Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: narikin on May 08, 2009, 05:09:16 am
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I see Phase have a special offer just out with a P30+ Kit (i.e. with camera body + 80mm + C1pro) for $16995 list.
pretty damn good. especially as street price would be still lower. seems like what everyone wanted - more affordable MF is coming to pass.
what this also does is throw into light the insanely high price of the P65+. As a kit that is +/- $22,000 more just for that sensor upgrade, over the P30+ sensor. Seems indefensible to me, and high time for a price cut on that.
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I see Phase have a special offer just out with a P30+ Kit (i.e. with camera body + 80mm + C1pro) for $16995 list.
pretty damn good. especially as street price would be still lower. seems like what everyone wanted - more affordable MF is coming to pass.
what this also does is throw into light the insanely high price of the P65+. As a kit that is +/- $22,000 more just for that sensor upgrade, over the P30+ sensor. Seems indefensible to me, and high time for a price cut on that.
Still to expensive for this economy.
Forget the P65, I doubt many people are even thinking of it. Rental... Maybe.
have you seen the major increase of MFDB for sale lately and the prices???
I think phase will need to come up with another marketing plan.
When they get closer to the 10-15k range, maybe just maybe.
Snook
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Still to expensive for this economy.
Forget the P65, I doubt many people are even thinking of it. Rental... Maybe.
have you seen the major increase of MFDB for sale lately and the prices???
I think phase will need to come up with another marketing plan.
When they get closer to the 10-15k range, maybe just maybe.
Snook
I can only speak for this dealership, but we're doing well with the P65+. When you have a product shipping which is not matched by any of the competition it's likely to sell well.
And we are offering Phase One Refurbished P30+ with a new body/lens and a 1-year warranty and full dealer-support for $14,990.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
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Hello Doug, How are you?
Would you mind posting those numbers. The sales numbers of the P65 that is?
I and many others are really interested.
And would you mind telling us, What type of photographers are buying all those P65's....?
I am fine with my P30 for a while. No more megapixels needed. Just missing some good sharp lens and the Leaf shuttter lens Mamiya has been promising for years now.
And that is missing from the Canon Nikon bench also.
Thanks,
Snook
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The Mamiya DL28 seems to be a much better deal, especially at $2,000.00 less and you get an additional lens. Bigger brighter screen, and I can use the files in many 3rd party software for processing.
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I don't understand where all of these "refurbs" come from. Were they all actually in need of refurbishment? Are they simply trade-ins?
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Would you mind posting those numbers. The sales numbers of the P65 that is?
I and many others are really interested.
now, now, that is not a fair or reasonable request. confidential information, I'm sure.
however I do know 2 photographers who have bought them in the last 3 months, both first time buyers (not upgraders). One switching from 4x5, one from 8x10. They are big name art-photographers, who need/like like large files, and both of whom thought they'd never 'switch'!
I still think the price of the P65+ is out of order - it should be $10,000 less, when you look at this offer.
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I think a phone call to any dealer with a serious intent to buy will get you a price that may not be what is always listed on any public place. Not sure why it is not so hard to actually make that call and find out. Some business modules just work that way and others do not. I see no issue with that business module, many companies work that way. It always sounds like cloak and dagger stuff just pick up the damn phone and find out. Or send a e-mail for a quote. I would never quote my prices to clients in public. Honestly don't see any difference.
Let's face it I ask anyone on this forum what there day rate or creative rate is there would be no reply in public.
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....I still think the price of the P65+ is out of order - it should be $10,000 less, when you look at this offer.
The P65+ is a different product not aimed at "competing" with the P30+ or the other Phase backs. There is a big difference in what we would like a product to be priced at (a deal or a "steal of a deal") and what the market is able to sustain (others perception of value is maybe higher than our own perceived value). The P65+ is still quite new, and as long as demand is there, I doubt prices will drop much for a bit....
The new promotion is a good start...and perhaps a good way to get more photographers in the door, and also consider other (more $$) Phase backs along the way...
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I can only speak for this dealership, but we're doing well with the P65+.
I would love to be a fly on the wall in Phase One's boardroom to try to understand who this camera is aimed at.
I would be fascinated to learn what professional photographers are buying a $40,000 camera back?
I'm lucky because I'm busy, but the list of what we have to produce in a day makes using medium format or anything that slows you down difficult. This week, every day was a 12 hour shoot day, with AD's sending jpegs back to the home office to get every shot "approved".
It's not that the economy is bad, it's just that everyone is in a cya mode and when the client says jump everybody up and down the chain just answers how high and I don't know a single person in this industry, photographer, crew or ad agency that isn't producing twice the work for the same pay they were doing a year ago.
Everybody I know is working from a bottom line number and right now numbers rule so even if a $40,000 camera back would be a better tool, where do you fit that into the estimate? When I say everybody, I mean every country I've worked, every crew member I know has the same story and if I made a list of photographers that were selling or not using their medium format backs it would be twenty five lines, if I made a list of the client requests crew and photographers are agreeing to, it would make your head spin.
I can see rental houses buying it (maybe) for the uninitiated that just say give me the biggest camera you got, but for a busy photographer that owns their own equipment I can't see where those prices make sense.
This year will turn out ok for our studio but we've had to adapt, do more, work faster, negotiate every line item down.
Digital has changed everything. This year we have renegotiated use and talent fees over a dozen times from past projects dating back to 2004. Clients that are currently shooting are throwing in extra sessions to build a library of images. On set digital has changed the way clients are viewing what we shoot. Whether it's a 12mpx file or 39 mpx. they don't notice, they don't care as long as it looks good on a 30" lcd monitor and it's in focus and has the look they want.
Obviously things will get back to normal, but the climb is going to start out slow, because so many people have cut their prices and pushed the numbers downward, that moving back up is going to take a while. It's not the end of the world, there is work out there and good people are working, but the ones I know that are working are aggressive and know how to work fast, know how to negotiate and deliver more than the client thought was possible, which is a tall order now that most clients are asking the impossible.
One client that we shoot a lot of in-store advertising for is even asking for smaller files to be optimized for projection, and lcd play because they find it more cost effective to show a digital slide than a printed poster, so 60mpx isn't even close to being on their radar screen.
One of the reasons I've always bought my own equipment during the fat times is because I know when things get tight you can still work without worrying about rental costs, though cameras are the last thing I would think about buying in todays market. Faster easier to use lighting makes sense, quick fast computers are fine, but to just put out the old numbers with the mindset of bill the client isn't a workable solution in todays market.
Right now quality and quanity are expected in equal proportion.
Client's aren't unknowing, in fact I was told yesterday of a large advertiser that is offering a bonus to any employee that can come up with a plan to lower photography costs and since all the numbers are pared to the bone anyway, where does new cameras fall within this type of equation?
I wish Phase well, but at $40,000, I would think that would be a damn tough sell.
Actually the most effective purchase today is for a photographer to advertise and advertise big, because you can't play to a local, regional, national market. You have to be pushing worldwide and when I think of dropping 40 grand for anything, it's has to be an advertising campaign, not a piece of equipment.
B
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The Mamiya DL28 seems to be a much better deal, especially at $2,000.00 less and you get an additional lens. Bigger brighter screen, and I can use the files in many 3rd party software for processing.
