Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: schaubild on July 30, 2009, 02:20:39 am
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Sinar is on it's own. And without digital backs.
http://www.jenoptik.com/cps/rde/xchg/SID-2...l/4582_6824.htm (http://www.jenoptik.com/cps/rde/xchg/SID-26EE34DB-26D2E60E/jenoptik/hs.xsl/4582_6824.htm)
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A true vote of confidence this statement. It is a sustainably negative business so we cut it loose and let it 'survive' on its own. I guess this shows where Sinar is heading, if that is the case I hope they will be taken over and preferably not by Phase... I am thinking Dalsa multishot technology and some pretty neat camera system technologies...
It would be a true pity if Sinar would just disappear.
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Sinar will continue.
Best regards,
Thierry
It would be a true pity if Sinar would just disappear.
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Sinar will continue.
Best regards,
Thierry
With or without digital backs? The press release says "The business of SINAR AG will be continued outside Jenoptik." Is Sinar being sold? Management buyout?
Regards,
Kumar
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With or without digital backs? The press release says "The business of SINAR AG will be continued outside Jenoptik." Is Sinar being sold? Management buyout?
Regards,
Kumar
The Sinar M system tries to rope everyone in to use all Sinar kit - and this might have it's advantages, as I use kit from about 6 manufacturers, and if you have a system problem, it is always someone else's problem.
But you can use a P3 or P2 with a wide variety of backs and lenses.
It has been said before, but it would be nice if the MFD manufacturers stopped fighting themselves.
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Pity about Sinar. I have four Sinar P2 cameras, I hope Sinar continues their business in some form. There are only so many of these digital medium format cameras that one company can sell, and those photographers who need them already have them.
Nowadays it's all web, websites, Internet, low res. 90% of the calls for new jobs I get are mostly web related that I could easily shoot with a 5D. I don't see a new generation of photographers needing large or medium format in big numbers. This was bound to happen.
Edward
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Edward,
see my post above.
Best regards,
Thierry
... I hope Sinar continues their business in some form.
Edward
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That's what I read from the Jenoptik press release:
"SINAR AG will continue to provide in full warranty and after-sales services for mid format camera system and market professional analog and digital specialist camera solutions."
Best regards,
Thierry
... And without digital backs.
http://www.jenoptik.com/cps/rde/xchg/SID-2...l/4582_6824.htm (http://www.jenoptik.com/cps/rde/xchg/SID-26EE34DB-26D2E60E/jenoptik/hs.xsl/4582_6824.htm)
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Dear Kumar,
I believe that "SINAR AG will be continued outside Jenoptik" says it clearly, whatever the terms of this "outcoming" are. I guess that the Sinar company shall provide the information in due time, but don't expect anything before end of August or even September: it is holidays time.
Best regards,
Thierry
With or without digital backs? The press release says "The business of SINAR AG will be continued outside Jenoptik." Is Sinar being sold? Management buyout?
Regards,
Kumar
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I guess that the Sinar company shall provide the information in due time, but don't expect anything before end of August or even September: it is holidays time.
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When decisions like this are made, no one from the top management is going to holidays. Sinar can't be that stupid to leave a press release of this importance uncommented for one or two months.
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When decisions like this are made, no one from the top management is going to holidays. Sinar can't be that stupid to leave a press release of this importance uncommented for one or two months.
I think the problem might be that the potential purchasers will be on holiday, possibly for the whole of August.
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I think the problem might be that the potential purchasers will be on holiday, possibly for the whole of August.
"Mildred, I think the company that my great-grandfather started is going down the tubes, but more importantly, have you seen my ski poles...?
Gotta love the tiny differences between American and European culture.
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have you seen my ski poles...?
Very little snow left...more likely hiking, cycling or just baking on a beach somewhere:-)
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Nothing changes in the daily business.
When I said "holidays time" it was meant for the WHOLE European zone: no company would inform their dealers during this period of time. As an example, in Italy all businesses are completely closed, for the whole August.
Thierry
Thierry
Sinar can't be that stupid to leave a press release of this importance uncommented for one or two months.
