Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: kuau on April 18, 2009, 02:43:17 pm
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I am still in the marker for a home 24 inch printer and although I would love the new Epson 7900 it's hard not to take a hard look at the Z3200 with it's 1200.00 trade in program right now bringing the cost down to like 1732.00.
Any thoughts?
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As a happy 3100 owner - I say don't hesitate. Get it.
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I am still in the marker for a home 24 inch printer and although I would love the new Epson 7900 it's hard not to take a hard look at the Z3200 with it's 1200.00 trade in program right now bringing the cost down to like 1732.00.
Any thoughts?
For me that would be a no-brainer, the HP at that price is a STEAL! no clogging ever, built-in profiler, SUPERB B&W printing, improved red gamut, starwheel problems largely fixed.
My Z3100 produces gorgeous prints.
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For me that would be a no-brainer, the HP at that price is a STEAL! no clogging ever, built-in profiler, SUPERB B&W printing, improved red gamut, starwheel problems largely fixed.
My Z3100 produces gorgeous prints.
And low cost of ownership. It is frugal on ink, both in printing and head maintenance.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/)
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I am still in the marker for a home 24 inch printer and although I would love the new Epson 7900 it's hard not to take a hard look at the Z3200 with it's 1200.00 trade in program right now bringing the cost down to like 1732.00.
Any thoughts?
Where did you find that pricing?
Don
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And low cost of ownership. It is frugal on ink, both in printing and head maintenance.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/)
Kuau,
Yes, I have a thought: Where can I buy a Z3200 at that price? Seriously. I was ready to buy the Z3200 but had 2 different dealers tell me why I should buy epson or canon rather than the Z. One said "don't get the Z because I don't like gloss enhancer, with the new ink technology you don't need gloss enhancer." Another told me the Z had such a small color gamut, and how little support HP gives the fine art photography mkt. Wow, I thought why would they say small color gamut! I decided it had more to do with their own bias/relationships with their suppliers/profitability, etc.
In the face of confusion I was ready to spring for a Canon ipf 6100 since the price was so much less and everybody who has one seems to like it. If I can get the Z 24" model for under $2k that sounds like a no brainer. Am I missing something? Then all I have to do is decide whether or not to additionally install Qimage--which I'm told will make life manageable when I need to gang multiple small prints (which I have to do frequently). So where to get this price?
ET
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Where did you find that pricing?
Don
I just purchased it on ebay from : ewarehouse909
The price was 2932.00 includes free shipping,
Then I get 8% back from using live.com search so that was $200.00
Then I will get the 1200.00 trade in from HP
bringing the price down to
$1532.00 I guess you cant beat that.
Can anyone make some paper recommendations?
Steven
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I have a Z3100. It cost $1000 more a year ago. The new Z3200 has to have more improvements - and is cheaper. Sounds like a good deal to me. I like my Z3100. I am not a high volume printer - but I care a lot about print quality. I get what I need from the Z3100. The HP people were helpful to me for my first year - and honored their warranty obligations.
Oh, I see you bought it. Paper recommendations? Way too personal and way too general a question, I think; what are you looking for? be more specific? - In general, I would buy a bunch of variety pacs - sample paper packets, from vendors, and go through them one by one.
Howard Seth Miller
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Don't forget that the current deal also include $300 in free HP paper. This deal sounds tempting but I hear that HP support is absolutely terrible. I've spoken with both Canon and HP pre sales and the Canon reps seem to be much more in tune with the product.
I also had the opportunity to speak with a Z3200 owner and based on their feedback of how dissatisfied they were with this printer I am apprehensive to step forward and purchase one regardless of price.
Their largest complaints were that the profiling solution did not always work optimally with NON HP paper and in fact required manual intervention which defeats the purpose of having the spectro, another complaint was that the paper presets are not selectable within the driver on OS X operating systems and must be manually selected on the machine itself.
Perhaps some Z3200 owners could chime in.
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Don't forget that the current deal also include $300 in free HP paper. This deal sounds tempting but I hear that HP support is absolutely terrible. I've spoken with both Canon and HP pre sales and the Canon reps seem to be much more in tune with the product.
I also had the opportunity to speak with a Z3200 owner and based on their feedback of how dissatisfied they were with this printer I am apprehensive to step forward and purchase one regardless of price.
Their largest complaints were that the profiling solution did not always work optimally with NON HP paper and in fact required manual intervention which defeats the purpose of having the spectro, another complaint was that the paper presets are not selectable within the driver on OS X operating systems and must be manually selected on the machine itself.
Perhaps some Z3200 owners could chime in.
I guess with all printers, epson, canon. and hp talk to enough people and everyone will have a horror story. I am not to concerned about the onboard profiling solution. I can make my own using Moncao Profiler Pro and my old trust spectrolino / scan.
I will check to see if the 300.00 paper thing is still going on.
In the mean time, I am looking for a high quality exhibition photo paper to use with the Z3200. Anyone try HP's Baryte Satin Art Paper or HP Professional Satin Photo Paper?
I also want to order some exrta ink, which colors are used the most?
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I can't see putting too much weight in a buying decision on pre-sales reps of any company. Or based on one dissatisfied customer - though it might be tempting. The HP tech people who actually work with the machines have certainly helped me with my Z3100 when I needed to consult. My spectro Z3100 profiling system works with the non - HP papers I use - I have not had big hassles getting a close match to my monitors - when using Photoshop CS3 soft proofing - and the Z3100 profiles. Will the Canon or Epson get your prints even more perfectly close to your monitor - with less hassle? I have no idea - that would be a good buying point in their favor, if true, of course. But who is informing you? a Sales Rep?
Still, If all these Canon, Epson, HP, printers are somewhat comparable - you might as well go with the one your most relaxed about buying - The choice is not life or death - unless one of these monsters collapses on you - the 24" printer I have is huge, Let alone the 44" one.
