Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: erick.boileau on July 19, 2009, 05:30:25 am
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If I have no interest at all in the video (and I have not except for familly) , which threat can be RED for the Medium Format ?
will they produce Medium Format (without video) and IQ + price competing for photo ?
another question: who manufactures optics for RED ? is there already any comparison with Hasseblad Zeiss Leica lenses online?
thank you
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This explains most of it:
(http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/hype.jpg)
It's been covered in this forum again and again. Here's one such thread from last year in which some people were predicting Red was on the verge of taking over the photo market: http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=29435 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=29435)
Nothing's happened since then. MFDB prices have dropped significantly. Red is even less of a threat than before. (Sure, things *might* be different in 5-10 years).
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Given that the main threat to the MFDB industry is from the 35mm DSLR sector it would seem to me that any fusion of film/stills with modern day needs of usage would be far better served by the same 35mm DSLR sector with its huge customer base than by massive sensors in bulky packaging with a modular system that will reach MFDB prices giving files already proven too big to be economically necessary, totally unnecessary for video, providing manic processing times and a quality utterly OTT for the required usage. Seriously, why on earth would there be the slightest need for files from MFDB sized (nevermind the truly silly 6X17) video? Feel free to tell me that I'm wrong but I'd guess that working fashion photographers are much more impressed by the P40+ than the P65+ which seems to be the rich amatuer or enthusiasts choice. Who the heck would ever want even more megapixels and that in video?
If MFDB's are on the edge of being economically justified already due to the economy and vastly shrinking client requirements, just how long would it take for Canon to cream RED for the MFDB market who are looking for video in a DSLR like package but actually made from scratch to work with video? Rather than the 5D mkII which seems to have been a simple and lightly implemented experiment that became rather interesting. Seriously, a new DSLR which has full video control, a tilt & swivel screen, outputting the video in RAW at 21 FF megapixels, serious audio controls oh and incidentally with a serious AF system, weather and shock proof, in the same size as a 5D and using all the canon lenses and extras. Canon could probably do it for $4000 and release it this year en masse. What working photographer is going to care about RED then?
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Pom ::
I agree, for me the Canon 5D Mark II is "necessary and sufficient" for familly video , a good camera for a good price
with a MF like H3DII 39 (or P45) I have enough pixels (and my computer says STOP !!!) and the quality is outstanding ... what else ? : a better screen , better batteries, a Bulb mode, ... and that's it ! I can keep my camera for 20 years
It's been covered in this forum again and again. Here's one such thread from last year in which some people were predicting Red was on the verge of taking over the photo market: http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=29435 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=29435)
Nothing's happened since then. MFDB prices have dropped significantly. Red is even less of a threat than before. (Sure, things *might* be different in 5-10 years).
good to know that I am not alone, I see nearly no interest in RED except if I can buy an Hasselblad cheaper
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I don't think RED will make a camera capable of stills only. Why would they when they apparently have found ways to capture 25/50/100 etc fps in full resolution?
Last year I had ONE request to shoot a tv commercial AND do the stills for the print ads at the same time... this year so far probably been asked 10 times. So I'm for one have to buy into the RED or whatever to keep up with demand (would not mind the $4000 Canon...).
AndreR
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http://mediastorm.com/0019.htm (http://mediastorm.com/0019.htm)
http://mediastorm.com/0025.htm (http://mediastorm.com/0025.htm)
http://mediastorm.com/0023.htm (http://mediastorm.com/0023.htm)
Scroll across those projects and view them if you have time. It's really easy to say, "Oh, yeah, I'll just start shooting video", but do you have the skills to tell a story; structure a shooting schedule; drag around an audio guy with a boom mike; raise the money; go back and back again and again to shoot more footage; and then spend days, weeks editing all that stuff? I'm not sure if I do.
It's easy to watch something like that, but watch it in the context of "how long did it take to do that?" or "how did they do that?" and it changes.
Just because a 5D2 or a Red Scarlet can go from Stills Mode to Video Mode at the flip of a switch doesn't mean than a human being can.
That Red would have to get a hell of a lot smaller for me to really want to use it day in and day out, for stills. And it's very easy to say, "Oh, we'll just grab a Still Frame from the Video", but honestly, set alone on its own, would that really be the best approach for a Stills shoot, on many projects? I guess we're really beginning to dismiss the importance of a still photograph at that point.
I know several filmmakers that also shoot stills. Their passion is film. I think most people -- you're one or the other. Rarely do you find people that do both things equally well. It's such a different skillset, yet on the surface, they seem so similar. They are not. I just think you run the risk of trying to do both stills and film, and you end up being half-ass at both. David Lynch might do both well, but let's be honest, this probably ain't David Lynch out there carrying a camera around, alone.
http://interviewproject.davidlynch.com/www...isodes/017-john (http://interviewproject.davidlynch.com/www/#/all-episodes/017-john)
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Human beings have a tendency to see the world filtered through a screen made up of their own personal requirements. "I don't need such and such, therefore it won't be a commercal success." That's not the way the world of commerce works. Successful companies look at what the overall market, or at least a targeted segment wants, and then try and fill that need. Or, in some cases, such as with Apple (and I believe RED) lead the market in a new direction.
Andre's comment "Last year I had ONE request to shoot a tv commercial AND do the stills for the print ads at the same time... this year so far probably been asked 10 times. So I'm for one have to buy into the RED or whatever to keep up with demand" is exactly what this is about. Other working pros have echoed it on these pages in recent months.
The print world is dying. The online and on-air world is growing, and the online world includes stills as well as the need for motion production.
The wealthy hobbyist, the fine art photographer and the amateur may not need video, but working pros do. And if they don't today, they will tomorrow. It's simply the way that things are going.
Maybe the Apple analogy is a good one. Two years ago Apple had zero presence in the phone market. Now, it is the hottest brand, and the App store has revolutionized the industry. The iPhone itself causes people to stand in line – literally. When was the last time someone stood in line for a Nokia phone?
24 months ago there were smartphones, but Apple did it right, and now Nokia's quarterly sales are down 70%.
I believe that the Scarlet and Epic will be a game changer. I could be wrong (it won't be the first time), but those that poo poo the company, its products or its vision do so at their peril.
Sure, Canon, Nikon, Sony and Panasonic can and will compete, just as Nokia, Palm, Sony Errikson and the rest do in smartphones. But when a disruptive technology or company comes along being the incumbent fat cat doesn't buy you much. Just ask General Motors.
Michael
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I was actually hired to do that 'one' job I referred to. I was shooting (with my H3D) in 'parallel' to the film guys, they lighting up the set (indoor studio) with their HMI's and kinos while I used my studio flashes. Funny how they kept on asking ME about how best to light the thing...as I was the 'photographer' (so I should know best?). They even asked me if I could 'direct' the talent while they were filming... Anyway, made me think why I didn't do the whole thing myself (specially when I know they got paid 5 times more than me).
AndreR
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It's been covered in this forum again and again. Here's one such thread from last year in which some people were predicting Red was on the verge of taking over the photo market: http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=29435 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=29435)
Nothing's happened since then. MFDB prices have dropped significantly. Red is even less of a threat than before. (Sure, things *might* be different in 5-10 years).
