Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: michael on June 25, 2009, 10:02:58 am
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Below is a verbatum press release issued this morning by Phase One. It has just purchased Leaf from Kodak. It had been rumoured in the industry for quite a long time that Kodak wanted to divest itself of Leaf.
It appears that Leaf and its products will continue under the Leaf brand, which is good news for current and prospective Leaf owners.
Broader implications of this marriage will need to be digested over the weeks and months ahead, but my view is that the continuation of Leaf and its product line is a very good thing for the medium format industry.
COPENHAGEN and TEL AVIV, June 25, 2009 -- Phase One A/S, in conjunction with senior management employees of Leaf, today announced that they have created a new entity, Leaf Imaging Ltd., to purchase certain assets of the Leaf camera business. The assets include the “Leaf” brand product names, engineering design and production tools. The new entity will also enter into an intellectual property license with Eastman Kodak Company that is royalty bearing to Kodak. Financial terms of the deal were not disclosed.
In collaboration with Phase One, high end Leaf digital camera equipment will continue to be developed in Israel and marketed under the “Leaf” brand through a global network of specialized and dedicated value added resellers.
Leaf high quality digital camera backs with up to 56 Mega pixels and superior resolution and image quality can interface to all leading medium and large format cameras.
“We are committed to exciting future developments for the Leaf brand of products through innovative engineering, worldwide marketing and customer service,” said Henrik O. Håkonsson, President and CEO, Phase One. “Leaf customers will benefit from the many synergies with Phase One.”
“Since introducing the world’s first digital camera back in 1992, Leaf has been recognized as a worldwide leader in the professional photography market. Our extensive digital imaging and color management knowledge, combined with Phase One’s software and hardware capabilities creates a unique opportunity for the world’s leading photographers,” said Dov Kalinski, General Manager, Leaf.
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Does this mean Phase can use Leaf's arrangement with Jenoptik to sells backs for the Hy6? I don't expect anyone to know that yet but am curious to know the implications.
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The whole question of the Hy6/AFI system and it's future is very much up in the air at the moment. The next week or two should bring some answers.
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So today, you can buy digital backs and related systems from Hasselblad, Phase One, Mamiya, Sinar and Leaf. But:
Mamiya = Phase One (as in the M18, M22 and M31 backs)
Now also Leaf = Phase One?
So in some way, the above list becomes Hasselblad, Phase One, Phase One, Sinar and Phase One.
Do Phase one dealers now become Leaf dealers too?
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Hopefully we will see Phase backs on AFI/hy6 cameras. Fingers crossed...
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That is indeed good news, and I am happy for all the Leaf employees who can keep their job. They deserve it, not simply to disappear.
For the rest, I guess we have to let some time pass and things will become clear.
Thierry
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but my view is that the continuation of Leaf and its product line is a very good thing for the medium format industry.
Good for the industry, yes, but is it good for Phase One? Let's just say it, there is a possibility of Phase One crushing the Leaf for more of a monopoly approach to the medium format market.
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Interesting times,
I also hope that all Leaf employees can keep their jobs now.
I'm really interested to find out what this means for the costumers.
Tom
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Good for the industry, yes, but is it good for Phase One? Let's just say it, there is a possibility of Phase One crushing the Leaf for more of a monopoly approach to the medium format market.
That makes no sense whatever. If Phase wanted to "crush" Leaf they simply wouldn't have purchased them. Phase was the only company that stepped up to the plate when Kodak decided to divest and Leaf's management went looking for a buyer or partner. I think that it's fair to say that of Phase hadn't acquired Leaf, as of next week there wouldn't be a Leaf any more.
Michael
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Does this mean Phase can use Leaf's arrangement with Jenoptik to sells backs for the Hy6?
No.
What this means is all medium format cameras will be designed by Mamiya, out of lightweight polycarbonate (which might anger a few traditionalists) but will be built under contract by F+H which means they will never come to market. That way the traditionalists won't be upset.
The software will be a combination of both systems, which will give updates daily instead of weekly and the lcd's will be touch screen but smaller for both brands.
There will be one upside .... Leaf will adopt Phase pricing so the price of a Leaf back will be a dollar a pixel, . . . $51,000,000 and $33,000,000.
There will be a third camera system call the mamleafa 33 and mamleafa 51, only available in Germany. It will be the lower costs version of the new Leaf, at .90 euros a pixel.
New marketing and website support will be announced soon and outsourced to Sinar who will be acquired by Mamiya, that was acquired by Phase, that sells a special camera in America bundled with a Leaf which is now a Phase.
OK, enough of the funny (or not so funny) stuff.
It would be nice if medium format land ever made an announcement that gave real information and we can all guess, but I assume there is a great deal of redundancy in these two brands so in the end, it's just one brand, one camera and one distributor/dealer network. But that's just a guess, because that's all anyone can take from this.
Someday, some company (other than Hasselblad) will understand the customer viewpoint when it comes to marketing.
If you had a burning desire to buy a new medium format camera, would this move you to any single Phase, Mamiya or Leaf Brand, or would it just confuse you?
BC
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I'm for one are glad with this solution.
When I heard the news I also had some sort of reflex of "what ?, could you repeat that please ?"
But the longer I think about it the better I think this can work out.
Just using a crystal ball:
There really are two main players at the moment, Phase one and Hasselblad.
Leaf for me was always the best back but was troubled with cameras, the AFi is great but with the F&H issue it's very hard to sell that I think.
Hasselblad is a well know and respected brand with great MF solutions.
When Phase one bought into Mamiya it was clear that it was a wise choice because IF Mamiya would go down Phase one would have a real problem.
So they secured the way to their own system, the choice of keeping it open was I think a very good one, although I also understand the Hasselblad approach and also there are benifits.
With Leaf getting into trouble it would mean that a LOT of technical engineering/good will/brandname etc. would dissapear and people would be left with two choices.
What now follows could be 100% wrong but it's my opinion so read it as that.
The new Mamiya backs are in my opinions the cheaper/less attractive options for phase one, or in other words backs that can be sold under the Mamiya brand for a better price but are less attractive than the new Phase one backs.
Because Leaf is in my opinion a different product than the Phase one backs it could be very well possible that Leaf is positioned as an alternative to the high-end phase backs or in other words Phase one is creating it's own competition but keeping it in house.
The only real problem we'll have is when Phase one gets into trouble, than we would loose not only phase one but also leaf and Mamiya......
let's just not think about that.
With the coorperation with leaf imaging I think there can be exciting new products, I've always admired the way the files of the Leaf backs looks and how they operate.
I hope phase one will continue to support Leaf capture as a solution or intergrate it into Capture one (but hopefully as an option).
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That makes no sense whatever. If Phase wanted to "crush" Leaf they simply wouldn't have purchased them. Phase was the only company that stepped up to the plate when Kodak decided to divest and Leaf's management went looking for a buyer or partner. I think that it's fair to say that of Phase hadn't acquired Leaf, as of next week there wouldn't be a Leaf any more.
Michael
It might not make sense right now, but you at least have to recognize the possibility. Phase One might make some announcements, maybe six months or a year from now.
The one thing Phase One has inherited from this purchase is an increase in payroll. It's just a possibility Michael.
- Rudy
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Hopefully we will see Phase backs on AFI/hy6 cameras. Fingers crossed...
locking Phase out of Hy6 platform obviously didn't help....
Having Phase attached to Hy6 will surely protect the investment of existing in terms of good business just a few Hy6 owners and of course
more importantly drastically increase the number of Hy6 cameras on the road/renting companies/stores/etc
Congratulations to PhaseOne!!!
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The real question for me is, "will capture one now support leaf backs?".
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So what happens to the "Strategic Cooperation" announced between Leaf and Sinar in September 2008?
http://www.leafamerica.com/ShowProductDetails/MenuID/1024/ (http://www.leafamerica.com/ShowProductDetails/MenuID/1024/)
-N
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The only real problem we'll have is when Phase one gets into trouble, than we would loose not only phase one but also leaf and Mamiya......
The MFDB market is very small. Virtually every single user counts. With this move Phase "buys" the Leaf user base.
And it's very good to keep the brand "Leaf" so that the users don't have to convert to another church...
I wouldn't worry so much about the future of Phase One... the company seem to be in buying mood and nothing indicates it's pure fatalism.
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I just got off the phone from interviewing a senior Phase One executive. I was told (and given permission to mention publicly) that once the Phase / Leaf deal closes the AFI camera system will not be on the product list available from Leaf and their dealers,
I was told that they will be keeping their options open with regard to the AFI platform, but that for the time being the AFI will not be part of their current marketing program.
Michael
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The real question for me is, "will capture one now support leaf backs?".
. . .and will Leaf mos file formats continue to be supported by Adobe and Apple as CaptureOne is a direct competitor?
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. . .and will Leaf mos file formats continue to be supported by Adobe and Apple as CaptureOne is a direct competitor?
Good question, though I don't see why not since already Phase One digital back files open natively in Adobe.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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Does this mean I have to start using a wake-up cable with my Leaf 54s and Mamiya RZ?
All of the confusion in MFDB is such a pain. I've been using backs since 2004, and never has it been as confusing as it is now. If I were new to MFD, coming from DSLRs, and I shot people, I would buy an H3D system and forget about everything else. Why? Because its fire and forget, its all in one, it make sense, and it mostly just works. Never mind the unforgiveable single AF point, it is the most user friendly experience you can get from a solvent company offering a truly quality product that you can order from B&H.
Phase should get on the AFI train, should allow .mos files to process in C1 using the color profiles/look up tables from LC 11.
To be honest, I wish Jenoptic bought Leaf, so that Jenoptic could learn from Leaf's marketing prowess.
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Ho ,
Please put the Leaf LCD on the P65+
Bugger--I just saw a Pig fly!
Wishin and Hopin--dah dah ---------
DesW
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Good question, though I don't see why not since already Phase One digital back files open natively in Adobe.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
As long as you use the Tiff format.
- Rudy
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Ho ,
Please put the Leaf LCD on the P65+
Bugger--I just saw a Pig fly!
Wishin and Hopin--dah dah ---------
DesW
Too Little ,Too Late...
WOW, it is a Dog eat Dog world after all!!!
Snook
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We'll see some amazing competition between Phase and Leaf as they both battle for market share and hence profits, right.....
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Bad ASCII graph, in terms of sales:
Canon: |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Nikon: |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
MF (all combined): ||
This news, while important to Phase management, and Leaf employees, is but a tiny blip on the radar. I just hope Phase stays focused on what's really happening in the marketplace, and the current wishes, needs, and demands of the evolving commercial photographer. Hint: Keep your eye on Canon; not Leaf, (or Hasselblad). Canon (and Red) could be to Phase, what Digital was to Film. Whoosh -- overnight.
http://blog.livebooks.com/2009/06/five-vid...till-vs-motion/ (http://blog.livebooks.com/2009/06/five-video-savvy-photogs-weigh-in-on-still-vs-motion/)
Let's be honest: MF is comprised of:
a. a bunch of old retired guys with money
b. a few digital techs
c. a few advertising photographers (very few, in the grand scheme)
d. some architectural guys (very few, in the grand scheme)
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Hmmm... this means there will be basically 2 camera systems, Mamiya/Phase and the H? The Afi/Hy6 can now probably be regarded as a discontinued product. I wonder what will happen with the digital back division at Sinar, is that already faded away..? The expected consolidation is at the moment really starting to happen.
I further wonder what the mentioned synergies between Phase & Leaf will be. I find it quite an unexpected turn of events. I would have expected a merger between Sinar/Leaf before this but hey, we currently live in turbulent times
Kudos to Phase for a bold and unexpected move, I hope they will make it a succes.
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That is indeed good news, and I am happy for all the Leaf employees who can keep their job. They deserve it, not simply to disappear.
For the rest, I guess we have to let some time pass and things will become clear.
Thierry
Short term yes, but we still have to wait and see what happens long term. Personally I don't see the point for Phase to buy out Leaf and then keep the whole organization intact, what purpose would that serve? As far as sensor technology is concerned Phase already has access to both Dalsa and Kodak chips, their dealer network is stronger, their software is good enough, so what is it that Phase will gain here? Leaf's tooling? or some fresh brain power, which they might have been able to get without purchasing Leaf? Can you tell me how Phase benefits from this acquisition besides blocking a future investor? Though I don't know who would have bought Leaf at this point...
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Short term yes, but we still have to wait and see what happens long term. Personally I don't see the point for Phase to buy out Leaf and then keep the whole organization intact, what purpose would that serve? As far as sensor technology is concerned Phase already has access to both Dalsa and Kodak chips, their dealer network is stronger, their software is good enough, so what is it that Phase will gain here? Leaf's tooling? or some fresh brain power, which they might have been able to get without purchasing Leaf? Can you tell me how Phase benefits from this acquisition besides blocking a future investor? Though I don't know who would have bought Leaf at this point...
I don't understand it either, especially if the AFI is dead, that's the only reason I could see for buying Leaf. Was Leaf profitable?