Phase One raw files also open up in numerous 3rd party software, and without any need for running them through a de-compression utility first, as some must. Plus you also get to use Capture One, which for many is a preferred software solution to those 3rd party programs.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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I think a phone call to any dealer with a serious intent to buy will get you a price that may not be what is always listed on any public place. Not sure why it is not so hard to actually make that call and find out.
confused - nobody here is asking what the actual best street price of a P65+ is...
what we were discussing was its relative price to the P65+ kit. you can do that list:list or street:street, either way its over $20,000, which is ... an extremely high premium for this product.
I know very well that nobody pays list, for anything anymore, as I'd imagine does everyone else who comes here.
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I see Phase have a special offer just out with a P30+ Kit (i.e. with camera body + 80mm + C1pro) for $16995 list.
... more affordable MF is coming to pass.
what this also does is throw into light the insanely high price of the P65+. As a kit that is +/- $22,000 more just for that sensor upgrade, over the P30+ sensor.
Firstly with the release of the P40+ with the new generation of 44x33mm sensor, this P30+ kit pricing probably reflects the discount that must be offered on an older or superseded model. For the true price trend, look at the pricing of new models, like P40+ now (US$20,000 body only?) vs P30+ when it was released.
Secondly, sensor cost dominates MF digital back cost, and sensor size dominates sensor cost, growing far faster than in proportion to area, due to lower yields with larger sizes. And with higher costs goes lower volume and the need for higher markups, pushing prices up even more at the top of the line. So it is not at all surprising to me that the new "biggest and therefore best" P65+ costs so much.
P. S. $40,000 sounds like a lot for a camera, but it is not out of line for the gear costs of many self-employed professionals: a building contractor probably has more invested in truck, tools and such. So the main question is whether spending an extra $20,000 on one back rather than another brings in an enough extra revenue over the lifetime of the back.
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Firstly with the release of the P40+ with the new generation of 44x33mm sensor, this P30+ kit pricing probably reflects the discount that must be offered on an older or superseded model. For the true price trend, look at the pricing of new models, like P40+ now (US$20,000 body only?) vs P30+ when it was released.
Secondly, sensor cost dominates MF digital back cost, and sensor size dominates sensor cost, growing far faster than in proportion to area, due to lower yields with larger sizes. And with higher costs goes lower volume and the need for higher markups, pushing prices up even more at the top of the line. So it is not at all surprising to me that the new "biggest and therefore best" P65+ costs so much.
P. S. $40,000 sounds like a lot for a camera, but it is not out of line for the gear costs of many self-employed professionals: a building contractor probably has more invested in truck, tools and such. So the main question is whether spending an extra $20,000 on one back rather than another brings in an enough extra revenue over the lifetime of the back.
Your not just talking about an extra 20 grand, our talking about an extra 20 grand plus lenses, plus new lesnes to come, plus backups of some kind, plus lighting, grip, computers, drives, software, time (lots and lots of time) and mostly your talking about what you can do with that extra 20 grand . . . hire better crew and pay them a decent wage, put money into promotions, even use that 20 to buy a truck. Trucks are cheap today.
As far as what it costs Phase, who knows, but since all the medium format makers dropped their prices a minimum of $10,000 what seems like across the board, either they had a lot of inventory or we're charging too much in the first place.
Senosr costs? Who knows, at least nobody outside of the secret world of medium format making and selling, but I find it hard to swallow that an extra few mm's costs $20,000 more considering it's the same box, everything goes in.
There is want and there is need and I'd love to meet the person that actually needs a 60mpx back.
I'm sure they are there, but I don't know who they are.
B
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You're right: long ago did I explain that sensor prices are not longer the major cost point of a digital back. When it used to be so at the very beginning of digital, this is not longer the case now, and by far. Count a little 20-25%, rest being R&D and SW costs and some manufacturing costs. This does not mean that the margins are very high, for "normal" priced digital backs.
Best regards,
Thierry
Senosr costs? Who knows, at least nobody outside of the secret world of medium format making and selling, but I find it hard to swallow that an extra few mm's costs $20,000 more considering it's the same box, everything goes in.
B
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confused - nobody here is asking what the actual best street price of a P65+ is...
what we were discussing was its relative price to the P65+ kit. you can do that list:list or street:street, either way its over $20,000, which is ... an extremely high premium for this product.
I know very well that nobody pays list, for anything anymore, as I'd imagine does everyone else who comes here.
Than it begs the question why do people even pay attention to the list price, you know it will not be 20k over what you think is over priced. I care about what amount I have to write the check for, sure I want blindfolds on and my wife not to have a 45 to my head but seriously it what comes out of the bank account that counts. LOL
Seriously not picking on you but we hear this all the time. It costs too much for what it is, well maybe it is but we don't know the real cost to write that check either.
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now, now, that is not a fair or reasonable request. confidential information, I'm sure.
however I do know 2 photographers who have bought them in the last 3 months, both first time buyers (not upgraders). One switching from 4x5, one from 8x10. They are big name art-photographers, who need/like like large files, and both of whom thought they'd never 'switch'!
I still think the price of the P65+ is out of order - it should be $10,000 less, when you look at this offer.
If I was a BIG time art shooter shooting 8X10. I would never shoot Digital. Kind of ruins the 8X10 deal.
When your shooting like 2-3 shots per image. Definitely better to shoot film...
Snook
PS. I was not trying to put anybody on the spot, But seriuosly who the hell is buying the P65's? Yeh I am sure a handfull of people. But who are they and what for. And more importantly with what freakin len's????
I am pretty sure people would rather rent these days if they could then dump 45,000 on something that may worth less than half shortly after purchase. And with no design change at all.
Seems they are trying to squeeze that lemon LCD screen and Casing.
Well so far we have gotten one guys saying he knows of a guy who bought one. Was that becasue he was obliged to after ordering it before it came out and then could not back out?
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If I was a BIG time art shooter shooting 8X10. I would never shoot Digital. Kind of ruins the 8X10 deal.
When your shooting like 2-3 shots per image. Definitely better to shoot film...
Snook
PS. I was not trying to put anybody on the spot, But seriuosly who the hell is buying the P65's? Yeh I am sure a handfull of people. But who are they and what for. And more importantly with what freakin len's????
I am pretty sure people would rather rent these days if they could then dump 45,000 on something that may worth less than half shortly after purchase. And with no design change at all.
Seems they are trying to squeeze that lemon LCD screen and Casing.
Well so far we have gotten one guys saying he knows of a guy who bought one. Was that becasue he was obliged to after ordering it before it came out and then could not back out?
Snook:
We have sold many. That's as much as you'll get from me, but I will state unequivically that the amount is accurate.
And just last month, we delivered a P65+ to an 8x10 shooter. He is very pleased with the results.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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Clearly $40K is a lot, but isn't that what these high end backs always cost? I think one of my assistants paid $45K a year or two ago for a 40mp H2 with two lenses. $45K!
Now there's 60mp on a larger chip for $40K. Sounds about right to me. Of course I am in not going to buy one at that price, and I don't know what the hell I would do with all that data anyway, as there is not much data that actually sticks to a printed page, now is there? I mean, how much actual data is there on a 16x20 PRINT? Anyone know? 3, 5, 10mp? 20?