What bothers me the most about my printer is the cost of the HP extended warranty - that is my big complaint with the machine so far - (I am past the initial 1 year warranty now)
Howard Seth Miller
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Don't forget that the current deal also include $300 in free HP paper. This deal sounds tempting but I hear that HP support is absolutely terrible. I've spoken with both Canon and HP pre sales and the Canon reps seem to be much more in tune with the product.
I also had the opportunity to speak with a Z3200 owner and based on their feedback of how dissatisfied they were with this printer I am apprehensive to step forward and purchase one regardless of price.
Their largest complaints were that the profiling solution did not always work optimally with NON HP paper and in fact required manual intervention which defeats the purpose of having the spectro, another complaint was that the paper presets are not selectable within the driver on OS X operating systems and must be manually selected on the machine itself.
Perhaps some Z3200 owners could chime in.
Only a lowly 3100 owner, but for my $0/02, HP tech support is often underinformed at the lower levels, but overall better than my experience with Epson. I find the extended warranty to be expensive, but entirely worth it.
As for the profiling not working, I've only had an issue with very glossy highly textured canvas not profiling. I've been pretty happy with APS profiling, which is all I've used. The paper presets are chosen when loading and calibrating a paper on a Mac and are not selected on the printer itself. You tell it what paper you are loading, but do not need to do anything else at the control panel of the printer. I soft proof with my custom profiles in PS, and get very predictable results that almost always match my calibrated monitor. Not sure what your friend is speaking of. Yes, I have some complaints here and there, but I'd leap at the deal mentioned if I was shopping for a 24" printer.
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Their largest complaints were that the profiling solution did not always work optimally with NON HP paper and in fact required manual intervention which defeats the purpose of having the spectro, another complaint was that the paper presets are not selectable within the driver on OS X operating systems and must be manually selected on the machine itself.
Perhaps some Z3200 owners could chime in.
A Z model that didn't work optimally with NON HP papers ........ compared to what optimal solution? one would ask.
There is a Z3100 and a Z3200 here. One can create custom media presets with ink limitation settings, drying time, etc and save them. HP provides documents with recommended media presets for third party papers and documents that describe the ink limitation and ink channels used for the OEM media presets. The new paper + its media preset will be calibrated. 90% of the media can be custom profiled as well. Exceptions are heavy textured media like some canvas qualities. The same qualities that require more attention with manual profile creation applications and hardware due to their surface. To put it short: there is no other manufacturer offering the same solution + cooperation for third party papers. A similar freedom is only possible with a RIP + Profile creation soft- and hardware that is much more expensive and may not do the job as good. There are right now possibly 2 or 3 RIPs + profile creating solutions that can cope with the recent N-channel printers (for all 3: Canon, HO, Epson) to a similar degree the Z model bundle has from the start.
No Macs here but I have not seen a Mac user message with a complaint about the media presets not selectable on the computer system itself. Everything described above is done on the system and then saved on the printer so other systems can synchronise to the new choices available.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
New: Dinkla Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html (http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html)
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Oh man that is a steal. I would go for it in a second. Wish I had money I'd buy one. Read the reports on the Epson Large Format Group about the comments about the new 9900s clogging and wasting ink like mad. None of that here. I have the Z3100 and it works great on a Mac platform. The new media presets like the HP Baryta Satin work very well on third party papers like Innova fiber gloss and Hahnemuhle Photorag Baryta. I use all kinds of third party media like Hahnemuhle, Innova, Crane, Breathing Color Canvas, fabrics, etc. No problem with that here.
john
A Z model that didn't work optimally with NON HP papers ........ compared to what optimal solution? one would ask.
There is a Z3100 and a Z3200 here. One can create custom media presets with ink limitation settings, drying time, etc and save them. HP provides documents with recommended media presets for third party papers and documents that describe the ink limitation and ink channels used for the OEM media presets. The new paper + its media preset will be calibrated. 90% of the media can be custom profiled as well. Exceptions are heavy textured media like some canvas qualities. The same qualities that require more attention with manual profile creation applications and hardware due to their surface. To put it short: there is no other manufacturer offering the same solution + cooperation for third party papers. A similar freedom is only possible with a RIP + Profile creation soft- and hardware that is much more expensive and may not do the job as good. There are right now possibly 2 or 3 RIPs + profile creating solutions that can cope with the recent N-channel printers (for all 3: Canon, HO, Epson) to a similar degree the Z model bundle has from the start.
No Macs here but I have not seen a Mac user message with a complaint about the media presets not selectable on the computer system itself. Everything described above is done on the system and then saved on the printer so other systems can synchronise to the new choices available.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
New: Dinkla Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html (http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html)
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I am still in the marker for a home 24 inch printer and although I would love the new Epson 7900 it's hard not to take a hard look at the Z3200 with it's 1200.00 trade in program right now bringing the cost down to like 1732.00.
Any thoughts?
Get it. You won't regret it. Thousands z3100's sold, and the only complaints are from a tiny percentage you can research here on this forum.
Speaking for myself, I've been printing with a z3100 44" for 2 years. Not one clog. Print jobs are up. Shooting jobs are up. I don't get ANYTHING printed at any lab ever now - customers are much happier and buy more. Most importantly, my fine-art sales of my photographs are up, especially B&W (just got a check from a sale of a 32x40 B&W piece in a juried show). I've seen nothing that touches the z3100's B&W output. Gloss enhancer makes a huge difference, no metamerism.
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I am still in the marker for a home 24 inch printer and although I would love the new Epson 7900 it's hard not to take a hard look at the Z3200 with it's 1200.00 trade in program right now bringing the cost down to like 1732.00.
Any thoughts?
Aloha,
I have just purchased a new Z3100 for $1450.00 with no trade in.