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I am sure Phase had to pay very little in cash for Leaf's assets(they were the only bidder and Phase has always been a bottom fisher), so this move really amounts to a very cheap, "destroy the competition" move. In one fell swoop, Phase puts Leaf away as a competitor and probably Sinar as well(a two-fer!). Without Leaf as a partner on the Hy6/AFI platform, it becomes much more likely that Sinar itself will pull the plug on the digital back and Hy6 business rather than going it alone. However, in the broader scheme of things, it strikes me as a foolish move. Leaf and Sinar today really are not competitors to Phase. This is not 2004 when Leaf at least was a very worthy competitor to Phase and Hasselblad/Imacon was stuck selling backs that had to be hooked up to portable disk drives hanging off of your neck or belt. This is 2009, and Phase should be sticking to its more compelling projects like a first class camera body and not a warmed over AFD VIII, nice LCDs, leaf shutter lenses, etc.
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I personally don't think it good for photographers or the Leaf employees in the long run, but it is good to keep the brand alive but...
1) Less competition is only good for the manufactures not the buyer.
2) Its makes no financial sense for a business to run 2 products and software divisions
3) One less camera on the market. (AFI)
4) 2 sets of reps?? I can't imagine having PhaseOne and Leaf reps, twice the payroll?
My speculation PhaseOne will merge both the backs and software into 1 brand. I am sure PhaseOne got a good deal, since its such a small business with high overhead.
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I am sure Phase had to pay very little in cash for Leaf's assets(they were the only bidder and Phase has always been a bottom fisher), so this move really amounts to a very cheap, "destroy the competition" move.
Howard,
It was much worse than that.
What Reichmann omitted out of that story, was that the Paulsen guy, and Yair, and those Phase guys were all on a plane to yet another one of those paid four week ski holidays, back in March. The GPS on the plane malfunctioned, and the plane got diverted to the Appalachian Trail for forced landing. But there was no place to land, so they started thowing other passengers off the plane, to lighten the load. The plane finally landed in Buenos Aires, Argentina, for some unknown reason.
Yair, Paulsen, and those Phase guys went out for drinks, once they landed, and they ended up with some woman named Maria, and they all got hammered. By 3am, they had a poker game going, back at the hotel, and Yair tried to salvage what was left of Leaf by bluffing on a poker hand. The Paulsen guy winked at the Phase guys, and they started upping the ante, and no one would call. At some point, they realized that whoever lost the hand was going to end up owning Leaf, so Paulsen and those Phase guys started bluffing each other, hoping not to end up owning Leaf (and Leaf Capture). Paulsen ended up with four aces, and those Phase guys only had a pair of deuces, so as they say in those books, the Rest is History.
Paulsen slipped a fifty in Yair's back pocket as they were leaving the hotel, because Paulsen knew he had just narrowly escaped a very bad deal...
The two Phase guys woke up in a ditch, the next morning, with that Maria woman, and the Phase guys rubbed their eyes, tried to find their toothbrush, looked at each other, and said, "WTF have we done..?
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So let me get this straight: Phase now has three backs and still only one camera, and this the one which needs to be improved the most? They are doing something wrong. Especially since if Kodak or Dalsa are open to making 6x6 chips, the Hy6 would have been the camera to have. I am guessing that Phase offered $10 for the rights to the Hy6, and Jenoptik uttered a few choice words in reponse.
If everything goes well, Phase backs will soon have larger, brighter screens. If everything doesn't go well, Leaf backs will soon have smaller, dimmer screens.
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Howard,
It was much worse than that.
What Reichmann omitted out of that story, was that the Paulsen guy, and Yair, and those Phase guys were all on a plane to yet another one of those paid four week ski holidays, back in March. The GPS on the plane malfunctioned, and the plane got diverted to the Appalachian Trail for forced landing. But there was no place to land, so they started thowing other passengers off the plane, to lighten the load. The plane finally landed in Buenos Aires, Argentina, for some unknown reason.
Yair, Paulsen, and those Phase guys went out for drinks, once they landed, and they ended up with some woman named Maria, and they all got hammered. By 3am, they had a poker game going, back at the hotel, and Yair tried to salvage what was left of Leaf by bluffing on a poker hand. The Paulsen guy winked at the Phase guys, and they started upping the ante, and no one would call. At some point, they realized that whoever lost the hand was going to end up owning Leaf, so Paulsen and those Phase guys started bluffing each other, hoping not to end up owning Leaf (and Leaf Capture). Paulsen ended up with four aces, and those Phase guys only had a pair of deuces, so as they say in those books, the Rest is History.
Paulsen slipped a fifty in Yair's back pocket as they were leaving the hotel, because Paulsen knew he had just narrowly escaped a very bad deal...
The two Phase guys woke up in a ditch, the next morning, with that Maria woman, and the Phase guys rubbed their eyes, tried to find their toothbrush, looked at each other, and said, "WTF have we done..?
You crack me up LOL
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I doubt very much that most people at Leaf will keep their jobs. The only reason for Phase to do this was to buy a little market share, but as soon as they can they will be selling Phase backs with Leaf branding. Nothing else makes financial sense.
So let me get this straight: Phase now has three backs and still only one camera, and this the one which needs to be improved the most?
Bingo! If the Hy6 were to be discontinued, there would only be one active leaf shutter platform left (Hasselblad) and no camera left with a proper WLF. Phase and Leaf users will be stuck with the worst available camera body. That's the real tragedy. Phase was crazy to buy Leaf and not the Hy6! In fact, that would be such an obvious move that it makes me think the Hy6 is not for sale and must have some other future planned. We'll soon know.
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Phase was crazy to buy Leaf and not the Hy6!
I don't think that Phase could buy the Hy6 together with Leaf... as the Hy6 is not owned by Leaf...
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Bingo! If the Hy6 were to be discontinued, there would only be one active leaf shutter platform left (Hasselblad) and no camera left with a proper WLF. Phase and Leaf users will be stuck with the worst available camera body. That's the real tragedy. Phase was crazy to buy Leaf and not the Hy6! In fact, that would be such an obvious move that it makes me think the Hy6 is not for sale and must have some other future planned. We'll soon know.
In other words, Phase bought Leaf so that they could discontinue the large-screen backs, so that people would stop pointing at them and ask Phase why they can't have a big screen like that, and they killed the Hy6 so that AFDIII owners wouldn't point at it and ask Phase why they couldn't have a camera like that with focus bracketing, a waist-level finder, and a huge, bright viewfinder. Wow, a couple more moves like that and everyone will just buy Phase. Or a Canon.
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I don't think that Phase could buy the Hy6 together with Leaf... as the Hy6 is not owned by Leaf...
I never wrote or implied that the Hy6 was connected to Leaf. I wrote that Phase was crazy to buy Leaf rather than the Hy6. They need a better camera body much more than another back manufacturer, as Carsten already pointed out.
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And to think nobody offered to buy my F3 and D200 so I could buy a D700. Miserable sods.
Rob C
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WOW!
I am very surprised by this event. We are going to the PMA show in Sydney today & the dealers are there ( Phase, Leaf & Hasselblad ). Almost all the work we have done with MFD has been with Leaf & just last week we did a flash test with the Phase 65+. I am very glad that Leaf will continue as they are an excellent company. There SW is very good & since all the Leaf backs use Dalsa chips C1 should be able to support Leaf backs. There is a lot of knowledge & R&D @ Leaf. This marriage would make sense with the MAC group who sell Mamiya ( now Phase ). The Hy6 is a very nice camera & its future is still unknown. Off to the show.
Cheers Denis
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I never wrote or implied that the Hy6 was connected to Leaf. I wrote that Phase was crazy to buy Leaf rather than the Hy6. They need a better camera body much more than another back manufacturer, as Carsten already pointed out.
This could be a reflection on the current status of F & H more than a statement on the "insanity" of Phase One.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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From http://www.dpreview.com/news/0906/09062503phaseoneleaf.asp (http://www.dpreview.com/news/0906/09062503phaseoneleaf.asp)
"The [AFi-II] camera system will not be supported from Day One," says Henrik O. Håkonsson President and CEO of Phase One, which already owns a controlling stake in camera and lens maker Mamiya Digital Imaging: "We have said to our Leaf colleagues that we will evaluate the future of this camera system but we are not currently convinced of its potential."
That's pretty blunt I'd say...
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From http://www.dpreview.com/news/0906/09062503phaseoneleaf.asp (http://www.dpreview.com/news/0906/09062503phaseoneleaf.asp)
"The [AFi-II] camera system will not be supported from Day One," says Henrik O. Håkonsson President and CEO of Phase One, which already owns a controlling stake in camera and lens maker Mamiya Digital Imaging: "We have said to our Leaf colleagues that we will evaluate the future of this camera system but we are not currently convinced of its potential."
That's pretty blunt I'd say...
It is blunt, but not convincing. I am not sure how one sees potential in the AFDIII but not the Hy6. Anyway, matter of taste. I think the price was just too high for him, and he is trying to soften up Jenoptik.
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It is blunt, but not convincing. I am not sure how one sees potential in the AFDIII but not the Hy6. Anyway, matter of taste. I think the price was just too high for him, and he is trying to soften up Jenoptik.
The question of a price being too high is not necessarily one of stinginess, but could rather be one of economic prudence and fiscal rationality.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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The question of a price being too high is not necessarily one of stinginess, but could rather be one of economic prudence and fiscal rationality.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
Yes, I viewed that quote as businessmanspeak for Phase saying to Sinar, "you know, we really don't need your Hy6s and aren't too excited about it as a platform, but we will buy the whole Hy6 project from you if the price is right, and if not, you can pound sand with it." Alternative: "If you let us put Phase backs on the AFIs, we will continue to buy them from F&H/Sinar and help keep the project afloat." Seriously possible result is Phase winds up buying Sinar's mfdb line and the Hy6 also. I just hope Hasselblad keeps its eye on the ball(i.e., building Canon and Nikon-like features and value into its products) and doesn't jump into this morass.
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The question of a price being too high is not necessarily one of stinginess, but could rather be one of economic prudence and fiscal rationality.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
Steve,
Let's face it, you know the answer to this . . . your a salesperson.
This is about sales and places to sell cameras.
leaf had a dealer network, phase had a dealer network, now phase has a larger dealer network.
Sure, they'll probably use some of Leaf's technology, same with Kodak and may even sell and license some, but in the end of the day, not taking the AFI means the only Leaf product Phase has to sell is just a direct competitor that will mount on a Mamiya body.
What Phase really gains is probably an instant entry into MAC and some of the reps like Yair in Europe.
Phase needs to sell backs and this gives them more opportunity to sell Phase backs.
So unless somebody does something different there are now only two real players in Medium Format; Hasselblad and Phase.
Who knows who the winner will be, but I'll bet it's Hasselblad and if they we're really on top of it the front page of the Hasselblad site should read "The Only Complete Line of Autofocus Leaf Shutter lenses In the World".
I'd put the word leaf in 8 pt. type.
BC
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From http://www.dpreview.com/news/0906/09062503phaseoneleaf.asp (http://www.dpreview.com/news/0906/09062503phaseoneleaf.asp)
"The [AFi-II] camera system will not be supported from Day One," says Henrik O. Håkonsson President and CEO of Phase One, which already owns a controlling stake in camera and lens maker Mamiya Digital Imaging: "We have said to our Leaf colleagues that we will evaluate the future of this camera system but we are not currently convinced of its potential."
That's pretty blunt I'd say...
Oh Dear!-- I thought I saw a light with an alternative body to the gawdawful "Phamiya" on the horizon.
Guess we are stuck with that POS for a while yet.
Oh the Pain!
DesW
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Oh Dear!-- I thought I saw a light with an alternative body to the gawdawful "Phamiya" on the horizon.
Guess we are stuck with that POS for a while yet.
Oh the Pain!
DesW
They might be just avoiding the issue until the future of the Hy6 is secured. What else can they say right now?
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So, what's the new name going to be?
Pheaf
Lase
Phameaf
Lephamiya
Lease
???
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LEASE
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So, what's the new name going to be?
"InagaddaMamiya, baby..."
http://www.ironbutterfly.com/discography.php (http://www.ironbutterfly.com/discography.php)
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I just change my workhorse from leaf to phase.
phase back is not arrived yet.
It's very surprised for me.
What happen to used market price?
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Not sure why photographers should see this as being good news.
The logical consequence of this will be less options, and I wouldn't be optimistic in terms of this driving prices down.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Who knows who the winner will be, but I'll bet it's Hasselblad and if they we're really on top of it the front page of the Hasselblad site should read "The Only Complete Line of Autofocus Leaf Shutter lenses In the World".
Don't let the facts get in the way. Phase has the money to invest in phase and take over leaf distribution and sales channel because they are selling more backs at a substantial profit. They are aggressively putting themselves in a position to compete against Hasselblad with a complete platform.
A pretty gutsy move considering the state of the economy with no sign it will be getting better thanks to world-wide political stupidity.
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I think it is time that I can say I told them so, It is interesting now that PhaseOne, is quoted as thinking that the Afi/Hy6 not currently convinced of its potential. and is exactly what I said here in this forum. I am going to copy here a PM that I got then --of course I will keep the name of the person who sent it for myself, and must say have nothing against him, but want to use it as an example of how difficult it is to state ones opinion honestly here or anywhere is--
[blockquote]Leonardo,
I'm just curious - why do you have an axe to grind for the Rollei Hy6 stuff? You don't shoot it. Why do you have to continue to try and knock it down? Do you do it just for fun? Do you work for Hasselblad? Your posts about Rollei are often uninformed and ignorant. Don't forget that your posts affect peoples opinions and if you don't really know something then don't post it.