Anyway I think it's interesting that so many people who say they would have no use for this amount of data are so upset about the price. (I mean, the price of something which you have no intention of buying and would have no real use for.) Are you this upset about the price of the a Lamborghini? Of a beach front house in West Palm Beach? My dealer says they are selling quite a few of these 60mp monsters too, so who cares?
Anyway, speaking of who can afford it, I know a fairly successful shooter here in NY who gets $14K/day to shoot mediocre catalog work for companies such as Aeropostale. So, a $40K back is just 3 days work for him. I'm just saying, this pricing does not twist everybody into knots. Just some of us ;-)
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Than it begs the question why do people even pay attention to the list price, you know it will not be 20k over what you think is over priced.
Seriously not picking on you but we hear this all the time. It costs too much for what it is, well maybe it is but we don't know the real cost to write that check either.
I really don't get what you are not understanding about this. We can see the price of the newly announced P30+ kit and I know the street price (after weeks of haggling with multiple dealers) of a P65+, and it IS $20,000+ extra. end of story. It's really not complicated: same camera body, same lens, same back, different sensor chip installed, $20,000+ more to pay. ok?
I was not trying to put anybody on the spot, But seriuosly who the hell is buying the P65's? Yeh I am sure a handful of people. But who are they and what for. And more importantly with what freakin len's????
Well so far we have gotten one guys saying he knows of a guy who bought one. Was that becasue he was obliged to after ordering it before it came out and then could not back out?
I used to make the mistake of thinking that MY needs were what everyone else's needs were. They aren't. There are plenty of photographers out there whose requirements are different to mine or yours.
The TWO people I know who have bought a P65+ need serious megapixels, and good luck to them. The price of this back is less than just one of their images sold in an art gallery, (and they sell plenty) so its not a cost issue, as we could have surmised from anyone who shoots multiple 8x10's and then scans, pays pros digital technicians to composite and work on them: its a high cost production, and a digital back quickly pays for itself.
There are plenty of people out there who need 60Mp resolution, and more. When it hits 100Mp expect the same round of arguments, and people insisting that their 30Mp/40Mp is plenty enough (maybe it is for them) and who in their right mind could want 100Mp. Different horses, different courses. be happy they exist, it will drive down the cost of your needs, and when you upgrade to a P65+ refurb in 3 years, will find it affordable!
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I kept telling myself not to say anything that I don't have a dog in this fight however the "demand" (and that's the way I took the it as a whole) to provide numbers of sold pushed me over the edge.
First off what business is it of anyone as to who is buying what. I've seen the P65 a couple times and personally know of "several" individuals who have bought the P65. Good for them. More power to them. If it fits their business model and can afford it why the hell not! Am I going to get one to fit on my Cambo? Yes. When? It's nobody's business except my dealer and me.
I think we need to get off this band wagon and pursue other and much better topics that who has the biggest (fill in the blank) in the school yard. What are we 8th graders?
Yes the equipment we use has a lot to do with it just as our own talent; after all without talent you really have nothing.
While I have nothing to truly base this on I believe that over 99% of Phase customers are very satisfied with the product they own. I also believe that there are professional sh-- stirrers out there that want nothing else than to sit at their computers and malign a company or individual. To them I say get over it and get a life.
Snook - The rant is not addressed to you personally other than your "request" for units sold pushed me over the edge. This is every much like me asking another landscape photographer to cough up their revenue statements - that's between them and the tax man.
Okay I feel better now and can go back to processing some work.
My best to all
Don
Oh yea I know I'm going to get flack on this....
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OFF TOPIC
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Just took a look at your blog. You are talking about a new groundglass for the WRS. Is this a Cambo groundglass or a 3rd party? what kind of groundglass is it? Thanks!
/OFF TOPIC
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Now there's 60mp on a larger chip for $40K. Sounds about right to me. Of course I am in not going to buy one at that price, and I don't know what the hell I would do with all that data anyway, as there is not much data that actually sticks to a printed page, now is there? I mean, how much actual data is there on a 16x20 PRINT? Anyone know? 3, 5, 10mp? 20?
There are a surprising number of applications where 60 megapixels is not enough, but will have to do because it's the best single shot solution there is.
One very specific example: I've just been accepted to a photos-only gallery on Lincoln Rd. in South Beach which displays very few prints less than 30x40 or less than $4000 and each artist has 1-5 prints. Can you make a 30x40 from a 22mp dSLR? Absolutely yes. It will even look very sharp and detailed to most people if not compared directly to a higher res image. However, when someone walks into that gallery and the huge prints all hang side-by-side the difference between something like a 1Ds II/III and a P40+/P65+ becomes very important for images where resolution is a visual component like landscapes or environmental fashion shots. It's not as important as the quality of your imagery, but it's more than a tie-breaker, and for better or for worse the sales-people often reference the incredible detail of the shots which contain it (a lot easier for them to 'sell' than how the image makes you feel).
We could argue all day about what DPI is required but for simplicity I'll pick 300dpi.
- A 16x20 at 300dpi is 28 megapixels of uncropped data
- A 20x30 at 300dpi is 54 megapixels of uncropped data
- A 30x40 at 300dpi is 108 megapixels of uncropped data
Add a crop, a rotation, correct the perspective, or correct lens distortion, or start pushing the file hard in post (dramatic effects) and the requirements can quickly jump. For instance a 15% crop on each side is a 28% drop in resolution.
Again, I'll be the first to point out that even 100 dpi can look pretty good, and that not every image benefits from razor sharp detail. But then the high end which Medium Format plays in is not usually content with "pretty good". Whether the extra cost is worth it to you is a very personal decision, so please don't project your feeling on this onto everyone else.
And of course the 65+ also has the larger sensor, a bit higher dynamic range than the 20/21/25/30/45, a digital horizon-meter, in-back ratings, composition grids, b+w viewing in the field, a built in flip down fw-cover, and Sensor+ for situations where you need higher ISO or don't want to deal with the large files but don't want to carry/learn/deal-with a second platform. So the resolution is not the only benefit.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
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OFF TOPIC
Just took a look at your blog. You are talking about a new groundglass for the WRS. Is this a Cambo groundglass or a 3rd party? what kind of groundglass is it? Thanks!
/OFF TOPIC
Tho Mas
I'm speaking of the WDS-619. Still haven't gotten yet as I'm also waiting for the additional lens.
Thanks for asking
Don
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Hey Doug, thanks. Don't mean to argue with anyone here, and clearly big prints benefit of from more data...but what I am talking about is what ends up actually VISIBLE ON THE PRINTED PAGE, not the size of the input file...
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I'm speaking of the WDS-619. Still haven't gotten yet
ah, okay - thank you! Just asking because at Photokina the Cambo guys told me they will look for a new groundglass as the WDS619 is quite dark.
I've ordered 2 lumigrid groundglasses from sheetfilm.be ... but still waiting for them. I'll keep you in the loop...
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I kept telling myself not to say anything that I don't have a dog in this fight however the "demand" (and that's the way I took the it as a whole) to provide numbers of sold pushed me over the edge.
First off what business is it of anyone as to who is buying what. I've seen the P65 a couple times and personally know of "several" individuals who have bought the P65. Good for them. More power to them. If it fits their business model and can afford it why the hell not! Am I going to get one to fit on my Cambo? Yes. When? It's nobody's business except my dealer and me.
I think we need to get off this band wagon and pursue other and much better topics that who has the biggest (fill in the blank) in the school yard. What are we 8th graders?