And if that one day eventually happens, nobody will stop anybody to buy one of those bloody cameras and the world will keep spinning.
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The print world is dying. The online and on-air world is growing, and the online world includes stills as well as the need for motion production.
And for that we need MFDB levels of pixels in big expensive rigs? You said it yourself, it's needed for online use. Why should the industry require much more than a slight paradigm shift in the current solutions such as the 5D mkII or the GH-1? Methinks that the industry in this economy is not interested in spending that much anymore however much the rich hobbyists love to spend on P65+'s (which I'd be interested to hear if any working fashion pro would even begin to justify from a business point of view). I can't see that RED will be any different.
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I was actually hired to do that 'one' job I referred to. I was shooting (with my H3D) in 'parallel' to the film guys, they lighting up the set (indoor studio) with their HMI's and kinos while I used my studio flashes. Funny how they kept on asking ME about how best to light the thing...as I was the 'photographer' (so I should know best?). They even asked me if I could 'direct' the talent while they were filming... Anyway, made me think why I didn't do the whole thing myself (specially when I know they got paid 5 times more than me).
AndreR
I know someone, she a well known fashion/celebrities photographer.
She has began to film commercials a few years ago and recently, over dinner, she told me: " i do filming because it seems 'a thing to do' and my agent asks me of doing it. But it is a pain: got to go through several meetings and more working days, sometime I get involved for two weeks, just to shoot 30 secs clip and I still get less than 50 grands. when I do a photo commercial job I still get 50 grands and I have to work just 1 day and maybe a couple of meetings."
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"....and for that we need MFDB levels of pixels in big expensive rigs? You said it yourself, it's needed for online use..."
I think the point is to shoot stills and motion at the same time. Same framing, same lighting, same 'look' etc. And then have the possibility to grab ANY frame for the stills you need for print media. So you shoot the whole thing in full resolution, and then output the 'movie' to whatever format you want/need, even low-res web if that is what you need (or hi-res for that tvc...).
"...get involved for two weeks, just to shoot 30 secs clip and I still get less than 50 grands.." Sounds good to me!
AndreR
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when I do a photo commercial job I still get 50 grands and I have to work just 1 day and maybe a couple of meetings.
sounds better to me
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Human beings have a tendency to see the world filtered through a screen made up of their own personal requirements. ...........................But when a disruptive technology or company comes along being the incumbent fat cat doesn't buy you much. Just ask General Motors.
Michael
In 45 minutes the crew arrives and we're out the door to shoot a project in motion and in stills, different cameras, somewhat different techniques but one mindset.
Is it the right thing to do, or am I "happy" to do both . . . I don't know because that covers a lot of territory, but I am positive if I didn't have the capabilities to do both I wouldn't be shooting today and turning a profit and even if I was only capable of shooting one medium I would be marginalized.
Early on I moved to digital for the same reason I've been learning to shoot motion, not to become marginalized by technology or by lack of knowledge.
Do I love the still photograph, well yes I do or maybe I "did", but that doesn't mean I can't do both or at least give it a hell of a good go. I don't agree with the sentiments you can't be good at both, but then again I've never been big on tradition.
I heard the same thing on the transition from film to digital, "our photographers shoot film, or digital is just a fad, or why would a photographer want to be a lab and a pre press guy". I knew then that was just a head in the sand approach and I feel the same way about the talk about stills to motion. (And btw: to a person everyone that said those quotes is no longer in my industry).
In commerce it's not just what I want, in fact it's not about what my client's need today, it's what they may need in a few days or weeks or months, because things change very fast in today's world.
Maybe I won't be Ridley Scott, but that was never the goal anyway, though as an advertising photographer, now advertising image maker, I do think I can take the years of experience and bring something to the game.
Now is the RED or the words motion imagery hype? Maybe but that's what pop art is . . . hype and to a very large extent commercial and editorial image making is about hype and and must be current. No client wants their product to look old, no client wants to miss out on an opportunity.
I get a big kick out of the fact some people talk of digital still photography like it's traditional. That to me is a mind scratcher because when was the last time you delivered film to be viewed on a lightbox and that was just 7 or 8 years ago when you did.
Old is out.
I doubt seriously if anyone at this stage in image making can shoot something that to some extent has not been done before, but the successful artists learn to keep pushing their message, going forward and not looking back, shooting something that their "specific" client hasn't had before.
Michael's analogy of the I-pone is perfect. Prior to that there were hand held computers, (though big) smart phones with cameras (thought small) organizers like Palm, (though limited) and all apple did was put it all together in one easy to use package.
That's my goal, one easy to use package and in today's world doing more equates to being more.
I can make a very long list of people in my industry that are not working today, retouchers, photographers, printers, labs, digital techs and crew and though some is a reflection of the economy, some is just the result of not keeping and open mind and hoping that life magically resets itself 4 years back.
That won't happen . . . never has.
JR
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I think the point is to shoot stills and motion at the same time. Same framing, same lighting, same 'look' etc. And then have the possibility to grab ANY frame for the stills you need for print media. So you shoot the whole thing in full resolution, and then output the 'movie' to whatever format you want/need, even low-res web if that is what you need (or hi-res for that tvc...).
It's so easy to just fall back on that statement: "We'll just pull a frame grab", but many times, what works as a moving commercial might not work as a solitary print ad, even if it's from the same concept. It always sounds so easy, when the creatives are sitting around a conference table, but it's quite another thing when you're down in the trenches, actually doing the work.
I did a job in March, a four-day ad job, and the client asked me to shoot video and stills. The usage was for print ads (300dpi CMYK), non-moving web banners from the stills, and flash-based ad banners with moving imagery. The concept was roughly the same for the moving images and for the print, but not exactly. I accepted the stills part, but declined the motion part. I knew my brain would be full with all the details of the stills part alone, and we'd be humping long hours on that alone, let alone last-minute weather issues and last-minute client changes and scheduling changes. (It was).
In reality, even though the film crew was shooting right behind me, they shot different angles to get their moving-image concept. There is no way in hell I could have done both. Just in "hours in the day" alone.
In the end, it was the weirdest job I ever delivered: my stills concept had to achieve three things simultaneously:
1) 8.5x11 proportion vertical for print use
2) long long wide horizontal for web banner
3) long long tall vertical for web ad
And when I say "long long" I don't mean 16x9, I mean much more extreme than that. But even weirder, the print ad part of the image had to be dead center, and both overlapping web banners would extend out from that. So in the end, the images I delivered (every shot), was made up of about six to eight images each, and the final image was shaped like a cross; vertical long and horizontal wide. Imagine that. So yes, the commercial world is changing, due to internet banner ads.
But my point is: the Stills portion is still very demanding, and I still maintain: Jack of all Trades, Master of None. Pick your craft -- film or stills, and get busy. Because each one is going to take 110% of your brainpower to keep up.
So easy to say you can do both well. Bullshit.
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And when I say "long long" I don't mean 16x9, I mean much more extreme than that. But even weirder, the print ad part of the image had to be dead center, and both overlapping web banners would extend out from that.