We had some nice chats a few years back before you moved to Spain or wherever it was, but since then I've been wondering what you could be thinking.
[/blockquote]
The title was What's your beef?, Mar 8 2009
I don't think I ever go personal with my opinions regarding this system or people like Thierry that did a heroic job -and continues to do it on his own--. Now the AFi/Hy6 may have taken down Leaf on their fall, so, it is big event in the small MF world, some could see it coming from far, others don't even want to see it now. To say a storm is coming doesn't mean we a) want the strom have any part in the makings of the storm c) do not sympathize with future victims of the storm or have fun saying that particular storm is coming...
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It is funny what Phase is saying about the Hy 6 camera. Quite frankly I cannot stand the Mamiya Phase camera. I tried it, love the HY 6, the problem cost. Phase only stands to make money from what they own to say they cannot see the potential really means they do not own it so they can make more money with the Mamiya body. They may have seemed to be a more open system then Hasselbald but reality is they, Phase, are not. The losers are all of us that want medium format backs to come down in price. I hope I am wrong but doubt it. I remember what James Russell said about voigtlander lenses on a M8 somethign about driving a porsche with a chevy engine, the same to me about shooting medium format with a phase mamiya. David Seelig
www.davidseelig.com
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Phase needs to sell backs and this gives them more opportunity to sell Phase backs.
So unless somebody does something different there are now only two real players in Medium Format; Hasselblad and Phase.
Who knows who the winner will be, but I'll bet it's Hasselblad and if they we're really on top of it the front page of the Hasselblad site should read "The Only Complete Line of Autofocus Leaf Shutter lenses In the World".
BC
Phase bought into Leaf because Leaf makes a good product. Leaf has years of experience in working with Dalsa chips, a large LCD touchscreen, great color and innovative IP. Now, if photographers buy either Phase or Leaf backs, Phase wins. In these tough times, when DSLRs are getting packed with more pixels, you have to have a platform that is reasonably priced. The leaf shutter in Hasselblad lenses are useful for some photographers but it prices them so high that their system become way too expensive for the guy trying to make the leap to medium format. Try making a list of the most commonly used lenses of the two systems. at the end of the day, you will have a lot less money in your pocket is you bought Hasselblad.
I don't think Haselblad is the winner here.
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I'm I missing something?
But I think this announcement is not going to affect the functionality of my current Phase One back.
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I'm I missing something?
But I think this announcement is not going to affect the functionality of my current Phase One back.
With Phase and Leaf combining forces, the functionality of backs will not llikely change until the Phase/Leaf exchange of technology starts to work.
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no phase1 probably acquired leaf and paid for the famous film look
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I suspect that behind the scenes there has been a fairly desperate struggle for survival in a dwindling sales environment, and Leaf is the loser (same as looser.) We're really getting back to the film days -- the big shooter cameras were the RZ and the Hassy, and a bunch of somewhat smaller players in niches, like the Rolleis and the Big Pentax, Contax, etc. But the MF market wasn't all that big then, and it isn't now, and costs being what they are, I think we're going to wind up with two big players, and...
Leica? The new Leica now seems to me much LESS viable than formerly, because the disappearance of Leaf seems to confirm the weakness of the market. If sales are indeed weak, it would take a brave photographer to invest several tens of thousands of dollars in a new system, in a market which has slain all but two systems.
JC
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Leica? The new Leica now seems to me much LESS viable than formerly, because the disappearance of Leaf seems to confirm the weakness of the market. If sales are indeed weak, it would take a brave photographer to invest several tens of thousands of dollars in a new system, in a market which has slain all but two systems.
Leica has recently gone on the record saying that they estimate the market at 10000 units per year, of which they hope to break a two digit percentage. This seems reasonable to me, with an attractive, different platform which can steal away a little market share.
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I suspect that behind the scenes there has been a fairly desperate struggle for survival in a dwindling sales environment, and Leaf is the loser (same as looser.) We're really getting back to the film days -- the big shooter cameras were the RZ and the Hassy, and a bunch of somewhat smaller players in niches, like the Rolleis and the Big Pentax, Contax, etc. But the MF market wasn't all that big then, and it isn't now, and costs being what they are, I think we're going to wind up with two big players, and...
Leica? The new Leica now seems to me much LESS viable than formerly, because the disappearance of Leaf seems to confirm the weakness of the market. If sales are indeed weak, it would take a brave photographer to invest several tens of thousands of dollars in a new system, in a market which has slain all but two systems.
JC
You are right, the market for medium format is not what it used to be but I think it is a win/win situation for Phase and Leaf. Think of the money saved by Phase and Leaf not having to duplicate many of their services. I think the unfortunate part is the end of the AFi. It had some very cool innovations and great quality lenses. I wonder if it is dead or just in hibernation.
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It's all about business and making money, I would do the same if I were the Chief of Phase. F/H is no position to bargain ... they can be had in a yard sale.
It would be interesting to see how Phase is gonna play with market segmentation with two elite brands (Phase/Leaf) while using Mamiya to cater the mid-low end in the next step, the markets for low end MFDB and highend 35mm DSLR will soon converge.
The real big loser is Kodak in this drama, my guess is they'll quit from the image sensor business altogether pretty soon since their CEO has openly said they'll limit their investment in image sensor group and seek a partner (back in February this year).
Congratulations to Phase, Leaf and their employees.
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So, what's the new name going to be?
Pheaf
Lase
Phameaf
Lephamiya
Lease
???
PLEASE
-
PLEASE
Phleamiya.
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As one of the very few LL users of AFI, I unfortunately have to agree with P1 that AFI platform has no potential. I do not really want to go publicly in details about AFI faults but I would only say that the day I received AFI back to Rz body plates was a great, happy day for me.
I pack the AFI bodies and left them in storage for collectibles.
Andre
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This bit seems interesting:
The new entity will also enter into an intellectual property license with Eastman Kodak Company that is royalty bearing to Kodak.
I wonder how the idea of buying Kodak chips through Phase One would go over at Hasselblad. Now that would be funny.
Maybe there'd be another camera for Phase after all.
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Not sure why photographers should see this as being good news.
The logical consequence of this will be less options, and I wouldn't be optimistic in terms of this driving prices down.
@Bernard,
I also was surprised with Phase one but I'm very happy with it.
I think it was this or the loss of the Leaf system which in my opinion would not be a good thing.
I'm absolutly confinced that the Leaf file quality is the best on the market (although all brands are very close now a days) and combining this with Phase one will probably give the both companies an incredible boost in R&D and could very well put Phase One in a totally different market share than it is now.
In the end however one thing counts for me and that is that Leaf is not dissapearing.
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I do not really want to go publicly in details about AFI faults but I would only say that the day I received AFI back to Rz body plates was a great, happy day for me.
If you say that there is something wrong with the body, then I think you should also say why.
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If you say that there is something wrong with the body, then I think you should also say why.
I agree. I would really appreciate the feedback on the AFi body and its issues.
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Yes Andre,
it's time to spill the beans on the AFi.
Regards,
Willem.
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PLEASE
classic...
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I definitely read the news as good news since I was hoping that some deal would revive the Hy6 and maybe allow a path for a phase back to find its way onto the camera.
I never upgraded my 6008's to Hy6's because I was pretty happy with the camera as it was and the way I looked at it - the 6008 AF is at the final end of development while the Hy6 was just born. I don't doubt that there could be some bugs with the first version of the Hy6 if not just the color scheme - however take a look at the phase / mamiya AFD? What's that now 4th generation with the new Phase model? And still a lot of issues like sync speed and mirror vibration. What was the H1 like? and how much better is the H3II? How are the lenses compared to the Rollei system? Sure is nice to have all the leaf shutters ...
I really like the lenses with this system and hope that something will surface....
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As one of the very few LL users of AFI, I unfortunately have to agree with P1 that AFI platform has no potential. I do not really want to go publicly in details about AFI faults but I would only say that the day I received AFI back to Rz body plates was a great, happy day for me.
I pack the AFI bodies and left them in storage for collectibles.
Andre
Andre, I would also be interested why you think so.
I am quite happy with the Hy6 - the only real thing where I see room for improvement is the AF.
Other than that I really like the handling, specially the rotating sensor/ back is also a great plus IMO.
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resistance is futile, you will be assimilated
we are PHASE (B O R G )
MFDB market is too smaal
There can be only ONE
PHASE ONE
It showed to be the most realiable back and the best software
Hasselblad H users I know complain about many defects and poor support ...
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we better be ware, that FILM does not outlive MFDB's
while we all favour digital and MFDB's the market is so small and shrinking
that it is not impossible, it will disappear completely
in favour of DSLR's (99% does not care about the quality of MFDB's anyway)
So maybe, MF Film, will remain longer that MFDB
Another reason to keep your Blads and RZ's
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So, what's the new name going to be?
PLAYA (pronounced 'player')
I win.
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As someone about to write a check to purchase a P65+ to go along with a myriad of recently acquired RZ67 kit (albeit used) this news at first glance frankly scares the hell out of me given Phase One now controls Mamiya and Leaf. After some thought and a few fact checks though I basically came to the conjecture that Phase One had no other choice in both acquisitions.....
- Kodak purchased Creo ("Leaf") in 2005 for nearly $1B USD. Now on the brink of Chapter 11 they start peddling the Leaf team and products around to others. Now they're selling for an undisclosed <next to nothing> price (which we'll find out in time with their SEC filings) with basically a walkout by the Leaf team management.
- Leaf management team likely didn't like the other suitors e.g. Sony, Nikon, and Canon, giving them the leverage to organize a walkout.
- Along comes Phase One, reminded by Leaf management of what would happen if the Leaf team screwed off to one of the big boys (so now where will Sony, Nikon, or Canon get the technology to deprecate existing lines? or do they stick with FF 35mm equivalent lines and choke on their small mounts and optics?)
- Buckets of money and royalty agreements ensue - all happy that the MF digital world is safe from control by one of the bigger players. All 100 Phase One employees, 150 Mamiya employees, and 25 from Leaf team stay employed - for now. Kodak gets royalties from its IP moving forward and saves face as it best can with the shareholders. Phase One doesn't face competition so quickly from Sony, Nikon, and Canon. Everyone is happy about the business except the consumers and Sinar, who Phase One is determined to burden as the lone supporter of the AFI system in a good spirit of competitive non-competition. Adios to 6x6 digital.
- The Mamiya thing was certainly more friendly but got a bit odd in the end with Mamiya offering Leaf solutions, all the while outsourcing their own backs to Phase One in the end. Could a Leaf / Mamiya deal inked a year ago played a part in forcing Phase One's hand? Or perhaps simply a one night stand to force the wedding?
- Now we wind up with 3 different back solutions and a single platform in design if not branding. My guess in the end the P+ backs will win out with convergence in the coming year, along with the software converging. As for the platforms well I guess 645AFDIII/P645 isn't ideal but maybe the new "DF" is better than a Hassy? At least my RZ kit seems viable through it all, possibly with an upgrade path to a 6x7 sensor with huge touch LCD in 2-3 years?
- And --what if-- this spending spree combined with a slow market tumble Phase One as a whole down the tubes? Perhaps my nice shiny new P65+ will end up with the same fate as my Contax 645 and DCS Pro Back - with no support and no upgrade path?
Interesting times to buy a digital MF back - but then again if I were shopping for an Amercan car it'd have to be a Ford -)
--Brett
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Are you sure, Graham? What about:
PLAYAIR (pronounce also "player")
Thierry
PLAYA (pronounced 'player')
I win.
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Now Its a 2 player field? Looks like the Hy6 is gone? With Phase buying Leaf that is a bonus. Where Phase does make money is selling C1 SW to Canon & Nikon users @ $400 USD a pop.
Denis
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deleted
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or new company name:
Mamiya Leaf Phase
MALEAPHANT ...
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Voltman,
Your posting is so full of misinformation that I feel compelled to comment on at least a few of the points.
- Kodak purchased Creo ("Leaf") in 2005 for nearly $1B USD.
This is only partially true. Kodak bought Creo. Period. Leaf was a tiny appendage that they were hardly aware of. In fact I happened to be at the Kodak sensor division in Rochester NY for a meeting the day that the announcement was made, and after a coffee break that morning one of the executives came back in and said that he'd just learn that they'd bought Creo. When I commented that Leaf was a subsidiary of Creo everyone laughed at the fact that the top brass probably hadn't realized that they were buying a company that used Dalsa sensors.
- Leaf management team likely didn't like the other suitors e.g. Sony, Nikon, and Canon, giving them the leverage to organize a walkout.
Kodak has been trying to sell Leaf for a couple of years. If someone other than Phase One had come along you can rest assured that offers would have been entertained.
- Along comes Phase One, reminded by Leaf management of what would happen if the Leaf team screwed off to one of the big boys (so now where will Sony, Nikon, or Canon get the technology to deprecate existing lines? or do they stick with FF 35mm equivalent lines and choke on their small mounts and optics?)
Nonsense. Nothing more. No further comment needed.
