Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: ThePhotoDude on May 29, 2009, 10:20:02 am

Title: Faulty HP Paper
Post by: ThePhotoDude on May 29, 2009, 10:20:02 am
Just a little heads up,

Have received two rolls of this paper, and both giving the same print quality problems, ink density on the right hand side is not even, causing marks, like faint dark bars down the print. You can only see it with solid tones.

Have called supplier and they suggest faulty batch, problem with coating.
There is no HP branding on the back of this paper either, when there normally is.

Lot Number : 00401626

Cheers
Title: Faulty HP Paper
Post by: neil snape on May 29, 2009, 11:06:39 am
Quote from: ThePhotoDude
Just a little heads up,

Have received two rolls of this paper, and both giving the same print quality problems, ink density on the right hand side is not even, causing marks, like faint dark bars down the print. You can only see it with solid tones.

Have called supplier and they suggest faulty batch, problem with coating.
There is no HP branding on the back of this paper either, when there normally is.

Lot Number : 00401626

Cheers

Good to know the lot number. I was just going to buy some rolls. I find it is the best value in a extra heavy weight satin paper.

I haven't seen any logos on Pro Satin which is one of the advantages. There are two weights, maybe it's only the thicker rolls which are without logos.
Title: Faulty HP Paper
Post by: ThePhotoDude on May 29, 2009, 11:50:38 am
Quote from: neil snape
Good to know the lot number. I was just going to buy some rolls. I find it is the best value in a extra heavy weight satin paper.

I haven't seen any logos on Pro Satin which is one of the advantages. There are two weights, maybe it's only the thicker rolls which are without logos.

Two weights? I only know one, 300gsm, comes in 24" rolls Q8759A and 44" rolls Q8840A, both same weight.

I have always had logos on mine. Interesting, what country are you in?

Quick sideline here Neil, in your opinion what Satin finish paper do you find the best?

John
Title: Faulty HP Paper
Post by: Colorwave on May 29, 2009, 12:42:17 pm
FWIW:  Never seen a logo (thankfully) on any of mine from US sources.
Title: Faulty HP Paper
Post by: neil snape on May 29, 2009, 02:26:28 pm
Quote from: ThePhotoDude
Two weights? I only know one, 300gsm, comes in 24" rolls Q8759A and 44" rolls Q8840A, both same weight.

I have always had logos on mine. Interesting, what country are you in?

Quick sideline here Neil, in your opinion what Satin finish paper do you find the best?

John
Europe ah now I I remember it was the HP FA Smooth that is different in sheets than roll. In any case I've never seen a logo on Pro Satin sheets or roll.

The Pro Satin is the best Satin I know of outside of any rag paper base. It is not the highest gamut but the surface is really nice and usually error free. In portfolios other less robust paper is fine but for prints for sale I think Pro Satin is great.
Title: Faulty HP Paper
Post by: ThePhotoDude on July 06, 2009, 08:51:11 am
It's come back to haunt me .... My supplier resent me two new rolls of this paper, from a different batch, it looked good to start, but I have noticed the problem again... Striping down the page, looks like ink density, only notice it with large continuous tones.

This is costing me a small fortune, in reprints, inks, time.

Am fed up now, a knee jerk reaction perhaps but I want to jump ship from HP media. Anybody tell me of a replacement to Pro Satin? Not looking for cheaper alternative, but something that can equal or better the HP Pro Satin in print quality, gamut, texture and quality control and consistency between rolls.

I've seen a few people recommend Red River here, but I cannot find a UK supplier.

Thanks
Title: Faulty HP Paper
Post by: Colorwave on July 06, 2009, 12:16:27 pm
I had some issues early on with faint soft grooves (not star wheel or pinch roller caused) in the paper that were not very obvious until printed on.  Have you contacted HP about replacement.  I don't think they can help you with ink or time, but they replaced some paper for me.
Title: Faulty HP Paper
Post by: dkeyes on September 05, 2009, 12:20:47 am
Quote from: ThePhotoDude
Just a little heads up,

Have received two rolls of this paper, and both giving the same print quality problems, ink density on the right hand side is not even, causing marks, like faint dark bars down the print. You can only see it with solid tones.

Have called supplier and they suggest faulty batch, problem with coating.
There is no HP branding on the back of this paper either, when there normally is.

Lot Number : 00401626

Cheers
I've had the same problem off and on for over a year only on the 44" rolls, never on the 24" rolls. Thought HP had solved this issue about 6 months ago since my last 8 rolls were good. Just went through 1/3 of my recent Pro satin 44" roll and problem showed up again. Lot Number: 04107520

Like most people using this paper, I haven't found anything comparable I want to switch to. I'm hoping HP gets this figured out but I'm not too hopeful since this has been going on for so long. FYI, I've been buying my paper through CostCentral since I've found they have the best price I could find.
Title: Faulty HP Paper
Post by: deanwork on September 16, 2009, 10:27:40 am
Quote from: dkeyes
I've had the same problem off and on for over a year only on the 44" rolls, never on the 24" rolls. Thought HP had solved this issue about 6 months ago since my last 8 rolls were good. Just went through 1/3 of my recent Pro satin 44" roll and problem showed up again. Lot Number: 04107520

Like most people using this paper, I haven't found anything comparable I want to switch to. I'm hoping HP gets this figured out but I'm not too hopeful since this has been going on for so long. FYI, I've been buying my paper through CostCentral since I've found they have the best price I could find.