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Very little snow left...more likely hiking, cycling or just baking on a beach somewhere:-)
hi Yair,
I have to "contradict" you: from my apartment window where I am sitting I can clearly see the snow on the top of the swiss mountains and by clear weather, in the far south.
Best,
Thierry
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Whatever is going to happen. The current owner doesn't have faith in it anymore and is letting go of it because it only racks up losses without sight on future profits. These are not my words but what the owner is stating in a public press release. It seems the people that need to cough up the money don't want to do so anymore. It makes losses and is now on its own sofar no other financing has been reported. Jenoptik is so keen on getting rid of Sinar it is willing to let it go in what is probably one of the worst periods in time to divest assets. If Jenoptik would see just a glimpse of recovery my guess is they wait, hold on to it and sell it later for a better price or here is a concept; have a subsidiary that delivers them a profit.
Again, a deafening silence from a company that appears to be in turmoil. There seems to be a trend of sand and heads which doesn't bode well most of the time.
As much as I hope you are right Thierry, the way it currently looks is not good.
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I wouldn't comment here, wouldn't I be sure of what I am saying (including the snow on the mountains!).
Sure enough, Jenoptik want(ed) to get rid of Sinar: shareholders are not often very patient (see also Kodak) and it was never Jenoptik's core business. Sure enough, the time is the worse ever.
But sure enough also, there are a "few" things that will probably change at Sinar, in their new business, IMO for the better.
Best regards,
Thierry
As much as I hope you are right Thierry, the way it currently looks is not good.
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Nothing changes in the daily business.
When I said "holidays time" it was meant for the WHOLE European zone: no company would inform their dealers during this period of time. As an example, in Italy all businesses are completely closed, for the whole August.
Thierry
Thierry
I have to contradict you there - Denmark and Sweden (Phase and Hasselblad) are officially back from holiday Monday August 3.
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I have to contradict you there - Denmark and Sweden (Phase and Hasselblad) are officially back from holiday Monday August 3.
and it wouldnt have been a bad idea as well if jenoptik waited with its annoucement to the moment when sinar finds the time to talk at the same how its going on.
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But sure enough also, there are a "few" things that will probably change at Sinar, in their new business, IMO for the better.
Thierry, it's nice that you share your opinion and I think a lot of people here trust you.
But all we know officially is that...
- F&H is closed
- Phase is not committed to produce the AFi
- Jenoptik withdraws from the MFDB market
- Sinar has to chance it seperate
I hope Sinar will stay in the market at least as a small, fine camera maker providing products for all plattforms as Linhof, Arca Swiss, Cambo, Horseman (...) do.
The arTec is possibly their dead pledge and I hope it sells well enough to keep the company. Still a very small market.
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Looking for some hope, Jenoptic talks of abandoning *medium format* and seems to confirm the death of the Hy6 camera system, but is there a continuing role for a company like Sinar with digital view camera systems, backs and/or bodies? Even then, in the digital back market, the combined Phase One/Leaf seems to have a big advantage over Sinar, which has not yet updated to the newest generation of sensors and is likely to be [changed from here] at a big disadvantage in selling backs to users of the Hasselblad and Mamiya/Phase SLR systems, hurting its overall sales volume and economies of scale.
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...is there a continuing role for a company like Sinar with digital view camera systems, backs and/or bodies? Even then, in the digital back market, the combined Phase One/Leaf seems to have a big advantage over Sinar, which has not yet updated to the newest generation of sensors and is likely to be [changed from here] at a big disadvantage in selling backs to users of the Hasselblad and Mamiya/Phase SLR systems, hurting its overall sales volume and economies of scale.
Sinar I regard as a manufacturer of mechanical focusing/movement systems to which you can attach various backs (including CCD, scan and film) and a wide variety of lenses. It would be nice to thing that they could survive without making/marketing/badge engineering digital backs.
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You are right, a small market, but so it was before digital, and Sinar with the arTec and with other well thought products as a platform has its chance like it had before.
Thierry
I hope Sinar will stay in the market at least as a small, fine camera maker providing products for all plattforms as Linhof, Arca Swiss, Cambo, Horseman (...) do.
