Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: xinchenc on September 28, 2009, 01:36:44 am
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Schneider is to provide leaf shutter lenses to Phaseone 645DF. Lenses are designed by Schneider, and lens elements will be provided by Schneider. Lenses will be assembled in Japan by Mamiya.
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Schneider is to provide leaf shutter lenses to Phaseone 645DF. Lenses are designed by Schneider, and lens elements will be provided by Schneider. Lenses will be assembled in Japan by Mamiya.
Hmmm-- Great news, the Schneiders are near unsurpassed for accuracy-- but sort of putting a Ferrari engine in a Trabant body unfortunately.
Now if Sinar or Rollei would make a body for Phase-- but fairytales don't come true in reality--sadly
Des
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Mamiya body is good, solid and confortable! Where can we find official announcments of the schneider phaseone lenses?
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Schneider is to provide leaf shutter lenses to Phaseone 645DF. Lenses are designed by Schneider, and lens elements will be provided by Schneider. Lenses will be assembled in Japan by Mamiya.
This does not surprise me as Schneider has to do something since the end of the Hy6. They will do a good job but I hope the price is not too high.
Denis
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LOL, too true Des. :-)
But it is all about the lenses after all, the Leica's look good, hope they don't go the same way as AFI/Hy6, it is good to have options and the Schneiders will add to the appeal of the Phase for some people.
Jason.
Hmmm-- Great news, the Schneiders are near unsurpassed for accuracy-- but sort of putting a Ferrari engine in a Trabant body unfortunately.
Now if Sinar or Rollei would make a body for Phase-- but fairytales don't come true in reality--sadly
Des
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Eh eh, they will cost a lot, but i have many reserves about third party lenses... 9 months ago Leica was talking about making their lenses in PhaseOne mounts... The D phase lenses are good, maybe a better 35mm?
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Schneider is to provide leaf shutter lenses to Phaseone 645DF. Lenses are designed by Schneider, and lens elements will be provided by Schneider. Lenses will be assembled in Japan by Mamiya.
Well... perhaps the Hasselblad HD4-60 will have some competition after all?
Members here tried to "shout me down" when I asked if Mamiya still make awful yellow lenses that make everything look as if it was taken with high speed ektachrome.
Panasonic use Leica lenses... what other Pacific rim camera manufacturers use European lenses?
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Well... perhaps the Hasselblad HD4-60 will have some competition after all?
Members here tried to "shout me down" when I asked if Mamiya still make awful yellow lenses that make everything look as if it was taken with high speed ektachrome.
Panasonic use Leica lenses... what other Pacific rim camera manufacturers use European lenses?
Well, I don't know if Sony is a "rim camera", but they use some Zeiss lenses and, IIRC, Samsung uses Schneider Kreuznach, too, or at least they put this name on their lenses.
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Well... perhaps the Hasselblad HD4-60 will have some competition after all?
Members here tried to "shout me down" when I asked if Mamiya still make awful yellow lenses that make everything look as if it was taken with high speed ektachrome.
Panasonic use Leica lenses... what other Pacific rim camera manufacturers use European lenses?
Well, sometims you eat the bear, sometimes the bear eats you...
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Mamiya body is good, solid and confortable! Where can we find official announcments of the schneider phaseone lenses?
Someone has broken a (very short) news embargo. Official news from Phase One's dealer conference will be available soon.
Some very exciting news though.
Doug Peterson ()
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
RSS Feed: Subscribe (http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/)
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Panasonic use Leica lenses... what other Pacific rim camera manufacturers use European lenses?
Samsung, with its "Schneider-Krueznach" branded lenses? Kodak (on the other edge of the Pacific), also with some Schneider-Krueznach branding? None of those are truly Schneider-Krueznach designed and made of course. Likewise, Panasonic uses lenses that are made in Japan by an unstated manufacturer and that have some Leica input to QC and perhaps to design; Panasonic has never claimed anything more. The situation is similar with the Sony-Zeiss joint project lenses, AFAIK.
And in the opposite direction, all current medium format AF systems use "Japanese" lenses: Fujinon for the the Hasselblad H system.
Can we please drop this "technological racism", and judge products on their actual demonstrated virtues, not national origin?
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Can we please drop this "technological racism", and judge products on their actual demonstrated virtues, not national origin?
I agree, and will just as soon as Leica stops touting "Made in Germany" and "German Engineering".
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Entirely different production philosophies, different education systems, different social standards = different quality.
The true rip-off is using a brand name to gain higher profits but not using the standards (not just QC) of the company behind this brand name. The customers pays too much, the company with the brand name damages it's image, only the sharholders are happy...
I don't need a Pnasonic with a red dot, I rather buy a Lumix...
Mechanic quality is crucial to lens-quality, especially centering (correct English-term?) guarantees real-world quality besides theoretical, calculated MTF... Leica and Zeiss use special technologies, machines and skilled workers to centrate their lens-assemblies - and they don't give this know-how away to any of their "partners" (Panasonic, Sony) - it stays in Oberkochen and Solms. I'm sure Schneider-Kreuznach has some delicate know-how, either - I hope for Mamiya that they deliver them complete lens assemblies.
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Here is the complete text of the Phase One Announcements...
Announcing the PHASE ONE 645DF Medium Format CAMERA
The Perfect Body for your Perfect Back
COPENHAGEN, September 28, 2009 – Phase One, the world’s leader in open-platform medium format camera systems and solutions, today announced the Phase One 645DF camera. Engineered in partnership with Mamiya Digital Imaging for superior quality image capture and ease of handling, it sets a new standard for high flash sync speeds – up to 1/1600 of a second.
Also today, Phase One announced the availability of three new high performance leaf shutter lenses, 55mm, 80mm and 110mm, all f/2.8 and all designed with the Phase One 645DF camera in mind. The lenses are a result of close collaboration with Mamiya Digital Imaging and Schneider Kreuznach (see today’s related announcement).
“Our patent-pending flash sync breakthrough eases working with wide open apertures and fill-in flash on location,” said Jan H. Christiansen, Phase One marketing director. “We already offer the most flexible exposure times ranging from 1/4000 of a second to one full hour. Setting new performance standards is all about expanding creative options for photographers.”
The 645DF camera is the only 645 medium format camera which supports both focal plane and leaf shutters, expanding photographers’ innovative possibilities by leveraging the two shutter technologies seamlessly for world class photography, whether this involves ultra-fast flash sync speeds or extremely flexible exposure times.
The new camera introduces many performance improvements over its predecessor. Capture responsiveness and autofocus speed is highly improved giving photographers up to 5 times faster performance in a typical fashion set up.
The 645DF also offers a breakthrough workflow improvement -- custom-shooting modes. For the first time in a medium-format camera, photographers can “dial up” a pre-defined mode, where the camera is instantly set up for a given shooting scenario, e.g. product, portrait or landscape photography.
Other workflow enhancements include new tactile buttons, a fully sealed eye-cup eliminating ambient light, improved viewfinder masks, and customizable audio feedback e.g. on focus lock. Several custom functions have been enhanced, without compromising simple navigation.
Freedom to choose the best back for you
Phase One builds flexible, open photographic systems to support a professional’s style, needs and working preference. The Phase One 645DF camera supports the world’s finest digital backs, ensuring freedom of choice and investment protection for years to come. It is compatible with digital backs designed for the Phase One / Mamiya AFD mount, including backs from Phase One, Leaf, Mamiya and others.
Pricing and Availability
The Phase One 645DF camera body starts at $5990/€4290 and is expected to ship Q4, 2009. The new leaf shutter lenses start at $2490/€1790 and are expected to start shipping Q4, 2009. All equipment can be ordered now from Phase One and Leaf dealers (for the dealer near you, please see: http://www.phaseone.com/partners (http://www.phaseone.com/partners) and http://www.leaf-photography.com/dealers.asp) (http://www.leaf-photography.com/dealers.asp)).
About Phase One
Phase One is the world’s leader in open-platform based medium format camera systems and solutions. Phase One medium format cameras, digital backs and lenses are designed to deliver superior quality image capture and investment value. Phase One’s Capture One software helps streamline capture and post-production processes for both medium format and DSLR cameras. Phase One products are known for their quality, flexibility and speed enabling pro photographers shooting in a wide range of formats to achieve their creative visions without compromise.
Phase One is an employee-owned company based in Copenhagen with offices in New York, London, Tokyo, Cologne and Shanghai.
For more information about the products, visit the Phase One web site on www.phaseone.com.
Phase One is a registered trademark of Phase One A/S. All other brand or product names are trademarks or registered trademarks of their respective holders.
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Schneider Kreuznach, Phase One, Mamiya Digital Imaging
Cooperate to Drive Innovations in Medium Format Digital Lenses
Expanding Range of Lens Options for Pro Photographers
BAD KREUZNACH, Germany, COPENHAGEN and TOKYO, Sept. 28, 2009 — Schneider Kreuznach, Phase One A/S and Mamiya Digital Imaging, Ltd. today announced that they are collaborating on design, development, manufacturing, and delivery of superior quality, precision digital lenses for the medium format camera systems used by the world’s most discriminating professional photographers.
