Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Colour Management => Topic started by: Rhossydd on April 23, 2009, 04:23:57 am
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Can someone explain why there is still a rendering intents option available when selecting “Printer manages color” when printing from CS4 ?
I would have expected it to just pass the data straight to the printer unaltered. How can it apply a perceptual rendering intent if it doesn’t know what profile the printer driver will use ? or does it just add some sort of tag to the unaltered image data to get the printer to use the required rendering intent ?
Further what difference is there between ‘no color management’ and ‘printer manages colors’ ?
TIA
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Can someone explain why there is still a rendering intents option available when selecting “Printer manages color” when printing from CS4 ?
I would have expected it to just pass the data straight to the printer unaltered. How can it apply a perceptual rendering intent if it doesn’t know what profile the printer driver will use ?
The Rendering Intent option has no effect in this case. (Ideally it would be disabled to make it clearer.)
or does it just add some sort of tag to the unaltered image data to get the printer to use the required rendering intent ?
Further what difference is there between ‘no color management’ and ‘printer manages colors’ ?
The tagging is the difference. When you use Printer Manages Colors, PS tags the document with the document color space and then passes the image data off unmodified to the OS for the OS to perform the required output-specific color transformation. When you use No Color Management then neither PS nor the OS should be applying any color transformation whatsoever to the image data. (The underlying mechanisms by which NCM operates is OS-dependent and unfortunately has been a source of frustration for Mac users recently due to miscommunications / misunderstandings among the new OS X print API and some printer driver implementations. Ask any Leopard CS4 user who has tried to print Epson ABW images with No Color Management on Leopard.)
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Brilliant, thanks for such a helpful and comprehensive answer Eric.
(The underlying mechanisms by which NCM operates is OS-dependent and unfortunately has been a source of frustration for Mac users recently due to miscommunications / misunderstandings among the new OS X print API and some printer driver implementations. Ask any Leopard CS4 user who has tried to print Epson ABW images with No Color Management on Leopard.)
Yes, I'm trying to support a Mac user who seems to be having terrible trouble with this at the moment, and people say Macs are simple.....
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On a more general note, I'm wondering whether problems of un-sticky driver settings experienced with Epson drivers for some current professional printer models and Mac OSs have finally been resolved.
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The Rendering Intent option has no effect in this case. (Ideally it would be disabled to make it clearer.)
Agree 100%. In the same manner, it would be great if unavailable rendering intents were grayed out in "Convert to profile".
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On a more general note, I'm wondering whether problems of un-sticky driver settings experienced with Epson drivers for some current professional printer models and Mac OSs have finally been resolved.
For the most part yes. In addition, all of the relevant settings are displayed in 1 single dialog box now if Photoshop is managing colors.
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What part remains unresolved?
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Brilliant, thanks for such a helpful and comprehensive answer Eric.
Yes, I'm trying to support a Mac user who seems to be having terrible trouble with this at the moment, and people say Macs are simple.....
What are the problems? Why are you trying to let the printer manage color instead of Photoshop? Most of the issues can be resolved pretty easily if we knew what the challenges are.
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What are the problems? Why are you trying to let the printer manage color instead of Photoshop?
This is a specific issue relating to Epson's ABW mode...with the most recent drivers (at least the 79/9900) sending a print using "No Color Management" barfs (meaning the image doesn't actually spool–just goes in to the ether) so you need to use a different approach. You can either send it 'Printer Manages Color' and try to fight the gamma game or send it Adobe RGB (which the driver is expecting) and then also 'manage color' using the Advanced B&W mode in the driver. It's one of the rare cases of intentional double color management being desirable...
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What are the problems?
Print output changes between 'no color management' and 'printer manages color' in CS4, which as Eric says shouldn't be the case.
Discovered when a customer has tried to print out profiling targets for a Canon Pro 9000 on Mac OS 10.4.11 and the resultant prints were way too dark although all the settings were correct.
Slowly going through all the possibilities to find out what's going(gone) wrong, but even though the customer is technically competent diagnosing OS/driver failures is never going to be easy.
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What are the problems? Why are you trying to let the printer manage color instead of Photoshop? Most of the issues can be resolved pretty easily if we knew what the challenges are.