- Buckets of money and royalty agreements ensue - all happy that the MF digital world is safe from control by one of the bigger players. All 100 Phase One employees, 150 Mamiya employees, and 25 from Leaf team stay employed - for now. Kodak gets royalties from its IP moving forward and saves face as it best can with the shareholders. Phase One doesn't face competition so quickly from Sony, Nikon, and Canon. Everyone is happy about the business except the consumers and Sinar, who Phase One is determined to burden as the lone supporter of the AFI system in a good spirit of competitive non-competition. Adios to 6x6 digital.
More rubbish. The AFi / Hy6 is going away because Franke and Heideke is in the equivalent of Chapter 11. There are other issues between them and Kodak / Leaf, but these are not yet public. Nothing that you have conjectured is even close to reality.
- The Mamiya thing was certainly more friendly but got a bit odd in the end with Mamiya offering Leaf solutions, all the while outsourcing their own backs to Phase One in the end. Could a Leaf / Mamiya deal inked a year ago played a part in forcing Phase One's hand? Or perhaps simply a one night stand to force the wedding?
Are you aware that the MAC group is the US distributor of both Leaf and Mamiya and that this is the reason for the bundling? This relationship exists nowhere else in the world other than the US. "Outsourcing"?!!
I know that web forums like this can be a free-for-all of opinion, misinformation and even disinformation, but at least a minimal level of verisimilitude is required here.
Michael
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And gentleman, what about Hasselblad? It is interesting to see how this developed and how quickly it will develop.
Brgds/K
Voltman,
Your posting is so full of misinformation that I feel compelled to comment on at least a few of the points.
- Kodak purchased Creo ("Leaf") in 2005 for nearly $1B USD.
This is only partially true. Kodak bought Creo. Period. Leaf was a tiny appendage that they were hardly aware of. In fact I happened to be at the Kodak sensor division in Rochester NY for a meeting the day that the announcement was made, and after a coffee break that morning one of the executives came back in and said that he'd just learn that they'd bought Creo. When I commented that Leaf was a subsidiary of Creo everyone laughed at the fact that the top brass probably hadn't realized that they were buying a company that used Dalsa sensors.
- Leaf management team likely didn't like the other suitors e.g. Sony, Nikon, and Canon, giving them the leverage to organize a walkout.
Kodak has been trying to sell Leaf for a couple of years. If someone other than Phase One had come along you can rest assured that offers would have been entertained.
- Along comes Phase One, reminded by Leaf management of what would happen if the Leaf team screwed off to one of the big boys (so now where will Sony, Nikon, or Canon get the technology to deprecate existing lines? or do they stick with FF 35mm equivalent lines and choke on their small mounts and optics?)
Nonsense. Nothing more. No further comment needed.
- Buckets of money and royalty agreements ensue - all happy that the MF digital world is safe from control by one of the bigger players. All 100 Phase One employees, 150 Mamiya employees, and 25 from Leaf team stay employed - for now. Kodak gets royalties from its IP moving forward and saves face as it best can with the shareholders. Phase One doesn't face competition so quickly from Sony, Nikon, and Canon. Everyone is happy about the business except the consumers and Sinar, who Phase One is determined to burden as the lone supporter of the AFI system in a good spirit of competitive non-competition. Adios to 6x6 digital.
More rubbish. The AFi / Hy6 is going away because Franke and Heideke is in the equivalent of Chapter 11. There are other issues between them and Kodak / Leaf, but these are not yet public. Nothing that you have conjectured is even close to reality.
- The Mamiya thing was certainly more friendly but got a bit odd in the end with Mamiya offering Leaf solutions, all the while outsourcing their own backs to Phase One in the end. Could a Leaf / Mamiya deal inked a year ago played a part in forcing Phase One's hand? Or perhaps simply a one night stand to force the wedding?
Are you aware that the MAC group is the US distributor of both Leaf and Mamiya and that this is the reason for the bundling? This relationship exists nowhere else in the world other than the US. "Outsourcing"?!!
I know that web forums like this can be a free-for-all of opinion, misinformation and even disinformation, but at least a minimal level of verisimilitude is required here.
Michael
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I pack the AFI bodies and left them in storage for collectibles.
I'll keep you in mind if I need another AFi body!
David
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This thing is kinda like an Agatha Christie mystery. It just makes you wonder, "What did Leaf own that justified that $19.95 price tag?"
You know that feeling, when you're kicking thru a dinosaur heap at an old camera store, and see Hasselblad 500C's for like $100, and you think "Wow, that's a good deal, I should buy that", so you do, and then you get it home, and you realize what you've got to do to actually get an image out of the thing, and you think "What was I thinking, buying this thing?". So you put it out in the back yard, and use it to hold the garden gate open, like a doorstop, when you're taking out the trash?
When Phase was in that back room at Leaf, and they were looking down at that same kinda pile, they MUST have come upon at least one jewel, to justify paying the lawyers and the whole mess of buying a company.
Sure wasn't the LCD, because a bigger bad LCD is still a bad LCD, in the end.
Wonder what that jewel was?
-
Michael:
Verisimilitude?
Respect.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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Watsamata Steve? Ain't ya got no skoolin?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verisimilitude (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verisimilitude)
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Voltman,
Your posting is so full of misinformation that I feel compelled to comment on at least a few of the points.
- Kodak purchased Creo ("Leaf") in 2005 for nearly $1B USD.
This is only partially true. Kodak bought Creo. Period. Leaf was a tiny appendage that they were hardly aware of. In fact I happened to be at the Kodak sensor division in Rochester NY for a meeting the day that the announcement was made, and after a coffee break that morning one of the executives came back in and said that he'd just learn that they'd bought Creo. When I commented that Leaf was a subsidiary of Creo everyone laughed at the fact that the top brass probably hadn't realized that they were buying a company that used Dalsa sensors.
- Leaf management team likely didn't like the other suitors e.g. Sony, Nikon, and Canon, giving them the leverage to organize a walkout.
Kodak has been trying to sell Leaf for a couple of years. If someone other than Phase One had come along you can rest assured that offers would have been entertained.
- Along comes Phase One, reminded by Leaf management of what would happen if the Leaf team screwed off to one of the big boys (so now where will Sony, Nikon, or Canon get the technology to deprecate existing lines? or do they stick with FF 35mm equivalent lines and choke on their small mounts and optics?)
Nonsense. Nothing more. No further comment needed.
- Buckets of money and royalty agreements ensue - all happy that the MF digital world is safe from control by one of the bigger players. All 100 Phase One employees, 150 Mamiya employees, and 25 from Leaf team stay employed - for now. Kodak gets royalties from its IP moving forward and saves face as it best can with the shareholders. Phase One doesn't face competition so quickly from Sony, Nikon, and Canon. Everyone is happy about the business except the consumers and Sinar, who Phase One is determined to burden as the lone supporter of the AFI system in a good spirit of competitive non-competition. Adios to 6x6 digital.
More rubbish. The AFi / Hy6 is going away because Franke and Heideke is in the equivalent of Chapter 11. There are other issues between them and Kodak / Leaf, but these are not yet public. Nothing that you have conjectured is even close to reality.
- The Mamiya thing was certainly more friendly but got a bit odd in the end with Mamiya offering Leaf solutions, all the while outsourcing their own backs to Phase One in the end. Could a Leaf / Mamiya deal inked a year ago played a part in forcing Phase One's hand? Or perhaps simply a one night stand to force the wedding?
Are you aware that the MAC group is the US distributor of both Leaf and Mamiya and that this is the reason for the bundling? This relationship exists nowhere else in the world other than the US. "Outsourcing"?!!
I know that web forums like this can be a free-for-all of opinion, misinformation and even disinformation, but at least a minimal level of verisimilitude is required here.
Michael
Michael,
I think you may have missed the first part of my post where I said "...I basically came to the conjecture ..." ?? -)
--Brett
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This thing is kinda like an Agatha Christie mystery. It just makes you wonder, "What did Leaf own that justified that $19.95 price tag?"
When Phase was in that back room at Leaf, and they were looking down at that same kinda pile, they MUST have come upon at least one jewel, to justify paying the lawyers and the whole mess of buying a company.
Sure wasn't the LCD, because a bigger bad LCD is still a bad LCD, in the end.
Wonder what that jewel was?
I asked this question of Phase's CEO when I interviewed him by phone yesterday and his answer was that Leaf is one of the oldest company's in the MF back business and has a considerable amount of IP that's worth having and melding with what Phase already has. In combination, their IP covers a lot of ground, and though there's obviously some overlap, there was considerable value at Leaf.
There are also people that are a tremendous asset. There just aren't that many highly experienced engineers in their field with state-of-the-art experience, such as those within Leaf and Phase. To add a few more along with the IP and a competent management staff, unfettered by a large corporation's neglect (my words, not his) is definitely worthwhile; especially for "$19.95".
Michael
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is definitely worthwhile; especially for "$19.95".
Michael
Leaf should have advertised on craig's list.
BC
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Ahhh... now I get it. This IS a remake of that other film.
Same plot: expensive electronic product with low volume, high development costs (hardware and software) and expensive sales model against large volume commodity product that is less capable but getting more powerful every day.
And this is the point in the film where DEC buys Apollo to compete with Sun. If I recall, everybody dies at the end.
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and no upgrade path?
what upgrade path? - it already is gone - if P1 is promising an upgrade path how can you trust them?
fleabay?!?
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So, what's the new name going to be?
Pheaf
Lase
Phameaf
Lephamiya
Lease
???
PHASE TWO. Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated.
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Can someone make an adapter Rollei-mount-to-Mamiya-645AND fully leaf shutter operational?? I am sure that there are a lot of frustrated photographers out there that have invested large amounts of resources in Rollei optics that do not want to see them going to paper weight duties.
Or for the Hasselblad mount. I don't know if it is technically possible, and if Hasselblad or Mamiya are interested in the idea since it would mean competition to their own lines of lenses.
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Phase bought into Leaf because Leaf makes a good product. Leaf has years of experience in working with Dalsa chips, a large LCD touchscreen, great color and innovative IP. Now, if photographers buy either Phase or Leaf backs, Phase wins. In these tough times, when DSLRs are getting packed with more pixels, you have to have a platform that is reasonably priced. The leaf shutter in Hasselblad lenses are useful for some photographers but it prices them so high that their system become way too expensive for the guy trying to make the leap to medium format. Try making a list of the most commonly used lenses of the two systems. at the end of the day, you will have a lot less money in your pocket is you bought Hasselblad.
I don't think Haselblad is the winner here.
hasselblad was the first to drop their prices. And the used lenses are pretty much a steal if you know what you want and stick to it. great deals can be had on ebay or KEH
ultimately Phase One ends up having gotten a competitor's IP and product line...but they still have a crappy camera.
Makes me glad I got that H3d for a steal..a camera system that actually works out of the box, with software that connects out of the box, with leaf shutters.
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Well there are always used 6x6 SLR systems that could be fitted with digital backs. So what if they don't have all of the bells and whistles of an H3?
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I was LoLoud when I saw that photo Alan.
This translation from the German by some robot is also funny ...
A look back: When the Hy6 to photokina 2006 was presented, she wanted to appear to any medium-format manufacturers have. And there was great confusion about this painting. Jenoptik). Leica Sinar wanted to take over (what else but not worked, the company finally landed at Jenoptik). in turn, initially available exclusively at Sinar booth presented surfaced during the fair in several places with different types of designations: Hy6 Rolleiflex, Sinar Hy6, Leaf Afi. It seemed the camera system of the future. Mamiya und auch Phase One . Mamiya and Phase One was fairly stupid since then: a future without a camera system and also sold, with the other backs, but without cameras.. And Hasselblad began its system to foreign backs off. The signs were good for a new, modern and open medium format system.
The - apparent - losers of the past are now better off: in particular Phase One makes the medium format wide.
The once great Rollei is filleted and parts verspeist. There remain the Rollei GmbH and its buildings in the Salzdahlumer road, which are rented out, and their patents and trademark license rights, which can be sold.
And there remain Franke & Heidecke with largely empty-handed, and the question of what to do next.
(thoMas) (Thomas) http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Bei-Frank...ern-die-Lichter (http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Bei-Franke-Heidecke-flackern-die-Lichter)
I think that what they want they probably want to say is that at the time when Hasselblad closed their system "Hasselblad began its system to foreign backs off. .." Phase One was left out of that best seller platform, so there was the need for a Hy6 ...
Well there are always used 6x6 SLR systems that could be fitted with digital backs. So what if they don't have all of the bells and whistles of an H3?
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Now that so much competence is assembled at Phase maybe someone will strike the idea to write the new firmwares for the P45, P30 and P21 so that we can tether to Windows Vista.
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hasselblad was the first to drop their prices. And the used lenses are pretty much a steal if you know what you want and stick to it. great deals can be had on ebay or KEH
ultimately Phase One ends up having gotten a competitor's IP and product line...but they still have a crappy camera.
Makes me glad I got that H3d for a steal..a camera system that actually works out of the box, with software that connects out of the box, with leaf shutters.
There is little comparison between Blad lenses and Mamiya when it comes to price whether they are new or used. Unless you are talking about older C lenses for the V system with the gummy shutters.
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YYZ ? = Yaya?
There is little comparison between Blad lenses and Mamiya when it comes to price whether they are new or used. Unless you are talking about older C lenses for the V system with the gummy shutters.