“Our vision of offering photographers freedom to choose from what is best in photographic equipment is at the heart of our cooperation with Schneider Kreuznach,” said Henrik Håkonsson, President and CEO of Phase One. “We are committed to sharing expertise in digital imaging technology with the world’s most respected companies to push the limits of excellence for photographers.”
“We are pleased to contribute our optical expertise within a very creative group,” said Dr. Josef Staub, Managing Director of Schneider Kreuznach. “As we pioneer advancements in optical lens design, the photographic market can look forward to new, extraordinary lenses.”
“Successful teamwork has already resulted in the world’s most open medium format camera platform,” said Toshio Midorikawa, President of Mamiya Digital Imaging. “Now we take another step, as we share our manufacturing expertise with Schneider Kreuznach’s optical design talents to benefit the world’s photographers.”
The first results of this collaboration are the 55mm, 80mm and 110mm leaf shutter lenses designed for the Phase One 645DF and Mamiya 645DF cameras. The lenses can be ordered now and will start shipping Q4, 2009.
About Mamiya Digital Imaging
Mamiya Digital Imaging is the digital successor to the reputable Mamiya brand, an innovative company fresh with enthusiasm and dedicated to continuing a legacy of excellence. Mamiya has consistently been a fore-runner in medium format camera design, and Mamiya lenses, manufactured following a tradition of precision and quality, are celebrated world-wide. For the Professional Photographer, it is the ultimate brand in photographic equipment.
Mamiya Digital Imaging is headquartered in Tokyo with two factories in Japan, and has distributors in more than 100 countries.
For more information about products, visit the Mamiya homepage on www.mamiya.co.jp
About Phase One
Phase One is the world’s leader in open-platform based medium format camera systems and solutions. Phase One medium format cameras, digital backs and lenses are designed to deliver superior quality image capture and investment value. Phase One Capture One software helps streamline capture and post-production processes for both medium format and DSLR cameras. Phase One products are known for their quality, flexibility and speed enabling pro photographers shooting in a wide range of formats to achieve their creative visions without compromise.
Phase One is an employee-owned company based in Copenhagen with offices in New York, London, Tokyo, Cologne and Shanghai.
For more information about the products, visit the Phase One Web site on www.phaseone.com.
About the Schneider Group
The Schneider Group specializes in developing and producing high-performance photographic lenses, cinema projection lenses, as well as industrial optics and precision mechanics. The group comprises Jos. Schneider Optische Werke, founded in Bad Kreuznach in 1913, and its subsidiaries Pentacon (Dresden), B+W Filterfabrik (ISCO) (Göttingen ), Schneider-Optics (New York, Los Angeles),
Schneider Bando (Seoul), Schneider Asia Pacific (Hong Kong) and Schneider Optical Technologies (Shenzhen). The company’s main brand is “Schneider-Kreuznach." It has around 640 employees worldwide, with 335 based in its German headquarters. For years now the group has been a world market leader in the area of high-performance lenses.
Phase One is a registered trademarks of Phase One A/S. Mamiya is a registered trademark of Mamiya Digital Imaging Co., Ltd. Schneider-Kreuznach is a registered trademark of Jos. Schneider Optische Werke GmbH.
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They listened. Has anyone seen, or more importantl used the camera? If they managed to rid the camera of shutter lag, the AF is improved, this could be the real deal.
Here is the complete text of the Phase One Announcements...
Announcing the PHASE ONE 645DF Medium Format CAMERA
The Perfect Body for your Perfect Back
COPENHAGEN, September 28, 2009 – Phase One, the world’s leader in open-platform medium format camera systems and solutions, today announced the Phase One 645DF camera. Engineered in partnership with Mamiya Digital Imaging for superior quality image capture and ease of handling, it sets a new standard for high flash sync speeds – up to 1/1600 of a second.
Also today, Phase One announced the availability of three new high performance leaf shutter lenses, 55mm, 80mm and 110mm, all f/2.8 and all designed with the Phase One 645DF camera in mind. The lenses are a result of close collaboration with Mamiya Digital Imaging and Schneider Kreuznach (see today’s related announcement).
“Our patent-pending flash sync breakthrough eases working with wide open apertures and fill-in flash on location,” said Jan H. Christiansen, Phase One marketing director. “We already offer the most flexible exposure times ranging from 1/4000 of a second to one full hour. Setting new performance standards is all about expanding creative options for photographers.”
The 645DF camera is the only 645 medium format camera which supports both focal plane and leaf shutters, expanding photographers’ innovative possibilities by leveraging the two shutter technologies seamlessly for world class photography, whether this involves ultra-fast flash sync speeds or extremely flexible exposure times.
The new camera introduces many performance improvements over its predecessor. Capture responsiveness and autofocus speed is highly improved giving photographers up to 5 times faster performance in a typical fashion set up.
The 645DF also offers a breakthrough workflow improvement -- custom-shooting modes. For the first time in a medium-format camera, photographers can “dial up” a pre-defined mode, where the camera is instantly set up for a given shooting scenario, e.g. product, portrait or landscape photography.
Other workflow enhancements include new tactile buttons, a fully sealed eye-cup eliminating ambient light, improved viewfinder masks, and customizable audio feedback e.g. on focus lock. Several custom functions have been enhanced, without compromising simple navigation.
Freedom to choose the best back for you
Phase One builds flexible, open photographic systems to support a professional’s style, needs and working preference. The Phase One 645DF camera supports the world’s finest digital backs, ensuring freedom of choice and investment protection for years to come. It is compatible with digital backs designed for the Phase One / Mamiya AFD mount, including backs from Phase One, Leaf, Mamiya and others.
Pricing and Availability
The Phase One 645DF camera body starts at $5990/€4290 and is expected to ship Q4, 2009. The new leaf shutter lenses start at $2490/€1790 and are expected to start shipping Q4, 2009. All equipment can be ordered now from Phase One and Leaf dealers (for the dealer near you, please see: http://www.phaseone.com/partners (http://www.phaseone.com/partners) and http://www.leaf-photography.com/dealers.asp) (http://www.leaf-photography.com/dealers.asp)).
About Phase One
Phase One is the world’s leader in open-platform based medium format camera systems and solutions. Phase One medium format cameras, digital backs and lenses are designed to deliver superior quality image capture and investment value. Phase One’s Capture One software helps streamline capture and post-production processes for both medium format and DSLR cameras. Phase One products are known for their quality, flexibility and speed enabling pro photographers shooting in a wide range of formats to achieve their creative visions without compromise.
Phase One is an employee-owned company based in Copenhagen with offices in New York, London, Tokyo, Cologne and Shanghai.
For more information about the products, visit the Phase One web site on www.phaseone.com.
Phase One is a registered trademark of Phase One A/S. All other brand or product names are trademarks or registered trademarks of their respective holders.
# # #
Schneider Kreuznach, Phase One, Mamiya Digital Imaging
Cooperate to Drive Innovations in Medium Format Digital Lenses
Expanding Range of Lens Options for Pro Photographers
BAD KREUZNACH, Germany, COPENHAGEN and TOKYO, Sept. 28, 2009 — Schneider Kreuznach, Phase One A/S and Mamiya Digital Imaging, Ltd. today announced that they are collaborating on design, development, manufacturing, and delivery of superior quality, precision digital lenses for the medium format camera systems used by the world’s most discriminating professional photographers.
“Our vision of offering photographers freedom to choose from what is best in photographic equipment is at the heart of our cooperation with Schneider Kreuznach,” said Henrik Håkonsson, President and CEO of Phase One. “We are committed to sharing expertise in digital imaging technology with the world’s most respected companies to push the limits of excellence for photographers.”
“We are pleased to contribute our optical expertise within a very creative group,” said Dr. Josef Staub, Managing Director of Schneider Kreuznach. “As we pioneer advancements in optical lens design, the photographic market can look forward to new, extraordinary lenses.”
“Successful teamwork has already resulted in the world’s most open medium format camera platform,” said Toshio Midorikawa, President of Mamiya Digital Imaging. “Now we take another step, as we share our manufacturing expertise with Schneider Kreuznach’s optical design talents to benefit the world’s photographers.”
The first results of this collaboration are the 55mm, 80mm and 110mm leaf shutter lenses designed for the Phase One 645DF and Mamiya 645DF cameras. The lenses can be ordered now and will start shipping Q4, 2009.
About Mamiya Digital Imaging
Mamiya Digital Imaging is the digital successor to the reputable Mamiya brand, an innovative company fresh with enthusiasm and dedicated to continuing a legacy of excellence. Mamiya has consistently been a fore-runner in medium format camera design, and Mamiya lenses, manufactured following a tradition of precision and quality, are celebrated world-wide. For the Professional Photographer, it is the ultimate brand in photographic equipment.
Mamiya Digital Imaging is headquartered in Tokyo with two factories in Japan, and has distributors in more than 100 countries.
For more information about products, visit the Mamiya homepage on www.mamiya.co.jp
About Phase One
Phase One is the world’s leader in open-platform based medium format camera systems and solutions. Phase One medium format cameras, digital backs and lenses are designed to deliver superior quality image capture and investment value. Phase One Capture One software helps streamline capture and post-production processes for both medium format and DSLR cameras. Phase One products are known for their quality, flexibility and speed enabling pro photographers shooting in a wide range of formats to achieve their creative visions without compromise.
