Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Computers & Peripherals => Topic started by: Graham Mitchell on June 03, 2009, 07:30:22 am
-
When I upgrade my current monitor I'd like it to be an IPS panel based LCD unit with LED backlighting, 24-30"
This seems to be a fairly new but potent combination. I have made a list of the units I've found, and hope people can add more I haven't discovered and give feedback on the ones I have. There doesn't seem to be many out yet.
- New Apple 24" LED. At $900 this came so close to being a killer monitor but then Appe had to put a siny surface on it and give it a new conneciton which almost no-one has!
See the glossy problem here: http://origin.arstechnica.com/journals/app...1126-135523.jpg (http://origin.arstechnica.com/journals/apple.media/24-inch-led-screen-6-20081126-135523.jpg)
- LG W2420R. This seems to be Europe only. Anyone tried one? Was supposed to come out about a month ago. See http://www.displayblog.com/2009/03/17/lg-w...-led-backlight/ (http://www.displayblog.com/2009/03/17/lg-w2420r-24-lcd-monitor-with-rgb-led-backlight/)
- HP DreamColor LP2480zx. Great reputation but pricey.
Did I miss any?
-
I'd like it to be an IPS panel based LCD unit with LED backlighting
why LED only? You exclude some very good displays.
HP DreamColor LP2480zx. Great reputation but pricey.
heard different things about it - seems to depend on the copy as there is apparently some variation in the series.
-
why LED only? You exclude some very good displays.
The extra gamut, stability and longevity. It seems there are only advantages (except perhaps price). Reduced power consumption is just another bonus but not a primary reason.
heard different things about it - seems to depend on the copy as there is apparently some variation in the series.
Oh, that's news to me but exactly the sort of feedback I was hoping for. Do you know of a specific thread about this?
-
The extra gamut, stability and longevity. It seems there are only advantages (except perhaps price).
we don't know yet! From the specs the LG is a great display. As to the LED backlight, yes, the NEC 21'' SV Reference (AFAIK the first LED display a few years ago) is a great display ... but it is a highend display.
I'd take a look at the calibration software. Actually it's good to take the manufacturers calibration software when using colorimters (instead of spectrometers) as the manufacturers implement correction curves for the specific display/measurment device (at least Quato and Eizo do so and it works just great).
The calibration software should be capable to adjust luminance, different TRCs ("Gamma"), white point (so far nothing special) and in addition you should be able to set the black point and to adjust the white point manually (but triggered by the software).
Do you know of a specific thread about this?
not a specific thread just some scattered comments in a German prepress forum.
Variation in a series should not be a big problem if the dealer/manufacturer is okay - if you get a bad copy you just send it back.
I sent back 2 Eizos and took the third... a bit shipping trouble but nothing serious.
-
You have to differentiate between the white LED backlit monitors (Apple) and the RGB backlit monitors like the HP DreamColor. It is the monitor with individual red green and blue LEDs that produces a wider color gamut.
I have been using the HP DreamColor LP2480zx since January of this year and it is an excellent choice. Compared to the other RGB LED monitors on the market, it is relatively inexpensive ($1999) and is unique in that you can actually calibrate seven different color profiles including Full Gamut, Adobe RGB and sRGB. You can switch profiles with the push of a button. This monitor offers the widest gamut currently available. It also allows input from HDMI, VGA, DVI and display port. There were quality control issues with the production of the first line of monitors that produced uneven color. I did have to return the first monitor I purchased but the replacement was perfect. I would not hesitate to recommend this monitor.
-
- New Apple 24" LED. At $900 this came so close to being a killer monitor but then Appe had to put a siny surface on it and give it a new conneciton which almost no-one has!
See the glossy problem here: http://origin.arstechnica.com/journals/app...1126-135523.jpg (http://origin.arstechnica.com/journals/apple.media/24-inch-led-screen-6-20081126-135523.jpg)
I really do not understand why Apple has chosen to offer their new screens in glossy only. And that adaptor. . . what are they thinking? Hopefully when the 30" version comes out it will not have these limitations.
-
When I upgrade my current monitor I'd like it to be an IPS panel based LCD unit with LED backlighting, 24-30"
This seems to be a fairly new but potent combination. I have made a list of the units I've found, and hope people can add more I haven't discovered and give feedback on the ones I have. There doesn't seem to be many out yet.
