Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Digital Image Processing => Topic started by: wolfnowl on May 18, 2009, 02:43:49 am

Title: B&W Printing: Creating the Digital Master Print
Post by: wolfnowl on May 18, 2009, 02:43:49 am
Hi Folks:

Andrew over at the Tao of Photography (http://tao-of-digital-photography.blogspot.com/2009/05/photographers-must-have-new-book-on-b.html) has an interesting write-up on this new book about creating digital prints from B&W images.  Sounds good enough to make me want to check it out...

Mike.

Title: B&W Printing: Creating the Digital Master Print
Post by: KeithR on May 18, 2009, 10:03:12 am
Thanks for the info! I'll have to check it out.
Title: B&W Printing: Creating the Digital Master Print
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on May 18, 2009, 03:29:44 pm
Quote from: wolfnowl
Hi Folks:

Andrew over at the Tao of Photography (http://tao-of-digital-photography.blogspot.com/2009/05/photographers-must-have-new-book-on-b.html) has an interesting write-up on this new book about creating digital prints from B&W images.  Sounds good enough to make me want to check it out...

Mike.
Well, he certainly liked it! I don't have many books on photography, but the reveiew suggests that this might be a good one to get.  It's not listed on amazon.co.uk (yet). Thanks for the pointer.

Jeremy
Title: B&W Printing: Creating the Digital Master Print
Post by: JeffKohn on May 18, 2009, 03:36:27 pm
I went ahead and ordered given the relatively affordable price, I enjoy reading books about photography and haven't picked up a new one in a while. I don't have huge expectations that it will be some revelation about B/W printing, I can't imagine there's too much ground to cover that hasn't already been covered in other similarly-themed books. But if it's an interesting read and well-printed  (which sounds to be the case from Andy's review), I'll be happy with it even if it doesn't radically change my approach to digital B/W.
Title: B&W Printing: Creating the Digital Master Print
Post by: Philip Weber on May 18, 2009, 07:24:30 pm
Quote from: wolfnowl
Hi Folks:

Andrew over at the Tao of Photography (http://tao-of-digital-photography.blogspot.com/2009/05/photographers-must-have-new-book-on-b.html) has an interesting write-up on this new book about creating digital prints from B&W images.  Sounds good enough to make me want to check it out...

Mike.



Does anyone have any experience with the author's software - PercepTool?

Phil
Title: B&W Printing: Creating the Digital Master Print
Post by: Kevin Gallagher on May 19, 2009, 05:03:03 am
Thanks Mike, I wasn't aware of this site, lots of good reading!!
Title: B&W Printing: Creating the Digital Master Print
Post by: geotzo on May 19, 2009, 05:39:14 am
Has anyone got it yet? It appears to be in stock on Amazon.com. Is that true?
Title: B&W Printing: Creating the Digital Master Print
Post by: Philip Weber on May 19, 2009, 02:33:24 pm
Quote from: geotzo
Has anyone got it yet? It appears to be in stock on Amazon.com. Is that true?


Yes, they have it. Mine is due tomorrow.

Phil
Title: B&W Printing: Creating the Digital Master Print
Post by: slc on May 20, 2009, 03:16:53 pm
Quote from: Philip Weber
Does anyone have any experience with the author's software - PercepTool?

Phil

Yes, I just had a workshop with George DeWolfe and we used the PercepTool and it is a MUST HAVE. The Windows version is currently in beta testing and should be available soon - I'm waiting very eagerly and may not edit any more images until I have it. It makes a huge difference - takes images from flat to presence. It is much more than just a contrast adjustment.