Wayne: I mentioned what the problem is. You said it was partly resolved, so I asked what part isn't resolved.
Who ever said *I* let the printer manage colour - I never do.
Yes I agree, it's usually easier to solve problems when you know what they are - trite, isn't it; but beleve it or not sometimes that just doesn't happen.
Jeff, yes what you're addressing is the specific issue at play - I was expanding content a bit to glean intelligence about any resolution of the broader issue related to avoiding the need for recycling through driver settings when combining Epson drivers (various versions) with Mac OSX - i.o.w - one of those rare occasions where one would hope for Windows-like functionality on the Mac. It's an old story - I'm wondering whether it's finally dealt with.
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Hi Mark, with a fully-compliant Leopard driver, I am not aware of any outstanding issues when printing on Mac Leopard in terms of color management. The steps are the same as when printing from Windows, except for the physical appearance of the dialog boxes. That is, I don't believe there is anything that Apple needs to address/fix at this time.
One of the issues that has come up is due to Apple's printing interfaces for developers, which have evolved over time (and thus apps like LR, Photoshop, etc. as well as printer drivers need to evolve, too). When I say "interfaces" here I'm talking about under-the-hood programming interfaces which are transparent to the end user -- except for the results when something goes bad. The old interfaces were well tested on the driver front since folks used them for years. On the Mac side, folks didn't start using the new interfaces till CS4. And that's where some of the trouble started, because even though CS4 was doing the right thing (and we double-checked with Apple to be sure that we didn't goof), some of the drivers have minor glitches when using the new interfaces and those are now being encountered. One might ask, "well if the old interfaces worked why change anything?" Because all the new technology on the OS side depends on migrating to the new interfaces. For example, Mac folks want 64-bit Photoshop, right? Can't do that using the old printer interfaces.
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The Customer Speaks
I am the customer referred to by Rhossydd. I believe it would be helpful to share the results of my tests with everyone as they have far reaching and important implications.
Firstly though, a big thank you to Rhossydd – for his help and forbearance, and the honourable and generous way he has dealt with the issues that have arisen.
Over the last four days (and over fifty prints) I have undertaken extensive and meticulous tests to identify the cause of the problem; namely that targets for profiling, printed with ‘no colour management’, were printing far too dark and with what appeared to be a colour cast.
I have conclusively eliminated the printer, the printer drivers, the Mac OS, corrupted preference files, corrupted user accounts, incorrect Photoshop settings, incorrect printer driver settings, the ‘sticky settings issue, and user error as possible causes of the problem.
I can say with 95% certainty that my tests, conducted using Mac OSX 10.4.11, have proved the following:
1. That, printing to a Canon Pro9000 or iP4500, Photoshop CS4 does not print accurate targets suitable for producing profiles. This applies to both the No Colour Management (NCM) and the Printer Manages Colour (PMC) settings.
2. Photoshop CS and CS2 are not effected.
I did not test CS3.
Furthermore, colour managed prints (using the same accurate profile made in CS2), printed in CS2 and CS4, show subtle differences. This may not be an issue except in the most critical applications.
It is likely that the problem will not be confined to the two Canon printers above since many other Canon printers share the same driver architecture.
Reading posts and discussions on other websites would seem to indicate that this problem is also manifest with some Epson printers and may also effect Mac OSX 10.5.
I have to conclude, therefore, that Photoshop CS4 cannot be replied upon to print targets sufficiently accurate to produce reliable profiles for a colour managed workflow.
The fact that this is only just being reported can be attributed to four factors.
1. That many CS4 users are continuing to use profiles made under older versions of Photoshop and have yet to make new profiles using CS4.
2. Some users may not immediately notice a problem, or may ascribe it to other causes.
3. Some users may take the line of least resistance and use a previous version of Photoshop to work around the problem.
4. Some users are still using the older versions of Photoshop not effected.
If Eric Chan is correct, and Adobe changed the APIs in Photoshop CS4, this begs question of whether Adobe sufficiently tested CS4 before release ?
If Adobe did not test their software, and therefore failed to identify this critical problem, this would suggest negligence on Adobe’s part. If Adobe identified the problem but then did not inform users that a potentially serious colour management issue existed this would suggest wilful or gross negligence.