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Thanks for all the replies.
Sounds like I will be happy with my Z3200 when it shows up.
Since I just got the base model no APS. Is it best to use the onboard profiling spectro and software or will I get better results making my own with Monaco Profiler Pro and my old trusty spectrolino/scan setup?
Paper choices....
For printing color photos should I go for Crane Silver Rag or HPs' Baryte Satin Art Paper or HP Professional Satin Photo Paper?
Canvas. I have been running Fredrix 901WR and Fredix 777 is this compatible with the Z3200? What about coating? I have been using eco print shield any problems there??
Thanks
Steven
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Canvas. I have been running Fredrix 901WR and Fredix 777 is this compatible with the Z3200? What about coating? I have been using eco print shield any problems there??
I have been using an HVLP spray gun to apply Matte Eco PrintShield to HP Matte Professional Canvas prints produced with a Z3200 and things seems ok so far except for two things. Firstly the Matte Eco seems to give a very slight sheen compared to the uncoated HP Matte canvas but it is minimal and doesn't worry me. Secondly, I had a nightmare with a defective batch of Matte Eco Printshield supplied by a UK retailer. A large proportion of the contents are sludge but I was told this was normal and the particles would disappear while rolling. When I mentioned that I don't use a roller and I use an HVLP spray gun the supplier told me I was being unreasonable. A refund or replacement has not been forthcoming and so I had to buy another container of Eco Matte from a different supplier in Germany. This time the varnish was particle free and works great with my HVLP.
My Z3200 has been trouble free but I cannot say the same for my Epson 7900 which has been a support nightmare and is clogged almost every time I switch it on. I only bought the 7900 because I have been using a 9600 for about six years with no troubles apart from one or two minor clogs each year. I now realise that past performance counts for nothing and I won't be buying Epson again.
Although I think the HP Z3200 is rather ugly and I am a little doubtful about colour accuracy when profiling third party papers, the results on HP Pro Matte Canvas look great and I am growing to like this machine.
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Thanks for all the replies.
Sounds like I will be happy with my Z3200 when it shows up.
Since I just got the base model no APS. Is it best to use the onboard profiling spectro and software or will I get better results making my own with Monaco Profiler Pro and my old trusty spectrolino/scan setup?
Paper choices....
For printing color photos should I go for Crane Silver Rag or HPs' Baryte Satin Art Paper or HP Professional Satin Photo Paper?
Canvas. I have been running Fredrix 901WR and Fredix 777 is this compatible with the Z3200? What about coating? I have been using eco print shield any problems there??
Thanks
Steven
Paper preference tends to be a matter of personal taste.
At least with my Z3100, I find I cannot top the image quality of HP's professional satin. The surface is very unobtrusive, gamut and D-max excellent, and the weight is adequate. The plastic feel only matters if it's loose in a portfolio box.
Lots of folks love Crane silver rag on the Z3100; personally I just don't like the surface texture.
HP's Baryte satin fine art paper was a huge disappointment for me; the color gamut and texture are quite nice, but I consistently got nasty surface ripples (cockling) on any large print with significant shadow areas. Initially it was a disaster, because the paper buckled so much I was getting head strikes & zebra stripes on the prints. HP to their credit went so far as to modify their paper preset for a lighter ink load almost immediately when I lodged a complaint, and with the newer preset I no longer get head strikes, but the cockling is still objectionable. At least a couple of other folks have had similar experiences. If your prints are mostly high-key it may still work fine for you, but my photos tend to be dark & moody, so it doesn't work at all for me.
I really like several Hahnemuhle papers on the Z3100: photo rag pearl has a lightly textured surface basically identical to HP's baryte, but the paper is heavier so there's no cockling at all. It's the best for color images where red gamut is important. Probably my most-used paper for color.
Photo rag baryta has a better d-max, and its surface is a bit finer, with a fairly unobtrusive fine stipple similar to (but finer than) Epson premium luster's. On the downside, with the Z3100 it is really lacking in red gamut. For your Z3200, this may be much less of a problem. It's my favorite paper for black & white.
Finally, photo rag satin is really different. Color gamut is quite small, d-max nothing to write home about, but the surface takes on a subtle sheen that is quite beautiful for images not requiring neon color for impact. It provides a kind of attractive gloss differential that actually improves tonal separation in shadows.
Hope that helps.
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I guess with all printers, epson, canon. and hp talk to enough people and everyone will have a horror story. I am not to concerned about the onboard profiling solution. I can make my own using Moncao Profiler Pro and my old trust spectrolino / scan.
I will check to see if the 300.00 paper thing is still going on.
In the mean time, I am looking for a high quality exhibition photo paper to use with the Z3200. Anyone try HP's Baryte Satin Art Paper or HP Professional Satin Photo Paper?
I also want to order some exrta ink, which colors are used the most?
- do NOT buy HP baryte Satin art paper- it prints no deep blacks. HP professional satin paper is the best they have - good for colour and BW
( at least try it HP baryte art first before buying a rol as i did- mistake)
colours that are used most: Gloss enhancer( not really a colour) and Light grey ( basic component of all colours)
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Paper choice for fine art is a very personal decision: I like the Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Satin the best - by a long shot. It works best for my particular type of photo work. I wish it was less expensive though... But whaddya gonna do?
Howard Seth Miller
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+1
I also like the HP Pro Satin, and it's a lot cheaper. I love Ilford GFS too, but get pizza wheel marks sometimes at the end of the rolls.
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I have been using an HVLP spray gun to apply Matte Eco PrintShield to HP Matte Professional Canvas prints produced with a Z3200 and things seems ok so far except for two things. Firstly the Matte Eco seems to give a very slight sheen compared to the uncoated HP Matte canvas but it is minimal and doesn't worry me.
