Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: BernardLanguillier on July 31, 2009, 09:41:13 pm
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Dear all,
My new 9900 arrived 2 weeks ago, and after doing a few routine test prints on sheets of paper, I have just tried my first large pano print on 24 inch paper.
Starting with the positive, the colors are great and, although I am on OX10.5.7, I have experienced none of the profile issues others have been plagued with. The gammut is amazing, and the detail is great too.
Now on the negative...
- The Epson people I have been dealing with are totally clueless about this printer... the guy who came to install it knew less about it than me who had just browsed quickly through the English manual. He was totally unable to answer any question on color Mgt... I am working on this with Epson Japan. I will try to get support on the issue described below though the maintenance contract I have bought with the printer... but my clear feeling is that they will be unable to help me quickly...
- The printer does seem to do self cleaning checks before most prints - this in itself might not be a huge issue,
- I see pretty awful large frequency banding on the pano prints. The paper used is the best Epson photo paper, the 250 gr glossy paper at 250 US$ a 12 m roll. I have been using the following print settings that are pretty much the default ones + alpha:
- high speed
- best possible resolution (2880 X 1440)
- best possible detail
- the paper type was correctly set on the printer
The issue doesn't show up in the first 40cm of the print, and then appears progressively to reach these unacceptable levels near the end of the 130cm print.
I don't see any micro banding so I don't think that it is a problem with clogging.
Here are some images of the issues... (banding is parallel to print head movement)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3489/3776823972_3fe1ae26fd_o.jpg)
I am now testing other papers like Photorag Baryta and it seems that the problem is basically invisible on that paper.
Any idea on what is causing this problem and how it could be fixed would be most welcome.
Thank you in advance.
Regards,
Bernard
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Hi Bernard,
A few things:
Can you confirm Firmware version and Driver version?
Which software are you printing from?
Can you provide full and exact driver settings and the exact paper type (there are various Epson glossy papers, so it's worth being precise).
Are you using a 9900 or the local Japanese variant (asking really because it may affect Firmware and driver versions that you have).
When you say best possible detail, do you mean you have ticked "Finest Detail" in the driver? If so, what is the resolution that you're sending to the printer (this shouldn't have anything to do with the banding you're seeing, but I'm curious all the same).
The fact that it gets worse as the print gets longer suggest two main possibly issues:
1. the 1m adjustment is out and needs to be redone
2. the paper/driver/application settings are not correctly matched and so it's not feeding the paper exactly right (it also affects automatic tension adjustments in the new roll feeder, for example)
I suppose it could also be an ink starvation issue, but that would seem very odd on a new printer. If you create a long image with strips of C M Y and K do you notice the banding only in one or some of the strips, or all of them? Under a loupe, can you identify specific colour channels that may be an issue or is it across all channels (this will help to determine if it is a feed or an ink delivery issue).
I'll be away the next couple of days, but will try to log in if I have a chance to check on your issue - hope it all gets sorted quickly!
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- I see pretty awful large frequency banding on the pano prints. The paper used is the best Epson photo paper, the 250 gr glossy paper at 250 US$ a 12 m roll. I have been using the following print settings that are pretty much the default ones + alpha:
- high speed
- best possible resolution (2880 X 1440)
- best possible detail
- the paper type was correctly set on the printer
The issue doesn't show up in the first 40cm of the print, and then appears progressively to reach these unacceptable levels near the end of the 130cm print.
I don't see any micro banding so I don't think that it is a problem with clogging.
Here are some images of the issues... (banding is parallel to print head movement)
I am now testing other papers like Photorag Baryta and it seems that the problem is basically invisible on that paper.
Any idea on what is causing this problem and how it could be fixed would be most welcome.
Hi Bernard,
I had similar issue with double weight matte paper and certain colors - large areas of them. It also happened here only on this one of all paper types I use. I have tried many things and in the end I was able to get rid of it by setting wide platen gap. So that would be 1st thing I will try.
I think these were slight head strikes and I believe it was caused by paper curling after it was soaked too much with ink. It was also OK at the beginning of print, started after few cm of print though.
Hope it will help
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Hi Bernard,
I had similar issue with double weight matte paper and certain colors - large areas of them. It also happened here only on this one of all paper types I use. I have tried many things and in the end I was able to get rid of it by setting wide platen gap. So that would be 1st thing I will try.
I think these were slight head strikes and I believe it was caused by paper curling after it was soaked too much with ink. It was also OK at the beginning of print, started after few cm of print though.