With all due respect to Eric Chan it is not good enough to say that Adobe simply followed the ‘conventional’ path and ‘followed the rules’ regarding API implementation. The experience of end users does not correspond to a “minor glitch” and, in my case, has been extremely costly in terms of time (over five days in all), lost revenues, and materials.
In UK law providers of goods and services (and this includes software) have to supply them as “fit for purpose”. Clearly, in terms of colour management, CS4 is not fit for purpose. Neither can Adobe hide behind its labyrinthine licensing terms since any exclusions would be ruled unlawful under the UK’s ‘Unfair Contract Terms’ Act.
My strong and unequivocal recommendation is that representatives from Adobe, Apple, and the printer manufacturers meet together – with the utmost urgency – and provide a rapid and complete solution. It is simply not good enough to pass this ‘over the wall’ saying “it’s not our problem”. It is. All of yours. Please solve it. And quickly.
Clearly identify the problem, make it and your solution public; and publicise it widely and thoroughly.
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SimonS, unfortunately you may have misunderstood my post. There is not much that Adobe can do if a printer driver is not behaving correctly. This is an issue you'll have to take up with Canon and hope they provide a driver update.
There was a similar issue not that long ago with some of the Canon large format printers on Leopard and some users spent a long time explaining why they were absolutely convinced Adobe was at fault, and some Adobe staff (myself included) spent a long time explaining why it was a driver issue ... which was ultimately resolved when Canon released a driver update.
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I have to conclude, therefore, that Photoshop CS4 cannot be replied upon to print targets sufficiently accurate to produce reliable profiles for a colour managed workflow.
I agree with your conclusion.
I came to the same conclusion a few months ago when trying to create profiles for my Epson 7900.
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....410&hl=7900 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=31410&hl=7900)
I now use Photoshop CS1 for profiling my Epson printers.
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Hi Mark, with a fully-compliant Leopard driver, I am not aware of any outstanding issues when printing on Mac Leopard in terms of color management.
The problem is finding them! And of course, the app has to be compliant too.
Printer Manages Color on paper works and I suppose there are examples where it does, but most of the time, it doesn't where application manage colors more often does. It would be useful if someone (Apple? What am I thinking, a printer manufacturer) listed app's and drivers that really did work with PMC.
As for rendering intent, I suspect the default intent built into the profile is what's used here. There can't be no rendering intent of course.
As for targets, you simply have to use a No Color Management option in the app. That's why we are very fortunate that Photoshop continues to provide that option. I've seen no issues nor have those who've sent me targets, doing so in CS4. And I've had no issues using profiles built in older versions either. That said, the large majority of those are printing targets from Epson drivers although I've done Canon printers as well and again, no issues. Since the targets are printed by others and sent to me, I can't comment on what settings, OS or other factors were used.
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Hi Mark, with a fully-compliant Leopard driver, I am not aware of any outstanding issues when printing on Mac Leopard in terms of color management. The steps are the same as when printing from Windows, except for the physical appearance of the dialog boxes. That is, I don't believe there is anything that Apple needs to address/fix at this time.
One of the issues that has come up is due to Apple's printing interfaces for developers, which have evolved over time (and thus apps like LR, Photoshop, etc. as well as printer drivers need to evolve, too). When I say "interfaces" here I'm talking about under-the-hood programming interfaces which are transparent to the end user -- except for the results when something goes bad. The old interfaces were well tested on the driver front since folks used them for years. On the Mac side, folks didn't start using the new interfaces till CS4. And that's where some of the trouble started, because even though CS4 was doing the right thing (and we double-checked with Apple to be sure that we didn't goof), some of the drivers have minor glitches when using the new interfaces and those are now being encountered. One might ask, "well if the old interfaces worked why change anything?" Because all the new technology on the OS side depends on migrating to the new interfaces. For example, Mac folks want 64-bit Photoshop, right? Can't do that using the old printer interfaces.
Thanks Eric - somehow this message did not hit my inbox and I am just seeing it from another post now. This is re-assuring news and removes one more reason for not migrating to Mac one of these days, as my XP box becomes dated by more demanding versions of PS.