  - slc
Title: B&W Printing: Creating the Digital Master Print
Post by: JeffKohn on May 20, 2009, 04:39:15 pm
My copy of the book arrived yesterday. I only had a chance to read the first chapter, and it read a bit like a promotional piece for PercepTool. Hopefully the whole book is not like that. Chapter 1 doesn't go into details of exactly what PercepTool does, but from the before/after samples it seems primarily for increasing global and local contrast.
Title: B&W Printing: Creating the Digital Master Print
Post by: Philip Weber on May 20, 2009, 05:52:41 pm
Quote from: slc
Yes, I just had a workshop with George DeWolfe and we used the PercepTool and it is a MUST HAVE. The Windows version is currently in beta testing and should be available soon - I'm waiting very eagerly and may not edit any more images until I have it. It makes a huge difference - takes images from flat to presence. It is much more than just a contrast adjustment.

  - slc


Thanks for the reply. I'm on a PC too and waiting.

In terms of work flow, where did he have you applying it? Since he's a LR user (as am I) is he doing the basic conversion to B&W, then exporting the image (RAW or TIFF?) into CS4 for the PercepTool edit? I assume doing a curves adjustment after that doesn't mess anything up that the plug-in achieved.

Any info on how one would use the thing is appreciated!

Phil
Title: B&W Printing: Creating the Digital Master Print
Post by: daws on May 20, 2009, 10:37:40 pm
Quote from: slc
The Windows version is currently in beta testing and should be available soon -

Anyone have any info on an ETA for release?


Title: B&W Printing: Creating the Digital Master Print
Post by: Kirk Gittings on May 21, 2009, 12:06:42 am
I got mine today from Amazon. Looks like classic. George was my mentor a bit for digital printing and this book looks like a great update of his methodology.
Title: B&W Printing: Creating the Digital Master Print
Post by: MarkL on May 21, 2009, 07:47:30 am
There is so much on the net about b&w conversion methods, inkjet printing and best papers for b&w etc. is there much in this book that has not been discussed before?

Also, there is little information on what his magical plugin actually does other than marketing speak.
Title: B&W Printing: Creating the Digital Master Print
Post by: mbridgers on May 21, 2009, 10:52:51 am
Quote from: daws
Anyone have any info on an ETA for release?
I picked up a copy at Barnes and Noble yesterday here in the North Atlanta area.  Haven't had a chance to really even open it, though, but flipping through, it seemed interesting enough to make my buy it.

I did enjoy and learn from DeWolfe's other book on digital printing, "Digital Photography Fine Print Workshop", which is why I was pre-disposed to pop for this one.
Title: B&W Printing: Creating the Digital Master Print
Post by: JeffKohn on May 21, 2009, 11:11:48 am
I've read the first three chapters so far now. Up to this point it has been pretty vague, although getting into subsequent chapters will hopefully have a little more meat as he starts discussing the workflow in more detail. He keeps mentioning PercepTool, but I'm still not clear on what exactly it does.

Quote
PercepTool takes the image made in the digital camera sensor (also called luminance image) and changes it into what our brain actually perceives.
Sounds like marketing mumbo-jumbo to me. From the before/after samples it seems like an automated contrast enhancement tool. I also find it interesting that the books says you can purchase PercepTool for "only $19.95" but his website says it will cost $89.95.

Title: B&W Printing: Creating the Digital Master Print
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on May 21, 2009, 11:24:32 am
Quote from: JeffKohn
Sounds like marketing mumbo-jumbo to me. From the before/after samples it seems like an automated contrast enhancement tool. I also find it interesting that the books says you can purchase PercepTool for "only $19.95" but his website says it will cost $89.95.

He does have a note on the website acknowledging the error in the book; I guess to get him off the hook so that entrepid readers won't say "but the book says $19.95."  Since there is a free 30 day trial, one can always see if it's worth the money or not.  I haven't received my copy from Amazon yet but my understanding is that the book focuses on Lightroom but the description of the tool indicates that it's a Photoshop plugin.  Little bit of a disconnect there.
Title: B&W Printing: Creating the Digital Master Print
Post by: slc on May 21, 2009, 01:36:20 pm
He suggests making global changes in LR to get the image as close as you can, then take it into Photoshop. Here are my notes from the workshop:

•   Get the image pretty good in ACR/Lightroom before going to Photoshop
•   Run the percept tool to change luminance to luminosity (works for color images as well)
        •   Mode -> 32 bit (avoids clipping)
        •   Copy BG if want result on a new layer, or run the script– check if it runs in 32-bit on Vista 64; puts result on a new layer, adds dialog box percept effect, gamma, and saturation (for color) - script probably won't work on Vista 64-bit
        •   Filter/George DeWolfe / percept tool
        •   Wait, is very, very slow
        •   Mode -> 16bit
               •   Exposure try 0.14 – 0.28
               •   Gamma for blacks, try 1.02 – 1.05
        •   New adjustment layer, Gradient Map
        •   Adjust opacity of Gradient Map until contrast looks right, try 23%

In LR he does convert to BW, but note the tool works on color images (we had the best-looking group photo out of the workshop I've ever seen; the staffer said he ran the PercepTool on it).

Hope this helps,

  - susan

Quote from: Philip Weber
Thanks for the reply. I'm on a PC too and waiting.

In terms of work flow, where did he have you applying it? Since he's a LR user (as am I) is he doing the basic conversion to B&W, then exporting the image (RAW or TIFF?) into CS4 for the PercepTool edit? I assume doing a curves adjustment after that doesn't mess anything up that the plug-in achieved.

Any info on how one would use the thing is appreciated!

Phil
Title: B&W Printing: Creating the Digital Master Print
Post by: slc on May 21, 2009, 01:40:38 pm
Sorry I didn't preview the message before posting, and the system pulled all my nice indentions out of the what to do list. Let's try again:

--Get the image pretty good in ACR/Lightroom before going to Photoshop
--Run the percept tool to change luminance to luminosity (works for color images as well)
-------Mode -> 32 bit (avoids clipping)
-------Copy BG if want result on a new layer, or run the script– check if it runs in 32-bit on Vista 64; puts result on a new layer, adds dialog box percept effect, gamma, and saturation (for color)
------Filter/George DeWolfe / percept tool
------------Wait, is very, very slow
------Mode -> 16bit
----------Exposure try 0.14 – 0.28
----------Gamma for blacks, try 1.02 – 1.05
--New adjustment layer, Gradient Map
--Adjust opacity of Gradient Map until contrast looks right, try 23%


 - susan

Quote from: slc
He suggests making global changes in LR to get the image as close as you can, then take it into Photoshop. Here are my notes from the workshop:

•   Get the image pretty good in ACR/Lightroom before going to Photoshop
•   Run the percept tool to change luminance to luminosity (works for color images as well)
        •   Mode -> 32 bit (avoids clipping)
        •   Copy BG if want result on a new layer, or run the script– check if it runs in 32-bit on Vista 64; puts result on a new layer, adds dialog box percept effect, gamma, and saturation (for color) - script probably won't work on Vista 64-bit
        •   Filter/George DeWolfe / percept tool
        •   Wait, is very, very slow
        •   Mode -> 16bit
               •   Exposure try 0.14 – 0.28
               •   Gamma for blacks, try 1.02 – 1.05
        •   New adjustment layer, Gradient Map
        •   Adjust opacity of Gradient Map until contrast looks right, try 23%

In LR he does convert to BW, but note the tool works on color images (we had the best-looking group photo out of the workshop I've ever seen; the staffer said he ran the PercepTool on it).

Hope this helps,

  - susan
Title: B&W Printing: Creating the Digital Master Print
Post by: slc on May 21, 2009, 01:45:28 pm
George DeWolfe said on May 8 during my workshop that the Windows PercepTool had gone to beta as of that day. So the ETA depends on if they find any problems, which as an ex-software developer I know means it will be ready when it is ready and not before. He did say that the problem on Vista was with one administrative module, not with the content, so I am hoping it won't be too long.