To give a canvas good protection and a matte surface without the sheen you better lay down a gloss varnish first and after that a minimal layer of matte varnish on top. That is what I do to avoid a loss of detail etc due to scattering in thicker layers of matte varnish.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
New: Dinkla Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html (http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html)
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To give a canvas good protection and a matte surface without the sheen you better lay down a gloss varnish first and after that a minimal layer of matte varnish on top. That is what I do to avoid a loss of detail etc due to scattering in thicker layers of matte varnish.
How many coats of gloss do you lay down and do you find that satin can also be used as a base for matte Eco?
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How many coats of gloss do you lay down and do you find that satin can also be used as a base for matte Eco?
I usually lay down two coats of gloss and one satin. Where I wrote matte it should be satin. Lascaux acrylic, nr 2060, 2061, water based. It is the old B72 formulae that has been tested long before its use in digital arts. There are UV protected versions too. I never use matte, my error. No, I think that one should only apply satin or matte as a thin layer on top and always gloss as the filling layer.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
New: Dinkla Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html (http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html)
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I highly recommend HP, being a very happy Z3100 owner. First, NO CLOGS! Just leave the 3200 turned on all of the time and it will automatically go through maintenance cycles. Second, excellent print quality. And third, a couple of issues did come up, but they were all solved very quickly by HP. When calling tech support, they initially went overseas. But, as soon as they found out I had a 3100 printer, I was transferred to the US. My tech reps had a 3100 printer in the office so they could look at one while they discussed it with me. Very, very professional service from HP.
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+1
I also like the HP Pro Satin, and it's a lot cheaper. I love Ilford GFS too, but get pizza wheel marks sometimes at the end of the rolls.
Does the HP Pro Satin use the GE?
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Does the HP Pro Satin use the GE?
You can choose on or off.
However I have found that glossy prints look terrible when GE is turned off.
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You can choose on or off.
However I have found that glossy prints look terrible when GE is turned off.
So the HP pro Satin is considered a glossy paper?
How about all the fiber papers like HHahnemuhle Photo Rag Pearl or Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Satin do these also require the ge
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So the HP pro Satin is considered a glossy paper?
How about all the fiber papers like HHahnemuhle Photo Rag Pearl or Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Satin do these also require the ge
It is considered and is a Photo surface. As are the Baryta including some matte surfaces, not at all matte in a traditional sense.
I haven't found any Baryta surfaces nor the very nice HP Pro Satin to not need Gloss Enhancer. The only thing you give up is a somewhat more fragile surface and a very slight magenta coloration at quite oblique angles in certain light. I have found some images that have a lot of near white need GE set to whole page rather than Eco mode. Otherwise you can lower the white point in the image area which will apply ECO mode to only the image area without spraying the margins.
GE works on all photo surfaces so well that there is every reason to use it all the time and few not to. On matte it doesn't do anything even when tricked to be applied.
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I have been comparing some RC prints on my Epson 9600, Epson 7900 and HP Z3200. This is not scientific, just a few observations I have made whilst trying out some papers for a possible print job coming up.
1. HP Pro Satin:
Excellent blacks on Z3200 and 7900 - 7900 very slightlly better.
Smoothest gradations on 7900 (perhaps due to 16 bit).
Obvious GD on both Epsons and also on HP without GE.
Variable micro scratches in all cases with this paper, worst on Z3200.
Micro scratches seem to be reduced on Z3200 with extended drying time.
2. Hahnemuehle Photo Rag Peal:
Poor blacks on Z3200 compared to 1 above.
No micro scratches.
Nicer tactile feel to paper (but so what if it is being framed behind glass?)
3. Ilford Gallery Pearl roll (new version):
Great blacks on Z3200.
No micro scratches.
Tonal gradations not quite as smooth as HP Pro Satin (perhaps this is due to the slight surface texture).
4. Ilford Gallery Gold Fibre Silk:
Great blacks on Z3200.
Nicest finish of the lot except for two things.
The default GE setting still gives GD in the un-printed areas.
Lots of Pizza wheel marks even with extended drying time.
This paper doesn't seem to dry quick enough and this is made worse by the extra thickness.
5. HP Baryte:
Thickest paper of all the above.
No marks whatsover.
But the blacks are not so good.
6. Hahnemuehle Fine Art baryta:
Faint starwheel marks visible with a loupe.
Hahnemuehle supplied preset in default state with starwheels up and paper thickness set to normal.
Blacks are good although the default profile is not revealing as much shadow detail as the Ilford Gold Fibre Silk.
GD in the unprinted areas is still visible and is about the same as the Ilford Gold Fibre Silk.
Of the above papers, I would really like to use the HP Po Satin. However I am a little uncomfortable with providing customers with prints using this paper due to the micro scratches. So I will most likely stay safe and use the Ilford Gallerie Pearl. It is a shame that the Z3200 still has the Pizza wheel problem but as has been said elsewhere it seems to only be a problem with slower drying third party papers. Otherwise the gloss optimiser allows the Z3200 to give better results than the Epsons.
Wouldn't it be nice if one of these companies could get all of these factors right for once?
Update1: Added further papers and comments.
Update2: Added HFA Baryta.
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Kuau - Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Satin - you should not use GE on the Z3100/Z3200. If you do - you will spoil the variable sheen effect - you get in the whiter areas on this special paper.
Howard
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I have been comparing some RC prints on my Epson 9600, Epson 7900 and HP Z3200. This is not scientific, just a few observations I have made whilst trying out some papers for a possible print job coming up.
1. HP Pro Satin:
Excellent blacks on Z3200 and 7900 - 7900 very slightlly better.
Smoothest gradations on 7900 (perhaps due to 16 bit).
Obvious GD on both Epsons and also on HP without GE.
Variable micro scratches in all cases with this paper, worst on Z3200.
Micro scratches seem to be reduced on Z3200 with extended drying time.