Phase One is an employee-owned company based in Copenhagen with offices in New York, London, Tokyo, Cologne and Shanghai.
For more information about the products, visit the Phase One Web site on www.phaseone.com.
About the Schneider Group
The Schneider Group specializes in developing and producing high-performance photographic lenses, cinema projection lenses, as well as industrial optics and precision mechanics. The group comprises Jos. Schneider Optische Werke, founded in Bad Kreuznach in 1913, and its subsidiaries Pentacon (Dresden), B+W Filterfabrik (ISCO) (Göttingen ), Schneider-Optics (New York, Los Angeles),
Schneider Bando (Seoul), Schneider Asia Pacific (Hong Kong) and Schneider Optical Technologies (Shenzhen). The company’s main brand is “Schneider-Kreuznach." It has around 640 employees worldwide, with 335 based in its German headquarters. For years now the group has been a world market leader in the area of high-performance lenses.
Phase One is a registered trademarks of Phase One A/S. Mamiya is a registered trademark of Mamiya Digital Imaging Co., Ltd. Schneider-Kreuznach is a registered trademark of Jos. Schneider Optische Werke GmbH.
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Dave Gallagher, Owner of Capture Integration went to Denmark to get hands on time with the body and new lenses.
He will be happy to take any and all questions - the only catch is he is still in his return journey and so may take a day or two (which in internet-time is decades!) :-).
So anyway, if you have specific questions please put them here and if no one else chimes in to answer, then Dave or I will.
Doug Peterson ()
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
RSS Feed: Subscribe (http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/)
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They listened. Has anyone seen, or more importantl used the camera? If they managed to rid the camera of shutter lag, the AF is improved, this could be the real deal.
TMARK, what shutter lag are you talking about? As a potential buyer, this is one issue i have not heard of. please explain your experience here.
thanks
RE
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TMARK, what shutter lag are you talking about? As a potential buyer, this is one issue i have not heard of. please explain your experience here.
thanks
RE
With the Mamiya AFd and AFdII there was this, to me, awful lag between pressing the shutter and an exposure being made. I believe that this lag is due to the Mamiya digital interface, which dates to what, 2002? I think its the interface because there is no real lag when shooting film, and there is much less lag when shooting the same brand/model back on an H1 or H2.
I have no experience with the AFD3, although I am told the lag is better, but not great. My perception is that the AFd3 was ready to go in 2005 but due to Mamiya's money problems was not introduced until Phase could inject some capital. I always thought that if the AFd gets a complete modern redesign, they will fix these problems. I hope they have, because what drove me from owning MFDB, aside from a change in my business, was that the cameras are all compromises. The H1, H2 had some problems, and were over priced. The H3 was nice, but I didn't want a Blad back. The AFi/HY6 was a non starter because I didn't know of anyone who had seen one first hand and they weren't in wide circulation through rentals. The AFd, which I had, was great with film, and great with a back if shutter lag wasn't an issue, but it really made me angry on more than a few occasions, mainly shooting portraits and fashion. What works best for me, right now anyway, is an H mount Aptus 54s on an RZ. It works sort of like it did with film, except for the crop. This new Phase camera might really be the answer, a camera designed for digital, not a reworked legacy film camera.
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TMARK, what shutter lag are you talking about? As a potential buyer, this is one issue i have not heard of. please explain your experience here.
Shutter lag is the time between pushing the shutter release and the picture actually being taken.
- The AFD1/2 had a shutter lag long enough to bake cookies.
- The Phase One 645 AF (AFD3) with early firmware had modest shutter lag.
- The Phase One 645 AFD3 with the current firmware has very little shutter lag.
Dave had hands on experience with the Phase One 645DF and will be reporting his hands-on results when he is back from DK. All expectations are that shutter lag can now be referred to as a quaint part of the history of this system, but I will wait for his hands on report to be sure.
Doug Peterson ()
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
RSS Feed: Subscribe (http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/)
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Quick comparison of the full shutter speed range of the P1DF, H2D/H3D/H4D, and S2 with the flash-sync-capable speeds in red.
(http://www.captureintegration.com/download/PhaseOneDF-ShutterSpeed.jpg)
Obviously the vast vast majority of shooting gets down in the 1 second to 1/500th range. It's nice to know your system is not going to limit your creativity though for those situations where especially fast shutter speeds, especially long exposures, or high-speed-sync is required.
Also a quick word to those who have never shot a leaf shutter lens. The "high-speed sync mode" offered by Canon/Nikon through their flash systems is no where close to the flexibility of a true leaf shutter lens (though they are obviously great and very welcome options within the constraints of a focal plane shutter system). The high speed flash sync of a leaf shutter lens (such as those being offered within the Phase One system) can be used at full flash power with most any flash system.
The dotted line for the Phase system between 1 and 4 hours is because the longest exposure is not a hard limit, but rather determined by the ambient temperature. 11 hour exposures are possible at -11C. Full Chart (http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/phase-one-tech-specs/).
Doug Peterson ()
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
RSS Feed: Subscribe (http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/)
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(http://www.photographyblog.com/images/sized/images/uploads/Phase_one_DF-LS_family_hvidp-550x327.jpg)
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I think this is interesting news. We're inching our way to something real someday. When these lenses are actually for sale is another thing.
But is Phase/Mamiya kidding here: "The Phase One 645DF camera body starts at $5990"
I beg your pardon, but what exactly is in this camera body, a small bar of GOLD. Someone would have to be on drugs to pay $6K for only a Mamiya body. A crack pipe smokin' dream on their part.
But now it's got focus beep!
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I think this is interesting news. We're inching our way to something real someday. When these lenses are actually for sale is another thing.
But is Phase/Mamiya kidding here: "The Phase One 645DF camera body starts at $5990"
I beg your pardon, but what exactly is in this camera body, a small bar of GOLD. Someone would have to be on drugs to pay $6K for only a Mamiya body. A crack pipe smokin' dream on their part.
It does seem a lot. However, if this had AF that was closer to a DSLR in speed and leaf shutter lenses, then I think professionals at the upper levels would have no problem paying for it. Why not when a 1DsIII or a top line Nikon DSLR costs that sort of money? Admittedly those latter DSLR's have the sensor, but its not a wildly incorrect comparison.
As far as I can see, Mamiya was charging too little for some of its gear, and struggling. Some of the deals to buy market share were probably helping to kill off their innovation. I got my Mamiya virtually free in a bundle with the Leaf Aptus. I was glad for it, but I've no idea how much commercial sense it made.
Then there is that 80mm lens. Yes, thats a lot of money. But its Schneider glass, with a Leaf Shutter. If it delivers, I think it will earn its money.
With business the way its been this year, I wont be running out to buy them straight away, but I would budget for them longer term. Especially if I can still use my AFD lenses and gradually upgrade to the newer ones.
We need MF cameras to approach the DSLR's in terms of usability while offering the highest optical standards.
And its open, so I'd be able to buy one and continue using my Leaf back. If Phamiya get this right there will be a clear choice between Hassy (closed) and Phamiya (open). The market will speak.
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But is Phase/Mamiya kidding here: "The Phase One 645DF camera body starts at $5990"
What do the 645 AF alternatives cost? In fact, just one current alternative, a Hasselblad H3D body with VF. Not sold alone AFAIK, but that combo. does seem to add about $7,000 to the back price.
Yes, MF body prices are scarily higher than in the film era: welcome to the dark side of economies of scale, when R&D costs have to be shared over about ten thousand customers while mainstream DSLR makers can share their costs between millions of customers, so that ten times the R&D expense costs one tenth as much per customer. "Faster, better, cheaper" as NASA used to say.
In fact, the recent debate about the new Hasselblad AF system shows that even full 35mm format DSLRs can suffer in this way compared to far higher volume mainstream formats like DX, EF-S and 4/3:
- Mainstream DLSR formats, along with the Canon 1D, get multi-point AF modules optimized for those formats.
- 35mm format DSLRs often have to use the above AF modules as hand-me-downs, putting up with too tightly clustered AF points.
- DMF has to make the best of a single AF point, because the far lower sales volume and lower revenues cannot support the cost of keeping up with the sophistication of the AF offered in even some $500 DSLR's (e.g the new Pentax K-x.)
Compared to this, complaining about the LCD's on DMF backs seems petty.
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It does seem a lot. However, if this had AF that was closer to a DSLR in speed and leaf shutter lenses, then I think professionals at the upper levels would have no problem paying for it. Why not when a 1DsIII or a top line Nikon DSLR costs that sort of money? Admittedly those latter DSLR's have the sensor, but its not a wildly incorrect comparison.
As far as I can see, Mamiya was charging too little for some of its gear, and struggling. Some of the deals to buy market share were probably helping to kill off their innovation. I got my Mamiya virtually free in a bundle with the Leaf Aptus. I was glad for it, but I've no idea how much commercial sense it made.
Then there is that 80mm lens. Yes, thats a lot of money. But its Schneider glass, with a Leaf Shutter. If it delivers, I think it will earn its money.
