Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Colour Management => Topic started by: OpticalMedia on April 09, 2009, 06:12:57 pm
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I have just profiled my Cinema Display using the Gretag Macbeth Eye One Display 2. I have setup/customized my color settings in CS4 to run ROMM-RGB (which I read is the alias for ProphotoRGB. Can someone confirm this for me, as I cannot find the option to make use of ProphotoRGB besides in Camera Raw). I apply global editing to RAW images in Camera raw and open directly into CS4. The image looks great. I do a few more basic tweaks to get it just right. Now let’s say I want to use the image as my background image or save it as a JPEG to show a friend what I do is I resize the image appropriately and convert the profile to sRGB and save it as a JPEG to my desktop.
Problem is the image now looks mildly desaturated/washed out - both as a background picture or when simply viewed in Windows picture and fax viewer. It also seems more noticeable in the reds but I stress it is very mild. I know my computer is using my new profile settings as it comes up in the list under Cs4 settings and under color management in the control panel.
What could be the issue>?
On the other hand if I use the native sRGB profile that my computer originally uses then color in cs4 and everywhere else is Identical! So could someone shed some light here?
What could the rub be?!
Thanks
Michael S
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sRGB is the best approximation of the "average" monitor. But even sRGB images will look different in a colour-managed program than a non-colour-managed viewer. Nothing you can do about it, I'm afraid - it's just the way it is.
When you consider how terrible your photos will look when Joe Public peruses your website on his uncalibrated nuclear-bright cheapy monitor, your little problem seems totally insignificant
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sRGB is the best approximation of the "average" monitor. But even sRGB images will look different in a colour-managed program than a non-colour-managed viewer. Nothing you can do about it, I'm afraid - it's just the way it is.
When you consider how terrible your photos will look when Joe Public peruses your website on his uncalibrated nuclear-bright cheapy monitor, your little problem seems totally insignificant
Are you sure about that? there is nothing I can do ? Why when the monitor profile is set to the default sRGB does everything look identical? surely my custom created profile would achieve the same thing but with greater accuracy?
So perhaps I should only activate my Calibrated profile when I Know I am going to print the image>? and use the default profile for general use?
What you think? or anybody for that matter
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I have just profiled my Cinema Display using the Gretag Macbeth Eye One Display 2. I have setup/customized my color settings in CS4 to run ROMM-RGB (which I read is the alias for ProphotoRGB. Can someone confirm this for me, as I cannot find the option to make use of ProphotoRGB besides in Camera Raw). I apply global editing to RAW images in Camera raw and open directly into CS4. The image looks great. I do a few more basic tweaks to get it just right. Now let’s say I want to use the image as my background image or save it as a JPEG to show a friend what I do is I resize the image appropriately and convert the profile to sRGB and save it as a JPEG to my desktop.
Problem is the image now looks mildly desaturated/washed out - both as a background picture or when simply viewed in Windows picture and fax viewer. It also seems more noticeable in the reds but I stress it is very mild. I know my computer is using my new profile settings as it comes up in the list under Cs4 settings and under color management in the control panel.
What could be the issue>?
Michael S
I don't know the gamut of your Cinema Display, but since it is regarded as a high quality display, I assume that its gamut is greater than that of sRGB. If your original capture in ProPhotoRGB (ROMM-RGB) contains colors outside of the sRGB gamut, then these colors will be clipped during the conversion and the resulting picture will have less saturation.
I had assumed that Windows Picture and Fax Viewer was not color managed, but a simple experiment demonstrated that this is not the case. Shown below is a screen capture of an image in ProPhotoRGB viewed with Internet Explorer 7 (which is not color managed) and with Firefox 3 and Photoshop CS4, which are color managed. The view in IE7 is markedly desaturated due to lack of color management. The Windows and Fax Viewer image appears fine, indicating that this application must be color managed.
My Photoshop is set up to use the Adobe color management module (ACE). Photoshop can also use the Microsoft ICM. I don't know what module Firefox and the Picture and fax viewer use, but different color management modules could make a slight difference.
