Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: cjmonty on May 20, 2009, 11:43:51 am
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Ugh.
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I was talking with a Hasselblad reseller the other day, and he said that Hassie has suspended its dealer required-pricing program ...
The phrase "dealer-required" sounds like a type of price-setting that has recently been outlawed in the USA; that sounds a more likely explanation. (Was the dealer perhaps encouraging you to buy some other brand that he carries, and throwing FUD at Hasselblad?)
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sounds like a type of price-setting that has recently been outlawed in the USA; that sounds a more likely explanation.
That sounds plausible. As for the dealer, he was actually casting aspersions on both Hasselblad and Phase in terms of impending doom. But that seems to be pretty common these days.
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That sounds plausible. As for the dealer, he was actually casting aspersions on both Hasselblad and Phase in terms of impending doom. But that seems to be pretty common these days.
I think Ill put this one to bed right now before more fuel is on the fire.
The dealer pricing is the same as it has always been. There is an RRP, they get a discount, they sell at no higher than the RRP and lower if they wish.
Most likely the dealer was what? Canon? Nikon!
Anyway, 'Don't Panic' as they say.
Best,
David
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To be perfectly clear, Hasselblad USA (headquarted in Redmond, WA) currently has a policy in place that requires authorized USA dealers to maintain a "minimum advertised price" (MAP) which enables the dealer network to compete on the merits of its sales ability, technical capacity, and advertising capability, as apposed to solely competing on "lowest price". This provides numerous benefits to end-users, the dealers, and finally Hasselblad. It also helps to maintain the healthy and straight forward dealer network for end-users to do business with. You will find most dealers throughout the US are advocates of a MAP/MSRP policy, with there being only a few specific exceptions.
Federal and state legislation continues to limit the extent of pricing control that a vendor / manufacturer can have over their product in the free market. This can vary greatly from state to state, and will continue to change of the next few weeks/months.
I cannot speak for this type of policy outside the US, however I would only assume Hasselblad maintains similar policies and agreements with dealers throughout the world.
As for indicating "this is the first step towards going out-of-business", that is just plain ridiculous. Nothing but mindless speculation and baseless opinion on the dealer's part.
Regards,
Jordan Miller
Digital Technology Group, Inc.
I was talking with a Hasselblad reseller the other day, and he said that Hassie has suspended its dealer required-pricing program (I believe called M.A.C.). He went further to explain that this is the first step towards going out-of-business.
Anyone hear about this?
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To be perfectly clear, Hasselblad USA (headquarted in Redmond, WA) currently has a policy in place that requires authorized USA dealers to maintain a "minimum advertised price" (MAP) which enables the dealer network to compete on the merits of its sales ability, technical capacity, and advertising capability, as apposed to solely competing on "lowest price". This provides numerous benefits to end-users, the dealers, and finally Hasselblad. It also helps to maintain the healthy and straight forward dealer network for end-users to do business with. You will find most dealers throughout the US are advocates of a MAP/MSRP policy, with there being only a few specific exceptions.
"... straight forward..."?
My view of straight forward is going to www.bhphoto.com, and a 1ds3 says $6999.95, (to everyone, equally), and I say, "OK, here's my AMEX number".
That's straight forward.
All of those straight forward sentences that you wrote above translate into "we'll get every dime out of you that we can squeeze".
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"... straight forward..."?
My view of straight forward is going to www.bhphoto.com, and a 1ds3 says $6999.95, (to everyone, equally), and I say, "OK, here's my AMEX number".
That's straight forward.
All of those straight forward sentences that you wrote above translate into "we'll get every dime out of you that we can squeeze".
Actually George the point of this thread is that Hasselblad have dropped MAP pricing...
Nick-T
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I´m getting more and more the feeling of lobby´ism in this forum.
Random posts as "better DR with slr", "MFDB bankruptcy" , pro/cons MFDB vs SLR with over enthusiastic slr users, "no visible image difference between slr and MFDB", etc.
Is there a possibility that big slr brands are putting their opinion through users in this forum?
It would obviously influence a large potential buyers of MFDB.
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Actually George the point of this thread is that Hasselblad have dropped MAP pricing...
Nick-T
Nick and Jordan:
With all due respect, all those hocus pocus terms seems so out of date. It just reminds me of a bunch of overweight white guys, sitting around a conference table in their Sansabelt elastic-waist pants, with their calculators and their Excel spreadsheets, using business practices that died long ago. The internet has changed everything now -- both with easy to view retailers websites, and also with forums like this, that allow free transfer of real world information. In short, these backroom plots and shenanigans about pricing and such are just plain dead, but I don't think many of these companies realize that.
Transparency is the new buzzword. And "keeping it simple".
I've never understood this whole dealer (markup) network. Seems easy enough for Phase, or anyone, to have some big warehouse in Chicago or Dallas, in the middle of the country, and they eliminate all the dealers, and they make damn sure that the camera works right, right out of the box, and their own website has good instructional videos.
But hey, what do I know? But what I do know is that when I read Jordan's sentences in that prior post, my eyes roll back in my head, and all I see is "run the other way".
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I´m getting more and more the feeling of lobby´ism in this forum.
Random posts as "better DR with slr", "MFDB bankruptcy" , pro/cons MFDB vs SLR with over enthusiastic slr users, "no visible image difference between slr and MFDB", etc.
Is there a possibility that big slr brands are putting their opinion through users in this forum?
It would obviously influence a large potential buyers of MFDB.
I highly doubt Canikon would spend any significant amount of money on astroturfing and risking negative brand impact when it leaks out, when the potential MFDB market is a few thousand units worldwide, while there are millions of dSLRs to be sold...
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I highly doubt Canikon would spend any significant amount of money on astroturfing and risking negative brand impact when it leaks out, when the potential MFDB market is a few thousand units worldwide, while there are millions of dSLRs to be sold...
That's pretty funny.
If your a working photographer, the only "lobbyism" you see on these forums, past some of the obvious brand or format loyalty, is just a single photographer positing what he or she uses to make art and make a living.
As Michael has mentioned this "medium" format section is the closest thing the forum has to a professional section, (same as during the RG days) and what you see isn't a concerted effort to lobby against medium format on behest of Canon, Nikon or Sony.
Camera companies don't pay that much money to photographers that they promote in the first place and no reputable company would put a shill on a forum giving out disinformation. In the world of the 7 year google internet no company would take that chance.
I have multiple cameras, multiple formats and some are good in studio, some aren't, some are great if your shooting slow, some are fast and some are just making less and less economic sense as the business of "commercial" photography changes, mainly because we're not shooting slow anymore and we're not getting any more money whether we have 22, 30, 39 or 60 mpx.
GW is right a lot of the medium format business model is outdated.
To me medium format is a self fulfilling prophecy of difficulty. No buyer asked for a complex buying system, no buyer asked for cameras that are slower, more difficult to learn and that take a flow chart to know what camera back is "allowed" to work on what camera body. No camera buyer wanted to see their Rollei only work with a handful of backs, their Hasselblad limited by back, lens body combinations, or their new Phase with sensor plus, require a return to the maker to add the sensor plus feature.
In fact the few remaining medium format brands, since all are aligned or owned by the digital back makers, have done more to limit medium format use than all the marketing brains at Canon and Nikon combined.
Actually, there are more medium format dealers, reps, and makers on this forum than anyone I see associated with Canon and Nikon.
B
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That's pretty funny.
[snip]
Either you quoted me when you meant to quote gwhitf, or you misread my post.
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Either you quoted me when you meant to quote gwhitf, or you misread my post.
I was agreeing with you and meant to quote christian_raae
Regardless, this really is a thread that should be closed as it does no good for anyone.
I don't like these headlines that say ____________ is closing without some substantial proof and I think they put good people in harm.
Given that, I would love to see medium format become more transparent (and useful).
B
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That sounds plausible. As for the dealer, he was actually casting aspersions on both Hasselblad and Phase in terms of impending doom. But that seems to be pretty common these days.
The real question was what did he have in his hand as he was spitting out the BS.
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How does this specifically work? Hasselblad has a policy to maintain a minimum advertised price but then there are federal and state laws that prohibit the manufacturer from dictating such price control? So if a dealer violates Hasselblad policy and Hasselblad pulls their product from a dealer for violating their policy they have effectively broken the law. I am not saying Hasselblad is breaking the law but to be honest I have never understood the MSRP and legal ramifications for any manufacturer. I mean you see these deals click on price because it is below allowed MSRP etc. It is my understanding that some manufacturers will pull a dealership from weak sales or other problems.
To be perfectly clear, Hasselblad USA (headquarted in Redmond, WA) currently has a policy in place that requires authorized USA dealers to maintain a "minimum advertised price" (MAP) which enables the dealer network to compete on the merits of its sales ability, technical capacity, and advertising capability, as apposed to solely competing on "lowest price". This provides numerous benefits to end-users, the dealers, and finally Hasselblad. It also helps to maintain the healthy and straight forward dealer network for end-users to do business with. You will find most dealers throughout the US are advocates of a MAP/MSRP policy, with there being only a few specific exceptions.
Federal and state legislation continues to limit the extent of pricing control that a vendor / manufacturer can have over their product in the free market. This can vary greatly from state to state, and will continue to change of the next few weeks/months.
I cannot speak for this type of policy outside the US, however I would only assume Hasselblad maintains similar policies and agreements with dealers throughout the world.
As for indicating "this is the first step towards going out-of-business", that is just plain ridiculous. Nothing but mindless speculation and baseless opinion on the dealer's part.
Regards,
Jordan Miller
Digital Technology Group, Inc.
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How does this specifically work? Hasselblad has a policy to maintain a minimum advertised price but then there are federal and state laws that prohibit the manufacturer from dictating such price control? So if a dealer violates Hasselblad policy and Hasselblad pulls their product from a dealer for violating their policy they have effectively broken the law. I am not saying Hasselblad is breaking the law but to be honest I have never understood the MSRP and legal ramifications for any manufacturer. I mean you see these deals click on price because it is below allowed MSRP etc. It is my understanding that some manufacturers will pull a dealership from weak sales or other problems.
I think the MAP policy used to operate on a state by state basis, ie obviously only where it was legal. I would guess such inconsistencies were part of the reason it (the MAP policy) has been discontinued.
Nick-T
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This thread should be removed. Just BS slander. Why not post the name of the sales guy and store?