- New Apple 24" LED. At $900 this came so close to being a killer monitor but then Appe had to put a siny surface on it and give it a new conneciton which almost no-one has!
See the glossy problem here: http://origin.arstechnica.com/journals/app...1126-135523.jpg (http://origin.arstechnica.com/journals/apple.media/24-inch-led-screen-6-20081126-135523.jpg)
- LG W2420R. This seems to be Europe only. Anyone tried one? Was supposed to come out about a month ago. See http://www.displayblog.com/2009/03/17/lg-w...-led-backlight/ (http://www.displayblog.com/2009/03/17/lg-w2420r-24-lcd-monitor-with-rgb-led-backlight/)
- HP DreamColor LP2480zx. Great reputation but pricey.
Did I miss any?
I had hoped that the new Apple LED display would be the answer for me but after three displays I gave up using it as my primary display and settled for using one as a secondary monitor. I love the fact that it is instantly bright and uses less power and emits less heat but I never had a unit that was even top to bottom left to right with color. I ended up getting a NEC 2690WUXi2 for my primary display and love it. Perfect edge to edge top to bottom..... can't say enough about this display except that it does use slightly more power and emits a fair amount of heat. SpectraView software is a must.....
-
You have to differentiate between the white LED backlit monitors (Apple) and the RGB backlit monitors like the HP DreamColor. It is the monitor with individual red green and blue LEDs that produces a wider color gamut.
I have been using the HP DreamColor LP2480zx since January of this year and it is an excellent choice. Compared to the other RGB LED monitors on the market, it is relatively inexpensive ($1999) and is unique in that you can actually calibrate seven different color profiles including Full Gamut, Adobe RGB and sRGB. You can switch profiles with the push of a button. This monitor offers the widest gamut currently available. It also allows input from HDMI, VGA, DVI and display port. There were quality control issues with the production of the first line of monitors that produced uneven color. I did have to return the first monitor I purchased but the replacement was perfect. I would not hesitate to recommend this monitor.
Thanks, Jerry.
Would you advise where to purchase, and how to avoid the first production run, please?
Billy
-
why LED only? You exclude some very good displays.
I agree. I'd take NEC 2690WUXi2 or 3090WUXi, that also have huge gamut, H-IPS A-TW panel, can be calibrated with surgical precision, and have electronic uniformity compensation. Apple and LG are simple displays, not destined for color critical applications. If for whatever reason you just feel an urge to have LED display, take HP - but IMO it's pointless, you can have better & larger display for that money.
-
Graham,
Here's a thread about the HP:
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1366545 (http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1366545)
-
I agree. I'd take NEC 2690WUXi2 or 3090WUXi, that also have huge gamut, H-IPS A-TW panel, can be calibrated with surgical precision, and have electronic uniformity compensation. Apple and LG are simple displays, not destined for color critical applications. If for whatever reason you just feel an urge to have LED display, take HP - but IMO it's pointless, you can have better & larger display for that money.
I chose an EIZO CG241W in preference to LED displays, which I enjoy for entertainment, DVD's Blue ray etc.
But I print and to achieve WYSIWYG I would have to dumb LED monitors down. So there was no point in spending the extra cash for the only top flight monitor using LED lighting available at the beginning of the year here in the UK.
I also took advise from the supplier on this who retailed both.
I think you tailor to the need.
Of course I wish reflected light two dimensional objects had the ability to perform like my LED TV.
I do appreciate any environmental issues.
-
Thanks, Jerry.
Would you advise where to purchase, and how to avoid the first production run, please?
Billy
I purchased the monitor direct from HP along with the HP Advanced Profiling Solution which is the specially filtered i1 Display 2 and software made for this specific monitor.
http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/sm/WF...71-3648397.html (http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/sm/WF05a/382087-382087-64283-72270-3884471-3648397.html)
Jerry
-
I've always like NEC monitors.
I do have an HP Dream Color. For the price it's a very interesting monitor. You won't find a monitor for the same price with more gamut or potential. It is reliable, and has little color shift throughout the day. Question of screen uniformity though is not good. The copy I have has a significant cyan/green cast on the right or maybe it's magenta/red on the left. Top to bottom seem s fine though. What is nice is the off axis viewing is very good better than most. I have profiled it with many different approaches, but for ease of use the HP X-Rite APS with the custom i1D2 is perfect for what it does. I would prefer ColorEyes or BasicColor though as I find X-Rite acceptable but not as spot on as the two earlier software kits.