Mark
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Hi Eric.
I do not believe I misunderstood your post.
You did say that Adobe had changed the APIs did you not ?
OK. So how did Adobe make sure that the printer manufacturers were aware of this; and that they were aware that the changes could seriously effect the ability to create a colour managed workflow ?
Did not Adobe test CS4 with different printers (or, at the very least, with a selection of professional printers) and identify this problem ? Having identified this problem did they make the manufacturers aware of this ? Did they post warnings on the internet and with the installation software so that users would be aware of the pitfalls ?
And there you go again, handing the problem 'over the wall'*.
May I respectfully suggest that it would be more constructive to engage in dialogue with Apple and the printer manufacturers and focus on providing a solution.
* With equal respect may I suggest Adobe takes a look at pages 78 though 83 of the excellent book 'Four Days With Dr. Deming' (how cooperation improves standards). See this URL: http://deming.org/ (http://deming.org/)
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What part remains unresolved?
It is more of a case that it works almost all of the time, but occasionally doesn't. The settings appear to be stored based on paper type and size, so adding a new custom size sometimes reverts to default settings. It appears sometimes a paper size gets corrupted and further settings don't stick.
The fact that all of the relevant settings show up in the same dialog box makes it pretty painless when it doesn't stick ... easy to see and fix. No shuffling through multiple dialog boxes, no accidently leaving printing color management accidently on.
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Wayne: I mentioned what the problem is. You said it was partly resolved, so I asked what part isn't resolved.
Who ever said *I* let the printer manage colour - I never do.
Yes I agree, it's usually easier to solve problems when you know what they are - trite, isn't it; but beleve it or not sometimes that just doesn't happen.
None of my comments you are quoting referenced you ... they were directed to the OP. I didn't say anything regarding what you were doing with the printer managing colors and wasn't asking what your problems were.
The original post really didn't reference what the problem was. The OP responded and clarified it, and as it turns out the problem is something that has been analyzed extensively and well discussed here as Ryan pointed out.
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Thanks Wayne - both posts clarify everything.
Mark
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I do not believe I misunderstood your post.
You did say that Adobe had changed the APIs did you not ?
I don't recall saying that, though my post above may have been unclear. Apple changed the printer driver APIs and requested both applications and printer drivers switch to using the new APIs. Adobe said "OK" and did so starting with CS4. Epson said "OK" and added support for the new interfaces in their Leopard drivers for RGB color printing, which works fine (though as Jeff noted above there is still a remaining glitch with the ABW side of the driver). Canon said "OK" and added support for the new interfaces as well in their Leopard drivers -- at least for some printers, such as their iPF series. It is unclear to me (i.e., I simply don't know) what they did with their older drivers (e.g., for Tiger), or whether they updated the drivers for the Pro9000 or iP4500.
OK. So how did Adobe make sure that the printer manufacturers were aware of this; and that they were aware that the changes could seriously effect the ability to create a colour managed workflow ?
As I mentioned above, it is Apple's API, not ours, so it has been Apple notifying the developers (including the ones at Adobe, Epson, Canon, HP, etc.) about API changes.
Did not Adobe test CS4 with different printers (or, at the very least, with a selection of professional printers) and identify this problem ? Having identified this problem did they make the manufacturers aware of this ? Did they post warnings on the internet and with the installation software so that users would be aware of the pitfalls ?
Yes, we have lots of printers internally from many different makers and we tested them printing from various platforms. I say "we" generally here because, although I am aware of the general procedure, I am not actually part of the PS dev team and hence don't know exactly which printers we have, and exactly which versions of the driver were tested, etc. I do know that we don't have every single printer made by the Big Three, so it is possible that, say, we don't have a iP4500 in-house and hence didn't test it directly.
My understanding, though, is that we also gave early builds of CS4 to the printer makers (e.g., Canon, Epson, HP, etc.) so that they could also test it with their own printers.
And there you go again, handing the problem 'over the wall'*.
May I respectfully suggest that it would be more constructive to engage in dialogue with Apple and the printer manufacturers and focus on providing a solution.