Yes the equipment we use has a lot to do with it just as our own talent; after all without talent you really have nothing.
While I have nothing to truly base this on I believe that over 99% of Phase customers are very satisfied with the product they own. I also believe that there are professional sh-- stirrers out there that want nothing else than to sit at their computers and malign a company or individual. To them I say get over it and get a life.
Snook - The rant is not addressed to you personally other than your "request" for units sold pushed me over the edge. This is every much like me asking another landscape photographer to cough up their revenue statements - that's between them and the tax man.
Okay I feel better now and can go back to processing some work.
My best to all
Don
Oh yea I know I'm going to get flack on this....
Don I am sorry you feel that way and maybe you are Old School..:+}
I absolutely think you are wrong and it is a great idea to know how many numbers are sold, how could that possibly be so strange and secondly how could it so easily "throw" you over the edge. Be careful by the way b/c some of the edges in your photography are pretty high and there might not be anyway back..:+]
I think anybody could find out How many Canons,Mercedes,Laptops were sold each year and it is very important information.
When you come down off that ledge could you please explain further why it through you for spin?? seriuosly.
I truly believe that a lot of the Megapixel crap is WAY over hyped up and the P65 shows that. Who the Hell needs not wants, mind you, that many megapixels.
I truly feel it is a legitmate question. After all I am a PhaseOne and C-1 user.
I have read all over and even notice in my images both with Canon and Phase that the Lens are where we come to a dead end at the moment. I am not shooting LARGE format so it maybe different if someone wants to correct me.
Please don't jump and by all means this is a discussion forum that is supposed to be bias.
I still leave the question out there since this is One of and the only forum about MFD photography that I know about and some what trust.
It was not meant to make you nor Doug angry. I have a lot of repsect for Doug, but that does not change my opinion or my curiosity...
Thanks for understanding
Snook
PS. Doug I do undertsand your printing theory but at what cost. Have you done any uprezing of a P45+ file and printed it at the Native P65 image size images? Can you actually see a difference in Print?
I am not going to get into the arguement of yes maybe people "want" more megapixels vs the actually benefits and print benefits.
My Line of work is Fashion, Beauty, Catalogue and Advertising and to tell you the truth I have never had any complaints about the 1DsMII.
Again can some one jump in here and let us know if the 65 megapixel are going to just show more FLAWS with the current lens line up for most camera outfits?
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There are some people "NEED" more megapixels, and there are some people "WANT" more megapixels, so we can't put all people in same league.
to me, i always "WANT" more megapixels, i know 8 and 10 and 20mp are more than enough for needs, but for wants it is never enough.
Here is a dealer selling Hasselblad in lowest prices these days, you can get H3DII-39mp kit with about $17k, i got it about $21k about 4 months ago, and the 31mp is cheapest, i feel so sad that the 50mp is coming around $21k, so i feel sad and i want to sell my 39mp about $20k to fund for 50mp, i now that 60mp is coming soon, but the 50mp owners can upgrade with difference prices only, but i can't because i have 39mp not 50mp.
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it could be that P65+ is selling good probably not to its full potential until the price gets reconfigured
but I doubt very much if professionals are among majority of P65+ customers at this point
it looks to me until we see 60mp from Hassy in September
nothing is going to change P65+ price even though this was a very good
time and opportunity for Phase One to RAM through anybodies particularly
Hasselblad sales!!!
the fact is they will learn their lesson sooner or later
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Okay taking another break from work..
A couple thoughts have been running through my feeble brain:
• How is it okay on one hand to trash talk a company's price for their product and at the same time be willing to fight tooth and nail to get the highest price possible for our own product? What's the difference?
• And, what about the discussions as to how much is too many megapixels? Digital photography isn't that old. Okay I am "old school" as I remember beta, 8 track as well as digital cameras that stored images on floppy disks.
The messages I've been reading here are all strongly worded personal opinions that may or not have a bearing on the marketplace. Just because you personally don't need a boost in megapixels doesn't mean that there's no need or want of them; after all that's your opinion. Just because a person has an opinion of a product doesn't give them the right to obtain information that is really none of their concern. Who really cares how many widgets a company sells in a year. The major question and concern should be does the company make a product that is good enough for your needs and will be around in the long run to provide you service should you require it. This kind of goes back to the first thought.
I shoot landscape and like to produce what I call in your face images. By that I mean I regularly print in the neighborhood of 30x60 both on paper and canvas. I not only want but demand the highest amount of clarity that I can get/buy. Currently I'm shooting with a P45+ however I can see an upgrade in the future. I'll do my due diligence when the time is right and base my decision on that - not what I've been reading.
I will admit that I'm old school. I truly believe an artist, and yes I will include the likes of Leaf, Phase One and others should be able to except a reasonable return for their work just as we photographers should. I did not pay full price for either my P30+ when I first brought it nor for the P45+ when I upgraded, neither did I pay full price for my 645 or Cambo RS 1000. It's called the art of negotiation; much like when I have a client or person walk off the street and want to buy a $3000 piece of art.
That's it break is over back to work.
Don
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ah, okay - thank you! Just asking because at Photokina the Cambo guys told me they will look for a new groundglass as the WDS619 is quite dark.
I've ordered 2 lumigrid groundglasses from sheetfilm.be ... but still waiting for them. I'll keep you in the loop...
Thanks for the information as I hadn't heard that. I'll share what I see when I get the glass.
Cheers
Don
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I think anybody could find out How many Canons,Mercedes,Laptops were sold each year and it is very important information.
When you come down off that ledge could you please explain further why it through you for spin?? seriuosly.
[...]
I have read all over and even notice in my images both with Canon and Phase that the Lens are where we come to a dead end at the moment. I am not shooting LARGE format so it maybe different if someone wants to correct me.
[...]
It was not meant to make you nor Doug angry. I have a lot of repsect for Doug, but that does not change my opinion or my curiosity...
[...]
PS. Doug I do undertsand your printing theory but at what cost. Have you done any uprezing of a P45+ file and printed it at the Native P65 image size images? Can you actually see a difference in Print?
I am not going to get into the arguement of yes maybe people "want" more megapixels vs the actually benefits and print benefits.
The better Mamiya/Hasselblad/Contax lenses (generally the normal and longer focal lengths and macro lenses) are razor sharp with the P65+. The weaker lenses (generally the wide angle lenses) show some weakness with a 65+ (built in sw lens correction eliminates most of this weakness but I won't claim it's not there to start with). On a technical camera the good lenses (nearly any of the latest series) are rock solid with the 65+.
Uprez the 45+ to native 65+ and it will look damn good. But uprez the 65+ the same amount and the relative difference remains. Big prints, moderate to large crops, or a lot of post and the difference is not subtle.
As Reichman was saying in his review a ways back, when you look at a massive print which isn't just "sharp" but looks like a contact print it can be breath taking. Just as the people at the gigipixel project: http://www.gigapxl.org/ (http://www.gigapxl.org/)
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:doug@captureintegration.com)
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The better Mamiya/Hasselblad/Contax lenses (generally the normal and longer focal lengths and macro lenses) are razor sharp with the P65+. The weaker lenses (generally the wide angle lenses) show some weakness with a 65+ (built in sw lens correction eliminates most of this weakness but I won't claim it's not there to start with).