I just ended up with a disaster job that is costing me a lot of money. Doing a whole exhibition with Hp Pro Satin, 30x40 prints with black and gray backgrounds. I've gone through two rolls of 44" paper and just ordered another another before I read this.
I called HP and they denied any issue with the paper.
Title: Faulty HP Paper
Post by: deanwork on September 16, 2009, 11:49:30 am
Have the HP engineer out here now and he's going round and round with his corporate staff trying to find someone who will admit to this issue.

We are going to get to the bottom of this one way or another if it kills me.

He pointed out to me that you can actually see the bands of uneven coating on the 44" roll before it goes through the machine. This is apparently only happening with 44" rolls where you print an even tone in the background.

I'll keep you guys informed.

By reviewing this site I see the exact same issue was heavily discussed going back to 2007.

Does anyone have  a suggestion for a satin rc paper to use for this job. I've already lost about a grand on this job and I can't afford to loose more. I'm certainly not using Red River papers.

john
Title: Faulty HP Paper
Post by: dkeyes on September 16, 2009, 12:25:54 pm
Quote from: deanwork
Have the HP engineer out here now and he's going round and round with his corporate staff trying to find someone who will admit to this issue.

We are going to get to the bottom of this one way or another if it kills me.

He pointed out to me that you can actually see the bands of uneven coating on the 44" roll before it goes through the machine. This is apparently only happening with 44" rolls where you print an even tone in the background.

I'll keep you guys informed.

By reviewing this site I see the exact same issue was heavily discussed going back to 2007.

Does anyone have  a suggestion for a satin rc paper to use for this job. I've already lost about a grand on this job and I can't afford to loose more. I'm certainly not using Red River papers.

john
I purchased a roll last week from Provantage and 44" roll is fine. Price is lowest I've found recently. It seems to depend on which warehouse the rolls drop ship from. I'm assuming many of these places get their paper from the same warehouses around the country. I'll see if my assumptions are correct when I get my last bad roll replaced. I asked Cost Central (where I bought it from) to drop ship from another werehouse (other than west coast). All my recent good rolls start with the serial number 2.

HP knows about the paper issues, I and another person on LL talked with a guy in charge of this paper at HP in San Diego and sent rolls back to him. He personally replaced 3 rolls for me last year. All have a coating issue you can see at an angle when looking into the light. Usually near the middle of the roll, 20" in on one side all the way through the roll. My guess/hope is these are old rolls in inventory since these serial numbers are similar to what I had over a year ago when the problems started. Too bad they didn't just recall the old lots.
Title: Faulty HP Paper
Post by: deanwork on September 16, 2009, 01:44:24 pm
Yea they just called me and said they were aware of the problem after all, ( how sweet of them to admit....) though the phone support people and "engineers" certainly weren't  informed .
They say there was a problem 2 years ago and it was resolved. But,  IF that is true, we still have bad batches of this Pro Satin being circulated.

Let's see what happens when they replace this roll. Man I'm in the hole on this job, just what I needed this week.

All of these batches (made in Germany?) that were bad should have been recalled, obviously.
john
Title: Faulty HP Paper
Post by: Colorwave on September 16, 2009, 02:18:24 pm
John-
Try to get ink from them to cover your cost, as well.  I had tech support admit to having me do something that wasted a lot of my ink, and they sent me 7 new cartridges as a make good.  Since this is a known issue, they really have no excuse to let their sloppy handling of this be costing their loyal customers this late in the game.  You are out time and aggravation, even if the monetary side is compensated for.  Thankfully, I've had some other issues with the Pro Satin, but not this one.  I still occasionally get a round dents in the paper that are about the size of a BB.  Usually only one per print, and definitely not caused by the printer.  I've seen other types of paper defects before, but this is the only one that has had that type of flaw.
Title: Faulty HP Paper
Post by: jhein on September 16, 2009, 03:06:32 pm
Quote from: deanwork
I'm certainly not using Red River papers.

john

Ok, I'll bite.  I have used the Red River Satin papers with great success.  What issues have you had?

thanks
Jim
Title: Faulty HP Paper
Post by: deanwork on September 16, 2009, 03:37:00 pm
Well I haven't used it for rc work, but I have used various RR matte media for  designers that insisted on it over the years.

Their "premium" matt and "polar" matte that is so popular simply glows like a fire under a uv light. I have a lot of prints here that were done 3-4 years ago where the obas have burned out so totally that the paper base is now gray, really bad, worse than Epson "archival matte" by far, which is also totally loaded with obas. These prints that I have were even carefully stored in a print bin and in portfolios away from daylight for the most part. So they deteriorated ( under the same conditions as all my other paper samples) even in dark storage with low humidity and average temp. This was from different batches over several years.

They may not even make their rc papers, who knows. When you are doing work for other people that is supposed to last a life time, you can't afford to experiment with longevity. That is why I'm reluctant to start looking for a replacement for Pro Satin. There are so.......many companies that rebrand and remarket all kinds of satin rc paper for cheaper prices but how would I ever know what went into it. I'm too old to experiement anymore and don't consider that my job.

Some people like the Moab version, but once again they may or may not even be making it or have ever had it tested.

john





Quote from: jhein
Ok, I'll bite.  I have used the Red River Satin papers with great success.  What issues have you had?

thanks
Jim
Title: Faulty HP Paper
Post by: MHMG on September 22, 2009, 08:33:15 pm
Quote from: deanwork
Their "premium" matt and "polar" matte that is so popular simply glows like a fire under a uv light. I have a lot of prints here that were done 3-4 years ago where the obas have burned out so totally that the paper base is now gray, really bad, worse than Epson "archival matte" by far, which is also totally loaded with obas. These prints that I have were even carefully stored in a print bin and in portfolios away from daylight for the most part. So they deteriorated ( under the same conditions as all my other paper samples) even in dark storage with low humidity and average temp. This was from different batches over several years.