With business the way its been this year, I wont be running out to buy them straight away, but I would budget for them longer term. Especially if I can still use my AFD lenses and gradually upgrade to the newer ones.
We need MF cameras to approach the DSLR's in terms of usability while offering the highest optical standards.
And its open, so I'd be able to buy one and continue using my Leaf back. If Phamiya get this right there will be a clear choice between Hassy (closed) and Phamiya (open). The market will speak.
someone just posted a comparison of the old and new leaf shutter 80mm lens on the other forum.
doesn't look much different.
Actually I don't understand what's the deal about an "open" system? H2 cameras are being used with Phase One, just that future innovation is focused on Hassy cameras.
Well you know there's no more need for an "open" platform because there are basically two manufacturers left in the market. Phase One and Hassy.
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I'm both excited and troubled by this news. Excited because these lenses are bound to be fantastic if they are anything like what I've used with my Rollei. But troubled because of the path that resulted in this union. I like the phase backs and the schneider lenses... I'm just bummed that these two couldn't have been combined with a more advanced camera. I may be wrong but my impression is that a 10 year old Rollei 6008 AF is still more advanced and better featured than the latest and greatest phamiya body. I also had hopped to see the 6x6 format option...
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Doug, do you know if there is the facility to lock the mirror up and use the leaf shutter to make exposures repeatedly without mirror coming down?
obviously you get no TTL viewfinder, but with an external finder in the hotshoe, you would have a very (very) quiet, no mirror shake camera. With MF quality digibacks, this could be an interesting CF option.
hopefully this can at least be a CF option, as I cant see any mechanical reason why the mirror needs to go up and down before the next exposure.
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I'm both excited and troubled by this news. Excited because these lenses are bound to be fantastic if they are anything like what I've used with my Rollei. But troubled because of the path that resulted in this union. I like the phase backs and the schneider lenses... I'm just bummed that these two couldn't have been combined with a more advanced camera. I may be wrong but my impression is that a 10 year old Rollei 6008 AF is still more advanced and better featured than the latest and greatest phamiya body. I also had hopped to see the 6x6 format option...
+1
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Well you know there's no more need for an "open" platform because there are basically two manufacturers left in the market. Phase One and Hassy.
"Open" can mean different things to different people. I for one think that if you can use your 5 yr old digital back (from any manufacturer) on the latest camera body and with new lenses, then it makes the new system more "open".
I might be wrong but I doubt the H4D will be sold as a separate body to be used with current and/ or older H'blad backs
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"Open" can mean different things to different people. I for one think that if you can use your 5 yr old digital back (from any manufacturer) on the latest camera body and with new lenses, then it makes the new system more "open".
I might be wrong but I doubt the H4D will be sold as a separate body to be used with current and/ or older H'blad backs
considering that it costs about $2000 to adapt the 5 year old digital back to fit the new camera mount?
oh wait, does Leaf still offer that service? I forgot, it folded and I'm not even sure if the backs we bought from Leaf back then are still supported now.
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considering that it costs about $2000 to adapt the 5 year old digital back to fit the new camera mount?
oh wait, does Leaf still offer that service? I forgot, it folded and I'm not even sure if the backs we bought from Leaf back then are still supported now.
The camera mount is the same as the one on the AFD/II/III so there is no mount change involved but if someone needs a mount change then yes Leaf does offer that service.
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Why can't the actual companies of Phase and Mamiya state that clearly from the start. The practical and important information shouldn't be omitted intentionally.
Agreed, but Phase has a history of dishonest marketing. I don't know why they feel they have to do it - the products are good.
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here comes some actual interesting news: schneider lenses! YES! with a leaf 1/1600 shutter! now that is what i call fun! prices are not bad for what we are looking at...the question is: will they work with ANY 645afd? or just the latest one...i never had any problems with shutterlag with 645 II or III to be honest....AF yes, 1/125 YES, but shutterlag not really....anyway if they do work, the camera is a great system open to a TON of cheap (and very, very good) lenses and cheap and very, very good bodies....i don't understand this whole mamiya crap talk, i have never had any problems with 645 or rz's, and actually never heard of known problems with either system.....unlike hasselblad and rollei (and i really loved the 6008)....
i think this is the most exciting news in MF in the last year....
i will wait how the H4D really performs to make a decision....focus pocus magic...
but also: the S2 is looking pretty good as well compared with all these....if i was buying a system today, the S2 might just be the least expensive one....and really the only drawback now seems to be the 1/500 sync.....i really don't care about 40, 50 or 60mpix....i don't think there is much difference....
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I've had both the lens and body since lunchtime and have posted some samples and general observations over at GetDPI:
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.p...ed=1#post139341 (http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?p=139341&posted=1#post139341)
I would post it all again here but is seems daft to replicate.
Best
Tim Ashley
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I'm both excited and troubled by this news. Excited because these lenses are bound to be fantastic if they are anything like what I've used with my Rollei. But troubled because of the path that resulted in this union. I like the phase backs and the schneider lenses... I'm just bummed that these two couldn't have been combined with a more advanced camera. I may be wrong but my impression is that a 10 year old Rollei 6008 AF is still more advanced and better featured than the latest and greatest phamiya body. I also had hopped to see the 6x6 format option...
The new body seems to be an all new animal that very well may be more full featured/advanced etc than your 6008. We'll have to wait to see, won't we?
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They listened. Has anyone seen, or more importantl used the camera? If they managed to rid the camera of shutter lag, the AF is improved, this could be the real deal.
Hi
We used the Mamiya DF in June this year with a P65+ back. The body was not a full production model. We were doing a flash test between the Scoro & the Profoto Air. Yes the shutter lag was much improved to even the latest AFDIII body. BTW the file quality from the 65+ was the best I have ever seen from any MFD back. The new lenses at f 2.8 look good.
Cheers Denis
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I think this is interesting news. We're inching our way to something real someday. When these lenses are actually for sale is another thing.
But is Phase/Mamiya kidding here: "The Phase One 645DF camera body starts at $5990"
I beg your pardon, but what exactly is in this camera body, a small bar of GOLD. Someone would have to be on drugs to pay $6K for only a Mamiya body. A crack pipe smokin' dream on their part.
Ha!--I totally agree--you can't polish a turd!
Des
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Hi
We used the Mamiya DF in June this year with a P65+ back. The body was not a full production model. We were doing a flash test between the Scoro & the Profoto Air. Yes the shutter lag was much improved to even the latest AFDIII body. BTW the file quality from the 65+ was the best I have ever seen from any MFD back. The new lenses at f 2.8 look good.
Cheers Denis
Good to hear. More importantly, Pro 8 or Scoro?
T
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Good to hear. More importantly, Pro 8 or Scoro?
T
In our conclusion they were about the same. Maybe the Scoro had a slight edge but our back ground heads with the Profoto 8 were old heads & I was told that could make a difference. To me the big difference was light quality & I will be renting the Profoto 8 Air from now on especially if you are shooting people. They are both high end packs & our choice will be Profoto from now on.
Cheers Denis
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Ha!--I totally agree--you can't polish a turd!
Des
Indeed you cant polish one of those - buy hey! you can cover it with 'glitter' -
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BTW the file quality from the 65+ was the best I have ever seen from any MFD back.
Denis,
Take this in a positive way, but this is the $64,000 question, or should I say the $52,000 question;
Are you going to purchase a P65+, new Phase Body and three new lenses?
I ask this because these forums always light up with the _______ is the best in the world, or the best skin tones, or the whatever, but 95% of those people posting are using 22mpx backs hooked to older used cameras and many of those people are shooting their real pressured projects with a 5d2 or a D3x or some kind of dslr.
Want, need and buy seem to be in three seperate catagories.
Had the same people that raved about the HY6 went out that day and bought one, they would probably still be in business.
You and your partner do a lot of work in post, in fact I think that is part of your style, so at the end of the day, shooting a 22, 31, 39, or 60mpx back do you really see any difference after you've gone through 12 stages of post work and client corrections and if you do, are you going to write that $52,000 check?
Thx.
BC
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Good to hear. More importantly, Pro 8 or Scoro?
T
PDN comparison of Scoro and Pro 8:
http://tinyurl.com/y89cal3 (http://tinyurl.com/y89cal3)
In our Capture Integration Atlanta office just last week we did a speed comparison between the Scoro 3200ws and the ProFoto 8 2400ws packs. We found they were very similar at most settings until we got to the lower settings and it seemed that with regard to short flash durations the Scoro had an extra gear the Pro 8 did not (or at least we didn't see any control that indicated that nor did the manual describe any). Aside from that, we see the Pro 8 with 2 lamp outlets and simple, direct controls as an easy, no fuss performer. The Scoro has 3 outlets, and an LED menu that provides a host of control and specialized features, like recallable flash sequences, pre-set intervals, etc. It's a different approach than the Pro 8, but we did not find anything unintuitive about it.
Sorry for the mini review, but it was fresh in our minds.
Steve Hendrix
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The new body seems to be an all new animal that very well may be more full featured/advanced etc than your 6008. We'll have to wait to see, won't we?