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Ireland is more likely bancrupt than Hasselblad.
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This thread should be removed. Just BS slander. Why not post the name of the sales guy and store?
I 2nd that.
Denis
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As the originator of the post, I'm tempted to 3rd the motion to close it.
However, some thoughts:
-"Bankruptcy" was a unfortunate choice of words- perhaps I should have used "trouble?"
-The 'seller' wasn't trying to sell me anything- he was extrapolating from an obscure legal change in Hasselblad's vendor rules. I was there regarding something else and he doesnt even sell DSLRs. Anyhow its beside the point.
-I solely use MFDBs and actually started this misbegotten thread because I fear a future where the only professional digital capture is via Canikon or some boutique techjob so expensive it makes the P65+ look like a steal.
The point of this wasn't the seller's, nor my intentions, but rather wondering about the concrete viability of these companies. I am reading a book about the last 72 hours of Bear Stearns, so perhaps I'm a little primed towards expecting problems behind rah-rah corporate press releases these days.
And while a thread that appears to insinuate impending bankruptcy of Hasselblad does seem, well... stupid, it was meant to ask the community for information where there isn't very much clearly available.
At the very least, someone from Hasselblad stood up and clarified the nature and status of MAP pricing. And more to the point, several people were able to comment on that practice.
The fact remains: We are in a global economic contraction. The three or four "major" MFDB makers are bouyed by a very small professional and/or wealthy customer base. They don't have the impulse buyers (oh if I could be a Phase One impulse buyer!), they don't have volume, but they have to work on the expensive cutting edge of technology. Well, at lease of sensor design. Definitely not of LCD design, ha.
Is this feasible? What will happen? Its an interesting question. Happily, It appears that Hasselblad isn't headed toward Chapter 11 anytime soon.
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Please don't misunderstand, as this policy only pertains to advertised prices, and has very little bearing on actual prices paid by end-users. There is nothing significant about "violating" these policies, and rarely presents much of an issue. However, there is some benefit to abiding by these policies if they exist. Federal and State legislation does not necessarily prohibit this type practice, but can encroach on exactly how much control a manufacturer/ vendor has in how "their" products are priced.
How does this specifically work?...
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B&H also happens to be a dealer that follows, in a very strict sense, MAP and MSRP policies provided by various manufacturers (Canon and Hasselblad included). I agree, things should be simple. Dealer and Manufacturer agreements and dealerships have little affect on what photographers actually pay for these types of systems.
If you want simply the best price you can find, on a medium format digital system, you will find a slightly different approach from every manufacturer (PhaseOne, Hasselblad, Leaf, Sinar, etc) in how their products are represented and sold. These systems require a greater level of technical expertise (both user and dealer) than a Canon/Nikon, a significant investment in equipment and resources, and a numerous other system-specific capabilities that have never been required in the 35mm market. I trust this is something you might have recognized already.
If you want a price, just ask. You will get a prompt reply from any medium format digital dealer with a price well below MAP/MSRP.
Do you pay sticker prices for a car?
Regards,
Jordan Miller
Digital Technology Group, Inc.
"... straight forward..."?
My view of straight forward is going to www.bhphoto.com, and a 1ds3 says $6999.95, (to everyone, equally), and I say, "OK, here's my AMEX number".
That's straight forward.
All of those straight forward sentences that you wrote above translate into "we'll get every dime out of you that we can squeeze".
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I agree, transparency is ideal for everyone. And the transparency is there. When you shop for a medium format camera, do you only look for the lowest price you can find? More than likely no. These policies, which have no bearing over what photographers pay for equipment, should not be of any concern to photographers / end-users. All this does is ensure that when you Google search for a Hasselblad / PhaseOne / Leaf / Sinar system, you will see some continuity in the prices ADVERTISED. What you pay, when talking to a dealer is something completely different.
Transparency good. Commoditization of these system, much like we have seen with 35mm, not good.
There is no hocus pocus.
I hope I don't fall into your stereotype, as my wife will soon be disappointed!
Manufacturers need dealers. Where would Hasselblad , PhaseOne, Leaf & Sinar be without the experience and capability of their dealers. As you might know, they would have fewer employees, as most manufacturers representatives came from the dealer / sales side.
Regards,
Jordan Miller
Nick and Jordan:
With all due respect, all those hocus pocus terms seems so out of date. It just reminds me of a bunch of overweight white guys, sitting around a conference table in their Sansabelt elastic-waist pants, with their calculators and their Excel spreadsheets, using business practices that died long ago. The internet has changed everything now -- both with easy to view retailers websites, and also with forums like this, that allow free transfer of real world information. In short, these backroom plots and shenanigans about pricing and such are just plain dead, but I don't think many of these companies realize that.
Transparency is the new buzzword. And "keeping it simple".
I've never understood this whole dealer (markup) network. Seems easy enough for Phase, or anyone, to have some big warehouse in Chicago or Dallas, in the middle of the country, and they eliminate all the dealers, and they make damn sure that the camera works right, right out of the box, and their own website has good instructional videos.
But hey, what do I know? But what I do know is that when I read Jordan's sentences in that prior post, my eyes roll back in my head, and all I see is "run the other way".
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It also has to do with specific legislation passed in the State of Washington, where Hasselblad USA is headquartered.
Regards,
Jordan Miller
I think the MAP policy used to operate on a state by state basis, ie obviously only where it was legal. I would guess such inconsistencies were part of the reason it (the MAP policy) has been discontinued.
Nick-T
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Do you pay sticker prices for a car?
I paid sticker (gladly) for my two 1ds3's. Because it was upfront and easy.
And let's be honest, in these days of Chrysler and GM, do you really want to use that business segment as an analogy for Medium Format Dealers?
Don't get me wrong, this is business, not personal. And it's constructive criticism. I just think the world is changing really, really fast, and these old business models and practices might need review. I am the biggest fan of MFDB's; I want them to continue and survive. But sometimes, you've got to stand up and say, "Isn't there any easier way to do this, that's more transparent and seemingly trustworthy?
"
The very last feeling I want, when I consider buying a MF back, is a similar feeling than when I'm about to buy a new car. The last thing.
If I was a MF manufacturer, (or their ad agency), I would not even call MFDBs a piece of photographic equipment. I would say it was medical equipment. I'd completely disassociate it with normal photography. I'd invent some fake scientist guy, who just happened to stick one of these "medical imagers" onto the back of a 645 camera by mistake, "and I'll be damned, it made a pretty nice picture". But if you keep it filed under Medical instead of Photographic, then your whole Smoke And Mirrors approach might continue to work. We all know that medical equipment needs training, and supervision, and multiple phone calls, and service contracts, and VA warranties; everybody expects that. No one would ever question it. But as soon as you call a p65 or whatever the hassie equivalent is, a CAMERA, then of course, you invite comparisons to the 5d2 and all the LCD controversy, and "why does it cost this much, when a 5D2 is four grand?". Then, you can say, (with your white lab coat on), "It costs that much because it's a medical device; it's not a camera, it's an Imager".
Dead serious.
Otherwise, it's just too damn easy to go to B&H, buy a 5d2, and start making money tomorrow. No training, no service contract, no nothing. Just make money.
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I will apologize if my early posts came off a bit heated, as I was initially dumbfounded by the title and first couple of threads. I was hoping to clarify some information, and offer some insight into what might be happening. Relating the very near discontinuation of Hasselblad's MAP policy with possible bankruptcy is ludicrous, and I was only looking to provide some additional info, along with David Grover and Nick-T. It now clear of everyone else's intention with this thread, and I hope I have been able to clarify my own.
Regards,
Jordan Miller
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You paid "sticker price" for your Canon's because B&H (or some other dealer) was honoring Canon's MAP policy. My comparison was not to the automobile industry, but to the approach taken in making an investment beyond that of a $5-10K Canon. When talking to, and developing a relationship with our customers, the last thing we want to present is an concept of hiding something or misleading with information. We do however want to make sure we are providing the right product, at the most competitive price, with the necessary level of support.
You can thank the manufactures for your feelings of medical equipment. Dealers, myself included, have spent decades overcoming issues, shortfalls, inconsistencies, while helping to further the development and innovation in these system, and it is this investment in time, energy, equipment, staff, and resources that is valuable to photographers. I believe everyone recognizes this value, and it is in everyone's best interest (professional and financially) that this value not be be lost.
A Hasselblad H3DII-50 or PhaseOne P65+ is not a Canon EOS 5D Mark II. Never will be.
I would hope by my presence on this board, and these post at midnight, that this all but "smoke and mirrors".
Regards,
Jordan Miller
I paid sticker (gladly) for my two 1ds3's. Because it was upfront and easy.
And let's be honest, in these days of Chrysler and GM, do you really want to use that business segment as an analogy for Medium Format Dealers?
Don't get me wrong, this is business, not personal. And it's constructive criticism. I just think the world is changing really, really fast, and these old business models and practices might need review. I am the biggest fan of MFDB's; I want them to continue and survive. But sometimes, you've got to stand up and say, "Isn't there any easier way to do this, that's more transparent and seemingly trustworthy?
"
The very last feeling I want, when I consider buying a MF back, is a similar feeling than when I'm about to buy a new car. The last thing.
If I was a MF manufacturer, (or their ad agency), I would not even call MFDBs a piece of photographic equipment. I would say it was medical equipment. I'd completely disassociate it with normal photography. I'd invent some fake scientist guy, who just happened to stick one of these "medical imagers" onto the back of a 645 camera by mistake, "and I'll be damned, it made a pretty nice picture". But if you keep it filed under Medical instead of Photographic, then your whole Smoke And Mirrors approach might continue to work. We all know that medical equipment needs training, and supervision, and multiple phone calls, and service contracts, and VA warranties; everybody expects that. No one would ever question it. But as soon as you call a p65 or whatever the hassie equivalent is, a CAMERA, then of course, you invite comparisons to the 5d2 and all the LCD controversy, and "why does it cost this much, when a 5D2 is four grand?". Then, you can say, (with your white lab coat on), "It costs that much because it's a medical device; it's not a camera, it's an Imager".
Dead serious.
Otherwise, it's just too damn easy to go to B&H, buy a 5d2, and start making money tomorrow. No training, no service contract, no nothing. Just make money.