-
YYZ ? = Yaya?
nono!
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I bought three lenses for my Mamiya this year.
B&H sells the Mamiya lens for $1498.00
B&H sells the Hasselblad lens $3440.00
I used to be a Hasselblad shooter. They make a good camera. I switched to Mamiya and really enjoy shooting with it. Everyone has their preferences, mine are quality cameras with reasonably priced lenses. The leaf shutter is not important to me anymore so Mamiya does the trick for me. I assume the extra cost in the Hasselblad lenses is because of the leaf shutter. If you need it, there is little choice. I'd rather take the money saved and buy more gear.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller...it=Submit+Query (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=search&A=search&Q=&ci=0&sb=ps&sq=desc&sortDrop=Relevance&ac=&bsi=&bhs=t&shs=hasselblad+35mm&ci=12666&basicSubmit=Submit+Query)
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller...it=Submit+Query (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=search&A=search&Q=&ci=0&sb=ps&sq=desc&sortDrop=Relevance&ac=&bsi=&bhs=t&shs=hasselblad+35mm&ci=12666&basicSubmit=Submit+Query)
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Hello,
I have been assured that Leaf AFi owners will continue to receive service & support from Kodak-Leaf in the event that the platform is permanently discontinued. This is the worst case scenario. There seem to be other possibilities as well, which would seem to be better news for those of us who like and use the Rollei/Hy6/AFi platform and/or the zeiss/schneider/rollei lenses. Like everything else today, it is a complex situation and we'll just have to wait and see.
I personally have been using the Rollei 6008 for many years with an assortment of those magnificent lenses and recently upgraded to the AFi-ii 7 which accepts all those lenses. I liked the Rollei body and I think the AFi is a significant improvement, it has something intangible that for me makes it one of those rare pieces of equipment that is a natural extension to my eye and hand, without even considering the digital advantages. I have been using it extensively recently and have no regrets - my main concern: I only want it to last as I do not really need another platform and the AFi-ii 7 digital back is already an improvement over both medium and large format film. I do miss the 6x6 square format - but I'm managing with what I've got and can still use the film if I need it.
I feel lucky to have all this great equipment and want to make good use of it for many, many years to come. I cannot afford to replace lenses and why would I want to? Optics don't get better than this, so replacement would be a waste of money. The platform is great so here's hoping it's not a dinosaur - and if it is, that it will be possible to maintain it for a decade or more. It looks to me like it's made to last that long.
Neil
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No winner in this as I see it, a bit of assurance for Leaf owners. It looks more like another loop in the MF downward spiral to extinction. If you are not into a MF system at the moment it does not encourage you spill a load of money on a MF system. I can only think this will shrink the market even more. Phase has not bought this because they want it more a question of the survival of digital MF.
Kevin.
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But how about those Rollei lenses? Leaf can provide service? Unlikely.
Do not know if Sinar can play alone with the Hy6 system.
you could try here for getting Rollei lenses serviced: www.paepke-fototechnik.de
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you could try here for getting Rollei lenses serviced: www.paepke-fototechnik.de
maybe also at Wiese-Fototechnik - http://www.wiese-fototechnik.de/ (http://www.wiese-fototechnik.de/)
He's official service partner of F&H incl. Rollei 6008AF and Hy6. I guess he can service lenses as well.
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No winner in this as I see it, a bit of assurance for Leaf owners. It looks more like another loop in the MF downward spiral to extinction. If you are not into a MF system at the moment it does not encourage you spill a load of money on a MF system. I can only think this will shrink the market even more. Phase has not bought this because they want it more a question of the survival of digital MF.
Kevin.
I also saw this. One danger of consolidation is that you now have just a few big players. Either one of two things will happen(well, maybe both):
1 - Since this is a small niche, and the economy *will* get worse in a few years due to the financial idiocy of credit, most of the world trying to print its way out of this, outsourcing, and a dozen other factors that all are going to likely come rolling up on everyone all at once... What happens if Phase dies? You've just taken half of the DB market and killed it. Oops.
2 - You're now one single target for Canon or Nikon, or even Sigma or Fuji to come in and crush with a DB sensor or the equivalent in a 35mm body. All of those companies are massive compared to Phase/Leaf/etc. They can quite literally fart out more money in R&D than Phase has to run the entire company, most likely. If they have a mind to, that is. Imagine a 40MP Nikon or Canon. It would take them a couple of years at this point. It certainly will happen within the next decade. Their normal competition between themselves will result in an "oops - what was that we just ran over?" scenario.
$1 a pixel? When the competition is putting out identical results for 1/10th of the cost... Like it or not, aside from hobbyists, real production and photography work is about the cost. When a $5K camera does the job that a $50K one did, there's no question that people who have a business to run in a major depression(looks to be shaping up to be one - sigh) will go with the better supported and less expensive option.
Phase did this for one reason. They believe that by growing large enough that they can survive the upcoming storm. The simple fact is that the next generation of DSLRs will crush them anyways.
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I wonder how far off Canon & Nikon are from un-interpolated color (e.g. Foveon-like).
Each has published white papers on the subject.
I also saw this. One danger of consolidation is that you now have just a few big players. Either one of two things will happen(well, maybe both):
1 - Since this is a small niche, and the economy *will* get worse in a few years due to the financial idiocy of credit, most of the world trying to print its way out of this, outsourcing, and a dozen other factors that all are going to likely come rolling up on everyone all at once... What happens if Phase dies? You've just taken half of the DB market and killed it. Oops.
2 - You're now one single target for Canon or Nikon, or even Sigma or Fuji to come in and crush with a DB sensor or the equivalent in a 35mm body. All of those companies are massive compared to Phase/Leaf/etc. They can quite literally fart out more money in R&D than Phase has to run the entire company, most likely. If they have a mind to, that is. Imagine a 40MP Nikon or Canon. It would take them a couple of years at this point. It certainly will happen within the next decade. Their normal competition between themselves will result in an "oops - what was that we just ran over?" scenario.
$1 a pixel? When the competition is putting out identical results for 1/10th of the cost... Like it or not, aside from hobbyists, real production and photography work is about the cost. When a $5K camera does the job that a $50K one did, there's no question that people who have a business to run in a major depression(looks to be shaping up to be one - sigh) will go with the better supported and less expensive option.
Phase did this for one reason. They believe that by growing large enough that they can survive the upcoming storm. The simple fact is that the next generation of DSLRs will crush them anyways.
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If F&H is dead, who they can get those lens and body spare parts?
When they run out of spare parts... I don't know. Basically they built and rebuilt cameras and do restauration of cameras... as long as it is something mechanical I think they could rebuilt some parts... depends on what it is and certainly on the price.
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Hi,
The issue I'm thinking about is that MFDB makers need to have MF-bodies to put their MFDBs on. Regarding the Hy 6 I was never really optimistic. Rollei has failed but the production was bought out by their employees. I guess that everyone had some sympathy for 'FH' but their marketplace was not really rosy. One of the reason is that MFDB-s went 645 while the Hy6 stayed 6x6. It has some advantages but the system is really built for film and not for sensors.
The problem, in my humble opinion, is that its's probably the MFDB side where the money is, but to be able to sell the MFDBs the vendors also need camera kits, including both camera bodies and lenses. The lens designs probably need some upgrades to keep up with ever grooving sensor resolution. Hasselblad really has taken the consequences, designing their own lenses. (The optics are built by Fujinon as far as I understand, but both lens construction and final assembly is done in Gothenburg as far as I know. If you compare available MTF data I think there can be very little doubt that essentially all new HC lenses are vastly superior to the old Zeiss designs).
The question on my mind if Phase/Mamya/Leaf have the resources to keep up in the competition? I hope they do, and have not seen any development indicating that they can't, but the jury is probably still out on the issue.
The idea that DSLR makers (Canon, Nikon, Sony and others) would go into the MFDB business does not make sense to me. There is probably some intellectual property that may be of interest, but these are fundamentally different businesses, IMHO.
There are of course quite a few MFDB users who put their MFDBs on different specially built 'technical cameras' like the Alpa, Linhof and Silvestri. These users really benefit from the MFDB business but I guess that their numbers are too little to really make a difference in the medium format market. I hope that MF will prosper, but the market needs a critical mass to stay alive and prosper, hopefully it's there!
Best regards
Erik Kaffehr
I asked this question of Phase's CEO when I interviewed him by phone yesterday and his answer was that Leaf is one of the oldest company's in the MF back business and has a considerable amount of IP that's worth having and melding with what Phase already has. In combination, their IP covers a lot of ground, and though there's obviously some overlap, there was considerable value at Leaf.
There are also people that are a tremendous asset. There just aren't that many highly experienced engineers in their field with state-of-the-art experience, such as those within Leaf and Phase. To add a few more along with the IP and a competent management staff, unfettered by a large corporation's neglect (my words, not his) is definitely worthwhile; especially for "$19.95".
Michael
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actually I just hope Canon or Nikon foray into the MF business and drags their competitors along.
then we'll see faster development and progress.
like how Apple went into the smartphone business and suddenly, a surge of new, more powerful phones sprang up quickly.
before that the pace of innovation in the cellphone business was a joke...
Hi,
The issue I'm thinking about is that MFDB makers need to have MF-bodies to put their MFDBs on. Regarding the Hy 6 I was never really optimistic. Rollei has failed but the production was bought out by their employees. I guess that everyone had some sympathy for 'FH' but their marketplace was not really rosy. One of the reason is that MFDB-s went 645 while the Hy6 stayed 6x6. It has some advantages but the system is really built for film and not for sensors.
The problem, in my humble opinion, is that its's probably the MFDB side where the money is, but to be able to sell the MFDBs the vendors also need camera kits, including both camera bodies and lenses. The lens designs probably need some upgrades to keep up with ever grooving sensor resolution. Hasselblad really has taken the consequences, designing their own lenses. (The optics are built by Fujinon as far as I understand, but both lens construction and final assembly is done in Gothenburg as far as I know. If you compare available MTF data I think there can be very little doubt that essentially all new HC lenses are vastly superior to the old Zeiss designs).
The question on my mind if Phase/Mamya/Leaf have the resources to keep up in the competition? I hope they do, and have not seen any development indicating that they can't, but the jury is probably still out on the issue.
The idea that DSLR makers (Canon, Nikon, Sony and others) would go into the MFDB business does not make sense to me. There is probably some intellectual property that may be of interest, but these are fundamentally different businesses, IMHO.
There are of course quite a few MFDB users who put their MFDBs on different specially built 'technical cameras' like the Alpa, Linhof and Silvestri. These users really benefit from the MFDB business but I guess that their numbers are too little to really make a difference in the medium format market. I hope that MF will prosper, but the market needs a critical mass to stay alive and prosper, hopefully it's there!
Best regards
Erik Kaffehr
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Why should Canon, Nikon or Sony try to get into the MFDB Game? The quantities are way to low to be of interest for them. Companies are in the business for profits... not to make artists happy.
This is complete bullshit and wishful thinking.
Canon and Nikon (Sony even more so) have a completely different business model than MFDB companies.
It's quantities not quality (in the sense of best possible pictures).
They are not trying to give you THE BEST EQUIPMENT POSSIBLE. They give you whatever they can get away with at the moment. Incremental upgrades. Give you a reason to upgrade every 2 years. Because the DSLR's are kinda affordable the manufacturers don't need to provide upgrade paths - the customer simply unloads old equipment to pop and mom on Ebay. Eventually the equipment is defective and thrown away. Product lifecycle starts again.
With MFDB it's different. These are significant investments so you can't just unload it simply on Ebay after two years. That's why they offered upgrade paths so they could keep their overpriced strategy running. But obviously the user base is going south so the business model stopped working. Now suddenly Hasselblad is lowering prices to broaden the user base. But honestly... it might be too late for that. The difference in quality between DSLR's and MFDB's is getting smaller every 6 months and with features it's a waste of time to even start comparing. Customers are so much more demanding, productions need to be cheaper, more pictures delivered. Semi-pros and interns at ad agencies eat away low-end work. Margins for commercial work are getting smaller because of all the additional competition.
So in the end what counts for the professional photographer is to get as fast as possible to a pleasing picture without 10 hours of retouching and RAW converter fiddling.
Some quick simple COMPLETELY HYPOTHETICAL math:
What's better. Selling 3.3 Million Nikon DSLRs and making 100 $ profit per piece or
selling 5'000 MFDB's and making 5000$ profit a piece?
It would be 330 Million $ compared to 25 Million $.
I'm sure someone could get accurate figures from the Investor Relations sections.
http://nikon.com/about/ir/ir_library/result/index.htm (http://nikon.com/about/ir/ir_library/result/index.htm)
But the point is: If only a couple thousand MFDB shooters are getting pissed with the MFDB game and DSLR's are suddenly good enough for them it's byebye MFDB. Half the users is not half the profit. Economy of scale comes into play. If you buy in smaller quantities the price is higher.
How big is the ENTIRE MFDB market today? Maybe 10,000 pieces a year?