As I have said before the high gamut monitors are not for the casual user. They have too much color which is fine for ICC aware programs but for general use like viewing flash ( Falsh 10 is ICC aware) or other apps non color managed the dimension of color will be all wrong. Please not I said high gamut monitor which applies to all makes>
If you really love color photography the HP might be a great choice. IF you want a good monitor that is an all around good monitor an NEC will do you well. All depends on how far you put editing on the priority list.
-
I chose an EIZO CG241W in preference to LED displays, which I enjoy for entertainment, DVD's Blue ray etc.
But I print and to achieve WYSIWYG I would have to dumb LED monitors down. So there was no point in spending the extra cash for the only top flight monitor using LED lighting available at the beginning of the year here in the UK.
I also took advise from the supplier on this who retailed both.
I think you tailor to the need.
Of course I wish reflected light two dimensional objects had the ability to perform like my LED TV.
I do appreciate any environmental issues.
CG241 is a very good, solid and reliable display, but it has S-PVA panel. It has lower black point, so you can work at lower luminance than large NECs, but it has inferior viewing angles.
-
CG241 is a very good, solid and reliable display, but it has S-PVA panel. It has lower black point, so you can work at lower luminance than large NECs, but it has inferior viewing angles.
PVA has inferior vertical viewing angles but suprior horizontal viewing angles compared to IPS:
[attachment=14383:winkel.jpg]
source: http://colormanagement.org/download_files/...ow_Monitore.pdf (http://colormanagement.org/download_files/digit_2008-6_KnowHow_Monitore.pdf)
In practice bith display types work very well as long as you sit centered to the display and with an approriate viewing distance.
And yes... these are the displays I had in mind with my comment above: the "NEC...WUXi" series, the "Eizo CG...W" series or the Quato "Intelli Proof ... excellence" series.
-
PVA has inferior vertical viewing angles but suprior horizontal viewing angles compared to IPS:
[attachment=14383:winkel.jpg]
source: http://colormanagement.org/download_files/...ow_Monitore.pdf (http://colormanagement.org/download_files/digit_2008-6_KnowHow_Monitore.pdf)
In practice bith display types work very well as long as you sit centered to the display and with an approriate viewing distance.
And yes... these are the displays I had in mind with my comment above: the "NEC...WUXi" series, the "Eizo CG...W" series or the Quato "Intelli Proof ... excellence" series.
I'm not convinced that PVA has superior horizontal viewing angles - at angle it exhibits gamma shifts, that are not visible on IPS type displays.
-
I'm not convinced that PVA has superior horizontal viewing angles - at angle it exhibits gamma shifts, that are not visible on IPS type displays.
Nor am I. I previously used an Eizo CG211 and have now switched to the CG241. The horizontal viewing angles are shit. The CG211 is loads better.
-
Nor am I. I previously used an Eizo CG211 and have now switched to the CG241. The horizontal viewing angles are shit. The CG211 is loads better.
I have not noticed this. maybe I don't move around a lot when working. I also use the hood as my space is shared with two irritating skylights. This keeps me fairly fixed.
I tried to view at at angle just for interest, think my last monitor was worse so I am happy.
I also find the monitor relaxing on the eyes? This has become important to me.
-
I stay centered as well, so working on it is less of an issue, but if I walk (or someone else) up to the monitor and am not square to it horizontally or vertically, it's horrible. Worse part is that Eizo said they will no longer be doing IPS panels.
-
I stay centered as well, so working on it is less of an issue, but if I walk (or someone else) up to the monitor and am not square to it horizontally or vertically, it's horrible. Worse part is that Eizo said they will no longer be doing IPS panels.
They lied to you - at least they did CG232W (IPS) lately
But as a matter of fact, they put S-PVA panels to most graphics monitors, the CG232W is dedicated for postproduction and broadcasting, so maybe that's why they did an exception. I suppose the Hitachi IPS panels they used were just too expansive - for example CG211 was more expansive than larger CG241W, not to mention CG221 (but that one had also unique backlight)
-
AFAIK Eizo uses PVA for the displays 24'' and bigger as PVA is easier to correct in order to achieve even illumination (they use PVA for smaller displays as well but in the bigger displays PVA without exception).