Hope it will help
I agree it looks like head gap issue, can be avoided by gently pulling the paper forward as it prints out so the angle of the first 40 cm is maintained throughout the whole print (tedious i know but would clarify the issue)
edwin
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The pattern looks like it's from the pinch rollers since it runs the
direction of the running length of the paper. With long prints the
weight of the printed paper may be pulling the print down on the
platten. I get a similar issue with large canvas prints on the 9880
but not on paper. IMO a head strike would be running along the width
of the paper.
Paul Caldwell
I agree it looks like head gap issue, can be avoided by gently pulling the paper forward as it prints out so the angle of the first 40 cm is maintained throughout the whole print (tedious i know but would clarify the issue)
edwin
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The pattern looks like it's from the pinch rollers since it runs the
direction of the running length of the paper.
Paul Caldwell
The original message said: Banding is parallel to the head movement.
My bet is on ink starvation. A small leak in the air chamber membrane of a cart so the pressure isn't optimal and/or a bad air pressure sensor in the printer. Fast setting usually means bidirectional ink squirting, the movement will add to the ink loading in one direction but could be slightly less on the other direction. There are several solutions to compensate on that in inkjets, buffers in the head assembly plus dual channels, one for the right side and one for the left side but it might not be enough to compensate a lower ink feed pressure. If you use a slower printing speed that uses unidirectional (if available) and it does the job correctly then you can be more certain that it is ink starvation.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html (http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html)
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Sorry missed that.
Paul Caldwell
The original message said: Banding is parallel to the head movement.
My bet is on ink starvation. A small leak in the air chamber membrane of a cart so the pressure isn't optimal and/or a bad air pressure sensor in the printer. Fast setting usually means bidirectional ink squirting, the movement will add to the ink loading in one direction but could be slightly less on the other direction. There are several solutions to compensate on that in inkjets, buffers in the head assembly plus dual channels, one for the right side and one for the left side but it might not be enough to compensate a lower ink feed pressure. If you use a slower printing speed that uses unidirectional (if available) and it does the job correctly then you can be more certain that it is ink starvation.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html (http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html)
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Does this effect happen if you don't print on "high speed"
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Dear all,
Thanks a lot for your quick and detailed feedbacks, much appreciated!
I was partially out yesterday and could not yet complete all the tests I intended to do, but it would seem indeed that high speed mode is related to this issue. I managed to get one perfect - gorgeous I have to say - print on H Photorag Baryta that made my day. (those claiming that nothing can beat 8x10 have never seen prints from high res stitches ).
I will try to increase the plate gap and see if it solves the problem too.
As far as ink starvation goes, I am still running on the initial ink cartidges on all but the Grey channel, could these cartridges be more likely to induce ink starvation than the regular ones?
Thank you again.
Cheers,
Bernard
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You did all of the head alignments when you set up the printer using the roll of paper furnished?
I agree with Ernest, this looks like ink isn't getting out of the head. I've never seen a case of "ink starvation" on any Epson printer so I'll yield to his expertise on that subject. Of course one obvious cause of ink starvation is clogged nozzles, which leads to various degrees of banding. You have actually printed a manual nozzle test to verify visually all nozzles are firing?
I don't believe the 110ml cartridges would be more prone to problems. However one theory might be a defective cartridge not sealing correctly ... maybe this could cause the ink starvation issue mentioned.
Your LK cartridge is already exhausted? How much have you printed? While it runs out much faster than the others, you should have been able to print a substantial amount of paper unless the printer is cleaning constantly (which it shouldn't be doing).
When you say best possible detail, note that "highest detail" is not intended for photographic images but for vector graphics. This won't cause a visual artifact like your examples (or any obvious artifact for that matter ... prints will look great). Just thought I'd mention it ( I can't remember if this setting slowed the printer down or not when I ran my speed tests.)
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Dear all,
It seems that getting rid of fast speed together with a 2 step increase of plate gap solves the issues on all the papers I have tried.
Thanks again for your help.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Dear all,
It seems that getting rid of fast speed together with a 2 step increase of plate gap solves the issues on all the papers I have tried.
Thanks again for your help.
Cheers,
Bernard
Glad to hear this helped.
However ...
You shouldn't have to get rid of fast speed (if you mean Bi-D). It should print just fine ... in fact if you have done all of the head alignment routines you should have to look very closely to see any difference between bi-d and uni-d.
I also don't think you should have to mess with the platen gap using Epson's paper.
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I agree with Wayne. I think this points back to an issue with either a media mismatch in the driver or one of the adjustments (such as the 1m adjustment).