Doug, do you know anyone with a good copy of the Contax 35mm f/3.5 who is shooting on a P65+? I am curious how it holds up... I have some Adox CHS 25 from this afternoon which I need to develop which will give some clues, but I expect the P65+ to push harder still.
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Phase One raw files also open up in numerous 3rd party software, and without any need for running them through a de-compression utility first, as some must. Plus you also get to use Capture One, which for many is a preferred software solution to those 3rd party programs.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
On my DL28 I don't have to use decompression software. It shoots faster, has better live video when I use it on my Sinar, AND you didn't address the $2000.00 less. I think you'll find many people prefer to use Lightroom as opposed to C1.
Just my two cents.
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Doug, do you know anyone with a good copy of the Contax 35mm f/3.5 who is shooting on a P65+? I am curious how it holds up... I have some Adox CHS 25 from this afternoon which I need to develop which will give some clues, but I expect the P65+ to push harder still.
Gogopix on GetDPI.com is one of our customers shooting a Contax 65+.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:doug@captureintegration.com)
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Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
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Your not just talking about an extra 20 grand, our talking about an extra 20 grand plus lenses, plus new lesnes to come, plus backups of some kind, plus lighting, grip, computers, drives, software, time (lots and lots of time)
We were talking about the difference in price between different backs for the same system (discounted P30+ vs new P65+); the lens costs and such are about the same either way.
Sensor costs? Who knows, at least nobody outside of the secret world of medium format making and selling, but I find it hard to swallow that an extra few mm's costs $20,000 more considering it's the same box, everything goes in.
It is not a few extra mm: from P30+ or P40+ to P65+ is roughly doubling the sensor area, which due to decreasing yields will more than double the cost. Low volume items like DMF backs inevitably have significant mark-ups along the way, too, so each extra dollar of cost at the sensor factory gate adds several dollars to the retail price. Nor are the fabrication costs of sensors and other IC's such a deep secret; there is plenty to be read on the subject.
I do not understand how you can so firmly declare that the price difference is not justified by cost differences when you acknowledge knowing little or nothing about those costs.
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There are a surprising number of applications where 60 megapixels is not enough, but will have to do because it's the best single shot solution there is.
I have to agree with Doug. People often forget how much software effort is needed to complete an image from a Bayer sensor, which only captures one color at each pixel site. To form the complete image, the raw conversion software must estimate the missing two-thirds of the information that it was not able to physically capture. So, for a large sensor like the P65+, it must estimate 120MP of missing pixel data from the 60MP that it actually captures.
Looking at it another way ... the P65+ while a 60MP sensor, can only capture 15MP of Red information ... and through the magic of their CaptureOne software, it is able to estimate the missing (whopping?!) 45MP of Red pixel information .... and the same is true of the Blue information.
I think there is room for still more megapixels. 15MP of Red or Blue information is not that great.
Remember, there was a time when someone thought that 640K of memory is all that anybody with a computer would ever need. Likewise, I think you will see sensors with more megapixels and more color information in the future.
David
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Some years ago I was told of an effort to use Active Matrix TFT display manufacturing techniques to produce large format single capture sensors for medium format all the way up to large format, conceivably, even 8x10 inch. The idea was that with Active Matrix TFT design and manufacturing becoming so mature thanks to laptop and flat panel display sales, they should be able to make quite a nice large sensor very easily using the same techniques. If you search for patents, you will see in fact that there are already several patents on doing this, but so far, I have only heard of these types of sensors used for digital X-ray machines. Maybe it is only a matter of time until it becomes viable for photography???
BTW, anybody noticed the new pricing on the Hasselblad website for the H3DII-31 since this weekend or so? EUR 9.999 but without a lens. That works out to about USD 13,640.
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BTW, anybody noticed the new pricing on the Hasselblad website for the H3DII-31 since this weekend or so? EUR 9.999 but without a lens. That works out to about USD 13,640.
I bet Hasselblad will be the first to brake below US$ 10,000
they don't only want to survive, they already did that.
they want to lead period!!!
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I bet Hasselblad will be the first to brake below US$ 10,000
And I bet your right, I have a feeling there is one more round of big price drops before end of summer!
am
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I bet Hasselblad will be the first to brake below US$ 10,000
And I bet your right, I have a feeling there is one more round of big price drops before end of summer!
am
Phase One already offers several options below $10,000. P20, P20+, P21, P21+, and P30s can be purchased at the $7000-$9000 with warranty and dealer support. Anyone who dismisses a P20/21 because of the "low resolution" (16 and 18 megapixels respectively) should see how their files compare to a top-tier dSLR when blown up or pushed around.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:doug@captureintegration.com)
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Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
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"Phase One already offers several options below $10,000. P20, P20+, P21, P21+, and P30s can be purchased at the $7000-$9000 with warranty and dealer support."
Hi Doug
$7-9K
is that with the AFD 3 or back alone?
While I don't at all disagree with you on the P21+ (which I have shot), I think there is a difference between it and the H3D2-31 or the P30+
thanks
am
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While I don't at all disagree with you on the P21+ (which I have shot), I think there is a difference between it and the H3D2-31 or the P30+
thanks
am
The difference is about 1/3 a stop, $3,000 (and falling fast).
Wait a month a you can probably buy both.
B
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The difference is about 1/3 a stop, $3,000 (and falling fast).
Wait a month a you can probably buy both.
B
Take a look at an older test we did with a P21, P30+, P45+ and 1Ds Mk III.
http://www.captureintegration.com/tests/comparisons/ (http://www.captureintegration.com/tests/comparisons/)
Chris Lawery(e-mail Me) (http://mailto:chris@captureintegration.com)
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Sales Manager, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
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The difference is about 1/3 a stop, $3,000 (and falling fast).
Wait a month a you can probably buy both.
B
From what I have been told by pretty much all the reps for the 4 DB makers the total sales world wide is between 5000-6000 units. I do not know the breakdown. Here is the challenge drop the prices & increase total world wide sales? In the past year prices have dropped but the 5DII, Sony FF & D3X have entered the market. In Australia the 5DII is still flying out the door. I too am sitting on the side lines keeping my Mamiya kit while shooting with the 1DSIII.
Denis
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it's great we are seeing a downward growth of the market as these (perfectly good) 2nd + 3rd hand backs move into the hands of newer owners who would not afford/pay $25-$35k.
those who first bought these backs have upgraded and put in more $ to be on 50 or 60mp (myself included)
and our old P21 /P30 / P45 backs are now in the hands of those who used to shoot (eg) weddings or landscapes on a 1Ds2 but now have upgraded to a mamiya or contax for a similar price. I bet quite a few of those folks had a Mamiya or Contax 645 in their cupboard that they used to use anyways.
I do think a new camera body is badly needed to spur growth, one with multi zone AF, where everything is powered by the same one battery. hopefully the new mamiya-phaes one will have some of these attributes.
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i was going to purchase the p65+ but have elected to go with the s2 after hearing the positive report from a friend (who also uses phase backs) who tested a prototype:
http://www.s.leica-camera.com/robert-grischek (http://www.s.leica-camera.com/robert-grischek)
if the p65+ were 30k, i'd likely think thrice about the decision.
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i was going to purchase the p65+ but have elected to go with the s2 after hearing the positive report from a friend (who also uses phase backs) who tested a prototype:
http://www.s.leica-camera.com/robert-grischek (http://www.s.leica-camera.com/robert-grischek)
if the p65+ were 30k, i'd likely think thrice about the decision.