You are actually very right. I know I 'need' to get into this motion/moving photo business, but it is not going to be easy. The tv commercials I have been asked to look into are obviously landscape format, the billboards/print ads they want from the same shoot are all portrait format. Not to mention the extensive photoshopping...(how do I do THAT on lets say 90 THOUSAND frames?)
AndreR
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Not to mention the extensive photoshopping...(how do I do THAT on lets say 90 THOUSAND frames?)
AndreR
It's done all the time. In the motion world it's called "grading" and all of the tools that one is used to (and more) are available. With RED and its successors and imitators it's done on raw files, and therefore even "better" than what we do now with "baked" video, which is the equivalent of JPGs in terms of malleability.
As for resolution, the Scarlet and Epic will be available with 3K, 5K and 6K resolution sensor. 6K (6,000 pixels across) is the equivalent of a 24 Megapixel sensor in stills terms, so think Nikon D3X, Canon 1Ds MKIII, Canon 5D MKII and Sony A900 resolution at up to 30 FPS, raw, and with variable shutter speeds, not just those appropriate for motion.
So, grabbing a raw 24MB still from a video or high speed sequence will be possible.
No, MFBs won't be threatened just yet, but here's what RED has said about the Epic 645...
Epic 645, which will have a 16 bit 42X56mm 65 Megapixel sensor and will be able to shoot at up to 50 FPS. This model will have a Mamiya 645 lens mount and will cost some $45,000 when it becomes available in Spring of 2010.
It's easy to disss RED when it comes to their forecasts, but one just has to look at the profound and totally disruptive effect that they've had on commercial video and feature film production in Hollywood and around the world during the past two years to know that they are for real.
They are now in a "quiet" mode, which is totally appropriate as they proceed to bring their new cameras to market. But anyone that calls their announcements of last fall Hype just doesn't understand how brilliant their pre-marketing campaign is being.
Just look at all of the online discussions, such as this one!
Michael
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Just look at all of the online discussions, such as this one!
http://ow.ly/his7 (http://ow.ly/his7)
Video showing the new camera.
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Epic 645, which will have a 16 bit 42X56mm 65 Megapixel sensor and will be able to shoot at up to 50 FPS. This model will have a Mamiya 645 lens mount and will cost some $45,000 when it becomes available in Spring of 2010.
Just curious where they are sourcing the sensor from?
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It's done all the time. In the motion world it's called "grading" and all of the tools that one is used to (and more) are available.
Michael
Ok, so i will have something new to learn I guess.
Lighting is my other 'headache'.... I'm quite familiar with flash lighting and use it on 99% on my work (fashion/portraits/interior/food/sport/nature/...). My workhorse is battery powered profoto/Bron packs with Para's, Giant's and different modifiers. I often work 'alone' and carry all my stuff in my tiny car. Will that be a thing of the past? Will I have to get a ton or two with HMI's etc to be able to do something similar to what I do today? I keep a keen eye on what is happening in the continuous lighting world, but have never seen anything remotely as 'powerful' as a flash in the same 'package'...
AndreR
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Just curious where they are sourcing the sensor from?
The sensor is called the Mysterium – I guess for a reason.
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i am reading with a lot of interest these discussions about the red here, although in my field of work there hasnt arrived any video ndemand yet, at least not to me. but nevertheless digital arrived in architecture photography late too, and this was one of the reasons for many photographers to wait and to wait and to wait with the adaption for it or to engage themselve to explore the chances and new looks digital imaging brings. for many business this has been the end or they move forward to it..
so at least i can imagine a new change again and i think its worth to be attentive whats going on.
the 5d2 is exciting and at least a nice tool to become friend with video, although for me just on a "playing" level- but i start to love it and to have ideas what i coukd do with it. thats how things sometimes start for me, playing around. i just uploded this nice new firmware ( described in the LL video test of the 5d2 ), and of course: the red features/ prices sound amazing. phase has to hurry up to sell enough p65 before the prices will be marginalized one more time...
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QUOTE: Lighting is my other 'headache'....
Lighting equipment too has changed and will change - although more slowly than cameras I suspect. How long ago were Brute's (arc-lights) replaced by HMI's?
However, it is amazing to me what is now achievable through high ISO and fast lenses. There will always be a need for finely controlled continuous lighting and its necessary equipment but that equipment today can often be smaller and less expensive than in the past due to lower light requirements. It can be more portable, more user friendly and with less need of power, manpower and their related paraphernalia. Not everything need be shot at ISO 50 or 100. ISO 1600 can make a lot of difference. But the equivalent output of continuous vs. flash will remain a major step for stills folk.
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.. it is amazing to me what is now achievable through high ISO and fast lenses.
This is also the direction I probably will take. IF the next 5DmarkIII, 1DsIV can shoot FF full-res video or RED Scarlet/Epic 35FF can take EF lenses then my choice is obvious (using my 1.2/1.4 glass). IF I on the other hand get my hands on a EPIC 645 (EPIC 617 is slightly overkill for me right now...) and have to use 'slow' MF glass then I'm not so sure anymore.
AndreR
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I'd like to know what kind of batteries they have to be able to shoot at up to 50 FPS 24 mp RAWs :-)
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where the sensor is coming from? have you ever realised that nearly every soldier in the world wears Oakley glases? I guess these contacts gave Jim quite a shortcut to source military supply. Did you really think those sensors are designed for photographers?
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I hope that Jim makes a 4x5 sensor camera with live view and contrast detection auto focus with huge DR and options to realistically convert to popular film types in RAW. But what they are doing with their new sensors has really surprised me.
The 5D2 video is nice, but you can see how it'd be a lot better with simple improvements from Canon. Anyway, just the lowly Canon video takes a lot of processing time and space on my new Mac.
Bill
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The whole video thing is actually just a plot to get us to buy bigger and faster macs.
Michael
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The sensors are new designs, designed by RED's in-house experts. They're not bought in from Kodak or Dalsa or... etc. Part of that is that we get to control what we're doing, and have the ability to innovate, and part of it is that we have very specific requirements for how fast those sensors can be run because we do motion and (will be) stills. And because of the rather nice compression engines in camera, you can keep that raw sensor resolution at a very high fps through to your storage medium. Your style of photography may not require a high burst rate, or even motion capture, but you will certainly enjoy the amount of shots you can take on a card and the speed that they get saved and not waiting for a buffer to write to card because the system is designed for the higher requirement of real time raw motion capture.
Now, I'm not a sensor designer, but I do know a few, and this high speed side of things is rather tricky. But there are ways to cheat high speed on a CMOS because usually on CMOS designs you can read off any row in any order. The more rows you try to read off, the slower everything goes. So, if you feel like it, you could skip reading some rows and get a more HD sized output off the sensor, with just a bit of scaling needed to make the "HD" image. This would make a sensor appear to run much faster, but can and does lead to some atrocious artifacts in the image. So we don't do that. Similarly, doing high quality scaling of video in real time is quite easy from a mathematical definition point of view, but hard from a fit it all in hardware, to run in real time, with minimum power consumption point of view. You could just cheat on the scaling, and hope people don't see seams in the image, or aliases or funky color artifacts. So we don't do that.