[attachment=12902:ScreenComposite.jpg]
This is a screen capture of soft proofing in Photoshop with the destination space set to sRGB. The gray areas show colors in the picture which are out of the sRGB gamut. These will be clipped when converting from ProPhotoRGB to sRGB. Whether or not the clipping will be visible on one's monitor depends on the gamut of the monitor. If the monitor is not capable of displaying colors beyond the gamut of sRGB, then there will be no difference.
[attachment=12903:ProofCap.jpg]
Bill
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Are you sure about that? there is nothing I can do ? Why when the monitor profile is set to the default sRGB does everything look identical?
There's nothing you can do indeed!
Setting the display to "sRGB" is NOT a fix. You have to profile and calibrate it, then you have to view images in ICC aware applications as do all users outside your specific system. Your browsers are not ICC aware like Photoshop. Photoshop IS correct, everyone else not handling the data this way is wrong.
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Your browsers are not ICC aware like Photoshop. Photoshop IS correct, everyone else not handling the data this way is wrong.
The OP did not mention what browser he was using--in fact, he didn't even mention browsers. As I demonstrated in a previous post, Firefox 3 is color managed as is Safari. Whether one is using the Mac, Windows, or Linux, color managed browsers are readily available.
Bill
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The OP did not mention what browser he was using--in fact, he didn't even mention browsers. As I demonstrated in a previous post, Firefox 3 is color managed as is Safari. Whether one is using the Mac, Windows, or Linux, color managed browsers are readily available.
IF he were using an ICC aware browser, the images would match. And you can substitute browser (Windows picture and fax viewer) for any application here. ICC aware applications behave correctly like Photoshop, images match.
FireFox is only color managed with the latest versions and you have to turn it on (a very non intuitive process).
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I have just profiled my Cinema Display using the Gretag Macbeth Eye One Display 2. I have setup/customized my color settings in CS4 to run ROMM-RGB (which I read is the alias for ProphotoRGB. Can someone confirm this for me, as I cannot find the option to make use of ProphotoRGB besides in Camera Raw). I apply global editing to RAW images in Camera raw and open directly into CS4. The image looks great. I do a few more basic tweaks to get it just right. Now let’s say I want to use the image as my background image or save it as a JPEG to show a friend what I do is I resize the image appropriately and convert the profile to sRGB and save it as a JPEG to my desktop.
Problem is the image now looks mildly desaturated/washed out - both as a background picture or when simply viewed in Windows picture and fax viewer. It also seems more noticeable in the reds but I stress it is very mild. I know my computer is using my new profile settings as it comes up in the list under Cs4 settings and under color management in the control panel.
What could be the issue>?
On the other hand if I use the native sRGB profile that my computer originally uses then color in cs4 and everywhere else is Identical! So could someone shed some light here?
What could the rub be?!
Thanks
Michael S
I thought ROMM-RGB was the original name for ProPhotoRGB - I haven't actually seen a profile labeled that for some time. Theoretically I believe they should be identical but I suppose to make sure you could download ProPhotoRGB and install it. I'm surprised it's not there. Here is one place to download it .. http://www.dodgecolor.com/downloads.html (http://www.dodgecolor.com/downloads.html)
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FireFox is only color managed with the latest versions and you have to turn it on (a very non intuitive process).
The process may be not be intuitive, but Rob Galbraith (http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/content_page.asp?cid=7-9311-9478) gives clear instructions and there is an add-on (https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/6891) that automates the process.
The ICC Web Site (http://www.color.org/version4html.xalter) has a a page to see if everything is working.
Here are the results for IE 7 and Firefox 3. The former is not color managed and the latter is color managed and Ver 4 enabled.