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I agree, transparency is ideal for everyone. And the transparency is there. When you shop for a medium format camera, do you only look for the lowest price you can find? More than likely no. These policies, which have no bearing over what photographers pay for equipment, should not be of any concern to photographers / end-users. All this does is ensure that when you Google search for a Hasselblad / PhaseOne / Leaf / Sinar system, you will see some continuity in the prices ADVERTISED. What you pay, when talking to a dealer is something completely different.
Transparency good. Commoditization of these system, much like we have seen with 35mm, not good.
There is no hocus pocus.
I hope I don't fall into your stereotype, as my wife will soon be disappointed!
Manufacturers need dealers. Where would Hasselblad , PhaseOne, Leaf & Sinar be without the experience and capability of their dealers. As you might know, they would fewer employees, as most manufacturers representatives came from the dealer / sales side.
Regards,
Jordan Miller
Digital Technology Group, Inc.
I think I am getting tired of this whole MF BS. AND Yes I want to look for the lowest price and I do not give shit about dealer support. Most people who buy MFD are Pros who have been shooting with DB for years. I want to know what a dealer who took some classes with manufactures can teach me about my new Leaf or P1 after me using them every day for a decade.. This whole pricing scheme is ridiculous. This whole dealer support is ridiculous as well. Employees of Leaf authorized dealer think that WLF on AFI has an adjustable diopter. Leaf support informs you must have Leopard on your Mac to run AFI so you buy another MacBook Pro just to figure out that it runs perfect on your old computer as well. When you order a diopter just to be able to focus your camera it takes months to get it. Support????
MFD dealer support and pricing is like an used car dealer support. You get screwed at the beginning but you get a promise of a free oil change that you never going to use.
I certainly hope that more and more people will buy cars through internet and force The Family Business out, but than again you do not get to kick the tire.
Andre
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It is funny, Jordan! So many posts in a short time!
Do you remember the Leaf adapter I paid for almost a year ago? And I paid by direct wire transfer
You can find time to defend Hasselblad but you cannot find time to reply my eMails an PMs on the forum. I have no communication with you for more than two months.
I am think that you and your dealership will be insolvent sooner than a good company from Sweden.
Yevgeny .You paid "sticker price" for your Canon's because B&H (or some other dealer) was honoring Canon's MAP policy. My comparison was not to the automobile industry, but to the approach taken in making an investment beyond that of a $5-10K Canon. When talking to, and developing a relationship with our customers, the last thing we want to present is an concept of hiding something or misleading with information. We do however want to make sure we are providing the right product, at the most competitive price, with the necessary level of support.
You can thank the manufactures for your feelings of medical equipment. Dealers, myself included, have spent decades overcoming issues, shortfalls, inconsistencies, while helping to further the development and innovation in these system, and it is this investment in time, energy, equipment, staff, and resources that is valuable to photographers. I believe everyone recognizes this value, and it is in everyone's best interest (professional and financially) that this value not be be lost.
A Hasselblad H3DII-50 or PhaseOne P65+ is not a Canon EOS 5D Mark II. Never will be.
I would hope by my presence on this board, and these post at midnight, that this all but "smoke and mirrors".
Regards,
Jordan Miller
Digital Technology Group, Inc.
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I think I am getting tired of this whole MF BS. AND Yes I want to look for the lowest price and I do not give shit about dealer support. Most people who buy MFD are Pros who have been shooting with DB for years. I want to know what a dealer who took some classes with manufactures can teach me about my new Leaf or P1 after me using them every day for a decade.. This whole pricing scheme is ridiculous. This whole dealer support is ridiculous as well. Employees of Leaf authorized dealer think that WLF on AFI has an adjustable diopter. Leaf support informs you must have Leopard on your Mac to run AFI so you buy another MacBook Pro just to figure out that it runs perfect on your old computer as well. When you order a diopter just to be able to focus your camera it takes months to get it. Support????
MFD dealer support and pricing is like an used car dealer support. You get screwed at the beginning but you get a promise of a free oil change that you never going to use.
I certainly hope that more and more people will buy cars through internet and force The Family Business out, but than again you do not get to kick the tire.
Andre
so true, my own experience with mfb dealers are also disappointing. if you don't know what you want from the very first beginning you are lost. 10% real information and 90% biased opinion.
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Ireland is more likely bancrupt than Hasselblad.
I'm not sure what you meant with this comment, but Ireland is hugely bankrupt, and in fact they don't even know how badly they are in the red. Cut's to services everywhere, increased taxes etc. Huge crash in the economy, and withdrawing of investment from foreign businesses.
Things are bad because the 'booming' economy was built on a very narrow and fragile foundation.
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"... straight forward..."?
My view of straight forward is going to www.bhphoto.com, and a 1ds3 says $6999.95, (to everyone, equally), and I say, "OK, here's my AMEX number".
That's straight forward.
George,
Just updated....
http://www.hasselblad.com/products/lenses-...ccessories.aspx (http://www.hasselblad.com/products/lenses-and-accessories.aspx)
Go to one of the links and you will see RRP pricing on all lenses and accessories.
.....Aaaand before anyone jumps, we are not getting rid of our dealers. It is a step to 'straight forwardness' if you like, George.
As for the rest of the thread, thanks to Jordan for clarifying the 'MAP' situation and the only resting comment is that we are not going backrupt.
David
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Maybe the mods can change the title of this thread to 'Hasselblad eliminating MAP practice?' The thread itself is interesting, but the title is horrible.
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so true, my own experience with mfb dealers are also disappointing. if you don't know what you want from the very first beginning you are lost. 10% real information and 90% biased opinion.
so true in paris too...
examples :
"every digital back are good for shift and tilt..."
"a phase one on an arca ? no problem, works exactly as the leaf..."
"yes profoto air is the same as R"
"Hasselblad H wide angles are far better than rodenstock digital"
...
but they are pro dealers and need money to buy a new car... i have the feeling that in US you have more noledgeables dealers !
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This min/MSRP pricing across US of A does exist & thriving quite well. 1 1/2 yrs back I purchased "Tempur-pedic" mattress @ $3000 MSRP I thought I could shop around & save a buck. Only thing I could save was shipping & sales tax cost. Tempur-pedic has a strict policy of maintaining their price, which Hasselblad could easily follow.
An early poster mentioned @ MF manuf could create a big box type warehouse in middle of nowhere. So in lieu of us trying to reach dealer on late Sat, one can reach 24/7 a 800 support #. Why have inventory everywhere. Have Credit card on file & they will ship the demo camera on trial basis/demo... I believe that is where Hassey is heading. I agree with Andre N's POV, along with gwhitf's point. I do feel symapthetic & appreciative of Jordan Miller's efforts but I do see writing on the wall. Last month another dealer selling Phase One & Hasselblads in Detroit area closed their doors Terrific successful peeps but sign of times., I am not saying it is right to let go of loyal knowledgeble dealers but so were the thousands of loyal auto support staff.
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I certainly hope that more and more people will buy cars through internet and force The Family Business out, but than again you do not get to kick the tire.
Andre
Why could you not kick the tire? If the company/warehouse/service was located in a central major city, ie Chicago, StLouis,Dallas, etc, just hop on a flight, drive to some anonymous business park somewhere, walk in, (past the service window), and down the hall to the Demo Studio, where all the backs would be set up and working.
Have one price for the back, (box pusher price), and if you wanted to sign up for Additional Software Training, you could.
If Nike can have NikeTown on Michigan Avenue, why couldn't there be a HassieTown, or a PhaseCity, or a LeafVillage, or a SinarMedicalComplexWithLabCoatsAndFrowningScientists? Hell, bring the kids, and make a vacation out of it!
Aren't you amazed on some level, that Canon/Nikon hasn't already done this, on Fifth Avenue...?
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Yevgeny,
I was not aware this issue was still pending. We will certainly have resolution here, as you and your DC office will be contacted shortly. Thank you for you concern, however insolvency is certainly not a relevant matter for us. Shall we move this off-forum?
Regards,
Jordan Miller
.
It is funny, Jordan! So many posts in a short time!...
...I am think that you and your dealership will be ...
Yevgeny .
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I have put out there before and I am sure many of the pros will agree with me.. change the language..digital backs are no longer accurately described as medium format.. that implies the existence of larger format..and film formats in general as we use to know them..and in my world that is ancient history.
It's been 10 years now that professionals have been moving into digital.. start by changing the name of this forum.."Digital backs and large Sensor Photography" this would include any sensor with a dimension of at least 36mm. maybe they are out there, and I am sure I will read about them, but most professionals shoot in this area.. sure I have a smaller than 35 digital that I use professionally but most of my work is with a digital back and larger sensor..
Leica is changing the language, introducing their "leica format" as it is not an old film format but a new digital creation.
I think as photographers we realize that everything has changed from 1995..where a sinar meant one clear thing and a nikon meant an entirely different clear thing.. now you can have a digital back on a sinar that is lower resolution than a nikon..
I for one think the small format vs medium format debate is a big circular test track.. with no checkered flag.. and not really interesting watching
the 'goround.
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so true, my own experience with mfb dealers are also disappointing. if you don't know what you want from the very first beginning you are lost. 10% real information and 90% biased opinion.
so true in paris too...
examples :
"every digital back are good for shift and tilt..."
"a phase one on an arca ? no problem, works exactly as the leaf..."
"yes profoto air is the same as R"
"Hasselblad H wide angles are far better than rodenstock digital"
Sounds like you have some experience with one or more specific poor quality dealers. I hope you'll reconsider allowing this to taint your opinion of dealers in general.
I want to know what a dealer who took some classes with manufactures can teach me about my new Leaf or P1 after me using them every day for a decade..
I do. I am not bragging, and I am not claiming exclusivity. In fact I'm quite confident that if you took my job you would understand. It is a product of how a good dealer does business. My entire job is technical knowledge and support. A good dealer's technical services agent is uniquely situated as they have personal and direct relationships with their customers as well as personal and direct relationships with the engineers and internal technical team of the manufacturers.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
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it would be much better for us when hasselblad and others would bypass their dealers and sell to professionals direct. with almost all questions i had in the past which are not solvable with pure intelligence they had to get in contact with the manufacturer. this is what i can do by myself easier and faster without dealing with somebody who does not even want to understand the problem. i would prefer a strong direct connection and a web-store where we can place our orders without paying a handling fee for nothing and only have to wait longer till the goods arrive. they should better invest parts of the savings in a real professional service network.
gwhitf love the idea, a hasselblad world would really be cool !
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I find this to be a very good idea, and do agree with you, Paul.