Yes and certainly I hope its a great camera.
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Your mini review shows the powerpark recharging duration, in which case Scoro seems faster.
BUT Flash duration is flash duration. I would like to know what kind of device you used to meter that duration.
Xin
This was a very crude and (unfortunately) brief test. We used a fan as the subject and photographed it straight on with each pack. The results were based on the amount of blur (or lack of it) we were seeing with the blades. Very unscientific. With the Pro 8and the Scoro set to a power setting of (2.0) the results seemed similar, but at the same setting the Scoro allows you to reduce the flash duration 1/2000th of a second further and the results we saw their predictably showed the Scoro freezing the blade more effectively. As I said, up until that setting the results seemed roughly equivalent. I suppose since the packs are powering down from different starting positions (Scoro is 3200ws vs Pro 8 at 2400ws), the Scoro showed slightly better stopping power at the same reduction, but at a higher power setting.
Steve Hendrix
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Regarding bcooters post about my friends Dennis and Gay,they are smart,they get the client to pay for the MFDB rental.
That's the beauty,if you shoot advertising or high-end fashion.You don't need to own any expensive gear.
Just a 5DmkII,D3x or a 1DsMk3 will cover the lower end.
Probably most high end too!
If I ever need big files again,I'll just go out and rent a P65+ for the day.
Unless you use it everyday and you can't charge the client,why bother owning a P65+?
Also with the new Sony CCD 35mp sensor in the pipeline(hopefully going into the new Nikon) ,that would be more than enough for 99.9% of my work.
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Denis,
Take this in a positive way, but this is the $64,000 question, or should I say the $52,000 question;
Are you going to purchase a P65+, new Phase Body and three new lenses?
I ask this because these forums always light up with the _______ is the best in the world, or the best skin tones, or the whatever, but 95% of those people posting are using 22mpx backs hooked to older used cameras and many of those people are shooting their real pressured projects with a 5d2 or a D3x or some kind of dslr.
Want, need and buy seem to be in three seperate catagories.
Had the same people that raved about the HY6 went out that day and bought one, they would probably still be in business.
You and your partner do a lot of work in post, in fact I think that is part of your style, so at the end of the day, shooting a 22, 31, 39, or 60mpx back do you really see any difference after you've gone through 12 stages of post work and client corrections and if you do, are you going to write that $52,000 check?
Thx.
BC
At this point in time no, however it would be nice. Renting MFD makes more sense at the moment. Due to time we shoot almost all our jobs on the Canon 1DsMKIII with the 5DMKII as backup. Post has always been a big part of what we do even when we were in the darkroom. Also I find the art directors are coming up with more complicated layouts because of photo shop & digital cameras. At least that is the way down here in Australia. We want to be shooting with the latest and the greatest so we don't buy - we rent. Also I think MFD has to do HDV.
Denis
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Isn't the above what I said in my post above the above?
Cheers,
Willem.
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Isn't the above what I said in my post above the above?
Cheers,
Willem.
Hi Yeah I know. How are you enjoying the Nikon.
Denis
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At this point in time no, however it would be nice. Renting MFD makes more sense at the moment. Due to time we shoot almost all our jobs on the Canon 1DsMKIII with the 5DMKII as backup. Post has always been a big part of what we do even when we were in the darkroom. Also I find the art directors are coming up with more complicated layouts because of photo shop & digital cameras. At least that is the way down here in Australia. We want to be shooting with the latest and the greatest so we don't buy - we rent. Also I think MFD has to do HDV.
Denis
Denis,
I understand your point and I'm not saying a new mfdb doesn't have a place, I just wonder how many people are going to actually buy a new back, new lenses and a new body all in one swoop compared to doing what you do, which is renting as required.
Maybe a lot of people will buy and if so that's good for the companies, obviously shows a healthy trend in our industry.
The rental thing seems to throw me as a business model though, because I don't know what's happening in your world, but in the States, I get a few e-mails a week from techs offering a RED, A 60mpx camera and back, a computer and their tech services for $1,100 per day. Maybe those aren't real prices but I get enough of them that I have to feel that's where some of the rental market is going.
I find all of this in a state of change right now, because in the same e-mail que I have about 10 offers of RED seminars and 3 offers of new 5d2 video accessories.
I look at this thread and see it's kind of mixed with cameras and high speed lighting and it's interesting because today I pulled out a little Casio camera I bought for an inset shot for a video we just finished.
It's small, looks kind of like a dslr but in video mode it shoots up to 3,000 frames a second or something absurd. I've only used it for this one gig, so know little about it but started playing with it and noticed it had a function to shoot still images at 60 fps with the onboard flash (or without) in still mode.
60 fps with flash. Really blew me away.
Now I know this is a toy, I think it cost $800, when compared to a new medium format back, but imagine if somebody made a true professional camera with these functions, 60 fps in still mode, 3,000 fps in video, wow, then I guess I would be answering the $64,000 question with a purchase.
Once again, this may just be a reflection of my market, but I know today, most of the people that work in still photography services, retouchers, stylists, crew are all having a challanged year. On the other hand the film editorial company I work with that has over 15,000 sq. ft. and 14 editing bays has been booked steady all year and today is booked solid for the next few months.
BC
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Denis,
I understand your point and I'm not saying a new mfdb doesn't have a place, I just wonder how many people are going to actually buy a new back, new lenses and a new body all in one swoop compared to doing what you do, which is renting as required.
Maybe a lot of people will buy and if so that's good for the companies, obviously shows a healthy trend in our industry.
The rental thing seems to throw me as a business model though, because I don't know what's happening in your world, but in the States, I get a few e-mails a week from techs offering a RED, A 60mpx camera and back, a computer and their tech services for $1,100 per day. Maybe those aren't real prices but I get enough of them that I have to feel that's where some of the rental market is going.
I find all of this in a state of change right now, because in the same e-mail que I have about 10 offers of RED seminars and 3 offers of new 5d2 video accessories.
I look at this thread and see it's kind of mixed with cameras and high speed lighting and it's interesting because today I pulled out a little Casio camera I bought for an inset shot for a video we just finished.
It's small, looks kind of like a dslr but in video mode it shoots up to 3,000 frames a second or something absurd. I've only used it for this one gig, so know little about it but started playing with it and noticed it had a function to shoot still images at 60 fps with the onboard flash (or without) in still mode.
60 fps with flash. Really blew me away.
Now I know this is a toy, I think it cost $800, when compared to a new medium format back, but imagine if somebody made a true professional camera with these functions, 60 fps in still mode, 3,000 fps in video, wow, then I guess I would be answering the $64,000 question with a purchase.
Once again, this may just be a reflection of my market, but I know today, most of the people that work in still photography services, retouchers, stylists, crew are all having a challanged year. On the other hand the film editorial company I work with that has over 15,000 sq. ft. and 14 editing bays has been booked steady all year and today is booked solid for the next few months.
BC
Hi
MFD is not doing well here at the moment as I know more photographers moving over to Canon & a few to Nikon. Phase does well with the backs & software. Hasselblad is no 1 for rental. In the AD world budgets are down woth clients asking more for less hence the migration to Canon, especially the 5DII. Went to a Canon talk at Panavision Australia on the 5DII this camera has been a huge hit. Seeing a $100.000 lens attached to a 5DII was amazing great pull focus! I could not believe the add ons they have come up with for this camera, shot gun microphones........... You can tell when a camera is a hit. The 30 fs is not the best, broadcast is 25 fs here & 24 fs in the US. The 7D has dealt with this. I don't even think Canon knew that the 5DII would be a hit in the film market. There was one director there who said he tried the 5DII & could not get it to work in his work flow but then again he was there.
Cheers Denis
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Will the faster syncs and leaf shutters operate with the Current Phase Body or only with the new DF?
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Did you try them at full power? I'm curious about the flash duration difference when you dial them up to 9(according to the techdata profoto is 1/1600s t05 and broncolor is 1/285s t01, incompareble)...
This was a very crude and (unfortunately) brief test. We used a fan as the subject and photographed it straight on with each pack. The results were based on the amount of blur (or lack of it) we were seeing with the blades. Very unscientific. With the Pro 8and the Scoro set to a power setting of (2.0) the results seemed similar, but at the same setting the Scoro allows you to reduce the flash duration 1/2000th of a second further and the results we saw their predictably showed the Scoro freezing the blade more effectively. As I said, up until that setting the results seemed roughly equivalent. I suppose since the packs are powering down from different starting positions (Scoro is 3200ws vs Pro 8 at 2400ws), the Scoro showed slightly better stopping power at the same reduction, but at a higher power setting.
Steve Hendrix
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Did you try them at full power? I'm curious about the flash duration difference when you dial them up to 9(according to the techdata profoto is 1/1600s t05 and broncolor is 1/285s t01, incompareble)...
No, but we will have a more extensive test sometime in the next 30 days.