2. Hahnemuehle Photo Rag Peal:
Poor blacks on Z3200 compared to 1 above.
No micro scratches.
Nicer tactile feel to paper (but so what if it is being framed behind glass?)
3. Ilford Gallery Pearl roll (new version):
Great blacks on Z3200.
No micro scratches.
Tonal gradations not quite as smooth as HP Pro Satin (perhaps this is due to the slight surface texture).
4. Ilford Gallery Gold Fibre Silk:
Great blacks on Z3200.
Nicest finish of the lot except for one thing.
Lots of Pizza wheel marks even with extended drying time.
This paper doesn't dry quick enough and this is made worse by the extra thickness.
5. HP Baryte:
Thickest paper of all the above.
No marks whatsover.
But blacks not very good.
Of the above papers, I would really like to use the HP Po Satin. However I am a little uncomfortable with providing customers with prints using this paper due to the micro scratches. So I will most likely stay safe and use the Ilford Gallerie Pearl. It is a shame that the Z3200 still has the Pizza wheel problem but as has been said elsewhere it seems to only be a problem with slower drying third party papers. Otherwise the gloss optimiser allows the Z3200 to give better results than the Epsons.
Wouldn't it be nice if one of these companies could get all of these factors right for once?
Update: Added further papers and comments.
I've read that there is a setting that you can raise the wheels when create your own paper profile. Have you tried raising them to the maximum level for the Ilford Gallery Gold paper?
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Yes you can raise the pizza wheels up a notch, but it doesn't eliminate them on some papers including the IGGFS which otherwise is excellent. Extended drying time also has absolutely nothing to do with it, since all that does is hold the paper for 5 min before cutting it. It's already gone through the wheels at that point.
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Yes you can raise the pizza wheels up a notch, but it doesn't eliminate them on some papers including the IGGFS which otherwise is excellent. Extended drying time also has absolutely nothing to do with it, since all that does is hold the paper for 5 min before cutting it. It's already gone through the wheels at that point.
My IGGFs preset already had the wheels raised and indeed this didn't help.
Thanks for the clarification on the drying time.
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I don't understand what you mean - the wheels are a manual control, nothing to do with the presets. Perhaps you are confusing the paper height adjustment of the print heads.
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I don't understand what you mean - the wheels are a manual control, nothing to do with the presets. Perhaps you are confusing the paper height adjustment of the print heads.
My Z3200 Printer Utility allows the following adjustments to the Printing Properties of each individual paper preset:
Paper Thickness: Normal / Thick
Dry Time: None / Reduced / Automatic / Extended
Starwheels: Up / Down
Global Ink Limits: 80 to 120
Gloss Enhancer Amount: 1 to 120
Cutter: On / Off
As supplied, my Z3200 does not have the manual height adjustment that is available with the Z3100 retrofit.
My Ilford GFS preset is set with the starwheels in the Up position and the paper thickness is set to Thick.
However I am still getting the starwheel marks in the dark areas sadly rendering the prints unusable for me.
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I don't understand what you mean - the wheels are a manual control, nothing to do with the presets. Perhaps you are confusing the paper height adjustment of the print heads.
As far as I can judge it with a Z3100 + starwheel upgrade kit and a Z3200 here. The Z3100 has the manual height adjustment added with the upgrade kit but could have an underlying automatic system too that was already available on all the Z3100s, the last not user adjustable. The Z3200 has probably an improved automatic system that doesn't need the extra manual system and is user adjustable with the presets. I was surprised too that the manual adjustment wasn't available on the Z3200 and noticed the difference in the media preset creation menus.
The Global ink limit settings changed too between the models: 80-100% on the Z3100 to 80-120% on the Z3200.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
New: Dinkla Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html (http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html)
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Perhaps if Ilford reformulated the IFGS to be quicker drying then the problem would be solved?
Their reformulated Gallery Pearl has been fine on my Z3200 - no starwheel or other marks at all.
A shame because I prefer the look of the IGFS to the Gallery Pearl.
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So you are saying the Z3200 star wheel adjustment is electric? That's interesting I have never seen that mentioned before.
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So you are saying the Z3200 star wheel adjustment is electric? That's interesting I have never seen that mentioned before.
All I can really report is that the HP Z3200 Printer Utility presets give me the option to raise or lower the starwheels.
I didn't realise that this was new to the Z3200 and I don't know how this actually works in the printer.
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Well, that's what you're assuming. It may simply be a setting for how you have the wheels set - manually. But like I said, if it's indeed electric, it's the first I've heard of it and is pretty cool.
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Mac Z3200 users will, as a rule, not find paper presets in the OEM driver's media selections when printing from Adobe app's. Paper presets will be available when printing from OS apps like Preview, text edit and such. I print from Lightroom, select "Any" as the media type, as this process as I understand it sacrifices nothing so long as the media type is correctly chosen at the hardware front panel.
Thick papers like Hahnemuhle Fine Art Baryta 325 have been prone to handling problems on my 3200, in that they fail to feed at the start of a print. A work around has involved jogging the paper forward 1/4" with manual paper advance. Head strikes have not been a feature on a any paper I've used.
My papers of preference on the Z3200:
1) Hahnemuhle FA Baryta 325, GE on
2) HP Professional satin GE on; very nice print but 2nd rate paper in the hand, in my view. Also prone to dents in larger sizes.
3) Canon BFK Rives GE off, for low-contrast work
4) Hahnemuhle William Turner GE off, for dreamy watercolor textured look
5) Hahnemuhle German Etching GE off, less texture and wider gamut than William Turner
6) Crane Museo Max GE off, for high gamut detailed matte appearance
7) Harman FB Gloss Al GE on, still working out details with this paper which has, thus far, given prints that are too dark in shadow and quarter tone range, but which look very good otherwise and which handle much better than HP Pro Satin, in my experience.
