Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: GeoffM on July 25, 2009, 01:38:45 pm
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I'm considering an Epson 7900, but the reality is, I won't be using it that often. I'm thinking several times a month, sometimes with a month of no use here and there.
Before I get hit with the "It would be a whole lot cheaper just to send the work out..." argument, yes, you're right. But I'm a control freak and spend a lot of time trying to get the color the way I want it, and to hand off the last - and some would say most critical - stage of the process to someone else just hasn't worked for me.
So I'm wondering what happens with head clogs, reliability, etc. when you don't use the printer on a regular basis. I come from the Fuji Pictro world, where all I had to do was add water and print, and it didn't matter how long between runs, it just worked. Looking for larger format printing now, with better paper choices, and hoping the 7900 would fit the bill. Any concerns other than ink? Is paper storage an issue as well? I'm in Houston, lots of humidity, AC on all the time (at least in the summer), if that matters.
Thanks for any advice!
Geoff
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Hi Geoff,
I just went through a similar process of selection, and considered the 7900. Like you, I expect to have significant periods of time between prints, so the head clog potential became important in my selection. I ultimately decided to go with the Canon ipf6100. Many users of this printer reported leaving it for periods of time, and then coming back to make a print with no issues at all. Also, the ipf6100 was about $1k less than the 7900, and a bit less hefty in weight as well. There are some reports of head clogging on the 7900, but I think the consensus is that it is much improved over the 7880.
Good luck with your decision.
-Rich
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I have left my HP Z3100 unused for days at a time, and even 3-4 weeks, and have never had a clog.
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If you left those printers off for a long period of time you probably had some clogs ... you just aren't aware of it. There is a high likelihood that at least a few nozzles were clogged and remapped to spares. If you leave these printers off for extended periods often, the heads will be consumed faster. If you leave them off for a very long time, there is a chance you won't be able to clear the head. (Talking about over a year here ... happened with an ipf5000). If you leave these printers on 24/7 (which is recommended) the heads will be consumed slower, but ink will be consumed (very gradually) ... more ink than you might realize.
Not criticizing this technology - it's great, and the heads may still take a very long time to be consumed and need replaced.
As far as the OP's question, it very well could be a 7900 would be problematic enough so the underlying point of the two previous posters has some merit. It's tough to say. A few months ago I might have agreed with them. It is obvious my first 7900 was a lemon however, as the second one is performing very well after a couple of weeks of settling in. I only start up this printer once or twice a week, and recently started it up after 2 weeks of being off. My last clog was over 3 weeks ago despite this, and that was one color which only took about 1.5ml of ink to clear. Will this continue? Perhaps too soon to say, but I'm pretty optimistic it will. I have also been running this printer with ANC fully functional for every print for about a month to check it, without any unnecessary cleanings being performed. This is pretty typical of my experience with the 11880, which I only use a couple of times a month, and have only had to clean nozzles a handful of times in nearly 2 years.
Since the minimum size of cartridges are 350ml doing some occasional nozzle cleans may not actually cost you any ink, since it sounds like it may take more than a year to consume the inks. You may have to discard some partially fully ink cartridges anyway.
As far as paper storage, as long as you keep them in the plastic bags I would think you would be fine. My only issue with older rolls of paper is some of them seem to have more curl.
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I have left my HP Z3100 unused for days at a time, and even 3-4 weeks, and have never had a clog.
That, and the 130 ML cart sizes of the Z3100-Z3200 make it the champions for intermittent use. The nozzle abandoning stories are not something observed in practice, over two years of intermittent use on the Z3100 here and no head had to be replaced. Warranty on them is passed many months ago. Heads and cart replacement is however affordable and user friendly. For the control freaks the calibration and profiling aboard must be nirvana.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
New: Dinkla Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html (http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html)
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Thanks very much everyone for all the thoughtful replies.
Wayne, you mention ink life as one consideration in my scenario. It that because the inks will no longer be usable after a year, or the printer will insist on replacement? Can you elaborate on this please?
Thanks,
Geoff
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Wayne, you mention ink life as one consideration in my scenario. It that because the inks will no longer be usable after a year, or the printer will insist on replacement?