  - susan

Quote from: daws
Anyone have any info on an ETA for release?
Title: B&W Printing: Creating the Digital Master Print
Post by: slc on May 21, 2009, 01:53:41 pm
As someone else suggested, try it for a month and see if you like the result. I do. And it does a lot more than automatically enhance contrast, or at least more than I have ever been able to do manually with any contrast and edge effect work in Photoshop. To the point that I look at my prints made without it and now they all look flat to me, though I was pleased enough with them before I tried the tool.

  - susan

Quote from: JeffKohn
I've read the first three chapters so far now. Up to this point it has been pretty vague, although getting into subsequent chapters will hopefully have a little more meat as he starts discussing the workflow in more detail. He keeps mentioning PercepTool, but I'm still not clear on what exactly it does.

Sounds like marketing mumbo-jumbo to me. From the before/after samples it seems like an automated contrast enhancement tool. I also find it interesting that the books says you can purchase PercepTool for "only $19.95" but his website says it will cost $89.95.
Title: B&W Printing: Creating the Digital Master Print
Post by: snickgrr on May 21, 2009, 05:16:41 pm
I've been playing with for the past few days and I'm very unimpressed.
Seems by making a selection based on luminosity values and command J that to put it on it's own layer and through using both a blend mode and a clipped curve you can duplicate it quite closely.
$89 dollars seems way out line.
My .02.
Title: B&W Printing: Creating the Digital Master Print
Post by: sergio on May 21, 2009, 09:55:12 pm
I found it painfully slow. Definitely not for a "work"flow where you handle more than a couple images. I have not yet seen it does something I cannot do with my regular tools in less time. However I will use it more and compare results both ways for the rest of the demo mode lifespan.
Title: B&W Printing: Creating the Digital Master Print
Post by: pcmurray on May 28, 2009, 04:07:33 pm
Bought the book thinking that there would be something different. Found it very disappointing. Book a shameless promotion for his software. Even with that disappointment, downloaded demo version of PercepTool. Painfully slow on my G5 Mac quad and  got run error messages. Took it off my system.
Title: B&W Printing: Creating the Digital Master Print
Post by: JeffKohn on May 28, 2009, 07:24:26 pm
Finished the book over the holiday weekend. Get past the flowery prose and there's nothing earth-shattering there, the workflow is pretty standard. I suppose his use of the history brush for dodging and burning is novel, but no more effective than other techniques (and I would argue it's less effective than some). If you're looking for any ground-breaking revelations, you won't find them unless he sells you on PercepTool. What's frustrating is that the book promises so much, and has these dramatic before/after examples in the 'Featured Artist' sections but there's really no information provided on how they achieved those results.

I downloaded the PercepTool demo now that it's available for Windows. All it does is reduce global contrast while increasing local contrast. It works very very slowly, so much so that I think I could fire up Lightzone and make my own manual adjustments more quickly than letting the plug-in run. I suppose for some images it might work OK, but for most images I tried there were problem areas, which is pretty much what I've come to expect from 'magic button' post-processing tools. Definitely not worth the $89 asking price, especially considering that it took just under 10 minutes to run on a 40 megapixel stitched shot (on a Core2Quad machine with 8GB of RAM and fast hard disks).
Title: B&W Printing: Creating the Digital Master Print
Post by: lensfactory on May 28, 2009, 09:12:56 pm
Quote from: JeffKohn
I suppose his use of the history brush for dodging and burning is novel, but no more effective than other techniques (and I would argue it's less effective than some).

Can you elaborate? I am looking for a way to do effective burning and dodging...and other techniques you can link me to?
Title: B&W Printing: Creating the Digital Master Print
Post by: JeffKohn on May 28, 2009, 10:36:32 pm
Quote from: lensfactory
Can you elaborate? I am looking for a way to do effective burning and dodging...and other techniques you can link me to?
Well the dodge/burn tools in CS4 have been revamped and actually work pretty well, although I would recommend using them on a duplicate layer so you still have your original un-touched image. Another common approach is to use solid-color layers with the various blend modes. For instance create a new layer filled with solid white, and set the blend mode to Multiply, Color Burn, or Linear Burn. Now if you paint into that layer with a low-opacity black brush, you can 'burn' portions of the image. To create a 'dodge' layer, create a new layer filled with black and set the blend mode to screen, color dodge, or linear dodge, and then paint into it with a low-opacity white brush. The different blend modes will have slightly different effects, color dodge/color burn are often good to start with, but if you're not getting the result you want try one of the other modes. It kind of depends on the tonal range you want hit.