They may not even make their rc papers, who knows. When you are doing work for other people that is supposed to last a life time, you can't afford to experiment with longevity. That is why I'm reluctant to start looking for a replacement for Pro Satin. There are so.......many companies that rebrand and remarket all kinds of satin rc paper for cheaper prices but how would I ever know what went into it.


It took some revisitation to the OBA issue for me to figure this out, but I've concluded recently that OBAs in traditional silver gelatin papers and OBAs in microporous inkjet papers are not on the same scale for susceptibility to failure. OBAs buried under gelatin coatings have reasonable protection against ozone, whereas OBAs in microporous coatings do not. While OBA's can and do burn out from light exposure, the gas fade issue, IMHO, is the bigger issue. Recall the serious problems of gas fading and inkjet dyes. Well, OBA's are dyes, but the manufacturers have not taken the same steps to improve OBA performance that they did to improve dye stability. Some of this indifference can be blamed on the fact that industry-sponsored consumer fade criteria have liberal tolerances for media white point discoloration which are not triggered by OBA failure. OBAs essentially get a free pass in the longevity rating, but most discriminating viewers will notice the changes in paper color due to OBA burnout well before the consumer-oriented display life ratings predict.  Moreover, to say that a paper will simply revert to its "natural" color when the OBA fluorescence dies, ignores the fact that gas fading is often not uniform. Preferential gas pollutant attack around the print edges causes non uniform loss of OBA fluorescence. Edges are usually more exposed to airflow than the center of the print when prints are stacked, placed in albums, etc.  The visual result is a print that looks significantly more discolored at the corners because the better preserved mid section of the print serves as a direct point of reference for the original cool white appearance that has now vanished non uniformly in other areas of the print.  Not very appealing!

Unfortunately, HP Pro Satin, although not as heavily OBA loaded as many of the RR papers with OBAs, is still pretty heavy on OBA content in its top coat. There are better performing RC papers out there (Canon Heavyweight Satin photographic paper, Epson Premium Luster, for example) with respect to restrained use of OBAs to achieve initial white point, and they clearly outperform HP Pro Satin in my light fastness tests. HP Pro Satin gets an industry rated 250+ year display rating that may be justified for non critical consumer photo judgements about "easily noticeable fade", but I have documented noticeable OBA fade in less than 20 Megalux hours in my light fade tests (equivalent to only 10 WIR years on display).

regards,

Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com (http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com)
Title: Faulty HP Paper
Post by: Colorwave on September 22, 2009, 09:06:05 pm
Quote from: MHMG
HP Pro Satin gets an industry rated 250+ year display rating that may be justified for non critical consumer photo judgements about "easily noticeable fade", but I have documented noticeable OBA fade in less than 20 Megalux hours in my light fade tests (equivalent to only 10 WIR years on display).

I'm sorry to hear that, as it is a top performing paper on an HP Z printer, otherwise.  That is certainly a big discrepancy, between 250 and 10 years, based on different criteria.

I thought that OBAs were a concern, but not a particularly short term issue until something recently made me a realize that they are much more a worry than I previously thought.  I had a short roll of HP Professional Matte Canvas that I failed to put away and had left standing on end, with a band of acid free paper securing it from unrolling.  The roll was nowhere near any direct sun, and only got extremely diffused natural light at reasonably low levels.  I had already switched to trying to print all my canvas work on Chromata White, but had a client that wanted the HP canvas instead.  

When I went to unroll it, I was shocked to see that the canvas was significantly whiter under the band than on either side, after just over a month's time.  At first I thought it must be a flaw in the coating, but then I checked and confirmed that it was the exact size of the area that was covered.  Granted, I live on a rock in the middle of the Pacific that has a lot of volcanic gasses in the air, but not enough that it is rotting our lungs, so it is perhaps a factor, but not extreme enough to justify this in only a few weeks time.  The vog is largely sulphur dioxide, and is worse some times than others, but I had asthma in California that has gone away since moving here, so I don't find it to be much more than a visual issue.  I confirmed that it was the OBA fading at work by putting an ultraviolet light on it.  The light area glowed brightly, and the darker area was unaffected.  I don't know whether to blame the gas issue or UVs, but either way, it is a significant concern.

I now have joined the OBA/"sky is falling" choir.  The HP Pro Satin is the paper that I have been the most reluctant to discontinue, but this news from Mark is another strike against it.  I still use some Hahnemuhle papers that have the OBAs cooked into the pulp, but prefer the ones without it altogether.  If a client insists, I tell them why I prefer to avoid them, but obviously the customer "knows best" and I print on what they request.  

I guess I need to start looking for another smooth satin paper without OBAs.  Breathing Color seems to be on the right track, but their papers aren't switched over just yet, and I don't think they even have a smooth satin paper in their line anyway.
Title: Faulty HP Paper
Post by: MHMG on September 22, 2009, 09:51:30 pm
Quote from: Colorwave
I now have joined the OBA/"sky is falling" choir.  The HP Pro Satin is the paper that I have been the most reluctant to discontinue, but this news from Mark is another strike against it.  I still use some Hahnemuhle papers that have the OBAs cooked into the pulp, but prefer the ones without it altogether.  If a client insists, I tell them why I prefer to avoid them, but obviously the customer "knows best" and I print on what they request.  