HP USA tech support has, in my experience, been highly flat-footed. They have struck me as:
1) Being completely out of touch with the world of fine art printing
2) Being out of touch with and disinterested in the Mac platform
3) Requiring a very Byzantine process of contacting them for followup discussion on a case already opened.
Others describe different experience with HP tech support. I speak of the Enhanced Tech Support group to which one has access after buying the extended warranty ($1470 in my case).
John Caldwell
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Thick papers like Hahnemuhle Fine Art Baryta 325 have been prone to handling problems on my 3200, in that they fail to feed at the start of a print. A work around has involved jogging the paper forward 1/4" with manual paper advance. Head strikes have not been a feature on a any paper I've used.
How do the HFA Baryta blacks compare with the HP Pro Satin?
And have you noticed any starwheel marks on the HFA Baryta?
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How do the HFA Baryta blacks compare with the HP Pro Satin?
And have you noticed any starwheel marks on the HFA Baryta?
Similar blacks to HP Pro Satin from the Hahnemuhle FA Baryta. For my tastes, though, the 325 feels less like a traditional RC paper so I prefer it on the whole. I have yet to see a starwheel mark on any print on any paper from my Z3200.
John-
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Similar blacks to HP Pro Satin from the Hahnemuhle FA Baryta. For my tastes, though, the 325 feels less like a traditional RC paper so I prefer it on the whole. I have yet to see a starwheel mark on any print on any paper from my Z3200.
John-
Ok, thanks for that. I think I will need to get hold of some HFA Baryta.
Strange as however many different papers I try, I always seem to end up going back to Hahnemuehle.
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Well, that's what you're assuming. It may simply be a setting for how you have the wheels set - manually. But like I said, if it's indeed electric, it's the first I've heard of it and is pretty cool.
On the Wiki Z3100 pages you will find RAR files of the Z3100 service manual. If you do a search "starwheel" in that manual it may bring you to other conclusions. And that was just the Z3100.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/)
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Yes I have had that manual for over ayear, in fact before the new star wheel assembly was created and I was one of the first to test it from HP.
The manual talks about the star wheel lifter - which has nothing to do with what we are discussing. That is for lifting the assembly up out of the way for feeding sheets and alignment. It has two positions, Up/Down (Open/Closed). In the down (Closed) positions there are two manual positions to select from - that is what we are discussing. The only other thing I could see is if the profile for whatever reason is allowing you to keep the whole assembly in the open position- but I have no idea why you would want that.
My conclusions are the same.
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Yes I have had that manual for over ayear, in fact before the new star wheel assembly was created and I was one of the first to test it from HP.
The manual talks about the star wheel lifter - which has nothing to do with what we are discussing. That is for lifting the assembly up out of the way for feeding sheets and alignment. It has two positions, Up/Down (Open/Closed). In the down (Closed) positions there are two manual positions to select from - that is what we are discussing. The only other thing I could see is if the profile for whatever reason is allowing you to keep the whole assembly in the open position- but I have no idea why you would want that.
My conclusions are the same.
With that electric mechanism already available on the Z3100, the manual height adjusters removed again on the Z3200 and the height adjusting choices not greyed out in the Z3200 media preset menu that assumption of a change to automatic height adjustment is not so strange. The choices are up and down only in that menu so it is probably just that what is done, for papers that can cope with the star wheels the starwheel bar stays down during printing and lifts on sheet and roll loading. For papers that can not cope the bar is raised all the time. As there are no longer the black wedges to manually shift in and out it would have no sense to just add the prescription to the media preset. That would make sense on the Z3100 with the starwheel upgrade but on that one the choices are greyed out. If they had implanted the choices on the Z3100, there should have been a message to the user to raise the bar every time he selected the media preset. HP decided to let the Z3200 handle it with the already available mechanism. There's even a small chance that the raising of the bar has now more steps but only two steps made available in the media preset creation.
My conclusion is that the height adjustment has been improved on the Z3200.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/)
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Again, merely an assumption. It may be correct, but since no one has posted anything from HP or pictures of the supposed new mechanism - you can't be sure.
Another alternative is the 3200 mechanism is identical to the first generation 3100, and they simply did not include any manual adjustment on the assembly. Maybe it didn't work as designed - I know it didn't alleviate all the marks on my papers. It's better in some cases, but they are certainly still there in others.
Is your printer a 3100 or 3200?
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Again, merely an assumption. It may be correct, but since no one has posted anything from HP or pictures of the supposed new mechanism - you can't be sure.
Another alternative is the 3200 mechanism is identical to the first generation 3100, and they simply did not include any manual adjustment on the assembly. Maybe it didn't work as designed - I know it didn't alleviate all the marks on my papers. It's better in some cases, but they are certainly still there in others.
Is your printer a 3100 or 3200?
Both are here, that makes it easier to compare and it doesn't look like HP did forget the parts, it changed the way to do it.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
New: Dinkla Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html (http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html)
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Can you take pictures of both mechanisms so we can see the differences? Raise and lower the assembly to see what exactly it's doing?
I didn't say they forgot anything. You said the 3200 does not have the manual adjustment - so they were designed out. The question is, did they design in a replacement electric mechanism for them, or simply revert to the first design?
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Similar blacks to HP Pro Satin from the Hahnemuhle FA Baryta. For my tastes, though, the 325 feels less like a traditional RC paper so I prefer it on the whole. I have yet to see a starwheel mark on any print on any paper from my Z3200.
John-
I had a rummage in my cupboard found a couple of blank A4 sheets of HFA Baryta.
I used the first sheet to calibrate and the second sheet for my test image.
Using a loupe I found faint starwheel traces.
