Luminous Landscape Forum
The Art of Photography => The Coffee Corner => Topic started by: Rob C on August 07, 2009, 06:29:16 am
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Considering the lady has helped nurse and project the careers of so many luminaries of both stage, screen and the world at large, would it be asking too much to suggest that some of the recipients of her art might consider putting their hands into their silken purses and returning the favours?
The collective price of a couple of nights in their favourite hotel suites would soon help her to a new beginning as a wiser and happier woman. If you know anyone in that elevated position of being able to help, why not direct them ever so subtly to this slot.
As some of her friends are wont to say: you´re worth it. Now an opportunity to prove they are too.
Rob C
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Let me get this straight: you're seriously suggesting charity for someone who has made at least an order of a magnitude more than the average wage in one of the wealthiest nations in the world for the past 20 years at least, with future potential income at least as much as in the past, and with fortune in the tens of millions of dollars?
Even taking her considerable debt into consideration, I'll cordially pass.
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Not in this lifetime...
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I bet a number of people would do so if she made an organized effort. People donate to all kinds of things.
But I predict she knows that she can work her way out so will not turn that route.
I'm reminded of when Willie Nelson ran into trouble with the IRS and was “forced” to produce a double album to help pay his obligations. Then he sued his accounting company for putting his assets in tax shelters which the IRS later disallowed. The accountants settled. Three years later Mr. Nelson had paid off about 16.7m in debt.
Of course, should it come to pass, Ms Liebovitz, could file for bankruptcy and escape most of the debt and some or most of the contractual obligations that go with it. Failing gifts, it amounts to nearly the ultimate help Anne fund…
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Let me get this straight: you're seriously suggesting charity for someone who has made at least an order of a magnitude more than the average wage in one of the wealthiest nations in the world for the past 20 years at least, with future potential income at least as much as in the past, and with fortune in the tens of millions of dollars?
Even taking her considerable debt into consideration, I'll cordially pass.
Feppe
Yep, quite serious. You´re in the finance business, so you must know that there are zillions of multi-millionaires out there - even as a poor snapper I know some - and I am appealing to their sense of fair play, returning a little something for all they have gained from her talent.
Obviously too much to ask from the likes of some of us, but hardly from the very riche unless just too nouveaux!
It´s all about perspective and relativity.
Rob C
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Feppe
Yep, quite serious. You´re in the finance business, so you must know that there are zillions of multi-millionaires out there - even as a poor snapper I know some - and I am appealing to their sense of fair play, returning a little something for all they have gained from her talent.
Obviously too much to ask from the likes of some of us, but hardly from the very riche unless just too nouveaux!
It´s all about perspective and relativity.
Rob C
I have some (not much, but some) sympathy for her getting on a ride with bad, incompetent or unscrupulous money managers, or however she managed to get her finances in such a horrid state, but there are many more worthy causes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copenhagen_Consensus) for those millionaires to spend their charity dollars. That's my perspective and relativity.
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I have some (not much, but some) sympathy for her getting on a ride with bad, incompetent or unscrupulous money managers, or however she managed to get her finances in such a horrid state, but there are many more worthy causes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copenhagen_Consensus) for those millionaires to spend their charity dollars. That's my perspective and relativity.
Where does charity come into this?
The objective, I would have thought, would be to put the lady back on her feet without the nerve-wracking attentions of commercial loan-mongers, the worry of losing her life´s work (copyright in her catalogue) and the stress-related damage that all those factors can cause a person. The Fund, I would imagine, could be set up in many different ways to the tax advantage of both the knights in white armour as well as the photographer herself.
Breathing space, a clear mind and continuing work might well enable the repayment of any aid over a realistic time span that no commercial lender would countenance without crippling rates of interest, if at all.
Bankruptcy? Why not offer heart attacks too? Or cancer; anything anyone likes.
We had an interesting example on the news the other day: a loan shark lent a woman (England) five hundred pounds and collected eighty-eight thousand.
Banks? Best advice I ever had about them came from a manager friend of my father-in-law: Rob, he told me, we lend you an umbrella when the sun is shining and we want it back when it rains. That advice stuck.