[attachment=12925:v4ready.png]
Bill
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I thought ROMM-RGB was the original name for ProPhotoRGB - I haven't actually seen a profile labeled that for some time. Theoretically I believe they should be identical but I suppose to make sure you could download ProPhotoRGB and install it. I'm surprised it's not there. Here is one place to download it .. http://www.dodgecolor.com/downloads.html (http://www.dodgecolor.com/downloads.html)
ProPhotoRGB should come with Photoshop. As I understand the situation, Kodak devised ProPhotoRGB and termed it ROMM RGB. They also devised a RIMM RGB. The former was used for rendered images and the latter for scene referred images.
The ICC has apparently released Version 4 updates to these profiles. See This Site. (http://www.color.org/scene-referred.xalter). I'm not certain what the advantages of the new profiles are. Perhaps it is time for the DigitalDog to update his color management book or at least comment on the changes.
Bill
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I have just profiled my Cinema Display using the Gretag Macbeth Eye One Display 2. I have setup/customized my color settings in CS4 to run ROMM-RGB (which I read is the alias for ProphotoRGB. Can someone confirm this for me, as I cannot find the option to make use of ProphotoRGB besides in Camera Raw). I apply global editing to RAW images in Camera raw and open directly into CS4. The image looks great. I do a few more basic tweaks to get it just right. Now let’s say I want to use the image as my background image or save it as a JPEG to show a friend what I do is I resize the image appropriately and convert the profile to sRGB and save it as a JPEG to my desktop.
Problem is the image now looks mildly desaturated/washed out - both as a background picture or when simply viewed in Windows picture and fax viewer. It also seems more noticeable in the reds but I stress it is very mild. I know my computer is using my new profile settings as it comes up in the list under Cs4 settings and under color management in the control panel.
What could be the issue>?
On the other hand if I use the native sRGB profile that my computer originally uses then color in cs4 and everywhere else is Identical! So could someone shed some light here?
What could the rub be?!
Thanks
Michael S
1- Apple Cinema Display is NOT a wide gamut display! It CAN'T accurately display wider gamut working spaces than sRGB, so you can't depend on what you see on screen for your adjustments in wide gamut workspace.
2- I don't know anything about Windows picture and fax viewer, are they even color space aware or are they color space dumb like explorer?
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2- I don't know anything about Windows picture and fax viewer, are they even color space aware or are they color space dumb like explorer?
See above (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?s=&showtopic=33718&view=findpost&p=275427)
Bill
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Perhaps it is time for the DigitalDog to update his color management book.
The likelihood of that happening is nill...
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1- Apple Cinema Display is NOT a wide gamut display! It CAN'T accurately display wider gamut working spaces than sRGB, so you can't depend on what you see on screen for your adjustments in wide gamut workspace.
Doesn't this miss the very point of color management? You aren't seeing the actual colors using either monitor ... in both cases they are being displayed through the monitor profile. While one has a smaller gamut, it will still attempt to display the relationship of the colors and density of the file. While it may not be as effective, the ability to literally see the actual image color doesn't make it non functional, or even that inaccurate-you aren't seeing those colors anyway.
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ProPhotoRGB should come with Photoshop. As I understand the situation, Kodak devised ProPhotoRGB and termed it ROMM RGB. They also devised a RIMM RGB. The former was used for rendered images and the latter for scene referred images.
The ICC has apparently released Version 4 updates to these profiles. See This Site. (http://www.color.org/scene-referred.xalter). I'm not certain what the advantages of the new profiles are. Perhaps it is time for the DigitalDog to update his color management book or at least comment on the changes.
Bill
Bill, the perceptual intent of the v4 profiles contain a non-linear rendering tone curve, the one listed in ISO 22028-3. This means if you assign the profile to a scene-referred image you will see an output-referred image rendered using this tone curve. Of course, in practice, this is not much different than the default non-linear tone curve in Camera Raw. It's just that in one case it's built into an ICC profile, whereas in another case it's built into the raw processing software.