I guess I need to start looking for another smooth satin paper without OBAs.  Breathing Color seems to be on the right track, but their papers aren't switched over just yet, and I don't think they even have a smooth satin paper in their line anyway.

Well, the complete story is a little more complicated than just recommending against OBAs entirely. As in Hahnemuhle's case in many of their papers, when OBAs are used judiciously, sometimes for example in the paper core but not in the coating, the level of "whitening" added by the use of OBAs is no more than the level of batch-to-batch media white "leveling" in OBA-free papers imparted by additional dyes or colorants. And paper fibers and coatings can also be bleached by light. So, I've seen OBA-free papers shift a few LAB b* value units in the direction of getting cooler much like some OBA containing papers getting a few points warmer. Either way, color shifts in media white points represent some change in the visual appearance.

If I had to generalize, I'd say to avoid papers with media white CIELAB b* values more negative than about -3.5 (bluish in color). However, papers in the bluish b* range of -1.0 to -3.5 may color shift over time no more than some "natural" OBA-free papers that can go, for example from initial b* values of +2.0 to 4.0 towards 0.0.  In other words, OBA papers can shift yellow, but OBA-free papers can fade towards more blue in color.  Moreover, the only way to know total product performance including chemical interactions with the ink is to make a specific product test. Pigmented inks, although more immune to paper chemistry than dyes, are not totally immune.  Some papers will produce two to three time better light fastness results with a particular pigmented ink set than others.

cheers,

Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com (http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com)
Title: Faulty HP Paper
Post by: Colorwave on September 22, 2009, 10:09:16 pm
I get it, Mark.  I mentioned that some of the Hahnemuhle papers I use have the OBA's integrated into the pulp, so I'm aware that there is a difference in where they are incorporated into the final product.  I'm happy to hear that you don't discourage them altogether, though, if used sparingly and appropriately.   Like many things, there are nuances that make the decision making process more complex than black and white. I suppose I should have said "approach with caution' instead of "avoid".

My UV light has proven quite informative in terms of evaluating the degree of OBA brightening present (at least on the top layers).  Some papers and canvases look like they were plugged into their own light source when thy have UV to excite them.  One of the worst is Breathing Color's Optica One, a very nice paper, but one that they apparently trowel the OBA coating onto.  It is ironic that the same company touts no OBAs in their canvases.  In their defense, I know that they are due to release versions without them soon, but they have been marketing the Chromata as superior because it doesn't have them for quite some time, while ignoring the issue with their papers.
Title: Faulty HP Paper
Post by: jdoyle1713 on September 22, 2009, 10:27:48 pm
All I Can Say is WOW!! Few Things.. HP will replace the paper Thats a Given if you have a problem getting it replaced John Call me..Mark what an explanation..Thats deep stuff..Nice  By the way Gang.. Red Revir & breathing Color do not make papers or Canvas they simply Have a mill make it and than have it converted to there spec and label it! I guess you could call them a manufacture to a degree but they DO Not make these papers Nor does HP, Canon, Epson, Moab or for the record any Private label company..

Hope everyone is doing well I have been not participating in the last few months .. But I am back

Cheers
Jim Doyle
http://www.shadesofpaper.com (http://www.shadesofpaper.com)
Title: Faulty HP Paper
Post by: MHMG on September 22, 2009, 10:28:16 pm
Quote from: Colorwave
My UV light has proven quite informative in terms of evaluating the degree of OBA brightening present (at least on the top layers).  Some papers and canvases look like they were plugged into their own light source when thy have UV to excite them.

Yes, I heartily recommend a UV black light as a serious paper evaluation tool, that and a colorimeter (UV not excluded) for paper studies.  After a while, one can really learn to differentiate concentration and coating location differences of OBAs. Believe it or not, I use a 48" UV lamp that fits a T8 or T12 fluorescent lamp fixture. Inexpensive (under $20) and "lights" up a whole work surface.

best,

Mark
Title: Faulty HP Paper
Post by: deanwork on September 23, 2009, 02:44:06 pm
Jimmy,

I wasn't going to even think of bothering you about his issue, married boy. You've done far enough for us, and it's not your baby to deal with. There is an HP guy who is working on this -  a whole group of them I think. They are going to replace my Pro Satin (and hopefullly all the tons of wasted ink!) He is still trying to identify if there are indeed any good rolls out there at all. I suspect from Doug's very recent experience with files just like mine that there are good rolls and bad rolls in circulation. The problem in identifying this is that it only shows up for the most part with black and darker colored backgrounds. So, most people using it for other subjects, that don't have large smooth areas in the middle of the 44" roll, wouldn't notice it. What is disturbing is that this exact same location of the 44" roll being coated poorly was well described here two years ago and, either nothing has changed in production, OR there are tons of 2 years old rolls being sold, which I sincerely doubt. I hit three bad ones out of three in a row. The one before that was good.

In the permanence area, if you guys are at all interested in finding out more about Mark's valuable research into all this PLEASE visit and join his site. This is going to tell us a lot about inks AND MEDIA. Wilhelm tells us almost nothing really about media.

 -http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/

Interestingly enough, if you check the HP Vivera chart on Wilhelm Research website under Hp Pro Satin he says there are NO oba's present. Very confusing for us consumers to say the least. The media is noticeably warmer than many similar papers.

What Mark just described about oba burnout is very disheartening, especially rating lower than the Premium Luster. Especially considering that the rolls of Premium Luster are twice as long! However, I just did a job on the Z with Premium Luster with black backgrounds (had no choice or time) and although it works, I just can't get over the buck shot texture of that stuff, even for large things.