Today there are more designers working on both print and audiovision at the same working station and for video the deep black points of PVA panels are required.
For photography/print working solo with the display and at an appropriate viewing distance color and/or gamma shifts are not a problem. Working with a client or a second person PVA is certainly critical.
-
Foto-z...the Samsung XL30..
Neil, you should have the screen replaced. That is usually due to poor triad calibration/sync of the LEDs in mfg .
I use Samsung XL30, and it would be hard for me to go to regular LCD as a main screen.
There is no flicker, no warm up, very little heat, less often calibrate, After 3 years you will not notice the calibration getting harder, screen getting dim.
Also, Neil...The XL30(As well as your HP) has the differnt hard button setting on the screen that you can toggle between profiles, and you can easily use sRGB.
The XL30 comes with a Eye1 screen specific calibration device and software(and a hood) to calibrate the LUT(I think it is 14bit?) in the screen not your vid card.
If anyone is in the market for a new screen, and can justify $2K or more (as one should get as good a screen possible if it is something you spend half your life in front of)....I would urge them to look at the 2 screen side by side if possible, you will notivce over time looking even at LCD there is a strain as it flickers. LED is solid. I use the LCD as my thumbnails and palletes window now. It is a super screen, but you do have to see them together. The colors are also dead accurate. I am a bit more confident with my proofing as it matchs the contract proofs very nicely. I love good technology, and even keep 3 24" crts in use, but to edit, I love he XL30.
I think qualtity control would be the only issue, and you really shouldn't accept a screen with uniformity issues. If you light up the screen with all white, and it is not dead neutral after a proper calibration, you shouldn't accept the copy in pro level monitors.
With all this positive stuff I said about the XL30, I am yet to get a 64bit version that is supposed to be out already. Also the screen will have a couple, one pixel thick line of garbage across the screen for a couple seconds and then disapear. This happens when I launch a program(not everytime), and it might be the frqcy of vid card? But once a week or so, and not enough of a bother to even take away from it. But Samsung should look into this as it is there, and should be something to clear out...if it is the screen and not the card.
The HP and the Samsung have many like features, and I wonder if it is a rebadge, as I don't think HP makes any panels or lcd screen parts?
As posted earlier, dont confuse white LED with RGB LED, The green benifits are there, but not the color accuracy or gamut.
-
I had hoped that the new Apple LED display would be the answer for me but after three displays I gave up using it as my primary display and settled for using one as a secondary monitor. I love the fact that it is instantly bright and uses less power and emits less heat but I never had a unit that was even top to bottom left to right with color. I ended up getting a NEC 2690WUXi2 for my primary display and love it. Perfect edge to edge top to bottom..... can't say enough about this display except that it does use slightly more power and emits a fair amount of heat. SpectraView software is a must.....
I agree. I found that it's a lot like HDTVs. Only a couple of companies actually make the panels, and beyond that, it's all marketing and other BS. For instance, the Apple displays are just not as good as the top end Viewsonic or NEC offerings(doubly so with that glossy screen).
For the price, I'd jsut get one of those. So what if the lighting gets "off" after a year or two if the thing costs 1/5th or less of what a LED display does? In two years, OLEDs will be out and then it's buy one and never look back.
EDIT - the glossy surface is because idiots and kids don't know how to keep their fingers off of the screen or how to clean it once it gets smudges on it. It's not there for color fidelity but for marketing purposes.
-
A 9" OLED from Sony is $10K at this time. RGB LED's are not drastically more than LCD's.
I didn't realize Viewsonic is starting to do anything right in the monitor arena. Since they branched out brands they have really been poor quality. They were the best in CRT up to 22", but that was it.
I used to love Viewsonic, I will have to check their products out if you think they have changed recently. Good to know.
How much is a 30" top NEC screen? I cant image 1/5th of LED?
I had the Apple CDisplay and didn't realize how bad it was until I looked at models like NEC and Samsung, even Dell.