Steve Hendrix
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Also with the new Sony CCD 35mp sensor in the pipeline(hopefully going into the new Nikon)
I think that this 35MP sensor story is a fake. For one thing, the PDF describing it at
http://photorumors.com/2009/09/13/new-sony...ii-with-34-8mp/ (http://photorumors.com/2009/09/13/new-sony-full-frame-sensor-ccd-superhad-ii-with-34-8mp/)
is titled as being part of the "Featuring" section of CX-news
http://www.sony.net/Products/SC-HP/cx_news/index.html (http://www.sony.net/Products/SC-HP/cx_news/index.html)
a Sony web magazine, but when you go to the site collecting all those "Featuring" stories,
http://www.sony.net/Products/SC-HP/cx_news/featuring.html (http://www.sony.net/Products/SC-HP/cx_news/featuring.html)
this one is not there. What there is instead is a related story about the new Super HAD CCD II type of sensors in volume 52,
http://www.sony.net/Products/SC-HP/cx_news...featuring1.html (http://www.sony.net/Products/SC-HP/cx_news/vol52/featuring1.html)
http://www.sony.net/Products/SC-HP/cx_news...featuring52.pdf (http://www.sony.net/Products/SC-HP/cx_news/vol52/pdf/featuring52.pdf)
but that is about far smaller sensors for security cameras. The only place I have even seen Sony use "Super HAD CCD" is for security camera. The 35MP sensor PDF looks like a cut-up of that real article. One indication of it being a fake is the spelling error "industrie" and the terminal "y" missing from "Sensitiv" in the figure caption; another is some very ugly, amateurish line breaks, not seen in the real "Featuring" PDF's.
Also, Sony is using Exmor CMOS in all its high end DSLR sensors, not CCDs.
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Did you try them at full power? I'm curious about the flash duration difference when you dial them up to 9(according to the techdata profoto is 1/1600s t05 and broncolor is 1/285s t01, incompareble)...
I don't really know about numbers and even testing I find difficult unless I test in the exact same scene and conditions I plan to shoot.
For this ad series we brought talent in and went through a few of the scenarios and tried profoto bi-tubes split to different packs and
at the end of the day, went with acutes for fill and photogenic monoblocks for the keys and side lights, as it gave me just the right amount of freeze with certain blur on stuff that should blur.
[attachment=16862:sharp.jpg]
You can't really tell from these jpegs, but the eyes are pin sharp obviously the tennis racket has movement, though it should and there is some post work to this, though not as much as I thought
there would be.
I shot this with Contaxs and the P30+ and I think the sync was on 1/125th.
Everybody talks and seems to want the latest and greatest, but usually I find that I just use what works, what I have (I think we have about 25 of these old monoblocks) and what fits the budget.
BTW: These images were printed huge, like 2 story building huge.
But numbers, I don't know about numbers, just the image.
JR
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I agree that art is not about numbers most of the times. But for some kind of art number is the key.
Asume I want to do a splash shot of a athlete under direct sunlight and use flash to darken the sun, I want the splashes to be sharp, then the full power flash duration would be important. (or simply I neet more power to do a freeze shot, then the full power flash duration would be important too)
I did this with a kind of lamp which worth less than $400, tack sharp splashes. I didn't rent any luxury equipments only because I know the numbers(guess what did I use?).
I don't really know about numbers and even testing I find difficult unless I test in the exact same scene and conditions I plan to shoot.
But numbers, I don't know about numbers, just the image.
JR
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For this ad series we brought talent in and went through a few of the scenarios and tried profoto bi-tubes split to different packs and
at the end of the day, went with acutes for fill and photogenic monoblocks for the keys and side lights, as it gave me just the right amount of freeze with certain blur on stuff that should blur.
[attachment=16862:sharp.jpg]
JR
Hi...
Did you push the button at the right time with luck or skill, or did you use a beam-trigger?
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from the phase one website: 'The 645DF camera is the only 645 medium format camera which supports both focal plane and leaf shutters, expanding photographers...’
does that mean we can't use the new lenses on the older models?? ( in my case a mamiya af III that is'nt even one year old. )
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Mamiya wird die bereits vor ein paar Tagen als Phase One 645D angekündigte Mittelformatkamera ab Ende Oktober 2009 auch als Mamiya 645DF ausliefern, das Zentralverschlussobjektiv 2,8/80 mm soll Schneider-Kreuznach-zertifiziert ab Mitte November erhältlich sein
http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Mamiya-Mi...matkamera-645DF (http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Mamiya-Mittelformatkamera-645DF)
robot translation:
Mamiya will deliver the as Phase One announced 645D medium format camera at the end of October 2009 as a Mamiya 645DF. The leaf shutter lens 2,8 / 80 mm, Schneider-Kreuznach certified, will be available about mid-November.
what is a "Schneider-Kreuznach certified lens"?
it might not be the same as a Schneider-Kreuznach lens...
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what is a "Schneider-Kreuznach certified lens"?
it might not be the same as a Schneider-Kreuznach lens...
designed by Schneider, assembled by Mamiya.
"certified" certainly includes quality control by Schneider as well... IMO
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designed by Schneider..IMO
exactly that is not the text.
that was the reason for my post above.
anyway, we will know more when we see the lens.
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exactly that is not the text.
that was the reason for my post above.
anyway, we will know more when we see the lens.
Doesn't really matter does it ? As long as the end result is good, it will work. Mamiya can assemble brilliant glass just look at the 150D for example. Don't think Schneider could do any better.
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exactly that is not the text.
that was the reason for my post above.
anyway, we will know more when we see the lens.
has been stated in one of the press releases you'll find on the Phase website
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Hi guys!
I got my hands on a 645DF today and had about 30 mins to play with it.
First impression, AF is alot faster than the AFDIII model i noticed it right away. The shutter button is alot smoother more like a dslr, i like it alot. And the shutterlag is impressive, alot faster then previous model. The grips is also changed a bit which is an improvement.
Didn't test image quality on the 80mm lens. The 110mm which i'm interested in will be available in january and is said to be extremly sharp
The grip will be available in april and have some cool functions. My rep gave me some clues that there will be a possibility with more functions on the grip which sounds great
I've already ordered my upgrade and will probably get the 110mm to but that will expensive probably same price as the 150mm 2.8D i think
1/1600 flash sync on the LS lenses will only be available on p40+ and p65+ for the other backs only 1/800.
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I am quite surprised that no 180 2.8 was announced - I love that one on my Rollei. Add the 1.4 longar and eventually the 300 4.0 and the telephoto part is covered
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I agree that art is not about numbers most of the times. But for some kind of art number is the key.
Asume I want to do a splash shot of a athlete under direct sunlight and use flash to darken the sun, I want the splashes to be sharp, then the full power flash duration would be important. (or simply I neet more power to do a freeze shot, then the full power flash duration would be important too)
I did this with a kind of lamp which worth less than $400, tack sharp splashes. I didn't rent any luxury equipments only because I know the numbers(guess what did I use?).
Out of curiosity: My guess would be something like a Nikon SB800. Pretty powerful and fast and under USD400.
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Bingo!:) I even use 3 sb800s(with umbrella) for fashion editorials. Attached pics were shot last month. I really love these powerful little things.
Out of curiosity: My guess would be something like a Nikon SB800. Pretty powerful and fast and under USD400.
oh.. I'm so off the topic...sorry!
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Bingo!:) I even use 3 sb800s(with umbrella) for fashion editorials. Attached pics were shot last month. I really love these powerful little things.
oh.. I'm so off the topic...sorry!
I have 4 Metz's for this type of work... they are compact and quick to set up ...giving studio quality pictures anywhere.
I think my Elinchrome 1500's have a short duration at low power.
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Bingo!:) I even use 3 sb800s(with umbrella) for fashion editorials.
I use five 580EX II and find them very useful.
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Looks like the new lenses will work on the afd III but with some limitations according ty my dealer, not sure what limitations yet though.
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Mamiya Sekor 2.8/80mm D/LeafShutter, photokina 2oo8
[attachment=17162:Sekor_2_8_80_ZVS.jpg]
"PhaseOne lenses" , " Schneider certified" 2oo9
[attachment=17161:sk_phase...bjektive.jpg]
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Mamiya Sekor 2.8/80mm D/LeafShutter, photokina 2oo8
[attachment=17162:Sekor_2_8_80_ZVS.jpg]
"PhaseOne lenses" , " Schneider certified" 2oo9
[attachment=17161:sk_phase...bjektive.jpg]
These lenses look yellow or green, and this would make them like the Mamiya lenses I hated on my Mamiya C330 in the 1970s.
In the days of transparencies good lenses that produce nice colour (e.g. Hasselblad) look purple on overcast days as they reject the blue cast. With digital raw you can apply the filter in the computer.
It was still possible to use Mamiya for colour transparency work if you used a red-biased film like Agfa CT18 and a pale pink filter (15 Mired) in overcast weather. I remember a pro using an RB67 and pro Kodak Ektachrome, and a blue batch correction filter and getting an awful result. I sent in my pictures, but they arrived too late to go in the brochure.
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These lenses look yellow or green, and this would make them like the Mamiya lenses I hated on my Mamiya C330 in the 1970s.
In the days of transparencies good lenses that produce nice colour (e.g. Hasselblad) look purple on overcast days as they reject the blue cast. With digital raw you can apply the filter in the computer.