The former. The printer won't force you to stop using the inks, but Epson's stated installed life is 6 months for proper color accuracy and viscosity. You can run them longer (and many of us have in many printers), but at some point you do reach a time there are visible problems or repeated clogging issues.
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The former. The printer won't force you to stop using the inks, but Epson's stated installed life is 6 months for proper color accuracy and viscosity. You can run them longer (and many of us have in many printers), but at some point you do reach a time there are visible problems or repeated clogging issues.
Thanks Colin.
Ernst's comment regarding ink capacity makes sense now. I didn't really get why the smaller cartridges would be considered an advantage.
Sounds like I'd be wise to stick with the 150ml carts if I choose the 7900.
Geoff
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Geoff,
I purchased a 7900 just four months ago and am a very occasional user as this is just one of my hobbies. I've been getting along fine using it and love the results. A check print is prudent before a print job and many times a color pair clean is required. I don't have the experience to compare this model to older Epsons. Ralph
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Geoff,
I purchased a 7900 just four months ago and am a very occasional user as this is just one of my hobbies. I've been getting along fine using it and love the results. A check print is prudent before a print job and many times a color pair clean is required. I don't have the experience to compare this model to older Epsons. Ralph
The Canon iPF series do very well with long waits between uses - I print several shows worth of images each year, but often go a couple months between intense bursts of printing... Neither my former printer (iPF 5000) nor my current iPF6100 have ever complained.
-Dan
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The Canon iPF series do very well with long waits between uses - I print several shows worth of images each year, but often go a couple months between intense bursts of printing... Neither my former printer (iPF 5000) nor my current iPF6100 have ever complained.
-Dan
I agree. My IPF5000 is much better in this regard than my Epson 2400. The ipf5000 runs the occasional automatic cleaning cycle, but other than that I've never had an issue; no ruined prints, no need to print nozzle checks before a print job. My 2400 on the other hand, almost always needs multiple cleaning cycles to get a clean nozzle check after it's been sitting. The Epson Piezo heads have some advantages compared to the thermal heads used by Canon and HP, but clogging is the big disadvantage.
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Relative humidity has a lot to do with how susceptible Epson printers are to clogging. The more humidity, the less clogging. I live in Central Florida and have not had much trouble with my 9800 and 7800 machines. The 7880 and 7900 head technology is supposedly less prone to clogging than the 7800, and previous models.
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Relative humidity has a lot to do with how susceptible Epson printers are to clogging. The more humidity, the less clogging. I live in Central Florida and have not had much trouble with my 9800 and 7800 machines. The 7880 and 7900 head technology is supposedly less prone to clogging than the 7800, and previous models.
I agree that humidity is helpful, but this is much less of an issue with the newer Epsons. I live in Utah (desert) where humidity is low, especially in the winter. My 3800 has only had a couple of clogs in two years, and my 11880 has probably had around 10 clogs since nov of 07. After a little bit of a rough start my replacement 7900 has gone nearly a month with no clogs.
All 3 printers are used very intermittently ... most go a few weeks at a time between power ups. The 11880 went 3 months without being turned on during the early part of this year while I was dealing with some serious health issues with my wife, and had one nozzle in one color clogged when I started it up. I didn't even run a clean since I was printing out a very non-critical print. Cleared up without a nozzle clean.
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For all the epsons (I dont know about the others) it is recommended to shake the cartridges if they have been left on the shelf or standing for a long time (months). This has helped with color issues in my experiance.
Edwin
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I just wanted to point out that where Canon and Epson are concerned, there's no free lunch. Epson printers have no spare nozzles, so when one or more get clogged there's clear evidence that a clog exists, and the printer uses ink to clear it. Clogs never fail to clear, though it can take a lot of ink if the printer sits for a very long time. Heads last the life of the printer, which is quite long.
Canon printers have many spare nozzles. When a nozzle that's in use gets clogged and the printer's cleaning cycle cannot clear it, the printer "maps in" a spare nozzle to take the clogged nozzle's place. This means that while you see an occasional cleaning cycle, you never see evidence of a clog, even though clogs ARE occurring. But when all of the spare nozzles are consumed (clogged) the printer stops working and tells you that you need to replace a print head. There are two, and a set costs around $1200. Early version heads can fail in as little as two years, and later version heads (which can fit the older printers) are supposed to last longer.