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Doesn't this miss the very point of color management? You aren't seeing the actual colors using either monitor ... in both cases they are being displayed through the monitor profile. While one has a smaller gamut, it will still attempt to display the relationship of the colors and density of the file. While it may not be as effective, the ability to literally see the actual image color doesn't make it non functional, or even that inaccurate-you aren't seeing those colors anyway.
It is a big problem with this monitor when one forgets to convert/shoot their files to sRGB before processing if one intends to print them.
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Bill, the perceptual intent of the v4 profiles contain a non-linear rendering tone curve, the one listed in ISO 22028-3. This means if you assign the profile to a scene-referred image you will see an output-referred image rendered using this tone curve. Of course, in practice, this is not much different than the default non-linear tone curve in Camera Raw. It's just that in one case it's built into an ICC profile, whereas in another case it's built into the raw processing software.
Eric,
Thanks for the reply, but now I am even more confused. If one has a scene referred image (presumably with defined colorimetry, such as linear_RIMM-RBG) and wants an output referred image with perceptual rendering, it would seem to me that one should convert the image to the destination profile using the perceptual rendering option rather than assigning the profile. Of course, the problem with matrix profiles is that perceptual rendering is not available. In their paper on creating scene-referred images using Photoshop CS3 and ACR, the ICC (http://www.color.org/scene-referred.xalter) suggests that one could convert to an output-referred space using sRGB_v4_ICC_preference.icc or a similar profile.
This would make sense for converting to sRGB for the web or other purposes. For my work, scene-referred images are not usually necessary and I render into 16 bit ProPhotoRGB as my general working space and try perceptual rendering in the printer profile if the saturated colors are blocked up. For preparation of sRGB images from wide gamut scenes that would clip in sRGB, wouldn't the process be easier with ACR if it supported rendering into ISO2208-2_ROM-RGB.icc (which I understand is the ICC Ver 4 equivalent of ProPhotoRGB), and then converting to the ver 4 of sRGB with perceptual rendering? Or can one merely assign the ISO2208-2_ROM-RGB.icc profile to the ProPhotoRGB image?
I realize that perceptual rendering is relatively crude with current dumb conversion engines which do not take the image content into account and that manual editing can often produce better results in reducing the gamut, but perceptual rendering is worth a try if one has a large number of non-critical images to process.
Bill
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If one has a scene referred image (presumably with defined colorimetry, such as linear_RIMM-RBG) and wants an output referred image with perceptual rendering, it would seem to me that one should convert the image to the destination profile using the perceptual rendering option rather than assigning the profile.
Nope. I have a very old linear (scene referred) DCS image I use to illustrate that proper assignment is necessary in color managed workflows. Untagged, using the assumption in Photoshop (say Adobe RGB (1998)), it looks very dark. Assign the proper profile, it looks just fine, the numbers don't change a lick. Its not dark, it looks dark due to an improper TRC in the incorrect assigned profile. The profile I assign is a custom camera profile which of course provide "correct" tone due to its TRC and the image it is properly assigned to.
From this point, convert into another working space if so desired and use Perceptual assuming a V4 profile is available.
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Nope. I have a very old linear (scene referred) DCS image I use to illustrate that proper assignment is necessary in color managed workflows. Untagged, using the assumption in Photoshop (say Adobe RGB (1998)), it looks very dark. Assign the proper profile, it looks just fine, the numbers don't change a lick. Its not dark, it looks dark due to an improper TRC in the incorrect assigned profile. The profile I assign is a custom camera profile which of course provide "correct" tone due to its TRC and the image it is properly assigned to.
From this point, convert into another working space if so desired and use Perceptual assuming a V4 profile is available.