There are both cost, technical and mechanical design reasons why video can look vastly inferior to a camera's stills capabilities. Doing motion properly is by far the harder task than doing stills properly. You can see that in how far ahead digital stills cameras are compared to traditional video cameras, and how quickly image processing software for stills has developed compared to grading software for video. It's just so much easier and so much less computer resource consuming to deal with stills images than motion imagery.
Now is the time for motion to finally catch up to stills, and for stills to benefit from the technology that allows motion to produced at the same quality as the stills. So that's what we're doing. We're making motion look as good as stills shot on the same camera.
Graeme
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The whole video thing is actually just a plot to get us to buy bigger and faster macs.
Michael
That could be true, :-) , but the new REDRocket accelerator card is helping a lot with the image processing: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=32588 (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=32588)
Graeme
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How many employees does RED have? Where's the fab for the "self-designed" sensor? Also in Singapore like the camera-production itself to cut taxes and wages?
The new Leica-S2-sensor is also "developed by Leica", which means that they decided for a size and rough specifications, microlenses and filtering. But the architecture is still developed by Kodak and it is manufactured in their fab.
A little bit more transparency and little bit less marketing, please.
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and who produce the lenses ?
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The whole video thing is actually just a plot to get us to buy bigger and faster macs
Yeah, but even Macs seem cheap once you buy a Red Epic and the Primes.
I always liked buying a new house, when you are spending $300K you can always sneak in another $3oK for toys, etc.
Ooops, just checked - that $300K house is now worth $30K here in Michigan. Anyone want to trade for a Red?
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My workhorse is battery powered profoto/Bron packs with Para's, Giant's and different modifiers.
Andre,
I use all Bron. I bought a couple of Bron HMI a few years ago when I shared a building with a video production company. Can also use 650 watt modelling lights on 220 if you have it. I have about 8 tungsten heads along with that.
You can use the HMI with most of the Bron light modifiers. Certainly with the Para. The biggest concern is things like softboxes. Mine are non-Bron, just swap out for Cine boxes.
Not the best way to go $$ wise if you are starting from scratch. But for someone who is already invested in Bron ... Then throw in a Honda generator.
I will miss my Verso kit and that pop of the flash when we go all continous.
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When I say designed in house, I mean totally designed, as in the circuits, the pixels on the chip - everything is a in-house custom design. I do not mean rough specifications. I mean designed in the full sense of the word designed.
Graeme
How many employees does RED have? Where's the fab for the "self-designed" sensor? Also in Singapore like the camera-production itself to cut taxes and wages?
The new Leica-S2-sensor is also "developed by Leica", which means that they decided for a size and rough specifications, microlenses and filtering. But the architecture is still developed by Kodak and it is manufactured in their fab.
A little bit more transparency and little bit less marketing, please.
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When I say designed in house, I mean totally designed, as in the circuits, the pixels on the chip - everything is a in-house custom design. I do not mean rough specifications. I mean designed in the full sense of the word designed.
Graeme
wow, I thought red was ambitious..but the speed and depth to which they are developing products is amazing..graeme, I don't see how you guys have enough hours in the day to get it all done. thanks for the link on the redrocket thread, it has been ahile since I last got a good dose of where you guys where at and I am impresssed. Jim makes mr jobs look like he is coasting.
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We had to start with a totally custom and unique sensor design as there was nothing quite right to buy off the shelf. When you get far into it, you may as well go the rest of the way, so now we're doing custom asic chips for the camera functionality, our own lenses, and REDRAY 4K content delivery player, so basically very high resolution end-to-end motion and soon to be stills imagery. We are all very enthusiastic, and most of the people there are complete camera geeks.
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the whole motion/film/still transition is nothing new at all....when i assisted in NY in the 90's i worked for 2 guys (both commercial, catalog shooters) and we frequently had a little track and arriflex in the studio to shoot 5 or 10 or 15 sec clips of the same girl for a tv ad....a lot of celebrity shooters in LA switched to music videos entirely....there was way more money in it.....
the web and LCDs and with digital video getting so much better and cheaper, it is all just a natural transition.....for fashion/people/commercial i really don't think the difference is that much (although i am sure some people would still like to make their clients believe it was and charge them the big movie bucks!).....if we are talking about 5 or 10 sec clips that are edited down to 2 or 3 sec segments,the story is told in editing...very much like an AV show (anyone remember those)....so if i take 5 frames of the girl spinning and smiling or 150 really makes no difference to me (or the girl)....
i will be shooting a job in a couple of weeks and part of this job will be video...for the first time...it will be interesting....
what is interesting is how this will affect the movie crews.....here in LA i am always blown away by the enormous crews, 20 guys running around with headsets, nobody seems to be doing anything....and everybody is union! how will that work out?
i will be shooting a lot of video over the next couple of months...trying to keep things really simple and not adding to my still crew.....it will be interesting....
as for the RED: i welcome anything and everything that will make my life easier and that will help me put my vision out there....i don't see how this company can come out of nowhere and completely take down canon, sony, panasonic and nikon....somehow that just does not sound believable....i think the 5DIII will mop the floor with all that.....FF 25mpix at variable framerates, articulate 3.5 screen, clean iso 800 (usable 3200) for less then 3000$.......but any competition will just light fires under the big a..es....
apple has been an major innovator since the start so the iphone or the ipod (which was simply a product nobody knew they needed)....did not really come out of nowhere......fuji did come out of nowhere to take on kodak....
the fact that red comes out of nowhere, with everything done in house pretty much shows what is wrong with DMF....all these companies with all this history and all these patents and know how just could not get it together....
whatever anyone says, the red (compared to a H3D) is just from another planet.....
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the fact that red comes out of nowhere, with everything done in house pretty much shows what is wrong with DMF....all these companies with all this history and all these patents and know how just could not get it together....
whatever anyone says, the red (compared to a H3D) is just from another planet.....
Interesting. Here is what you said about the Leica S2:
"nobody is badmouthing leica....some are simply discussing the yet unproven concept of the S2 in a professional photography context 2009....which is questionable....most here seem to agree that we actually all WANT this to succeed....because we all at one point or another have had a certain leica bug....
what we do know is that the lenses will be great....what we HOPE is that the body/capture/digital end will be a lot smoother then the m8 release...
i really hope leica has learned from that fiasco...it is a lot easier to sell a camera everybody is waiting for to use their lenses on the a completely new system...for the highest end (even for leica) and actually not even for their market....one could argue that the only professional cameras leica have built is the m line for photojournalists....the S2 is made for commercial pros, which is a new market for leica....
sorry, as good as the R line was, i have never seen or heard of a pro using it, although i am sure there are/were some because of its obvious advantages (it always comes down to the lenses with leica...)....
i am afraid the S2 will fail inspite of being maybe the best "MF" system ever made....probably because it is the last...."
Why the double standard??? What has Red done to convince you that at least on the issue of IQ for stills, it will surpass Phase/Hasselblad?