I used the Hahnemuehle supplied preset and used it in its default state which was with the starwheels up and the paper thickness set to normal. I wonder if setting the paper thickness to thick would fix the starwheel markings. The blacks are good although the default profile is not revealing as much shadow detail as the Ilford Gold Fibre Silk. GD in the unprinted areas is still visible and is about the same as the Ilford Gold Fibre Silk.
I am now wondering how the Hahnemuehle Photorag Baryta performs but I don't think I have any samples.
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I received my Z3200 2 weeks ago, and so far it is a wonderful printer. One thing I love is the gloss enhancer, as well as the calibration / ink limiting step when creating a new paper preset for a 3rd party paper. Very nice system, and the out of the box profiles must be better than the 3100 because they aren't too bad. My 1728 patch iO scanning table is making better profiles, but it is also a much more expensive solution.
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Mac Z3200 users will, as a rule, not find paper presets in the OEM driver's media selections when printing from Adobe app's. Paper presets will be available when printing from OS apps like Preview, text edit and such. I print from Lightroom, select "Any" as the media type, as this process as I understand it sacrifices nothing so long as the media type is correctly chosen at the hardware front panel.
Thick papers like Hahnemuhle Fine Art Baryta 325 have been prone to handling problems on my 3200, in that they fail to feed at the start of a print. A work around has involved jogging the paper forward 1/4" with manual paper advance. Head strikes have not been a feature on a any paper I've used.
My papers of preference on the Z3200:
1) Hahnemuhle FA Baryta 325, GE on
2) HP Professional satin GE on; very nice print but 2nd rate paper in the hand, in my view. Also prone to dents in larger sizes.
3) Canon BFK Rives GE off, for low-contrast work
4) Hahnemuhle William Turner GE off, for dreamy watercolor textured look
5) Hahnemuhle German Etching GE off, less texture and wider gamut than William Turner
6) Crane Museo Max GE off, for high gamut detailed matte appearance
7) Harman FB Gloss Al GE on, still working out details with this paper which has, thus far, given prints that are too dark in shadow and quarter tone range, but which look very good otherwise and which handle much better than HP Pro Satin, in my experience.
HP USA tech support has, in my experience, been highly flat-footed. They have struck me as:
1) Being completely out of touch with the world of fine art printing
2) Being out of touch with and disinterested in the Mac platform
3) Requiring a very Byzantine process of contacting them for followup discussion on a case already opened.
Others describe different experience with HP tech support. I speak of the Enhanced Tech Support group to which one has access after buying the extended warranty ($1470 in my case).
John Caldwell
John is Hahnemuhle FA Baryta 325 the same paper as HP's Baryta paper?
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Kuau - Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Satin - you should not use GE on the Z3100/Z3200. If you do - you will spoil the variable sheen effect - you get in the whiter areas on this special paper.
Howard
Howard what paper preset should I use before I profile this paper?
Steven
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Howard what paper preset should I use before I profile this paper?
Steven
Have you tried the Hahnemuehle presets for this paper?
If you visit the profile page you will find presets for the Z3100 and the Z3200...
http://www.hahnemuehle.com/ (http://www.hahnemuehle.com/)
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John is Hahnemuhle FA Baryta 325 the same paper as HP's Baryta paper?
I doubt it as the results look different to my eyes.
The HFA blacks are deeper.
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John is Hahnemuhle FA Baryta 325 the same paper as HP's Baryta paper?
No, but I can't say that HFA doesn't make the HP branded Baryta for HP. The look and feel pretty different, and I prefer the HFA FA Baryta - with the caveat that I prepare myself for paper mis-feed by first using the Paper>Manual Feed> Manually Advance Paper front panel dialog to advance and verify paper traction before printing.
I never used a loupe to detect starwheel marks on my Z3200 prints, so when I say marks are not there I refer only to what my unaided eye can see.
In creating a Paper Preset for HFA Baryta 325 I used HP Baryta Paper as the starting point, if I recall correctly, and made no change in default values regulating ink limits, GE, thickness or SW position.
Thus far the only instance in which I trialed reducing ink limits was when profiling the Harman FB Gloss. My motive was to deal with output which seemed color-accurate, but which blocked the quarter tones heavily. In ink limit of -94, rather than the default 100 value, but using the same Photo Baryta Paper starting point, helped but traded one problem for another by reducing gamut and contrast above halftone ranges. I wish I had more expertise and getting the best out of the self-profiling features of my base model Z3200 for 3rd party media than I do.
John-
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I doubt it as the results look different to my eyes.
The HFA blacks are deeper.
Thanks for the info.
I print mostly color lanscape stuff, I know this is all personal choice but what paper would you use?
Steven
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Thanks for the info.
I print mostly color lanscape stuff, I know this is all personal choice but what paper would you use?
Steven
I am still searching for my ideal Z3200 / paper combination but these are my thoughts at the moment.
On the Z3200 I might play it safe with Ilford Gallerie Pearl because it gives good blacks, no scratches and is a very good price compared to the Baryta papers.
However I prefer the extra weight of the Baryta papers if only I could find one that gives good blacks and doesn't mark easily. Perhaps the Photorag Baryta will be the answer but I haven't tried it yet.
For Epson I would probably use Ilford Gold Fibre Silk as there are no issues with marks or starwheels.
The catch is the gloss differential which may be ok for personal use but perhaps not ok for exhibition.
I also like Hanemuehle Photorag Ultrasmooth matte prints on the HP or the Epson and my clients love these combinations too.
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I doubt it as the results look different to my eyes.
The HFA blacks are deeper.
Not even close. I really like the Hahnemuhle papers , especially Photo Baryta , but I'm not particularly thrilled with HP Baryta. While H Baryta sings a good song, tells a story in a way you want to listen into, HP Baryta is off key and the voice is not convincing, nor telling as interesting of a scene.
Not sure about the blacks being so different though....