I might reconsider going with the S2 since it is still not shipping. It may have taken a bit of time, but at least the P65+ is shipping!
Chris Lawery(e-mail Me) (http://mailto:chris@captureintegration.com)
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Sales Manager, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 404.234.5195
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prices are just going to go down man.
it's a good time to sit and wait.
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interesting response from a phase one dealer:-) i do agree with your thrust - one in the hand is worth two in the bush.
I might reconsider going with the S2 since it is still not shipping. It may have taken a bit of time, but at least the P65+ is shipping!
Chris Lawery(e-mail Me) (http://mailto:chris@captureintegration.com)
__________________
Sales Manager, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 404.234.5195
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
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prices are just going to go down man.
it's a good time to sit and wait.
I believe most of the price reactions have occurred. Go back a year and medium format was $15,000 - $20,000 higher than high-end 35mm. Now it starts at $6,000 - $8,000 higher. There won't be much further reduction - if any - from any medium format companies that intend to stay in business.
So if your intention is to buy at some point, now is as good a time as any if your target is in sight.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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I believe most of the price reactions have occurred. Go back a year and medium format was $15,000 - $20,000 higher than high-end 35mm. Now it starts at $6,000 - $8,000 higher. There won't be much further reduction - if any - from any medium format companies that intend to stay in business.
So if your intention is to buy at some point, now is as good a time as any if your target is in sight.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
Steve,
I don't understand your numbers and medium format is all about numbers, right?
For a Phase P65+ at stated retail prices your talking approx. $31,500 more than a Nikon D3x. That 4 and 1/2 times the price of the top of the line phase vs. top of the line Nikon, 5 times the price of a top of the line Canon.
For a top of the line 50mpx Hasselblad it's maybe $10,000 less than the Phase but of course that's still 4 times the price of the Nikon and once you build a system we're back to 5 times the price.
Maybe your prices of $15,000-$20,000 are correct when your talking previous generation medium format models in the 30 to 39mpx range, but that equipment if falling out of the trees lightly used at almost even up Nikon/Canon prices.
What I really don't understand in your reply is the mention "intend to stay in business". We've all heard this talk of some maker(s) going away for years now, on this site, on this forum and from dealers and reps for a few years.
If I was in the medium format camera making business, this is the last phrase I would use, even if it was true, even if I had "insider" information, as it doesn't take much to spook anyone in the market for anything of high expense and mentioning this can become a self fullfilling prophecy. Look at Chrysler and GM.
B
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Just check out Pre-certifed list on Hasselbladusa site. H3D-31 w/o lens for $9,995 which is $7000 less than Phase One 31MP product. In other words Phase One wants to charge 70% more than the established system, using the same sensor and YES, IT IS NOT H3D II-31 and it is used, but still the 31MP sensor. Also see 22MP backs @ $7995 & H3D 39 @ $12995. All I am saying is $16995 for Phase One back & not a proven camera is exhorbitant.... Compared to Hassey's offering.
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Just check out Pre-certifed list on Hasselbladusa site. H3D-31 w/o lens for $9,995 which is $7000 less than Phase One 31MP product. In other words Phase One wants to charge 70% more than the established system, using the same sensor and YES, IT IS NOT H3D II-31 and it is used, but still the 31MP sensor. Also see 22MP backs @ $7995 & H3D 39 @ $12995. All I am saying is $16995 for Phase One back & not a proven camera is exhorbitant.... Compared to Hassey's offering.
Wow since when was Phase not a established system and the body not proven. Your also comparing used to new. Sorry nice argument but this is Apples to Oranges. Just FYI i just bought a used Phase P30+ Body and Lens for slightly less than what Hassy is offering in used. Please compare new prices , used truly means absolutely nothing except some ones willingness to take a bath on there gear. E-bay and forum prices are not to be judged as a real market indicator on used because some folks refuse too lose money and some are very desperate to unload there gear. I consider my purchase lucky and the willingness of the seller to let it go fast but not a indicator as what used prices really are. Used prices are a worthless argument because of this , go by new if Phase is more it is more big deal, just depends on what system you want just like buying a car. But going by price alone on camera and back is not how you decide on this. Your buying a system with several lenses and I suggest adding that all up on each system your thinking about in total and see how the numbers crunch up. Sure one back and camera maybe cheaper but 5 lenses that go with it can be a totally different story plus all the intangibles one considers on a system
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Wow since when was Phase not a established system and the body not proven. Your also comparing used to new. Sorry nice argument but this is Apples to Oranges. Just FYI i just bought a used Phase P30+ Body and Lens for slightly less than what Hassy is offering in used. Please compare new prices , used truly means absolutely nothing except some ones willingness to take a bath on there gear. E-bay and forum prices are not to be judged as a real market indicator on used because some folks refuse too lose money and some are very desperate to unload there gear. I consider my purchase lucky and the willingness of the seller to let it go fast but not a indicator as what used prices really are. Used prices are a worthless argument because of this , go by new if Phase is more it is more big deal, just depends on what system you want just like buying a car. But going by price alone on camera and back is not how you decide on this. Your buying a system with several lenses and I suggest adding that all up on each system your thinking about in total and see how the numbers crunch up. Sure one back and camera maybe cheaper but 5 lenses that go with it can be a totally different story plus all the intangibles one considers on a system
Guy, Phase One CAMERA is not an established system, when one compares it to Hasselblad. Phase One camera IS ver 1.00... Period. One does not need to buy ALL the lenses in a system to do the job. BH sells (for your benefit) H3D II 31 for $13,995 which is less then $16995 what Phase One offers as per O.P
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Guy, Phase One CAMERA is not an established system, when one compares it to Hasselblad. Phase One camera IS ver 1.00... Period. One does not need to buy ALL the lenses in a system to do the job. BH sells (for your benefit) H3D II 31 for $13,995 which is less then $16995 what Phase One offers as per O.P
Not sure how you can say that it is actually the third version of this body AFD, AFDII and now AFDIII exactly he same as the Phase brand. If you want to point it out like that is not the Hassy H version 2 being HD and HDII. Not really seeing your point here Mamiya has been around for 35 years as a system and Hassy even longer . Now 35 years is a long time to not call it established. Now how many Pro's have one lens, come on lets get real here at the end of the day you one would consider there system complete it would be about 4 lenses even the hobbyist with very little means would have more than 1 or 2 lenses. Bottom line it is what is in the bag that counts be it you bought a lens today and/or another one next year it is still a system you buy into. Now if you want a Hassy from B&H than buy it for that price , no one said things are equal pricing in life and if Phase feels there system is worth more than that is there strategy. Hassy is obviously giving it away to get people in the door it's called loss leader and every grocery store in America does this. Hassy wants you to get in and buy lenses and into the system. Good for them that is there marketing strategy but you can't fault Sinar, Leaf or Phase for having a different marketing strategy. You may not like it but trust me do the math on Hassy and Phase with 4 lenses the same focal length. It becomes a very close call on the money side but they are different systems and for some a leaf shutter system is not in the cards and others it is. I don't want a leaf system so there is no other choice except Phase or Contax in focal plane system. At that point how do you compare Contax is not made anymore. Now for leaf shutter you have Sinar and Hassy systems. Sorry but this is how you compare systems at least something that resembles the same Apple. Honestly your argument here makes no sense but believe what you will but I find these type of comments you make as being very biased. Myself i would buy either system depending on my need and I choice Phase because of my needs. Price is completely a secondary purchase decision. Makes no sense to buy a Hassy because it is cheaper if I need a focal plane system and makes zero sense to buy a Phase system if you need a leaf system unless you mixed and matched and that is a option some folks have done Phase back , Hassy H2 body. Now if you think you would pay 16995 to any dealer you want I am sure they would be glad to take full price for a Phase but it is a listing price and the way there strategy is call a dealer and get a quote. Different strategies on how they do business pick your poison but something you completely failed to point out is will B&H send you a loaner overnight, Not going to happen and even a customer for 35 years they would laugh at me. What you failed also to bring up is the service and support and that counts for something. You want to buy on price alone be my guest but for myself there is a lot more at stake than just price. I'm sorry but this is how you decide on what your needs are and price is very secondary but in the end does count. But certainly not the primary factor of what you need as a shooter.