-
I agree. I'd take NEC 2690WUXi2 or 3090WUXi, that also have huge gamut, H-IPS A-TW panel, can be calibrated with surgical precision, and have electronic uniformity compensation. Apple and LG are simple displays, not destined for color critical applications. If for whatever reason you just feel an urge to have LED display, take HP - but IMO it's pointless, you can have better & larger display for that money.
I'll second that recommendation! Apple displays? Nothing at all special.
-
A 9" OLED from Sony is $10K at this time. RGB LED's are not drastically more than LCD's.
I didn't realize Viewsonic is starting to do anything right in the monitor arena. Since they branched out brands they have really been poor quality. They were the best in CRT up to 22", but that was it.
I used to love Viewsonic, I will have to check their products out if you think they have changed recently. Good to know.
How much is a 30" top NEC screen? I cant image 1/5th of LED?
I had the Apple CDisplay and didn't realize how bad it was until I looked at models like NEC and Samsung, even Dell.
Exactly. Viewsonic is a lot like the Dell - likely the same panels. Are they a NEC or BenQ or similar... of course not. But they are reasonably decent for the cost. Of course, you have to look at the top-end "pro" models that they make. Only the X line by Viewsonic(serial number starts with VX), and even then just a couple of the top end models, are noteworthy. But they crush Apple by an immediately visible margin. Fast, bright, clean.
-
A 9" OLED from Sony is $10K at this time. RGB LED's are not drastically more than LCD's.
I didn't realize Viewsonic is starting to do anything right in the monitor arena. Since they branched out brands they have really been poor quality. They were the best in CRT up to 22", but that was it.
I used to love Viewsonic, I will have to check their products out if you think they have changed recently. Good to know.
How much is a 30" top NEC screen? I cant image 1/5th of LED?
I had the Apple CDisplay and didn't realize how bad it was until I looked at models like NEC and Samsung, even Dell.
Exactly. Viewsonic is a lot like the Dell - likely the same panels. Are they a NEC or BenQ or similar... of course not. But they are reasonably decent for the cost. Of course, you have to look at the top-end "pro" models that they make. Only the X line by Viewsonic(serial number starts with VX), and even then just a couple of the top end models, are noteworthy. But they crush Apple by an immediately visible margin. Fast, bright, clean.
-
I believe my Samsung is a PVA(or spva)?, For side/side to start shifting you need to be at a extreme angle.
Anyone doing editing, is going to be rather close to the screen, and any left to right when you are within 2-3 feet, is not an issue.
Oddly enough when you do extreme angle view the screen helps you distinguish 300% black vs any less. Actualy very useful as a tool when editing.
It isn't ideal to have a few people watch a movie on, but you can.
I find people that don't like PVA are those that have not seen good screens using PVA, or there must be different PVA technologies like the SPVA perhaps.
It is so minimal on some screens, it hardly is worth mentioning.
I also have a $500 low budget 24" LG lcd, and that shows shifting very harshly soon after you get at an angle..
-
I have the chance to get a Samsung XL24 at a good price and with warranty.
My understanding is that Samsung have discontinued this range so I have a bit of concern over that, but certainly specifically to the driver and calibration software updates, both improving them and for new operating systems.
It seems that the driver has been updated to 64bit but perhaps the driver is generic and will always get updated by default when newer screen drivers are updated, but the calibration software is specific to the XL range, so this will probably not get updated in the future.
It seems the 32bit calibration software should run on a 64bit machine, albeit slower than it would on a 32bit machine, but that would not seem to matter as it is just doing calibration, as long as the software does work correctly?
It would be great to get comments on these points.
-
I have the chance to get a Samsung XL24 at a good price and with warranty.
My understanding is that Samsung have discontinued this range so I have a bit of concern over that, but certainly specifically to the driver and calibration software updates, both improving them and for new operating systems.
It seems that the driver has been updated to 64bit but perhaps the driver is generic and will always get updated by default when newer screen drivers are updated, but the calibration software is specific to the XL range, so this will probably not get updated in the future.
It seems the 32bit calibration software should run on a 64bit machine, albeit slower than it would on a 32bit machine, but that would not seem to matter as it is just doing calibration, as long as the software does work correctly?
It would be great to get comments on these points.
Steve, Thanks for your reply, as I was thinking it might not work at all. I called Samsung, and they said they don't have dates or info on a 64bit version. They recommended I calibrate the video card. This to me defeats the purpose and one of the reasons for getting the Xl in the first place.