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maybe also at Wiese-Fototechnik - http://www.wiese-fototechnik.de/ (http://www.wiese-fototechnik.de/)
He's official service partner of F&H incl. Rollei 6008AF and Hy6. I guess he can service lenses as well.
i can not find rollei on the wiese site.
wiese seems to have a soft spot for kiev 6x6 etc though.
in any way, the Hy6 would have needed a stronger dealer network.
as a side note, alpa of switzerland seems to rely on a weak network too, at least in germany:
www.monochrom.com , www.photouniversal.de , www.greiner-photo.de
the 6x6 format was not at all a disadvantage of the Hy6 (or the 6oo8): in combination with the rotating adapter /sensor it allows to use the waist level finder.
the same is true for the RZ of course.
i do not see a problem with the wide angles. there always was a 40 mm angulon wide enough for most needs.
to go wider for land- or city scape, there was a seamless lens adaption to alpa.
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i can not find rollei on the wiese site.
I think you can't find anything on that site as it is so ugly designed you can't look at it :-)
I remember this message:
german: http://photoscala.de/Artikel/FH-in-HH (http://photoscala.de/Artikel/FH-in-HH)
google translation: http://tinyurl.com/n94hyx (http://tinyurl.com/n94hyx)
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I think you can't find anything on that site as it is so ugly designed you can't look at it :-)
this looks like a serious problem of the F+H/Rollei distributor network, no?
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this looks like a serious problem of the F+H/Rollei distributor network, no?
maybe
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So, what's the new name going to be?
Pheaf
Lase
Phameaf
Lephamiya
Lease
???
Lease One
/FlashDB
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Lease One
my idea was "leave 1" but yours is much better!
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in any way, the Hy6 would have needed a stronger dealer network.
I don't think that is the case. MFDB's and cameras should be more trouble-free and Hasselblad, PhaseOne, etc could simply ship directly to the end-user skipping the middle-man.
I know many dealer reps will disagree and tout their horn about how good their support is. But honestly, in the end the manufacturer is responsible for support and the dealer is not doing much more than forwarding your box to the manufacturer and possibly handing you a camera while the camera is "in the shop". If the software has a programming bug or the back an error what can the dealer do about it? Witchcraft? Reprogram the software?
How can a dealer know a camera better than a photographer that is working with them every day all day long? This is riddiculous.
If manufacturers posted meaningful test-images, example images, required software, training-videos and tutorials (how to use their products best), etc freely available on their webpage why would you need a dealer? To answer questions? Yeah sure.
Give users the email and telephone number of the support team. If you want Thierry, Yaya and their mates spend less time on the phone give users an online userforum. They will help and offer advice to each other like they do here on Luminous Landscape or Dpreview, etc.
No photographer is buying his MFDB because they have a great dealer next door. They see an ad or review in a magazine. A friend that uses that back. A backstage video on youtube. Whatever.
The medium format companies that haven't died yet are starting to open up (freely available software, compatible files, forums, etc) and start to offer cheaper deals. Things are happening that should have happened 5 years ago. I wonder how long it will take MFDB manufacturers to skip the middle-man (dealers) to stay competitive. After all MFDB is a VIP business. It costs a fortune to get in and stay in and you want to talk DIRECTLY to the guy that can give you the best answer. You don't want to talk to a sales person.
Selling cameras is no longer a camera business. It's more like computer business. You need to keep the wheel spinning. Selling a back every five years is not going to work. You need customers comming back. Hasselblad got far more aggressive with pricing. But if Hasselblad really wanted to kill Phase One the only thing they'd need to do is copy DELL. Good products for the lowest possible price shipped directly to your door.
PhaseOne could try a different strategy. Instead of the Value added bullshit they could offer a "yearly upgrade" program. You agree to pay 10k$ every year or 850$ monthly and get a (free) upgrade every year. That way Phase would get a more predictable income flow, better economy of scale, no old backs in the market (that could keep anyone from not buying a new back). Many professional photographers want to have always the newest and greatest but not at 40'000$ a pop. Huge resolution as a sale proposition is dead. Retouching a 39 Megapixel file with a couple layers in Photoshop is immediately a 1-2 GB file. I don't know who would want to have a single 100 Megapixel file consume 10 GB. To print a double page spread? How can you keep photographers come back and buy a new back? At some point even the most demanding photographer is satisfied. A 10k$ a year business investment however is like an insurance policy. You'll never deal with old equipment that could stop working because it's too old.
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...
The medium format companies that haven't died yet are starting to open up (freely available software, compatible files, forums, etc) and start to offer cheaper deals. Things are happening that should have happened 5 years ago. .... After all MFDB is a VIP business. It costs a fortune to get in and stay in and you want to talk DIRECTLY to the guy that can give you the best answer. You don't want to talk to a sales person.
PhaseOne could try a different strategy. Instead of the Value added bullshit they could offer a "yearly upgrade" program. You agree to pay 10k$ every year or 850$ monthly and get a (free) upgrade every year. That way Phase would get a more predictable income flow, better economy of scale, no old backs in the market (that could keep anyone from not buying a new back). Many professional photographers want to have always the newest and greatest but not at 40'000$ a pop. Huge resolution as a sale proposition is dead. Retouching a 39 Megapixel file with a couple layers in Photoshop is immediately a 1-2 GB file. I don't know who would want to have a single 100 Megapixel file consume 10 GB. To print a double page spread? How can you keep photographers come back and buy a new back? At some point even the most demanding photographer is satisfied. A 10k$ a year business investment however is like an insurance policy. You'll never deal with old equipment that could stop working because it's too old.
Very 'smart' comment on how to rid market of used backs - provide upgrade path for a fixed cost pa. - this woudl generate a revenue stream that is a much better business model.
Also I wish that companies continue to improve their sites and deliver more technical information - again an excellent point.
Finally - transparency in pricing would seal the deal.
None of this is difficult to put in place - except I hear all the time that 'pro' users need immediate camera replacement in case of failure...I cant comment on this - as I hav enever had a failure in Leaf/hasselblad/Phase One or Sinar backs I have used. maybe I have just been lucky?
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my idea was "leave 1" but yours is much better!
Well then, it might be "Please One"
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PhaseOne could try a different strategy. Instead of the Value added bullshit they could offer a "yearly upgrade" program. You agree to pay 10k$ every year or 850$ monthly and get a (free) upgrade every year.
Strange idea. If you decided for, say, a P45+ due to long exposure would you be happy about the P65+ as an upgrade?
Too, I don't think that most of the photographers like to upgrade yearly and maybe have fight with firmware and software flaws every year.
Too, the product circle is too short.
And why should customers pay in advance for a product they don't know yet at all? Really strange.
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Strange idea. If you decided for, say, a P45+ due to long exposure would you be happy about the P65+ as an upgrade?
Too, I don't think that most of the photographers like to upgrade yearly and maybe have fight with firmware and software flaws every year.
Too, the product circle is too short.
And why should customers pay in advance for a product they don't know yet at all? Really strange.
Thomas: It was an IDEA how to keep MFDB's alive. Let's not nit-pick details. Possibly an upgrade every two years would work just as well. You can consider the P45+ a milked cow. Maybe they can squeeze out some more drops of milk but people that wanted one got one by now. Question is how long Kodak will stay in the MFDB sensor business and what quantities MFDB makers need to buy from them to keep the production at Kodak going.
I hope you're not basing your entire camera purchase on long-exposure and neglecting all other features/specs. I don't really understand the need for extremely long exposure anyway. If sensitivity is high and noise low you can work around it. Stacking exposures, focus stacking, noise filtering plugins and so on. The P45+ long exposure feature seems more like a freak accident than a feature requirement. Better LCD's would have been a feature requirement.
I wrote a little rant on Apr 29th. Interesting how close I came.
I have absolutely no clue about business numbers and all this is wild ass guessing but my ignorant market perception is that F&H will go completely belly up, Leaf will not have their shared Rollei/Sinar/Leaf Hy6/AFI platform any longer. Instead of crawling to Mamiya they'll just go belly up because Leaf AFI photographers will be pissed and invested. Kodak will stop throwing money at Leaf. Steve Hendrix changed to the PhaseOne camp. Calumet stopped selling Leaf. First signs?
Sinar is small enough to get out of the MFDB business altogether as indicated by the colaboration with Leaf producing some of their backs. Also Thierry that helped many people here at LL was laid off by Sinar. And PhaseOne suddenly switching to Dalsa sensors would indicate that Kodak could stop producing MFDB sensors or at least further development.
So now it's PhaseMiya and Hasselblad remaining. Slowly Canon, Nikon and Leica S2 type cameras will become better in many areas where MFDB's had their biggest strengths and they will cost 10 times less with all the added convinience, working workflows, great multipoint AF, improved colors/whitebalance, etc.
Some more wild ass guesses. I expect if things continue the way they do now we may see another generation of PhaseOne and Hasselblad backs based on Dalsa sensors sometime 2011. After that the user base will be (so extremely) happy with what they have they will simply stop upgrading. The long-exposure people will still have their P45+, the pixelfreaks a 60+ megapixel back to fill their harddisks, the good enough people will have sold their P45+ for 12k$ and bought three D700x or 5DMK3 instead and people that love innovation will have moved to RED.com
2012 Hasselblad and Phase One will file for chapter 11 or MASSIVELY reduce their staff. Professional high-end photographers and hobbyists may continue using their MFDB's but suddenly Apples and Microsofts new operating system is all 64bit with no legacy 32bit mode. Suddenly your 32 bit Capture One v5 or Phocus 2 will only run on slow antique computers.
Check this out. Have you ever seen such rich colors and natural, filmlike (and the same time lifelike) skin from a MFDB (or DSLR)? Red is the future. FF35, 6x45 or 6x17.
Incredible Red Example Video - DSMC (http://red.cachefly.net/redreel/RedReel_h264_720.mov)
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From British Journal Of Photography
(quote)
Title: Leaf AFi system faces uncertain future after Phase One tie-up
Feature: Daily News
Date: 30 June 2009
Leaf's only medium format camera system faces an uncertain future after Phase One announced it would acquire Leaf's assets. BJP talks to Phase One's CEO Henrik O Hakonsson
Last week, Phase One confirmed rumours of an impending wave of consolidation in the medium format camera market by agreeing to form a new company, Leaf Imaging Ltd, which will purchase Leaf’s assets and enter into an intellectual property licence with Eastman Kodak Company.
Phase One manufactures digital camera backs and has one medium format camera system – the Phase One 645 – using technology from Mamiya. The latter is majority-owned by Phase One. Leaf produces the Aptus digital back and the AFi camera system.
However, in an exclusive interview with BJP, Henrik O Håkonsson, president and CEO at Phase One says that the new partnership could spell the end of the AFi system. ‘The Leaf AFi is a camera system that is currently on hold,’ he tells BJP. ‘We have to determine if it is commercially viable and we are still not convinced by it. The new company – Leaf Imaging Ltd – has the rights for the Leaf AFi but we are not going to produce it.’
The future of the Leaf AFi system had already been put into question after it was revealed in March that German manu-facturer Franke & Heidecke was forced to enter into admin-istration. Franke & Heidecke owns and develops new products for the legendary Rolleiflex twin-lens camera system, but it also produces a 6x6 format camera body for both Leaf and Sinar – the AFi and the Hy6 respectively (BJP, 18 March).
‘The Leaf AFi is still an interesting system,’ says Philippe Lefebvre, the sales and marketing director of Kodak in Europe. ‘However, it’s future will mostly depend on Franke & Heidecke’s situation, which should be resolved one way or another at the end of July.’
Reassurance
Peartree, the UK’s key Leaf provider, has moved to reassure consumers that the AFi system is still a popular system. ‘Currently the future of the AFi is directly linked to the situation with Franke & Heidecke and all we know at this time is there are a number suitors seeking to purchase a controlling interest in the company,’ Andy Quiney of Peartree Photo tells BJP. ‘However, we must stress that the AFi has been an extremely popular system with strong sales since its launch in the UK over a year ago. It’s also proved to be our most popular rental solution namely the AFi II 10, which shoots 56 million pixels, maximising the full use of the fantastic Schneider AF lenses.’
However, Quiney adds: ‘One of our specialist areas has been technical cameras and their integration with digital backs and to this end, we will be adding a number of additional demo and rental units from a variety of specialists over the coming months.’
If Franke & Heidecke goes bankrupt, Phase One could still decide to continue producing the AFi system through Mamiya, which it has owned since last April (BJP, 01 April).
In the meantime, Phase One is putting the final touches to its deal to purchase Leaf’s assets through the newly-created Leaf Imaging. ‘We’ve tried for a long time to put Phase One and Leaf together,’ says Håkonsson. ‘There are very good product and technology synergies between the two companies, and there are a lot of very good people on both teams.’
The deal, according to Håkonsson, will allow Phase One to get its hand on some ‘very talented’ developers. ‘We are very interested in the talented people on the research and development team at Leaf. It’s very difficult to find people able to ensure the highest image quality in the medium format camera market.’
As part of the deal, Leaf digital camera equipment will continue to be developed in Israel and marketed under the Leaf brand. Dov Kalinski, currently general manager of Leaf, will take on the leading position at the new company Leaf Imaging. Kalinski didn’t return calls for comment as BJP went to press.
Greater choice
The tie-up will allow Phase One to gain greater shares of the medium format camera market, which counts Hasselblad and Sinar as its main competitors. However, as a result of the takeover, the company doesn’t plan to phase out Leaf’s other product – the Aptus II digital camera back. ‘There is a strong following for Leaf’s camera back. We would rather offer customers greater choice than just one cheaper product,’ says Håkonsson.’