Best regards,
Thierry
... start by changing the name of this forum.."Digital backs and large Sensor Photography" this would include any sensor with a dimension of at least 36mm...
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Doug,
that thing has couple buttons and just a few function. Can you imagine the dealer support and technical knowledge if you guys were selling Nikon or Canons with all the programs and whistles.
When in Chicago stop over to my studio and teach me a thing or two and maybe I will become your client. For example I want to work how to change ISO to usable 800.
Andre
Sounds like you have some experience with one or more specific poor quality dealers. I hope you'll reconsider allowing this to taint your opinion of dealers in general.
I do. I am not bragging, and I am not claiming exclusivity. In fact I'm quite confident that if you took my job you would understand. It is a product of how a good dealer does business. My entire job is technical knowledge and support. A good dealer's technical services agent is uniquely situated as they have personal and direct relationships with their customers as well as personal and direct relationships with the engineers and internal technical team of the manufacturers.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
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Doug,
that thing has couple buttons and just a few function. Can you imagine the dealer support and technical knowledge if you guys were selling Nikon or Canons with all the programs and whistles.
When in Chicago stop over to my studio and teach me a thing or two and maybe I will become your client. For example I want to work how to change ISO to usable 800.
Andre
We in fact do sell and support Canon, and yes, learning how to set the Master/Slave functions on the 430/580 with auto-ratios between channels, or the FTP wireless setup for 5DIIs to shoot raw+JPG to card and JPG only to computer (not as easy as with a 1Ds III), or keeping up with which OS updates break what Canon tethering issues require time and effort as well. How many levels up in Canon's central 800 number technical support line you'd have to get to speak with someone similarly well versed in each of these is a painful thought. The documentation is just terrible.
Out of curiosity about that ISO800, PM me (to keep the thread clean) with your digital back model, firmware version, and what software and settings you are converting with.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
-
We in fact do sell and support Canon, and yes, learning how to set the Master/Slave functions on the 430/580 with auto-ratios between channels, or the FTP wireless setup for 5DIIs to shoot raw+JPG to card and JPG only to computer (not as easy as with a 1Ds III), or keeping up with which OS updates break what Canon tethering issues require time and effort as well. How many levels up in Canon's central 800 number technical support line you'd have to get to speak with someone similarly well versed in each of these is a painful thought. The documentation is just terrible.
Out of curiosity about that ISO800, PM me (to keep the thread clean) with your digital back model, firmware version, and what software and settings you are converting with.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
Great to hear that about Canon and Nikon but is your knowledge and support on the way of selling them at a fix advertised price?
Andre
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Sounds like you have some experience with one or more specific poor quality dealers. I hope you'll reconsider allowing this to taint your opinion of dealers in general.
of course... for computers for instance, i have a good dealer, and sometimes their prices aren't the cheaper ones... but i still buy from this place, because of their good support !
But i know a bunch of places where i won't buy anything at any price...
PS to DOUG : it was nice to deal with you for the kapture back !
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Today, I am announcing the birth of my new business. It's called "George's Add Another Layer Inc."
Business Model presented when I went to get my loan, (from Lehman Brothers, oops): What I do is, I buy lots of digital backs from whatever dealer in the country will sell them to me the cheapest. I make sure and buy the longest warranty I can, and then, I mark them up some more, and I resell them again to an End User. I'm referred to in the 'biz as a VARfVAR, which of course means "Value Added Reseller from a Value Added Reseller".
If some guy has something wrong, I just do a Google search on the Interweb, and find the answer, or if something really goes wrong, I call the guy I bought it from.
The only thing is: I've heard rumors of a new category called VARfVARfVAR, which means I've got to be careful who I sell to, or else somebody's gonna steal my business model.
Of course I'm kidding about (most of) this. My base frustration centers really around Phase, but it could just as easily be Hasselblad or Leaf, in that, they just put this product out there, and pawn off the problems onto the Dealers to deal with.
EDIT: My other point is: The entire photo world seems like it's changing almost overnight. It's very quickly becoming a Canon/Nikon/Apple/iPod/Blackberry/Email/JustGoodEnough world out there, and while these MF companies plot their spreadsheets and use their VARs, the entire rest of the world is just ordering stuff from B&H and getting on with their life. And that ratio is changing fast. Like it or not, it's just happening. Stick your head in the sand if you like, like that SouthPark episode. Look at The Selby, or even that Chessum reference today on Jackanory. 35 is just good enough, like it or not, and money talks. I might not like it either, but anyone is a fool to not notice what's going on around them. Easy, cheap, and hassle-free -- that is the New Reality. So many guys here, grabbing their crotch, and angsting over every pixel, when the whole world just wants to gobble up the next bit of 72dpi information and move on with their life.
And for the record, Chessum is a damn good photographer, and to me, this picture is lame. I was shocked when I saw it, that he turned it in, and it ran. Is this the New Reality? Set it to ASA 800 and shoot it available light? Looks like The Kitchen Manager shot the job.
http://www.whatsthejackanory.com/2009/05/c...in-the-kitchen/ (http://www.whatsthejackanory.com/2009/05/chessum-does-de-niro-in-the-kitchen/)
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Today, I am announcing the birth of my new business. It's called "George's Add Another Layer Inc."
George, you haven't been paying attention to the real world business model. Think derivatives, think ING.
You can't make any money selling product, you gotta sell promises.
Here's what you do. Get a small office on Wall St. You know, sublease from Lehman, they've got plenty of room.
Then build a website offering things that haven't happened yet. Leaf Shutter lenses, Wide Angles, high iso software for all medium format cameras and of course, don't forget the high def lcd to go on the back.
A good model maker can knock out some prototypes in about two days and from announcement to delivery you have at least two years. Think Photokina to Photokina.
Then you take deposits, with dates TBA. When you get those angry e-mails and calls, just publish a statement that says the manufacturer won't disclose information until product is ready to ship.
If you really get in a bind, say your working on the windows version of the software, that's another two years of float.
If you have to ship something to avoid those pesky class action things, just go to ebay and buy some used stuff. You can always ship it out as loaners, with a promise to deliver the new stuff when it comes out and don't forget the interest on the leases.
That way you hold all those deposits, convert them to some usable currency, (I would suggest the HK dollar), and if things get worse, you just buy other companies, in fact try to buy all the camera companies, that way your too big to fail and the government will write you a few billion to stay afloat as long as you promise to make solar powered cameras next year.
Get the picture? Ha, get the picture, that's pretty funny.
B
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George, you haven't been paying attention to the real world business model. Think derivatives, think ING.
You can't make any money selling product, you gotta sell promises.
Here's what you do. Get a small office on Wall St. You know, sublease from Lehman, they've got plenty of room.
Then build a website offering things that haven't happened yet. Leaf Shutter lenses, Wide Angles, high iso software for all medium format cameras and of course, don't forget the high def lcd to go on the back.
A good model maker can knock out some prototypes in about two days and from announcement to delivery you have at least two years. Think Photokina to Photokina.
Then you take deposits, with dates TBA. When you get those angry e-mails and calls, just publish a statement that says the manufacturer won't disclose information until product is ready to ship.
If you really get in a bind, say your working on the windows version of the software, that's another two years of float.
If you have to ship something to avoid those pesky class action things, just go to ebay and buy some used stuff. You can always ship it out as loaners, with a promise to deliver the new stuff when it comes out and don't forget the interest on the leases.
That way you hold all those deposits, convert them to some usable currency, (I would suggest the HK dollar), and if things get worse, you just buy other companies, in fact try to buy all the camera companies, that way your too big to fail and the government will write you a few billion to stay afloat as long as you promise to make solar powered cameras next year.
Get the picture? Ha, get the picture, that's pretty funny.
B
LOL
I think I wanna be King Cooter
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George,
Just updated....
http://www.hasselblad.com/products/lenses-...ccessories.aspx (http://www.hasselblad.com/products/lenses-and-accessories.aspx)
Go to one of the links and you will see RRP pricing on all lenses and accessories.
.....Aaaand before anyone jumps, we are not getting rid of our dealers. It is a step to 'straight forwardness' if you like, George.
As for the rest of the thread, thanks to Jordan for clarifying the 'MAP' situation and the only resting comment is that we are not going backrupt.
David
thats a lot better, its easier to buy, and when all the bits are grouped up together, you see bits that you didnt know you wanted to buy. but you need to add a buy now option, so you can take advantage of the impulse purchase- like when ive just got that chunky cheque in - and you feel like you cant go wrong, and the big jobs are going keep on pouring in (this was before the recession).
paul
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When I read the topic I just had to shake my head and wonder what inspires people to come up with this stuff - and secondarily, why the board administrator has not changed the title to preserve legitimacy.
There have been rumors that Hasselblad has been going out of business for what, let's see - the past four years now? Yet mysteriously, continues to earn a profit and invest in the next level of technology that - now wait a minute - photographers actually BUY.
It makes me wonder if some of the chatter on this thread is from photographers who shoot with medium-format digital (or have not?) I expect a slew of spit and flames from a few users who have already commented on this forum, but for the rest: focus on the tools you are using (or need to use) to produce outstanding images that are different enough to get you noticed and hired.
And from the early days of UNIX command line: Think before you type.
John
---
hotwire-digital.com
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There are many ways of looking at the selling proposition, but I think it´s a mistake to knock the local dealer too hard.
Yes, no internet existed in the days when I used a couple of ´blads every day, but there certainly were a hell of a lot of postal dealers who invariably produced the lowest prices. I never used them because I liked the option of walking a couple of hundred yards to the local Hasselblad retailer and actually being able to hold the product in my hands. I bought all my Hass and Nikon stuff from him.
Then, one day I wanted to get something in a hurry and dropped in to the shop for a chat and a purchase. Except that I couldn´t do it anymore. Why? Because retail price maintenance had been abolished for some time and the new reality - it didn´t just happen yesterday, guys - was that Hasselblad had dropped him from its dealer list because he could not order in sufficient quantity to make it worthwhile for them - or so he informed me and I have no reason to doubt him as he remained the area´s Leica dealer for many years after that. On pressing him further, it turned out that he could not take delivery from Hasselblad at the prices that dealers in London were RETAILING!
And that is only one industry and a single commodity. It exists in almost every other too, which is why you generally only find supermarkets today.