I've oversimplified things a bit, but just wanted to point out that you pay for clogs either way. Based on what I've heard and experienced, low use means more clogging in both Epson and Canon printers. For Canon that means shorter head life and for Epson it means more ink consumption. With Epson you pay as you go in ink. With Canon you pay less as you go, but are occasionally hit with big bills for new heads. I have no idea which printer has a lower cost of ownership in the long run, but neither one is cheap.
I guess I'm essentially repeating what Wayne said above. Does anyone know of a long term (say 5 year) cost comparison?
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I agree that humidity is helpful, but this is much less of an issue with the newer Epsons. I live in Utah (desert) where humidity is low, especially in the winter. My 3800 has only had a couple of clogs in two years, and my 11880 has probably had around 10 clogs since nov of 07. After a little bit of a rough start my replacement 7900 has gone nearly a month with no clogs.
All 3 printers are used very intermittently ... most go a few weeks at a time between power ups. The 11880 went 3 months without being turned on during the early part of this year while I was dealing with some serious health issues with my wife, and had one nozzle in one color clogged when I started it up. I didn't even run a clean since I was printing out a very non-critical print. Cleared up without a nozzle clean.
Wayne, I don't remember asking you, but I'm curious. Since owning the 11880 what prompted you to buy the 7900? I'm assuming the 11880 does everything the 7900 does?
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Wayne, I don't remember asking you, but I'm curious. Since owning the 11880 what prompted you to buy the 7900? I'm assuming the 11880 does everything the 7900 does?
I had an ipf6100 in my office which I replaced with the 7900.
I have the 11880 in my home workroom.
The 11880 is fantastic, although I think the 7900 output is a little better with some files ... not enough difference to replace the 11880 with a 9900. I also like the 11880 for Breathing Color Canvas since it requires MK ink, and the 11880 doesn't need to switch.
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Hi Wayne,
For the clog rate you mentioned, do you mean minor clog that cleared by running normal nozzle check/ auto clean, or those serious clog that need running power cleaning to fix?
I bought a 3800 last christmas, I thought it was clog free, until I did a nozzle check (from LPF panel software, not the printer panel) recently, I have 2 nozzles clogged. They are cleared after the nozzle check, but a significant amount of ink was used in the cleaning action.
There were 2 nozzles clogged, but nothing wrong I could spot from the prints. Then I knew the NC has to be done regularly. Although I never had the printer sitting there without printing for more than 2 weeks.
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I've oversimplified things a bit, but just wanted to point out that you pay for clogs either way. Based on what I've heard and experienced, low use means more clogging in both Epson and Canon printers. For Canon that means shorter head life and for Epson it means more ink consumption. With Epson you pay as you go in ink. With Canon you pay less as you go, but are occasionally hit with big bills for new heads. I have no idea which printer has a lower cost of ownership in the long run, but neither one is cheap.
I guess I'm essentially repeating what Wayne said above. Does anyone know of a long term (say 5 year) cost comparison?
I will make it a bit more complex then. There's a HP Z3100 here with 6 heads, 2 channels each. It is used intermittently over the last 28 months and no head needed replacement. The heads are out of warranty already but they still are considered OK by the sensor that checks the droplet output. I never have cloggs, banding, lines, with that printer. As soon as a head will show problems it will be replaced by me. Price must be something like 60 Euro each. So far I do not see evidence that one pays the costs of a clog free printer in ink or heads, the Z3100 is frugal on ink.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/)
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I would second the humidity angle. If I don't keep humidity up in winter I get more clogs with my 9800. I do still have to head clean once in a while even though its summertime and humidity is naturally up. BTW. To anyone. If you run a nozzle check and get a few dashes not printing in a given color is that enough for you to run a head clean? Whats your tipping point for a head clean? Is it really going to matter if a two or three dashes here and there are not printing?
