if your shots aren't sharp because of camera shake. Knowing what the bodies can and can't do is therefore imperative. (Especially given what an expensive hassle they are).
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You might be able to get results at slower shutter speeds that you personally consider usable but can you get as sharp as the camera can do 99% of the time at 1/60 or even 1/125? I believe the answer is 'no' regardless of shooting style.
If you disagree, do this test (...)
I'd agree here.
Actually you can do the test the other way around as well. Mount the camera on a very good tripod. Shoot with decreasing shutter speeds. You'll determine clearly the shutter speed when the mirror/camera shake affects sharpness. So even if you are very, very good in shooting handheld there is no way that you can shoot below the respective shutter speed. With the Contax this is 1/60'' (clearly noticable with the P45, the P21+ is more forgiving)... so 1/125'' is the barrier for shooting handheld regardless of the focal length. But... it's really a matter of personal taste and the subject as well. With the P21+ I get "usable" results at 1/30''... of course not tack sharp but sometimes that is not required.
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As far as I know there is a upgrade price from a AFD 3 if you bought it in the last year for around 1500US. Could be wrong, but it exists in Germany.
Exists in the UK too, the email I just received from Phase says,
"Any customer that purchased a Phase One 645AF Camera Body from 1st October 2008 until 1st October 2009
can upgrade their 645AF body to the new 645DF body for £1200.00 + VAT. Body only price £3900.00 + VAT"