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let's compare at the end , pixel to pixel, the best system (sensor + lenses) , for the moment RED is just a great motion camera
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Why the double standard??? What has Red done to convince you that at least on the issue of IQ for stills, it will surpass Phase/Hasselblad?
wow, someone is actually reading all this...
i don't consider the RED to be on a different planet because of IQ but because it provides image makers with a tool they need (not more pixels and the same old lcd)...especially in a changing market....i believe the S2 will better then all DMF simply because leica did not start the project with a DMF back in mind...(but it still follows that old road which is why i don't think it will be a success....)
the H3D and even more so the latest mamiyas are just newer, fancier versions of old stuff....a GM comparison was made here somewhere, and i think it fits here...a modern car still has 4 wheels but it sure is different then what has come out of detroit in the last 20 years...especially when they tried to MAKE it look "modern" and "new"....but that is a different story....
just spoke with a stylist who happens to be working on a big sports campaign right now....one huge stage, half day stills, half day motion for web, displays,.....
i just don't understand how RED can pull 100frames/sec off a 645 chip (at 40mpix 16bit) and phase and all others manage 1/100th of that...blows my mind.....
and from what i have seen in print from the red one (which really isn't even "made" for stills, with it's small sensor and limited resolution) it really confirms my opinion that DMF is dead.....
and just in time apple has released their new final cut studio...which looks amazing and will probably keep me busy.....
at 300$ less then before.....
and speaking of GM and hasselblad.....microsoft's profit is down 30%...but i am sure windows 7 will change all that:)
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wow, someone is actually reading all this...
i don't consider the RED to be on a different planet because of IQ but because it provides image makers with a tool they need (not more pixels and the same old lcd)...especially in a changing market....i believe the S2 will better then all DMF simply because leica did not start the project with a DMF back in mind...(but it still follows that old road which is why i don't think it will be a success....)
the H3D and even more so the latest mamiyas are just newer, fancier versions of old stuff....a GM comparison was made here somewhere, and i think it fits here...a modern car still has 4 wheels but it sure is different then what has come out of detroit in the last 20 years...especially when they tried to MAKE it look "modern" and "new"....but that is a different story....
just spoke with a stylist who happens to be working on a big sports campaign right now....one huge stage, half day stills, half day motion for web, displays,.....
i just don't understand how RED can pull 100frames/sec off a 645 chip (at 40mpix 16bit) and phase and all others manage 1/100th of that...blows my mind.....
and from what i have seen in print from the red one (which really isn't even "made" for stills, with it's small sensor and limited resolution) it really confirms my opinion that DMF is dead.....
and just in time apple has released their new final cut studio...which looks amazing and will probably keep me busy.....
at 300$ less then before.....
and speaking of GM and hasselblad.....microsoft's profit is down 30%...but i am sure windows 7 will change all that:)
RED can pull it off by using a high compression in their raw format. Will this be seen in a final still ? I'm pretty sure a Hassi or Phase will old a lot more micro detail. Will it really matter in real live ? Well I'm not so sure. Shooting at 24 or even higher fps is very tempting.
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The RED ONE is made in Singapore, the first RED-lenses were rehoused consumer-sigma-lenses, so who is really making the sensor and who makes the lenses?
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and from what i have seen in print from the red one (which really isn't even "made" for stills, with it's small sensor and limited resolution) it really confirms my opinion that DMF is dead.....
I don't think it's dead, but I do think it's going to settle into its quiet little niches -- either for tethered advertising, or for Amateurs That Think That Big Prints Mean Good Pictures.
What MF needs is some Sex. They're slowing falling into that category of That Smelly Old Man That Gets The Job Done, And Shows Up On Time, But Needs A Shower And A Change Of Clothes.
But I have no mercy for them -- we've been bitching about the tiny, pixellated LCD for years, literally, and it's been completely ignored. They have made their own bed, chasing megapixels, so now, they've gotta lay in it. So be it.
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RED can pull it off by using a high compression in their raw format. Will this be seen in a final still ? I'm pretty sure a Hassi or Phase will old a lot more micro detail. Will it really matter in real live ? Well I'm not so sure. Shooting at 24 or even higher fps is very tempting.
Well, the compression is only part of the solution to high fps on large sensors. The other part of the solution is sensors designed for very fast readout, very fast read/reset times, and having the processing power and architecture to deal with an awful lot of data at once. The compression is the part that allows you to record these high fps that the sensor can shoot onto a reasonable sized media. Without it, we'd be carrying around a refrigerator of hard drives to record the images.
I can understand the hesitancy over the use of compression, however, what I like to think on is what the compression enables in terms of how it allows you to shoot with much more freedom, rather than any potential perceived quality loss. If the compression allows you to get the shot you want, then the alternative could have been no good shot at all in it's full uncompressed glory. That's not a trade I'd make. Beyond that, we'll just have to wait and see how the cameras actually perform, and how the compression (which is a lot more advanced than in the RED One) works in practice.
Graeme
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The RED ONE is made in Singapore, the first RED-lenses were rehoused consumer-sigma-lenses, so who is really making the sensor and who makes the lenses?
The box for the RED One does say made in Singapore. There are some very talented and highly skilled workers there.
The box for the first lens said made in UK. There are some very talented and highly skilled workers there.
The boxes for the new lenses say made in Japan. There are some very talented and highly skilled workers there.
Reposting of rumours and asking the same question over and over, getting a detailed answer on the sensor, then doubting that answer is not a constructive way to proceed.
I fully understand your skepticism and desire to know answers. However, you must realize that you're asking for commercially sensitive information and that you have no hope in hell of getting a response to those questions.
Graeme
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i just don't understand how RED can pull 100frames/sec off a 645 chip (at 40mpix 16bit) and phase and all others manage 1/100th of that...blows my mind.....
The off-the-shelf chips from Dalsa and Kodak can't be read very fast. For all the complaints people make about the MFDB makers, I still say that the lethargic sensor releases from Dalsa and Kodak are the worst offenders. If they made a 10fps chip with usable ISO 3200, the MFDB makers would use the chip - no question. How long did it take them to make a 645 chip?
Red is doing the right thing by designing their own chips. Kodak and Dalsa don't seem very interested in pushing the envelope on their own.
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Red is doing the right thing by designing their own chips. Kodak and Dalsa don't seem very interested in pushing the envelope on their own.
Neither where Canon and the rest. To me their plan seemed to be, progress with as little as possible wich gets away as a progress in order to not mess up the set market. And of course combined with dumbing down of the cheaper low end versions of their products. And its perfectly understandable, why would these set players want to change anything? All was working fine. In this situation it HAS to be an outsider wich does the innovation. I believe the Red sensor designers must all be frustrated Ex Canon engineers
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I think your RED is a fantastic new tool with entirely new possibilities for creative people and cinematographers. But it's not a magic gift, not a revolution from a technical point of view (no lossless compression, color interpolation, no optical viewfinder, no reliable information about the company, production or service) and not the superior successor to professional camera systems like ARRI and Panavision, either.
It's a nice prosumer-camcorder which made the 35mm-look affordable, implemented a convenient workflow (wavelet-compressed RAW - it's 4k data-rate is several times smaller than non-compressed RAW HD!) but it's sensor doesn't deliver a unique performance, instead the high number of photosites is used to market the magic number "4k" (Panavision uses a 12MP-sensor to create a non-interpolated 1080p-signal - engineers made this decision, while marketing-people from Sony wanted "4k" - the real 4k-camera is still in development).