As I noted in my first post in this thread, we have already double-checked with Apple (actually even more times than that) that we are using their printer interfaces correctly. We have also worked with Apple to see if Photoshop can provide internal workarounds so that even if a driver isn't fully compliant, it will still print correctly. Unfortunately none of the workarounds were considered satisfactory (e.g., they would all break when Snow Leopard comes out, or if the printer driver version changes, etc.), and Apple strongly recommended that the real fix come from the drivers. We have also had direct dialogue with the printer makers with regards to driver issues, but ultimately they are the ones to decide whether or not they will update their drivers. Epson did so for their latest printers, Canon did so for their iPF-series printers, but possibly not for the iP4500/Pro9000.
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Hi Eric.
Many thanks for your patient and clear explanation of the history behind this. This certainly makes things a lot clearer.
Some new printer drivers, from Canon, have been posted on their US website and I will be trying these in due course.
Moving on from this may I offer the following suggestion. These are offered not in criticism, but as a realistic suggestion to be seriously considered.
CONCLUSIONS AND SUGGESTIONS
The conclusions I have dawn from what I heave learned so far is that this seems to be a communications problem. Principally, communication with the end user.
Adobe changed the ‘APIs’ in CS4 in good faith but did not inform end users that this could cause a problem with older printer drivers. The ReadMe with the release of CS4 mentions problems with “some Canon printers” using ‘Printer Manages Color’ but fails to mention that a problem exists for ‘No Color Management’, and fails to mention a problem for Epson printers.
Of more use would have been a general warning for all printers along with a simple explanation. My five days of troubleshooting could thus have been reduced to a few hours.
Canon’s European and US websites are mute on the issue, and even their download sections and driver ReadMe files fail to mention the problem or identify which drivers resolve the it. Canon’s European Technical Support were entirely ignorant of the issue. Their recommendation was to get the printer replaced.
Epson users appear to have suffered a similar fate. Had Canon’s internal and external communications been even adequate I could have solved the problem in a matter of minutes !
My suggestion is that Adobe and the printer manufacturers need to be more focused on their end users and what implications any changes to their software might have in day-to-day use. Communication of these changes is essential, even if a solution is not immediately available.
Eric, could you take this feedback to Adobe ?
Many thanks, again, for your help with this issue.
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Eric, could you take this feedback to Adobe ?
I'm quite sure Adobe is well aware the issues since what you mention are all pretty obvious. But Eric in not even on the team that works on Photoshop...he works on the Camera Raw team. Heck, Eric is in Boston while the print engineer is in Minneapolis and the product manager is in San Jose so it's not like theywould even strike up a conversation in the hallways...
I know the guys working on the printing engine in Photoshop and the amount of work that has been done in the last couple of revs to fix old crufty problems has been substantial. Add to this the fact that Apple has once again forced Adobe down a certain direction when they killed the Carbon 64bit APIs which forces Adobe to switch to Cocoa APIs for Photoshop CS5 (assuming you WANT to get a 64 bit version of Photoshop), some of the work had been done in CS3 and now in CS4 with the API switch.
But Adobe is not in the position of wanting (nor should THEY have to) be the industry watchdog for all the things that may be used with Photoshop. The fact that older print drivers may not run as expected in new versions of Photoshop or in OS's should not come as a surprise to users...nor can you expect Adobe to do compatibility testing with each and every piece of equipment in every region of the world.
Rather, I think you should get down Canon's throat for being dense and rather backwards and primitive with their Mac print driver development...and Apple for not having all their 3rd party developers working together (and for making development on the Mac such a royale pain in the royal)
But, seriously, this ain't Eric's job ya know? He just hangs around to help where he can–and thank you very much for that Eric!!!
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System: PC/Vista x64/Epson R2400: Monitor calibration is done with Eye One Display 2 and basICColor Display.
Been having a nightmare with dark prints via CS4. Had tried everything.
Just found the solution on this site>
http://www.photographyri.com/index.php/200...t-engine-proble (http://www.photographyri.com/index.php/2008/11/11/photoshop-cs4-vs-cs2-print-engine-proble)
As per the suggestion, I reset my R2400 as the Default Printer and, for whatever reason, my prints are now exactly what I'm seeing on the monitor.