DigitalDog,
I would suggest that you re-read what I said. In my hypothetical example, I started out with an scene referred image that was properly tagged with its profile, in this case linear_RIMM-RBG_V4.icc. If my color management is working properly, the image colors appear normal--it does not appear dark in a a color managed application such as Photoshop, but would appear dark with a non-color managed application. I want an output referred image with an sRGB tone curve and chromaticities and want to use perceptual rendering, since the original image did not fit into sRGB. If I assign the profile sRGB_v4_ICC_preference.icc, the image appears very dark since the numbers have not changed but a gamma of about 2.2 is assumed. To get an image that appears normal and functions as intended, it is necessary to convert to the sRGB_v4_ICC_preference.icc profile with perceptual rendering. The numbers change and the image then looks normal. The ICC Paper (http://www.color.org/scene-referred.xalter) Creating scene-referred images using Photoshop CS3 explains the process. See paragraph 11b in that document or do an experiment. I did the experiment and confirmed the above behavior.
In your case, you started with a scene referred image with no attached profile. Of course it didn't look right. If you assign the proper profile, it looks fine. The numbers do not change, but they are interpreted properly.
Bill.
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I want an output referred image with an sRGB tone curve and chromaticities and want to use perceptual rendering, since the original image did not fit into sRGB.
Can't have it as sRGB is output referred. You have scene referred data. Now the bit about using a perceptual rendering is possible if you have the proper V4 profiles.
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Can't have it as sRGB is output referred. You have scene referred data. Now the bit about using a perceptual rendering is possible if you have the proper V4 profiles.
nonsense!
Quoted verbatim from the ICC Web Site (http://www.color.org/scene-referred.xalter):
11. To convert the scene-referred image to output-referred in the future, there are two options:
a. Convert to the desired working space using the relative colorimetric rendering intent and perform the color rendering manually. In this case the starting point will be the scene-referred colorimetry estimates.
b. Convert to an output-referred color encoding using the perceptual rendering intent, using for example the ISO22028-2_ROMM-RGB.icc, AdobeRGB1998.icc, or sRGB_v4_ICC_preference.icc profiles and edit the result as desired.
Furthermore, I tried it and it works. Rather than stonewalling, why don't you face reality?
Bill
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OF COURSE you can convert scene referred to output referred! We do that every day.
You said "I want an output referred image with an sRGB tone curve ". Well its not output referred if you did that. So what exactly do you want?
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OF COURSE you can convert scene referred to output referred! We do that every day.
You said "I want an output referred image with an sRGB tone curve ". Well its not output referred if you did that. So what exactly do you want?
Just as I stated. I want to convert from a scene referred image to an output referred image and use perceptual rendering. Assignment is not the proper action, and you have not commented on this. As you stated in message 20 in this thread, sRGB is output referred and it most certainly uses the sRGB tone curve. I don't get your point at all, but see no reason to continue the discussion, which gives me a feeling of déjà vu regarding the color space of raw files.
Bill
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Just as I stated. I want to convert from a scene referred image to an output referred image and use perceptual rendering.
As I said, that's easy as long as you have the necessary V4 profiles to do so. What you actually said is in print: You stated "I want an output referred image with an sRGB tone curve ".
The idea that somehow, a perceptual intent is going to solve all your problems, just like the idea that any specific intent is ideal in all cases doesn't wash. But you can do it, nothing at all special or unique here.
And yes, the discussion is over.
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I don't know the gamut of your Cinema Display, but since it is regarded as a high quality display, I assume that its gamut is greater than that of sRGB. If your original capture in ProPhotoRGB (ROMM-RGB) contains colors outside of the sRGB gamut, then these colors will be clipped during the conversion and the resulting picture will have less saturation.
I had assumed that Windows Picture and Fax Viewer was not color managed, but a simple experiment demonstrated that this is not the case. Shown below is a screen capture of an image in ProPhotoRGB viewed with Internet Explorer 7 (which is not color managed) and with Firefox 3 and Photoshop CS4, which are color managed. The view in IE7 is markedly desaturated due to lack of color management. The Windows and Fax Viewer image appears fine, indicating that this application must be color managed.
My Photoshop is set up to use the Adobe color management module (ACE). Photoshop can also use the Microsoft ICM. I don't know what module Firefox and the Picture and fax viewer use, but different color management modules could make a slight difference.