Your marketing is attacking well-know professional companies like ARRI and Panavision. They rely on facts, they don't interpolate colors or use inevitable heavy compression. Their cameras are manufactured by highly skilled employees in the States, Germany or Austria, they use sensors from Sony or Cypress, developed by the Frauenhofer Institute or own subsidiaries. The lenses are made by Elcan, Carl Zeiss, Cooke or Rodenstock. No excessive marketing without facts, no unnecessary secrets, just transparency where needed.
Singapore is an interesting state with a very powerful financial system to seduce foreign investors. But nobody manufactures there without having cost reduction in mind. ARRI only uses employees trained for years in production/technical schools (tool-makers, machinists...) with wages multiple times as high as average wages in Singapore (workers in production get far less then 1000$/month). I know this mindset very well: everything that matters is design, low-wages for workers are necessary to stay competitive... But I think RED could have been a great chance for the USA to reestablish high-quality-craftmenship outside the military-industry, necessary more than ever!
Dalsa and Kodak focus on highest IQ, that's why they still use CCD with a higher fill-rate than CMOS. But they're more expensive to manufacture (because of specialized fabs) don't allow a high degree of integration. Dalsa had a faster CCD for their cine-style camera Origin but had to compromise IQ for speed.
I won't comment any further on this topic, just wanted to give enthusiastic photographers over here a slightly different perspective. I'm sure you already have well-thought counter-arguments I'm not being able to fight outside my native language
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The off-the-shelf chips from Dalsa and Kodak can't be read very fast. For all the complaints people make about the MFDB makers, I still say that the lethargic sensor releases from Dalsa and Kodak are the worst offenders. If they made a 10fps chip with usable ISO 3200, the MFDB makers would use the chip - no question. How long did it take them to make a 645 chip?
Red is doing the right thing by designing their own chips. Kodak and Dalsa don't seem very interested in pushing the envelope on their own.
but that is the point...why does a company like RED realize that hey can't depend on off the shelf sensors, while every single DMF company with years of experience simply put their future into the hands of dalsa or.....KODAK!
canon saw early on that the way to do this right was to make their own chips....it meant being a tad behind in the beginning but now they are in charge and they own and control all aspects of their product...
someone mentioned DMF lacking sex....i think that is where the S2 clearly does things right....
the RED or whatever comes after does not have to have the IQ or resolutipn or raw brilliance of the P65......what i have always wanted from digital is a solution that give me MF quality.....a couple of years ago that was DMF backs, now it is DSLR...simple as that....i never needed 8x10....it would be nice to have and i am pretty sure we will get it, but i am happy getting MF at SLR handling....nobody drools over counting eyelashes anymore....mostly because (almost) every camera can produce that already.....
i spend more time adding grain to my files then sharpening them....
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I think your RED is a fantastic new tool with entirely new possibilities for creative people and cinematographers. But it's not a magic gift, not a revolution from a technical point of view (no lossless compression, color interpolation, no optical viewfinder, no reliable information about the company, production or service) and not the superior successor to professional camera systems like ARRI and Panavision, either.
It's a nice prosumer-camcorder which made the 35mm-look affordable, implemented a convenient workflow (wavelet-compressed RAW - it's 4k data-rate is several times smaller than non-compressed RAW HD!) but it's sensor doesn't deliver a unique performance, instead the high number of photosites is used to market the magic number "4k" (Panavision uses a 12MP-sensor to create a non-interpolated 1080p-signal - engineers made this decision, while marketing-people from Sony wanted "4k" - the real 4k-camera is still in development).
Your marketing is attacking well-know professional companies like ARRI and Panavision. They rely on facts, they don't interpolate colors or use inevitable heavy compression. Their cameras are manufactured by highly skilled employees in the States, Germany or Austria, they use sensors from Sony or Cypress, developed by the Frauenhofer Institute or own subsidiaries. The lenses are made by Elcan, Carl Zeiss, Cooke or Rodenstock. No excessive marketing without facts, no unnecessary secrets, just transparency where needed.
Singapore is an interesting state with a very powerful financial system to seduce foreign investors. But nobody manufactures there without having cost reduction in mind. ARRI only uses employees trained for years in production/technical schools (tool-makers, machinists...) with wages multiple times as high as average wages in Singapore (workers in production get far less then 1000$/month). I know this mindset very well: everything that matters is design, low-wages for workers are necessary to stay competitive... But I think RED could have been a great chance for the USA to reestablish high-quality-craftmenship outside the military-industry, necessary more than ever!
Dalsa and Kodak focus on highest IQ, that's why they still use CCD with a higher fill-rate than CMOS. But they're more expensive to manufacture (because of specialized fabs) don't allow a high degree of integration. Dalsa had a faster CCD for their cine-style camera Origin but had to compromise IQ for speed.
I won't comment any further on this topic, just wanted to give enthusiastic photographers over here a slightly different perspective. I'm sure you already have well-thought counter-arguments I'm not being able to fight outside my native language
are you talking about franke&heidecke?
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I don't think it's dead, but I do think it's going to settle into its quiet little niches -- either for tethered advertising, or for Amateurs That Think That Big Prints Mean Good Pictures.
Different markets demand different things. Some niches in advertising have very little requirements when it comes to resolution and print-detail. Architecture, interiors, cars, many types of product photography, and others are often very resolution-dependent.
Landscape imagery being sold in galleries is one of those markets. For better or for worse buyers of landscape imagery will often linger over every part of the image; consciously or not they are influenced by the level of detail (often they do know it and even comment on it).
I am very interested to see where RED ends up in all of this. Only time will tell if the projected 6x17 chip and it's smaller-but-still-awesome-sounding kin will come to fruition, and if it does, whether it will perform as advertised. Until then it is just rumor and speculation. This segment of the industry is absolutely riddled with previous examples of "revolutionary" technology which was "months" away from being released that never saw the light of day or fell flat on it's face.
The other question is of course this: by the time RED has a shipping-available-and-bug-free product what will Phase, Hassy, and Leica be shipping. Since Phase has changed policies to only announce products at availability the answer to this question is entirely unclear.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:doug@captureintegration.com)
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I think your RED is a fantastic new tool with entirely new possibilities for creative people and cinematographers. But it's not a magic gift, not a revolution from a technical point of view (no lossless compression, color interpolation, no optical viewfinder, no reliable information about the company, production or service) and not the superior successor to professional camera systems like ARRI and Panavision, either.
It's a nice prosumer-camcorder which made the 35mm-look affordable, implemented a convenient workflow (wavelet-compressed RAW - it's 4k data-rate is several times smaller than non-compressed RAW HD!) but it's sensor doesn't deliver a unique performance, instead the high number of photosites is used to market the magic number "4k" (Panavision uses a 12MP-sensor to create a non-interpolated 1080p-signal - engineers made this decision, while marketing-people from Sony wanted "4k" - the real 4k-camera is still in development).
Your marketing is attacking well-know professional companies like ARRI and Panavision. They rely on facts, they don't interpolate colors or use inevitable heavy compression. Their cameras are manufactured by highly skilled employees in the States, Germany or Austria, they use sensors from Sony or Cypress, developed by the Frauenhofer Institute or own subsidiaries. The lenses are made by Elcan, Carl Zeiss, Cooke or Rodenstock. No excessive marketing without facts, no unnecessary secrets, just transparency where needed.