I'm presuming you haven't made any custom variations to paper settings and the like?
And, again, I'd recommend updating to the latest firmware if you haven't already.
If the issues on Epson paper with correct driver settings are apparent in bi-di (high speed) and with the platen at the normal position, then there's a problem that needs to be addressed by a service technician.
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The issue doesn't show up in the first 40cm of the print, and then appears progressively to reach these unacceptable levels near the end of the 130cm print.
You should measure the EXACT print length of the image and the print. If the print length is off it indicates a paper feed problem. If the print is longer than the image then the stepper motor is moving the paper too far (which is what I suspect from the indications). It doesn't show up on short prints but gets progressively worse the longer the print is. Paper feed should be adjustable (although I don't know if it's a easy user fix). Check the manual...
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You should measure the EXACT print length of the image and the print. If the print length is off it indicates a paper feed problem. If the print is longer than the image then the stepper motor is moving the paper too far (which is what I suspect from the indications). It doesn't show up on short prints but gets progressively worse the longer the print is. Paper feed should be adjustable (although I don't know if it's a easy user fix). Check the manual...
There's the old ruler test: Make a blank file in Photoshop 100 cm long x whatever, and on the opposite long edges, create a thin black line top to bottom. If the output is not 100cm, feed is off.
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You should measure the EXACT print length of the image and the print. If the print length is off it indicates a paper feed problem. If the print is longer than the image then the stepper motor is moving the paper too far (which is what I suspect from the indications). It doesn't show up on short prints but gets progressively worse the longer the print is. Paper feed should be adjustable (although I don't know if it's a easy user fix). Check the manual...
Thanks Jeff, interesting input.
Cheers,
Bernard
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The 1m adjustment is the one that needs to be done in relation to what Jeff is talking about. As the machine is brand new and under warranty, I'd expect Epson to arrange to have that done for you if it proves to be the issue (and I agree with Jeff and it's one of the probable causes I mentioned initially), but it only applies if you are using the correct paper/driver combination (even choosing 260 instead of 250 can cause an issue, for example).
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I agree with Wayne. I think this points back to an issue with either a media mismatch in the driver or one of the adjustments (such as the 1m adjustment).
I'm presuming you haven't made any custom variations to paper settings and the like?
And, again, I'd recommend updating to the latest firmware if you haven't already.
If the issues on Epson paper with correct driver settings are apparent in bi-di (high speed) and with the platen at the normal position, then there's a problem that needs to be addressed by a service technician.
Thanks for the advice. My firmware appears to be the latest available for the PX-H10000 marketed in Japan, same thing for the driver but both appear to be slightly older than the Japanese equivalent.
I have tripled checked the match between driver and paper and printers setting (Glossy is only available in 250gr in Japan, 260gr is semi gloss only) and things seem to be OK. I am also not aware of any adjustements I would have done in terms of customer paper (tried reseting all settings on printer once)...
As of now, the problem is reproducible 100% of the time with the default platen and both single and bi-directional... although it is more apparent with bi-directional.
With the platen 2 steps up and one directional print, there is zero problem, I am now trying platen 2 steps up and bi-directional.
From what you are saying, I should probably make a first usage of my on-site maintenance contract...
Thanks anyway for the kind help!
Cheers,
Bernard
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The 1m adjustment is the one that needs to be done in relation to what Jeff is talking about. As the machine is brand new and under warranty, I'd expect Epson to arrange to have that done for you if it proves to be the issue (and I agree with Jeff and it's one of the probable causes I mentioned initially), but it only applies if you are using the correct paper/driver combination (even choosing 260 instead of 250 can cause an issue, for example).
What I don't get here is why changing the platen gap would solve the issue if it were due to a paper feed speed problem?
Regards,
Bernard
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What I don't get here is why changing the platen gap would solve the issue if it were due to a paper feed speed problem?
Regards,
Bernard
I think you definitely need them to come out and have a look at the printer. If you can reproduce it using Epson media through the driver, then there's an issue. I doubt it's a hardware fault, just a settings adjustment.
As to why the platen gap change is apparently fixing it, I would say that the larger gap is causing a more spread out laydown of the ink, almost like an increased dot gain (but not really - just less accurate) and that could be hiding the problem (if you ran a really long print it may start up again).
Sounds like you have used quite a lot of media and ink to discover the issue, so you should mention that to them, too.
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What I don't get here is why changing the platen gap would solve the issue if it were due to a paper feed speed problem?
Regards,
Bernard
Platen gap could also compensate paper feeding for heavier substrates based on some Epson estimates.