Take a look at your High Streets; if you live in the UK you will see the shingles of more charities than retailers. To conclude that open-market price warfare is good for the consumer is simply to buy the hokum that the dominant power is handing you. Somebody suggested setting up a megadump in the middle of some town somewhere and just taking the plane there. I used to think it was only the Brits would spend five quid in petrol to save one in the shop - guess not anymore.
The essence of the thing is this: you can´t survive long in a society where only the richest conglomerate can operate. If the local business structure falters, as photographers you will feel the earthquake. Let´s not all pretend we work for Mad Ave or wherever that world lives today; the mainstay of most photographers is and always has been the local community, the small factory, the larger shops, the social life of the place, the relationships built upon local knowledge, reputation and trust. When you allow the small town and its business to vanish, all you get are photo-opportunities for the next generation of ghost-town scavenger.
So pay a little more; have somebody you can actually speak with, to whom you can return something for attention should it go wrong. Cutting everything down to that last buck is tantamount to slitting your own throat.
Rob C
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Well said Rob.
Charities don't pay rates etc, so it's not surpising that so many can afford to take high street slots. I was walking down my local provincial town recently, and, barring big ticket items, I couldn't really see anything that couldn't be bought in some of the bigger supermarkets - and easier parking too.
You get rid of the local competition, and suddenly the conglomerate can apply whatever pricing, terms and conditions they like. Bad for the consumer.
However, my problem is that there is nobody in the province who does sell the sort of equipment I am looking for. Went into the Calumet in the main town - the ONLY 'professional' chain on the island, and they couldn't even begin to price me an Ultima 35, let alone let me see one.
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Why could you not kick the tire? If the company/warehouse/service was located in a central major city, ie Chicago, StLouis,Dallas, etc, just hop on a flight, drive to some anonymous business park somewhere, walk in, (past the service window), and down the hall to the Demo Studio, where all the backs would be set up and working.
Have one price for the back, (box pusher price), and if you wanted to sign up for Additional Software Training, you could.
If Nike can have NikeTown on Michigan Avenue, why couldn't there be a HassieTown, or a PhaseCity, or a LeafVillage, or a SinarMedicalComplexWithLabCoatsAndFrowningScientists? Hell, bring the kids, and make a vacation out of it!
Aren't you amazed on some level, that Canon/Nikon hasn't already done this, on Fifth Avenue...?
Off topic or perhaps not? Nikon House just off Fifth at Rockefeller Center in the 70's did repair cameras, lenses and lend out equipment to the faithful. Too bad that they closed up shop. It was a great place to stop in and feel up the exotic stuff.
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Off topic or perhaps not? Nikon House just off Fifth at Rockefeller Center in the 70's did repair cameras, lenses and lend out equipment to the faithful. Too bad that they closed up shop. It was a great place to stop in and feel up the exotic stuff.
Hi
They should change the name of this thread as the topic is becoming interesting. In Sydney I used to enjoy going into the camera shops in the film days. Buying film, chemistry & looking at some equipment. Fletchers was a great camera store but they went broke a few years back. The labs have merged into one & the 0ne hour film runs are gone. Now I search on the web or check eBay for the current value of camera gear. I rarely go into a camera store anymore. Used to own a 500CM Hasselblad for 18 years, really liked the build quality. Finally after struggling with the manual focus I sold it for what I paid ( got my money back ) & bought the Mamiya 645AF. I find it hard to get too excited about a camera these days. The new Hasselblad H is built by Fuji, nothing wrong with that but the Hasselblad of old is gone. I like the new Canon cameras & I will not get attached as they seem to have a shelf life of 3 years. I do like digital but this game has changed. It reminds me of the car industry. The best era was the 1950s-1970s when each car looked different. One of the best examples was the Ford Mustang ( 1965-1968 ) a great design & this car can be built from the ground. I look at cars today & very few if any are exciting. They all look the same.
Denis
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The new Hasselblad H is built by Fuji, nothing wrong with that but the Hasselblad of old is gone...
Here we go again! This is as much misinformation as the title of this thread.
The H camera is and always has been built in Goteborg by many of the same people who built the V system. Fuji have absolutely no involvement with the body whatsoever, software, firmware or otherwise.
The viewfinder is built by Fuji as it is an optical part, as are the lenses except for the shutter which is designed and manufactured in Goteborg.
The lenses are designed also by us in Goteborg. We have our own lens designer. The HTS for example is exclusively built in Goteborg.
The Fuji GX645 is built by us in Goteborg.
As for 'Hasselblad of old is gone', the engineer who designed the H shutter system has been at the company for over 35 years.
I have repeated this information may times on this board and I wonder why it doesn't sink in?
Best,
David
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Base on my experience to Hasseblad H bodies and Fuji GX645 body.
I would like to confirm Hasselblad H and Fuji GX body is almost the same.
Just body color a bit different. Firmware different.
But both works fine. I still believe H body + HC lens with any digitalback is one of the best combination.
Focus is very fast and accurate. Shutter release is also quick response.
Able to manual refocus after auto focus lock and etc.
Too bad that Hasselblad decide to close their system.
And I just hope the shutter life on H body is longer.
I found shutter life last about 30,000 - 40,000 shots only.
I feel Hasselblad V and CF lens character doesn't match well to digitalback.
But the body is robust and maintenance cost is very low.
Kitty
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Here we go again! This is as much misinformation as the title of this thread.
As for 'Hasselblad of old is gone', the engineer who designed the H shutter system has been at the company for over 35 years.
I have repeated this information may times on this board and I wonder why it doesn't sink in?
Best,
David
'Hasselblad of old is gone'. The V series cameras (and RB67s and others) acknowledged that working photographers (not press or sports) needed a tool that you hold to take photographs; that a wide angle lens like 40mm on 6x6 or 50mm on 6x7 gave a particular viewpoint.
With the introduction of digital sensors the "engineers" of old somehow forgot that a 35mm lens on 6 x4.5 are not the same on a 48x36mm sensor. And now (finally) with a 28mm lens we are told that it will not fully utilise a 44mm x 56mm sensor. A rectangular sensor without a rotating back is a marketing triumph over ergonomics; or worse that the potential of a sensor/lens combination will be software constrained because some bean-counter thinks the publishing world only uses 3:4 images.
Hasselblad (and others) ignored the simple human ergonomics of photography; that holding the camera should not be a gymnastic feat; they entered the realm of Canon, Nikon etc once the photographer needs to pause and rotate the camera. Rotating the camera body when working on a tripod or camera support; or when the AD wants horizontals and verticals, is tedious at best.
6x4.5 cameras where designed for a market niche; like wedding photographers; with some of the attributes of 6x6+ but lower cost. Small-area digital sensors have meant it has been a scramble ever since.
And while I'm bitchen; if Hasselblad engineers thought a 110mm f2, or a 50mm f2.8 had merit why don't the modern, like minded, engineers think the same? Where's the f1.4 90mm, the 45mm f2? Etc.
If there was a 28mm lens that covered 44mm x 44mm, and a 90mm f1.4 we'd be back where Hasselblad was 10 years ago. Until then the "Hasselbald of old is gone"; we might as well use a Cankon. (or put our 110mm f2 on a Contax with a Phase back)
Wollom
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Hasselblad (and others) ignored the simple human ergonomics of photography; that holding the camera should not be a gymnastic feat; they entered the realm of Canon, Nikon etc once the photographer needs to pause and rotate the camera. Rotating the camera body when working on a tripod or camera support; or when the AD wants horizontals and verticals, is tedious at best.
Well there is at least one camera with a rotating digital back - Hy6
Great if you want to use a waist level finder too!
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EDIT: My other point is: The entire photo world seems like it's changing almost overnight. It's very quickly becoming a Canon/Nikon/Apple/iPod/Blackberry/Email/JustGoodEnough world out there, and while these MF companies plot their spreadsheets and use their VARs, the entire rest of the world is just ordering stuff from B&H and getting on with their life. And that ratio is changing fast. Like it or not, it's just happening. Stick your head in the sand if you like, like that SouthPark episode. Look at The Selby, or even that Chessum reference today on Jackanory. 35 is just good enough, like it or not, and money talks. I might not like it either, but anyone is a fool to not notice what's going on around them. Easy, cheap, and hassle-free -- that is the New Reality. So many guys here, grabbing their crotch, and angsting over every pixel, when the whole world just wants to gobble up the next bit of 72dpi information and move on with their life.
And for the record, Chessum is a damn good photographer, and to me, this picture is lame. I was shocked when I saw it, that he turned it in, and it ran. Is this the New Reality? Set it to ASA 800 and shoot it available light? Looks like The Kitchen Manager shot the job.
http://www.whatsthejackanory.com/2009/05/c...in-the-kitchen/ (http://www.whatsthejackanory.com/2009/05/chessum-does-de-niro-in-the-kitchen/)
Chessum's shot is truly bad. He is a good shooter, very good, but Christ that is awful. Its like something the bus boy would have shot with his P&S and posted to his FaceBook page: "Look who was in the kitchen last night!"
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Hasselblad (and others) ignored the simple human ergonomics of photography; that holding the camera should not be a gymnastic feat; they entered the realm of Canon, Nikon etc once the photographer needs to pause and rotate the camera. Rotating the camera body when working on a tripod or camera support; or when the AD wants horizontals and verticals, is tedious at best.
6x4.5 cameras where designed for a market niche; like wedding photographers; with some of the attributes of 6x6+ but lower cost. Small-area digital sensors have meant it has been a scramble ever since.
...yes in the past everything was better oh but even than i much preferred the pentax 6x7 over the RB/RZ ;-))
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old habits have a long life, David: I have experienced the very same. Once something is in the mind of people, even by proving them the contrary, you will have a hard time to get it out.
Best regards,
Thierry
I have repeated this information may times on this board and I wonder why it doesn't sink in?
David
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Here we go again! This is as much misinformation as the title of this thread.
The H camera is and always has been built in Goteborg by many of the same people who built the V system. Fuji have absolutely no involvement with the body whatsoever, software, firmware or otherwise.
The viewfinder is built by Fuji as it is an optical part, as are the lenses except for the shutter which is designed and manufactured in Goteborg.
The lenses are designed also by us in Goteborg. We have our own lens designer. The HTS for example is exclusively built in Goteborg.
The Fuji GX645 is built by us in Goteborg.
As for 'Hasselblad of old is gone', the engineer who designed the H shutter system has been at the company for over 35 years.