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Not sure how you can say that it is actually the third version of this body AFD, AFDII and now AFDIII exactly he same as the Phase brand. If you want to point it out like that is not the Hassy H version 2 being HD and HDII. Not really seeing your point here Mamiya has been around for 35 years as a system and Hassy even longer . Now 35 years is a long time to not call it established. Now how many Pro's have one lens, come on lets get real here at the end of the day you one would consider there system complete it would be about 4 lenses even the hobbyist with very little means would have more than 1 or 2 lenses. Bottom line it is what is in the bag that counts be it you bought a lens today and/or another one next year it is still a system you buy into. Now if you want a Hassy from B&H than buy it for that price , no one said things are equal pricing in life and if Phase feels there system is worth more than that is there strategy. Hassy is obviously giving it away to get people in the door it's called loss leader and every grocery store in America does this. Hassy wants you to get in and buy lenses and into the system. Good for them that is there marketing strategy but you can't fault Sinar, Leaf or Phase for having a different marketing strategy. You may not like it but trust me do the math on Hassy and Phase with 4 lenses the same focal length. It becomes a very close call on the money side but they are different systems and for some a leaf shutter system is not in the cards and others it is. I don't want a leaf system so there is no other choice except Phase or Contax in focal plane system. At that point how do you compare Contax is not made anymore. Now for leaf shutter you have Sinar and Hassy systems. Sorry but this is how you compare systems at least something that resembles the same Apple. Honestly your argument here makes no sense but believe what you will but I find these type of comments you make as being very biased. Myself i would buy either system depending on my need and I choice Phase because of my needs. Price is completely a secondary purchase decision. Makes no sense to buy a Hassy because it is cheaper if I need a focal plane system and makes zero sense to buy a Phase system if you need a leaf system unless you mixed and matched and that is a option some folks have done Phase back , Hassy H2 body. Now if you think you would pay 16995 to any dealer you want I am sure they would be glad to take full price for a Phase but it is a listing price and the way there strategy is call a dealer and get a quote. Different strategies on how they do business pick your poison but something you completely failed to point out is will B&H send you a loaner overnight, Not going to happen and even a customer for 35 years they would laugh at me. What you failed also to bring up is the service and support and that counts for something. You want to buy on price alone be my guest but for myself there is a lot more at stake than just price. I'm sorry but this is how you decide on what your needs are and price is very secondary but in the end does count. But certainly not the primary factor of what you need as a shooter.
Hey Guy I just saw your post and was wondering something. Why would you "want" a focal plane shutter?
I am a mamiya guy for about 20 years now and was happy back in the days when they had Leaf shutter lens. Actually they were the only lens that went on my camera except for the 120 Macro and 110 2.8
Even on my Pentax 6x7 system I had all the leaf shutter lens.
I have been totally dissapointed with mamiya not coming up with atleast 1 leafshutter lens that they have been promising for years now!!!
Or even an adaptor for the old lens would be great!!!
Also I have been tempted to go with Hassleblad but do not want to hassle with selling off everything specially when the prices have dropped so much that alot of people seem to be dumping their MF stuff at the moment....
Also I never had the AFD just the ProTL , but I find the AFDII to III was a MINOR update and not worth beans if you ask me. What were they thinking?
They are kind of like Phase becasue the upgrades seem to be hardly anything???
Let's face it, Phase need a facelift whether they like it or not.
Also if they are going to be stubborn and NOT drop their prices, they might go down with the ship in flames.
Well not to get off subject here but I feel PhaseOne/Mamiya are making a BIG marketing mistake at the moment.
Hasslblad's are looking pretty good at the moment if you ask me. Although with a phaseOne back..:+}
Just my opinion.
Snook
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Hey Guy I just saw your post and was wondering something. Why would you "want" a focal plane shutter?
I am a mamiya guy for about 20 years now and was happy back in the days when they had Leaf shutter lens. Actually they were the only lens that went on my camera except for the 120 Macro and 110 2.8
Even on my Pentax 6x7 system I had all the leaf shutter lens.
I have been totally dissapointed with mamiya not coming up with atleast 1 leafshutter lens that they have been promising for years now!!!
Or even an adaptor for the old lens would be great!!!
Also I have been tempted to go with Hassleblad but do not want to hassle with selling off everything specially when the prices have dropped so much that alot of people seem to be dumping their MF stuff at the moment....
Also I never had the AFD just the ProTL , but I find the AFDII to III was a MINOR update and not worth beans if you ask me. What were they thinking?
They are kind of like Phase becasue the upgrades seem to be hardly anything???
Let's face it, Phase need a facelift whether they like it or not.
Also if they are going to be stubborn and NOT drop their prices, they might go down with the ship in flames.
Well not to get off subject here but I feel PhaseOne/Mamiya are making a BIG marketing mistake at the moment.
Hasslblad's are looking pretty good at the moment if you ask me. Although with a phaseOne back..:+}
Just my opinion.
Snook
I like fast shutter speeds for more wide open shooting or when I need it. Frankly Hassy looks great and if I did not go Phase i would have went Hassy. I'm a C1 fan though and that also was my big reason for going Phase but I have thought about a H2 solution as well. Nice thing is we have choices and I like the options out there, maybe not the ultimate solutions. I will say I think the P65+ is a bit pricey but looking at the P40+ it really is not so bad price wise but we also have to keep in mind which none of us do is what one thinks is high someone else may think as normal or lower. Perspective is something we tend to forget on other folks thoughts. We also tend not to put value on service and support but bottom line pricing we have to careful there as well. That stuff cost real money and I think many of us forget that part on those warranties and support functions some folks may want. Right now everyones business is down or at least 98 percent of us and totally understand looking at price first but we have to be careful we don't buy into something because of it and it don't work. I have had a couple e-mails from folks telling me this exact thing I bought it because it was a good price but it is not working the way I like
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but bottom line pricing we have to careful there as well. That stuff cost real money and I think many of us forget that part on those warranties and support functions some folks may want
If this is true, Phase could offer extended warranties straight from their website. Plug in your serial number, buy the warranty and get back to work.
That keeps the used backs with some support, that keeps the phase buyer somewhat protected and adds a new income stream for Phase.