Similarly, Phase One will not change Leaf’s distributions agreements in countries such as France, the US, Japan and the UK, where Peartree is the principal distributor and service provider. However, in smaller markets, Phase One’s sales team will take over Leaf’s operations.
Source:
© Incisive Media Ltd. 2009
Incisive Media Limited, Haymarket House, 28-29 Haymarket, London SW1Y 4RX, is a company registered in the United Kingdom with company registration number 04038503
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From British Journal Of Photography
(quote)
Title: Leaf AFi system faces uncertain future after Phase One tie-up
Feature: Daily News
Date: 30 June 2009
...If Franke & Heidecke goes bankrupt, Phase One could still decide to continue producing the AFi system through Mamiya, which it has owned since last April (BJP, 01 April).....
????? Mamiya Hy6??
How? April First??? Not again...
Yevgeny
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But existing Leaf owners may be serviced by Kodak... As an A75 owner I find this rather ominous as it suggests I may not have a future upgrade route.
This was posted on the Leaf User Forum
Hello,
As you have probably heard, a new company – ‘Leaf Imaging’, is purchasing from Kodak specific assets of the Leaf business. In collaboration with Phase One, Leaf Imaging will continue to develop backs and workflow in Israel and market them under the Leaf brand. I strongly believe that Leaf customers will soon benefit from the close integration opportunity, and many synergies between Leaf and Phase One.
Please note that Kodak has committed to fully support Leaf customers through its distribution network and provide all the necessary services that Leaf photographers require. To ensure proper service and support to the install base, a service team will remain in Kodak, and will provide the high level of support expected from Leaf by its customers.
Ziv Argov
Leaf
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Who at Leaf still have a job?
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http://www.leafamerica.com/ (http://www.leafamerica.com/)
(Leaf DB now on a Mamiya body on opening page)
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http://www.leafamerica.com/ (http://www.leafamerica.com/)
(Leaf DB now on a Mamiya body)
honestly... this looks so sad.
And Mamiya as manufacturer of the Hy6?
I can see it. First the pHyse6 with prism finder (glued, so unremovable).
And secondly the Phase Low 6 without any finder at all, just a screen - RSS will provide an adpter plate to mount a Schneider loupe as finder.
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and a subsidary question to this mathematic:
how many employees are involved from design, through manufacturing/production, to marketing/sales and distribution?
Thierry
What's better. Selling 3.3 Million Nikon DSLRs and making 100 $ profit per piece or
selling 5'000 MFDB's and making 5000$ profit a piece?
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As follow up...
Confirmed: all employees of F&H to be dismissed.
German: http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Bei-Frank...die-Lichter-aus (http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Bei-Franke-Heidecke-gehen-die-Lichter-aus)
Google translation: http://tinyurl.com/mxb6v8 (http://tinyurl.com/mxb6v8)
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Suddenly your 32 bit Capture One v5 or Phocus 2 will only run on slow antique computers.
I enjoyed the script, I thought however you overloooked the dng format "who needs software" direction sinar showed with its eSprit 65 LV,
in the timescale you mention I am sure larger sensor size will also use the same concepts
Edwin
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But existing Leaf owners may be serviced by Kodak... As an A75 owner I find this rather ominous as it suggests I may not have a future upgrade route.
This was posted on the Leaf User Forum
Has Phase One stated on the record whether the deal with Leaf includes an assumption of Leaf's remaining warranty obligations for Leaf backs? Or, are the Leaf customers left to seek warranty service from Kodak(in which case, they may want to check in with owners of Kodak backs to see how well that worked wnen Kodak stopped making those backs but continued the servicing).
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At the Leaf web site there is a gallery of photographers who use Leaf backs. I think it would be in Phase One's interest to contact all these photographers & get a PO back in their hands. Frank & myself would really like this , I am just kidding but it would be in their interest to contact to all these photographers because they have a very high standard of work . It now looks like a 2 players left in the market. Which is PHASE/leaf & Hasselblad. And the most recent news about F&H is not promising for the future of the Hy6.
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F&H is only the manufacture of the afi/hy6. If there was a market Jenoptik could work out a deal to have someone else manufacture the camera. The problem seems to be, the market is to small. Since Phase One now killed the Leaf involvement with the camera, I don't think Sinar could support enough units.
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I enjoyed the script, I thought however you overloooked the dng format "who needs software" direction sinar showed with its eSprit 65 LV,
in the timescale you mention I am sure larger sensor size will also use the same concepts
Edwin
Some time ago I attended a Hasselblad workshop. Their message was to avoid DNG as the Hassy native RAW format would offer much better colors. I'm not sure how true that is or was back then. But clearly DNG has not been adopted as widely as one would expect as this is a concern that some do have now... others will face the music in 3-5 years when current computers and software might no longer be able to open their old files.
That's not so far fetched btw as was clearly demonstrated with the Apple goes INTEL CPU issue that popped up suddenly without a previous warning and Photoshop CS4 being offered 64bit for Windows but not for Macs.
Sometimes I like to use NIK Color Efex filters. Pitty that it only works on 32 bit Photoshop but not within my 64bit Photoshop. Well people will say that 64bit PS CS4 also includes 32bit PS CS4 and that is true. But reopening 1-2 GB files and the wait for no good reason is annoying. With the 32 bit memory limitation opening such large files can take a couple minutes. It would be much worse if it just didn't work though.
Let's look at a different angle... Hardware. Suddenly computers will not offer Firewire anymore. How will you tether when your current computer breaks?
Some people will have a rude awakening.
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F&H is only the manufacture of the afi/hy6. If there was a market Jenoptik could work out a deal to have someone else manufacture the camera. The problem seems to be, the market is to small. Since Phase One now killed the Leaf involvement with the camera, I don't think Sinar could support enough units.
Could be but perhaps all 5 of us with a pile of rollei 6000 lenses will now buy Sinar Hy6 and eSpirit backs - perhaps demand admittedly low but stays the same and Sinar wins? Actually their new backs with DNG out are pretty nice. The development costs are mostly already spent/sunk so to keep building cameras can't be that bad. Actually a new F&H owner who didn't have to shoulder the unspecified debt from earlier might do okay even with low volumes.
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and a subsidary question to this mathematic:
how many employees are involved from design, through manufacturing/production, to marketing/sales and distribution?
Thierry
Thierry, I'm sure you could offer some interesting numbers in regard to market size.
I would expect Phase One having 150 Mamiya employees on staff, about 100 of their own and now 25 Leaf staff. Then some outsourced PR folks to write specsheets for vaporware :-)
How good was my guess?
Assuming average staff costs 100k$ per year that would make around 27,5 million$ for staff. Add to this facilities, offices, workplaces (computers, working benches, etc), tooling, power, licensing fees, and then all the stuff and material they purchase from other manufacturers like sensors, LCD's, integrated circuit chips (IC's), firewire ports, Compact flash interfaces, etc.
I'd say this clearly shows Phase One's intention in regards to Leaf. 25 people can not continue to maintain and develop independant product lines.
What Phase bought was Leafs user base (market share), possibly some right to intellectual property and the possibility to license some other intellectual property from Kodak. Do they care for Leaf or Leaf users? No way. They care to make/keep Phase One successful in these difficult economic times.
No businessman is buying a failed business without an agenda.
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I don't think it's sad that the leaf website now shows a mamiya camera with a Leaf back.
Instead I think it more than proves that Leaf is indeed fully continueing.
Why hang on to a system that does not excist anymore and use an old website.
Don't get me wrong I would love the AFi to be continued, I for one like the camera a lot (after getting used to it) but reality is that it isn't happening now, so why keep it on the site.
At the moment Leaf is "again" a manufactorer totally concentrating on backs and those can be fitted on many cameras, so it's not a sad day it's a leaf leaf hurray day
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If Phase One had a decent camera body and lenses which made me smile I woudl still be shooting with teh P45+. After seeing the way the Schneiders 'draw' I was hooked on the Hy6 and gladly switched with a guy who wanted the P45+ my Phamiya and and Phase back for his Hy6 and 75LV. Looks liek a dumb decision now - but hey - the camera still works and the back still works and the lenses are just fine...
I will take Phase One seriously when they show me a camerawith a viewfinder that is 3/4 as good as my Hy6 or H system. I mean no offence here - Phase One was in deep doodoo land without a camera platform - so they did what they did. if the Hy6 platform goes - it wont help them much in the end - because whilst the back and software is excellent - the camera platform is at best second rate. i dont really care what anyone else thinks about the issue and I know I might get jumped on for declaring such heresy and profanity.
As for Leaf I dont know why they didnt merge with Sinar - a marriage made in heaven - but it certainly bodes bad news for Sinar...
I have totally lost interest in the shenanigans ( death throes via a thousand cuts) re MFD world anyway. @ 39 megapixels with blad and 33 with Sinar I have all the megapixels I need to shoot snaps with the SLR bodies and make a pic with my Alpa. If Sinar survive I will pick an artec and three lenses and thats it..ther eis no more left to explore in this crazy MF land - it is game over..red rover.
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Jeeeesh, maybe Michael should change the name again from "Digital Backs & Large Sensor Photography", to the Doom & Gloom section.
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I still would not rule out a new system based on the RZ67Pro series.
In my opinion still one of the best MF cameras, but the size but the handling and lack of AF is a problem for today on location.
However some changes to the system and add AF and you have a wonderful system I think.
It would be a new camera I realise this (to add AF) but it's not impossible I think.
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I still would not rule out a new system based on the RZ67Pro series.
... However some changes to the system and add AF and you have a wonderful system I think.
The good news is that the RZ67 system does focusing in the body with a bellows, so a body with AF bellows would add AF to all the existing lenses.
But I see no sign that medium format back and sensor makers have any interest in making sensors too large to work with the ever more dominant 645 format systems.
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I still would not rule out a new system based on the RZ67Pro series.
In my opinion still one of the best MF cameras, but the size but the handling and lack of AF is a problem for today on location.
However some changes to the system and add AF and you have a wonderful system I think.
It would be a new camera I realise this (to add AF) but it's not impossible I think.
My money's on Bronica. I still would not rule them out either- resurrect the company, add autofocus to the SQ, enter a strategic alliance with Sinar to replace the Hy6, and Bob's your uncle. I'm under an NDA on all this though, so please don't spread it around. I may have said too much already...
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I still would not rule out a new system based on the RZ67Pro series.
there seem to be new RZ lenses on sale in europe.
i have the impression, the system is not in production anymore.
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YYZ ? = Yaya?
I presume it is someone in Toronto, maybe even a Rush fan.
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there seem to be new RZ lenses on sale in europe.
i have the impression, the system is not in production anymore.
I think this is true, certainly in Europe. The body and some of the lenses did not meet the ROHS (no lead content) and I suppose it would prove too expensive to re-engineer. Certainly the distributor in the UK is showing considerably less stock items on it's pricelist.
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Let's look at a different angle... Hardware. Suddenly computers will not offer Firewire anymore. How will you tether when your current computer breaks?
I think this is a great example of how in the first several years of mainstream computing the backwards compatibility of hardware/file-formats/software was a major issue, but how in the last several generations this has been largely alleviated.
The Phase One LightPhase raw format (released in 1998) can be opened in the (free/no-activation-required) current version of Capture One 4. Since Capture One is a popular solution for Leica, Canon, Nikon, as well as Phase One users I would consider it a pretty safe bet moving forward. The fact that Photoshop, Lightroom, Irrident Raw Developer, and Raw Photo Processor can also open Phase raw files natively further contribute to it's future robustness.
SCSI and IDE were invented in 1986 and you can still buy new drives in these interfaces and there are numerous solutions (e.g. external enclosures) to use them. I will put big money on the fact that you'll be able to buy a firewire card interface with ease for the next 10 years and with effort for the next 20. They will come as they do now in the form of slide-in-cards for towers and insert-cards for laptops.
Plus the technical requirements for tethering a specific camera won't somehow jump over the next several years, so in the absolute worst-case-scenario you'd be able to use the same 2009 Mac Pro or MacBookPro to tether only 10 years from now as you can today. Especially with Macs (since the total number of models are so small relative to all the models of PC made) you can find an exact replacement in good condition at a reasonable price on short notice.
I'm not saying we should turn a blind eye to these issues. It's just I think this issue is over-hyped because early photographers got burned big time in the earlier days of computing when the churn-and-burn was much more severe. With the advent of virtualization (hardware, software, and even operating systems) and the lessons of early computing the world of obsolescence (though still real) is much less than it was.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
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I think this is a great example of how in the first several years of mainstream computing the backwards compatibility of hardware/file-formats/software was a major issue, but how in the last several generations this has been largely alleviated.
Doug,
I respectfully don't think any professional photographer, or maybe the new term is "imaging professional", (just kidding on that one . . . I hope), needs to worry about firewire connection in the next few years, because the new port of choice will probably be hdmi to go to a 20" lcd monitor, from their motion slash still camera.
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....mp;#entry294986 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=35932&st=0&gopid=294986&#entry294986)
JR
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I don't think it's sad that the leaf website now shows a mamiya camera with a Leaf back.
Instead I think it more than proves that Leaf is indeed fully continueing.