I have repeated this information may times on this board and I wonder why it doesn't sink in?
Best,
David
Hi David
I stand corrected.
Denis
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Here we go again! This is as much misinformation as the title of this thread.
The H camera is and always has been built in Goteborg by many of the same people who built the V system. Fuji have absolutely no involvement with the body whatsoever, software, firmware or otherwise.
The viewfinder is built by Fuji as it is an optical part, as are the lenses except for the shutter which is designed and manufactured in Goteborg.
The lenses are designed also by us in Goteborg. We have our own lens designer. The HTS for example is exclusively built in Goteborg.
The Fuji GX645 is built by us in Goteborg.
As for 'Hasselblad of old is gone', the engineer who designed the H shutter system has been at the company for over 35 years.
I have repeated this information may times on this board and I wonder why it doesn't sink in?
David, is the currently sold Fuji the equivalent of an H3DII, or of some other model? Does it have DAC?
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"As for 'Hasselblad of old is gone', the engineer who designed the H shutter system has been at the company for over 35 years."
Who is manufacturing the electronics and mechanical parts of the H/GX645? The materials, fittings, buttons etc. feels very Fuji-like to me.
We wouldn't come up (=annoy you ;-) with this stuff when the H1/2/3 would feel like a AF-200series Hasselblad and not like a Fuji who is "accidently" in a "partnership" with Hasselblad and at the same time, employees in Göteborg went from over 400 to 60...
I've seen only basic assembly work in Göteborg (new building), nothing like the machining and manufacturing-procesess in "old Hasselblad-times".
A Bentley Continental might be a fine car too, assembled in GB (even the engine!), but it's still a Volkswagen with German parts and has very little to do with an Arnage...
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David, is the currently sold Fuji the equivalent of an H3DII, or of some other model? Does it have DAC?
The current Fuji GX645 is the equivalent of an H2F.... I think but would have to check Monday. Suffice to say it is only available in Japan and we hardly manufacture any as most Japanese prefer to buy the Hasselblad branded models.
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"As for 'Hasselblad of old is gone', the engineer who designed the H shutter system has been at the company for over 35 years."
Who is manufacturing the electronics and mechanical parts of the H/GX645? The materials, fittings, buttons etc. feels very Fuji-like to me.
We wouldn't come up (=annoy you ;-) with this stuff when the H1/2/3 would feel like a AF-200series Hasselblad and not like a Fuji who is "accidently" in a "partnership" with Hasselblad and at the same time, employees in Göteborg went from over 400 to 60...
I've seen only basic assembly work in Göteborg (new building), nothing like the machining and manufacturing-procesess in "old Hasselblad-times".
A Bentley Continental might be a fine car too, assembled in GB (even the engine!), but it's still a Volkswagen with German parts and has very little to do with an Arnage...
Like any modern company we have a wide range of suppliers from all over the globe.
The 200 series V systems were the least successful of all Hasselblad cameras and complex / costly to build and as equal to repair.
The changes in Goteborg happened long after the H program started. Fuji is not 'accidentally' in partnership with Hasselblad. We chose them for their capabilities in optical manufacturing.
Once again with a tired yawn I state that Fuji has no involvement with the H body, software, hardware or firmware or anythingware.
They carry out the final manufacture of the Viewfinder, but for example, some parts come from the UK. The software for the metering is suprise suprise, written in Goteborg.
The 'machining and manufacturing' in old Hasselblad times meant the V and H System were not cost effective to build. Now they are.
So would you prefer a New kind of Hasselblad or no Hasselblad at all? That is your choice. If it is the latter, then nobody is forcing you to buy one.
I apologise for my cynical tone, but I continue to go over the same ground (as I have done in particular with you georgl over on getdpi) with the same answers to the same points.
I don't expect everybody to like us, but right now we provide the tightest, integrated most comprehensive medium format (whatever that is) system on the market, with ten lenses, two zooms a bunch of accessories, a Tilt Shift solution that works and the ability to continue to use your beloved Zeiss lenses with exposure metering and focus confirmation. We can still improve and I am not that arrogant to say it is perfect. But look at what we produced only three years ago and what we do now. For any technology company that is impressive.
Good weekend to all,
David.
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Chessum's shot is truly bad. He is a good shooter, very good, but Christ that is awful. Its like something the bus boy would have shot with his P&S and posted to his FaceBook page: "Look who was in the kitchen last night!"
Agreed, that's beyond terrible. If anyone new to the business had taken that shot they'd never work again.
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<snip>
So would you prefer a New kind of Hasselblad or no Hasselblad at all? That is your choice. If it is the latter, then nobody is forcing you to buy one.
I apologise for my cynical tone, but I continue to go over the same ground (as I have done in particular with you georgl over on getdpi) with the same answers to the same points.
<snip>
Most people don't like change, even if it's for the better. You'll always get people saying the new Hassy is nothing compared to new Hassy. Film to digital. Old Mustang compared to the new Mustang. Well, the old Mustang is better
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The current Fuji GX645 is the equivalent of an H2F.... I think but would have to check Monday. Suffice to say it is only available in Japan and we hardly manufacture any as most Japanese prefer to buy the Hasselblad branded models.
The H2F has DAC, but only CF back support, is that right?
David, are you able to make any statement on why Hasselblad continues to make only two-tone bodies? Are they legally prevented from making a black or dark grey body for some reason?
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The H2F has DAC, but only CF back support, is that right?
David, are you able to make any statement on why Hasselblad continues to make only two-tone bodies? Are they legally prevented from making a black or dark grey body for some reason?
why do you want that ? i don't like that someone could think i´m using a mamiya ;-)
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David, are you able to make any statement on why Hasselblad continues to make only two-tone bodies? Are they legally prevented from making a black or dark grey body for some reason?
While we're at it; can I please also ask for a D3 style Hi-Res screen on the back, and a vertical grip????
Am I asking for too much
thanks
am
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why do you want that ? i don't like that someone could think i´m using a mamiya ;-)
David, make csp's next Hasselblad pink, please
csp, don't worry. Anyone who says anything about your Mamiya, you can blind with the built-in pop-up flash (as long as they are close to you).
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Once again with a tired yawn I state that Fuji has no involvement with the H body, software, hardware or firmware or anythingware.
They carry out the final manufacture of the Viewfinder, but for example, some parts come from the UK. The software for the metering is suprise suprise, written in Goteborg.
David.
Why can't I upgrade firmware of Fuji GX645 through H1D back?
While upgrade H1 and H2 has no problem.
With the same firmware 9.4.1 on both.
Fuji GX645 can't set mirror lockup delay like Hasselblad.
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@David Grover
We enjoy your statements and inside views about Hasselblad and respect your patience with "old Hasselblad lovers"
I believe you that the H/GX645 isn't manufactured by Fuji for most parts, what I was trying to say is that it has nothing in common with older Hasselblads and the suppliers don't seem to be the same as with the 200-series but very Fuji (or Mamiya)-like.
The H-series is a ordinary 645-system with central shutters - I think it must be pretty obvious why we "old Hasselblad-users" struggle with it.
"The 'machining and manufacturing' in old Hasselblad times meant the V and H System were not cost effective to build. Now they are."
Yes, I think everybody who knows the V-series vs. the H-series sees and feels the difference.
Hasselblad is bloody expensive, it was with the H-system and it is still with the V-system. I'm fine with that, but cost cutting on such high-end-professional-tools is a nightmare! The film back of the H was as expensive (+-100€) as the V-magazine (it's one of the few parts that are really comparable, also the viewfinders) - where did the money go? In our business/country that's called "Rendite-Optimierung" or "Entfeinerung" - management-BS for cost-cutting on the back of the customers...
It's not just Hasselblad, my M8 has a copal-shutter, loud as hell and can be found in cameras 1/10 the price, of course it is a "custom-design", it just fell of the same production-line, looks and sounds the same...
Maybe it was time to stop manual 6x6 and go AF-645. But half of the design-changes of the H-System didn't had the photographer in mind... Nice camera, but not a Hasselblad.
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@David Grover
We enjoy your statements and inside views about Hasselblad and respect your patience with "old Hasselblad lovers"
I believe you that the H/GX645 isn't manufactured by Fuji for most parts, what I was trying to say is that it has nothing in common with older Hasselblads and the suppliers don't seem to be the same as with the 200-series but very Fuji (or Mamiya)-like.
The H-series is a ordinary 645-system with central shutters - I think it must be pretty obvious why we "old Hasselblad-users" struggle with it.
"The 'machining and manufacturing' in old Hasselblad times meant the V and H System were not cost effective to build. Now they are."
Yes, I think everybody who knows the V-series vs. the H-series sees and feels the difference.
Hasselblad is bloody expensive, it was with the H-system and it is still with the V-system. I'm fine with that, but cost cutting on such high-end-professional-tools is a nightmare! The film back of the H was as expensive (+-100€) as the V-magazine (it's one of the few parts that are really comparable, also the viewfinders) - where did the money go? In our business/country that's called "Rendite-Optimierung" or "Entfeinerung" - management-BS for cost-cutting on the back of the customers...
It's not just Hasselblad, my M8 has a copal-shutter, loud as hell and can be found in cameras 1/10 the price, of course it is a "custom-design", it just fell of the same production-line, looks and sounds the same...
Maybe it was time to stop manual 6x6 and go AF-645. But half of the design-changes of the H-System didn't had the photographer in mind... Nice camera, but not a Hasselblad.
Sorry to hear that David as I like the lenses(not love) but think the body is truly awful.
I do like the viewfinder a lot though. Maybe have fuji build the next body then? None of the fuji cameras I have used in the past ever had mirror slap
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I don't expect everybody to like us, but right now we provide the tightest, integrated most comprehensive medium format (whatever that is) system on the market, with ten lenses, two zooms a bunch of accessories, a Tilt Shift solution that works and the ability to continue to use your beloved Zeiss lenses with exposure metering and focus confirmation. We can still improve and I am not that arrogant to say it is perfect. But look at what we produced only three years ago and what we do now. For any technology company that is impressive.
Probably true. Work well done, and nicely said.
Geoff
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The H2F has DAC, but only CF back support, is that right?
David, are you able to make any statement on why Hasselblad continues to make only two-tone bodies? Are they legally prevented from making a black or dark grey body for some reason?
CF and the discontinued CFH backs.
Every other camera is black (HY6 excluded!) so why not make something different?