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Again, thanks everyone for all the advice and comments. It really was a tough decision with all three brands having their distinct advantages. In the end I went ahead and ordered a 7900 (with some great help from Sarah at Spectraflow!) and it will be here next week.
One question: Should I leave it on all the time so it can do its maintenance thing when it wants to, or is it better to turn it off when not in use?
Geoff
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Again, thanks everyone for all the advice and comments. It really was a tough decision with all three brands having their distinct advantages. In the end I went ahead and ordered a 7900 (with some great help from Sarah at Spectraflow!) and it will be here next week.
One question: Should I leave it on all the time so it can do its maintenance thing when it wants to, or is it better to turn it off when not in use?
Geoff
You should turn the Epson off if it won't be in use for a while ... such as overnight. This seals the head and helps prevent the nozzles from drying out. the Canon's and HP's are better if left on except for extended periods of time, as they constantly prime the nozzles with miniscule amounts of ink.
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You should turn the Epson off if it won't be in use for a while ... such as overnight. This seals the head and helps prevent the nozzles from drying out. the Canon's and HP's are better if left on except for extended periods of time, as they constantly prime the nozzles with miniscule amounts of ink.
Thanks Wayne.
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Again, thanks everyone for all the advice and comments. It really was a tough decision with all three brands having their distinct advantages. In the end I went ahead and ordered a 7900 (with some great help from Sarah at Spectraflow!) and it will be here next week.
One question: Should I leave it on all the time so it can do its maintenance thing when it wants to, or is it better to turn it off when not in use?
Geoff
Hi Geoff -
I will be curious on the end results and your experiences with the 7900. in Houston.. I've had two ink clogs with very occasional use and now question my printing requirements in Austin.
Jeff
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Wayne, the service tech at Epson told me not to leave the 7900 powered on when not in use for awhile for the reason you stated, so that is good advice. He also suggested running a nozzle check daily just to flow a little ink. Do you have any other tips or tricks that you use to minimize clogs in a printer which receives light use? Sounds like whatever you are doing is working... Thanks.
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Wayne, the service tech at Epson told me not to leave the 7900 powered on when not in use for awhile for the reason you stated, so that is good advice. He also suggested running a nozzle check daily just to flow a little ink. Do you have any other tips or tricks that you use to minimize clogs in a printer which receives light use? Sounds like whatever you are doing is working... Thanks.
Personally at this point, after trying out the recent firmware update, I now always start the printer in service mode, run a nozzle check from the computer and then use the service mode cleans to resolve any issues. A service mode CL1 still appears to use far less ink than anything in normal mode, and it will almost always resolve missing nozzles. You can run a CL1 on the entire head if you have nozzles missing from several colors that do not share channels, or you can do a CL1 for just a channel or two when just a couple of colors are affected. MOST of the time when I start up I have only one or two colors affected. unfortunately after this recent service the issue of dropping full colors is resolved, but the printer has exhibited clogs any time it sits for more than 8 or 10 hours, or any time I start it up.
I can't find any documentation on how much ink is consumed when cleaning in regular mode. Even with the recent firmware update that actually lets me turn off nozzle checks, cleaning from normal mode still consumes more ink, and unless I can find out from a reliable source it is similar to a CL1, I'm sticking with those, because they will consume the least amount of ink of any option.
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You should turn the Epson off if it won't be in use for a while ... such as overnight. This seals the head and helps prevent the nozzles from drying out. the Canon's and HP's are better if left on except for extended periods of time, as they constantly prime the nozzles with miniscule amounts of ink.
Of all the recommendations to help reduce ink clogging this has been the most helpful & effective!
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I started this thread a couple of months ago so I thought I'd add a quick update on my experience with the 7900 so far.
Starting out things were a bit rocky, with probably more cleanings than I would have liked. Lately - especially after the latest firmware update - I haven't had a single clog. That includes a two week no-use period and a one week no-use period. Not sure if the firmware had anything to do with it or if it's just coincidence. Regardless, it's always a pleasure to fire up the printer, run a nozzle check, and have everything look good. And when I have experienced a clog, clearing it has been easy thanks to all the great advice posted here - especially Wayne's detailed info.
So at this point the verdict on occasional use is a big thumbs up. After a break-in period for me and the printer, things have been good.