Someone just mentioned that Lexjet is marketing an rc E Satin that works well on the Z, and there is that new Moab Lasal. Don't know where Legion gets that stuff, Ilford? Who knows where all this stuff comes from and who actually makes it and which ones come from the same factories. I'm suspicious that none of them are going to exhibit the total elimination of gloss differiental and bronzing issues the way Pro Satin does with these inks.

I also am very interested in knowing why other companies are not using non-oba whiteners like the Chromata canvas in their whiter media? I believe Marks tests of the BC canvas is going to hell us more about just how much better it is faring, if any. I'm afraid there are going to be a lot of grayish blotchy looking  rc prints floating around in galleries in 10 years. If  my clients come to hang me I'll need a witness.

j






Quote from: jdoyle1713
All I Can Say is WOW!! Few Things.. HP will replace the paper Thats a Given if you have a problem getting it replaced John Call me..Mark what an explanation..Thats deep stuff..Nice  By the way Gang.. Red Revir & breathing Color do not make papers or Canvas they simply Have a mill make it and than have it converted to there spec and label it! I guess you could call them a manufacture to a degree but they DO Not make these papers Nor does HP, Canon, Epson, Moab or for the record any Private label company..

Hope everyone is doing well I have been not participating in the last few months .. But I am back

Cheers
Jim Doyle
http://www.shadesofpaper.com (http://www.shadesofpaper.com)
Title: Faulty HP Paper
Post by: MHMG on September 23, 2009, 09:24:36 pm
Quote from: deanwork
Interestingly enough, if you check the HP Vivera chart on Wilhelm Research website under Hp Pro Satin he says there are NO oba's present. Very confusing for us consumers to say the least. The media is noticeably warmer than many similar papers.

What Mark just described about oba burnout is very disheartening, especially rating lower than the Premium Luster. Especially considering that the rolls of Premium Luster are twice as long! However, I just did a job on the Z with Premium Luster with black backgrounds (had no choice or time) and although it works, I just can't get over the buck shot texture of that stuff, even for large things.

Maybe just a documentation error in the WIR report. The only OBA-free image layers on RC base I've ever seen are proofing papers and even they still have OBA in the paper core. The Pro Satin sample submitted to me definitely has OBAs in the top coat, and I wouldn't describe it as warm. It's a bright white paper for sure though not as strikingly blue as some of the "over the top" bright white papers like the Red River papers mentioned by Colorwave in this thread. The Pro Satin measured b* = -4.0 UV included, b*= +0.5 UV excluded, for a delta B* value of 4.5, i.e, significant OBA content. Although the possibility of misidentification always exists, I've also seen another sample from another batch. It was initially bright white, too, and ironically, was sent to me by a colleague as an example of a paper that had turned slightly yellow due to OBA loss in a window fade test after only about three months (less than 10 Megalux hours of exposure). My colleague didn't understand how a paper rated at 250+ years on display could discolor so quickly in a window fade test lasting only 90 days. I point out as I noted in my earlier post that the level of discoloration he observed was less than the amount that would be needed to trigger a paper white failure point in a consumer-oriented test. He was noticing (and objecting to) a change that would not be judged "easily noticeable" by an image quality-tolerant consumer, yet he and I both agreed it was both noticeable and visually significant for a fine art or professional portraiture application.

You might want to give Canon Heavyweight Satin Photographic paper a try. It will look closer in surface texture appearance to the HP Pro Satin than a luster surface paper.  I see no reason it wouldn't print well on your Z3100. And although it has OBAs as well (b*=-4.6 UV included, b* = -1.2 UV excluded, delta B* = 3.4) the Canon Heavyweight Satin took significantly higher light exposure dose to trigger the lower limit of the AaI&A Conservation Display rating with Lucia pigmented ink compared to the HP Pro Satin with Vivera pigmented ink (104 megalux hours versus 13 megalux hours), and this lower limit was reached in both cases due to paper white and highlight color changes (highlight color change caused by the underlying paper color change) not so much ink fade. The upper Conservation Display rating (a measure of overall system performance) has not yet been reached for either of these test samples. Also, members of the AaI&A digital print research program are welcome to submit samples, so this unique printer/ink/paper combination actually has a chance of getting tested by AaI&A, whereas neither Canon nor HP would ever be likely to submit this product combination for testing with other independent labs!

Lastly, for those who would like to know more about my OBA research, you can take a look at a recent paper I posted on the documents page of my website. It's entitled "Case Study #2:  A Year in the Life of an Inkjet Print – Environmental, Colorimetric, and Visual Assessments".  Perhaps a very good article to put you to sleep, but nonetheless it documents real world gas fading of OBAs among other things.  The following link should hopefully provide a free and direct download:

http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/cgi-bin/...NDU2Nzg5LyoxMzM (http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/cgi-bin/mrk/_4908ZGxkLzBeMjAwMDAwMDAwMTIzNDU2Nzg5LyoxMzM)


cheers,

Mark

http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com (http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com)
Title: Faulty HP Paper
Post by: Ernst Dinkla on September 24, 2009, 04:34:01 am
Quote from: MHMG
The only OBA-free image layers on RC base I've ever seen are proofing papers and even they still have OBA in the paper core. The Pro Satin sample submitted to me definitely has OBAs in the top coat, and I wouldn't describe it as warm.
cheers,

Mark

http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com (http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com)


Mark,

With RC papers I often wonder what the construction differences are.