Rob C
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If I had even a fraction of the net worth of someone like, say, Bill Gates, I'd bail her out in a heartbeat and set up a fund that would protect her from a similar situation for the rest of her life.
It´s all about perspective and relativity.
Exactly right.
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Michael Jackson was another person who seems to have had great difficulty in managing his personal finances. It can not always be attributed to the bad practices of accountants and 'hangers on'.
I don't think that Annie should be given special treatment in this respect. She's an artist and has probably been irresponsible with her finances. She should bear the responsibility of her irresponsible activities.
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If I had even a fraction of the net worth of someone like, say, Bill Gates, I'd bail her out in a heartbeat and set up a fund that would protect her from a similar situation for the rest of her life.
Exactly right.
Why in the world would you want to bail out a grown woman, with sane mind, and earning potential and "protect her" for a situation she put her self in. it doesnt matter if you had the money or were bill gates. Simply unbelievable!!!!!! i dont care how many pretty pictures or so called trends she or anyone has set, her, michael jackson, it doesnt matter who,, they had the joys of worshipship, and adoration of many thousands and now they are broke and you want to bail them out,, jesus h crist!!!
this bail out mentality is just completely out of control,, surely you are just high or mentally challenged to even suggest such a option.
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surely you are just high or mentally challenged to even suggest such a option.
Probably neither; just of a different mindset. It would be as absurd to suggest you are simply a miserable young/old asshole. Wouldn´t it?
Had you bothered to read the first post, you´d note that the suggestion was made as a form of repayment for the benefits that those same "stars" took/take from her work; that you or others outwith that world would be expected to contribute was never in consideration.
Have a brilliant day, and may all of your decisions be the right ones.
Rob C
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However much Annie L's work boosted the careers of celebrities, photographing them boosted hers. The photographer of celebrity became a celebrity in the process and was paid celebrity fees. The process was mutually beneficial.
There are those who would argue that Annie L, like more than a few photographers, has only reached where she is by standing on the shoulders of assistants and others, such as lab tekkies. Those people were paid for their contributions and knowledge just as Annie L was (whether too much or too little is also arguable).
The same would go for 'the hated' Paparazzi. It's a mutually beneficial relationship. I know a top pap and there's an awful lot of celebs who will swear at him and get their security to push him out the way one week, then the next when their clippings service can't find a pic of them in the mags, will call him about 'an exclusive' or he'll get an anonymous tip-off about where they'll be later. He asked one, quite big, celeb who is always pleasant to snappers whether she ever got fed up with it. She replied by saying 'No paparazzi at your door means you're not famous any more - and no fame means no fortune'.
I doubt rather strongly though whether anyone on here would suggest that there be a bail-out for any assistant, tekkie or pap who messed up their finances or even if they'd fallen into poverty due to circumstances beyond their control. Let them stack shelves.
IMVHO, if celebrities consider plunging their hands into their designer silken pockets and purses to help out anyone, it should be the ordinary folks whose money via cinema tickets, ad deals, etc. has bought and filled those pockets and purses. Some do, but in the main they do it on the quiet.
Baz
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Why in the world would you want to bail out a grown woman, with sane mind, and earning potential and "protect her" for a situation she put her self in. it doesnt matter if you had the money or were bill gates. Simply unbelievable!!!!!! i dont care how many pretty pictures or so called trends she or anyone has set, her, michael jackson, it doesnt matter who,, they had the joys of worshipship, and adoration of many thousands and now they are broke and you want to bail them out,, jesus h crist!!!
this bail out mentality is just completely out of control...
Your conclusion is right in there with the majority. Bailing out the rich is an interesting “mind set,” isn’t it? Many people are generous, even charitable, sometimes to a fault. Typically, generosity is aimed at those who are less fortunate. To give aid to those more fortunate is a rare thing. Some occasions when this happens are in the name of support of political or religious affiliations, or the desire to help bring about change, as when contributing to support a hospital, habitat for humanity, or other similar pursuits.
I have to agree that giving contributions to one who has achieved fame and considerable fortune is not typical, and probably would never be received favorably by the majority.
OTOH, if someone saw an opportunity to make some $$, they might be inclined to bail out Anne and take control of her holdings as an opportunity for a nice return. But if that doesn’t exist, no one other than perhaps adoring fans, would likely contribute to such a thing.