Geoff
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Well i am not by any means a pro at this but i got a 7900 when they first came out. in the beginning i was printing a lot cause it was new but ever since i have gone atleast 2 months with nothing to print. i always leave the printer on though if that has anything to do with it. it might have some clogs but i can't tell and when the cleaning process is done it seems fine. everyone i sell a print too seems to love it so i guess it is all right. my only problem is i wish i got the 9900. i would have if i had more room to put it.
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I recently returned from a month-long trek though the west/southwest. Along the way, I talked with various photographers. A couple of them feel that they can save considerable money by outsourcing their printing. By doing so, the printing is done by people who specialize in the art of printing. I for one, like to do everything myself. But printing is VERY expensive overall. What are your thoughts on this?
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I recently returned from a month-long trek though the west/southwest. Along the way, I talked with various photographers. A couple of them feel that they can save considerable money by outsourcing their printing. By doing so, the printing is done by people who specialize in the art of printing. I for one, like to do everything myself. But printing is VERY expensive overall. What are your thoughts on this?
Printing for yourself is all about control, very rarely about saving money.
I would also suggest this might be better as a new thread, not tacked onto this sort of old one.
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100 prints and a $5k printer makes the machine cost only $50 per print and it only gets better
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100 prints and a $5k printer makes the machine cost only $50 per print and it only gets better
GREAT POINT. But, there's also the cost of ink and paper .... which adds another $5,000. LOL
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GREAT POINT. But, there's also the cost of ink and paper .... which adds another $5,000. LOL
You can spend 10 grand on a D700 and 200-400vr f/4 and shoot some awsom images.
Or you can spend 10 grand on setting up a top notch print studio.
Or you can spend 10 grand for a country club membership and play some nice golf.
Or you can spend 100 grand on a real nice motorhome and see some great places.
Get the drift.
Most hobbies have a major dollar amount attached.
Pick your poison.
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For luster/glossy RC-type prints, the labs are hard to beat on price - especially if you don't particularly enjoy printing yourself.
For inkjet prints on specialty papers it's a little different though. The pro labs that offer these tend to charge $20-25/sq-ft, and and that's for fully-prepped files (by you) with no proof. Plus you're going to have to choose from their limited selection of papers, which may not be exactly what you want. It doesn't take many 20x30" prints at $90-100 + shipping for a 24" printer to pay for itself, especially if you time your purchase to take advantage of the rebates Canon and Epson have been offering.
Still, I think it's something you have to enjoy for it to be worthwhile, otherwise the learning curve will just be a big headache and it will take time away from other things you'd rather be doing. I enjoy printing, for me it's part of the process and I like having complete control of the final print.
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Just to add my two cents-- I would say that even if it doesn't make sense, it does make sense. i.e. owning an epson 7900 or something similar vs outsourcing may or may not make sense in terms of cost depending on how much you print. But even if it doesn't make financial sense, I still think it makes sense in the control and learning that goes on by having a printer in your home; I realized that outsourcing and even going and printing myself at a local lab in SF-- Rayko (which is a great place), I was never going to get really good at printing and never going to experiment with different papers, materials, profiles, fabrics, and everything else. In the end, I've printed and experimented and learned way way more by having made the plunge. Yes, there are occasional frustrations and headaches, but despite these issues- I think it's worth it. I also feel like getting that detail-oriented about prints has made me a better photographer as well.
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Just to add my two cents-- I would say that even if it doesn't make sense, it does make sense. i.e. owning an epson 7900 or something similar vs outsourcing may or may not make sense in terms of cost depending on how much you print. But even if it doesn't make financial sense, I still think it makes sense in the control and learning that goes on by having a printer in your home; I realized that outsourcing and even going and printing myself at a local lab in SF-- Rayko (which is a great place), I was never going to get really good at printing and never going to experiment with different papers, materials, profiles, fabrics, and everything else. In the end, I've printed and experimented and learned way way more by having made the plunge. Yes, there are occasional frustrations and headaches, but despite these issues- I think it's worth it. I also feel like getting that detail-oriented about prints has made me a better photographer as well.
Well said!