[attachment=12902:ScreenComposite.jpg]
This is a screen capture of soft proofing in Photoshop with the destination space set to sRGB. The gray areas show colors in the picture which are out of the sRGB gamut. These will be clipped when converting from ProPhotoRGB to sRGB. Whether or not the clipping will be visible on one's monitor depends on the gamut of the monitor. If the monitor is not capable of displaying colors beyond the gamut of sRGB, then there will be no difference.
[attachment=12903:ProofCap.jpg]
Bill
Hi bill,
Thanks for your response. Your example illustrates what I used to have on my computer when I had CS3 with my calibrated monitor. But I am still having issues with colour differences between CS4 and windows picture and Fax viewer. I thought I'd post up an example two examples here. The strange thing is when i set my default monitor profile to sRGB the colour differences between cs4 and windows picture and fax viewer dissapear. Digital dogs says this is not a fix and I know this. But being as cs4 and windows picture and fax viewer are both colour managed why is it that the colours are different when im using a dedicated monitor profile??
thanks
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Hi bill,
Thanks for your response. Your example illustrates what I used to have on my computer when I had CS3 with my calibrated monitor. But I am still having issues with colour differences between CS4 and windows picture and Fax viewer. I thought I'd post up an example two examples here. The strange thing is when i set my default monitor profile to sRGB the colour differences between cs4 and windows picture and fax viewer dissapear. Digital dogs says this is not a fix and I know this. But being as cs4 and windows picture and fax viewer are both colour managed why is it that the colours are different when im using a dedicated monitor profile??
thanks
If you have gone to the trouble of profiling your monitor, you definitely don't want to set the windows default monitor profile to sRGB, even though it does remove the differences you noted. Windows and Fax Viewer is color managed to some extent as I showed by opening files in various color spaces--they look reasonably good on the monitor. This shows that Windows and Fax Viewer does read the profile attached to an image and displays it accordingly. Of course, proper color management requires that both the source and destination be displayed using profiles. Photoshop definitely uses the monitor profile when displaying images, but perhaps the Windows Viewer simply assumes output to sRGB. This would explain the behavior you noted.
Why do you want to use Windows Viewer in the first place? For JPEGs TIFFs, etc one can set the default software that opens the image. If you don't want to open Photoshop merely to view a JPEG, why don't you try setting the default to another viewer such as Irfanview? It is freeware, loads fast and has many options. Also, do you see these differences with other color managed programs such as Firefox?
Bill
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If you have gone to the trouble of profiling your monitor, you definitely don't want to set the windows default monitor profile to sRGB, even though it does remove the differences you noted. Windows and Fax Viewer is color managed to some extent as I showed by opening files in various color spaces--they look reasonably good on the monitor. This shows that Windows and Fax Viewer does read the profile attached to an image and displays it accordingly. Of course, proper color management requires that both the source and destination be displayed using profiles. Photoshop definitely uses the monitor profile when displaying images, but perhaps the Windows Viewer simply assumes output to sRGB. This would explain the behavior you noted.
Why do you want to use Windows Viewer in the first place? For JPEGs TIFFs, etc one can set the default software that opens the image. If you don't want to open Photoshop merely to view a JPEG, why don't you try setting the default to another viewer such as Irfanview? It is freeware, loads fast and has many options. Also, do you see these differences with other color managed programs such as Firefox?
Bill
I like windows picture and fax viewer because it opens quick and allows for slideshow view on the fly! Im sure I could do the same with irfanview. Also I often like to display my images as my background on my desktop so either way the colour problem is still the core issue here. In your example the images in CS4 and windows viewer looked identical. I used to be able to get this consistent colour so I think their is something wrong somewhere along the line. Dont you agree? the example i posted can you see what im talking about? Im looking at your example and the images looked Identical! How can i achieve this consistency>?
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Could somebody please get back to me on my final question/post/reply.....
Would really like to get to the bottem of this problem
thanking you in advance