Instead of using separate dodge/burn layers you can also fill a layer with middle-gray and use a blend-mode of overlay or soft light. Then you can paint with either black or white brush at low opacity to dodge/burn. This approach works pretty well for primarily midtones, but not so well for darkening extreme highlights or lightening deep shadows.
Title: B&W Printing: Creating the Digital Master Print
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on May 29, 2009, 03:37:30 am
Quote from: JeffKohn
Finished the book over the holiday weekend. Get past the flowery prose and there's nothing earth-shattering there, the workflow is pretty standard. I suppose his use of the history brush for dodging and burning is novel, but no more effective than other techniques (and I would argue it's less effective than some). If you're looking for any ground-breaking revelations, you won't find them unless he sells you on PercepTool. What's frustrating is that the book promises so much, and has these dramatic before/after examples in the 'Featured Artist' sections but there's really no information provided on how they achieved those results.
That's pretty much my view as well. One thing I did find amusing (and, in its way, reassuring) was that the featured artists could take photos that looked so awful before manipulation and still end up with something looking pretty good.

The main disappointment for me was that although he describes what he did to improve images, the book is very short on why. A cynic might suggest that such an approach would improve sales of the tool he's plugging.

Still, it wasn't expensive.

Jeremy
Title: B&W Printing: Creating the Digital Master Print
Post by: JohnBrew on May 29, 2009, 08:25:06 am
Quote from: lensfactory
Can you elaborate? I am looking for a way to do effective burning and dodging...and other techniques you can link me to?

George is a huge fan of the history brush. He was on the Lightroom advisory group and tried to get them to adopt his way of doing things (history brush). His book "Digital Photography Fine Print Workshop" pretty much covers it. Frankly I'm still incensed (over three years later!) that I paid $1100 for this workshop and he gave us the book on a PDF! (Admittedly the book wasn't out yet, but he could have sent it to us, it was only two weeks until release - some in the class went to Kinkos to have the PDF printed - what a waste.)
Title: B&W Printing: Creating the Digital Master Print
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on May 29, 2009, 09:04:16 am
I've just skimmed the book as well and found it to be wanting.  As others have noted, it is a shameless promotion for his software plugin that I may or may not give a try to see if it's worth the investment.  The images are nice but there is little explanation of why certain choices were made.  Quite frankly one can get more value from Martin Evening's free video tutorials on the Lightroom News website, particularly his use of the desaturation sliders to create the initial B&W image (which leads to less noise).
Title: B&W Printing: Creating the Digital Master Print
Post by: daws on May 29, 2009, 06:28:25 pm
Quote from: JeffKohn
...it took just under 10 minutes to run on a 40 megapixel stitched shot (on a Core2Quad machine with 8GB of RAM and fast hard disks).

I've tried the PercepTool demo on a couple dozen 120MB .PSD and .TIFF files in CS4. Processing time is consistently 5 min. 40 sec. per file, +/- 5 sec.

That's on a four-year-old Windows XP machine, 3.06 dual processors, 4GB RAM.


Quote from: JeffKohn
All it does is reduce global contrast while increasing local contrast.

To my eye it does much, much more than that.

Just sayin'.
Title: B&W Printing: Creating the Digital Master Print
Post by: JeffKohn on May 29, 2009, 06:46:44 pm
Quote from: daws
I've tried the PercepTool demo on a couple dozen 120MB .PSD and .TIFF files in CS4. Processing time is consistently 5 min. 40 sec. per file, +/- 5 sec.