Almost all wide format inkjets measure the paper feeding on the paper feeding axle, that method isn't 100% accurate as the paper weight differs, the friction differs per paper texture and paper softness, the roll can be wounded tight or less tight, paper rigidity influences the curl that has to be straightened and humidity can vary all the parameters mentioned first. So with known paper qualities compensations are added. A far nicer approach is measuring the actual paper speed with a sensor that checks the paper texture movement. The HP Z6100 has that but no other wide format that I know off.
Platen gap could also give a slight expansion of the droplet pattern, covering up the small mismatches between head strokes and paper feeding or similar flaws.
What I recall of the attached image (it doesn't appear anymore) didn't make me think it is a paper feeding issue. That usually translates to smaller bands/lines that are not covered with the right density. And I disagree with the opinion that that fault becomes progressively worse on longer lengths. If so then that is an indication of slip on the transport axle where the printed paper at the front wheighs in so to say. Your sample showed almost 1:1 banding so a bidirectional printing issue is more likely. That it starts at some point in the printrun is an indication that ink starvation is the main cause. That printing at a slower speed and/or unidirectional improves the print quality is another sign.
Either Epson is at the edge of the heads capacity or ink feeding capacities with your settings of speed and finest detail at that format or there's something wrong with your printer's ink feeding or head voltage. It could be a slightly lower ink pressure due to a leaking cart air chamber membrane that isn't reported by the air pressure sensor. Filling the head ink buffers continually but not achieving a real fill where the ink buffer sensors will block the valves again till the buffer(s) get lower again, valves opened and new ink flows to the buffer(s). Ink feeding pressure shouldn't influence the piezo head capacity, it is just used to bring enough ink from the carts to the buffers. Membranes on the ink buffers keep the ink there at atmospheric pressure. But buffers that do not get enough ink will influence the head capacity at some point, bidirectional movement and/or printing speed is the most demanding task. I also wonder whether fine detail shifts the head output to higher frequency + minimum droplet sizes instead of using an average bigger droplet in the other modes. On thin ice here as that is how the 10600 worked.
It could be solved as simple as inserting a new cart. But which one?
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/)
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Finest Detail only affects the amount of data accepted for input and not the output resolution. The rastered image will favour sharper lines to support text or other vector images, but the output resolution remains unchanged.
Overall, the variation in total ink usage between all the printing modes (excluding 360 or draft output modes) is very small and would not likely be the cause of this problem. The damper allows sufficient reservoir of ink to be held to guard against quite reasonable air bubbles without interuption to printing, so a minor starvation issue (such that it doesn't cause an error due to pressure failure) seems unlikely to consistently cause failure after a certain time/length.
Regarding the banding versus print length, the displayed sample is too small to determine that the banding is consistent or 1:1 as Bernard is printing over a considerable length with the panos.
Concerning the ink starvation issue, I also doubt this is the case as such a starvation would result in nozzles firing empty which would be detected by the AID as a blockage, but Bernard is not reporting that the printer is indicating any nozzle blocks or attempting to clean and, indeed, if the printer did do into an extensive cleaning cycle then the time taken would allow for the pump to "catch up" in filling the dampers which would result in the starvation being fixed (and therefore starvation banding being eliminated after the cleans). Significant empty fires could also increase head temperature sufficiently to cause an error.
I still believe that a lengthy printing of C M Y and K strips will help to determine the nature of the problem, as will printing without Finest Detail and also checking at different output resolutions. It will also help to determine if it is a single channel or all channels and if it is all channels, then starvation can't be the problem or you would simply have fading prints rather than banding. If it is just one channel, then there is a possibility that the particular channel is the issue but since the banding appears consistent across various colours of the print, that doesn't appear to be the case.
At this point, though, regardless of the cause, a service technician is required, imho.
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At this point, though, regardless of the cause, a service technician is required, imho.
Yes, let us wait for the service man verdict. I keep my bets till then.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html (http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html)
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Dear all,
An Epson technician spent 1.5 hour with the printer yesterday.
His theory is that the printer default gap got messed up during transportation, which resulted in the need to increase the plate gap to avoid the head hitting the paper. Accordingly, he performed a gap adjustement that seems to have solved the problem per the test we did.