As I understand it the RC barriers at the front of the paper base have been white themselves, a TiO2 whitener quality mixed in that no longer degrades the "polyethylene" fast like it did in the early days of RC paper. If the inkjet coating didn't contain OBA and the RC barriers are transparent (including transmission of UV) like the one on the back usually is then the OBA can be used in the paper base itself. Which may need to be a more white base than used in the other versions to compensate the change from white to transparant in the front barrier.

Then there is a micro porous layer (film?) at the top of the inkjet paper, allowing the ink to penetrate but at the same time protecting a finished print. Partly causing the bronzing effect where the ink can't penetrate fast enough. Is that micro porous layer acting like a membrane and is the actual inkjet coating beneath that or is the total composition of the coating the micro porous layer ?

There are 3 layers to add OBA to. It will be most effective in the inkjet coating but it degrades faster there too. It could be added to the polyethylene barrier at the front but as I understand it the combination of TiO2 and OBA's isn't an effective one and the OBA functioning may also cause problems with the polyethylene, in itself not very UV resistant either. For gamut it could be the best spot as all the ink settled will be in front of that layer. Next is the base, starting from a white pulp base adding whitener and OBAs to get a similar effect will ask for higher doses and the total will be more expensive.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/)
Title: Faulty HP Paper
Post by: MHMG on September 24, 2009, 09:01:22 am
Quote from: Ernst Dinkla
Mark,

There are 3 layers to add OBA to. It will be most effective in the inkjet coating but it degrades faster there too. It could be added to the polyethylene barrier at the front but as I understand it the combination of TiO2 and OBA's isn't an effective one and the OBA functioning may also cause problems with the polyethylene, in itself not very UV resistant either. For gamut it could be the best spot as all the ink settled will be in front of that layer. Next is the base, starting from a white pulp base adding whitener and OBAs to get a similar effect will ask for higher doses and the total will be more expensive.

Ernst, you have described the "basic" construction of RC photos well, but RC papers, depending on whether they are designed for inkjet or for silver halide chemistry often have additional coating layers to improve product performance.  With silver halide systems, for example, there is inevitably a supercoat layer of hardened gelatin on top to impart much better abrasion and handling characteristics when the print is dry. That layer can also contain matting agents and sometimes these wonderful little spherical particles the photo industry calls "goofballs" as a slipping/anti-abrasion agent.  One can't get away with this supercoat layer design in inkjet!  

With inkjet, there is typically at least one very important additional layer between the colorant receptor layer and the PE/TiO2 layer. It's a subbing layer that performs an important task. It helps to chemically separate the colorants from the solvent and give the solvent a new place to reside.  Its porosity/solvent absorbing properties are usually and purposefully made different than the colorant receiving layer. The subbing layer's primary role is to wick away the solvent from the colorant receptor layer while attempting (usually quite successfully) to assist in keeping the colorants isolated up in the top layer for better color gamut. The subbing layer's solvent absorption rate doesn't have to work as quickly as the very top coat but it does need to work. Without this extra solvent wicking layer in the print, the solvent would stay trapped in the top surface layer. Allowing the solvent to stay trapped completely with the colorant in the top coat can have adverse affects on print permanence and also promote ongoing off-gassing that fogs up picture frame glass.  The PE layer in the RC paper base prevents the solvent from having a good diffusion pathway into the paper core, and the excess solvent then has an easier time migrating towards the picture frame glass rather than into the paper core.  Even with a good subbing layer for solvent trapping, the inability of the solvent to be sucked up into the very-thick-by-comparison paper core makes RC inket papers more prone than the non RC paper types to leaving a glycerine/glycol haze on picture frame glass. It is also why many printmakers leave considerable time for the RC print to "dry" before framing, and some even go so far as to place "blotter paper" on top of the print for a day or two to help extract solvent before it goes to the framer.  Framers that get framed inkjet prints back from the customer to clean the haze formation on the glass more often than not had framed an RC inkjet print.

As has been noted elsewhere in this thread, there are many private label vendors out there, so different brands can in fact be coming from the same manufacturing source. In fact, many of the inkjet paper manufacturers are only coaters. They buy the RC paper core in bulk and simply add the requested inkjet coatings to contract specification for the private labelers.  RC papers have been so prevalent in traditional photo finishing for the last 30 years that the RC base (complete with already existing OBAs) is produced in huge quantities, hence the very advantageous price point for RC papers.  If no more OBA is added in the additional coatings, many resellers then claim the product is OBA-free (by virtue of the fact that the OBAs aren't in the image bearing layer) when in fact there is still some OBA in the product, and that OBA does still add a little "kick" to overall media whitepoint.  Clearly, both the concentration and the location(s) where the OBAs reside in in the product have strong bearing on just how visually significant the OBA burnout will appear over time. It's why I do give general advice to avoid the super bright white Inkjet papers because it's a good bet the OBAs are heavily in the top coat and will get degraded by gas fade and light fade problems very quickly. Yet when OBAs are used with more discretion, OBA containing papers can turn in good longevity performance.  

AaI&A members can look at the UV included/UV excluded whitepoint values and the corresponding delta B* calculation provided in each test report to get a sense how dependent the media whitepoint is on OBAs.

kind regards,

Mark
Title: Faulty HP Paper
Post by: deanwork on September 24, 2009, 09:54:32 am
Mark,

We've discussed this before. I think you are being very generous to suggest that WR made a typo in  not labeling Pro Satin as having oba content. There are three categories he uses, no oba, some oba, and yes ( oba).