Why hang on to a system that does not excist anymore and use an old website.
Don't get me wrong I would love the AFi to be continued, I for one like the camera a lot (after getting used to it) but reality is that it isn't happening now, so why keep it on the site.
At the moment Leaf is "again" a manufactorer totally concentrating on backs and those can be fitted on many cameras, so it's not a sad day it's a leaf leaf hurray day
Frank, you are right. It's just sad to see such a nice camera to disappear. A MF camera without removable finder is somewhat strange to me. Don't know if I would have ever bought an Hy6. But at least it's nice to know that there is something when my Contax' bite in the dust. A prism only Mamiya would never turn me on - either way how great the other specs are.
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Frank, you are right. It's just sad to see such a nice camera to disappear. A MF camera without removable finder is somewhat strange to me. Don't know if I would have ever bought an Hy6. But at least it's nice to know that there is something when my Contax' bite in the dust. A prism only Mamiya would never turn me on - either way how great the other specs are.
True,
I also love a WLF and Prism as an option, that's why I choose the RZ.
However I'm more than happy with the RZ.
For the studio it works like a dream (I prefer MF to be honest), for outside and the quick work I like a prism because I don't have to think from left to right.
But I agree I would LOVE a camera like the AFi again.
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The idea that DSLR makers (Canon, Nikon, Sony and others) would go into the MFDB business does not make sense to me. There is probably some intellectual property that may be of interest, but these are fundamentally different businesses, IMHO.
The thing is, they won't.
They have to out-do each other, like they do with cellphones and computers and so on. 25MP won't be enough, so they'll move to ditch Bayer patterns(big money here - the DB makers can't R&D this sort of tech) and other innovations, or just cram 35-40MP in a FF sensor. Do you honestly think that the 1dsMK5 or Mk6 when it comes out in a decade or so won't effectively obliterate the DB segment? I think it'll happen well before then, in fact. Just because all of the DSLR makers are competing with each other to be ever higher resolution and ever-higher image quality.
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When you compare 35D to MFD they are different & both have there advantage. We are big Canon users more so than MFD at the moment. We just did a shoot with the P65+ about two weeks ago & the file quality was the best I have ever seen! We have used both the Aptus 22 & 33, the 65+ is even better. The chip is very close to FF ( within a few mils ) plus shooting into C1 4.8 is the best tethered SW we have used. Acquiring Leaf was a good move as they know color especially with skin tones.
Denis
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Hi,
Well, same physics apply to MFDBs and DSLRs. I'd think that today's sensor are pretty good so a revolution in light collection capability cannot really be expected.
The other issue is that present DSLR technology seems to be a stretch for lens designers. Especially Canon seems to have problems producing really good wide angles. It is well possible to design very high quality lenses, the Nikon 14-24/2.8 is a proof of that, and so is the Zeiss ZF 21/2.8.
There is now way around the old thumb of rule that bigger is better, but harder to use. Smaller will always be more economical.
The reason for "harder to use" is mostly that Depth of Field decreases with size. So the highest quality achievable is higher but within a smaller range of focus. So large format must be very good for repros ;-)
Best regards
Erik
The thing is, they won't.
They have to out-do each other, like they do with cellphones and computers and so on. 25MP won't be enough, so they'll move to ditch Bayer patterns(big money here - the DB makers can't R&D this sort of tech) and other innovations, or just cram 35-40MP in a FF sensor. Do you honestly think that the 1dsMK5 or Mk6 when it comes out in a decade or so won't effectively obliterate the DB segment? I think it'll happen well before then, in fact. Just because all of the DSLR makers are competing with each other to be ever higher resolution and ever-higher image quality.
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Well of course lenses are the biggest single problem, and always will be. I think with the older 6-12MP DSLRs of a few years back, crap optics could suffice pretty easily. But with 25MP, well, second rate optics are very noticeable. That's one good thing about MF - the lenses might be limited and pricey, but there's rarely a clunker to be found.
But there's nothing to keep a DSLR from having equally good optics, at least in theory. And to push towards 40MP in the resolution wars, Nikon and the others might just be forced to produce MF quality optics.
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Hi,
If you check out MTF charts it's quite obvious that 135 lenses are better than MF lenses in absolute terms (with a few exceptions). MF manufacturers also push limits, Hasselblad is now designing their own lenses in house, for instance.
Olympus makes one of the best lens series, but having one fourth of the area of 135 stresses design.
Canon produces excellent telephotos, where they seem to suffer is the wide angle end of the game. DSLRs are often used with zooms which are harder to make than fixed focals but the Nikon 14-24/2.8 seems to be an excellent example that excellence can be achieved even in ultra wide angle zooms.
There is an important limitation to pixel size, diffraction limit resolution to something like 5 microns at reasonable apertures. So once we go below five microns we get into diminishing returns, even with excellent lenses. But there will always be some advantages in having more pixels:
1) Better interpolation will be possible
2) Need for optical low-pass filte (AA-filter) will be reduced
The final result is that a 65 MPIxel MFDB will yield sharper images than a 65 MPixel DSLR (135/FX) at any reasonable aperture. One possible exception is if you are using one of the lenses which achieve top performance around f/2.8 or f/4, but then only within a razor thin plane of focus.
One issue with MFDBs is tolerances, Joseph Holmes published some very sobering articles about his experience with sample variations on MFDBs and MF-lenses.
Best regards
Erik Kaffehr
Well of course lenses are the biggest single problem, and always will be. I think with the older 6-12MP DSLRs of a few years back, crap optics could suffice pretty easily. But with 25MP, well, second rate optics are very noticeable. That's one good thing about MF - the lenses might be limited and pricey, but there's rarely a clunker to be found.
But there's nothing to keep a DSLR from having equally good optics, at least in theory. And to push towards 40MP in the resolution wars, Nikon and the others might just be forced to produce MF quality optics.
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25MP won't be enough, so they'll move to ditch Bayer patterns(big money here - the DB makers can't R&D this sort of tech) and other innovations, or just cram 35-40MP in a FF sensor. Do you honestly think that the 1dsMK5 or Mk6 when it comes out in a decade or so won't effectively obliterate the DB segment?
DB makers do not make nor research sensors; Dalsa and Kodak does.
High ISO is not my interest, image quality is, thus I use DB. Hopefully MPs & high ISOs are not next steps for Dalsa and Kodak, but REAL 645 sensor size and even better image qualities will be.
I am current venturing in large format using DB. MFDB and large format are different tools than DSLRs. It was funny, the other day I was test shooting a digital adapter on my Shen-Hao here in Shanghai and a guy with DSLR around his neck walked up and asked me: "Is that a camera?" It is complete different tools yes, but yes... both are cameras...
Anders
P.S. I can add that my cheap off Ebay old Rodenstock 150mm 5.6 Sironar-N is not quite as sharp as my sharpest Mamiya (28mm) but well up on pair or even more than my other Mamiyas!
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Hi,
- DB makers do not make nor research sensors; Dalsa and Kodak does.
Quite true, but there is more to digiatl photography than sensor technology.
----
- I am current venturing in large format using DB. MFDB and large format are different tools than DSLRs. It was funny, the other day I was test shooting a digital adapter on my Shen-Hao here in Shanghai and a guy with DSLR around his neck walked up and asked me: "Is that a camera?" It is complete different tools yes, but yes... both are cameras...
Well, the person behind the camera does also matter, a lot!
Best regards
Erik
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DB makers do not make nor research sensors; Dalsa and Kodak does.
Traditionally true. However, Phase One holds the patent on Sensor+ which is a technology that requires both sensor hardware, digital back firmware, and computer software to work end-to-end.
It's not entirely infeasible that with only two major digital back producers that the digital back makers could become the major determiners of what technologies are researched.
After all if you are a car engine manufacturer and you only have two clients you probably would listen to them very carefully about what veins of research and development you should pursue.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
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Traditionally true. However, Phase One holds the patent on Sensor+ which is a technology that requires both sensor hardware, digital back firmware, and computer software to work end-to-end.
I thought that Sensor+ was just pixel binning to get higher ISO? This has been around for a while in practice.
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I thought that Sensor+ was just pixel binning to get higher ISO? This has been around for a while in practice.
The concept has been around for a while. This specific implementation/methodology is much better than anything else I've seen.
http://www.phaseone.com/apsis/160409Sensorplus.pdf (http://www.phaseone.com/apsis/160409Sensorplus.pdf)
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
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I thought that Sensor+ was just pixel binning to get higher ISO? This has been around for a while in practice.
The unique element of pixel binning with Sensor Plus technology is that while resolution is reduced and sensitivity increased, the user still experiences coverage of the same area of the sensor, ie; the entire sensor, not a reduced area of the sensor. Also, because we implemented the process before the A/D conversion, we eliminated the issue of exponential noise to signal ratio that has traditionally been the downfall in terms of image quality.
The link Doug posted is a good explanation.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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The unique element of pixel binning with Sensor Plus technology is that while resolution is reduced and sensitivity increased, the user still experiences coverage of the same area of the sensor, ie; the entire sensor, not a reduced area of the sensor. Also, because we implemented the process before the A/D conversion, we eliminated the issue of exponential noise to signal ratio that has traditionally been the downfall in terms of image quality.
The latter is a good point, although I am not sure how often it would have been an issue. As for the former, I am not sure which pixel binning implementations you refer to which didn't use the whole sensor.
I recall reading a series of articles about how to use multiple images and Photoshop to achieve higher resolution (stitching), greater coverage (panoramas), greater dynamic range (HDR), lower noise (pixel binning), and so on. There is a lot more software out there now to support the various workflows, of course, but without wanting to criticize the development of Sensor+, I find it hard to imagine that this is a do-or-don't feature for anyone. It would make life easier for a few people, but simply downressing a 60MP to 15MP image in software would probably get you 95% of the way there. The rest is very incremental.
Honestly, and I am not pointing at Phase One only here, the advances in medium format digital in the last several years have been so minimal, mostly focused on higher MP counts, slight increments in convenience, and higher ISO performance. The whole field has been relatively stagnant for quite some time, and I don't find it surprising that the general tendency is downwards. The Leica S2 is about the first really interesting camera in MF for quite some time (and the arTec a bit too), and I think that this may be the first camera in 10 years which has the potential to grow the field, rather than just staving off the shrinking. The combination of 35mm handling, size and weight, and MF quality has the potential to change how high-end fashion studios work. Hopefully the software falls into place too, and the service end works out.
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I love this post by gwhitf:
That's why I don't fully understand Phase One getting so chummy with Mamiya -- it's like some Supermodel hitting on that Steve Forty-Year-Old-Virgin guy. Phase has such a sterling reputation, and then they choose Sammy The Schlub to go to the Ball with. Does not make sense, in terms of branding. But I guess when Sammy is the only girl left in the bar, you just do a couple of shots of Jack, grit your teeth, reach for the paper bag, straighten your collar, and then try out your best Pick Up line to get her in the car with you. The bar's about the close and there's no one else left in the room.
I will be very sad if the Hy6/AFi doesn't continue.
The upcoming AFD3n with vertical grip looks to me a kludge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kludge).
It won't surprise me if the cost is similar, while the AFi is real performance gear IMHO.
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I love this post by gwhitf:
I will be very sad if the Hy6/AFi doesn't continue.
The upcoming AFD3n with vertical grip looks to me a kludge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kludge).
It won't surprise me if the cost is similar, while the AFi is real performance gear IMHO.
An updated RZ would do the trick, rather than the AFd series. Until its new from the ground up, (maybe the DF will be?) the entire Mamiya/Phase AFd enterprise is a kludge. Great back, good enough camera.
I like my RZ/Leaf 54s combo. It really is fantastic.
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Title: Franke & Heidecke: Leaf confirms AFi camera on hold
Feature: Daily News
Date: 6 July 2009
Reacting to the news of Franke & Heidecke's closure, Leaf has confirmed to BJP that its camera system - the Leaf AFi - is now on hold and won't be sold by the new company - Leaf Imaging - formed by Phase One
Taking the medium format camera market by storm, the news that the German manufacturer Franke & Heidecke was to close before September could spell the end of the Leaf AFi camera system developed in Israel.
BJP can now confirm that the system is now on hold. Ziv Argov, the head of sales and marketing for Leaf Imaging - a company created by Phase One and former managers at Leaf - tells BJP that while it has the rights for the Leaf AFi, it 'is not planning to manufacture it. With the complex situation in Germany, the Leaf AFi is currently on hold.'
He adds: 'Leaf Imaging will not be selling the AFi on day one of operations. We have to determine its viability. We are seriously interested in participating with others in making the system commercially available. Obviously, this will require one more partner with production capabilities, including lenses, shutters, etc.'
Last week, in a wide-ranging interview with BJP, Henrik O Hakonsson, president and CEO at Phase One confirmed the AFi system was being reevaluated after Phase One agreed to form Leaf Imaging to buy Leaf's assets. He had warned that the system's fate would be determined by Franke & Heidecke's financial situation.
RELATED ARTICLES
Franke & Heidecke: Sinar reacts to news of closure [06 July]
Franke & Heidecke to close [04 July]
Future uncertain for Leaf's AFi [01 July]
Leaf and Sinar: business as usual [18 March]
Source:
© Incisive Media Ltd. 2009
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