She already proved beyond the doubt of any reasonable adult that she can’t manage money. To offer a no-strings bail out to her would be tantamount to just throwing the money away. Supporting that concept is pretty far outside of responsible human nature.
Besides, other than financially, she’s not injured in any way. She can still work, drawing a considerable salary for her efforts. That is what she ought to do.
But people who are infatuated by her and/or her works may think along the lines of the OP.
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But people who are infatuated by her and/or her works may think along the lines of the OP.
Let the OP make one thing clear: he is not infatuated with the lady; he feels as he does because of a sense of fair-play which says that it wouldn´t go amiss were some of the '25 million bucks a pop' movie stars and musos who have benefitted from her work to dig a little into their wallets and help her settle a problem which can only get in the way of her work. Of course, you may have the ability to work well when worried about something else - I never did and I can´t speak for Ms L either, which I have not done.
That her problems have come to a head in this economic climate might have something to do with it, perhaps? Or is that too generous an idea for the 'majority' mindset that you appear to endorse? I never did give a fig for majorities - they generally but not always, to me, represent the lowest common denominator which every politician has wisely taken to heart and mind. As for the generalised idea of 'bailing out the rich' is concerned, I am thinking of one individual who, obviously, is far from rich at this precise moment, not any generic type.
Rest assured, you won´t be alone in refraining from generosity of spirit; the world is very low in that resource; check with your 'majority'.
Rob C
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Rest assured, you won´t be alone in refraining from generosity of spirit; the world is very low in that resource; check with your 'majority'.
Rob C
And so is this forum. Every time I come here threads seem to self-destruct.
Enough for me, I have better things to do - bye.
Baz
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...surely you are just high or mentally challenged to even suggest such a option.
In fact, neither.
I would be making a decision based on a number of aesthetic and societal considerations, among which are (ready for it? here it comes...) none that have anything whatsoever to do with exchange.
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And so is this forum. Every time I come here threads seem to self-destruct.
Enough for me, I have better things to do - bye.
Baz
There are certainly quite a few self-destructing threads on this site. However, this hasn't (yet) become one of them. thewanderer, whoever he might be, chose to post a semi-literate rant, but the remainder of the posts have expressed opposing views on a topic which has some merits worthy of debate.
FWIW, I wouldn't offer a penny to someone who has achieved such gross mismanagement of her own affairs and who remains, so far as I can tell, capable of resolving the situation, with due pain, herself. I'm prepared to accept, though, that others would take a different view.
Still, if you have better things to do, do them.
Jeremy
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Rob,
I understand where you're coming from, but it seems to me that instead of offering charity, the "luminaries" who've been assisted by Annie L in their rise to "luminance" might simply hire her at her usual inflated prices to add a few clicks on the celebrity jack to raise them to higher luminance and lift her out of penury.
I know there are those who worship Annie L because of her coverage of "luminaries" such as Lennon and Ono and her, well, close relationship with Susan Sontag, but I can't find in any of her work to which I have access anything that comes even close to the work of people like Ansel Adams, Garry Winogrand, Steve McCurry, Arnold Newman, or dozens of others I could name.
Those who live by the luminary shall...
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Rob,
I understand where you're coming from, but it seems to me that instead of offering charity, the "luminaries" who've been assisted by Annie L in their rise to "luminance" might simply hire her at her usual inflated prices to add a few clicks on the celebrity jack to raise them to higher luminance and lift her out of penury.
And that, Russ, seems a very acceptable way to accomplish a rescue!
Now, could we but get the luminous ones to read this thread...
Ciao
Rob C
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And that, Russ, seems a very acceptable way to accomplish a rescue!
Now, could we but get the luminous ones to read this thread...
Do you mean the illuminati (http://www.illuminati-news.com/)? I gather they control everything anyway.
Jeremy
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Do you mean the illuminati (http://www.illuminati-news.com/)? I gather they control everything anyway.
Jeremy
I´m trying desperately hard to refrain from politics - religious ones most of all!
Rob C
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Probably neither; just of a different mindset. It would be as absurd to suggest you are simply a miserable young/old asshole. Wouldn´t it?