Singapore is an interesting state with a very powerful financial system to seduce foreign investors. But nobody manufactures there without having cost reduction in mind. ARRI only uses employees trained for years in production/technical schools (tool-makers, machinists...) with wages multiple times as high as average wages in Singapore (workers in production get far less then 1000$/month). I know this mindset very well: everything that matters is design, low-wages for workers are necessary to stay competitive... But I think RED could have been a great chance for the USA to reestablish high-quality-craftmenship outside the military-industry, necessary more than ever!
Dalsa and Kodak focus on highest IQ, that's why they still use CCD with a higher fill-rate than CMOS. But they're more expensive to manufacture (because of specialized fabs) don't allow a high degree of integration. Dalsa had a faster CCD for their cine-style camera Origin but had to compromise IQ for speed.
I won't comment any further on this topic, just wanted to give enthusiastic photographers over here a slightly different perspective. I'm sure you already have well-thought counter-arguments I'm not being able to fight outside my native language
Im not a pro working with a Red, but you should post THIS in the complaint department over at reduser.net if you want some serious answers. Should be fun to watch. Even from what I have only glanced at over there, I cant take you serious at all. Really. I only wonder whats YOUR motivation to inform me, the enthusiastic photographer. But well, things will happen regardless of what we talk here.
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Different markets demand different things. Some niches in advertising have very little requirements when it comes to resolution and print-detail. Architecture, interiors, cars, many types of product photography, and others are often very resolution-dependent. ..............................
The other question is of course this: by the time RED has a shipping-available-and-bug-free product what will Phase, Hassy, and Leica be shipping. Since Phase has changed policies to only announce products at availability the answer to this question is entirely unclear.
When I began shooting a combination of stills and motion, most photographers I knew replied that the only reason I'm getting this business is because I offered it.
I kind of shook my head on that one because I guess that holds true for everything every artist or business person does. The reasons I send web galleries is because I own computers, the reason I shoot digital is because I own cameras, hell I guess if I could make sculpture or paint I'd be selling that.
Regardless, all of these conversations will go round and round. Still Medium Format will hold their territory and say the image quality is better, still dslrs will say the same thing and maybe RED is not the solution, but it's honestly refreshing for some, heck any professional camera company to get close to giving me more than I asked for, not less and maybe RED dreams big, but I dig that because that's our job as artists, image makers, communicators . . . to dream big.
To have success I know I have to offer more than whoever I compete with and in todays world offering more is the only thing that works.
Doug, actually in the world of image making for commerce we don't just compete with other still photographers we compete for a part of the overall marketing budget, whether that is interactive, print or broadcast and if we don't move forward our industry will become even more marginalized than it is today. Maybe Phase/Hasselblad has a way to do that. I don't know, because as you mention there is no information.
I do know this . . . few people would think it's a good idea to stop buying professional tools, because one or two makers decided to not give out any information.
I have to admit I look at medium format still cameras almost with nostalgia and nostalgia is now a 2 year cycle, because even though the camera/backs can produce a superior still image if all the stars align properly, lighting, still subjects, planned singular poses, the world is moving past still subjects in planed singular poses.
I'm kind of amazed that medium format digital continues to give up territory. They lost the most of the commercial guys to the 1ds, all of the wedding photographers to the dslrs, most of the fashion photographers and I kind of wonder at what point they decide that maybe higher iso, bigger better lcd's, more focus points and even the ability to add fast frame per second imagery would be a good idea?
I know that the traditional camera makers and their followers will scream to high heaven about the disadvantages of RED, you see it on these forums already, because everyone wants to hold onto and protect their territory but that's not how you win a war.
You take the other guys territory.
Anyway, whoever makes what matters little to me as the camera is just a tool like a brand/type of light source and even that is changing.
The one single thing I am sure of is I do not plan on holding pat, standing still or even going backwards.
I know the results of that.
JR
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A few things make me laugh - "nice prosumer-camcorder", for which I respond with http://www.apple.com/trailers/wb/thebookofeli/ (http://www.apple.com/trailers/wb/thebookofeli/)
"no lossless compression" - lossless compression is very easy - you'll get around 2:1 or 2.5:1 on typical visual imagery, and the only difficulty comes in the still massive amount of hard drive space you need to store it all. Technologically, it's simple. Good looking real time lossy compression on 4k data is darn hard. I know that from personal experience.
Your attacking of color filter array sensors is also laughable. Did you not realize that the Arri D21 uses a 3k Bayer Pattern CFA? Or that you're on a photography forum where 99% of the cameras people use are Bayer Pattern CFA sensors? Come on... Get your facts straight before you post! The Panavision Genesis uses a RGB Stripe Color Filter array, a pattern that is just less efficient (but technologically much simpler to implement) than the Bayer pattern.
Interesting you mention Dalsa and their 4K digital cinema camera, which used a Bayer pattern CFA. I guess Bayer patterns are only bad when RED use them, not when Sony use them, or Arri or Dalsa or...
"I won't comment any further on this topic" - great. But it is a well known internet forum tactic to post less than factual posts, then make some reason not to respond to criticism. I will debate with anyone, but I'll stick to facts and reasoning, not FUD. I also prefer to know who I'm writing to. I use my real name on this forum. Michael and Chris have met me and know who I am. I'm sure a number of posters here have met me at tradeshows over the years.
"Your marketing is attacking well-know professional companies like ARRI and Panavision." you mentioned them - not me! I am friends with the top digital people at both Arri and Panavision. There is indeed friendly rivalry between us, but also some respect as I don't think either of them thought we could make a working camera to the spec and price - but we did. Of course, my earlier comments in this thread on the difficulties of doing high resolution motion imagery were directed at what both Canon and Nikon have done, and the visible corners they've cut to make video work on their designed for stills sensors. If we'd done such a short-cut we'd have been hauled over the coals for it by our customers. Instead we took the hard engineering route to make it possible.
"I'm not being able to fight outside my native language" - yeah, right - your English is doing just fine to write your posts, but it doesn't work to argue back?
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Singapore is an interesting state with a very powerful financial system to seduce foreign investors. But nobody manufactures there without having cost reduction in mind. ARRI only uses employees trained for years in production/technical schools (tool-makers, machinists...) with wages multiple times as high as average wages in Singapore (workers in production get far less then 1000$/month). I know this mindset very well: everything that matters is design, low-wages for workers are necessary to stay competitive... But I think RED could have been a great chance for the USA to reestablish high-quality-craftmenship outside the military-industry, necessary more than ever!
Dalsa and Kodak focus on highest IQ, that's why they still use CCD with a higher fill-rate than CMOS. But they're more expensive to manufacture (because of specialized fabs) don't allow a high degree of integration. Dalsa had a faster CCD for their cine-style camera Origin but had to compromise IQ for speed.
I won't comment any further on this topic, just wanted to give enthusiastic photographers over here a slightly different perspective. I'm sure you already have well-thought counter-arguments I'm not being able to fight outside my native language
Sorry do you have facts to back up your assertions?