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So any complaints about this printer? One more day to go to take advantage of special pricing, I'm still on the fence about this. Someone push me over the edge and remind me I won't ever be able to get a printer like this for the price again
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No complaints so far! The fan noise is a bit loud on the 3200, and it doesn't turn off when it is in sleep mode. Other than that I really cannot think of something that is a show stopper. Cut sheets are a challenge, especially the smaller ones.
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So any complaints about this printer? One more day to go to take advantage of special pricing, I'm still on the fence about this. Someone push me over the edge and remind me I won't ever be able to get a printer like this for the price again
Starwheel marks mean that my choice of RC papers is limited.
I also think the Z3200 is ugly.
Otherwise, no complaints (so unlike my Epson 7900).
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Starwheel marks mean that my choice of RC papers is limited.
I also think the Z3200 is ugly.
Otherwise, no complaints (so unlike my Epson 7900).
If I was worried about how my my computer equipment looked I would have purchased a Mac and for good reason I didn't
So you prefer this printer to your 7900?
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Any comments on HP Hahnemühle Smooth Fine Art Paper? I am eligible for $300 in paper, Pro Satin and Pro Matte Canvas are already on the list, any other recommendations?
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Any comments on HP Hahnemühle Smooth Fine Art Paper? I am eligible for $300 in paper, Pro Satin and Pro Matte Canvas are already on the list, any other recommendations?
HP Smooth Fine art is HP's version of Photo Rag. It gives a better results than the Photo Rag on my Z3100. It is my paper of choice for all my matte paper needs.
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If I was worried about how my my computer equipment looked I would have purchased a Mac and for good reason I didn't
So you prefer this printer to your 7900?
The Z3200 is my first HP after using Epsons since the SP 7000.
It is too soon for me to declare which machine I prefer but the HP is impressing me a lot.
I prefer the canvas results from the HP.
I prefer the GD free RC prints on the HP (even if the choice of starwheel free media is limited).
I haven't had a chance to properly test matte prints on the HP but when I get some spare time that will be next.
If the matte prints are as good as the ESP 7900 then I will have a hard time justifying keeping my Epson printers.
(Hmm, I wonder if ebay is a good way of selling LF printers.)
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The Z3200 is my first HP after using Epsons since the SP 7000.
It is too soon for me to declare which machine I prefer but the HP is impressing me a lot.
I prefer the canvas results from the HP.
I prefer the GD free RC prints on the HP (even if the choice of starwheel free media is limited).
I haven't had a chance to properly test matte prints on the HP but when I get some spare time that will be next.
If the matte prints are as good as the ESP 7900 then I will have a hard time justifying keeping my Epson printers.
(Hmm, I wonder if ebay is a good way of selling LF printers.)
Actually I don't think you can get much better on matte than the 3200. Easily on par with every other printer. B&W on the 3200 though requires profiles, as the print with grey inks only just doesn't work . Ernst Dinkla says the Roy Harrington grey step wedges help to build a better linearisation with grey scale and the Z printers.
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Actually I don't think you can get much better on matte than the 3200. Easily on par with every other printer. B&W on the 3200 though requires profiles, as the print with grey inks only just doesn't work . Ernst Dinkla says the Roy Harrington grey step wedges help to build a better linearisation with grey scale and the Z printers.
This is very topical for me as I am working on some B&W prints at the moment.
I have read the B&W workflow used by Ernst:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/lo...php/t28046.html (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/lofiversion/index.php/t28046.html)
Ernst seems to be using Qimage but what about a Mac Photoshop B&W workflow?
And why is Ernst assigning the gamma 2.2 profile to the image?
What is your recommended B&W workflow for the Z3200?
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Well after having my printer now for a week now, I am really liking it.My only complaint so far is paper loading and having to go behind the machine and load the rolls.
I think what HP should do with there next firmware is when you load paper. the display on the printer should flip around so you can read it from behind, Just an idea.
Another thing I concluded, is though it is nice being able to profile the priner with HP APS software, very easy to use, since I already own Monaco Profiler Pro and a Spectrolino / Scan
which of course is way slower and not as easy. I think I am going to sell the APS software. I am going to post it now in the Buy/Sell forum if anyone is interested. I got a really good deal on it.
Steven
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Well after having my printer now for a week now, I am really liking it.My only complaint so far is paper loading and having to go behind the machine and load the rolls.
I think what HP should do with there next firmware is when you load paper. the display on the printer should flip around so you can read it from behind, Just an idea.
Another thing I concluded, is though it is nice being able to profile the priner with HP APS software, very easy to use, since I already own Monaco Profiler Pro and a Spectrolino / Scan
which of course is way slower and not as easy. I think I am going to sell the APS software. I am going to post it now in the Buy/Sell forum if anyone is interested. I got a really good deal on it.
Steven
They certainly didn't design the printer for our needs as far as paper loading goes. Even the roll diameter change adapters are poorly designed. Yet you do get used to it and can load rolls quickly after time.
I only load from the front as I don't have space to move the printer around. Doable, some acrobatics involved but again with practise you get used to it and it becomes more efficient in the end.
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I am liking the printer more and more. Canvas output is great. I think better then my older Canon IPF8000/8100 I have been using Fredrix 777 canvas and Premiere Eco Print shield Gloss coating and so far so good. I did some non scientific profile comparisons using color think, and comparing the Fredrix 777 canvas from my canon IPF 8100 and the Z3200, Z3200 color gamut is bigger. Very nice. I am also ordering a roll of Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Baryta just comparing all the "canned" profile this paper has the largest color gamut. Hope it works well for my color landscape photos.
Steven
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Any comments on HP Hahnemühle Smooth Fine Art Paper? I am eligible for $300 in paper, Pro Satin and Pro Matte Canvas are already on the list, any other recommendations?
Take a look at HP Litho Matte, my favorite matte paper.