In both the Z3100 data ( that has been up there for over a year and a half) and the new and the more recently posted Z3200 data, both are showing Pro Satin to be oba FREE. That means none. I can't imagine with the significance this presents that it could be a simple typing error. If they don't review their data any closer than THAT it is all suspect in my opinion. If you look at the top of these spread sheets though, he's protected himself legally. In parenthesis it states, "Preliminary", whatever that means.....http://www.wilhelm-research.com/hp/Z3200.html

But as you and Jon Cone have pointed out in the past, a lot of errors exist. Such as Epson Enhanced Matte receiving a bare bulb rating of 45 years. That simply is false. We see degradation of the white base in two or three years on a bulletin board with very low uv exposure or ozone exposure time and time again. Like many of the Red River papers, it simply turns gray.

John
Title: Faulty HP Paper
Post by: deanwork on September 24, 2009, 10:07:52 am
It has been noted in some conservation papers that the reason that albumen papers often tarnish over time and have that strange metallic discoloration is that the gelatin that later silver coating  emulsions had was not there. The albumen simply didn't protect against oxygen in the long term ( though in book form, many of them held up quite well, but you can often see the metallic discoloration around the edges - as in Carlton Watkins giant folio of Yosomite valley done in the 1861 that we used to show in Tucson - http://www.nga.gov/exhibitions/watkinsbro.htm (http://www.nga.gov/exhibitions/watkinsbro.htm). However, gold toning in some cases seems to have had less of the tarnishing problem, if I remember correctly.

-----------
Ernst, you have described the "basic" construction of RC photos well, but RC papers, depending on whether they are designed for inkjet or for silver halide chemistry often have additional coating layers to improve product performance.  With silver halide systems, for example, there is inevitably a supercoat layer of hardened gelatin on top to impart much better abrasion and handling characteristics when the print is dry.
Title: Faulty HP Paper
Post by: MHMG on September 24, 2009, 01:53:10 pm
Quote from: deanwork
Mark,

If you look at the top of these spread sheets though, he's protected himself legally. In parenthesis it states, "Preliminary", whatever that means.....http://www.wilhelm-research.com/hp/Z3200.html

But as you and Jon Cone have pointed out in the past, a lot of errors exist. Such as Epson Enhanced Matte receiving a bare bulb rating of 45 years. That simply is false. We see degradation of the white base in two or three years on a bulletin board with very low uv exposure or ozone exposure time and time again. Like many of the Red River papers, it simply turns gray.

John

Right. I certainly can't speak directly for WIR, but my understanding based on a longstanding friendship and collaboration with Henry Wilhelm, is that you will see "greater than" (>) signs in some of the WIR data, and the "preliminary" designation as well when a product has gone far enough in test to otherwise receive a rated score the manufacturer is satisfied to have reported (for example, "> 100 years") even though the final score hasn't been determined in test yet.  Because industry-sponsored tests are currently conducted with specific endpoint criteria to be exceeded, the use of a "preliminary" finding is really the only option available to the manufacturer (and to WIR using its present testing methodology) to get at least some information about a relatively stable product out to the public at the time of product introduction.  High stability products often take a year or more even in an accelerated test to reach final endpoint failure criteria and thus get an official score, especially when those criteria allow for significant changes to occur.

Product tweaks are sometimes occurring right up to product launch time, so it gets challenging to coordinate meaningful print longevity ratings with product introductions. If a test were to get started, then a production change occur, the test would then at best have to be a "preliminary" finding. A confirmation test would later have to be run in order to ensure that the product change didn't impact the prior testing outcome. Of course, there are other pitfalls in presenting preliminary findings as well.  For one thing, with so many "preliminary" results and tests ongoing, the reports often seem very incomplete.  In contrast to this single endpoint method of rating products, AaI&A posts light fastness test results on regular exposure intervals (10 megalux hours which is equivalent to 5 WIR years, approximately 20 Kodak years on display), so even though AaI&A tests are by their very design routinely "ongoing", there is nothing preliminary about the results that are being posted.  The reported color and tonal accuracy scores correctly relate how the product is performing at each reported exposure dose, and the end-user can then relate this performance to his/her own real world conditions.  That said, AaI&A's more comprehensive testing and reporting method also demands that AaI&A members work harder to draw their conclusions. I believe it's worth the extra effort if print permanence really matters to you.  Also, AaI& doesn't add pre-production or prototype materials to the AaI&A database. Hence, I don't face the issue of product formulation changes prior to product introduction.  But  I do have to be vigilant of commercially available products undergoing reformulation. For example, Museo Silver Rag has apparently been modified recently, so it means AaI&A members need to submit more recent samples, and AaI&A has to find thoughtful ways to identify these product reformulation timelines in its database.

This discussion on OBA burnout and subsequent yellowish/grayish appearance of the paper is a classic case and point where the industry-sponsored endpoint analysis of changes in media white point is simply too liberal to square up with a fine art printmaker's or serious collector's assessment of the onset of paper discoloration. One needs to be informed of the early stages of print deterioration in order to evaluate important differences in OBA performance, and the current industry print life ratings simply don't provide any basis for this judgement.
Title: Faulty HP Paper
Post by: Ernst Dinkla on September 29, 2009, 05:00:37 am
Quote from: deanwork
It has been noted in some conservation papers that the reason that albumen papers often tarnish over time and have that strange metallic discoloration is that the gelatin that later silver coating  emulsions had was not there. The albumen simply didn't protect against oxygen in the long term ( though in book form, many of them held up quite well, but you can often see the metallic discoloration around the edges - as in Carlton Watkins giant folio of Yosomite valley done in the 1861 that we used to show in Tucson - http://www.nga.gov/exhibitions/watkinsbro.htm (http://www.nga.gov/exhibitions/watkinsbro.htm). However, gold toning in some cases seems to have had less of the tarnishing problem, if I remember correctly.