Had you bothered to read the first post, you´d note that the suggestion was made as a form of repayment for the benefits that those same "stars" took/take from her work; that you or others outwith that world would be expected to contribute was never in consideration.
Have a brilliant day, and may all of your decisions be the right ones.
Rob C
Oh, i make my bad decisions, day in and day out. Am i an old ass hole, probably! and i wont apologize for it. Maybe i am sick of my income going to help study prostitutes in malaysia and tattoo removal in california so the thought of bailing out a old artist doesnt go over well, Look, I took beatings in the markets like everyone else, but you know what, I dont blame anyone but myself for it, nor do expect any support from anyone or would I even want anyone to suggest someone to help me cover my bad decisions. Thats just it, there is no accountabilty for bad decisions, just blame off on the accountant, or lawyer or whoever. You want to help things, why not just have a hoolywooder or new york elite send a couple a bucks to your nearest humane society so they can do some real good, build a shelter or some society like the kidney foundation or a cancer society that is getting killed by these recessionary times or something else useful and will benefit many others in a meaningful way other than bailing out a old artist who still has a means. It seems to me that one thing is a fact. She still has her famousness, her eyes, and probably her talent and some old pictures lying around she could sell off and get her own self out of her own hole or maybe just move to a less expensive neighborhood and dig her way out the old fashioned way,, WORK!!
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> Let the OP make one thing clear: he is not infatuated with the lady; he feels as he does because of a sense of fair-play which says that it wouldn´t go amiss were some of the '25 million bucks a pop' movie stars and musos who have benefitted from her work to dig a little into their wallets and help her settle a problem….
I don’t understand your sense of “fair-play.” Would you elaborate on that and how it fits to this circumstance?
> ….which can only get in the way of her work.
If she needs help with depression, there are a number of anti-depressant medicines available. They are not terribly expensive, even when including the cost of a visit to the doctor’s office. It is very important for those who suffer depression to move foreword and not create reasons to do nothing.
History has shown time after time that artists and other professionals do some of their best work when they are under pressure. Her skill is not at issue. The only losses includes some ultimately meaningless trophies and some self-esteem. I bet she will lose few to no customers as a result of this. Her plight amounts to publicity and that always sparks increased sales.
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Let me get this straight: you're seriously suggesting charity for someone who has made at least an order of a magnitude more than the average wage in one of the wealthiest nations in the world for the past 20 years at least, with future potential income at least as much as in the past, and with fortune in the tens of millions of dollars?
Even taking her considerable debt into consideration, I'll cordially pass.
Perhaps Rob's soft spot is reserved only for those who are too big to fail.
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[quote name='Justan' date='Aug 10 2009, 10:45 PM' post='303016']
> Let the OP make one thing clear: he is not infatuated with the lady; he feels as he does because of a sense of fair-play which says that it wouldn´t go amiss were some of the '25 million bucks a pop' movie stars and musos who have benefitted from her work to dig a little into their wallets and help her settle a problem….
I don’t understand your sense of “fair-play.” Would you elaborate on that and how it fits to this circumstance?
Read the sentence again: it carries its intrinsic explanation.
> ….which can only get in the way of her work.
If she needs help with depression, there are a number of anti-depressant medicines available. They are not terribly expensive, even when including the cost of a visit to the doctor’s office. It is very important for those who suffer depression to move foreword and not create reasons to do nothing.
And I thought facile was for the ignorant...
History has shown time after time that artists and other professionals do some of their best work when they are under pressure. Her skill is not at issue. The only losses includes some ultimately meaningless trophies and some self-esteem. I bet she will lose few to no customers as a result of this. Her plight amounts to publicity and that always sparks increased sales.
Trophies are only meaningless when you have none. Financial ruin a new form of publicity; like that - perhaps you could start up your own PR firm.
Justan, I have no wish to fall out with you but we clearly have no common ground and, in order to prevent the wrath of the Gods from descending onto the thread and shutting it down, I dedicate the last word to your greater glory.
Rob C
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Perhaps Rob's soft spot is reserved only for those who are too big to fail.
Well, in that case, why would this thread need to exist? Your logic must be divine; it is certainly beyond me.