For the record, I came to CS4 via the (CD) upgrade from CS3. During installation of the upgrade, the printer was connected. Maybe this had something to do with it.
One very happy bunny!
D.
ps. Where would we be without Google!?
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This thread made me curious to see whether similar problems exist with Windows XP, because if they did, it would be significant information for people migrating from PSCS3 to PSCS4.
Anyhow, it seems not. I am on Windows XP Professional SP2, using an Epson 3800 with Epson driver version 5.5.1 and a custom profile for Ilford Gold Fibre Silk which I made with my XRite Pulse Elite. Letting Photoshop Manage Colors with BPC on in both cases, I selected a file with a good range of hues and for which any difference of luminosity would be readily visible. I printed it sequentially using CS3 and CS4. There is no difference between the prints.
Unless Adobe's print module needs to be different in mission-critical respects between the PC and the MAC implementations of Photoshop, this test would seem to isolate the problem as an OS issue, because nothing happened between CS3 and CS4 PC versions of Photoshop to affect the prints.
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I am too on 32 bit Windows XP SP2, and have extreme problems with PS CS4. I normally use CS3 for my printing and everything that everyone suggest about color management worked as stated - use application manage color, although I really never see any difference between printer manage color and application manage color. After all when printer manage color you still use specific ICC by choosing paper type in printer driver.
It is just not true that you dont have color management with option printer manage color - when I add new paper to my printer driver it specifically ask me to include ICC profile connected with paper, also type of paper - which sets ink limit and how much printing heds will rise from the base during printing.
I use only HP printers: 8750, 8550, 8850, 9180 and Z3100. Soft proofing was close enough to final print but never perfect, after all we talk about different media, we compare monitor which is source of light with print which is reflective media, surface is not identical also. Soft proof works best for glossy photo paper whose surface approximate surface of monitor. Matt papers differs mostly.
I run photography school in camera club, which include lessons about printing. I also print pictures for an exhibitions. I printed thousands of images from different sources: small compacts, Holga, Lomo, scanned films of various formats (B&W, negative and slides), semi-professional DSLR, professional DSLR, digital medium format of various kind. Everything runs pretty smooth for a few years.
Than a nightmare stikes I need more machines for clasees and naturaly it is not possible to buy CS3 any more - so we buy CS4. More than hundred prints later I still can not get proper picture from CS4 if I let Photoshop manage color. I got decent picture - find some workaround like to print on default printer in printer & faxes (before that any printing was disaster - looks like printer use chocholate to make print), but prints do not have life in it, details are blurred, colors muted, gamut smaller.
I hope I not need to say that everything is calibrated - I do this for living for some time. I not consider myself for any kind of guru, just experienced user, printing is not my main job, just a part of my photography therefore I still have a lot of unknowns - I will like to know much more - but just can not find answers anywhere.
So CS4 if for my purpose extremly bad investment - Adobe did not gave me option to buy CS3 or even CS2 anymore. Hope that CS5 will be better, although this means spending a lot of money for upgrades which after all may not work any better.
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Canon said "OK" and added support for the new interfaces as well in their Leopard drivers -- at least for some printers, such as their iPF series. It is unclear to me (i.e., I simply don't know) what they did with their older drivers (e.g., for Tiger), or whether they updated the drivers for the Pro9000 or iP4500.
Epson did so for their latest printers, Canon did so for their iPF-series printers, but possibly not for the iP4500/Pro9000.
Just to clarify what Canon did for their iPF printer drivers was to special case the current applications (current as to when the drivers were written) that print using Apple's new printing path. You can find the application listed in this file, /Library/Printers/Canon/GARO/Frameworks/GARO_CUPS.framework/Versions/Current/Resources/AppColorMatchingInfo.xml. If an application (internal name listed in Info.plist in the package) is not list in the AppColorMatchingInfo.xml file the driver will default to Color management when application manages color is selected. If the application is listed in the AppColorMatchingInfo.xml file then the driver will default to No color correction when application manages color is selected.
So LR3 and PSCS5 are not listed in the AppColorMatchingInfo.xml file so you will need to add them in if you want No color correction in the driver when application manages color is selected.
Whether this applies to non Canon iPF drivers I do not know but it would be something worth looking into.
Doyle