In seven years with Hasselblad I have never met a user who didn't buy because of the colour of the camera?
David
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Why can't I upgrade firmware of Fuji GX645 through H1D back?
While upgrade H1 and H2 has no problem.
With the same firmware 9.4.1 on both.
Fuji GX645 can't set mirror lockup delay like Hasselblad.
As the GX is only available in Japan Fuji assume you will simply take the camera to a service centre.
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@David Grover
We enjoy your statements and inside views about Hasselblad and respect your patience with "old Hasselblad lovers"
I believe you that the H/GX645 isn't manufactured by Fuji for most parts, what I was trying to say is that it has nothing in common with older Hasselblads and the suppliers don't seem to be the same as with the 200-series but very Fuji (or Mamiya)-like.
The H-series is a ordinary 645-system with central shutters - I think it must be pretty obvious why we "old Hasselblad-users" struggle with it.
...
Maybe it was time to stop manual 6x6 and go AF-645. But half of the design-changes of the H-System didn't had the photographer in mind... Nice camera, but not a Hasselblad.
The H series is no ordinary 645 system. Period. It is the only 645 system with an electronic central shutter - a hell of a lot more accurate than Zeiss by the way... and I will simply repeat my statement above...
"...we provide the tightest, integrated most comprehensive medium format (whatever that is) system on the market, with ten lenses, two zooms a bunch of accessories, a Tilt Shift solution that works and the ability to continue to use your beloved Zeiss lenses with exposure metering and focus confirmation."
I am afraid we cannot be in business for a hobby. There is more than 500,000 V system cameras in the world with an established second hand market.
Man (ie us) cannot live on V system alone, so the H system is there to pay the bills, pay me and keep us running as a successful company.
...But half of the design-changes of the H-System didn't had the photographer in mind... Nice camera, but not a Hasselblad.
This is a deeply irritating statement. Do you think that all the people in Hasselblad (many who built the V system) went out of their way to build a camera that did not appeal to the modern working professional? It is as Hasselblad as any other product that has left the factory. We innovated at the start and we continue to innovate now. Otherwise we would have fallen by the wayside like Contax, Bronica, Rollei etc etc..
David
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Probably true. Work well done, and nicely said.
Geoff
Thankyou Geoff. Its very much appreciated!
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While we're at it; can I please also ask for a D3 style Hi-Res screen on the back, and a vertical grip????
Am I asking for too much
thanks
am
Not at all.
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I believe Hasselblad H is one of the best system no doubt.
David, do you have shutter actuation life for H body?
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I believe Hasselblad H is one of the best system no doubt.
David, do you have shutter actuation life for H body?
Thankyou!
100,000 is the recommended service check.
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This is a deeply irritating statement. Do you think that all the people in Hasselblad (many who built the V system) went out of their way to build a camera that did not appeal to the modern working professional? It is as Hasselblad as any other product that has left the factory. We innovated at the start and we continue to innovate now. Otherwise we would have fallen by the wayside like Contax, Bronica, Rollei etc etc..
David
David, anyone knows that talking about "the modern working professional" as if it encompasses all photographers, is nonsense. When the H series cameras first appeared some of us 'professionals' tried it and decided that if a medium format version of a 35mm camera was required the H might do; but a Pentax 67 was probably better.
I've posted before on about the deficiencies of camera systems that required rotating the body of the camera for horizontals and verticals. And until the introduction of the 28mm lens and the coming H60 'real' full frame back "the modern working professionals" haven't had the tools that old fashioned professionals had 30 years ago.
In the automotive world it's not uncommon for a chassis developed for one application to be adapted as a quick response to a change in demand. Then there's time to develop a purpose-designed platform. The H isn't a bad camera; it's just nowhere near as good as it could be.
And as for Contax etc falling by the wayside; the brands maybe; the cameras? Perhaps it's time you got outside more...
Cheers
Wollom
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Not at all.
David,
Is this a hint or tease?
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David - keep smiling you are talking with fanatical eccentrics in the main..
I dont know if I am using different bodies made on Mars - but I shoot with 200 and 500 and H series blad bodies - the H series is by far ..I mean very very far a superior engineered body in every respect. My only gripe is that I have to maintain a 205TCC for fast focal work with F/FE/Cfe series lenses - I want a focal plane H series body. Only other complaint is that I prefer a 6x6 world..sorry it is my dirty little secret - 645 is too 35mm for me - Anyone who prefers teh 200 or 500 series body cqan not be serious! - As for Cfi/CFe/ V mount lenses - thre is a Cf adaptor for the H series which allows thier use - so if you are silly enough to see a difference between Ziess and Fujiblad - and dont need DAC or a genuine wide or metadata ..well thats catered for as well - I know I use one ...LOL
did I mention that I would like a focal plane body ? hmm..( is ok - there adaptors to use my lovely F/FE lenses with Contax/Mamiya ) but seriously, I just feel dirty and cheap using anythign except a blad hahahahaha
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What I meant with "ordinary 645-system with central shutter" was that it is ordinary EXCEPT for the central shutter, I have no idea how reliable it is but I would prefer it to the gigantic, loud and vibration-prone fp-shutters anytime. I have no doubt that it is electronically controlled and therefore much more precise than the old mechanical Compur! But the electronics and the extra features of the H-system are not my problem, the integration of the whole system is well made and much better than the other 645-systems - propably a secret of it's success!? I'm not talking about all changes made in contrast to the old V-system, I'm not a traditionalist, it was a huge opportunity to change basic problems of this system. I'm talking about the unnecessary changes the fate of the skilled craftsmen in Göteborg and the result, especially in materials (outer plastic shell, the inner sheet-steel-construction of the viewfinder, buttons...). That was always the first thing anybody noticed when handling a Hasselblad 200/500 in comparison to any other system of the last decades - not only the feeling, but also the actual robustness after decades (yes, I've seen broken plastic-camera-shells myself and know about mechanical properties)! Modern plastics have many advantages but it's not the perfect choice for hq-camera-systems! No, the mechanical design/material/assembly isn't better than a Mamiya anymore, they can be lucky that Mamiya and the other (cheaper) MF-systems had so much trouble integrating digital technology - build-quality isn't an argument anymore for Hasselblad in favor of the others (like it was for 50 years)!
It's like the discussion about lenses, they're not actually bad (in fact, I find every comparison with 35mm-systems or 10MP-Leica ridiculous), they're just not as unique and designed/manufactured to the uppermost standards anymore - you can find the same properties and performance with Mamiya, too. But Hasselblad is the upper-end, if you're not satisfied with certain details of those >>10k$-systems, you're in trouble!
Maybe you're seeing it from an entirely different perspective, but I think diversity is important and we don't need another "me too", "works fine for most users" and it makes my heart bleed that a system like the Hy6 seems to disappear (not because of high-manufacturing costs or missing buyers!) and other big names become "exchangeable". I've seen it with other industries, they slip slowly into mediocracy, cut costs where consumers don't seem to bother. But after years of working this way, people start to realize what they lost - when it's already too late!
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What I meant with "ordinary 645-system with central shutter" was that it is ordinary EXCEPT for the central shutter, I have no idea how reliable it is but I would prefer it to the gigantic, loud and vibration-prone fp-shutters anytime. I have no doubt that it is electronically controlled and therefore much more precise than the old mechanical Compur! But the electronics and the extra features of the H-system are not my problem, the integration of the whole system is well made and much better than the other 645-systems - propably a secret of it's success!? I'm not talking about all changes made in contrast to the old V-system, I'm not a traditionalist, it was a huge opportunity to change basic problems of this system. I'm talking about the unnecessary changes the fate of the skilled craftsmen in Göteborg and the result, especially in materials (outer plastic shell, the inner sheet-steel-construction of the viewfinder, buttons...). That was always the first thing anybody noticed when handling a Hasselblad 200/500 in comparison to any other system of the last decades - not only the feeling, but also the actual robustness after decades (yes, I've seen broken plastic-camera-shells myself and know about mechanical properties)! Modern plastics have many advantages but it's not the perfect choice for hq-camera-systems! No, the mechanical design/material/assembly isn't better than a Mamiya anymore, they can be lucky that Mamiya and the other (cheaper) MF-systems had so much trouble integrating digital technology - build-quality isn't an argument anymore for Hasselblad in favor of the others (like it was for 50 years)!
I'm sorry that some skilled craftsmen in Gothenburg lost their jobs. The reality was that Gothenburg was losing millions and millions of euros back then and it had to change.
Oh and lets put this to rest, the H body is not made of plastic, It's made of steel and alloys ie metal.
It's like the discussion about lenses, they're not actually bad (in fact, I find every comparison with 35mm-systems or 10MP-Leica ridiculous), they're just not as unique and designed/manufactured to the uppermost standards anymore -
"not actually bad" High praise indeed (not).
The fact is that the HC lenses either match or out-perform the Zeiss glass of old. That's a fact.
Nick-T
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The fact is that the HC lenses either match or out-perform the Zeiss glass of old. That's a fact.
Perhaps in MTF charts and so on, yes, but there are still crowds of old photographer lamenting the loss of the Zeiss look. There is no way really to know what would happen if they were to offer Zeiss AF lenses side-by-side with the HC line. Maybe most people would stay, maybe most people would switch.
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I'm sorry that some skilled craftsmen in Gothenburg lost their jobs. The reality was that Gothenburg was losing millions and millions of euros back then and it had to change.
Oh and lets put this to rest, the H body is not made of plastic, It's made of steel and alloys ie metal.
"not actually bad" High praise indeed (not).
The fact is that the HC lenses either match or out-perform the Zeiss glass of old. That's a fact.
Nick-T
while i dont like all the design aspects of the h1/2 etc, its streets ahead of an old clunker like the v system. also, i remember the v system being incredibly unreliable- there where always heaps in for repair and the the hassy dealer here.
ive always thought the whole love of the V-system was a well crafted marketing exercise.
paul
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Having migrated from a Mamiya AFD to a Hasselblad H2F I can say that the Hassey is in a completely different league. I've tested Mamiya glass against HC lenses. The 35mm Mamiya is a joke compared to the HC 35. The last iteration of the Mamiya 80 f/2.8 before the digital version is not up to the HC 80 in terms of contrast, color, and to a lesser extent, falloff. The latest version of the Mamiya 120 macro, prior to the D version, is an excellent performer, although it's manual focus while the HC 120 macro is auto focus. The Hassey viewfinder is bright, the Mamiya is not so bright. The option of using a waistlevel finder on the Hassey is a terrific option, especially for copystand work. The H cameras are highly customizeable/programmable. I've been impressed with Hasselblad's commitment to R&D in hardware and software. Customer support is excellent. In terms of price versus performance, Hasselblad is competitive. My biggest complaint is that if something goes wrong with the camera or back, it has to go to Denmark instead of somewhere in the U.S. That's a bummer...