It was still possible to use Mamiya for colour transparency work if you used a red-biased film like Agfa CT18 and a pale pink filter (15 Mired) in overcast weather. I remember a pro using an RB67 and pro Kodak Ektachrome, and a blue batch correction filter and getting an awful result. I sent in my pictures, but they arrived too late to go in the brochure.
HC50mm (http://tinyurl.com/yzjh2sj)
CFi 50mm (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/162339-REG/Hasselblad_30_20047_50mm_f_4_CFI_Distagon.html)
Tele Xenar 180mm (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/43886-USA/Rollei_87606_180mm_f_2_8_Tele_Xenar_PQ.html)
APO-Sironar 180mm (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/177796-USA/Rodenstock_150134_180mm_f_5_6_Digital_APO.html)
And last, Macro Digitar 120mm (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/400333-REG/Schneider_03_017964_120mm_f_5_6_M_Macro.html)
...must be all producing the same awful yellow colour...
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I smell a recall, esp on the inverted Rodenstocks (someone at Linos must feel pretty dumb about now)
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the Mamiya645DF is still not mentioned on the mamiya germany site, that was not updated since 2oo8.
the swiss are faster:
www.graphicart.ch published data of that camera, that will also be sold with a PhaseOne label.
http://www.graphicart.ch/bilder/5_Mittelfo...5DF_eng_fin.pdf (http://www.graphicart.ch/bilder/5_Mittelformat/645DF_eng_fin.pdf)
it might be worth to notice, that the leaf shutter LS lenses are not called "Schneider-Kreuznach", but Sekor like all other mamiya lenses.
the 3 lenses are also not mentioned on http://www.schneiderkreuznach.com/foto/foto.htm (http://www.schneiderkreuznach.com/foto/foto.htm)
neither Mamiya nor Schneider seem to mention any cooperation.
only PhaseOne stated in a press release, the lenses are "certified", not "made by" Schneider.
The release of the 645DF also heralds the launch of the new Sekor LS series of 80mm, 55mm and 110mm lenses.
The Sekor LS lens series is designed for use with the 645DF and each lens incorporates a lens shutter. Full speed
synchronization up to 1/800 sec. at the X contact is enabled via the lens shutter which allows greater flexibility for
day-light synchronization, etc. Since the shutter charges automatically by pressing the shutter button, the lenses can be
used in the same way as existing 645AF lenses.
The photographer can program the camera to shoot using the focal plane shutter or lens shutter simply by setting the
preferred mode in custom functions.
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it might be worth to notice, that the leaf shutter LS lenses are not called "Schneider-Kreuznach", but Sekor like all other mamiya lenses.
the 3 lenses are also not mentioned on http://www.schneiderkreuznach.com/foto/foto.htm (http://www.schneiderkreuznach.com/foto/foto.htm)
neither Mamiya nor Schneider seem to mention any cooperation.
only PhaseOne stated in a press release, the lenses are "certified", not "made by" Schneider.
Interesting. But the fact that the lenses are not mentioned on the Schneider Kreuznach website does not mean much. E.g. the Schneider lenses for Rollei have also not been appearing on their site.
On the issue of "Schneider Kreuznach" lenses with Mamiya mount for PhaseOne and Mamiya cameras I really wonder what exactly the real contribution of Schneider Kreuznach is. The manufacturing and final assembly, a crucial important element for any optical system, is certainly not done in Kreuznach, Germany... It seems more PR-branding not unlike the "Zeiss" for Sony and "Leica" for Panasonic, I am afraid.
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I'm both excited and troubled by this news. Excited because these lenses are bound to be fantastic if they are anything like what I've used with my Rollei. But troubled because of the path that resulted in this union. I like the phase backs and the schneider lenses... I'm just bummed that these two couldn't have been combined with a more advanced camera. I may be wrong but my impression is that a 10 year old Rollei 6008 AF is still more advanced and better featured than the latest and greatest phamiya body. I also had hopped to see the 6x6 format option...
+2
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My impression is the same.. If there were some 3rd party adapters for newer P1 backs, I'd gladly switch back to Rollei. Even after using RZ67 Pro IID (from time to time I miss the shutter speed)
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My impression is the same.. If there were some 3rd party adapters for newer P1 backs, I'd gladly switch back to Rollei. Even after using RZ67 Pro IID (from time to time I miss the shutter speed)
It is possible to order PhaseOne backs in a mount for Rolleiflex 6008 AF (not Hy6) through the dealer.
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I thought the latest supported back is phase one p20 (db20p)
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I thought the latest supported back is phase one p20 (db20p)
The Rollei DB20p was an OEM'd PhaseOne P20, specifically made for Rollei in a 6008 AF mount. But the later PhaseOne backs can be ordered with a Rollei 6008 AF mount through the dealer, so I was informed by Franke & Heidecke and PhaseOne. Some information is also on my web pages.
Good luck.
Pascal
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Well, it's too late now as I already made my investment and my next step will be P65. I definitely can live with RZ, although from time to time some 6008 features like higher shutter speed of PQS lenses would be nice. Anyway, thanks for the information.
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It is possible to order PhaseOne backs in a mount for Rolleiflex 6008 AF (not Hy6) through the dealer.
I've checked into this a number of times recently and the best I can say to anyone interested would be that currently this is not an option, and the future remains murky.
Steve Hendrix
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I've checked into this a number of times recently and the best I can say to anyone interested would be that currently this is not an option, and the future remains murky.
Steve Hendrix
Hi Steve, I guess you are referring to Hy6 compatibility for PhaseOne backs, which is currently non-existing, rather than to the 6008 AF compatibility, which has been acknowledged by PhaseOne?
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Hi Steve, I guess you are referring to Hy6 compatibility for PhaseOne backs, which is currently non-existing, rather than to the 6008 AF compatibility, which has been acknowledged by PhaseOne?
Unfortunately I was referring to the Rollei compatability. In the USA at least, there is currently no option for Rollei mount with Phase One. Previously you could order a Rollei mount for an additional $3,000. Perhaps at some point this will be re-visited, but I think it will depend largely on the future of Rollei.
Steve Hendrix
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Steve,
Rollei Metric which was unaffected by the F&H insolvency still offers this conversion. In fact they can do a conversion with a used back even so long as its in the Hasselblad V mount. While this may not be offered through your channels, its still available. People that want a phase back and real schneider lenses right now and not just promised for the future can have that if they like - though apparently not through CI.
Eric
I've checked into this a number of times recently and the best I can say to anyone interested would be that currently this is not an option, and the future remains murky.
Steve Hendrix
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Steve,
Rollei Metric which was unaffected by the F&H insolvency still offers this conversion. In fact they can do a conversion with a used back even so long as its in the Hasselblad V mount. While this may not be offered through your channels, its still available. People that want a phase back and real schneider lenses right now and not just promised for the future can have that if they like - though apparently not through CI.
Eric
Eric
There is no USA-compatible channel that CI would not have access to.
My query was through Phase One USA distribution. Perhaps, as you've indicated, a different channel would be able to accomplish this. Worth looking into.
Steve Hendrix
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Eric
There is no USA-compatible channel that CI would not have access to.
My query was through Phase One USA distribution. Perhaps, as you've indicated, a different channel would be able to accomplish this. Worth looking into.
Steve Hendrix
I've been told by other US based Phase dealers that they can still facilitate this conversion as recently as November so who knows maybe they are going abroad? In any case I've e-mailed with Rollei Metric directly only just a little while ago so I know this should still possible for whomever might be interested.
Back to the topic - can you tell us about the new scheider lenses for the phase/mamiya camera. Which ones are available now and who designed them and who is making them? The sample images I saw on the GetDPI forum taken with the 80mm did not impress me, but that might have been just those shots or the conversion to jpeg, but I haven't seen any others posted. When I saw those sample images, I thought to myself that I've got an older Mamiya 80mm f/1.9 that I think could be more interesting lens than the new offering actually. And Actually if you want to get down to it from what I've seen, the Schneider Xenotar in both f/2.8 and f/2.0 flavors for Rollei mount are very impressive both in sharpness, lack of distortion and also in the OOF rendering plus it covers 6x6.
Eric
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Okay but I've been told by other US based Phase dealers that they can still facilitate this conversion as recently as November. Not saying you're wrong but this is what I've been told by other dealers. In any case I've e-mailed with Rollei Metric directly only just a little while ago.
Eric
I'll look into it Eric.
Steve Hendrix
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Denis,
Take this in a positive way, but this is the $64,000 question, or should I say the $52,000 question;
Are you going to purchase a P65+, new Phase Body and three new lenses?
I ask this because these forums always light up with the _______ is the best in the world, or the best skin tones, or the whatever, but 95% of those people posting are using 22mpx backs hooked to older used cameras and many of those people are shooting their real pressured projects with a 5d2 or a D3x or some kind of dslr.
Want, need and buy seem to be in three seperate catagories.
Had the same people that raved about the HY6 went out that day and bought one, they would probably still be in business.
You and your partner do a lot of work in post, in fact I think that is part of your style, so at the end of the day, shooting a 22, 31, 39, or 60mpx back do you really see any difference after you've gone through 12 stages of post work and client corrections and if you do, are you going to write that $52,000 check?