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Just to add my two cents-- I would say that even if it doesn't make sense, it does make sense. i.e. owning an epson 7900 or something similar vs outsourcing may or may not make sense in terms of cost depending on how much you print. But even if it doesn't make financial sense, I still think it makes sense in the control and learning that goes on by having a printer in your home; I realized that outsourcing and even going and printing myself at a local lab in SF-- Rayko (which is a great place), I was never going to get really good at printing and never going to experiment with different papers, materials, profiles, fabrics, and everything else. In the end, I've printed and experimented and learned way way more by having made the plunge. Yes, there are occasional frustrations and headaches, but despite these issues- I think it's worth it. I also feel like getting that detail-oriented about prints has made me a better photographer as well.
I certainly concur with your premise.
The risk is the time spent learning/printing can take a photographer away from how they make money, which is taking pictures. For some photographers this isn't an issue, but for many it can be problematic, in that printing begins to infringe on time that could be spent on something more profitable, such as shooting.
Finding a balance is important.
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I totally agree with all of you, and I thank you for taking the time to express your thoughts. I'm a control freak (as many of us are); and that's the main reason that I invested in large format printing gear. I want to do more experimenting and learning in this area, but I feel frustration. Each of us has to learn pretty much on our own .... from the ground up. Personally I like learning in small workshop type settings. I thought that I had found the perfect workshop when I saw a "Digital Printing for Fine Art Photographers" listed at the Ansel Adams Center. While it was a GREAT workshop, not much time was spent on the ins and outs of printing. I had hoped that we would be introduced to various types of papers, ect. But that didn't happen since Epson and HP supply the center with printers, paper and inks.
My next hurdle is finding papers that I'm happy with. I thought that I had it nailed down. But I've learned that the paper that I settled on for B&W prints -- Epson's Ultrasmooth Fine Art paper, does not reproduce color well. And to make things worse, I have an Epson 7800. So every time I change from matt black to photo black ink, I waste a ton of ink. Aargggg
Without purchasing a lot of paper, does anyone know of a paper supplier that will send free samples? If I lived near NYC, I could simply stop at B&H Photo. But it's a 10 hour drive .... a little far.
I just get a bit depressed in today's economy. Sales of fine art prints have been really down the past couple of years; not just for me, but everyone. It's one reason that some of the big name guys have taken to offering workshops, selling calendars and books. As income drops, the costs associated with "doing business" continue to mount. Advances in technology presents us with new and better gear every couple or three years. While it's easy for some guys to drop a few thousand bucks here and there on gear, it's much more difficult for others. That brings me around to my initial question: wondering whether it might be more cost effective to outsource printing? I guess that it was an unnecessary question, since I want print control myself!
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Jan,
We try to make the paper search a bit easier by offering 5-sheet packs (all 5 can be different) of 8½" x 11" for $9.95 + shipping. Of course, this is for papers that come in this size. It has proved to be an effective method for our customers to evaluate, profile, print papers that they may otherwise not have been able to test without purchasing a box or roll. With the constant flow of new product the choices can be overwhelming. In addition, some manufacturers, such as Canson and Hahnemuhle offer nominally priced sample packs to test the performance of their papers. As a matter of fact, Hahnemuhle has just split their packs into two categories, Matte FineArt Sample Pack and Gloss & Canvas FineArt Sample Pack, due to the increased number of media in their product line, which now numbers twenty.
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That, and the 130 ML cart sizes of the Z3100-Z3200 make it the champions for intermittent use. The nozzle abandoning stories are not something observed in practice, over two years of intermittent use on the Z3100 here and no head had to be replaced. Warranty on them is passed many months ago. Heads and cart replacement is however affordable and user friendly. For the control freaks the calibration and profiling aboard must be nirvana.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
New: Dinkla Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html (http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html)
I thought I would use my Z3100 more often than I do. It can go weeks without printing anything. I've never so much as had to do a head cleaning on it until a month ago or so when the MK head showed up in a test print as being clogged.
The print head warranties expired some time ago, though I haven't put much ink through - all but two cartridges are the originals that came with the printer.
I'm more worried about the hard drive dying with the printer turned on all day every day.