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And as for Contax etc falling by the wayside; the brands maybe; the cameras? Perhaps it's time you got outside more...
Cheers
Wollom
As much as I would like to be writing this from the comfort of Hasselblad's evil underground lair, I am actually on one of my 200 travel days outside the office, on this occasion in the Russian Federation meeting photographers.
I certainly agree that the H camera is not for everyone (you can't please all of the people all of the time I accept) but the 1000's of users who have invested in the system I believe are not stupid and would not have done so if it didn't serve their needs admirably and not just 'good enough'.
David
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I'm talking about the unnecessary changes the fate of the skilled craftsmen in Göteborg and the result, especially in materials (outer plastic shell, the inner sheet-steel-construction of the viewfinder, buttons...). That was always the first thing anybody noticed when handling a Hasselblad 200/500 in comparison to any other system of the last decades - not only the feeling, but also the actual robustness after decades (yes, I've seen broken plastic-camera-shells myself and know about mechanical properties)! Modern plastics have many advantages but it's not the perfect choice for hq-camera-systems!
It's like the discussion about lenses, they're not actually bad (in fact, I find every comparison with 35mm-systems or 10MP-Leica ridiculous), they're just not as unique and designed/manufactured to the uppermost standards anymore - you can find the same properties and performance with Mamiya, too. But Hasselblad is the upper-end, if you're not satisfied with certain details of those >>10k$-systems, you're in trouble!
Georgl,
I feel I am flogging a dead horse here and perhaps should not continue beating my head against a brick wall. Anyway, if you are passionate about the engineers at Goteborg as you say then you do them a disservice by continuing to spread misinformation, which travels fast on the internet.
As stated earlier in this thread and about 1000 times myself, the H camera is built in the same way as the V system. Alloy chassis with a steel casing. No difference there.
As you confidently state 'fact' about Hasselblad lenses I assume you have taken a large selection with an H3D camera and corresponding lenses from other manufacturers and performed multiple tests and comparisons. I would love to see the results. Please post them.
The H lenses perform equally and in most cases better than their Zeiss counterparts. But I am sure you saw that on your tests also? Have you actually picked up an H lenses and examined its construction? I don't believe you have as otherwise you would not draw this conclusion.
The 'unnecessary' changes were not so. Unfortunate very much so. But I would prefer Hasselblad to be in business for another 50 years, if not longer.
Best,
David
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Perhaps in MTF charts and so on, yes, but there are still crowds of old photographer lamenting the loss of the Zeiss look. There is no way really to know what would happen if they were to offer Zeiss AF lenses side-by-side with the HC line. Maybe most people would stay, maybe most people would switch.
Crowds? I am sorry Carsten but on my travels I of course meet the odd photographer who brings up the old Zeiss question which again is quickly laid to rest when they see reuslts for themselves. But angry mobs of placard waving protesters just does not figure anymore. If you can prove me wrong with a couple of images then please do so.
I actually saw some images two weeks ago shot with a Contax and a Hasselblad CF back. I was really suprised how much CA I saw in the shots compared to my daily reference of HC lenses.
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David - keep smiling you are talking with fanatical eccentrics in the main..
I dont know if I am using different bodies made on Mars - but I shoot with 200 and 500 and H series blad bodies - the H series is by far ..I mean very very far a superior engineered body in every respect. My only gripe is that I have to maintain a 205TCC for fast focal work with F/FE/Cfe series lenses - I want a focal plane H series body. Only other complaint is that I prefer a 6x6 world..sorry it is my dirty little secret - 645 is too 35mm for me - Anyone who prefers teh 200 or 500 series body cqan not be serious! - As for Cfi/CFe/ V mount lenses - thre is a Cf adaptor for the H series which allows thier use - so if you are silly enough to see a difference between Ziess and Fujiblad - and dont need DAC or a genuine wide or metadata ..well thats catered for as well - I know I use one ...LOL
did I mention that I would like a focal plane body ? hmm..( is ok - there adaptors to use my lovely F/FE lenses with Contax/Mamiya ) but seriously, I just feel dirty and cheap using anythign except a blad hahahahaha
In Phocus 1.2 there is a square crop option built in, so consider it solved.
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Thank you David,
that was very funny.
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I actually saw some images two weeks ago shot with a Contax and a Hasselblad CF back. I was really suprised how much CA I saw in the shots compared to my daily reference of HC lenses.
Which Contax lenses are you referring to?
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In seven years with Hasselblad I have never met a user who didn't buy because of the colour of the camera?
I note that you didn't answer the question. Every other camera is not black, some are grey, some have brown accents, and so on.
While I understand that the H3DII is almost certainly the best digital 645 camera ever built in almost every way, Hasselblad seems to have forgotten how to stroke photographer's egos. In a fact-based world, this is not serious, but a lot of the passion for Hasselblad is not there any more. People get excited about the excellence of the results, but not about the camera itself. The viewfinder, yes, but not the shell. I think Hasselblad needs to re-learn this. If you pick up a V camera, and then you pick up the H, there isn't the same feeling.
Marc (fotografz) showed how handsome the camera's basic shape is when he posted photos of his "black" H in the getdpi forums. The two-tone brown really is a nasty choice. I do have to admit to really liking the little H symbols in the rubber on the focusing ring of the lenses though. Clearly someone still gets it. You can build the best camera, or you can build a legend. The V camera was a legend. The H not so much. It is just a good tool.
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Crowds? I am sorry Carsten but on my travels I of course meet the odd photographer who brings up the old Zeiss question which again is quickly laid to rest when they see reuslts for themselves. But angry mobs of placard waving protesters just does not figure anymore. If you can prove me wrong with a couple of images then please do so.
I actually saw some images two weeks ago shot with a Contax and a Hasselblad CF back. I was really suprised how much CA I saw in the shots compared to my daily reference of HC lenses.
Everything has more CA than the HC lenses with DAC applied. I have not seen any lens that outperforms HC lenses in that area. I too once kept my CF lenses to use on the H but over 2 years ago I sold the whole lot and never looked back. The only ones I ever hear rambling about the CF lenses are either those that aren't using HC lenses or the ones that are in the early stage of using HC lenses.
With regard to looks and handling. I found the 500 having the ergonomics of a brick. The H is much better in handling but if anything I would like Hasselblad to have a close look at the D3 or D300 and see how that handles. The H doesn't fall as nicely in your hands as the Nikon. With the Nikon my right-hand thumb falls exactly in place and the body becomes part of my hand/arm. With the H there is no indent at the right places making me work much harder to hold the camera for longer periods of time. I much rather have them look at that than the colors to be frank. Or what about the contact for a remote release that in between the grip and the lens which can only be reached with Japanes (read very small, long and sensitive) fingers? There is a dozen of things I can think of to make the H a much nicer camera, the color setup is not one of them.
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...Hasselblad's evil underground lair...
David
The idea of a lair might be more plausible if the camera bodies were black!
But seriously, David, I'm glad you're prepared to duke it out here.
While I've got your attention will you mention to the happy elves in the H labs that non-optional software cropping of the output of the 60mpx sensor when using HCD lenses throws away the great potential for panoramic or closer-to-square crops that use the maximum 'good' image circle and sensor real estate? Ideally leave it up to the photographer to decide how much of the image circle is good enough; or or at least provide a smart cropping tool that allows any crop with a 60mm diagonal.
Wollom
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The idea of a lair might be more plausible if the camera bodies were black!
But seriously, David, I'm glad you're prepared to duke it out here.
While I've got your attention will you mention to the happy elves in the H labs that non-optional software cropping of the output of the 60mpx sensor when using HCD lenses throws away the great potential for panoramic or closer-to-square crops that use the maximum 'good' image circle and sensor real estate? Ideally leave it up to the photographer to decide how much of the image circle is good enough; or or at least provide a smart cropping tool that allows any crop with a 60mm diagonal.
Wollom
Elves? Evil Trolls, please.
Don't worry the second part of your post is already in hand.
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I note that you didn't answer the question. Every other camera is not black, some are grey, some have brown accents, and so on.
While I understand that the H3DII is almost certainly the best digital 645 camera ever built in almost every way, Hasselblad seems to have forgotten how to stroke photographer's egos. In a fact-based world, this is not serious, but a lot of the passion for Hasselblad is not there any more. People get excited about the excellence of the results, but not about the camera itself. The viewfinder, yes, but not the shell. I think Hasselblad needs to re-learn this. If you pick up a V camera, and then you pick up the H, there isn't the same feeling.
Marc (fotografz) showed how handsome the camera's basic shape is when he posted photos of his "black" H in the getdpi forums. The two-tone brown really is a nasty choice. I do have to admit to really liking the little H symbols in the rubber on the focusing ring of the lenses though. Clearly someone still gets it. You can build the best camera, or you can build a legend. The V camera was a legend. The H not so much. It is just a good tool.
Didn't I answer the question? There is no legal prevention on a black H camera as far as I am aware.
I also think in todays economy there is less room for legends and more of a need for tools that do the job.
We are also lucky though that many semi-professionals and amateurs choose to buy Hasselblads, that we are very grateful for and still cater for this market with occasional bespoke pieces.
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Which Contax lenses are you referring to?
I am afraid I can't remember specifically so it would not be fair to comment. I simply remember thinking 'what is the fuss all about?' when I saw the results from this / these lenses.
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Yevgeny,
I was not aware this issue was still pending. We will certainly have resolution here, as you and your DC office will be contacted shortly. Thank you for you concern, however insolvency is certainly not a relevant matter for us. Shall we move this off-forum?
Regards,
Jordan Miller
Digital Technology Group, Inc
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Dear Mr.Miller
I am so sorry to bother you again on the board.
I was waiting off-forum patiently, but you and your company do not answer my e-mails. I got only one PM from you (May 21 2009) and in your PM you said that you do not read your PMs. The absence of communication from
Digital Technology Group, Inc is worrying
Shall I send my lawyers or collectors to DTG?
Yevgeny