Rob C
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Rob,
I'm sorry you feel that way. I've tried to hold conversations with you. Your replies consist primarily of evasion and insults. Your comments above are typical.
People lacking in common ground can learn much, if they are willing to try. This site exists for people to turn to each other to learn. The concept is called synergy. You can see that in nearly every thread. I asked you to elaborate on a point you were trying to make, but your reply was nothing but an insult.
Fwiw, just on the possibility that your comments about Ms L’s presumed obstacles to work are you projecting, you might want to look into treatment options for depression. For the record, that is not intended as a disparagement.
Thanks for your time.
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Perhaps being a "starving artist" would improve her work as well as help to lose the entourage.
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Even though I make a living in the studio. I still thank god that my shutter doesn't make the sound of a cash register, as this thread reminds me why I picked up a camera in the first place.
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Even though I make a living in the studio. I still thank god that my shutter doesn't make the sound of a cash register, as this thread reminds me why I picked up a camera in the first place.
Hi Peter
That´s strange; I did exactly the same thing and the ultimate silence of the cash register is what drove me to permanent location work. Didn´t hear the cash register there either, but the bank did, fortunately.
Rob C
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I do believe that AL was paid for the jobs she did for said celebrities. Paid extremely well. She owes them as much for the publicity as they 'owe' her for the jobs they paid in full. I'll leave my pity for those who can barely afford food and housing rather than have some celebrity bailed out to the extent of not having to sell some of her houses. I find it sick that people would want people bailed out of not having to sell houses they own as an investment (especially when it's their own fault) when there are so many who can barely keep a roof over their heads.
AL, sell the houses, pay the debt, learn from your mistakes. You will still have a comfortable lifestyle and security in your life without those houses. Many others don't have that luxury. Capitalism works both ways, I ain't going to shed a tear over your townhouses, heck they were an inheritance anyway weren't they, it's not even as if you paid for them is it?
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I do believe that AL was paid for the jobs she did for said celebrities. Paid extremely well. She owes them as much for the publicity as they 'owe' her for the jobs they paid in full. I'll leave my pity for those who can barely afford food and housing rather than have some celebrity bailed out to the extent of not having to sell some of her houses. I find it sick that people would want people bailed out of not having to sell houses they own as an investment (especially when it's their own fault) when there are so many who can barely keep a roof over their heads.
AL, sell the houses, pay the debt, learn from your mistakes. You will still have a comfortable lifestyle and security in your life without those houses. Many others don't have that luxury. Capitalism works both ways, I ain't going to shed a tear over your townhouses, heck they were an inheritance anyway weren't they, it's not even as if you paid for them is it?
pom
Disregarding the accuracy or otherwise about whether Ms L did or did not inherit, it is as beside the point as was your earlier remark about the plight of the world's impoverished.
This has nothing whatsoever to do with that or them; this is a one-off that was proposed as a solution to one individual problem. Nobody asked for your kindness nor for mine; we are both excluded as doners by dint of being relative nobodies in the grander scheme of things. The undenied and uneniable poverty in this world has ever been and will ever continue; there are simply too many of us to have it otherwise and too few of us have anything much to contribute to the world economy to ever change that. Hell, even those of us with years of education and employment experience behind us can, and often do, find ourselves on the industrial waste heap.
Do try and get this straight, once and for all: this is not, never was intended to be, a general appeal for charity from the likes of the ordinary citizen; it was a suggestion for the ultra rich to reach into their wealth and use some of it to bail out one of their own. A matter of perspective and relativity; not a shake-down for your pocket money.
Your sympathy for the world´s impoverished is a fine thing; honorable and shared by most of us here, I suspect. I repeat: this and they are not connected, and neither is the (possible) supply of money; no competition exists for the same wallets. I refer you back to the meerkat ads, if you get them in your locality. Thimple?
Rob C
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New York magazine article about AL:
How Could This Happen to Annie Leibovitz? (http://nymag.com/fashion/09/fall/58346/)
Ronny
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New York magazine article about AL:
How Could This Happen to Annie Leibovitz? (http://nymag.com/fashion/09/fall/58346/)
Ronny
Thanks, Ronny; might just shame some of the envious but happy purveyors of schadenfreude.
Rob C