Thank you all for your kind help.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I'm getting to this thread a little late and maybe I should have started a new one. I also have a 9900 and have experienced wide frequency banding. I also discovered that my profile targets that should be ten inches long were coming out almost 1/4 inch too short! And ink was being laid down in separating spaces between the color rows where it shouldn't have been. I tried a lot of stuff and then it dawned on me to slice off a piece from the roll and feed it through manually. All problems went away. I think the whole problem I was having and maybe the problem the original poster had here might be coming from the back tensioning feature of the 9900. I'm no master printer so it's possible I've missed something but I did struggle with these problems for a month and thought I had tried everything I could think of including going into maintenance mode and changing the back tensioning value to it's lowest setting of one.
It's true epson support knows little about this printer.
The media I was using that gave me the problems was canvas. Maybe the problem would show up with other media or maybe not. I don't know.
I'll be constructing an overhead rack above the 9900 using my 9600 spindle so as to bypass using the 9900's system with back tensioning if I can't figure this one out.
Paul
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These issues with the professional series of Epson printers are a bit of a worry. I got myself an Epson 7600 a few years ago, not only because I prefer large prints, but also because the costs of ink and paper are less with such machines (per unit area of paper, that is).
However, I've had troubles with the 7600 right from the beginning.
The first problem was apparently an incompatibility issue with Adobe Photoshop. I'd attempt to make a 24"x36" print and the printer would just stop at about the 30" or 32" mark, as though the print were finished. You can imagine how much ink and paper I would have wasted trying to sort that problem.
Since I'd had my eye on Qimage for a while, I decided to use Qimage instead of Photoshop for all printing. Problem solved. I later discovered that Adobe fixed the problem with an update, but too late. I prefer Qimage.
The next problem was what appeared to be a contamination of the yellow ink with light cyan. The yellows on a print would be definitely too green and the print would be ruined. Test patterns looked okay. No broken lines. I'd go through another cleaning routine just to be sure, then attempt another print. Same problem.
You can imagine how much ink and paper I've wasted with that problem. At one stage I was printing an inch-wide bar of solid yellow at the border of the first print of each printing session, so that the cyan contamination would clear itself before the print head reached the print proper.
For some reason that problem has now cleared itself and I haven't had a recurrence for a year or so. The printer now seems to have settled down and is working just fine.
I'm thinkng I would now like to upgrade to the 7900, but I'm too far out of the city area to get free visits from technicians. All these teething problems with the 7900 and 9900 are really putting me off. I'm attracted by the automatic switching from matte black to photo black, the wider color gamut of the inks, and the lower cost of the inks when bought in the larger cartridge sizes, but I'd like to be more confident that I'm not going to have the same amount of trouble that I've experienced with the 7600.
I'm thinking it would be better to wait a while till these teething problems are all sorted.
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I'm thinkng I would now like to upgrade to the 7900, but I'm too far out of the city area to get free visits from technicians. All these teething problems with the 7900 and 9900 are really putting me off. I'm attracted by the automatic switching from matte black to photo black, the wider color gamut of the inks, and the lower cost of the inks when bought in the larger cartridge sizes, but I'd like to be more confident that I'm not going to have the same amount of trouble that I've experienced with the 7600.
One more problem this morning, I am getting chronical "ink cartridge error" with a new 350 ml cartridge. Tried cleaning the contacts and it seems to reduce the frequency of the issue, but does not eliminate it totally.
Cheers,
Bernard
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One more problem this morning, I am getting chronical "ink cartridge error" with a new 350 ml cartridge. Tried cleaning the contacts and it seems to reduce the frequency of the issue, but does not eliminate it totally.
Cheers,
Bernard
I've read this can be caused by air bubbles at the cartridge nozzle. Light tapping of the cartridge may dislodge this and enable the the cartridge again. I have had 3 or 4 cartridge errors that were remedied by this. Whether they were actually caused by air bubbles I do not know ... but the gentle tapping of the cartridge against a table top seemed to cure the problem.
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I've read this can be caused by air bubbles at the cartridge nozzle. Light tapping of the cartridge may dislodge this and enable the the cartridge again. I have had 3 or 4 cartridge errors that were remedied by this. Whether they were actually caused by air bubbles I do not know ... but the gentle tapping of the cartridge against a table top seemed to cure the problem.
Best bet with these that I've found is to actually leave them laying on their side overnight.
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received my first error on a new 350ml cartridge newly installed .I was also told of the the tap method(rather vigorous on side opposite the chip.Worked like a charm.
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received my first error on a new 350ml cartridge newly installed .I was also told of the the tap method(rather vigorous on side opposite the chip.Worked like a charm.
Thank you gentlemen, tried shaking the catridge at the same time I cleaned the sensor... don't know which one helped.
Cheers,
Bernard