That's on a four-year-old Windows XP machine, 3.06 dual processors, 4GB RAM.
And your point is? Do you really find that acceptable? Besides I said 40 megapixels not 40 megabytes. For 12 megapixel images it seems to take about 3 minutes on my machine.

Quote
To my eye it does much, much more than that.

Just sayin'.
If you can explain it I'm all ears. I'd be very interested to hear a real explanation of what this plug-in supposedly does, as opposed to marketing speak about "changing the luminance image into the luminosity percept of the visual cortex."
Title: B&W Printing: Creating the Digital Master Print
Post by: keith_cooper on May 30, 2009, 05:14:16 am
Quote from: JohnBrew
George is a huge fan of the history brush. He was on the Lightroom advisory group and tried to get them to adopt his way of doing things (history brush). His book "Digital Photography Fine Print Workshop" pretty much covers it. Frankly I'm still incensed (over three years later!) that I paid $1100 for this workshop and he gave us the book on a PDF! (Admittedly the book wasn't out yet, but he could have sent it to us, it was only two weeks until release - some in the class went to Kinkos to have the PDF printed - what a waste.)

I like to look at different approaches to my own PS based workflow* every so often, and I recently got the workshop book.

It's an interesting read. However, despite his case for the History brush approach, I still personally find using assorted masks a much more intuitive approach in achieving the 'look I'm after.  That said, I'll mention aspects of his approach next time I get asked to do a talk on aspects of B/W printing.

I find his assertion that "... it is counterintuitive to an artist to subtract something" (p161) as a somewhat dubious approach towards justifying what is for all of us, a personal choice as to what best fits our vision.

I was also somewhat disappointed to find colour management relegated to a few pages in an appendix, almost as an afterthought to the process of getting good prints.

Keith Cooper

* A short -basic- (for this list!) tutorial showing my own typical B/W workflow is at http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/tutoria...hite_print.html (http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/tutorial_pages/black_and_white_print.html)
Title: B&W Printing: Creating the Digital Master Print
Post by: nemophoto on June 11, 2009, 04:56:38 pm
Personally, I enjoyed the book. Yes, it promotes his plug-in and Lightroom (but, so what --it's his book). In a way, it inspired me, and not much inspires me these days. There were some interesting tips and alternate ways of doing things. And, there was some great photography within -- both George's and other photographers. I may be teaching a photo seminar coarse at a boarding school this fall, and if I do, I'll make this one of my text books.

Nemo
Title: B&W Printing: Creating the Digital Master Print
Post by: Chris_T on June 15, 2009, 09:19:45 am
The comments about the PercepTool is yet another good example of the importance of providing some context. It would be much more helpful is the posters can support and substantiate, however subjective, their pros and cons with:

- their level of expertise and experience prior to using the tool

- the kind of images the tool is applied to (good captures vs problematic captures, tag sharp landscapes vs blurry abstracts, etc.)

- samples of before and after the tool is applied

- methods used but failed to achieve the same without the tool

Without these, comments can only lead to confusion and frustration.
Title: B&W Printing: Creating the Digital Master Print
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on June 15, 2009, 09:46:01 am
Quote from: Chris_T
The comments about the PercepTool is yet another good example of the importance of providing some context. It would be much more helpful is the posters can support and substantiate, however subjective, their pros and cons with:

- their level of expertise and experience prior to using the tool

- the kind of images the tool is applied to (good captures vs problematic captures, tag sharp landscapes vs blurry abstracts, etc.)

- samples of before and after the tool is applied

- methods used but failed to achieve the same without the tool

Without these, comments can only lead to confusion and frustration.
Chris,

You do have a way of picking out the essential issues of a discussion like this (very much like the way you critique websites.) I have been following this thread since it began, hoping to get a good idea of whether either the book or the PercepTool would be of any use to me. You have spotlighted exactly the things I have been missing here. Thank you!