If it does run in 32bit, I could care less about the speed, as you mention. I wonder if anyone has tested?
I have a Windows 7 on order for October. Until then I am still working under 32bit.
This monitor is the best I have seen and used.
I would hate to have any limitation on it due to OS. I also doubt calibrating the video card will give same or as accurate results?
Regardless of the limitation, if you are getting it at a "good" price (whats a good price?)....I would not hesitate buying it again.
I don't think the screen needs to be calibrated often...Perhaps have it on another system.....use the same vid card on 32bit,...calibrate the screen, and then plug into the 64bit system? Not sure how that would work, but for someone like me having mulitple systems around the office, it isn't too bad. Or an Emulation mode of 32bit in 64bit to run the calibration?
-
Phil, the reply you got from Samsung pretty much shows why an apparently great product like the XL range is being discontinued, great product innovation and clueless support afterward, you wonder how these big companies keep going, hang on, forgot they are all losing money, i wonder why!
from what i have been told, you would not have to set the monitor up on 32bit machines as the software should run under 64bit, if i go ahead and get the monitor, i will set it up on a Windows Server 64bit machine and let you know how it goes
-
can't say enough about this display except that it does use slightly more power and emits a fair amount of heat.
Hi vjbelle,
just how bad is that heat? Well that is of course difficult to quantify ... And does it radiate right into your face, or to the rear of the display? I considered an LED model for that sake, but NEC does not seem to offer any LED model in Norway, and even on their US web site it is announced at close-out price.
Kind regards - Hening.
-
Hi vjbelle,
just how bad is that heat? Well that is of course difficult to quantify ... And does it radiate right into your face, or to the rear of the display? I considered an LED model for that sake, but NEC does not seem to offer any LED model in Norway, and even on their US web site it is announced at close-out price.
Kind regards - Hening.
Just picked up a Eizo CG301W to replace my CG220. I know it normally is very exepsnive, but I once again got a demo model, without many hours of viewing for around 1400EURs. Big thanks to my dealer for thinking of me before selling it otherwise.
-
AFAIK Eizo uses PVA for the displays 24'' and bigger as PVA is easier to correct in order to achieve even illumination (they use PVA for smaller displays as well but in the bigger displays PVA without exception).
Today there are more designers working on both print and audiovision at the same working station and for video the deep black points of PVA panels are required.
For photography/print working solo with the display and at an appropriate viewing distance color and/or gamma shifts are not a problem. Working with a client or a second person PVA is certainly critical.
Eizo has just returned to the use of IPS-panels with the latest 24"-model of the CG-series. The CG243W has a H-IPS panel from LG, but without A-TW-Polarizer, as LG is reportedly not producing such panels anymore. Only NEC seems to have stocked H-IPS-panels with A-TW for their SpectraViews. As I convinced myself, the CG243W has much better viewing angles for the lower gray scale, which is simply terrible with S-PVA-panels. But a black screens lightens considerably when viewed at an angle, even more than with any S-PVA-panel.
On the plus side, the S-PVA-panels have a deep black, high contrast and a white screen with very good color uniformity. For example, a white screen on the H-IPS-panel in the LED-Cinema-Display looks slightly and differently tinted towards the right and left side (when viewed straight), a little bit like the first IPS-panels.
To my knowledge the H-IPS-panel from LG with A-TW-polarizer is the only LCD-panel with CRT-like viewing angles.
In the high-end-model CG221 Eizo uses a S-IPS-panel from the inventor of IPS, Hitachi, which is generally considered a very good, but also the most expensive panel.
By the way I've been told that Eizo will introduce 24"-IPS-LCDs with RGB-LED-backlight in spring, along with a 30"-IPS-Monitor...
The NEC SpectraViews do have a significant disadvantage too: Since their backlight apparently can't be brought down below 140 cd/m^2, the contrast gets lowered when calibrated for a typical target luminance of 100 cd/m^2. I assume the color space resolution is also reduced, but I don't know for sure. Also the mechanics of the NEC foot is rather shaky.
In my opinion the Eizo Color Navigator is the best calibration software, since it gives very good and consistent results across different types of measurement instruments. I can't say the same about basICColor (=SpectraView in Europe)...