The arTec is possibly their dead pledge and I hope it sells well enough to keep the company. Still a very small market.
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Sure enough, Jenoptik want(ed) to get rid of Sinar: shareholders are not often very patient (see also Kodak) and it was never Jenoptik's core business. Sure enough, the time is the worse ever.
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You're right. It might have been shortsighted and egoistic of Jenoptik to expect something positive after owning (and investing into) Sinar for almost four years.
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I suppose if smaller european companies like Arca, Alpa, Cambo, Silvestri can survive in this business, Sinar can too!
I suppose the Artec will be available for all mounts very soon. There should be a market for well engineered view cameras like the F3/p3 too. They still have the M System in their line-up which take different lens mounts (These AF Zeiss lenses should be some of the best MF lenses available) and should somehow also be available with different back mounts from differents manufacturers.
Sinar had released some amazing products, I really wish them luck.
Tom
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The current owner doesn't have faith in it anymore and is letting go of it because it only racks up losses without sight on future profits.
I wouldn't make that assumption. If it were true, it woud be impossible to sell and yet it has been sold. Many companies make sweeping commitments to focus on core products and divest themselves of other projects almost regardless of merit. When I was working at JPMorgan (London) a whole department was shut down (a decision from high up) although that department was making profit in the tens of millions.
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Whatever is going to happen. The current owner doesn't have faith in it anymore and is letting go of it because it only racks up losses without sight on future profits. These are not my words but what the owner is stating in a public press release. It seems the people that need to cough up the money don't want to do so anymore. It makes losses and is now on its own sofar no other financing has been reported. Jenoptik is so keen on getting rid of Sinar it is willing to let it go in what is probably one of the worst periods in time to divest assets. If Jenoptik would see just a glimpse of recovery my guess is they wait, hold on to it and sell it later for a better price or here is a concept; have a subsidiary that delivers them a profit.
Again, a deafening silence from a company that appears to be in turmoil. There seems to be a trend of sand and heads which doesn't bode well most of the time.
As much as I hope you are right Thierry, the way it currently looks is not good.
Just because a shareholder value controlled company with a wide spread product range doesnt see fast profit in a business unit doesnt mean anything IMO.
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and it wouldnt have been a bad idea as well if jenoptik waited with its annoucement to the moment when sinar finds the time to talk at the same how its going on.
I think Jenoptik was not able to wait cause Jenoptik is a stock corporation and they have to announce changes immediatelly when they are decided.
It sadden me to hear that Jenoptik discontinue the back business, but I already expected that 8 month ago. So I cross my fingers that Sinar will survive without Jenoptik, but this will be very hard.
Michael
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I have to contradict you there - Denmark and Sweden (Phase and Hasselblad) are officially back from holiday Monday August 3.
good to hear - i hope your right - as I have a H3 digi magazine waiting for repair!
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I think Sinar will continue as a bespoke maker of cameras as they used to be and good luck to them
Science, Industry, Nature, Architecture, Reproduction
Nick-T
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Nick,
with all due respect, "S" stands for "Studio".
Best regrads,
Thierry
Science, Industry, Nature, Architecture, Reproduction
Nick-T
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Nick,
with all due respect, "S" stands for "Studio".
Best regrads,
Thierry
Thanks for the correction Thierry, I couldn't remember all of the acronym so looked it up and both Wiki and this (http://the4x5camera.com/sinar/) site have it as "Science".
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hi Michael,
True, but nobody is expecting it to be easy and like a Sunday walk. However, and may be I am a fool to think this, I believe that Sinar has a better chance without a big company like Jenoptik behind/over it.
I hope you are doing well in Hambourg.
Cheers,
Thierry
So I cross my fingers that Sinar will survive without Jenoptik, but this will be very hard.
Michael
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No problem Nick.
There is another mistake on the 4x5" site: Sinar was started in 1948, not 47, with the development of the Sinar "Norma".
Best,
Thierry
Thanks for the correction Thierry, I couldn't remember all of the acronym so looked it up and both Wiki and this (http://the4x5camera.com/sinar/) site have it as "Science".
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Sinar is on it's own. And without digital backs.