-Eric

Title: B&W Printing: Creating the Digital Master Print
Post by: keith_cooper on June 15, 2009, 10:03:48 am
Still waiting for the book to appear over here (UK).

My own comments were regarding his previous book - I'll get the demo and give it a blast once the book turns up...  I might not buy into some of the 'philosophy' that seems to go along with it, but a useful tool is a useful tool whatever ;-)

Title: B&W Printing: Creating the Digital Master Print
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on June 15, 2009, 12:51:55 pm
Quote from: keith_cooper
Still waiting for the book to appear over here (UK).

My own comments were regarding his previous book - I'll get the demo and give it a blast once the book turns up...  I might not buy into some of the 'philosophy' that seems to go along with it, but a useful tool is a useful tool whatever ;-)
Keith,

It's here - I bought it through Amazon from a firm called The Book Depository about three weeks ago. Amazon themselves say it's available only for pre-order, but follow the "used and new" link and it's listed as in stock with the Depository. I had good service and quick delivery as well.

Whether it was worth the money is another matter entirely, of course, but it didn't cost too much.

Jeremy
Title: B&W Printing: Creating the Digital Master Print
Post by: keith_cooper on June 15, 2009, 04:36:54 pm
Quote from: kikashi
Keith,

It's here - I bought it through Amazon from a firm called The Book Depository about three weeks ago. Amazon themselves say it's available only for pre-order, but follow the "used and new" link and it's listed as in stock with the Depository. I had good service and quick delivery as well.

Whether it was worth the money is another matter entirely, of course, but it didn't cost too much.

Jeremy
Thanks - unfortunately I didn't see that, and got it as part of an Amazon gift certificate I was using. So I'm waiting for Amazon themselves.

Still, about time I finished some of the other books I picked up recently ;-)
Title: B&W Printing: Creating the Digital Master Print
Post by: Chris_T on June 16, 2009, 08:26:33 am
Thanks Eric, it takes one geezer to appreciate another  

The problem with Net postings, especially in forums like this, is digging out the few gems in mountains of noise. IMHO, *the* key to good postings is in their *context*.

Quote from: EricM
Chris,

You do have a way of picking out the essential issues of a discussion like this (very much like the way you critique websites.) I have been following this thread since it began, hoping to get a good idea of whether either the book or the PercepTool would be of any use to me. You have spotlighted exactly the things I have been missing here. Thank you!


-Eric
Title: B&W Printing: Creating the Digital Master Print
Post by: JeffKohn on June 16, 2009, 10:45:13 am
Quote from: Chris_T
The comments about the PercepTool is yet another good example of the importance of providing some context. It would be much more helpful is the posters can support and substantiate, however subjective, their pros and cons with:

- their level of expertise and experience prior to using the tool

- the kind of images the tool is applied to (good captures vs problematic captures, tag sharp landscapes vs blurry abstracts, etc.)

- samples of before and after the tool is applied

- methods used but failed to achieve the same without the tool

Without these, comments can only lead to confusion and frustration.
It was not my intention to write a full-length professional review, I have neither the time nor desire to do so. I did post slightly more in-depth comments here (http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1000&message=32008939). You may also be interested in a technical analysis of what PercepTool actually does that was posted by someone else here (http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1000&message=31996984).
Title: B&W Printing: Creating the Digital Master Print
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on June 16, 2009, 11:28:52 am
Quote from: JeffKohn
It was not my intention to write a full-length professional review, I have neither the time nor desire to do so. I did post slightly more in-depth comments here (http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1000&message=32008939). You may also be interested in a technical analysis of what PercepTool actually does that was posted by someone else here (http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1000&message=31996984).
Thanks for those links. They are quite helpful.
Title: B&W Printing: Creating the Digital Master Print
Post by: Kirk Gittings on June 16, 2009, 11:34:10 am
I haven't tried it yet but I understand there is a new version ready for download in the last couple of days which is much faster.