John,

The combination heavy metals and gelatine is the forte of "analogue" B&W photography. The gelatine protecting the metal, the metal hardening the gelatine and acting as a biocide. Probably just luck that the two selected for other properties had that interaction too. Of course more archival processes improve on that resistance but a good darkroom practice with the normal ingredients already delivered very good aging resistance.

My curiosity in this thread is whether the RC barriers reduce the oxidation of the OBA dyes like a gelatine layer protects dyes better. Depending on the layer the OBAs are in there should be differences in their degradation. Another question is whether the HP gloss enhancer (most likely a PVA) does anything like a good gelatine coating should. Depends a lot on the hydrolyses grade of the PVA and gelatine I guess, influencing oxygen/water permeability. If I recall it correctly in fruit drink packaging polyethylene combined with PVA coatings hold the fluids and block oxigens.

I can not find a report of different papers and dye/pigment inks published in a German magazine (most likely done by Image Engineering) where the RC papers showed a good protection against gas fading of dyes if compared to non-RC papers. The dye prints still inferior to pigment prints on light resistance but interesting to notice that aspect. I have to find that again to see what papers were compared.

Mark mentions the proof papers with OBA only in the paper base, between the PE layers. Could be an alternative too.

Epson EEM matte (non RC) was mentioned in the thread. I use it too and noticed the yellow/grey shift (it is already more yellow at the back when fresh). I will switch to the HP Litho Realistic which is less white when fresh if my HP swatch book tells the truth. More like the EEM back or Photorag front and heavier in weight. Anyone who uses that? Price is similar to the EEM here but 36" is the widest available. I noticed that the roll of HP HM Smooth Fine Art Paper white is also warmer than the Photorag rolls I have. More than the differences between Photorag batches. As much a difference between HP HM SF <> Photorag as there is between Photorag <> Photorag Br. Wh.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/)






Title: Faulty HP Paper
Post by: MHMG on September 29, 2009, 08:36:35 am
Quote from: Ernst Dinkla
My curiosity in this thread is whether the RC barriers reduce the oxidation of the OBA dyes like a gelatine layer protects dyes better. Depending on the layer the OBAs are in there should be differences in their degradation. Another question is whether the HP gloss enhancer (most likely a PVA) does anything like a good gelatine coating should. Depends a lot on the hydrolyses grade of the PVA and gelatine I guess, influencing oxygen/water permeability. If I recall it correctly in fruit drink packaging polyethylene combined with PVA coatings hold the fluids and block oxigens.


The report on my website to which I provided a link (free download) earlier in this thread actually shows evidence of a GLOP layer retarding the ozone degradation of the OBA. The print was made on a glossy microporous paper with an Epson R1800 and The GLOP feature was used.  The GLOP stopped about 3 mm from the edge of the paper, and the subsequent gas fading of the OBAs did reveal this GlOP/no GLOP line of demarkation. I show a photo made under blacklight in this report that clearly reveals this GLOP/OBA passivation effect.  That said, for any plastic coating to provide significant barrier properties (whether it be UV, moisture, or gas barrier benefits) it must be several microns thick, and even thicker is better. So, the GLOP layers are simply too thin to provide a longer term solution to OBA degradation caused by ozone and moisture. Likewise, claims of significant UV protection and moisture proofing by various post coatings only work when the coating is thick enough that the aesthetic texture/surface properties of the coated versus uncoated print are very obvious. "Varnishes" that are thin enough to preserve most of the original paper texture can add some gloss, enhanced color gamut, and reduce bronzing/gloss differential effects, but they won't be thick enough to offer serious long term gas and moisture protection.  Even the very best plastics are still quite permeable when they are less than a few microns thick.

As Ernst has also noted, the location and concentration of the OBAs within the product's multi layer construction, have a big impact on the subsequent media whitepoint discoloration caused by OBA degradation. However, as I've also noted earlier, the industry-sponsored light fade and gas fade tests allow too big a white point shift such that OBA degradation, although easily noticeable to relatively discriminating end-users, does not trigger any of the test endpoints.  OBA degradation gets a free pass in these display life predictions.  AFAIK, the only available print permanence testing method that gives any indication of loss of OBA activity and its impact on image appearance is on the AaI&A website.

One last observation about traditional photos that also has some bearing on inkjet media technology. The gelatin layers used in traditional photographs are indeed thick enough to seal the image bearing silver or dyes quite well... provided that the gelatin remains dry. Relative humidity above 75% (a very real world phenomenon in many parts of the world) at human comfort zone temperatures (e.g., 21 deg. C) will enable gelatin to cross its glass transition temperature (Tg) and revert to gel state. It then quickly loses its vapor barrier properties until it later returns again to the dry state. When you see old B&W photos that exhibit "silver mirroring" this silver tarnish occurred during periods when the print was exposed to temperature/humidity conditions that allowed the glass transition temperature of the gelatin to be exceeded. The silver particles oxidize, the silver ions then are free to diffuse through the gelatin layer in its gel state, and they are then later reduced on the surface of the gelatin as a thin metallic layer that causes the metallic sheen on the print.  Ferrotyping of photographs to glass (i.e, when the print sticks to picture glazing and can pick up an unwanted glossiness as well) is also a direct consequence of gelatin crossing its Tg.

The material properties of plastics are really interesting!

cheers,

Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com (http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com)