The Jenoptic statement doesnt say either of those things.
which of the current range of digital backs would you like with your HY6?
Sinar HY6 for sale (http://www.image2output.com/Product.aspx?id=2076&cat=48)
(with warranty and support)
Edwn
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I think Hy6/AFi is exactly the same camera.
It is called Hy6 with Sinar back attached, and AFi with Leaf back.
F&H is now collapsed. P1/Leaf and Leica/Sinar can't produce that camera. So, nothing new is really said.
The summer holidays will continue as usual. It is hot summer here. If Sun will collaps, who will take the pictures?
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hi Michael,
True, but nobody is expecting it to be easy and like a Sunday walk. However, and may be I am a fool to think this, I believe that Sinar has a better chance without a big company like Jenoptik behind/over it.
I hope you are doing well in Hambourg.
Cheers,
Thierry
Hi Thierry,
without a big company some thinks are easier and some are more difficult, but without big investment Sinar isnot able to develop digital backs, so they will concentrate on cameras like the ArcTec. To sell this it is not necessary to have a big organisation. Look at Alpa and Arca they are really small companies. That is the reason why we see all the action like closing Sinar Germany and selling the shares of SinarBron.
We are doing well in Hamburg.
Michael
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hi Michael,
That is exactly what I mean to say, the concentration on where Sinar comes from. As for back development: the technology can be bought, if necessary, and it is not necessarily more expensive as it used to be.
Keep well,
Thierry
Hi Thierry,
without a big company some thinks are easier and some are more difficult, but without big investment Sinar isnot able to develop digital backs, so they will concentrate on cameras like the ArcTec. To sell this it is not necessary to have a big organisation. Look at Alpa and Arca they are really small companies. That is the reason why we see all the action like closing Sinar Germany and selling the shares of SinarBron.
We are doing well in Hamburg.
Michael
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As for back development: the technology can be bought, if necessary, and it is not necessarily more expensive as it used to be.
Agreed. I wouldn't be surprised if Jenoptik made a new back for Sinar in the future, under contract. It makes sense - Jenoptik already has the experience. But this is pure conjecture on my part.
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With digital back?
I suggest the Emotion 75 LV (http://www.image2output.com/Product.aspx?id=2011&cat=38) as the most flexible option because not only can it work with the HY6 but it also interfaces by design
with the :-
Sinar m
Sinar p3 (with Sinar sliding adapter)
Sinar f3 SL
Sinar p2
Sinar x
Sinar f2, f1
Contax 645 AF
Hasselblad H1
Hasselblad H2
Hasselblad 5xx series
Mamiya 645 AFD
Mamiya 645 AFD II
Mamiya 645 Super
Mamiya 645 Pro
Mamiya 645 Pro TL
Mamiya RZ 67
Mamiya RZ 67 Pro II
Rolleiflex 6001
Rolleiflex 6003
Rolleiflex 6008 prof
Rolleiflex 6008 integral
Rolleiflex 6008 integral 2
Rolleiflex 6008 AF
and a whole lot more !
so forgive me for being optimistic about the future but I think the Sinar's more open flexible (dare I say 'Industry Leading' ) designs put it in a stronger position than others.
This is shown by the continious support calls we deal with (from older leaf system owners for example
and yes we do still supply Volare power supplies) right through to newer issues with Leaf Afi and Rollei HY6 owners who we are able to welcome.
along with innumerable view camera components.
Edwin
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I wouldn't be surprised if Jenoptik made a new back for Sinar in the future, under contract.
Hasselblad and Phase One (and Leaf) make backs and/or adaptor plates allowing use on all kind of systems, including discontinued MF SLRs and view cameras. I expect that they will continue to do so, not scared those camera systems will undermine their 645AF systems. In that sense Sinar seems safe as a specialty camera maker.
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I am pretty sure that in a year or two Sinar can look back and be happy that they are free from Jenoptic.
I am crossing my fingers that Sinar finally starts to advertise their products like every normal business are doing.
Let us see Sinar M in the front of their ads. Is is really the greatest medium-format system on the market today,
but how can people know when nobody has ever seen one single ad??