Thx.
BC
I can agree with much of this post. I follow and keep a close ear to things in the pipeline to see when some new technology makes some serious break through(like in DSLR more recently), and honestly, with some modifications to the existing tech, its all resolution and convenience mods for MF. A new camera body/system is sure not going to get me to buy an entire system.
I see it this way...
The S2 does look nice, and I think it comes close to playing both hats well, but there is always something missed when you try and make a hybrid system....
For what the S2 would be used for PRIMARLY (as I know there are a number of users who need it), you can do the DSLR route, but for the specific studio shooter, you DO need a MF larger sensor, but NOT the stiff body.
What you are left with are the FEW that can actually benefit from such a hybrid, and the few that can chase technology at the bleeding edge in search of the silver bullet picture machine. These last 2 come at a price, AND a new lens system.
With DSLR's getting better (sorry, I know this has been beat to a pulp), and when one of these manufacturers find the balls/tech-knowhow to make a DSLR with REMOVABLE AA filter, there will be some very serious shake-ups for a NUMBER of markets needing MF. No NOTall, but a significant amount. And that first manufacturer will get my $ for their system before I upgrade my MFDB.
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... It seems more PR-branding not unlike the "Zeiss" for Sony and "Leica" for Panasonic, I am afraid.
i did not see any "Schneider-Kreuznach" branded lenses for the Mamiya 645 DF.
now there seem to be "Mamiya Sekor" leaf shutter lenses of 55, 80 and 110 mm.
it might take a while before we see a Xenotar or a Super-Angulon for Phamiya
the question is: what is a PhaseOne claimed Mamiya lens "certified" by Schneider?
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Good day folks. I've been reading this forum for many months now and found it to be extremely interesting, informative and entertaining, so I decided to join it. This is my first post.
I've been told by other US based Phase dealers that they can still facilitate this conversion as recently as November so who knows maybe they are going abroad? In any case I've e-mailed with Rollei Metric directly only just a little while ago so I know this should still possible for whomever might be interested.
Eric
I heard from one of the main Phase dealers in the uk last week that the only way a P45+ can be adapted to a Rollei 6008 is to have them "fitted together" and that, once done, they can only be used together and only in portrait mode. Surely this isn't true? I won't mention the dealer name for their sake in case they are embarrassingly wrong! I hope they are, I'd love one of the P+ backs for my rollei. Does anyone know for sure about this? Thanks,
Philip
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Good day folks. I've been reading this forum for many months now and found it to be extremely interesting, informative and entertaining, so I decided to join it. This is my first post.
I heard from one of the main Phase dealers in the uk last week that the only way a P45+ can be adapted to a Rollei 6008 is to have them "fitted together" and that, once done, they can only be used together and only in portrait mode. Surely this isn't true? I won't mention the dealer name for their sake in case they are embarrassingly wrong! I hope they are, I'd love one of the P+ backs for my rollei. Does anyone know for sure about this? Thanks,
Philip
At the risk of being wrong (!) my understanding is as follows:
- the dp20 mount was made by Rollei. Backs were supplied to them by Phase (P20), and the mount remachined to fit into a special Rollei back config that houses the digital back, and just goes on the 6008. It fits all the 6003/8 cameras, and is removable. Works fine on 6008AF, and the 6008 II (some). No EXIF data, just firing communication.
- the later Phase backs (as noted above by Eric) can be sent to Rollei Metric who will repeat this same service on a back (new or used) for a fee. The digital back is permanently mounted into the camera back. They told me some time ago that the camera back could either be fixed to the body (and thus the alignment would be that much better), or removable in case you wanted to use a film back, for example. Again, this would be a Rollei only back, and would only go on Rollei mounts. Not the same as Hy6.
In short, you sacrifice the back's mount to go into a Rollei back system. The back is not rotatable, thus the appeal of the square (hooray) P20.
FWIW, I'm enjoying the dp20 on the Rollei even with its limited mb. Love those big pixels. Some point - maybe an upgraded back if Rollei Metric will still do this service.
Hope this helps.
Geoff
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Good day folks. I've been reading this forum for many months now and found it to be extremely interesting, informative and entertaining, so I decided to join it. This is my first post.
I heard from one of the main Phase dealers in the uk last week that the only way a P45+ can be adapted to a Rollei 6008 is to have them "fitted together" and that, once done, they can only be used together and only in portrait mode. Surely this isn't true? I won't mention the dealer name for their sake in case they are embarrassingly wrong! I hope they are, I'd love one of the P+ backs for my rollei. Does anyone know for sure about this? Thanks,
Philip
Philip,
Just to add to what Geoffrey wrote, if you need a back that will rotate you can purchase one of the older ixpress backs or CF series backs. Its not something you can do quickly like on the Hy6 or AFi as you have to unscrew 4 screws rotate and put them back in, but it can be done in a few minutes. I also believe the same is true for the Sinar backs but don't have any first hand knowledge though there are a few people on this forum with Sinar backs mated to Rollei's so hopefully they will chime in. Another point to consider is that as far as I know, the phase backs can be put into the Rollei mount but will work smoothly only with the 6008AF bodies. I think it will technically work on any of the Rollei 6000 series cameras that have the removable film gate (the metal frame with the rollers) but the back will go to sleep after a few minutes of inactivity and you will get two shot errors on the first shot after waking up the back.
Eric
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At the risk of being wrong (!) my understanding is as follows:
- the dp20 mount was made by Rollei. Backs were supplied to them by Phase (P20), and the mount remachined to fit into a special Rollei back config that houses the digital back, and just goes on the 6008. It fits all the 6003/8 cameras, and is removable. Works fine on 6008AF, and the 6008 II (some). No EXIF data, just firing communication.
- the later Phase backs (as noted above by Eric) can be sent to Rollei Metric who will repeat this same service on a back (new or used) for a fee. The digital back is permanently mounted into the camera back. They told me some time ago that the camera back could either be fixed to the body (and thus the alignment would be that much better), or removable in case you wanted to use a film back, for example. Again, this would be a Rollei only back, and would only go on Rollei mounts. Not the same as Hy6.
In short, you sacrifice the back's mount to go into a Rollei back system. The back is not rotatable, thus the appeal of the square (hooray) P20.
FWIW, I'm enjoying the dp20 on the Rollei even with its limited mb. Love those big pixels. Some point - maybe an upgraded back if Rollei Metric will still do this service.
Hope this helps.
Geoff
Philip,
Just to add to what Geoffrey wrote, if you need a back that will rotate you can purchase one of the older ixpress backs or CF series backs. Its not something you can do quickly like on the Hy6 or AFi as you have to unscrew 4 screws rotate and put them back in, but it can be done in a few minutes. I also believe the same is true for the Sinar backs but don't have any first hand knowledge though there are a few people on this forum with Sinar backs mated to Rollei's so hopefully they will chime in. Another point to consider is that as far as I know, the phase backs can be put into the Rollei mount but will work smoothly only with the 6008AF bodies. I think it will technically work on any of the Rollei 6000 series cameras that have the removable film gate (the metal frame with the rollers) but the back will go to sleep after a few minutes of inactivity and you will get two shot errors on the first shot after waking up the back.
Eric
Thanks for your reply Geoff and Eric. Seems the P1 dealer wasn't wrong at all, let alone embarrassingly so!
Some point - maybe an upgraded back if Rollei Metric will still do this service.
Geoff
But as the later P1 backs' sensors are not square you'd be left with the back in portrait mode (so I'm told) and would have to turn the entire camera on it's side to get landscape format - surely not a realistic option (or am I missing something here?)
Eric, I already use a 6008AF with a sinar emotion22, 5 years old but with the latest firmware, and I love it. It provides a gorgeous combination with the Rollei/zeiss/schneider lenses. But, I need much longer exposures and higher ISOs sometimes and the P45+ seems to be the one.
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Philip,
I'm pretty sure you can have any of the phase backs mounted in landscape mode...you just can't change it. very few phase dealers have info on this it seems, and you need to do the leg work. Try contacting either Rollei metric or dhw first then your dealer with the info or just go direct as phase charges for this anyhow. It's been a little while now but my understanding was that Rollei metric could supply the backs as well but your dealer may be able to do so with more options or other incentive. Overall stick with it and you'll find a way - the dealers would rather sell something with more clear process for support such as the phamiya camera and lenses this original thread was about even if there are IQ or other compelling advantages to the Rollei/schneider combo.
Eric
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Thanks for your reply Geoff and Eric. Seems the P1 dealer wasn't wrong at all, let alone embarrassingly so!
But as the later P1 backs' sensors are not square you'd be left with the back in portrait mode (so I'm told) and would have to turn the entire camera on it's side to get landscape format - surely not a realistic option (or am I missing something here?)
Eric, I already use a 6008AF with a sinar emotion22, 5 years old but with the latest firmware, and I love it. It provides a gorgeous combination with the Rollei/zeiss/schneider lenses. But, I need much longer exposures and higher ISOs sometimes and the P45+ seems to be the one.
Have you had a look at AFi II camera and back either 7 or 10 internally rotating sensor, flip up screen and it will take your 6008 lenses.