On the other hand, why pay $16,000 for a new p30+ when you can buy them for around half that used? It might be a risk, but honestly unless it's a manufacturer defect, a warranty isn't going to cover user error anyway.
B
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Agree be nice to buy them from Phase on there website but I know you can buy extra warranty from a dealer. Actually I asked this same question on my forum , try to find a link from all the OEM's here
Found it http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6876 (http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6876)
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Just check out Pre-certifed list on Hasselbladusa site. H3D-31 w/o lens for $9,995 which is $7000 less than Phase One 31MP product. In other words Phase One wants to charge 70% more than the established system, using the same sensor and YES, IT IS NOT H3D II-31 and it is used, but still the 31MP sensor. Also see 22MP backs @ $7995 & H3D 39 @ $12995. All I am saying is $16995 for Phase One back & not a proven camera is exhorbitant.... Compared to Hassey's offering.
Sean
You are not comparing apples to apples. If you are discussing an H3D-31 with no lens for $9,995, then that price is pretty easily matched by most Phase One dealers. You are comparing it to the P30+ kit, rather than P30 kit, which is the appropriate generational comparison.
And while getting the lowest cost is attractive, it is not our objection as a company to deliver the lowest cost, but rather the best value for you to spend your money on.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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Hey Guy I just saw your post and was wondering something. Why would you "want" a focal plane shutter?
I am a mamiya guy for about 20 years now and was happy back in the days when they had Leaf shutter lens. Actually they were the only lens that went on my camera except for the 120 Macro and 110 2.8
Even on my Pentax 6x7 system I had all the leaf shutter lens.
I have been totally dissapointed with mamiya not coming up with atleast 1 leafshutter lens that they have been promising for years now!!!
Or even an adaptor for the old lens would be great!!!
Snook
damn Snook you're like a broken record on this leaf shutter business.
there's lots of people with needs different from yours, and I guess all those very happy campers who have been using Mamiya (and Contax and Hassie mostly) with focal plane shutters are "wrong" according to you.
I like and need a focal plane shutter, the fast speeds are great for my work, and same for the huge majority I suspect, so, please give it a rest will you.
we GET the message you would like a leaf shutter - and posting it here again and again and... AGAIN... isnt going to change anything, it just makes people not take you seriously
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Steve,
I don't understand your numbers and medium format is all about numbers, right?
For a Phase P65+ at stated retail prices your talking approx. $31,500 more than a Nikon D3x. That 4 and 1/2 times the price of the top of the line phase vs. top of the line Nikon, 5 times the price of a top of the line Canon.
For a top of the line 50mpx Hasselblad it's maybe $10,000 less than the Phase but of course that's still 4 times the price of the Nikon and once you build a system we're back to 5 times the price.
Maybe your prices of $15,000-$20,000 are correct when your talking previous generation medium format models in the 30 to 39mpx range, but that equipment if falling out of the trees lightly used at almost even up Nikon/Canon prices.
What I really don't understand in your reply is the mention "intend to stay in business". We've all heard this talk of some maker(s) going away for years now, on this site, on this forum and from dealers and reps for a few years.
If I was in the medium format camera making business, this is the last phrase I would use, even if it was true, even if I had "insider" information, as it doesn't take much to spook anyone in the market for anything of high expense and mentioning this can become a self fullfilling prophecy. Look at Chrysler and GM.
B
My only point is - and yes a better choice of words does exist - that there is a threshold by which medium format companies can reduce their price by and still make a profit. I believe we're pretty close to that right now, so I don't see much room for further significant reductions. And that any company selling product also has such a threshold to maintain for profitability. I did not mean to infer that companies were at risk.
Current, not previous generation products in the 30MP - 39MP range are available for $15,000 - $20,000. That similar products of older generations are also available lightly used for less is just further proof of my other point that medium format options are available for much less of a delta compared to 35mm than just a year ago.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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damn Snook you're like a broken record on this leaf shutter business.
we GET the message you would like a leaf shutter - and posting it here again and again and... AGAIN... isnt going to change anything,
Narikin, I guess it is not so much the question of what Snook wants, it is a question of what PhaseOne promised to sell. Up to now there is nothing and they promised the lens for delivery some time ago. Every time the PhaseOne leaf shutter lenses are mentioned, there is dead silence from the reps and dealers. I asked it before, never got answered. Maybe you remeber the first anouncements regarding the PhaseOne camera. "Best of both worlds" "compatible with our soon to be released leaf shutter lenses" .....and so on.
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It has been about 2 months since Phase One has a controlling interest in Mamiya. There is still items to come this year, DF body, grip & 80mm LS lens. Also the new Mamiya backs M18, M25 & M31. (all current Phase backs with a Mamiya badge). That new Red camera coming next year that will mount 645 Mamiya glass looks exciting.
Denis
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Narikin, I guess it is not so much the question of what Snook wants, it is a question of what PhaseOne promised to sell. Up to now there is nothing and they promised the lens for delivery some time ago. Every time the PhaseOne leaf shutter lenses are mentioned, there is dead silence from the reps and dealers. I asked it before, never got answered. Maybe you remeber the first anouncements regarding the PhaseOne camera. "Best of both worlds" "compatible with our soon to be released leaf shutter lenses" .....and so on.
absolutely right heinrich, its a pain!
on photokina the mamiya guys showed me some prototypes of the lenses and i was told they
are coming early this year. i bought the camera hoping that including the usual delay i can get them in early summer.
but it seems i was pretty naive again. deafening silence whenever i ask somebody official today.
i call that unfair practices, actually a pretty impertinent way of cheating customers - i might have bought another camera if i would have known that. and yes, all those sales members who usually like to praise their products in this forum are warmly invited to give a little explanation regarding the issue.
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damn Snook you're like a broken record on this leaf shutter business.
there's lots of people with needs different from yours, and I guess all those very happy campers who have been using Mamiya (and Contax and Hassie mostly) with focal plane shutters are "wrong" according to you.
I like and need a focal plane shutter, the fast speeds are great for my work, and same for the huge majority I suspect, so, please give it a rest will you.
we GET the message you would like a leaf shutter - and posting it here again and again and... AGAIN... isnt going to change anything, it just makes people not take you seriously
you are kidding right
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damn Snook you're like a broken record on this leaf shutter business.
there's lots of people with needs different from yours, and I guess all those very happy campers who have been using Mamiya (and Contax and Hassie mostly) with focal plane shutters are "wrong" according to you.
I like and need a focal plane shutter, the fast speeds are great for my work, and same for the huge majority I suspect, so, please give it a rest will you.
we GET the message you would like a leaf shutter - and posting it here again and again and... AGAIN... isnt going to change anything, it just makes people not take you seriously
Hey Bonehead.
I am not the one that promised Leaf shutter lens'..
I also never gave my opinion about focal plane shutters, I ask why that was a necessity in the post by guy. He said he needed them and was wondering why. So where you got I was giving any advice or opion. I think you need to read it again...
Push the ignore (me) button if you don't like me asking about something..
Thanks
Snook
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Well Snook my theory and it is only a theory no inside data is Mamiya was having some money issues awhile back but the infusion of money from Phase may have solved this but it may just have delayed a lot of those promised lenses. Now this is a theory and could be totally wrong but just a gut feeling. I do agree though we need to see those lenses and if they can crank out a newly designed body than that would certainly make me a happy camper.
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silence is golden....