I come from Singapore and I highly doubt that anyone in electronic and mechanical production get less than $1000 a month.
BTW you may be interested to know that Singapore has quite abit of experience in medium to high technology manufacturing.
and having high wages does not necessarily equate to better quality.
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In case you hadn't noticed, the US has basically run out of engineers because in the last 10 years anyone native-born with good language skills and a white face who was smart enough to be an engineer could get 10x the money by joining THE industry, Banking. Goldman Sachs made a *profit* of 3.7 Billion dollars this quarter, and paid out quite a few million dollar bonuses.
Of course, the US imports a lot of grad students, who then become slaves for their professors, and H1Bs who can't even change jobs. I went to a color science conference a couple of years ago. Almost everyone under 28 was asian, and most spoke chinese very well thank you. So I guess cameras and the chips in them are made by people who live in Asia and you should be thanking these guys and gals for supplying your tools rather than insulting them. Because I'm willing to bet that your own genius kids would never take up a low-paid and demeaning job such as schoolteacher in maths or physics, or production engineer or grad student in engineering. And yes, I did earn my PhD, so I have great respect for the smart and hardworking scientists and engineers from Asia who are advancing technology and engineering these days.
Edmund
I think your RED is a fantastic new tool with entirely new possibilities for creative people and cinematographers. But it's not a magic gift, not a revolution from a technical point of view (no lossless compression, color interpolation, no optical viewfinder, no reliable information about the company, production or service) and not the superior successor to professional camera systems like ARRI and Panavision, either.
It's a nice prosumer-camcorder which made the 35mm-look affordable, implemented a convenient workflow (wavelet-compressed RAW - it's 4k data-rate is several times smaller than non-compressed RAW HD!) but it's sensor doesn't deliver a unique performance, instead the high number of photosites is used to market the magic number "4k" (Panavision uses a 12MP-sensor to create a non-interpolated 1080p-signal - engineers made this decision, while marketing-people from Sony wanted "4k" - the real 4k-camera is still in development).
Your marketing is attacking well-know professional companies like ARRI and Panavision. They rely on facts, they don't interpolate colors or use inevitable heavy compression. Their cameras are manufactured by highly skilled employees in the States, Germany or Austria, they use sensors from Sony or Cypress, developed by the Frauenhofer Institute or own subsidiaries. The lenses are made by Elcan, Carl Zeiss, Cooke or Rodenstock. No excessive marketing without facts, no unnecessary secrets, just transparency where needed.
Singapore is an interesting state with a very powerful financial system to seduce foreign investors. But nobody manufactures there without having cost reduction in mind. ARRI only uses employees trained for years in production/technical schools (tool-makers, machinists...) with wages multiple times as high as average wages in Singapore (workers in production get far less then 1000$/month). I know this mindset very well: everything that matters is design, low-wages for workers are necessary to stay competitive... But I think RED could have been a great chance for the USA to reestablish high-quality-craftmenship outside the military-industry, necessary more than ever!
Dalsa and Kodak focus on highest IQ, that's why they still use CCD with a higher fill-rate than CMOS. But they're more expensive to manufacture (because of specialized fabs) don't allow a high degree of integration. Dalsa had a faster CCD for their cine-style camera Origin but had to compromise IQ for speed.
I won't comment any further on this topic, just wanted to give enthusiastic photographers over here a slightly different perspective. I'm sure you already have well-thought counter-arguments I'm not being able to fight outside my native language
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In case you hadn't noticed, the US has basically run out of engineers because in the last 10 years anyone native-born with good language skills and a white face who was smart enough to be an engineer could get 10x the money by joining THE industry, Banking. Goldman Sachs made a *profit* of 3.7 Billion dollars this quarter, and paid out quite a few million dollar bonuses.
Of course, the US imports a lot of grad students, who then become slaves for their professors, and H1Bs who can't even change jobs. I went to a color science conference a couple of years ago. Almost everyone under 28 was asian, and most spoke chinese very well thank you. So I guess cameras and the chips in them are made by people who live in Asia and you should be thanking these guys and gals for supplying your tools rather than insulting them. Because I'm willing to bet that your own genius kids would never take up a low-paid and demeaning job such as schoolteacher in maths or physics, or production engineer or grad student in engineering. And yes, I did earn my PhD, so I have great respect for the smart and hardworking scientists and engineers from Asia who are advancing technology and engineering these days.
Edmund
There are plenty of gifted American engineers, mechanical and electrical. They make things that kill people, and the software/guidance systems to get the job done.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gi6Ohnp9x8...mp;feature=fvwp (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gi6Ohnp9x8&NR=1&feature=fvwp)
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Actually this thing is a few years behind the best Japanese legged robots, and it's based on a breakthrough for legged locomotion invented in Japan called and ZMP. The reference design here is the Honda robot, Asimo.
http://world.honda.com/ASIMO/ (http://world.honda.com/ASIMO/)
Edmund
There are plenty of gifted American engineers, mechanical and electrical. They make things that kill people, and the software/guidance systems to get the job done.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gi6Ohnp9x8...mp;feature=fvwp (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gi6Ohnp9x8&NR=1&feature=fvwp)
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Actually this thing is a few years behind the best Japanese legged robots, and it's based on a breakthrough for legged locomotion invented in Japan called and ZMP. The reference design here is the Honda robot, Asimo.
http://world.honda.com/ASIMO/ (http://world.honda.com/ASIMO/)
Edmund
The locomotion isn't what's new, its the guidance and its stability controls. The locomotion is actually besides the point. The chassis is actually 5 years old and was designed to mimic the designer's Rotweiler.
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The locomotion isn't what's new, its the guidance and its stability controls. The locomotion is actually besides the point. The chassis is actually 5 years old and was designed to mimic the designer's Rotweiler.
Yes, I guess US roboticists are gentle academics who own Rotweilers ...
Edmund
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Yes, I guess US roboticists are gentle academics who own Rotweilers ...
Edmund
Most of the robot guys are kinda punk rock, inked arms, etc. I shot an editorial story on Robots in Pittsburgh, Boston, Walnut Creek.
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When I was a kid, I wanted to be a scientist so I could understand the world better. Kids in the US want to be scientists so they can design missiles or bombs or fighting machines. Inked arms and "bad boy"image fit right in.
Edmund
Most of the robot guys are kinda punk rock, inked arms, etc. I shot an editorial story on Robots in Pittsburgh, Boston, Walnut Creek.
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Seitz already do a 160 Mpx 617, rapid scan camera, and they say that when they have done their Alpa back, they will do a 617 scan back for Sinars etc., using their existing Salsa sensor that they use in their digital pano cameras.
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Kids in the US want to be scientists so they can design missiles or bombs or fighting machines.
Haha, have you seen Ironman?
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This thread now bores me. Cant we let it die until someone has say something substantially? Just a suggestion, not an order.
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This thread now bores me. Cant we let it die until someone has say something substantially? Just a suggestion, not an order.
Es tut mir leid. Vielleicht Ich kann an Red vortragen, weil Ich ein Red benutzen taglich. Jedoch ist das auch langweilig.
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When I was a kid, I wanted to be a scientist so I could understand the world better.
Edmund
That's so sweet!